Reading and Introversion

[tonywalt]

Would you say that Reading has improved your social life (i.e. the opposite sex or same sex, if you like)? I can honestly say it does not.

I get much more attraction from girls for being funny(in a mindless bar banter way) and playing down intellect. This has always been the case, thank god I am athletic! I get a helluva alot more interest for being a jock or if I am perceived to be a leader (read ALPHA).

I am not lodging a huge complaint, I like who I am and would not change me.

And before you good people say "not all girls/people are like that", I have to stop you in your tracks. I would say 99% of the girls I am attracted to (yes, I am human and it's a blend of looks, personality, character) do not fall in the well read/intellectual category that makes up most of this forum. It's just the god's honest truth. Yes, they do watch TV and read magazines, but the same bubble gum rubbish/reality tv rubbish that the "sheeple" watch/read nowadays.

In summary, it's damn hard find the 1 percent and then finding someone within that one percent who you get along with. Cant say I've ever met someone like that. I have had good practical relationships, but it was complimentary.

Do you want a conversation killer? Just say "Tolstoy" or mention anything to do with "good books" while in a pub/party/social setting. And sorry, we all can't live in intellectual centers, most of us have to live in very conventional areas, with dreadfully conventional people.

I know I am not the only one out there with similiar frustrations. Thank god I was a line backer in high school, otherwise, well...

[Propter W.]

Well, I never really saw reading as some sort of social device, in fact, I like to read because then I don't need to interact with people.

But you're right. You're probably not the only one, so maybe one day you'll meet a beautiful cheerleader who loves to read. Books, that is.

[tonywalt]

Proper,

Social interaction is a necessity. I don't think anyone would actively choose that path, unless they had no choice.

HHmm, cheerleaders. I would bet my front teeth that there are no more than 3 cheerleaders in this entire forum.

[Buh4Bee]

What a conundrum you have there being a smart jock. In case you have no sense of humor, that is a joke. Many people on here probably play solitary sports like hiking, skiing, and chess, not team sports.

I have a friend who is wicked smart, but she is not a reader. Her husband is, however. They can talk about his books, because she gets it. He lectures, she listens and then they talk. It's a cute way for him to share and a good way for her to exercise her intellectual prowess. She is good looking and even likes to hike- hahaha! No cheerleader in that house.

All I can say is don't dumb yourself down, if you are trying to find the right one. Good luck!

[iamnobody]

Tonywalt, you say 99% of the girls you are attracted to don't fall into the intellectual catagory. Then you complain that they are not intellectuals. Maybe you should reevaluate the things you find attractive.

[YesNo]

Would you say that Reading has improved your social life (i.e. the opposite sex or same sex, if you like)? I can honestly say it does not.

I get much more attraction from girls for being funny(in a mindless bar banter way) and playing down intellect. This has always been the case, thank god I am athletic! I get a helluva alot more interest for being a jock or if I am perceived to be a leader (read ALPHA).

I am not lodging a huge complaint, I like who I am and would not change me.

And before you good people say "not all girls/people are like that", I have to stop you in your tracks. I would say 99% of the girls I am attracted to (yes, I am human and it's a blend of looks, personality, character) do not fall in the well read/intellectual category that makes up most of this forum. It's just the god's honest truth. Yes, they do watch TV and read magazines, but the same bubble gum rubbish/reality tv rubbish that the "sheeple" watch/read nowadays.

In summary, it's damn hard find the 1 percent and then finding someone within that one percent who you get along with. Cant say I've ever met someone like that. I have had good practical relationships, but it was complimentary.

Do you want a conversation killer? Just say "Tolstoy" or mention anything to do with "good books" while in a pub/party/social setting. And sorry, we all can't live in intellectual centers, most of us have to live in very conventional areas, with dreadfully conventional people.

I know I am not the only one out there with similiar frustrations. Thank god I was a line backer in high school, otherwise, well...
Men play down their intellects by being funny. Women do the same thing by giggling at the guy's humor. Neither men or women are as stupid as they want others to think they are. Both are saying the same thing: it is safe to be around me. I don't bite.

Unfortunately both men and women do in fact bite at the those closest to them. I suspect the fundamental challenge of relationships, even those that are non-sexual, is to learn how never to bite.

I also think being an alpha male is like being a beauty queen. It is a show and it takes some work to generate the image. The alpha male tells the female that he can take care of the family. The beauty queen tells the male that she will likely have children to take care of.

After saying all that, I do agree with you that I wouldn't want to listen to the normal conversations that literary types would likely have about Tolstoy. (Unless it were interesting. :) )

[tonywalt]

What a conundrum you have there being a smart jock. In case you have no sense of humor, that is a joke. Many people on here probably play solitary sports like hiking, skiing, and chess, not team sports.

I have a friend who is wicked smart, but she is not a reader. Her husband is, however. They can talk about his books, because she gets it. He lectures, she listens and then they talk. It's a cute way for him to share and a good way for her to exercise her intellectual prowess. She is good looking and even likes to hike- hahaha! No cheerleader in that house.

All I can say is don't dumb yourself down, if you are trying to find the right one. Good luck!

I have had a similiar long term relationship. She did listen and tried to discuss books, current events etc..but then she would watch reality TV. That has been my experience.

I know, beyond any doubt, there are others out there who have to be isolated in many crowds. If we all say collectively that it's OK then fine, just thought someone would have conflicting thoughts.

[Alexander III]

Maybe you are just stuck in a dull place. AT my university everyone would know who Tolstoy is and many girls would have read him. Discussions about politics , philosophy, business and literature are quite standard, and the majority of the girls are beautiful and great fun.

[Scheherazade]

Tonywalt, you say 99% of the girls you are attracted to don't fall into the intellectual catagory. Then you complain that they are not intellectuals. Maybe you should reevaluate the things you find attractive.I think this is a good point of view.

Having said that, I find reading is a great way to make friends... I am just careful about the kind of books I discuss with certain people... And there are times when I glaze over when certain people talk about certain books.

[hillwalker]

Reading doesn't necessarily have to be a solo activity - reading groups thrive in many places (and generally the male/female ratio is about 20/80 so there's enough opportunity to meet 'intellectual' ladies).

But in my experience, telling 'intellectual' women that you write (assuming that you do, of course, in particular poetry) and they're queueing up to swoon at your feet.

H

[Scheherazade]

If I can be perfectly honest here, when a guy tells you that he writes (poetry or prose), they usually do so in the hope that you will be impressed and swoon.

And, god forbid, if you are not!

:p

[tonywalt]

I live in the Cayman Islands. I can honestly say that I have virtually never met women that I was attracted to and had discussions about politics , philosophy, business and literature with them.

My experience has has been that beautiful women very rarely discuss the above matters. Perhaps business, the other three - that's a very rare find.

There are exceptions, of course, but they are quite rare.

I supposed what I am doing is going to get me a certain amount of backlash, as I am expressing a frustration. I wouldn't spend time writing on this thread if the frustrating reality was, well, a very real one.

I do no mean to sound negative, just letting off a bit of steam.

[Drkshadow03]

Would you say that Reading has improved your social life (i.e. the opposite sex or same sex, if you like)? I can honestly say it does not.

I get much more attraction from girls for being funny(in a mindless bar banter way) and playing down intellect. This has always been the case, thank god I am athletic! I get a helluva alot more interest for being a jock or if I am perceived to be a leader (read ALPHA).

I am not lodging a huge complaint, I like who I am and would not change me.

And before you good people say "not all girls/people are like that", I have to stop you in your tracks. I would say 99% of the girls I am attracted to (yes, I am human and it's a blend of looks, personality, character) do not fall in the well read/intellectual category that makes up most of this forum. It's just the god's honest truth. Yes, they do watch TV and read magazines, but the same bubble gum rubbish/reality tv rubbish that the "sheeple" watch/read nowadays.

In summary, it's damn hard find the 1 percent and then finding someone within that one percent who you get along with. Cant say I've ever met someone like that. I have had good practical relationships, but it was complimentary.

Do you want a conversation killer? Just say "Tolstoy" or mention anything to do with "good books" while in a pub/party/social setting. And sorry, we all can't live in intellectual centers, most of us have to live in very conventional areas, with dreadfully conventional people.

I know I am not the only one out there with similiar frustrations. Thank god I was a line backer in high school, otherwise, well...

I've actually met quite a few attractive women who were interested in literature. You find them in English classes.

[tonywalt]

I've actually met quite a few attractive women who were interested in literature. You find them in English classes.

I think on a typical Friday I go to a wine bar or pub, there's quite alot of women, but again very few that would join this site. I actually know women who are in book clubs, but the men they date and are attracted to are NOT in book clubs.

Here's my point. At my Rugby Club, I can meet alot of women, and yes they do 'go' for intelligence. But if you are seen as too articulate (but not intellectually aloof) or god forbid 'bookish' it is a turnoff.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I find that as I get to know women, their personalities begin to overshadow their potential physical unattractiveness.

[Scheherazade]

My experience has has been that beautiful women very rarely discuss the above matters. Perhaps business, the other three - that's a very rare find.
I find that as I get to know women, their personalities begin to overshadow their potential physical unattractiveness.Can't decide which one gets the cookie...

Maybe we should have a vote!

