The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[yanni]

The Bach variations.

Following the solution of many other 18th classical music puzzles in this forum (primarily "The Manufacture of Mozart" by Robert Newman-ehmmm-and "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" by yourstruly) Bach's famous variations (also known as "Goldberg variations", the re "tale" manufactured by musicologist "Nicolaus Forkel") can now easily be put in historic context and explained.

Interested parties are wellcome to study carefully thru am threads...

as well as....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations

http://www.keyserlingk.info/default.asp?case=STORY&DocID=44&city=FAMILY

.....AND....

http://www.box.net/shared/iypxjy9f6g (last relative online publication-Sept 16, 2009 by Alexander Nicolas Graf Keyserlingk)

...and then declare herein their interest to participate in the discussion and assist in finding the solution to the title's puzzle.

Greetings from Athens Greece!

http://schillerinstitute.com/fid_97-01/004_Bach_mus_off.html

‘Thinking Through Singing’ The Strategic Significance of J.S. Bach’s Musical Offering by David Shavin (Fidelio, Vol. IX ,No, 4. Winter 2000).

A half-truth naturally, the term "excellent" referring to the precise chirurgical excision of the other half of 18th century german history, culture included.

Count Hermann Keyserling is the founder of the School of Wisdom in modern times. His son, Professor Arnold Keyserling, Vienna, Austria, is a well known philosopher and spiritual leader in Europe today. Count Keyserling is the author of numerous books, many of which were best sellers in the 1920's in Europe, North America, and South America, including The Travel Diary of a Philosopher, America Set Free, Europe, The World in the Making, The Book of Marriage, Immortality, Creative Understanding, South American Meditations.

Count Keyserling is the first Western thinker to conceive and promote a planetary culture, beyond nationalism and cultural ethnocentrism, based on recognition of the equal value and validity of non-western cultures and philosophies. He founded the School of Wisdom in Darmstadt,* Germany in 1920 based on the original Schools of Wisdom which prospered over two thousand years ago in Northern India under Buddhist rule. Unlike other spiritual leaders of the day, he did not set himself up as a guru, or establish any kind of personality cult. Instead he encouraged the equal participation of many others, including his friends, Carl Jung, Richard Wilhelm, Rabindranath Tagore, and Hermann Hessee.

Hermann Keyserling was a heriditary Count from the Baltic country of Estonia. His families position and estate in Estonia went back centuries, to the early days when Estonia first became a province of Germany. One of his ancestors is the Count Keyserling who commissioned Bach to create the Brandenberg concertos.

http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/count.html

*On Darmstadt see last post of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=883834#post883834

:gnorsi:

[Musicology]

When the musical career of G.F. Handel was being invented for the glory of the elites of the British Empire at Hamburg, later in Venice, Rome and of course London (with the assistance of the Elector of Hanover, dignataries of Italy, more than 6 Roman Catholic Cardinals in Rome and Venice and a dozen convenient patronising aristocrats of the British Empire - themselves close associates of Rome, plus the input of numerous Italian opera composers whose names are today almost unknown and whose contribution to 'Handel's' music is still to this day overlooked - and at a time when tens of thousands of non-Catholics were still being forcibly evicted from their own homes in the city of Salzburg for no other crime than not being Roman Catholic ) - and with even more help from the fraternity members of the Privy Council of England itself) - then, over the decades, the history of music (so-called) was about to be 'excised' and grossly invented. By none other than those who invented 'history' themselves. By wholesale invention and wholesale omission of entire musical careers. To the point where a stunned Viennese audience finally (and reluctantly) agreed to stage the first performance of a musical work of J.S. Bach in their capital city, in 1847 (nearly a century after the composer's death). And not without complaint. A strange pattern of behaviour matched only by London itself, by Italy, and by the rest of musical Europe.

'Vienna, city of music, and of musical amnesia'.

[yanni]

When "Brandenburg" is mentioned, Handel comes automatically to mind-his birthpalce-instead of JSBach. The two, both protestants, were born the same year too and I have yet to see an answer to the question 'why Bach wrote the Brandenburg concertos and not Handel?'.

But my focus in this thread is the manufacture of JSBach by youknowwho (G.Cocchi and aliases, ie Wieland, WFBach, JCBach, Koch, Keyserlingk....and Pierre Michel Hennin).

Salute!

Pierre Michel Hennin has already been identified as one of Gioachino Cocchi's many aliases (including Comte de Saint Germain and Johann Christian Bach among others) but where is the evidence that he was somehow involved in Johann Sebastian Bach's "manufacture" or that he had something to do with the socalled "Bach" or "Goldberg" variations?

JSBach's "relations" to "Cocceji-Koch-Cocchi" have already been outlined in "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" (where JS Bach's Koch associates have been briefly mentioned).

With regard to Cocchi-Koch's involvement in the Variations as well, here is a short selection from various sources answering both above questions:

We know from Bach's nephew and private secretary, Johann Elias Bach, that in 1739 Weiss visited Bach in Leipzig, together with Johann Christian Bach, and over the course of several weeks, 'extra special' music was heard in the Bach household. [1.11]

Fracois Algarotti Le 20 septembre 1739, il se rendit à Rheinsberg, avec lord Baltimore, pour voir le Prince royal,I-a qui dès lors lui accorda son amitié, et entra en correspondance avec lui. Immédiatement après son avénement, Frédéric l'appela à sa cour, le distingua de toute manière,I-b le nomma comte, le 20 décembre 1740, et, au mois d'avril 1747, chambellan et chevalier de l'ordre pour le mérite.

In 1741, at the age of 56, Bach visited Berlin for the first time, and discussed with his son, C.P.E. (Emanuel) Bach, Frederick’s harpsichordist, the situation with the new king. Immediately upon his return to Leipzig, in deliberations with his key political supporter and strategist, Count Keyserling, Bach launched the intensive project that occupied his last decade—stretching dimensionalities with fugal puzzles, and pedagogically displaying the steps involved in expanding one’s mind. When Bach composed his “Goldberg Variations”—named for Count Keyserling’s keyboardist, Johann Gottlieb Goldberg—Bach also provided a series of canons which took the thematic idea under consideration,

Nach älteren Ausgaben von „Groves Dictionary of Music“ (3. Aufl. 1938) ist derjenige, der ca. 1745 in London Musik unter dem Namen St. Germain veröffentlichte, der italienische Komponist und Violinist Giovannini, bekannt als Autor von „Willst du dein Herz mir schenken“ im Notenbüchlein der Anna Magdalena Bach*. Er lebte seit 1740 in Berlin und starb 1782. Dies scheint auf einer Verwechslung zu beruhen, die zuerst in einem Künstler-Lexikon von Gerber 1812 unterlaufen war[17]. In London trug Saint-Germain unter anderem einige Arien für die mäßig erfolgreiche Oper des italienischen Opernkomponisten Brivio bei (arrangiert von Geminiani), die die Samstage vom 9. Februar bis 20. April 1745 im Haymarket Theater aufgeführt wurde. Er studierte dabei auch einige Lieder mit der Sängerin Giulia Frasi ein. Bei einigen Privatkonzerten sang Saint Germain auch selbst. Lady Jemima Grey ist von seinem Stil, der Emotionen sehr plastisch zum Ausdruck bringt, und seiner schwachen Stimme nicht sehr erbaut: His manner is beyond any description.

(Translation of german text: "As per Grove dictionary of Music (3rd edition 1938) the man who played music ca.1745 in London under the name of Saint Germain was the italian composer and violinist Giovannini, known author of "Will you give me your heart?" in the notebook of Anna Magdalena Bach. He lived as from 1740 in Berlin and died 1782**.This tends to clarify a relative mixup in Gerber's Artists-Lexicon of 1812. In London Saint Germain presented among others his own arias for the very popular opera L'incostanza delusa of italian composer Brivio (arranged by Geminiani) staged Saturdays from February 9th to April 20th 1745*** in Haymarket theater..." etc.)

But we have already established elsewhere that Brivio was Cocchi/Saint Germain (See: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=873911 post 96) ie Gerber was propably trying to say something close to the truth in 1812(!) and Grove covered up in 1938!

Furthermore:

A separate research supports "Kaiserling" or "Keyserlingk" (Wieland's, CPEBach's and or JCBach's alleged relative input to Forkel for his tale on "Bach's" variations) as yet another Cocchi alias or later "invention", the parallel diplomatic careers of Hennin and Keyserlingk being remarkably similar, "Keyserlingk" taken off circulation (his "death" in 1764) following Poniatowski's coronation in Poland as follows:

Herman Karl von Keyserling envoy extraordinary (poseł nadzwyczajny) and minister plenipotentiary (minister pełnomocny) 1763 to 30th September 1764(his death).

Hennin exerçait les fonctions de Résident de France à Varsovie depuis le mois de décembre 1763; il dut ensuite quitter la Pologne, sans doute à la suite de la pression exercée par le parti russe triomphant. Selon le Repertorium (tome 3, p. 130), il est parti le 18 octobre 1764 ou peut-être le 16 juillet.

There is much more evidence available (on Cocceji, Collini, Hennin, Wieland=Rousseau, Grimm, Collini, Voltaire etc) for the period and beyond, some already presented, to support all above.

Finally, on "a" (of irish descent apparently) Lord Baltimore, Algarotti (propably another alias of Cocchi) and how history is written, see Thomas Carlyle relative 1858 letter here: http://carlyleletters.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/lt-18580318-TC-JN-01




:patriot:



*Anna Magdalena was allegedly ill at the time (1741).

**1782 is the year Johann Christian Bach "died" in London.

***Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole writes: "He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible."

Cocchi's other alias, Gluck: In 1745, Gluck left Italy for London, where he had been asked to be house composer at the King’s Theatre. He gave two operas there and played two concerts on the musical glasses. He may also have met Handel, who is supposed to have said of the younger composer, “He knows no more of counterpoint than my cook.” Gluck’s London sojourn was short, as he was in Dresden by June 1747, composing operas for and possibly singing with a traveling opera troupe run by Pietro Mingotti

Vaneschi,author of L'Incostanza's lyrics (with Saint Germain supplying the music),cooperated immediately after with Gluck as above.

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

You have been in a forest so long you cannot see the wood for the trees. Why not read a biography or two on the life of G.F. Handel ? For example ? Or why not read the Italian background to Handel's early and later career and its patronage by leading papal secretaries and by a string of cardinals, all of whom were members of fraternities ? This too is irrelevant, right ? It will then become crystal clear Handel's career was stage managed from the virtual start. Even before he left Germany. Since the first 3 'Handel' operas were not his and were disputed even before he left Germany. And was then feted and celebrated by the cardinals of Rome, no less ! Handel the 'Lutheran' composer being wined and dined by occultists in Venice and Rome, by leading managers of music in Italy, by the Guelph faction in Hanover (who created and manipulated their takeover of the monarchy in England in the early 18th century) ! Does this not strike you as being an odd series of facts ? As being strange ? At a time when entire cities in Austria and in Germany were being cleared of non-Catholic residents ? I mean, at what point, Yanni, do the facts of history start to mean anything in the history of music ? All of Handel's early career was being deliberately stage managed. With the connivance of the Elector of Hanover -soon to be king of England. And his family and elites. Plus the elites of Rome and Venice. As usual. The same G.F. Handel who somehow could not once meet Bach, though he tried 3 times in succession to meet him and may even have written the English Suites for him ? And without a single reference in Handel to Bach ! Nor elsewhere in music publications or references of the time. Does it not seem, when you read the record of Handel's early, middle and late career that he and his reputation were being invented for the glory of a British Empire with the musical assistance of various Italian composers, now married to the success of this recently arrived Hanoverian dynasty, who had taken over England (with the full connivance of Rome and the Venetians) ?

