Luck in relation to religion.

[Stanislaw]

I was confronted with an interesting fact at work today: I consider myself to be a non-religious person, grounded very much in the present. However, I have always performed small personal 'rituals' I consider 'lucky'. Luck is not something I believe as being able to be influenced upon, but rather more of a fatalistic approach (whatever will happen, will happen).

A coworker noticed me toss a penny into an open hole on our construction site (something I have done at every Job I am on). I started doing this as a token nod to history (perhaps someone in the future will find my 'old' coin and feel some connection to the past... kind of geeky, I know), but it has sort of developed into a 'lucky' coin kind of thing. My coworkers thoughts were that perhaps I have developed an almost religious notion, perhaps even subconsciously, around this notion of building up luck to ward of an unfavorable outcome. In a way I suppose he is correct, I do use the coin toss as a way to push away an misgivings I may have, and to focus my mind on task.

So, I was wondering if practicing a 'lucky' ritual could be considered a religious practice, even if I understand that my actions do not have any effect on the outcome of the day.

[Serena03]

It is not necessarily religious, unless you have a certain devotion towards it, but it may at least be superstitious if you believe the 'luck' will have a sort of mystical force on conducive outcomes. Really it's all just a state of probability from the ratio of tosses, but many will tend to see what looks more appealing to them.

[Gladys]

The word religious, I believe, pertains to God or a deity. Is yours, by any chance, mammon?



Luke 16:13____No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Panglossian]

http://www.uncommondescent.com/images/Mammon.jpg

[Lokasenna]

Of course, these things transcend religious divisions. I know plenty of Christians, Jews and Muslims who all 'touch wood' for luck. Very few of them are aware that it is an old pagan practice invoking the divine protection of Mother Earth, but even those who are aware still do it.

I'm not really a believer in luck. Sure, there are the everyday happenstances which may or may not occur, but in the long run I believe life is what you make of it.

I've been in three serious car crashes - which for someone aged 23 is pretty heavy going - and I emerged from every one completely uninjured apart from a few bruises. Everyone always remarks how lucky I must be, and my usual response is that if I was lucky I wouldn't have been in a car crash in the first place...

I think people generally see luck where they want to...

[Stanislaw]

The word religious, I believe, pertains to God or a deity. Is your's, by any chance, mammon?

I actually haven't heard of mammon until today :)





It is not necessarily religious, unless you have a certain devotion towards it, but it may at least be superstitious if you believe the 'luck' will have a sort of mystical force on conducive outcomes. Really it's all just a state of probability from the ratio of tosses, but many will tend to see what looks more appealing to them.

as an aside: I quite like the pic in your avatar! It's a nice choice.

back on topic: After sleeping on it, I think what I was getting at is can superstition be it's own devotional belief system without actually working at believing its life changing potential, in a similar fashion to religious devotion... much like the cult of mao, or the 'secular religion of communism'.

When I get to work today, and drive out to the new job site, I'll probably toss a penny down an open hole on site, but I was wondering where one draws the line between tradition and superstitious belief?

[Calidore]

The art of believing without believing. Very Bruce Lee. :-)

[papayahed]

as an aside: I quite like the pic in your avatar! It's a nice choice.

back on topic: After sleeping on it, I think what I was getting at is can superstition be it's own devotional belief system without actually working at believing its life changing potential, in a similar fashion to religious devotion... much like the cult of mao, or the 'secular religion of communism'.

When I get to work today, and drive out to the new job site, I'll probably toss a penny down an open hole on site, but I was wondering where one draws the line between tradition and superstitious belief?

Would you go out of your way to toss the penny?

I have a few quirks, during our annual shutdown if the first day goes well I have to wear the same makeup the rest of the shutdown. It's a thing but if I ran out of that specific eyeliner I'd use a different one and go about my day. However, whenever I go on a plane I have to have my Grandmother's rosary with me. I haven't been without it yet but it may be a show stopper if I don't have it one day.