:p

[JuniperWoolf]

You're in highschool, do you even know many intellectuals (female or otherwise)? Get to university where grades are a blood sport and the hot chick beside you would stab you in the face for an A on a science report. Intelligence as a value to women is on a sharp incline, check out the stats in recent years on female enrolement in difficult post-secondary programs (especially medicine and law). Then take a walk around your nearest university and if you don't find any girls there who you find attractive than there's probably something wrong with your eyes.

By the way, just so that you're informed, girls love guys who read long, difficult books. The brooding intellectual is a magnet, trust me. You ever watch one of those "Twilight" movies? I used to work at a video store, guess the archetype for the main male character that made the series a psychotic obsession and which almost every person in the world has heard about - the brooding intellectual. The "Hamlet" type, the tortured poet, is way more popular with females than the dumb jock (a cliche which is berated by pretty much every single girl that I have ever met).

[iamnobody]

Juniper's right. I would like to add that you're not doing yourself any favors by "dumbing-down". How are all those women who are looking for an intelligent, well-read, well-rounded man supposed to know thy're looking for YOU? Shame on you.

[Alexander III]

You're in highschool, do you even know many intellectuals (female or otherwise)? Get to university where grades are a blood sport and the hot chick beside you would stab you in the face for an A on a science report. Intelligence as a value to women is on a sharp incline, check out the stats in recent years on female enrolement in difficult post-secondary programs (especially medicine and law). Then take a walk around your nearest university and if you don't find any girls there who you find attractive than there's probably something wrong with your eyes.

By the way, just so that you're informed, girls love guys who read long, difficult books. The brooding intellectual is a magnet, trust me. You ever watch one of those "Twilight" movies? I used to work at a video store, guess the archetype for the main male character that made the series a psychotic obsession and which almost every person in the world has heard about - the brooding intellectual. The "Hamlet" type, the tortured poet, is way more popular with females than the dumb jock (a cliche which is berated by pretty much every single girl that I have ever met).

Yea she is completely right, the perfect archetype of a man for women is a Byron. The dumb jock is the perfect archetype of a BOY for women - as in once you get out of high-school the dumb jock is just not attractive. It is rather dull. And in private high-schools the dumb jock thing doesn't work. I think the dumb jock only works in small town high-schools.

what is a Byron you ask?

-Wealth (very important, PC would have us believe it doesn't matter. It matters, a lot)

- Handsomeness (needless to say)

- Nonchalance (if this doesn't come naturally, it is hard to pull of, as most times it seems affected and thus becomes ridiculous)

- Egotism (now this done as an extreme becomes ridiculous, but done well it is essential, one must think himself to be Adonis and DaVinchi all in one package; BUT never in a bragish way, always think it never say it.)

- Rebelliousness and Individuality

- Fashion Style (A subtle fashion style I should say, it must look effortless and it's 50% clothes and 50% internal grace. Moderation is key here, if you overdo it you look gay(an obvious turn-off for women) - the Wealth thing helps in this department)

- Misunderstood ( always appear somewhat of a mystery, but do it with elegance, done with elegance one looks good, done without elegance and one looks socially awkward)

-Witty (requires little explanation)



If a man has all these qualities he can get any woman he want, if he has half or more he will be great, if he has less than a 1/3 of these, he is screwed, or rather he will be not be screwed...

[Emil Miller]

If a man has all these qualities he can get any woman he want, if he has half or more he will be great, if he has less than a 1/3 of these, he is screwed, or rather he will be not be screwed...

So that's where I've been going wrong!

[Buh4Bee]

Handsome, really? I prefer a good mind and I can't care what the guy looks like. Looks aren't always important.

Living in the Cayman's must be the other problem. How can you meet someone when you live in such a small place? I took my honeymoon there.

[tonywalt]

Handsome, really? I prefer a good mind and I can't care what the guy looks like. Looks aren't always important.

Living in the Cayman's must be the other problem. How can you meet someone when you live in such a small place? I took my honeymoon there.

I was born here and my family goes back to the 17th century here.

Why would you ask me how can I live in the country that I am from?

[Buh4Bee]

My point is that you are trying to meet someone and the Cayman's are very small. No, you wouldn't leave a place where you live.

[tonywalt]

It is pretty small and certainly not a university town that people keep suggesting. We have only a tiny community college.

I was only trying to find if there was anybody else out there who had trouble meeting women (i'm in my thirties) of a like mind.

The response has been that overwhelmingly women are very attracted to guys into literature (and let's face it intellectual leaning). This is news to me, even when I lived in US and England I never found that to be generally true outside of academic institutions(where very few of us live, and not me).

But, otherwise I love living here, just that one minor point about the island. And perhaps the same goes for any small town or community.

My personal experience has been that women are are attracted to Tony the athete 1000 times more than Tony the Reader. And those are sort of separate, you know, lives. I am flabbergasted that no one has not experienced the same.

When I say athlete, I do not mean 'dumb jock' just athletic. When I played American football in high school and college(small college, division 4) the girls in general were massively and openly attracted to the football players.

I am not saying they didnt'/dont like guys who are smart, or well read, or intellectual, or could write poetry, or were articulate. I am only saying that the primary attraction was the football (club).

I understand that there are exceptions, especially on a literature forum. I am not speaking about the exception to the general rule, but rather the general rule of thumb.

[Delta40]

I think a woman wants a man who can lift heavy things and read a book....

[Paulclem]

It is pretty small and certainly not a university town that people keep suggesting. We have only a tiny community college.

I was only trying to find if there was anybody else out there who had trouble meeting women (i'm in my thirties) of a like mind.

The response has been that overwhelmingly women are very attracted to guys into literature (and let's face it intellectual leaning). This is news to me, even when I lived in US and England I never found that to be generally true outside of academic institutions(where very few of us live, and not me).

But, otherwise I love living here, just that one minor point about the island. And perhaps the same goes for any small town or community.

My personal experience has been that women are are attracted to Tony the athete 1000 times more than Tony the Reader. And those are sort of separate, you know, lives. I am flabbergasted that no one has not experienced the same.

When I say athlete, I do not mean 'dumb jock' just athletic. When I played American football in high school and college(small college, division 4) the girls in general were massively and openly attracted to the football players.

I am not saying they didnt'/dont like guys who are smart, or well read, or intellectual, or could write poetry, or were articulate. I am only saying that the primary attraction was the football (club).

I understand that there are exceptions, especially on a literature forum. I am not speaking about the exception to the general rule, but rather the general rule of thumb.

Looks first, books later. :lol:

[Vonny]

Yea she is completely right, the perfect archetype of a man for women is a Byron. The dumb jock is the perfect archetype of a BOY for women - as in once you get out of high-school the dumb jock is just not attractive. It is rather dull. And in private high-schools the dumb jock thing doesn't work. I think the dumb jock only works in small town high-schools.

what is a Byron you ask?

-Wealth (very important, PC would have us believe it doesn't matter. It matters, a lot)

- Handsomeness (needless to say)

- Nonchalance (if this doesn't come naturally, it is hard to pull of, as most times it seems affected and thus becomes ridiculous)

- Egotism (now this done as an extreme becomes ridiculous, but done well it is essential, one must think himself to be Adonis and DaVinchi all in one package; BUT never in a bragish way, always think it never say it.)

- Rebelliousness and Individuality

- Fashion Style (A subtle fashion style I should say, it must look effortless and it's 50% clothes and 50% internal grace. Moderation is key here, if you overdo it you look gay(an obvious turn-off for women) - the Wealth thing helps in this department)

- Misunderstood ( always appear somewhat of a mystery, but do it with elegance, done with elegance one looks good, done without elegance and one looks socially awkward)

-Witty (requires little explanation)



If a man has all these qualities he can get any woman he want, if he has half or more he will be great, if he has less than a 1/3 of these, he is screwed, or rather he will be not be screwed...


I don't know about these things so much.

He needs to be:


A nice man.


I've avoided men all of my life, and I think the reason is that my father was violent, and my brothers can have temper flares and road rage.


So he has to be a nice man.

[JuniperWoolf]

When I say athlete, I do not mean 'dumb jock' just athletic. When I played American football in high school and college(small college, division 4) the girls in general were massively and openly attracted to the football players.

I am not saying they didnt'/dont like guys who are smart, or well read, or intellectual, or could write poetry, or were articulate. I am only saying that the primary attraction was the football (club).

*yawn* Boooooring... nope, you're incorrect sir. If you want proof, I'll just go ahead and direct you once again to mainstream film and the characters that women drool over. They aren't smelly, spoiled, empty-headed, two-dimentional "athletes," I can tell you that.

[Emmy Castrol]

what is a Byron you ask?

-Wealth (very important, PC would have us believe it doesn't matter. It matters, a lot)

- Handsomeness (needless to say)

- Nonchalance (if this doesn't come naturally, it is hard to pull of, as most times it seems affected and thus becomes ridiculous)

- Egotism (now this done as an extreme becomes ridiculous, but done well it is essential, one must think himself to be Adonis and DaVinchi all in one package; BUT never in a bragish way, always think it never say it.)

- Rebelliousness and Individuality

- Fashion Style (A subtle fashion style I should say, it must look effortless and it's 50% clothes and 50% internal grace. Moderation is key here, if you overdo it you look gay(an obvious turn-off for women) - the Wealth thing helps in this department)

- Misunderstood ( always appear somewhat of a mystery, but do it with elegance, done with elegance one looks good, done without elegance and one looks socially awkward)

-Witty (requires little explanation)



If a man has all these qualities he can get any woman he want, if he has half or more he will be great, if he has less than a 1/3 of these, he is screwed, or rather he will be not be screwed...