You speak of Cocchi. Well, may I suggest you do some reading of Cocchi and Handel. That clan were in close association with the musical network already described. By correspondence. If you cannot find the evidence just ask me. In Venice and again in Rome. They (the Cocchi clan) were part of Handel's Italian experience. (As they were later with Mozart's arrival in London).

You suggest Handel may have written the 'Brandenburg Concertos'. Care to provide us with a shred of evidence ? The early works of Handel consist of precisely what ? When, in fact, the celebrity was to be entirely that of a Rome patronised Handel. Aided and abetted by English aristocrats loyal to Rome themselves. When Bach, as already said, was virtually unknown to the musical public of Europe for a century after his death, even of England, and remained unperformed and unpublished until well in to the 19th century - this with so few exceptions it becomes almost laughable.

The best criticism of Bach would be to produce some evidence, don't you think ? Since, tons of evidence shows the scale of political and ecclesiastical intrigue in making the careers of Handel and Mozart but none at all with J.S. Bach.

Maybe you are hoping if enough 'mud' is thrown some will stick ? Although, in plain sight, is as said evidence of collusion, manipulation, and fraternal invention (wholesale) in the English career of G.F. Handel, in that of W.A. Mozart and so many others. Amnesia gives way to double vision and leads to eventual deafness. But why bring Beethoven into our conversation ? (LOL)

Regards

[yanni]

I never suggested "Handel may have written the Brandenbourg concertos" as you write (he did however, if you believe his story as it still reads), I merely quoted a "wise" Keyserlingk in fact (author of "many bestsellers" that promoted "our" englightment thru budhism-not a bad idea afterall-between WWI and II) who claimed his Keyserlingk ancestor commissioned Bach for the Brandenburg concertos as well, ie possibly implying that Handel and Bach were one and the same (propably true but not in the subject other than sharing a common odour, hence the quote).

My focus and the subject of this thread are "The socalled Bach variations" and it's quite obvious you select to avoid it, escaping via Handel, instead of disputing -or even commenting upon-my modest presentation of findings, a collage from various sources.

Feel free to present any documents available on Cocchi, including any eventual correspondence with Handel!!

You say "a forest", I insist on "a pile of Grove-ling garbage" in urgent need of processing.

BTW Do you see any link of "Lord Baltimore's" 1739 visit to prince, soon after Kaiser, Frederick of Prussia and events "across the pond" that followed?

I do!

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I can assure you (and have said this many times) that the career of the Cocchi clan was associated with the Holy Roman Empire domination of opera and the musical scene. And it included association with major church and secular leaders from before the time of Handel, during Handel's time, and beyond.

Cocchi's were part of that fraternal network.

I cannot take part in your thread because I do not understand, exactly, what the 'puzzle' is, let alone the 'solution'.

Yanni,

I can assure you (and have said this many times) that the career of the Cocchi clan was associated with the Holy Roman Empire domination of opera and the musical scene. And it included association with major church and secular leaders from before the time of Handel, during Handel's time, and beyond.

Cocchi's were part of that fraternal network.

[yanni]

Obviously "Thinking through singing" doesn't always work, Robert. To reinforce your higher chakras, you should perhaps try Keyserlingk's http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/school.html.

One of their founders (Hermann or his son Arnold) was Reichschancellor's Bismarck's grandson!

Call again when ready.

Regards.

Quoting Wikipedia on Thomas Carlyle's relative (to the above) work:

His last major work was the epic life of Frederick the Great (1858–1865). In this Carlyle tried to show how a heroic leader can forge a state, and help create a new moral culture for a nation. For Carlyle, Frederick epitomized the transition from the liberal Enlightenment ideals of the eighteenth century to a new modern culture of spiritual dynamism: embodied by Germany, its thought and its polity. The book is most famous for its vivid, arguably very biased, portrayal of Frederick's battles, in which Carlyle communicated his vision of almost overwhelming chaos mastered by leadership of genius. However, the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments. Its mixed reception also contributed to Carlyle's decreased literary output.

He should have studied Budha instead as well!

[stlukesguild]

the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments.

One might suspect that Carlyle wasn't the only one so afflicted.:sosp:

[Musicology]

All we need are a few icons. Secularised, of course ! Who will dominate our cultural, academic and even musical landscape. Created by and presided over by the same elites. Providing us with our 'education'. Drip-fed to us by the experts of culture through the music industry as we continue our lives on Easter Island, west of Chile, in the South Atlantic. And, as for the facts of history, these to be 'sanitised' (as usual) with the usual suppression of 99.9% of reality. Mission accomplished.

If facts are inconvenient we can always watch 'Amadeus', whose trailer says, 'Everything you've heard is true'.

This process qualifies us to be described as 'educated', 'musical', and 'cultured', and we may take our place in polite company at cucumber sandwich parties sponsored by the Baron of Monrovia, the Duchess of Venice, and by the unelected patrons of our dynastic feudal system.

It has been well said that every civilization defines itself by the myths to which it subscribes. I see no reason to doubt this. Meanwhile, the never ending war on error continues, chocolate rations are about to be increased, and razor blades remain in short supply. You will pardon the shortness of this post. I am too busy bailing out the corporate bankers of London. And trying to avoid walking in to the lamp-posts of our musical history.


:rofl:

Robert

Au contraire, Mme ! I have never been more happy, more content. There is more culture in the growing of a carrot or a potato than in any 'Mozart' symphony. I consider compost to be of more cosmic significance than the 'great' composers.


the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments.

One might suspect that Carlyle wasn't the only one so afflicted.:sosp:

[yanni]

Easter islands were in the South Pacific last time I looked.

Interesting story, how the natives wellcomed "free trade" in 1722:

They fought each other to death but before they vanished (sometime late 18th cent) they-at least-pulled down all their idols-false prophets(statues erected with great pain to the memory of their ancestors).

How wise of you to insist on growing organic potatoes and carrots (from now on), Robert.

Regards.



All we need are a few icons. Secularised, of course ! Who will dominate our cultural, academic and even musical landscape. Created by and presided over by the same elites. Providing us with our 'education'. Drip-fed to us by the experts of culture through the music industry as we continue our lives on Easter Island, west of Chile, in the South Atlantic. And, as for the facts of history, these to be 'sanitised' (as usual) with the usual suppression of 99.9% of reality. Mission accomplished.

If facts are inconvenient we can always watch 'Amadeus', whose trailer says, 'Everything you've heard is true'.

This process qualifies us to be described as 'educated', 'musical', and 'cultured', and we may take our place in polite company at cucumber sandwich parties sponsored by the Baron of Monrovia, the Duchess of Venice, and by the unelected patrons of our dynastic feudal system.

It has been well said that every civilization defines itself by the myths to which it subscribes. I see no reason to doubt this. Meanwhile, the never ending war on error continues, chocolate rations are about to be increased, and razor blades remain in short supply. You will pardon the shortness of this post. I am too busy bailing out the corporate bankers of London. And trying to avoid walking in to the lamp-posts of our musical history.


:rofl:

Robert

[Musicology]

Yes, that was before they were transfered to Vienna.

Last I heard all nations were in favour of 'free' trade, at a price, of course !!!!!

And yes, carrots and potatoes are more important than 'great' composers. I have become a compositor myself.

Regards



Easter islands were in the South Pacific last time I looked.

Interesting story, how the natives wellcomed "free trade" in 1722:

They fought each other to death but before they vanished (sometime late 18th cent) they-at least-pulled down all their idols-false prophets(statues erected with great pain to the memory of their ancestors).

How wise of you to insist on growing organic potatoes and carrots (from now on), Robert.

Regards.

[yanni]

Yes, Vienna of course, rulers of the seven seas for the past few centuries, great sailors and shipping magnates, famous free traders with a flare for music (excluding the one and only Bach).

Can you recommend a good book on this interesting-and very original-subject?

Regards.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:A_Dictionary_of_Music_and_Musicians_vol_4.djv u/664

GIOVANNINI, a name interesting in musical history solely on account of the part it plays in the discussion concerning the song 'Willst du dein Herz mir schenken,' which for many years was attributed to Sebastian Bach. The song appears in the larger of the two music books of Anna Magdalena Bach, written on two leaves now loose, but evidently once belonging to the volume, in which they occur after p. in. The outer page of the first leaf bears the title ' Aria di Govannini ' (sic) the song itself appearing on the two interior pages. As a copy of the song ' Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen ' is written on the outer page of the second leaf, it has been considered that the contents of these pages were contemporary with the rest of the book, and Zelter, into whose hands the volume came from C. P. E. Bach, hazarded the conjecture that the song was by Bach himself, that the Italian name was the equivalent of the composer's first name, and that the copy was made partly by Anna Magdalena herself. Zelter's theory became fixed in the public mind as a certainty, since a play by Ernst Leistner and a novel by A. E. Brach- vogel made the composition of the song an incident in the love-story of Bach ; and even at the present day the question can hardly be taken as settled. Forkel refused from the first to believe in its authenticity, judging it from internal evidence, but Dr. W. Rust has adopted Zelter's theory, and has even gone so far as to assert that some of the bass notes are in the composer's autograph. (Bach-Gesellschaft, vol. xx. i. p. 15.) More recently, however, strong evidence has been brought which may be taken as proving the song to be the composition of an actual Giovannini, whose name appears in Ger- ber's Lexicon as that of an Italian violinist and composer who lived chiefly in Berlin from 1740 until his death in 1782. In the same writer's 'Neues Lexicon' (1812-1814) the additional in- formation is given that about 1745 he went to London, and produced, under the pseudonym of the Count of St. Germaine, a pasticcio entitled 'L'Incostanza delusa' in which the airs were much admired. He also published some violin solos under the same name. Dr. Spitta, in his excellent resume* of the question (J. S. Bach, vol. iii. p. 661, etc., English edition), tells us further that songs by Giovannini are included in Graefe's Odensammlung (1741 and 1743) two of which were since published in Lindner's 'Geschichte des deutschen Liedes,' etc. (1871). These are said to show a strong resemblance to the style of Willst du dein Herz mir schenken,' and there seems no longer any reasonable doubt that this Giovannini is the real composer. ^ The external evidence quite admits the possibility of this, as the book may very probably have come into other hands after the death of Anna Magdalena Bach, and so competent a critic as Dr. Spitta sees no reason to endorse Dr. Bust's opinion that some of the notes are in Bach's handwriting; while from internal evidence it might well be thought that no musician who had even a slight acquaintance with Bach's work could ever suspect it to be by him

How true!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8

[Musicology]

Yanni,

If you had bothered to check you would know songs by various composers are named in the two music books of Anna Magdelena Bach. There is no secret about this. And never has been. Others are not named. These books contain various vocal works that are acknowledged to be by various composers and also songs by her husband. Is this difficult ?

In the meantime and purely as a musical 'divertimento' - :cheers2: with some expertise in the invention department -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=SGNxFbeM6DU&feature=related

[yanni]

Alone could see the phantom in the skies

(Al Aaraaf, EAPoe)

Your matten augen don't see "no secret about it" because they refuse to read the contents of my quote on "Gioavannini" from Wikisource which (contents) clearly leave the subject (Anna Magdalena's mysterious liaison with "a" count of Saint Germaine +new "missing Koch leaves"*) open for all kinds of interpretations:

...a play by Ernst Leistner and a novel by A. E. Brachvogel made the composition of the song an incident in the lovestory of Bach ; and even at the present day the question can hardly be taken as settled. Forkel refused from the first to believe in its authenticity...

Dr. Spitta sees no reason to endorse Dr. Bust's opinion that some of the notes are in Bach's handwriting; while from internal evidence it might well be thought that no musician who had even a slight acquaintance with Bach's work could ever suspect it to be by him



But your divertimento distracted me from trying to learn more about Vienna's leading role in 18th century shipping and free trade history.