[MystyrMystyry]

Superstition isn't religion

I know plenty who follow sport 'religiously', but far from their team always winning it's usually the opposite

I think in the case of Loki's example, three non-fatal accidents may be construed as a miracle, but for there to be miracles there must also be anti-miracles - just ask Juniper about getting hit by buses

Stanislaw's personal ritual may bring luck, but it's untested - it may bring bad luck to someone else (wings of a butterfly causing storms, Chaos Theory stuff) - highly unlikely, probably improbable - but some subscribe to it

By all means keep tossing pennies and carrying rabbits feet if it makes you happy, just don't depend on it I reckon

Even though I have a lucky penny in my pocket, the only luck it's ever brought is when I find it after I'm convinced I've lost it (the penny)

[JuniperWoolf]

Superstition is the basis of witchcraft (old-school witchcraft, not modern "neo-pagan" stuff). Without any diety involved, burying a bottle filled with broken glass and urine in your front yard repels unwanted visitors or washing your front step with basil-infused water attracts money. It sounds like throwing a coin in a hole for good luck could be classified in the same way. It's an action that you undertake to bring about (or avoid) a certain outcome without any notion of a god involved (because the involvement of a god would make it a religion).


I think in the case of Loki's example, three non-fatal accidents may be construed as a miracle, but for there to be miracles there must also be anti-miracles - just ask Juniper about getting hit by buses

Yeah, Loki's right. His not being in three car crashes and my not being hit by three buses would be more lucky than surviving said potentially fatal accidents.

[irishpixieb]

Unless you seriously think that the coin will bring you luck, it is not religious per se.

[Jack of Hearts]

Remember reading an abstract from The New England Journal of Medicine that measured the affect of prayer on patients in post-op recovery. Some patients were prayed for, and some patients weren't. No significant statistic (and how do you measure if the control group 'cheated' or not? Wouldn't it be unethical to not pray for someone to heal? Digression)...

But the psychological comfort of it is another matter. There's a concept of 'unanswered prayers'- you know, you didn't get what you wanted/affect something and it was a blessing in disguise.

If you feel amiss because you don't throw your coin in, or if the act of throwing it does something for your person, it may not be semantically the same as a religious ritual, but they're both poking at the same greater goal in this reader's opinion: comfort.

Two different means toward the same goal in such an instance.






J



EDIT: Loving the Edward Hopper, irish.

[Arrowni]

Really it's all just a state of probability

Huh, the concept of "state of probability" is more or less fictional, probability is just speculation and speculation doesn't happen without a watcher.

[Stanislaw]

Would you go out of your way to toss the penny?

I have a few quirks, during our annual shutdown if the first day goes well I have to wear the same makeup the rest of the shutdown. It's a thing but if I ran out of that specific eyeliner I'd use a different one and go about my day. However, whenever I go on a plane I have to have my Grandmother's rosary with me. I haven't been without it yet but it may be a show stopper if I don't have it one day.

I understand the feeling completely. It's something I always do, but, If I don't do it, will I miss it? Hard to say as I always do toss the coin ;)


Remember reading an abstract from The New England Journal of Medicine that measured the affect of prayer on patients in post-op recovery. Some patients were prayed for, and some patients weren't. No significant statistic (and how do you measure if the control group 'cheated' or not? Wouldn't it be unethical to not pray for someone to heal? Digression)...

But the psychological comfort of it is another matter. There's a concept of 'unanswered prayers'- you know, you didn't get what you wanted/affect something and it was a blessing in disguise.

If you feel amiss because you don't throw your coin in, or if the act of throwing it does something for your person, it may not be semantically the same as a religious ritual, but they're both poking at the same greater goal in this reader's opinion: comfort.

Two different means toward the same goal in such an instance.






J



EDIT: Loving the Edward Hopper, irish.

I think that is perhaps what my coworker was getting at. It's a ritual performed that brings me some level of comfort, and I think he was looking at it as filling a gap for me.


It's hard to define the line between tradition and superstition... and perhaps even dedicated belief.