The above are very superficial qualities, and being a woman myself, I have to say that no, women do not require these qualities in a man, not unless she's a gold digger or extreme socialite and gold diggers get the disapproval even of other women.

In fact, intelligence in a man can be a rather superficial quality, depending on how the intelligence is measured. I am not going to measure a man's intelligence on the fact that he is a reader but rather the judgements he makes based on what he has read. I've yet to come across another person with the same taste in literature as myself and even the slightest difference in taste is enough to make me question how compatible they are to me. My husband is not an avid reader, his preferred artistic form is music. But when I discuss literature with him, he understands and when he discusses music with me, I understand, even if I am not a musically inclined person at all.

For men wanting the 'intelligent woman' type, be careful of the Hermione Roddices' (D.H. Lawrence - Women in love), who can discuss literature with you to your heart's content but is empty inside because she is too busy acting out the 'intelligent woman' part.

Strangely enough, I know three gorgeous, intelligent women who are single and often complain to me that they can't find a decent man... so from their point of view, where are all you decent men hiding?? And no, they don't want a jock or silent broody type, they just want a nice guy (with good looks - hey, if you want a good-looking girl, then you've got to expect that she might want a good-looking man - only reasonable ;)).

[Buh4Bee]

I think a woman wants a man who can lift heavy things and read a book....

And look good while doing the lifting and reading the book too.

:lol::lol::lol:

I guess living in Paradise has its downfalls. :banghead:

[tonywalt]

*yawn* Boooooring... nope, you're incorrect sir. If you want proof, I'll just go ahead and direct you once again to mainstream film and the characters that women drool over. They aren't smelly, spoiled, empty-headed, two-dimentional "athletes," I can tell you that.

Professional athletes the world over invariably have beautiful partners whether they be wives or girlfriends. Superficial, of course, reality-absolutely. They have women chasing them left, right and center. Almost to the degree of rock stars. Plllllleeeease dont give me the superficial argument or any politically correct nonsense.

I am athletic and do not fill any of these stereotypes, so your incorrect.

The way things are and the way you would like things to be are invariably very very different.

[Emmy Castrol]

The male characters in mainstream film and television I have found most attractive have been:

- Leonardo Di Caprio's portrayal of Romeo in Romeo + Juliet (sooo romantic and sensitive)
- Jared Leto's 'Jordan Catalano' in My So-Called Life (the himbo musician who has a hidden, deeper side)
- Joseph Fiennes as the Earl of Exeter (I think???) in Elizabeth (sooo freaking sexy)

Seeeeee... none of these characters are jocks or athletes

[billl]

I've only breezed over this discussion, but I think that the fact that we are talking about the Cayman Islands mght have something to do with this--I think a lot of people tony might be meeting could be there as tourists, or in some connection to banking or business. And these tourists might sometimes go to Prague or whatever, but I think a lot of them might be into the scuba-diving, and the expensive beach resort stuff. Like, culture and artistic exploration are maybe not the big draws to that environment.

This is just stereotyping, of course, and I hesitate to post. Anyone who grew up there would probably know a lot of things (and people) that were more intellectually stimulating than the touristy/offshore-banking scene I'm wondering about.

[Buh4Bee]

That is what I was also thinking, but didn't want to insult Tony. There is a lot of skin showing in a beach community. Maybe this somehow limits the people you have access too.
I can imagine by the thirties you are starting to want to settle down. My brother in law just turned forty and he is pretty serious about meeting some one.

Well, good luck, I'm sure you will find your way.

[OrphanPip]

-Wealth (very important, PC would have us believe it doesn't matter. It matters, a lot)

- Handsomeness (needless to say)

- Nonchalance (if this doesn't come naturally, it is hard to pull of, as most times it seems affected and thus becomes ridiculous)

- Egotism (now this done as an extreme becomes ridiculous, but done well it is essential, one must think himself to be Adonis and DaVinchi all in one package; BUT never in a bragish way, always think it never say it.)

- Rebelliousness and Individuality

- Fashion Style (A subtle fashion style I should say, it must look effortless and it's 50% clothes and 50% internal grace. Moderation is key here, if you overdo it you look gay(an obvious turn-off for women) - the Wealth thing helps in this department)

- Misunderstood ( always appear somewhat of a mystery, but do it with elegance, done with elegance one looks good, done without elegance and one looks socially awkward)

-Witty (requires little explanation)


Meh, I'd settle for rich and good looking, it's probably better if they're dumb enough that I can impress them easily... (adequate personal hygiene helps too, depending on how good looking this can be worked on)

I'm not sure women need any of these things though. Ugly, horrible, mean, poor, and boring people bump uglies regularly without much trouble. Human beings aren't that picky.

[tonywalt]

That is what I was also thinking, but didn't want to insult Tony. There is a lot of skin showing in a beach community. Maybe this somehow limits the people you have access too.
I can imagine by the thirties you are starting to want to settle down. My brother in law just turned forty and he is pretty serious about meeting some one.

Well, good luck, I'm sure you will find your way.

That's fairly correct, the main of people here are accountants, divers, secretaries, bankers, and corporate lawyers. I would say there is more than the beach here, but comparable culturally to a very miniature version of Palm Beach in Florida. Very close to Bermuda.

Anyway, just a bit of a rant by myself. It's good to hang out here.

[Alexander III]

Meh, I'd settle for rich and good looking, it's probably better if they're dumb enough that I can impress them easily... (adequate personal hygiene helps too, depending on how good looking this can be worked on)

I'm not sure women need any of these things though. Ugly, horrible, mean, poor, and boring people bump uglies regularly without much trouble. Human beings aren't that picky.

You are right "Ugly, horrible, mean, poor, and boring people bump uglies regularly without much trouble". But I was talking about if you want as a guy to get a real catch, some woman who is highly desirable. If all you want to do is Bang bang, then none of the things on the list are required. But if you want to get the beautiful, intelligent, full of espirt of life, daughter of an earl to fall in love with you, they are rather necessary.

But you bring up a good point, in that standards are everything. Like the fact, that most men will never go and talk to the most beautiful girl in the bar, or room or such. This is because they are aware that they will never have her. So in a funny way they are not even attracted to her. I mean they are obviously physically attracted but never the, I fell in love and want her to fall in love with me attraction; because of their set standards she is not attractive in said sense to them. This is something which I have noticed about males, which has proven very true, standards work both ways, they prevent you from going for a girl beneath you just as much as they prevent you from going for a girl above you. Ofcourse there are exceptions to this rule, but they are just that exceptions.



Professional athletes the world over invariably have beautiful partners whether they be wives or girlfriends. Superficial, of course, reality-absolutely. They have women chasing them left, right and center. Almost to the degree of rock stars. Plllllleeeease dont give me the superficial argument or any politically correct nonsense.

I am athletic and do not fill any of these stereotypes, so your incorrect.

The way things are and the way you would like things to be are invariably very very different.

That has nothing to do with them being athletic, its because they are RICH and FAMOUS.


And wait you confuse me, you are complaining that you can't find intelligent girls attractive - but that might just be because you are confusing nerdy artificial intelligence, with real intelligence, like the intelligence and charm of women you can only find in big cities, which you cant find in the Cayman islands. I can understand that issue as I have spent parts of my life on tiny islands and parts in big cities. And on the small island it is impossible to find a true gal of character and charisma and society and beauty and intelligence, while these girls are all over big cities.

[tonywalt]

You are right "Ugly, horrible, mean, poor, and boring people bump uglies regularly without much trouble". But I was talking about i you want as a guy to get a real catch, some woman who is highly desirable. If all you want to do is Bang bang, they none of the things on the list are required. But if you want to get the beautiful, intelligent, full of espirt of life, daughter of an earl to fall in love with you, they are rather necessary.

But you bring up a good point, in that standards are everything. Like the fact, that most men will never go and talk to the most beautiful girl in the ba, or room or such. This is because they are aware that they will never have her. So in a funny way they are not even attracted to her, I mean obviously physically attracted but never the I fell in love and want her to fall in love with me attraction; because of their set standards she is not attractive in said sense to them. This is something which I have noticed about males, which has proven very true, standards work both ways, they prevent you from going for a girl beneath you just as much as they prevent you from going for a girl above you. Ofcourse there are exceptions to this rule, but they are just that exceptions.




That has nothing to do with them being athletic, its because they are RICH and FAMOUS.


And wait you confuse me, you are complaining that you can't find intelligent girls attractive - but that might just be because you are confusing nerdy artificial intelligence, with real intelligence, like the intelligence and charm of women you can only find in big cities, which you cant find in the Cayman islands. I can understand that issue as I have spent parts of my life on tiny islands and parts in big cities. And on the small island it is impossible to find a true gal of character and charisma and society and beauty and intelligence, while these girls are all over big cities.

"You can only find "intelligence in big cities" - that's a bit of a sweeping generalization? But look, you actually wrote that.

What is the difference between "nerdy artificial intelligence" and "real intelligence" (the latter of which can only be found in big cities).

What "tiny" islands have you lived on?