Any good book on the subject?

Thanks.

*Only briefly mentioned in "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" on missing music autographs from Beethoven's opus as well.

Having just included relevant data in my timeline, I just wish to add that the assumption made previously on Bach and Handel being one and the same person is an assumption no more.

JS Bach did not die in Germany, he just returned to London as Handel to die later (1758 or 1759) and be burried in Westminster Abbey (as per Wikipedia). The question 'what was "their" actual identity?' is of great interest.

Here is a short timeline abstract:

Durazzo Marchese*(detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, Ministro Residente della Repubblica di Genova a Vienna dal 21-IX-1749 (data di presentazione delle Credenziali) al maggio del 1752,

Pierre-Michel Hennin*obtint le 18 novembre1749 de M. de Puisieulx, ministre des Affaires étrangères, la...(Le Parlement - 1748)

November 1749 Condillac*in Grenoble learns of his appointment to the Berlin Academy of sciences from....Jean D'Alembert: Science and the Enlightenment Από τον/την Thomas L. Hankins....before the official letter of Maupertuis reached him

Rousseau*apporte son soutien à Diderot, emprisonné à la suite de la Lettre sur les aveugles à l’usage de ceux qui voient en 1749.

Maupertuis, the French President of the Academy of Berlin, may have been influential in securing Condillac’s election to the Academy in 1749. Condillac wrote to him on Christmas Day 1749 to express his pleasure and gratitude at being elected to that body. Their correspondence corrects the mistaken later date of Condillac’s election given by Puchesse.6In the letter Condillac said that it was a friend, M. d’Alembert, who had given him the news.

1750

Cocchi La Gismonda (spr.1750 Napoli F)

Giacomo Durazzo* Spouse: Weissen Wolf Ernestine Aloisia Ungnad Von Family Marriage: 17 MAR 1750 Wien, Wien, Austria

In the same year (1750) in which Turgot traced an outline of historical Progress at the Sorbonne, Rousseau*laid before the Academy of Dijon a theory of historical Regress. This Academy had offered a prize for the best essay on the question whether the revival of sciences and arts had contributed to the improvement of morals. The prize was awarded to Rousseau.

Voltaire He left Paris June 15th, and reached, July 10th, Sans-Souci, near Potsdam, the country place of the king, seventeen miles from Berlin. (1750-1753 Voltaire is a guest of Frederic)

JSBach dies 28th July 1750

In August 1750, on a journey back from Germany to London, Handel was seriously injured in a carriage accident between The Hague and Haarlem in the Netherlands.[5]:[63] He died some eight years later in 1759 in London, at the age of 74, with his last attended performance being his own Messiah.More than three thousand mourners attended his funeral, which was given full state honours, and he was buried in Westminster Abbey.[39]:[60]Handel never married, and kept his personal life private. He left a sizable estate at his death, worth £20,000, the bulk of which he bequeathed to a niece in Germany, with additional gifts to his other relations, servants, friends and favourite charities

August 25th, 1750 Collini* is in Berlin with the Barberinas and Voltaire

In two more letters in 1750 to Maupertuis, Condillac refers to d’Alembert, saying in a postscript to that of 12 August from Segrez, “We shall just make one parcel of our letters, M. d’Alembert and I: we are at the home of Monsieur the Marquis d’Argenson where one meets the best society” (Condillac, Oeuvres de Condillac, 2:535). D’Alembert was known to all as the wittiest of guests, so those later writers who have wished to show Condillac as dry, retiring and boring have to explain away their pleasure in each other’s company. Marmontel, speaking of Mme Geoffrin’s salon wrote, “Of that gathering, the gayest, most animated man, the most amusing in his gaiety, was d’Alembert. . . he made one forget in him the philosopher and scholar, to see only the lovable individual” (Marmontel, Mémoires, 1:300).

September 15th, 1750, Gluck*married Maria Anna Pergin

Gluck* Ezio (carn.1750 Praha)

Gioac.Cocchi Siroe (carn.1750 Venezia SGG) , La mascherata (27.12.1750 Venezia SC)

*Aliases of Gioachino Cocchi aka Le comte de Saint Germain.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Obsurantism has its followers. For myself, I much prefer to know (as I do) that Bach's music, that of Handel, and that of Gluck, are completely different. But why let simple facts such as these get in the way of a good story ?

Regards

Robert

[yanni]

Still waiting for your input on "Vienna, master of the Seven Seas" Robert.

In the meantime, I am certain you'll never again attribute the Brandenburg concertos to Handel (as you did previously in this thread) and can but express the hope you'll first exchange "Gluck" with more concrete facts on the subject (on Handel and Bach being the same man) and then ONLY accompany your new answer with irony if you must.

A matter of aesthetics, you see.

To refresh your history:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35779&page=2

and

http://www.uncg.edu/gar/courses/lixl/380BLS/380Unit1/Lesson1OldEurope_files/VoltaireAndFredericktheGreat.htm

Now tell me all you know about Handel's relations to Antonio Cocchi and -another 18th century puzzle-Telemann and their compositions.

Regards

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

[yanni]

Good natured, certainly Gilliat... 'xcept for the devil in the details we call "science"!

[Musicology]

Hi there Gilliat,

Yes, it's good natured. Yanni wants us to believe J.S. Bach didn't die in 1750 but became another composer. This neatly diverts us from the facts surrounding G.F. Handel's close association with half a dozen cardinals of the Roman Church in Rome and Venice (quite an achievement for a Lutheran from Germany in the early 18th century, you may agree) and Handel's close association with the occultist fraternities who polluted the entire music industry at the time of the so-called 'Enlightenment'. Since the manufacture of 'great' composers is not a new thing but is, in fact, the general rule in the 18th century. In the case of Handel fully supported by the aristocrats of the British Empire, themselves closely allied with Rome.

And, in the meantime -some Vitamin C (lol)

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ZFKI6RaG4ds&feature=related



Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

[MarkBastable]

It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

[yanni]

Burkas are apparently an essential face saving accessory not just in the muslim world.

...plus a blindfold is strongly suggested!

Christian Bach, on the other hand, is full of the new

idea. His life itself may well claim attention. It is

sufficiently remarkable that he almost alone of the great

Bach family which had for generations played a part

in the development of music in Germany, and was to

play such a part there for many years to come, broke

the traditions of his fathers, went to Italy for eight

years, even became a Catholic, and finally decided to

pass the last twenty years of his life in London. Though

the many stories of his extravagances and dissipations

have been most unrighteously exaggerated, he was none

the less of a gay, lighthearted and pleasure-loving na-

ture which is in sharp contrast to the graver and more

pious dispositions of his ancestors.

"The art of music : a comprehensive library of information for music lovers and musicians"

[Musicology]

MarkBastable,

For an awful moment I was convinced you were falling head over heels in love with your own reflected lipstick. But your heart is elsewhere.

Here it is !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQGJyILPsw

and here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=IHailsYLU9g&feature=related



Regards



It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

[yanni]

Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1lxbkVw&feature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

[Musicology]

Yanni,

As a consumer of textbooks on musical history have you ever wondered why virtually every area of human activity can be and obviously has been corrupted (areas such as politics, banking, commerce, the mass media, history books etc) but not ever the 'history of music' ? Does it ever occur to you that what you have been reading/consuming in matters of musical history has been 'managed' from the start ? Grossly managed. Wholesale ? And if not, why ?

The legend of Mozart copying down from memory a mass in Rome is a classic example. It is sheer nonsense. Of course it is. It's more than nonsense. It's a pack of lies. The truth is a score of the Allegri Miserere was available to the Mozarts in Vienna and elsewhere long before they ever got to Rome. The truth is Mozart and his father heard the work not once, but twice, right there in Rome. The truth is the manuscript scribbled down by Mozart was a publicity stunt that has disappeared. Nobody has ever studied it. The truth is this 'Mozart' version has never been seen nor once catalogued in all the works of 'Mozart' over the past 200 years, even as an arrangement. Which is strange if that achievement really plays such a part in his reputation, don't you agree ? The truth is the truth is not required in the Mozart industry. The truth is Charles Burney was a fraternity member in close contact with other fraternity members in Germany. For years. A stooge, in fact, of the British Empire. Whose elites were loyal to Rome. Whose daughter (and himself) were sponsored and even employed by the British elite families. The truth is Charles Burney was a notorious faker and liar. The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.

As for Felix Mendelssohn, you should realise that amongst his early 'helpers' was none other than Wolfgang von Goethe. An Illuminati member. And that Mendelssohn's own family were related to the Arnsteins of Vienna, at whose home Mozart first stayed on his arrival in Vienna in the 1780's. Just a coincidence, of course. In point of fact early works by Felix Mendelssohn include several that are NOT by Mendelssohn. Take, for example, the early Clarinet Sonata of the same 'Mendelssohn'. It has an entire movement stolen from a sonata by the virtually unknown Cartellieri. And how was that possible ? Well, Goethe was a close friend of Cartellieri's employer in Bohemia. And visited there several times. Cartellieri was involved after Mozart's death in preparing 'Mozart' operas for their eventual first publication. And Cartellieri remains, today, virtually unknown. As do countless others. Goethe was also a great supporter of the Mozart myth, as you may know.

As for JC Bach, he too was supported by the British Empire. And was from the time he first became associated with Hamburg. (A base for the East India Company in Germany, by the way). Britain at that time funding areas of Germany secretly. Including Bonn. And Hanover. Signor Cocchi would confirm this to you.

You should ask G.F. Handel about the musical miracles that are associated with Hamburg. Handel was recruited for the service of the same British Empire while there in Hamburg. That's where he was invited to Italy. And the house of Hanover, as you may know, became the kings of Britain in the early 18th century with George 1st. Just a coincidence, of course. The Guelph movement were very pleased with this German 'genius' and he and his music had already received the full approval and great assistance of many cardinals in Rome and Venice. (Together with the music of various Italian comoposers). As you know. Just a coincidence of course. The fact the first 7 operas of 'Handel' are not actually by G.F. Handel is of course mere coincidence. Thus the illusion of a 'protestant' king of England was highly successful. The public believed it. The Hanoverian Guelphs now ruled. A brilliant public relations scam. Rome was very happy with this. A Rome itself infested with Venetian occultism.

As for the House of Hanover, it would never become involved in manufacturing the careers of 'great' composers. Would it ? In the case of Mozart the German text found on the 'autograph' of Le Nozze di Figaro (and made much later) was supplied by none other than Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Knigge ( 1752 – 1796), a man whose curious life included his direct association with the early Bavarian Illuminati and (far less known) the fact he was a civil servant in Bavaria whose family had been financially assisted by the British monarchy. Documents at the British Library show this clearly. Knigge coming from Hanover himself and associated with Hanover until he died. Very British stuff !

Below is a picture of the same Knigge in his Hanoverian uniform. Just a coincidence, of course.

Really, Yanni, the manufacture of 'great' composers is not an opinion but a plain fact. Hidden under the varnish of the music industry.

Nothing, Yanni, is quite what it seems in the 'history of music'. Well, almost -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=eJDZ27nLagU&feature=related


Regards



Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1lxbkVw&feature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

[yanni]

Telling me the obvious won't help in finding the solution to Handel/Bach real identity and links to the Kochs (in control of "things" then) who invented them to serve,as undercover agents and diplomats,their first Hanoverian Majesties, Kings George I&II.

Your "Krieger" (thread below) owes his existence to Johann Matheson (he wrote Krieger's basic biography, yet Matheson's own biography and music compositions and works is surpisingly "empty" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Mattheson and so -out of reach-is WIMA and its late founder, a Werner Icking, whose antique music archive is now in Texas(!) under a Christian Mondrup).