[Nightshade]

I've been thinking recently about the link between superstition and religion. I have found that I am naturally rather superstitious, I am also religious ( I hate that word but it's less pompous than Believer). I've been wondering if one is in someday linked to the other.
Mind my main superstition is curtsey of Disney. If I have a nightmare I have to tell someone about it, because if you tell it it won't come true. I know its nonsense I still need to do it though to get back to sleep. :rolleyes:

[Varenne Rodin]

I think the biggest correlation between religion and superstition is that these are often compulsive behaviors, habits. For the participants, these are easy activities, part of a routine, they cause some amount of pleasant feeling (or fend off unpleasant feeling).

Superstition isn't religion, but religion is sometimes superstitious.

[The Atheist]

So, I was wondering if practicing a 'lucky' ritual could be considered a religious practice, even if I understand that my actions do not have any effect on the outcome of the day.

It isn't religious, but it is the same type of thinking - that an unidentifiable force outside of physical laws exist.

The concept seems to be what drove Tommy Aquinas to write the Summa Theologica; to me, he appears to take it for granted that everyone believes in something non-material, so he sets out to show that it's the christian god.

It's also pretty well established (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion#Evolved_characteristic_of_th e_human_brain)that the same frontal lobes in the brain are active during both religious and superstitious thinking.


....I was wondering where one draws the line between tradition and superstitious belief?

When you think it's going to make a difference.

:D

I think you could also do a reality check by looking at what other people do. If it's a widespread practice like wearing a kilt, it's tradition. If it involves wearing the same pair of unwashed rugby socks all season, it's superstition.

How about walking under ladders? A superstition born of common sense. If there's a bloke with a hammer at the top of the ladder and he drops it, it's not going to fall outside the base.


I know plenty who follow sport 'religiously',...

Although you don't get quite as many fights after a church service, there are quite a few similarities between sport & religion.


Remember reading an abstract from The New England Journal of Medicine that measured the affect of prayer on patients in post-op recovery. Some patients were prayed for, and some patients weren't. No significant statistic (and how do you measure if the control group 'cheated' or not? Wouldn't it be unethical to not pray for someone to heal? Digression)...

Just for the sake of correctness, those things are built in by the prayer sayers not being given the names of people who aren't being prayed for.

Of course, there is always the defence that so many prayers are being said for the sick that the scientific studies would make no difference anyway.


Huh, the concept of "state of probability" is more or less fictional, probability is just speculation and speculation doesn't happen without a watcher.

You what?

Probability is a simple mathematical exercise. Saying probability is fictional is like saying oxygen is fictional.

[Stanislaw]

The research regarding the frontal lobes does prove interesting. It would appear people are designed with a drive to form a belief system, perhaps even as a simple sanity saving coping mechanism. (a means by which stress can be reduced, and a better level of focus can be achieved.)

Perhaps superstition and the practice of superstitious traditions is a naturally selected trait.

Well, at least I am not crazy. :D

[Arrowni]

You what?

Probability is a simple mathematical exercise. Saying probability is fictional is like saying oxygen is fictional.

Maths are like language, you can apply them to reality, but that doesn't make them a "real thing". I can say an elephant is blue, but that doesn't make it any bluer, I can describe the universe with a probabilistic approach but that doesn't make air turn into gold spontaneously.

There is no such thing as "state of probability", that's just a misinterpretation of a mathematical concept applied on reality. That's fictional enough for me.

[The Atheist]

Maths are like language, you can apply them to reality, but that doesn't make them a "real thing".

No, mathematics is nothing like language. Language changes and grows - it is fluid; mathematics is constant and unchangeable. Despite my friend Eric Blair's insistence, 2 + 2 will always equal 4, throughout the entire universe.


I can say an elephant is blue, but that doesn't make it any bluer, I can describe the universe with a probabilistic approach but that doesn't make air turn into gold spontaneously.

I have no idea what that mish-mash of failed metphors is even supposed to mean. Maths doesn't use colours.



There is no such thing as "state of probability", that's just a misinterpretation of a mathematical concept applied on reality. That's fictional enough for me.

Fictional? How many choices are there in a coin toss? What is the probability of each side showing?

Mathematics is reality.