Hey, I am only saying that's its "tough out there", but I'm not moving to NY or London to meet a girl. I do date, but, well, sometimes one gets a little fed up. i'm sure things will turn right with a little effort.

[JuniperWoolf]

Professional athletes the world over invariably have beautiful partners whether they be wives or girlfriends.

So does anyone else who makes over six figures a year. I repeat: B.O.R.I.N.G. I'm the girl in this conversation, I get the tie breaker when the discussion is "what are girls attracted to?"

[Propter W.]

So does anyone else who makes over six figures a year. I repeat: B.O.R.I.N.G. I'm the girl in this conversation, I get the tie breaker when the discussion is "what are girls attracted to?"

You run in odd circles.

I'm both a brooding, reading type and an athlete. It was a lot, a lot easier to get the girls when I mentioned I did martial arts than when I mentioned Thoreau, Poe, or Daniel Defoe.

Men and women both say that they're attracted to the inside, to character, intelligence, a sense of humour etc. Well, it's not true. People are attracted to the outside, looks, status, popularity...

I don't see why people persist on being so politically correct about it.

[OrphanPip]

You run in odd circles.

I'm both a brooding, reading type and an athlete. It was a lot, a lot easier to get the girls when I mentioned I did martial arts than when I mentioned Thoreau, Poe, or Daniel Defoe.

Men and women both say that they're attracted to the inside, to character, intelligence, a sense of humour etc. Well, it's not true. People are attracted to the outside, looks, status, popularity...

I don't see why people persist on being so politically correct about it.

Women are far more concerned with stability and reliability for long-term relationships. There are balances of needs and desires. Moreover, cultural notions of status vary greatly and will effect how people are perceived. I really could care less if someone has a lot of money, I've been boring and middle class long enough to know that someone with money can't really buy me anything interesting. Most women would care more that a man has the money to support themselves (and potentially a family) more than just being ridiculously wealthy.

I don't know why anyone would care about popularity...

Good looks certainly matter, but they tend to matter more for getting your foot in the door than achieving long-term relationship success. I'm not a woman, so I can't speak for them on this. But the list of people I'd be willing to date is not the same as the list of people I'd be willing to sleep with. (just fyi I do not actually keep lists of people I'd like to screw/date)

[Emmy Castrol]

...like the intelligence and charm of women you can only find in big cities, which you cant find in the Cayman islands....

LOL ... I don't think it's a big city thing. I live in a pretty big city and my girlfriends still can't find the right guy. I think finding the right person is a miracle, there's only one person out there who is suitable and compatible for you in every way. The good thing is we have a kindly God who will make sure that the chance will come along in your life to meet this person but it will be up to you to take it. You may get distracted by a lack of superficial qualities but your gut will know. tonywalt, my advice is to hone your intuition so that when that person comes, you will know, whether you meet them in the Cayman Islands or anywhere else in the world...


You run in odd circles.

I'm both a brooding, reading type and an athlete. It was a lot, a lot easier to get the girls when I mentioned I did martial arts than when I mentioned Thoreau, Poe, or Daniel Defoe.

Men and women both say that they're attracted to the inside, to character, intelligence, a sense of humour etc. Well, it's not true. People are attracted to the outside, looks, status, popularity...

I don't see why people persist on being so politically correct about it.

It's not being politically correct, it's just not true! Yes people are automatically attracted to looks, status, wealth but upon reflection, they may choose not to be with such a person. I don't care how popular, rich or handsome a man is, if he has bad taste in women (i.e. Anne Hathaway, Kate Beckinsale, Scarlett Johannson) I want nothing to do with him! You can tell a lot about a man by his taste in women

[JuniperWoolf]

I don't see why people persist on being so politically correct about it.

I'm not being "politically correct" (*gag* I hate that term). It's cute seeing a bunch of guys INSIST on what chicks are attracted to. "Excuse me, little lady, but you're completely wrong! I know what women want! Rippling muscles, right? Like MTV says!"

I'm not saying that looks don't matter, I'm saying that the kind of looks put forward in this thread as universally attractive have been juvenile. Most chicks find excessive muscles disgusting. They just don't look good. Lean trumps beefy, because it's healthy and someone with a lean body is more likely to have a personality as they likely weren't raised with copious amounts of team sports (and thus, they aren't able to develop a team sports mentality). Most women find athletes arrogant, and invariably prefer a healthy looking guy with a smart mouth (or "witty," "clever," "charming," "a smoothe talker," whichever term you prefer for someone who isn't insufferably boring). I don't mind arrogance, but my big issue is that big guys always seem to smell. They're also rarely funny (which I insist goes back to that "team sports mentality" that I mentioned earlier).

And yeah, "popularity" means jack. You can't even gauge if someone is "popular" or not once you're out of high school, the word just has no meaning.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Women are far more concerned with stability and reliability for long-term relationships. There are balances of needs and desires. Moreover, cultural notions of status vary greatly and will effect how people are perceived. I really could care less if someone has a lot of money, I've been boring and middle class long enough to know that someone with money can't really buy me anything interesting. Most women would care more that a man has the money to support themselves (and potentially a family) more than just being ridiculously wealthy.

I don't know why anyone would care about popularity...

Good looks certainly matter, but they tend to matter more for getting your foot in the door than achieving long-term relationship success. I'm not a woman, so I can't speak for them on this. But the list of people I'd be willing to date is not the same as the list of people I'd be willing to sleep with. (just fyi I do not actually keep lists of people I'd like to screw/date)

Amen. Also, I completely agree with Juniper on what a girl wants. That is to say, a girl who's looking for more than just a one night stand or similar.

May I also just add that I've met quite a few smart and well-read men who are either incredibly boring or totally self-important or both/worse. An ***hole is an ***hole...intelligence doesn't make a difference in that case. And some of these men then blame being rejected on the 'fact' that girls only like dumb jocks who open beer bottles with their teeth. However, I am not saying that Propter and Tony are like that, obviously...

[Propter W.]

I'm not being "politically correct" (*gag* I hate that term). It's cute seeing a bunch of guys INSIST on what chicks are attracted to. "Excuse me, little lady, but you're completely wrong! I know what women want! Rippling muscles, right? Like MTV says!"
I'm just making an observation. For me, girls were a lot more interested in the sports I practiced than in the books I read. I have a beautiful girl now who loves to swim, fight and dance and she's smarter than me. So it doesn't really matter to me anymore.

Also, one of my best friends is a very intelligent, funny guy. He's obese, however. He's never had a girlfriend. I know lots of guys who are not so smart and not even that funny. They play sports, though. They've had lots of girls. It seems, when we're talking about attraction, athletic guys have an advantage.


I'm not saying that looks don't matter, I'm saying that the kind of looks put forward in this thread as universally attractive have been juvenile. Most chicks find excessive muscles disgusting. I've been playing sports my entire life. I don't have excessive muscles. Most professional athletes don't have excessive muscles.


They just don't look good. Lean trumps beefy, because it's healthy and someone with a lean body is more likely to have a personality as they likely weren't raised with copious amounts of team sports (and thus, they aren't able to develop a team sports mentality).Wow, you really hate sport, don't you?


Most women find athletes arrogant, and invariably prefer a healthy looking guy with a smart mouth (or "witty," "clever," "charming," "a smoothe talker," whichever term you prefer for someone who isn't insufferably boring).
I don't mind arrogance, but my big issue is that big guys always seem to smell. They're also rarely funny (which I insist goes back to that "team sports mentality" that I mentioned earlier).

So athletes aren't healthy, they are boring and arrogant, they smell and they're not funny?


And yeah, "popularity" means jack. You can't even gauge if someone is "popular" or not once you're out of high school, the word just has no meaning.Again, you run in odd circles.

[hallaig]

But in my experience, telling 'intellectual' women that you write (assuming that you do, of course, in particular poetry) and they're queueing up to swoon at your feet.

H


I agree. It's the poetry gene. Turns an ugly boring old fool into a figure of romance and mystery.

[tonywalt]

You run in odd circles.

I'm both a brooding, reading type and an athlete. It was a lot, a lot easier to get the girls when I mentioned I did martial arts than when I mentioned Thoreau, Poe, or Daniel Defoe.

Men and women both say that they're attracted to the inside, to character, intelligence, a sense of humour etc. Well, it's not true. People are attracted to the outside, looks, status, popularity...

I don't see why people persist on being so politically correct about it.

THANK YOU PROPTER!!! It's taken f'n days for someone with the balls to say this!! I don't give two damns about what people SAY, it's what they DO, that I pay close attention to!!

Politically Correctness Propter - It's only getting worse. I've got to mute my politics to start with, any laws of nature stuff is muted by PC Police.


I'm not being "politically correct" (*gag* I hate that term). It's cute seeing a bunch of guys INSIST on what chicks are attracted to. "Excuse me, little lady, but you're completely wrong! I know what women want! Rippling muscles, right? Like MTV says!"

I'm not saying that looks don't matter, I'm saying that the kind of looks put forward in this thread as universally attractive have been juvenile. Most chicks find excessive muscles disgusting. They just don't look good. Lean trumps beefy, because it's healthy and someone with a lean body is more likely to have a personality as they likely weren't raised with copious amounts of team sports (and thus, they aren't able to develop a team sports mentality). Most women find athletes arrogant, and invariably prefer a healthy looking guy with a smart mouth (or "witty," "clever," "charming," "a smoothe talker," whichever term you prefer for someone who isn't insufferably boring). I don't mind arrogance, but my big issue is that big guys always seem to smell. They're also rarely funny (which I insist goes back to that "team sports mentality" that I mentioned earlier).