Matheson was a diplomat,composed seven or eight operas, wrote a music lexicon or two, left Hamburg at the same time as Handel (1722) after their alleged duel (hah-hah), looks like Handel, but is still offlimits.

Now tell me what you know about Handel's links to Antonio Cocchi and Georg Philipp Telemann who influenced, musically, JSBach's alleged sons much more than their shadowy father.

Telemann, the alleged "almost" Thomaskantor in Leipzig, 1722* (Bach's post), the one who later "almost" died shortly after Handel "almost" did(their 1754 correspondence- two letters only), who developed a new music notation method,just like-and simultaneously with -JJRousseau:

Neues musicalisches System (1742/3, published 1752).

In 1742 Rousseau moved definitively northward to Paris, carrying with him a new system of musical notation, a comedy, an opera, and a collection of poems.

Telemann, who was eversince "gardening" for the better part of his otherwise very productive life in diplomacy, just like Rousseau, his son.

Tele-man, who came from faraway!

Enjoy.

*Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 and 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings, where he met Isaac Newton with who he corresponded later on
http://www.vegetarisme.fr/Articles/i...?p=Cocchi.html

[Musicology]

Yanni,

One of the more remarkable 'coincidences' of musical history - you might care to examine the list of the members of the short-lived 'Korrespondierenden Sozietät der Musicalischen Wissenschaften' (Corresponding Society of the Musical Sciences) actually founded by young Mizler (actually managed by the Lucchesini clan and by others in 1738). (Lucchesinis being of course ecclesiastical elites in Rome and Marquis in Lucca before that). And why not consider the role of Leipzig University in the musical 'counter-reformation' and the many career problems Bach had because of them ? The chronological list of that Society's members over its less than 20 years including -

1738: G. de Lucchesini; Lorenz Christoph Mizler (permanent secretary); G.H. Bümler
1739: C.G. Schröter, Heinrich Bokemeyer, Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767), Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel (1690-1749)
1742: G.F. Lingke
1743: M. Spiess, G. Venzky
1745: Georg Frideric Handel (1685-1759), U. Weiss
1746: C.H. Graun
1747: J.S. Bach (1685-1750), Georg Andreas Sorge (1703-1778), Carl Heinrich Graun 1703/4-1759), J.P. Kunzen
1748: Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (c1670-1746)
1751: J.C. Winter
1752: J.G. Kaltenbeck
1755: Leopold Mozart (1719-1787) (was invited to become its 20th member, but declined the invitation) - LOL !

Bach had refused association with Mizler's idea of that society for years. But by the late 1740's J.S. Bach had musical sons who faced the real possibility they would not find employment in their own careers. Music of J.S. Bach's kind was under great criticism, even in Leipzig. As you will know from a series of published complaints against it. The Lutheran Church found itself to be as divided in different ways as Rome itself. This was not good for the musical prospects of his sons. The natural thing for them to do was to get closer to the emerging cultural power of the British Empire. In Germany and England. Real as it was. And that's exactly what they did. The lure of money and popularity did the rest. Certainly with CPE Bach and JC Bach. You may also consider musical journalists with whom Leopold Mozart was associated, even before the time of Mozart's birth (in 1756).

Certainly, Telemann was in the same group as all the rest. He and his music was well known in Paris and he was far, far more extrovert with promoting his music than J.S. Bach. Telemann was a very different kind of man than Bach.

Rome wanted to snuff out the influence of Bach. So they showered all kinds of prizes on his sons. But they effectively shut down his music after his death, a few years later.

As far as Handel goes, it's not Bach who solves that. (He tried several times to meet Handel, as you know). Handel's career in Germany was artificially favoured from the start. Lawyers tend to do that. He went from obscurity to international fame with the full patronage of Rome (later, that of the British Empire aristocrats - themselves in league with Rome). The latest musical Manchurian Candidate would be invented in Hamburg, feted in Rome, and protected from the time of his arrival in England by British aristocats. With the input of various fine and today almost unknown Italian composers. Many of them based in London themselves.

I assure you members of the Cocchi were in close association with Handel and the ecclesiastical elites during his time in Italy. Although I don't immediately have the evidence to hand I will find it. Cocchis were of course fraternal managers of this nonsense. Even as recently as G. Cocchi and the boy Mozart in London as we've already said. It remains my view that this fraternity stuff hijacked the history of music. And that so much of music and musical achievement of the 18th century is pure fiction - manufactured like most of the rest. The truth obscured under the rubble on which the icons were built.

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8cN9GjL4q_o&feature=related&q=bach%20brandenburg

Consider works such as S. Taylor's 'The Huge Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to the works of other Composers' (Cambridge, 1906)

And what of this ? 3 days before his 1702 birthday G.F. Handel matriculated as a law student of the University of Halle. In that same year following his father's wishes, Handel enrolled to study civil law at the University of Halle but is also said to have been appointment in some capacity as an organist at the local Protestant cathedral. After less than a year Handel seems to have been very unsatisfied with organ playing since in 1703, he somehow moved to Hamburg, accepting a position as a violinist and harpsichordist in the opera house of the city. His teacher on both instruments is unknown. In any event he there met characters such as none other than Johann Mattheson, Christoph Graupner, and Reinhard Keiser and two operas, 'Almira' and 'Nero' were produced in 1705 over which Handel's authorship has never been settled. Some two years after this he somehow met the Italian Gian Gastone de Medici and is credited with having produced another two operas, 'Daphne' and 'Florindo' in 1708 though it remains strangely unclear if Handel even directed these performances himself in the Oper am Gansemarkt.

In 1706 Handel travelled for the first time to Italy at the invitation the same Gian Gastone de' Medici, whom he had met as long ago as 1703/1704 in Hamburg. Ferdinando, who had succeeded in making Florence the musical capital of Italy, was attracting the leading talents of his day and had a keen interest in opera. There Handel met librettist Antonio Salvi, with whom he would collaborate. Handel left for Rome and, as opera was temporarily banned there he composed sacred music for the Roman Catholic Clergy. Including the famous Dixit Dominus (1707) He is also credited with composing many cantatas in pastoral style for musical gatherings in the palace of no less than 3 Roman Cardinals Pietro Ottoboni, Benedetto Pamphili and Carlo Colonna. Two oratorios, 'La Resurrezione' and 'Il Trionfo del Tempo' are said to have been produced in a private setting for Ruspoli and Ottoboni in 1709 and 1710, respectively. Rodrigo, his first immature, but all-Italian opera, had been produced in the Cocomero theatre in Florence in 1707. 'Agrippina' was first produced in 1709 at Teatro San Giovanni Grisostomo, the prettiest theatre at Venice, owned by the Grimani's. That opera, with a libretto by another Roman Catholic cardinal (Vincenzo Grimani) ran for an unprecedented 27 performances. It showed remarkable maturity and certainly established Handel's reputation as a composer of opera. The audience, thunderstruck with the grandeur and sublimity of his style applauded for Il caro Sassone. He also visited London for the first time in 1710.

In the middle of June 1710 G.F. Handel next entered the service of the Elector of Hanover in Germany and was for the next 2 ½ years employed there as Kapellmeister. An event that was itself strange. But not as strange as his protracted absences from Hanover during most of this employment period. During which time he was for much of the time in Venice, Rome and London. Indeed, even his surviving payment records of Hanover are puzzling.

‘’Kapellmeister - George Friedrich Hendell - Kapellmeister

‘Mid-Summer 1710-Mid-Summer 1711’ - George Friedrich Hendell, Kapellmeister - 1000 Thalers

Mid-Summer 1711-Mid Summer 1712 - 1000 Thaler less deduction of 83 Thaler 12 Groschen

Midsummer 1712 - 500 Thaler for six months salary - finally paid in arrears in 1715

In London 1711 ‘Rinaldo’. In London again 1712. 1717 Employed by the Duke of Chandos

What is strange about this ? Well, Handel’s first appearance in London occurred within the time of his first year’s Hanover salary, from which no deductions were made. Nor was he even able to be in Hanover to collect his own salary in the middle of 1712.

In fact the circumstances surrounding Handel’s appointment as Kapellmeister at Hanover have always been described by those who have examined the subject to be ‘obscure’. Sources such as Chrysander only add to the strangeness by stating that both the existing Kapellmeister of Hanover, Steffani and Baron Kielmansegg were visiting Venice in early 1710 at the very same time as Handel. And, according to Kielmansegg’s family chronicles (published for the first time in the 20th century) Handel was offered the Hanover post of Kapellmeister while visiting Venice (‘Familien Chronik’ - Vienna 1910, P. 447).

After Handel’s return to Germany his speedy and ready acceptance as a music composing visitor at the musical court of Queen Anne in London (this coming several years before the accession of George 1st from Hanover) is again remarkable. Furthermore, his employment in Germany ended in June 1713. Almost a year and a half before the coronation of George as King of England.

And, as for music attributed to him during those years Handel was already being credited with having written music for the English court as early as 6th February 1711. For example, on the occasion of Queen Anne’s Birthday celebration. A report of that event states that -

‘The Queen’s birthday was observed with great solemnity, the court was extremely numerous and magnificent. The officers of state, foreign ministers, nobility and gentry, and particularly ladies, vying with each other as to who would most grace the occasion. Between one and two in the afternoon was performed a fine consort, being a dialogue in Italian, in Her Majesties praise, being set to music by the famous Mr Hendel, a Retainer at the court of Hanover in the post of Director of His Highness Chapel, and sung by Cavaliero Nicolini Grimaldi, and the other celebrated voices of the Italian opera, with which Her Majesty was extremely pleased’.

//

The attribution of music performed for a state ceremony in honour of the English queen by German composer from Hanover ( though sung in Italian) is also unusual in several senses. It marked a notable departure from well established convention. Records in London show in the years prior to 1711 show the music supplied for the birth celebrations of monarchs was only by English composers and sung to English texts provided by the English court Poet Laureate. And that’s not all. For the next 4 years (1711-15) this new Italianate arrangement continued - i.e. during the last 3 years of Queen Anne - and during the 1st year of George 1st’s own reign. (1715). There are no records of English commissions for musical odes and other music to be supplied to the English court by the court Poet Laureate during those years nor any for texts to be set by the resident London Master of the Queen’s Musik. Further mystifying Handel’s situation was the premiere of a 'Te Deum' that is traditionally attributed to him which was performed at St Paul’s Cathedral in London on 7th July 1713 - this only privately ‘attributed’ to Handel in a letter from Thomas Grote written to Hanover on 13th January that year (and still attributed to Handel today) although its premiere in London (widely reported in newspapers and journals of the time) say nothing of him being its composer. (They do, however, refer to Handel having been present at its rehearsals).

Again, one example from dozens -

Erba, Dionigi (d. Milan 1730). Italian composer. Related to the old noble Erba family originating at Como and thus to his contemporary, Cardinal Benedetto Erba Odescalchi, Archbishop of Milan. Eitner maintained they were brothers. From 1692 he was maestro di cappella of S Francesco, Milan, and from 1697 of S Maria presso S Celso there. The anthology in which his Cor triumpha exulta, respira appears also contains works by the Milanese composers Alessandro Besozzi (i), G.B. Brevi and Francesco Ballarotti, who collaborated on operas with Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though G.F. Handel did make a copy of it and borrowed copiously from it in his oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.

etc.

[yanni]

JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747, per you Mizler members list, explained thru political events-failed Stuart coup in Scotland: He could not very well appear as "Handel" again so he used "Bach").