And yeah, "popularity" means jack. You can't even gauge if someone is "popular" or not once you're out of high school, the word just has no meaning.

Real life does not work like the above. Why would an athlete be smelly? I shower, oh hell, many times during the month when I can find the damn time.
Ok....Fridays then, but's its with a really high end soap and a nice exfoliant to boot.

[Alexander III]

Observing this as a guy, I find it hilarious and not that surprising that the men on this thread are telling the women, that their tastes in men are wrong.

[papayahed]

Observing this as a guy, I find it hilarious and not that surprising that the men on this thread are telling the women, that their tastes in men are wrong.

exactly, right?

It seems obvious to me that women that belong to a literature website would find intellectuals attractive and not necessarily fall into the stereotype that is being put forth by the OP. (And wonders of wonders the women on here don't even necessarily agree on attractiveness)

It's like walking into a Nascar convention and taking a poll of their favorite rugby player then telling them they aren't falling into the norm.

[OrphanPip]

Technically I'm a man being told my taste in men is wrong :p

Although, I don't think my taste for unatheletic and short men is any way in line with the views of most women. When I'm being superficial I care more about bone structure and hair.

[tonywalt]

Did you just come out? Nothing wrong there, good for you man.

I'm stuck with women, but I do love them alot.

[OrphanPip]

Did you just come out? Nothing wrong there, good for you man.

I'm stuck with women, but I do love them alot.

Haha, I've never made any effort to hide the fact on this site. Besides my David Bowie avatar, Divine profile wallpaper, and my numerous blogs on LGBT issues and my own life would give it away :p.

If you mean in real life, that happened ages ago too.

[Emmy Castrol]

If I have to be superficial, I'd say that I love a good, large set of strong shoulders on a man

I can stare at a good set of shoulders all day and never tire of it

[tonywalt]

exactly, right?

It seems obvious to me that women that belong to a literature website would find intellectuals attractive and not necessarily fall into the stereotype that is being put forth by the OP. (And wonders of wonders the women on here don't even necessarily agree on attractiveness)

It's like walking into a Nascar convention and taking a poll of their favorite rugby player then telling them they aren't falling into the norm.

Exactly. The sample group here not representative of the broader world. But that's why I'm here -so good.

Everyone wrote in to say what 'they' were like, but really I'm talking about pepole would not join this forum, and the last thing they read was "The Firm" by John Grisham.

[Patrick_Bateman]

I have certainly become less sociable over the years as my reading has taken a front seat in how my day to day life is lived.

Whenever a friend texts or calls me asking to go out I first of all think whether I want to read that particular day. Then I weigh up how long I will likely be out with those friends (if I decide to go out) and if I will have time to read later. Free time spent with other people - besides my girlfriend - is subsidiary to reading, music and my education.

[Emmy Castrol]

Everyone wrote in to say what 'they' were like, but really I'm talking about pepole would not join this forum, and the last thing they read was "The Firm" by John Grisham.

Or do you mean "Twilight" by Stephanie Meyers ;)
I'd say about 19 out of every 20 females I know have read it, even the ones who don't like to read


I have certainly become less sociable over the years as my reading has taken a front seat in how my day to day life is lived.

Whenever a friend texts or calls me asking to go out I first of all think whether I want to read that particular day. Then I weigh up how long I will likely be out with those friends (if I decide to go out) and if I will have time to read later. Free time spent with other people - besides my girlfriend - is subsidiary to reading, music and my education.

Every time I do the Myer-Briggs personality test, I seem to oscillate between an introvert and extrovert personality, depending on my mood in life at that particular time. I know what you mean about when you've just bought a book that you've been dying to read for awhile, and have to spend the next day with a friend. I guess it depends on whether you're an extrovert or introvert but I normally place the friend before the book, perhaps its the extrovert in me that makes sure I do this. Just kicked out of my life a 'friend' who was continuously placing her boyfriend and selfish wants first all the time but still demanding the benefits of a friendship, and who wouldn't settle for being downgraded to an acquaintance.

You never know when you might need your friends... so it's better to treat them well.

[tonywalt]

I agree Emmy. I can vascillate between the two personalities. That is sort of the point of the thread. I think that others, and myself sometimes, prefer the extroverted side of me. And I do care about the opinions of quite a few people, I have to live the earth with them.

[Propter W.]

Observing this as a guy, I find it hilarious and not that surprising that the men on this thread are telling the women, that their tastes in men are wrong.

I find it hilarious but kind of surprising that so many people on this literature forum apparently can't read.

[JuniperWoolf]

Why would an athlete be smelly?

...Is this a serious question?

(*note* this is a serious question).

[virgo27]

I have certainly become less sociable over the years as my reading has taken a front seat in how my day to day life is lived.

Whenever a friend texts or calls me asking to go out I first of all think whether I want to read that particular day. Then I weigh up how long I will likely be out with those friends (if I decide to go out) and if I will have time to read later. Free time spent with other people - besides my girlfriend - is subsidiary to reading, music and my education.

I agree with you. Why go out and be aggravated when you can stay in, drink a beer and be better entertained by a book.

[tonywalt]

I agree with you. Why go out and be aggravated when you can stay in, drink a beer and be better entertained by a book.


You may be right virgo. I supposed we are social beings, and I balance the two things.

[tonywalt]

I agree with you. Why go out and be aggravated when you can stay in, drink a beer and be better entertained by a book.

I agree with you virgo. I suppose we are social beings, and seek others out because we are hardwired to do so. I suppose there is a balance.

[Annamariah]

And I've been thinking for my whole life that guys aren't interested in intelligent girls! I must have been sorely mistaken, then. I guess it must be my outer ugliness then that repels the guys who might otherwise be attracted to what's inside my head :rolleyes:

Anyway, I wouldn't want to date someone I couldn't have an intelligent conversation with.

I know intelligent guys who read books and have found girlfriends who aren't just brainless pretty things. It's not impossible, but of course the odds for finding intelligent girls are far better at some university than in some random bar somewhere.

[Emil Miller]

And I've been thinking for my whole life that guys aren't interested in intelligent girls! I must have been sorely mistaken, then. I guess it must be my outer ugliness then that repels the guys who might otherwise be attracted to what's inside my head :rolleyes:

Anyway, I wouldn't want to date someone I couldn't have an intelligent conversation with.

I know intelligent guys who read books and have found girlfriends who aren't just brainless pretty things. It's not impossible, but of course the odds for finding intelligent girls are far better at some university than in some random bar somewhere.

Why do you associate prettiness with brainlessness? Surely one doesn't automatically presuppose the other.

[tonywalt]

And I've been thinking for my whole life that guys aren't interested in intelligent girls! I must have been sorely mistaken, then. I guess it must be my outer ugliness then that repels the guys who might otherwise be attracted to what's inside my head :rolleyes:

Anyway, I wouldn't want to date someone I couldn't have an intelligent conversation with.

I know intelligent guys who read books and have found girlfriends who aren't just brainless pretty things. It's not impossible, but of course the odds for finding intelligent girls are far better at some university than in some random bar somewhere.

It's a difficult topic, and I like to tread carefully. Just taking a casual poll of my friends(over the years, so we are talking about a large sample), looks is the primary factor. Conversations with them are objectification to the n'th degree and would make a feminist boil over. And many of them do (but not admit to it) date girls who are less intelligent that they are, rarely would they choose a woman of greater intelligence.

That is amongst my friends, but it's not a rule, and certainly not a rule that I follow. But overall, guys are intensely visual, it's a difficult hardwire to ignore. But I have to be able to have an intelligent competition.

But back to the main topic, I very rarely find women that fit the criteria, even roughly. It's difficult anyway, but you have to push on

[Emmy Castrol]

Curious as to what constitutes 'intelligent conversation' to each person?

I remember meeting my sister's ex boyfriend (when he was still her boyfriend) for the first time, who was doing a nanotechnology honours thesis at the same time that she was. When I asked him what his thesis was about, he droned on and on with all this terrible terminology that I couldn't understand. There was no consideration to explain his project using layman's terms (which my sister always did when she explained her thesis to non-nanotechnology savvy people) so I didn't find it intelligent, just boring! (I also have the feeling he liked hearing how smart he sounded).

I might be biased because he's my husband, but I find him more intelligent - someone who never finished high school and has several types of learning disorders - than many of the guys I went to university with. I think this is be because he understands people, personality, psychology and character - and these are topics which interest me (being a reader). He is aware how closely aligned the intellect (thought) is with the ego (emotion); yet some very intellectual people - like my sister's ex-boyfriend - are oblivious to the connection and so remain blinded to the fact that they can be very narrow-minded. I remember some advice I gave to my sister when she entered the Masters lounge at uni and was being careless with her laptop "Just because they are doing a PhD doesn't mean they can't also be a thief" as she had some mistaken notions about intellectuals as higher beings.

Some of my favourite writers - DH Lawrence and Patrick White - wrote mainly about the common man in a way which show that what he may miss out on regarding intellectual ability, he is gifted in other intelligent faculties, like intuition or thoughtfulness (I've noticed that consideration for others is actually more prevalent in 'thinking' personalities than 'feeling' personalities).