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

quote from my timeline:

Hδndel’s notice in the score of ‘Jephta’: ‘Biss hierher komen den 13. Febr. 1751 verhindert worden wegen relaxation des gesichts meines linken auges’ (Got as far as this on Wednesday 13th February 1751, unable to go on owing to weakening of the sight in my left eye). He went to Cheltenham again until June 1751 (as reported inthe General Advertiser on June 15, 1751) [Deutsch, 1955]. After his return,Händel consulted Samuel Sharp, surgeon to Guy’s hospital, to undergo eye surgery. Sharp diagnosed ‘gutta serena’ (drop serene) which corresponds to the modern term of amaurosis, and which was then diagnosed in cases of ‘an abolition of the sight without any apparent cause or fault in the eyes’.

Of note: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/Katalogteile/isbn3_8055/_79/_14/artists_03.pdf mentions no eye problems of Bach between 1745-and the above first symptom following his accident in continental Europe.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The onus is on you to provide evidence of this. Not on anyone else. The music attributed to G.F. Handel is completely different from that of the music attributed to J.S. Bach. A child could see this. They were two different people.

As for the eyesight operation conducted on Bach and Handel by the same person (Taylor) this is a subject I have researched in detail. Taylor's association with the occultists of England (its ruling elites, Rome) and those of Rome/Venice being indisputable. In fact, Taylor was known as 'Cavaliere' Taylor and was an occulist to the papacy. If Bach and Handel were the same person why do both become members of Mizler's music society years apart ? No, it's nonsense, and you have to provide evidence instead of facts which clearly show the opposite. The operations to which you refer were NOT 'simultaneous'. They were years apart.


JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747 explained thru political events-Stuart rebellion in Scotland).

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

28th July 1750 : J. S. Bach (65) dies in Leipzig soon after an unsuccessful eye operation by Rome approved oculist, John Taylor.

3rd November 1752 : G.F. Handel has eye operation ("couching" -- a procedure to treat cataracts) by William Bromfield, Surgeon to the Princess of Wales, to restore his sight. The operation is a short-term success.

'Simultaneous' ? Different countries and completely different dates. Different surgeons.

:confused5:

And Yanni will now explain the following if Bach and Handel were the same person -


July 28, 1750
Leipzig
Death of J.S. Bach dies in Leipzig

July 31, 1750
Leipzig
Burial at Johanniskirche, Leipzig.

Aug 7, 1750
Leipzig
Election of Johann Gottlob Harrer as replacement for J.S. Bach at the Thomaskantor (other applicants for his position including C.P.E. Bach, A.F. Graun, J.L. Krebs, J.G. Görner. And J. Trier)

Oct 2, 1750
Leipzig
Installation of Johann Gottlob Harrer as Thomaskantor in replacement to the documented death of J.S. Bach.

In Handel's case his eye operations were apparently not successful, or at least not permanently. On August 17, 1752, (2 years after Bach's death) the General Advertiser noted, "We hear that George Frederick Handel, Esq; the celebrated Composer of Musick was siezed [sic] a few Day's ago with a Paralytic Disorder in his Head, which has deprived him of Sight." The same journal informs us on November 4th Handel had again been "couched" by William Bromfield (1713-1792). Again the improvement was at best transient. In the summer of 1758, (now 8 years after Bach's death !) G.F. Handel was "couched" for a third time, again unsuccessfully. The surgeon this time was the well-known, self-promoting quack, John Taylor.

Thus, fully 8 years after Bach's death G.F. Handel was still undergoing eye surgery (his 3rd operation).

A small puzzle for Yanni !

[yanni]

No puzzle at all, Robert:

Handel, as Bach, was succesfully operated by Taylor in 1750 for the first time and that's why he trusted Taylor to operate on him again in 1758.

If the two were different persons (who kept themselves well informed of eachother, as competitors), Handel would have known Bach's death because of eye surgery complications and would not have trusted Taylor.

See: http://archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/123/10/1427.pdf: Vol. 123 No. 10, October 2005, The Eyes of Johann Sebastian Bach , Richard H. C. Zegers, MD

The author is quite suspicious of Bach's alleged "death due to eye surgery complications". After tracing Bach's sole "sources" to CPEBach, WFBach and Forkel (he should also include "our" Koch imo)- and you and I know how "trustworthy" such sources are, don't we?- he concludes his article as follows:

Bach was buried anonymously, as was Mozart, 3 days after his death, in a grave without any obvious stone or mark, near the St Johannes Kirche in Leipzig. When the church was rebuilt in 1894, the alleged mortal remains of Bach were reburied in the church itself. After this church was heavily bombed during World War II, the alleged remains were moved to the St Thomas Kirche in Leipzig, where they still remain.
One can only speculate about the fate of this great composer. The only inarguable fact is the body of music Bach left us , sounding still as fresh today as it did the day he put it on paper. Whatever eye diseases Bach might have suffered during his life, they never stopped him from creating divine music

But you have still to tell me what you know of Handel's relations to Dr Antonio Cocchi (an eye specialist himself) focusing always on this same year of Handel/Bach's operation, death and resurection, 1750!

Check where Handel purchased his Rembrandt from, February 1750, to then make his will early June, return to Leipsig to die as Bach!

and another one for you:

Do you know of any musicologist who has ever compared similarities between Telemann's and Rousseau's new "music notation method"?

Regards.

[Musicology]

And what did Mrs Bach think about this ? All those years in Leipzig ? How about Bach's children. They too are sons of G.F.Handel, right ?

And who was the Kapellmeister of Leipzig during the last 20 years of Handel's life ?

It gets more interesting by the minute !!!

:confused5:

[yanni]

Handel's family life is somehow obscure (and Bach only existed as an alias of Johann Sebastian Koch, remember?).

His friend Weiss looked after Bach's Kappelmeister affairs propably. He too died in 1750-a month after "Bach did"-for real however I am afraid.



And what did Mrs Bach think about this ? All those years in Leipzig ? How about Bach's children. They too are sons of G.F.Handel, right ?

And who was the Kapellmeister of Leipzig during the last 20 years of Handel's life ?

It gets more interesting by the minute !!!

:confused5:

[Musicology]

1747 - 7th and 8th May - J.S. Bach visits the court of Frederick the Great at Potsdam and gives organ recital in the Heiliggeistkirche there the next day before a huge audience. Composes and publishes (September.) The Musical Offering. Joins Mizler's Society of Musical Sciences, June 1747, for which he composed the Canonic Variations (BWV869).

1747 - April, London - G.F. Handel personally rehearses and premieres 'Judas Maccabeus'. Performed 6 times in London during April and May of that same year.

Question -

Did G.F. Handel own a helicopter ?

???

[yanni]

Handel might have been present only in the April performances to then let conducting to a substitute (Algarotti? Frédéric le nomma au mois d'avril 1747, chambellan et chevalier de l'ordre pour le mérite or perhaps Antonio Cocchi himself-check him out!) .

As young Frederick's spy(?)* relative "evidence" is shaky at best. Bach's meeting with Frederick has been propably put first on record by CPEBach etc.

But do tell me about Cocchi-Telemann-Rousseau!

*Samuel Cocceji by 1747 he was Großkanzler (grand chancellor) of Prussia.

[Musicology]

What 'might' happen is that J.S. Bach could be Handel. That 'might' also be true. But there is not a shred of evidence of that either.

1747 is just one example. There are dozens. Who died in 1750 at Leipzig ? Because one thing is sure. The entire population of Leipzig were sure J.S. Bach had died. It was announced in the newspapers. It is recorded that he died and was buried. He is even succeeded by a new Kapellmeister. Is this most likely because the Kapellmeister Bach really died, or because he was G.F. Handel in disguise ?

And you have not told us who was doing the job of Kapellmeister in Leipzig while GF Handel was for years in London.

Did he take a helicopter trip to Leipzig every week for years ?

The answer, Yanni, is simple. JS Bach was JS Bach. And GF Handel was GF Handel. But the careers of both were closely related. One was a famous/international and iconic figure. Feted in Rome, Venice and across Europe. The other was a Kapellmeister whose music was basically suppressed for almost a century. Two very different men whose music is very, very different.

Handel's background I've already given. He is clearly being patronised by powerful elites in Rome and England, in Hamburg, and Hanover. The overwhelming evidence says so.

But if you can provide evidence to support your view, please do it. The two careers are contemporary. They are both (in theory) composers who should have been ignored by the Holy Roman Empire. Only one of them was. The other was, as said, a tool. And that tool was G.F. Handel. The sheer weight of the evidence clearly shows this. It shows nothing else. Unless you have some to provide. It's your theory, not mine. And it's for you to provide evidence, nobody else.

I think you are just plain wrong.

The elites of the time were determined that Handel (and not Bach) should be a celebrity, effectively blocking out Bach from any recognition, even in England and in lands where the Holy Roman Empire did not have open control. And that is exactly what happened. It fits exactly in to what actually happened. Bach was virtually unknown, even in England. For many decades after his own death. How did THAT happen ? It happened because the men then controlling music across Europe (even in England) wanted it that way. The prospect of Bach's music being widely known and appreciated filled them with dread. It was the one thing they could not afford to allow. What mattered was for them to cement the new idea of the Hanoverian rule of England. Of a superficial German/English alliance. What better than to patronise a 'great' German composer in G.F. Handel ? (The details of whose career would not be too closely scrutinised). And that's what happened. Time speaks volumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=omYQEkb1eF8&feature=related

[yanni]

If all your evidence in support of Handel being not the same man as Bach are the 1747 Judas Maccabeus performances (not allowing for an eventual trip to Potsdam May 7-8), then kindly provide dates of last two performances and evidence of Handel's relative presence.

http://ml.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/77/4/499 :

Handel’s Judas Maccabeus was performed three times till 8th April 1747 and there are advertisements for more, total six, the fourth and subsequent performances being announced as “with additions and a concerto” on April the 7th (footnote 3).

My sympathy in advance.


PS: Can't you read? I have already supplied you with two "Bach" substitutes for his alleged presence, invisible and insignificant as it was, as Thomaskantor in Leipsig: Leopold Weiss who died Oct 1750, and Algarotti. A third and a fourth alternative-as if any are now needed-were his "son" CPEBach, Frederick's "harpsicordist", and GPTelemann (whom you refuse to touch apparently) towering above Handel and Bach "both" at the time. WFMarpurg could have been a fifth candidate: He was Bach's first "creator" afterall.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I cannot entertain your fantasies much longer. Am too busy with other things. You can believe what you like. That's good. But if you wish to convince others you need to provide evidence, not possibilities. It's a failure you should recognise in your approach.

Thanks

Robert

[yanni]

I understand and sympathise still more:

Your last, much advertised, coup de grâce has proven itself to be yet another one of those miserable failures that we have all grown accustomed to by now.

You should have Handel'd the whole thing, starting with Mozart, with more care!

Bye!

[MarkBastable]

As a neutral watching from the sidelines, I have to say that I think that at this stage Musicology is slightly ahead on points, though yanni appears to have landed a couple of punches in places where M is vulnerable. If I were asked right now to take on board one or other of the offered theories, it would be too close to call. They're both well-presented and each has interesting aspects - but neither has yet shown itself to be unarguably the more convincing.

What I'd really like to see is a third party enter the fray - one who can argue for the more conventional view of history that both yanni and Musicology reject.

[Musicology]

It is a basic rule of any study that verifiable evidence is first presented in its support. So that it may be taken seriously. Without which we are wasting our time.

This basic requirement is the core, the foundation, of any academic study. Without it we can invent or imagine anything. Which is a nice game but has nothing to do with reality.

Leaving aside possibilities (which can exist without number) we are left with realities.