[tonywalt]

Curious as to what constitutes 'intelligent conversation' to each person?

I remember meeting my sister's ex boyfriend (when he was still her boyfriend) for the first time, who was doing a nanotechnology honours thesis at the same time that she was. When I asked him what his thesis was about, he droned on and on with all this terrible terminology that I couldn't understand. There was no consideration to explain his project using layman's terms (which my sister always did when she explained her thesis to non-nanotechnology savvy people) so I didn't find it intelligent, just boring! (I also have the feeling he liked hearing how smart he sounded).

I might be biased because he's my husband, but I find him more intelligent - someone who never finished high school and has several types of learning disorders - than many of the guys I went to university with. I think this is be because he understands people, personality, psychology and character - and these are topics which interest me (being a reader). He is aware how closely aligned the intellect (thought) is with the ego (emotion); yet some very intellectual people - like my sister's ex-boyfriend - are oblivious to the connection and so remain blinded to the fact that they can be very narrow-minded. I remember some advice I gave to my sister when she entered the Masters lounge at uni and was being careless with her laptop "Just because they are doing a PhD doesn't mean they can't also be a thief" as she had some mistaken notions about intellectuals as higher beings.

Some of my favourite writers - DH Lawrence and Patrick White - wrote mainly about the common man in a way which show that what he may miss out on regarding intellectual ability, he is gifted in other intelligent faculties, like intuition or thoughtfulness (I've noticed that consideration for others is actually more prevalent in 'thinking' personalities than 'feeling' personalities).

Your husband describes, or I should say is an example of intelligent conversation. I suppose, but that is more the exception than the rule. Most dictionaries define intellectual as, "the rational rather than the emotional". But like you said the two are intertwined more than we think.

But I've had a few relationships, albeit short ones, where they could discuss nothing other than parochial topics.

[Annamariah]

Why do you associate prettiness with brainlessness? Surely one doesn't automatically presuppose the other.

Oh, I never meant to say that pretty girls were automatically brainless. I know several girls who are both beautiful and intelligent. I was just trying to say that it is possible to find girlfriends who aren't just "pretty but silly" even if the original poster doesn't seem to feel that way.


It's a difficult topic, and I like to tread carefully. Just taking a casual poll of my friends(over the years, so we are talking about a large sample), looks is the primary factor. Conversations with them are objectification to the n'th degree and would make a feminist boil over. And many of them do (but not admit to it) date girls who are less intelligent that they are, rarely would they choose a woman of greater intelligence.
Well yeah, that's more like what I've always thought. Most men feel intimidated by intelligent women :p

[Musicology]

I believe the wonderful minds of others is where we meet friends. Having said this, love is only a temporary visitor to this world. I like books. And women who like books are great. Some of them are wonderful. Others are not.

[tonywalt]

Oh, I never meant to say that pretty girls were automatically brainless. I know several girls who are both beautiful and intelligent. I was just trying to say that it is possible to find girlfriends who aren't just "pretty but silly" even if the original poster doesn't seem to feel that way.



I agree with Annamariah 100%.

But my original post said intellect, which means well intellectual for lack of a better word(and not in an aloof way). I mean discusses books, current events, abstract ideas..stuff that you see discussed in on this website alot and is extremely interesting to me, hell that's why I joined. So yes, I dated a pretty and high level executive secretary recently, but I can honestly say she had never read or seen the news, read a book other than Jackie Collins type books, and would be wouldnt join this forum to save her life. She liked to talk about married affairs, reality tv, uum new shops opening. Having said that, theres nothing wrong with her, her intelligence(high) was focused on parochial/very local things. She had zero introspection. I conclude with, that's not my type, but that is again and again generally what you find most often than not(and yes, there are exceptions).



Well yeah, that's more like what I've always thought. Most men feel intimidated by intelligent women :p

I leave that for others to answer as to how many men would date someone who is by all measures or many measures(another discussion), more intelligent than himself. By obervation, it's very rare. Equal, yes, I see equal quite a bit.

[tonywalt]

I agree with Annamariah 100%.

But my original post said intellect, which means well intellectual for lack of a better word(and not in an aloof way). I mean discusses books, current events, abstract ideas..stuff that you see discussed in on this website alot and is extremely interesting to me, hell that's why I joined. So yes, I dated a pretty and high level executive secretary recently, but I can honestly say she had never read or seen the news possibly ever, never read a book other than Jackie Collins type books, and would be wouldn't join this forum to save her life. She liked to talk about married affairs, reality tv, uum new shops opening. Having said that, theres nothing wrong with her, her intelligence(high) was focused on parochial/very local things. She had zero introspection. I conclude with, that's not my type, but that is again and again generally what you find most often than not(and yes, there are exceptions).

[OrphanPip]

I conclude that you look for women in the wrong places.

Look for women hanging out in more bohemian venues. I find that it is easier to find people interested in things you like at the places where people who like those things congregate.

[Emmy Castrol]

I have to agree that most men would not date a woman more intelligent, nor should they. Women should find a man who is more intelligent than them, otherwise, if they become yoked to this man, they will resent him for the rest of their life together.

tonywalt, I appreciate your honesty when you admit this. I had an ex-boyfriend who was not this honest to himself. When we were just friends he would always joke about how he didnt care if his woman earnt more than him so I was fooled into thinking he was an easy-going, ego-less guy. But then when we went to uni together there was one time when I got a higher grade than him on an exam and he wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the week. We had such a bad fight over it that I (sub-consciously) tried to 'dumb' myself down, until I got to the point where he was embarrassed by my grades, and I had to have counselling to help get my grades back up again. He had a problem again when I was earning more than him. I hate men like that who try to put women into a box - you can't earn as much as him but you have to earn an acceptable level so not to embarrass him. To this day, I still hate him when I think of him and my university years are a complete write-off because of how miserable I remember them to be.

However, if a man is honest about it in the first place and chooses not to put himself in this situation, well that's different.

[Vonny]

I agree with Annamariah 100%.

But my original post said intellect, which means well intellectual for lack of a better word(and not in an aloof way). I mean discusses books, current events, abstract ideas..stuff that you see discussed in on this website alot and is extremely interesting to me, hell that's why I joined. So yes, I dated a pretty and high level executive secretary recently, but I can honestly say she had never read or seen the news possibly ever, never read a book other than Jackie Collins type books, and would be wouldn't join this forum to save her life. She liked to talk about married affairs, reality tv, uum new shops opening. Having said that, theres nothing wrong with her, her intelligence(high) was focused on parochial/very local things. She had zero introspection. I conclude with, that's not my type, but that is again and again generally what you find most often than not(and yes, there are exceptions).

You describe my brother's former wife here. She was a surgical nurse, an accomplished nurse, very intelligent. Doctor's occasionally put her in charge of anesthesia (a scary, scary thought). She watched reality tv - all of those shows, talent shows... shows like Sex in the City. And she played video games, but never read anything except a tabloid.

In my family we never watched tv, but all the sudden my brother was spending his evenings held hostage by tv. He noticed some very strange concepts, such as a 110-pound model in an "Amazon Warrior" role. He said that in practically every show you have a 110-pound woman kicking a man in the groin, and that was very funny, but there was never a man kicking a woman in the groin.

On tv it's not "correct" for a women to cook anymore, unless she's a chef on the Food Network.

All of the reality programming is based on abuse and degradation. It's all about outdoing someone, and "ends justifying the means." The entertainment factor is simply abuse and degradation of someone else.

My brother's wife absorbed all of this tv, and this is what she discussed at work with her colleagues.

What we began to see in this woman was a complete lack of empathy. She seemed to lack empathy for her patients. She would smirk about someone who had attempted suicide and failed. (There's one horrendous example that comes to my mind, but I won't go into detail!) She did seem to go through the motions and perform well as a nurse, but my brother started to say, I've got to get away from this woman - she scares me!

TV also promotes passive/aggressive types of behaviors. This woman would do things such as fix my brother a piece of toast, but burn it every single time. That's a very simple example, but she had this behavior elevated to an art form, in all the strange, and obviously calculated things she would do. From her conversations, we could also perceive that the nurses she worked with played the same "games" with each other. They were always gossiping about and persecuting one staff nurse or another. And always, everything would seem very, very, nice on the surface, but underneath there were foul intentions.

In my own life I know many people who have this same personality, and I've come to believe that it is absorbed from tv, including women who all have the same speech patterns and cadences to their voices. I'm thinking, "Why do they all sound that same way?"

I'm not sure what my point was anymore.

Annamariah, was that a typo? - my outer ugliness (something like that) - I've seen your pictures, and you're beautiful. Good heavens, who are you comparing yourself to?

[tonywalt]

I conclude that you look for women in the wrong places.

Look for women hanging out in more bohemian venues. I find that it is easier to find people interested in things you like at the places where people who like those things congregate.

OrphanPip,

Agreed. But we have no bohemian venues in the Cayman Islands, where I am from and live. But as we grow in population, it may evolve(I hope;)

[Emmy Castrol]

What would be a bohemian venue? I don't think we even have them in Sydney...