On what verifiable realities is Handel said to be J.S. Bach ? Care to name some ? None. None at all. It explains why Yanni refuses to tell us who was Kapellmeister at Leipzig when J.S. Bach was there and when G.F. Handel was living in England. That's not a great start, is it ? It's a sort of basic thing to consider, isn't it ? Does this failure of Yanni make his idea credible ? He ignores the fact that J.S. Bach died in 1750 and refuses to accept that his death in Leipzig that year is a documented, plain fact of recorded history. Are you beginning to see a pattern here ? In such a universe one can drift forever without providing actual, verifiable evidence. Such is the price of a fertile imagination based, as anyone can see, on no actual, verifiable evidence. He has got things completely upside down. And it shows. But I have been willing to consider it all the same.

Again, the fact that the music of Handel and the music of J.S. Bach are very, very different is a further case in point. Here too Yanni is completely silent.

Well, I have tried to entertain his idea. As usual. But you see I can't spend too much time on it.

Regards

[yanni]

Quoted from post 127 http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51451&page=9 :



The Puzzle of JS Bach's Kochs!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a puzzle in a puzzle, sort of)

Johann Sebastian's early years and musical heritage are still a mystery but the fact is, some bits and pieces of evidence managed to escape the eye and peek of musicology's hawks and, as it now turns out, Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were:

His first name was that of his other godfather, Johann Georg Koch, a forester in Eisenach....

Nothing is known for certain about Sebastian early years until 1693...

Bach was indefatigable in copying manuscripts to replace Ahles less adventurous repertory, aided by Johann Martin Schubart, the earliest of his many distinguished pupils, and Johann Sebastian Koch, his choir prefect

1734 wurde Johann Philipp Ostertag, vorher Konrektor am Gymnasium, zum Stadtpfarrer ernannt. Er wurde unterstützt von dem zum Stadtdiakon berufenen in Idstein geborenen Theologen Johann Sebastian Koch, der außerdem am Gymnasium noch einige Stunden Unterricht in der französischen Sprache erteilte.

Ostertag's mentor in "mystagogie" and only reputable biographer however, Wieland, 1802, claims Ostertag was born 1734: de.wikisource.org/.../ADB:Ostertag,_Johann_Philipp

...and as we remember writing not long ago....

...Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever....

...and Wieland was in...Zürich in the summer of 1752. After a few months, however, Bodmer felt himself as little in sympathy with Wieland as, two years earlier, he had felt himself with Klopstock, and the friends parted; but Wieland remained in Switzerland until 1760, spending the last year, at Bern where he obtained a position as private tutor. Here he became intimate with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's friend Julie de Bondeli.

IE

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...

and

...three cheers for the noble science of forestry-musicology!



-The Master Musiciens. Bach. Oxford University Press. Edited by Stanley Sadie.
-Bach, a biography by ES Terry
- http://www.pfarrverein-ekhn.de/web/p...eschichte.html

END of quote

Wieland (aka Rousseau, Gluck, W.C.Koch etc etc) confirms in 1802 that Johann Sebastian Koch, Bach's "choir prefect" and music "source", was alive, french speaking and quite influential in 1734,Leipzig.
www.pfarrverein does not allow anymore access to relative page from which above quote on Ostertag was copied at the time. As however http://www.ostertag-verband.de/g-buch.php reconfirms (further to Wikisource), Wieland is considered a trustworthy source, ie his data on JSKoch are "correct".

[Musicology]

Really, this is turgid stuff Yanni. It leads nowhere. It's a mess. I strongly recommend you consider the stuff you are posting. It lacks a foundation. It's full of innuendo leading nowhere in particular and with no substance. You need to get a foundation and take it from there. This is, to me, a feature of your posts. Disconnected wires which are never joined up. Dig deeper. You will find

1) Reality
2) Counterfeit elite interests (employing a cast of willing slaves, managers and propagandists).

Cantata 42

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Hu3XS_D6HVc&feature=related

Regards

[dafydd manton]

I've just looked at some examples of Bach's handwriting, and the way he wrote his music, and compared it with that of Handel. Bach's writing seems to much more rounded, and applying less pressure. There are few if any similarities that I could see, although I freely admit that I know little of music, only a bit of graphology. Is this relevant?

[yanni]

Actually, it is a collection of quotes on JSBach by well respected authors, all mentioned.

You have still to produce an answer in support of "Vienna-first globalist power" and to provide the dates of the last performances of your Judas Maccabeus, 1747, your "killer" helicopter find that collapsed so easily on your grove-ling pile of rubbish!

Here is something on Telemann to keep you company:

Wikiquote:

Legacy
Telemann was the most prolific composer of his time: his oeuvre comprises more than 3000 pieces. The first accurate estimate of the number of his works were provided by musicologists only during the 1980s and the 1990s, when extensive thematic catalogues were published. During his lifetime and the latter half of the 18th century Telemann was very highly regarded by colleagues and critics alike. Numerous theorists (Marpurg, Mattheson, Quantz, and Scheibe, among others) cited his works as models, and major composers such as J.S. Bach and Handel bought and studied his published works. He was immensely popular not only in Germany but in the rest of Europe as well: orders for editions of Telemann's music came from France, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, and Spain. It was only in early 19th century that his popularity came to a sudden halt. Most lexicographers started dismissing him as a "polygraph" who composed too many works, a Vielschreiber for whom quantity came before quality. Such views were influenced by an account of Telemann's music by Christoph Daniel Ebeling, a late 18th century critic who in fact praised Telemann's music and only made passing critical remarks of his productivity. After the Bach revival, Telemann's works were judged as inferior to Bach's and lacking in religious fervour. Particularly striking examples of such unfair judgements were produced by noted Bach biographers Philipp Spitta and Albert Schweitzer, who criticized Telemann's cantatas and then praised works they thought were composed by Bach—but which were, in fact, composed by Telemann, as was shown by later research. The last performance of a substantial work by Telemann (Der Tod Jesu) occurred in 1832, and it was not until the 20th century that his music started being performed again. The revival of interest in Telemann began in the first decades of the 20th century and culminated in the Bärenreiter critical edition of the 1950s. Today each of Telemann's works is usually given a TWV number. TWV stands for Telemann-Werke-Verzeichnis (Telemann Work Catalogue).

Telemann's music was one of the driving forces behind the late Baroque and the early Classical styles. Starting in the 1710s he became one of the creators and the foremost exponents of the so-called German mixed style, an amalgam of German, French, Italian and Polish styles. Over the years, his music gradually changed and started incorporating more and more elements of the galant style, but he never completely adopted the ideals of the nascent Classical era: Telemann's style remained contrapuntally and harmonically complex, and already in 1751 he dismissed much contemporary music as too simplistic. Composers he influenced musically included pupils of J.S. Bach in Leipzig, such as Wilhelm Friedmann Bach, Carl Philipp Emmanuel Bach and Johann Friedrich Agricola, as well as those composers who performed under his direction in Leipzig (Christoph Graupner, Johann David Heinichen and Johann Georg Pisendel), composers of the Berlin lieder school, and finally, his numerous pupils, none of whom, however, became major composers.

Equally important for the history of music were Telemann's publishing activities. By pursuing exclusive publication rights for his own works, he set one of the most important early precedents for regarding music as the intellectual property of the composer. The same attitude informed his public concerts, where Telemann would frequently perform music originally composed for ceremonies attended only by a select few members of the upper class.

Hi, Dafydd and wellcome to this forum.

Graphology is not really anymore a science than forgery is and they were expert forgers in the 18th century, some, like Cagliostro, closely linked to my main hero, ie Comte de Saint Germain.

Here is a little something you might care to examine and interpret if Handel/Bach falls in your basket of interests:

TO SIR HORACE MANN. STRAWBERRY HILL, Oct. 24, 1758.: Apropos to them, I will send you an epigram that I made the other day on Mr. Chute's asking why Taylor the oculist called himself Chevalier?[1]
[Footnote 1: Walpole was proud of the epigram, for the week before he had sent it to Lady Hervey. It was—
Why Taylor the quack calls himself Chevalier
'Tis not easy a reason to render,
Unless blinding eyes that he thinks to make clear
Demonstrates he's but a Pretender.

Handel died allegedly less than a year later but because of his rather strange behaviour eversince 1750-went often missing-there were many who did not believe he really died then.

And "Pretender", with a capital P, is highly revealing of Walpole's views on -undercover nomore- agent "Handel"!

Regards.







I've just looked at some examples of Bach's handwriting, and the way he wrote his music, and compared it with that of Handel. Bach's writing seems to much more rounded, and applying less pressure. There are few if any similarities that I could see, although I freely admit that I know little of music, only a bit of graphology. Is this relevant?

[dafydd manton]

Graphology is, indeed, not an art, but I still can't quite see why so many of the documents, known to be in reputable collections, and which are so radically different even to the untrained eye, should be confused. Perhaps somebody could explain, but obviously bearing in mind the chief axiom for anybody in the field of Intelligence Collection - Never, ever expand upon a hypothesis. Thank you.

[yanni]

Your axiom is contradicted by intelligence people mostly working on multiple hypotheses and what if scenaria.

But Walpole's verse is nothing like such, it reads instead like "time to do something about it".

[dafydd manton]

Your axiom is contradicted by intelligence people mostly working on multiple hypotheses and what if scenaria.

But Walpole's verse is nothing like such, it reads instead like "time to do something about it".

What the heck has Walpole got to do with Intelligence Collection? It was a field in which I worked for 15 long years, so can refute your rather strange contentions without fear of contradiction. Well, sensible contradiction, anyway. Thank you, I have learned all I need to know at this point. It has been......interesting.

[yanni]

Walpole, like most diplomats of his time, had a lot to do with all of todays departments or fields of intelligence, planning, collecting, interpreting and evaluating etc and was quite a skilled diplomat as well.

You are confused because you are applying current company structure (reducing the individual and prohibiting initiative, hence your axiom and bitterness) to judge another era.

Your considered thoughts on the subject, as per title, are still wellcome.

Regards.

[dafydd manton]

Nobody is talking about diplomats, politicians or anybody else, We are talking about GATHERING intelligence, the principles of which have not changed in over 2000 years. merely the methodology has altered. Bitterness? Wrong. Confusion? Wrong. Current Company Structure? More than wrong. Other than that, well.......it still doesn't explain the disparity between the two different hands. does it?

[yanni]

Believe it or not, Dafydd, this subject is titled "the puzzle of the socalled Brandenburg concertos" and has to do with Handel/Bach and the people he associated with.

Like all puzzles, unless one expands upon mutliple hypotheses on all elements as they prop up thru research, it cannot be solved.

Furthemore the word itself, hypothesis, defines that any "thesis" (and as it turns out most axioms are but such) includes various underlying angles that must be always examined.

Have a good day.

[dafydd manton]

Funny, that. It says "Bach variations" on my computer. Reliability of evidence, that kind of thing. Oh dear.

[yanni]

Your initiative to expand upon a hypothesis was proven right, Daf, but your skills of intelligence collection so far have not provided any evidence to counter mine in "either" subject.

The subject is "Handel and Bach were one and the same" by now and will consist of at least three entities (many more can be produced if needed, all leading to the same conclusion).

The Bach variations , the Brandenurg Concertos and Handel/Bach's eye problem and Taylor surgery.

A fourth entity, titled "Musicology's helicopter accident", better be avoided, don't you think?

Thanks.

[dafydd manton]

I shouldn't like to get involved. No gentleman would get embroiled in personal mud-slinging, though, it's so common, don't you feel? Almost as bad as abbreviating a chap's name, what? Dash it all, you would refer to Mozart as Wolfie, would you. Ludders? Perishin' impertinence!

[Musicology]

With Mozart anything is possible. As we all know. And with that most controversial observation, voila !

[yanni]

Pity your englishcountrygentlemanly idiom was tainted. "Mud slinging"? Couldn't find it in my Concise Oxford, IV Ed, 1959, imagine that!