[tonywalt]

I have to agree that most men would not date a woman more intelligent, nor should they. Women should find a man who is more intelligent than them, otherwise, if they become yoked to this man, they will resent him for the rest of their life together.

tonywalt, I appreciate your honesty when you admit this. I had an ex-boyfriend who was not this honest to himself. When we were just friends he would always joke about how he didnt care if his woman earnt more than him so I was fooled into thinking he was an easy-going, ego-less guy. But then when we went to uni together there was one time when I got a higher grade than him on an exam and he wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the week. We had such a bad fight over it that I (sub-consciously) tried to 'dumb' myself down, until I got to the point where he was embarrassed by my grades, and I had to have counselling to help get my grades back up again. He had a problem again when I was earning more than him. I hate men like that who try to put women into a box - you can't earn as much as him but you have to earn an acceptable level so not to embarrass him. To this day, I still hate him when I think of him and my university years are a complete write-off because of how miserable I remember them to be.

However, if a man is honest about it in the first place and chooses not to put himself in this situation, well that's different.


Well said, and void of political correctness(which I have little time). I suppose I prefer to be on top...in terms of income/assets that is.

[papayahed]

Well said, and void of political correctness(which I have little time). I suppose I prefer to be on top...in terms of income/assets that is.

Yeah, that kinda stinks for even moderately successful women. I mean I feel bad when The guy pays and I know I make more then him but when I offer to pay they generally get their nose out of joint.

And why is it that Guys can exert their authority at work and afterwards go out for beers but when I do that they get pissy? What's up with that?

[OrphanPip]

What would be a bohemian venue? I don't think we even have them in Sydney...

I was thinking, albeit a little tongue and cheek, of the pretentious cafes in the Plateau Montreal area (for Montreal specifically) where aspiring artist (with useless educations) gather for spoken word poetry and admiring bad paintings.

Or, more seriously, you know independent book shops, small theaters (where you can mingle with the crowd and actors afterwards), festivals, or jazz bars. Those kinds of places.

[tonywalt]

Yeah, that kinda stinks for even moderately successful women. I mean I feel bad when The guy pays and I know I make more then him but when I offer to pay they generally get their nose out of joint.

And why is it that Guys can exert their authority at work and afterwards go out for beers but when I do that they get pissy? What's up with that?

True, it may kinda stink the paying the bill/tab thing, but we are much more comfortable being the provider. 30 years of feminism(all good and fair) is not going to change or reverse a almost a million years of evolution. If you think about it in those terms - hardwire evolution.

The second one is tougher, maybe guys (not my goodself, of course;) may idealise women to be chaste. Going out with the girls might make them a little uneasy as to what you may be getting up to. I don't have any problem with it, and most guys don't either. A few drinks after work seems innocent to the average guy.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Well said, and void of political correctness(which I have little time). I suppose I prefer to be on top...in terms of income/assets that is.

This is a bit irritating, although I understand that men like to be the providers.

Compared to people my age I get payed quite well, so it's very possible I might date someone who earns less than me. That means that we will never go to a restaurant/weekend spot/wherever that he can't afford, although I can afford it and really want to go. I also don't like guys paying for everything, because it limits my choices and because I know I can pay for myself, so when he pays I feel like I'm sponging. Also, how am I supposed to know when he's alright with me paying or not?

[tonywalt]

This is a bit irritating, although I understand that men like to be the providers.

Compared to people my age I get payed quite well, so it's very possible I might date someone who earns less than me. That means that we will never go to a restaurant/weekend spot/wherever that he can't afford, although I can afford it and really want to go. I also don't like guys paying for everything, because it limits my choices and because I know I can pay for myself, so when he pays I feel like I'm sponging. Also, how am I supposed to know when he's alright with me paying or not?

I've dated alot of girls who were in the same income bracket, and I let them pay every say 3rd or 4th time. I supposed, and I'm being honest, I would pay more times than she paid-that was sort of the criteria. Like I will open a door open for a girl, even though she's perfectly capable of doing the same.
It is maybe and outdated evolutionary hardwire, but it still there and feels right.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Of course, unfortunately when you have been married for a century like I have you come to an understanding on such matters - I earn the money and she spends it. :sad:

[TurquoiseSunset]

Of course, unfortunately when you have been married for a century like I have you come to an understanding on such matters - I earn the money and she spends it. :sad:

At least the lines aren't so blurry. :p

[Alexander III]

Im sorry If I derail the thread a bit with this question but it is certainly on topic

Is it just me but I find that people who, to put it bluntly, get a lot of action and are very successful with the opposite sex; when it comes to falling in love physical attractiveness for them is of far less importance than for someone who is not so successful with the opposite sex.

As in when concerning "love" not "sex" a person who is a natural playboy will be far less shallow than a person who has lacked success in sexual conquest.

This is just an observation of mine based upon myself and friends and acquaintances.

I suppose it's because being a playboy gives a sort of booming confidence where one knows that "physical attractiveness" is easy to come by and thus no longer being a rarity but a commonplace it looses much of it's fascination and beauty.

[Vonny]

Of course, unfortunately when you have been married for a century like I have you come to an understanding on such matters - I earn the money and she spends it. :sad:

If you're not being facetious here, then she doesn't deserve you.

It's interesting that if a woman came here and made this pitiful post, that her husband spent all of her money :sad: people would say, "You need to ditch that loser, that freeloader! Kick him to the curb!"

[tonywalt]

If you're not being facetious here, then she doesn't deserve you.

It's interesting that if a woman came here and made this pitiful post, that her husband spent all of her money :sad: people would say, "You need to ditch that loser, that freeloader! Kick him to the curb!"

Probably.

[JuniperWoolf]

I love generalized cliche statements, too. Women shop for clothing with their husband's money! They tell men to take out the garbage and clean the garage! They talk too much! And Jews are cheap and black people are lazy! Amiright?!?

[TurquoiseSunset]

To quote what you originally said, Tony:
The roles men and women play in a relationship or a family (yes, with exceptions) were and still to a very large degree different, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

I would agree that men and women are different, obviously. We should all have equal rights, but we are different. However, when it comes to the roles men and women play in a relationship I find that people still expect the stereotypical roles, based solely on the fact that men and women are different. Yes, a man is different from his wife, but that doesn't mean he can't cook and she can't mow the lawn, etc. Those things have nothing to do with disposition, which itself is not dictated by gender, but you know what I mean. In the end, the role I take in my marriage shouldn't have to follow a specific structure, but be something that works for me and my spouse, whatever it may be.

[Vonny]

I love generalized cliche statements, too. Women shop for clothing with their husband's money! They tell men to take out the garbage and clean the garage! They talk too much! And Jews are cheap and black people are lazy! Amiright?!?


Most women will shop for clothing with anyone's money they can get their hands on. They will shop for clothing with anything they can beg borrow or steal.

When was the last time you saw a man wearing spike heels just like Oprah's?

[JuniperWoolf]

They will shop for clothing with anything they can beg borrow or steal.


Right, and all mexicans are drunks and chinese people are good at math. This is pathetic. Has a woman ever even spoken to you? 'Cuz I'm thinking "no."

[Vonny]

To quote what you originally said, Tony:

I would agree that men and women are different, obviously. We should all have equal rights, but we are different. However, when it comes to the roles men and women play in a relationship I find that people still expect the stereotypical roles, based solely on the fact that men and women are different. Yes, a man is different from his wife, but that doesn't mean he can't cook and she can't mow the lawn, etc. Those things have nothing to do with disposition, which itself is not dictated by gender, but you know what I mean. In the end, the role I take in my marriage shouldn't have to follow a specific structure, but be something that works for me and my spouse, whatever it may be.

I agree completely.

Also a woman can cook and the man can mow the lawn. That's also okay.

[TurquoiseSunset]

I love generalized cliche statements, too. Women shop for clothing with their husband's money! They tell men to take out the garbage and clean the garage! They talk too much! And Jews are cheap and black people are lazy! Amiright?!?

Oo, I love them too <3 A colleague of mine only thinks in stereotypes: English people are liberal, Afrikaans people are conservative, blacks are not to be trusted, white people are the smartest, women have no brains and should only be entrusted with breeding and cooking, etc. You can tell he is a mouth piece for his father and grew up in a little cocoon, so I should feel sorry for him, but it drives me insane.


Most women will shop for clothing with anyone's money they can get their hands on. They will shop for clothing with anything they can beg borrow or steal.

Total bull. I don't know any women like this...ANY. Some of them might love shopping, but they use their own hard-earned salaries.

[Vonny]

I just wanted to stir you gals up :flare:

:lol:

But really if you don't know women who will shop for clothes any way they can, you're living in a different world than I am.

[TurquoiseSunset]

But really if you don't know women who will shop for clothes any way they can, you're living in a different world than I am.

Clearly. I'm not saying there aren't women like that, but I really can't agree with your previous statement.

[tonywalt]

Right, and all mexicans are drunks and chinese people are good at math. This is pathetic. Has a woman ever even spoken to you? 'Cuz I'm thinking "no."

The original thread was designed for me to find a girlfriend:)

[papayahed]

The original thread was designed for me to find a girlfriend:)

That was the point of the original post????

[Vonny]

Would you say that Reading has improved your social life (i.e. the opposite sex or same sex, if you like)? I can honestly say it does not.

I get much more attraction from girls for being funny(in a mindless bar banter way) and playing down intellect. This has always been the case, thank god I am athletic! I get a helluva alot more interest for being a jock or if I am perceived to be a leader (read ALPHA).

I am not lodging a huge complaint, I like who I am and would not change me.

And before you good people say "not all girls/people are like that", I have to stop you in your tracks. I would say 99% of the girls I am attracted to (yes, I am human and it's a blend of looks, personality, character) do not fall in the well read/intellectual category that makes up most of this forum. It's just the god's honest truth. Yes, they do watch TV and read magazines, but the same bubble gum rubbish/reality tv rubbish that the "sheeple" watch/read nowadays.

In summary, it's damn hard find the 1 percent and then finding someone within that one percent who you get along with. Cant say I've ever met someone like that. I have had good practical relationships, but it was complimentary.

Do you want a conversation killer? Just say "Tolstoy" or mention anything to do with "good books" while in a pub/party/social setting. And sorry, we all can't live in intellectual centers, most of us have to live in very conventional areas, with dreadfully conventional people.

I know I am not the only one out there with similiar frustrations. Thank god I was a line backer in high school, otherwise, well...

The original post seems to have more to do with finding a girlfriend than with Mexicans, drunks, Chinese people or math.

[Buh4Bee]

Wasn't that obvious? I thought so.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Will this thread just die already?

[Jack of Hearts]

Thank you for purchasing this pack of Bazooka-Joe bubblegum. If you unfold the wrapper, you'll find your complimentary two-cent Jacky Hearts Guide to Gettin' the Lovin'. (C)1974

It's as easy as one, two, three!


Stop putting it on a pedestal. Man up. Go outside.

Stop putting it on a pedestal.

Focusing on success with the opposite sex is ridiculous. It can't make you happy in any real way. You may be needing love right now. There's probably no such thing as love, though (at least, not as you presently imagine it), and any 'love' you find will be, by it's own nature, transient and unable to heal your crippled/wanting soul in any way you might have imagined (also, you may not have a soul).

Man up.

Seriously. Do what you have to do. You know what you should be doing. If you don't, figure it the hell out. Whoops, you accidentally just lived your life. Be on your own team no matter what. Enough people in the world think you suck. Even if it seems completely irrational, love yourself.<- This is the 'trick', by the way. That one solution to everything that everyone says doesn't exist. This is it. Right here. Yep. No confetti.

Go outside.

... of your head and quit making crap up. Most of the stuff you think is just made up crap.
But women only like a guy with money, muscles, cars, etc. Cry me a river, Betsy. You wouldn't mind if Angelina Jolie rolled up to your house in a Porsche and not much else. Some things are just awesome, regardless of gender or cultural settings. Not everything human is rational. Interpersonal attraction is like that. The better you can function in a godless, nihilistic, chaos consumed cosmos where certainty and actual knowledge do not exist, the more likely you are to spontaneously make out with intoxicated women in the sticky bathroom of a Persian nightclub.

Just remember "Double-N-L-N-G-V":

No such thing as love/you don't have a soul.
Live your life.
Nihilistic godless void.




J

[Buh4Bee]

very funny.

:p

[Vonny]

Thank you for purchasing this pack of Bazooka-Joe bubblegum. If you unfold the wrapper, you'll find your complimentary two-cent Jacky Hearts Guide to Gettin' the Lovin'. (C)1974

It's as easy as one, two, three!


Stop putting it on a pedestal. Man up. Go outside.

Stop putting it on a pedestal.

Focusing on success with the opposite sex is ridiculous. It can't make you happy in any real way. You may be needing love right now. There's probably no such thing as love, though (at least, not as you presently imagine it), and any 'love' you find will be, by it's own nature, transient and unable to heal your crippled/wanting soul in any way you might have imagined (also, you may not have a soul).

Man up.

Seriously. Do what you have to do. You know what you should be doing. If you don't, figure it the hell out. Whoops, you accidentally just lived your life. Be on your own team no matter what. Enough people in the world think you suck. Even if it seems completely irrational, love yourself.<- This is the 'trick', by the way. That one solution to everything that everyone says doesn't exist. This is it. Right here. Yep. No confetti.

Go outside.

... of your head and quit making crap up. Most of the stuff you think is just made up crap.
But women only like a guy with money, muscles, cars, etc. Cry me a river, Betsy. You wouldn't mind if Angelina Jolie rolled up to your house in a Porsche and not much else. Some things are just awesome, regardless of gender or cultural settings. Not everything human is rational. Interpersonal attraction is like that. The better you can function in a godless, nihilistic, chaos consumed cosmos where certainty and actual knowledge do not exist, the more likely you are to spontaneously make out with intoxicated women in the sticky bathroom of a Persian nightclub.

Just remember "Double-N-L-N-G-V":

No such thing as love/you don't have a soul.
Live your life.
Nihilistic godless void.




J

This has been, pretty much, my brother's conclusion after finally extricating from a 10-year marriage.

(ooops I have to edit out my brother's joke I put here, because it's way too personal!)

He just says to just pick one up for the night, because nothing is more grueling than marriage.

He says, "I won't even let her put her shoes in my closet," because as soon as they have a claim on a bit of your space, they will begin to take you for granted. Until you marry them, and get locked into that mortgage, they will work to get you. (I have to edit something else here, too personal -- but basically, don't leave the birth control to her, or anything could end up happening to you.)

It's too bad that this is the world we've got now, but the reality is what it is.

[Vonny]

Thank you for purchasing this pack of Bazooka-Joe bubblegum. If you unfold the wrapper, you'll find your complimentary two-cent Jacky Hearts Guide to Gettin' the Lovin'. (C)1974

It's as easy as one, two, three!


Stop putting it on a pedestal. Man up. Go outside.

Stop putting it on a pedestal.

Focusing on success with the opposite sex is ridiculous. It can't make you happy in any real way. You may be needing love right now. There's probably no such thing as love, though (at least, not as you presently imagine it), and any 'love' you find will be, by it's own nature, transient and unable to heal your crippled/wanting soul in any way you might have imagined (also, you may not have a soul).

Man up.

Seriously. Do what you have to do. You know what you should be doing. If you don't, figure it the hell out. Whoops, you accidentally just lived your life. Be on your own team no matter what. Enough people in the world think you suck. Even if it seems completely irrational, love yourself.<- This is the 'trick', by the way. That one solution to everything that everyone says doesn't exist. This is it. Right here. Yep. No confetti.

Go outside.

... of your head and quit making crap up. Most of the stuff you think is just made up crap.
But women only like a guy with money, muscles, cars, etc. Cry me a river, Betsy. You wouldn't mind if Angelina Jolie rolled up to your house in a Porsche and not much else. Some things are just awesome, regardless of gender or cultural settings. Not everything human is rational. Interpersonal attraction is like that. The better you can function in a godless, nihilistic, chaos consumed cosmos where certainty and actual knowledge do not exist, the more likely you are to spontaneously make out with intoxicated women in the sticky bathroom of a Persian nightclub.

Just remember "Double-N-L-N-G-V":

No such thing as love/you don't have a soul.
Live your life.
Nihilistic godless void.




J

I'd like to make another separate statement in this separate thread, because I'm not happy with the note I ended on yesterday.

It isn't true that there's no such thing as love.

It isn't true that you don't have a soul, even if it's questionable whether some other people have one.

You don't need to be chaos, because so many other people are.

And who knows who you may find out there.

None of the things you want are to be disparaged.

The fact that you like cheerleaders. I didn't read that thread but - maybe it's your way of saying you want someone who has some life in her? My brother would probably say, "Are there any waitresses here?" It might sound insulting to some people. It's not that he wants a woman who will wait on him hand and foot, but he does enjoy going to restaurants, especially for breakfast, partly because he adores waitresses (and he's a big tipper!) Throughout his marriage, when his wife would never fix him more than burnt toast, he developed an attachment for waitresses.

The idea of wanting a very attractive woman. I've had it explained to me, how men are very visual, and are hard-wired somewhat differently from women. This is undoubtedly a part of our evolution. The only distortion here is from the media's bombardment of unrealistic images. It's sort of like what they do to us with high-fructose cornsyrup. As apes we learned that sweetness meant that a berry wasn't poisonous. Our brains have evolved to run on sugar. And throughout history it was in short supply, so we grabbed the sweetest berries we could get our hands on. Now people are hooked on the most sickeningly sweet junk foods and drinks, (such as the substance called "latte") because their natural desire for sweetness has been tapped into and adulterated.

When my brother's marriage ended, he felt very devastated from the entire experience. He had many horrible thoughts similar to the ones raised above, regarding chaos and people without souls.

He came to see that the important thing was he had tried to love her, and that nothing could diminish that. The fact that she wouldn't allow herself to be loved or that she couldn't return any love was separate from him.

He did what he felt right about. For instance, his business went bankrupt before their divorce. Somehow, he finagled with his lawyer a way to spare his wife from being involved in the bankruptcy, so it didn't affect her. He also allowed her to take most of what they had, and she kept all of her personal savings. His dogs were the only non-negotiable matter to him; he wouldn't give up his dogs. He just wanted to give her what they had and be done with it.

Regarding the one-nighters, my brother jokes a lot, so I don't know if he's serious on that one or not. But he's not a person to use anyone. In reality, I've never known of him doing this. It's just that he recognizes that the old-fashioned commitment where you become entangled with another person would be his undoing again.

We're seeing a complete breakdown of society right now, but as individuals, we don't need to be part of it.

I like Jack's most important point - to love yourself. And also that there are awesome things in this life.