Are you suggesting perhaps that the well deserved "return to sender" of Sir Robert's latest attempt to "mud slinging with irony" was not documented enough to call his bluff (or blunder) or are you just dressing up this new attempt of -awfully common-slander differently?

Perish in your impertinance as you please, Sir Dafydd.

[dafydd manton]

English? Sir, you do me a disservice. I like the Sir bit though!

[yanni]

"Welshcountrygentlemanly" doesn't have the right ring, Dafydd.

Hugh Grand holds the title for "old english style" champion anyhow!

[dafydd manton]

No, you're right, it doesn't, but the word is long enough to be one of ours!!!!! Cheers!!

[yanni]

Coming back to third entity, Handel/Bach's eye problem and Taylor surgery, here is a short quote on Dr William Bromfield's son (William Bromfield allegedly operated on Handel/Bach's eye in 1752) studies in Florence:

His eldest son, William Heriot Bromfield, was born in Fetherstone Buildings, Holborn, and was baptised at St. Andrew's, Holborn, on December 19, 1736. He was entered at Eton in 1753, leaving two years later;' but his name appears as being apprenticed to his father in 1753, at Surgeons' Hall. He graduated M.D. at Padua, became a member of the Academies of Botany at Cortona and Florence, and of the Royal Academy of Sciences at Paris, and it was he who published a French translation of his father's work on " The English Nightshades" in 1761; and to him was dedicated, by the editor, a Latin edition of his father's " Observations on Lithotomy " (extracted from his lectures on Surgery), published at Florence in the same year. This dedication extols his rare learning in every branch of literature and science, and refers to his studies under the illustrious Florentine Professor, Antonio Cocchi*, the friend of Isaac Newton and Richard Mead.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2003651/pdf/procrsmed00927-0107.pdf

We have seen so far that Bach/Handel was in Germany in 1750 to have his first eye operation by Dr Taylor which was succesfull.

He then returns to London, as Handel, and a few months later his left eye troubles him again and consults Samuel Sharp sometime after June 1751 who diagnosed ‘gutta serena’ (drop serene) which corresponds to the modern term of amaurosis, and which was then diagnosed in cases of ‘an abolition of the sight without any apparent cause or fault in the eyes’.

(No source is found today supporting an eventual first “couching” by Dr Sharp.)

Soon after.....

[I]November 1752, Handel is ceized with a paralytic disorder in his Head which has deprived him from sight’ [Deutsch, 1955]. On November 4, Händel had been couched again, this time by the Princesses’ of Wales doctor William Bromfield. ‘Yesterday, George-Frederick Handel, Esq; was couch’d by William Bromfield, Esq; Surgeon to her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales, when it was thought there was all imaginable Hopes of Success by the Operation, which must give the greatest Pleasure to all Lovers of Musick’ (General Advertiser, November 4, 1752) [Deutsch, 1955]. A short time later we find a notice in the Cambridge Chronicle (January 13, 1753): ‘Mr. Handel has so much recovered his sight that he is able to go abroad’, meaning that Händel was able to go out of doors [Deutsch, 1955]. Only 2 weeks later the public was confronted with the following news: ‘Mr. Handel has at length, unhappily, quite lost his sight. Upon his being couch’d some time since, he saw so well, that his friends flattered themselves his sight was restored for a continuance; but a few days have entirely put an end to their hope’ [Deutsch, 1955]. There was even a third eye operation by the ‘Chevalier’ John Taylor in Tunbridge Wells in 1758 (see London Chronicle, August 24, 1758) [Deutsch, 1955]. Taylor was the same man, who twice couched Johann Sebastian Bach without lasting success in 1750, and may actually have induced an iatrogenic wound infection leading to Bach’s death in July 1750.


Here is what Taylor himself wrote on the matter, partially covering the truth ( (his "Pretender" preferences already blown 1758, shortly before Handel's death):

But to proceed, I have seen a vast variety of singular animals, such as dromedaries, camels,&c and particularly at Leipsick, where a celebrated master of music, who had already arrived to his 88th year, received his sight by my hands; it is with this very man that the famous Handel was first educated, and with whom I once thought to have had the same success, having all circumstances in his favour, motions of the pupil, light, &L but upon drawing the curtain, we found the bottom defective, from a paralytic disorder.l

IE

Many years later, Taylor accepts to follow in step to the tune of "Handel and another music master he operated upon in Leipsig" (he avoids mentioning "Bach") and his descendants accept his discrediting by a later commentator who writes:

THIS much-quoted paragraph from the autobiography of the peripatetic English oculist John Taylor is the basis for the tradition that he operated on both J. S. Bach, who was certainly the celebrated master of music at Leipzig, and his even more famous contemporary Handel. But, besides its off-hand linking of human geniuses with camels,the passage is so full of inaccuracies that many authorities, including Coats, who wrote an excellent biography of Taylor, have discounted his claim. Thus Bach died at the age of 65, he did not regain his sight after operation, and, far from educating Handel, he never met him.

But scholars have collected some external evidence that Taylor did operate on Bach and perhaps on Handel, though unhappily without success:the inaccuracies may merely reflect his general unreliability about details.

Lies upon lies, yet Taylor confirms he first operated on Handel alone, believing his first operation had been successful: ...and with whom I once thought to have had the same success, having all circumstances in his favour, motions of the pupil, light, &L only to discover later, in consultation with other doctors, the root cause of the problem which was not cataract but deeper in the eye nerve ...but upon drawing the curtain, we found the bottom defective, from a paralytic disorder.

* By Antonio Cocchi: De lente crystalina oculi humani vera suffisionis sede epistola ad celeberrimum virum Jo. Baptistam Morgagnum Patavini lycei decus - Roma - Jo. Mariam Salvioni

(to be continued)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Your learned discourse reminds me of the newspaper journalist who once reported on a great political speech given over several hours by a leading politician. His report was spread over 2 pages of the 'Times' Newspaper.

(But the journalist forgot to tell readers what that speech was actually about !)

In the case of 'Handel was Bach' the simple solution is best. The occultist world of Cocchi and his fraternal associates of the 18th century included patrons who wished to write musical 'history'. (Their ancestors still do !). Such as Cocchi and others. So G.F. Handel rapidly became a 'great' composer. And so did others. Including, later, Mozart.

On the subject of Handel/Bach's eye problems, your reference to William Heriot Bromfield (occulist), who supposedly operated on Handel's eyes in 1752- he too was part of the occultist network that included Cocchi and many others. His classic education at Padua, for a start is very typical of the Aristotelian education of British Empire managers and managing elites of the East India Company - at that time subsidising northern Germany and even Vienna. His links with Florence are typical also (a centre of British Empire imperalism and Freemasonry). And Bach's sons were lured in to this stuff also.

Bach's blinding was real and probably deliberate. (A man does not die from complications involved with eye operations alone). Both occulists named in connection with the 'Bach/Handel' affair were definitely associated with occult fraternities in England and Italy/Venice. Both were employed by the British royal family. Both were linked to elites of the Holy Roman Empire and the British Empire. Neither gave a damn about J.S. Bach and his music. Such are the facts of history. A century later the British themselves finally 'discover' Bach. But, as for Handel, that's a different story. Feted in Rome and recruited from an early age by the East India Company enclave at Hamburg. Destined soon after for close association and patronage by those usual elites of Rome. I think it was called the musical 'counter-reformation'.

Concerto in C
BWV 1055/1
Jean-Pierre Rampal - Soloist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO9uWg3Wujo

[yanni]

If only you would accompany your by now famous conclusions with facts and credible sources Robert.

Bach? Alas his biographers cannot be considered "credible" anymore:

Two biographies have been written by persons who knew Bach, or who interviewed people who had known him personally. 1,2 Bach’s biographies are Nekrolog auf Johann Sebastian Bach (1754), by Bach’s eldest son, Carl Philipp Emanuel, in collaboration with a former pupil of Bach’s, Friedrich Agricola1; and Ueber Johann Sebastian Bachs Leben, Kunst und Kunstwerke (1802), by Johann Nikolaus Forkel.2 The writers of the Nekrolog did not themselves witness much of the last years of Bach’s life. They no longer lived in Bach’s home; both had worked since 1747 as musicians in Potsdam. Forkel relied heavily on the Nekrolog in writing his biography but also interviewed many persons who had known Bach, including Bach’s sons Carl Philipp Emanuel and Wilhelm Friedemann*. All later biographies of Bach are based on these work

*....and of course Johann Christian, aka the London Bach! All "recollet" romancatholics btw eversince Frederick took over Silesia if not before.

Glad you have recovered from your helicopter accident, please advise on Judas Maccabeus last 1747 perfomances, will you?
Handel was in Germany later on in 1747, visiting Frederick, and so was Johann Sebastian Bach, "composer for the royal court of Poland and the Electoral court of Saxony, Kapellmeister and Director of Choral Music in Leipzig" (1741) only to be buried anonymously in 1750 in a backyard somewhere.

Everything is amiss in this scenario of yours!

[Musicology]

And your speculation that 'Handel was Bach' still lacks any evidence of the role of GF Handel in Leipzig during the many years J.S. Bach was Kapellmeister there ! You simply have no answer. Do you ? At this point I resign from this silly game. Sorry, but I've better things to do.

Regards




If only you would accompany your by now famous conclusions with facts and credible sources Robert.

Bach? Alas his biographers cannot be considered "credible" anymore:

Two biographies have been written by persons who knew Bach, or who interviewed people who had known him personally. 1,2 Bach’s biographies are Nekrolog auf Johann Sebastian Bach (1754), by Bach’s eldest son, Carl Philipp Emanuel, in collaboration with a former pupil of Bach’s, Friedrich Agricola1; and Ueber Johann Sebastian Bachs Leben, Kunst und Kunstwerke (1802), by Johann Nikolaus Forkel.2 The writers of the Nekrolog did not themselves witness much of the last years of Bach’s life. They no longer lived in Bach’s home; both had worked since 1747 as musicians in Potsdam. Forkel relied heavily on the Nekrolog in writing his biography but also interviewed many persons who had known Bach, including Bach’s sons Carl Philipp Emanuel and Wilhelm Friedemann*. All later biographies of Bach are based on these work

*....and of course Johann Christian, aka the London Bach! All counter reformists btw eversince Frederick took over Silesia.

Glad you have recovered from your helicopter accident, please advise on Judas Maccabeus last 1747 perfomances, will you?
Handel was in Germany later on in 1747, visiting Frederick, and so was Johann Sebastian Bach, "composer for the royal court of Poland and the Electoral court of Saxony, Kapellmeister and Director of Choral Music in Leipzig" (1741) only to be buried anonymously in 1750 in a backyard somewhere.

Everything is amiss in this scenario of yours!

[yanni]

Is that another killer argument or what?

Show me first what evidence leads you to conclude that JSBach stayed continuously in Leipzig during the "many years".

There is none for the simple reason he was often "abroad" in London as Handel or, as he himself admits (my previous post), running after the Elector of Saxony to secure his Kappelmeister appointment there (in Sachsen-Gotha). That's when- not just his sons but -he himself as well turned roman catholic like Augustus III did, upon becoming King of Poland (1733 if I rightly remember). He wouldn't have gotten the post otherwise.

Resignation accepted (for the nth time).

Regards



And your speculation that 'Handel was Bach' still lacks any evidence of the role of GF Handel in Leipzig during the many years J.S. Bach was Kapellmeister there ! You simply have no answer. Do you ? At this point I resign from this silly game. Sorry, but I've better things to do.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Let us all resign ourselves to the fact that reality is greater than fiction. If Bach was G.F. Handel we must also explain the following -

"1707 - Herr Johann Sebastian Bach, duly appointed organist at the Church of St. Blasius in the Imperial Free City of Muhlhausen, still single at the time, youngest surviving son and lawful issue of the late Mr. Johann Ambrosius Bach, Musician to the Prince of Saxe-Eisenach, and Mistress Maria Barbara, youngest daughter and lawful issue of the late Master Johann Michael Bach, organist in Gehren. Were united in marriage in Dornheim on October 17. The fees were remitted."



//

And what about this -

The widow Anna Magdalena Bach's resources were pitifully augmented by the payment to her of 21 thaler. 21 gr., due to her late husband Bach for salary at the time of his death in 1750, and an equal amount for the surrender of her claim to occupy the Cantor's quarters in the Thomasschule for six months thereafter. Her own children at this time were still unable to maintain her, while her step sons do not appear to have admitted an obligation to do so. Yet, her poverty was notorious: Two years later, on 19th May 1752, the civic Council of Leipzig paid her 40 thaler. "in view of her poverty", and as the sum covered purchase of "certain pieces of music", was seemingly reduced to selling her husband's manuscripts. [Terry, pp. 276-7]

/..


"Bach did not make what is called a brilliant success in the world. He had, on the one hand, a lucrative office, but he had, on the other, a great number of children to maintain and to educate from the income of it. He neither had nor sought other resources. He was too much occupied with his business and his art to think of pursuing those ways which, perhaps, for a man like him, especially in his times, would have led to a gold mine. If he had thought fit to travel, he would (as even one of his enemies said) have drawn upon himself the admiration of the whole world. But he loved instead a quiet domestic life, constant and uninterrupted occupation with his art, and he was, as we have said of his ancestors, a man of few wants." (JN Forkel)

Some things are said, others heard.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4zXAAMxGiW0&feature=related




[QUOTE=yanni;931160]Is that another killer argument or what?

Show me first what evidence leads you to conclude that JSBach stayed continuously in Leipzig during the "many years".

There is none for the simple reason he was often "abroad" in London as Handel or, as he himself admits (my previous post), running after the Elector of Saxony to secure his Kappelmeister appointment there (in Sachsen-Gotha). That's when- not just his sons but -he himself as well turned roman catholic like Augustus III did, upon becoming King of Poland (1733 if I rightly remember). He wouldn't have gotten the post otherwise.

Resignation accepted (for the nth time).

Regards

[yanni]

"We" have already covered -the credibility of- what's considered "original Bach sources" and their creators, Robert, Forkel included, but I will go as far as commenting on one of your two new "solid" sources:

Hans T.David's(1902-1967) work on Bach can be traced back to the "Bach Gesellschaft" and their founders, Moritz Hauptmann, cantor of St. Thomas' in Leipzig (as from 1842), Otto Jahn, author of a noted biography of Mozart, Carl Ferdinand Becker, teacher at the Leipzig Conservatory and the composer Robert Schumann.

Hauptmann also was a professor of music theory at the conservatoire founded by Felix Mendelssohn (who had every interest to promote "Bach", as already discussed too)!

So I decided not to bother checking also your "Terry" source next, leaving the task of unravelling your "grove-ling pile" to yourgoodself!

Alternatively- having refused already my invitation to provide concrete evidence on Bach's continuous uninterupted stay in Leipzig for his last twenty years- why don't you try persuading our readers on Handel's permanent stay in London for the same re period?

Here is the best, imo, web source for that, ("best" but for the fact 1745, 1746 events re "Gluck-Saint Germain-spying" are left mostly "uncovered")":

http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1730.htm (By Elias Chrysochoidis!)

:lurk5:

PS "Reality greater than fiction" is a loose statement, propably wrong too if you measure "greatness" in $s as per custom.....

....and it's this same "greater reality" that hides "Handel/Bach" and every other 18th century music master, a "Koch-Mendelsohn", little grocer-big lie, "reality" that also created "Rousseau, Grimm, Gluck, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Casanova" and countless others, and myths like "Opera phantom" and "Comte de Saint Germain".

And they did not limit themselves to music, alas!



Yanni,

Let us all resign ourselves to the fact that reality is greater than fiction. If Bach was G.F. Handel we must also explain the following -

"1707 - Herr Johann Sebastian Bach, duly appointed organist at the Church of St. Blasius in the Imperial Free City of Muhlhausen, still single at the time, youngest surviving son and lawful issue of the late Mr. Johann Ambrosius Bach, Musician to the Prince of Saxe-Eisenach, and Mistress Maria Barbara, youngest daughter and lawful issue of the late Master Johann Michael Bach, organist in Gehren. Were united in marriage in Dornheim on October 17. The fees were remitted." [quoted in David, p. 56]


//

And what about this -

The widow Anna Magdalena Bach's resources were pitifully augmented by the payment to her of 21 thaler. 21 gr., due to her late husband Bach for salary at the time of his death in 1750, and an equal amount for the surrender of her claim to occupy the Cantor's quarters in the Thomasschule for six months thereafter. Her own children at this time were still unable to maintain her, while her step sons do not appear to have admitted an obligation to do so. Yet, her poverty was notorious: Two years later, on 19th May 1752, the civic Council of Leipzig paid her 40 thaler. "in view of her poverty", and as the sum covered purchase of "certain pieces of music", was seemingly reduced to selling her husband's manuscripts. [Terry, pp. 276-7]

/..


"Bach did not make what is called a brilliant success in the world. He had, on the one hand, a lucrative office, but he had, on the other, a great number of children to maintain and to educate from the income of it. He neither had nor sought other resources. He was too much occupied with his business and his art to think of pursuing those ways which, perhaps, for a man like him, especially in his times, would have led to a gold mine. If he had thought fit to travel, he would (as even one of his enemies said) have drawn upon himself the admiration of the whole world. But he loved instead a quiet domestic life, constant and uninterrupted occupation with his art, and he was, as we have said of his ancestors, a man of few wants." (JN Forkel)

Some things are said, others heard.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=4zXAAMxGiW0&feature=related

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=WsT3pBrN6HE&feature=related

[yanni]

In the other thread, you were saying something of "a man dying in Prague" related to Bach's eye operation. Care to elaborate?

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Of the life of ‘John Taylor' (supposed eye-surgeon) after 1761 (when his official 'autobiography' first appeared), little is known with certainty. There are numerous published proofs in German newspapers that he was kicked out of various cities there as a fraud, a charlatan, and died either in Paris or in a monastery near Prague in 1772. According to various accounts he was blind himself at the time.

(For the Prague monastery story of 'Taylor's' death see SNYDER, 'C., Archs. Ophthalmic'., 1963, Vol. 69, p. 831'. Also refered to in. WOODS, S., 'British. Journal of Ophthal'., 1930, Vol. 14, p. 193).

'Taylor' was from the very first closely associated with leading ecclesiastical authorities in Rome. Fraternity members themselves. As he was in England, Poland, France and elsewhere. That is where his name of ‘Chevalier’ Taylor first came from. Rome. He was also in close association with the King of Poland. And Paris (France) was (unknown to many people) under the rule of the British monarchy during all of the 18th century as it had been for centuries before. British kings finally stopped ruling France in 1801. For example, see the text of the Treaty of Versailles (1783) made after the end of the American War of Independence which shows clearly in its text (the very first paragraph) that the King of Britain (George 3rd) is (amongst other things), ‘Elector of the Holy Roman Empire’ , 'King of France', and also ‘Arch Treasurer’ of the Holy Roman Empire !!

As for the role of France in the British Empire and its close association with the Holy Roman Empire (usually through the bankers of Hamburg and Paris) this is an area that shows right from the start the idea of a ‘Protestant’ king of Britain (or one from Hanover) was really a fiction invented for the public. All British kings and queens were well known to be bound by an agreement made with the papacy back in Norman times which committed them to be loyal supporters of the papacy. Henry 8th did not change this. That too was staged managed. It merely surrendered England to Venetian occultism. But that too is ignored in history books.

J.S. Bach was almost certainly a victim of the cultural counter-reformation, at the hands of evil men, just as surely as G.F. Handel rapidly became one of its created musical icons. That is gone now. But what remains is greater.

The fact Bach's sons became closely associated with England and with the British Empire (often through Hamburg, Rome and London) is clear evidence of the role of the British in German affairs and the role of occult fraternities long before the end of the Holy Roman Empire. It was from the hostility to JS Bach (coming from virtually everywhere and especially from Leipzig University and elsewhere) that they, his sons, turned to the British. A big mistake.

The British Empire was a Venetian/Roman construction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UkA99c9C-A




In the other thread, you were saying something of "a man dying in Prague" related to Bach's eye operation. Care to elaborate?

June 1749 - Leipzig - Church authorities in the city had already interviewed one * Gottlob Harrer for the 'future filling of the post of the Kapellmeister upon the eventual decease of Herr Bach' !!!!!

How extraordinary is that ????

27th March 1750 - 'Taylor' arrives in Leipzig

28th March 1750 - 'Taylor' gives public lecture in Leipzig on eye surgery

April 1750 - J.S. Bach is repeatedly operated on by 'Taylor'

8th April 1750 - 'Taylor' leaves Leipzig

14th April - 'Taylor' arrives in Berlin

Late April 1750 - Taylor is deported from Germany for being a medical charlatan.

7th July 1750 - J.S. Bach dies.

* (The same Harrer was in fact installed as Kapellmeister at Michaelmas in 1750, shortly after Bach's death).

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=qmSGPgxTfxQ&feature=related

///

[yanni]

Like our previous heroes, Taylor's biography as well raises more questions than answers supplied.

He was King George's II personal eye physician yet he was attacked , as a Pretender, by Horace Walpole in 1758 (when he operated with others on Handel, as he claims).

Sometime later he operated on Edward Gibbon, was closely related to the equally mysterious father* of "our" van Swieten (personal physician** of Maria Theresa of Austria), died blind in Praque, our "Myslivecek, Rossler, Casanova etc" Praque.

Everyone associated with "Bach's" biography was furthermore a "mystery", their own identities and biographies quite unsourced and "limited" in detail: Marpurg, the one who wrote the forword on Bach's "Art of Fugue" (1751,2) and Telemann, who certainly knew both Bach and Handel well and with whom Handel allegedly corresponded December 1750 on his return from Europe after his alleged accident.

Add them to "Bach's" alleged sons, Wieland, Forkel, Koch etc etc, ie Bach's only "original sources" .

The whole 18th cent "history" concerning all our heroes was "manufactured", Bach and Handel included.

Samuel von Cocceji was in control of "Prussia" long before becoming chief chancellor in 1747.

Have patience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS

Re King George 3rd, ‘Elector of the Holy Roman Empire’ , 'King of France' and ‘Arch Treasurer’ of the Holy Roman Empire: You still have to provide a palatable explanation of Prince of Wales's noticeable bow on first receiving Haydn in London, January 1791 (promoted by Salomon), his father offering lodgings to Haydn in Windsor Palace later on in 1794. http://www.haydnfestival.at/haydn_en/netautor/napro4/appl/na_professional/parse.php3?mlay_id=10130&xmlval_ID_KEY%5B%5D=2608&xmlval_ID_DOC%5B%5D=1033766&mdoc_id=1034865


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_van_Swieten

** Just like "Rousseau-Hennin-Helvetius's" father who was the doctor of Maria Lecszynska, queen of France. See post 6 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43550

"Helvetius" small timeline abstract:

Francis I dies August 18, 1765: Holy Roman Emperor and Grand Duke of Tuscany, also known as Francis III Stephen, Duke of Lorraine, the second son of Leopold Joseph, duke of Lorraine, and his wife Elizabeth Charlotte, daughter of Philippe I, duc d’Orléans and Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine. (Parents of Marie Antoinette)

Rousseau:His house in Motiers was stoned on the night of September 6, 1765 – he took refuge with the philosopher David Hume in Great Britain.

Helvetius visits England Sept 1765. p241, Correspondance générale d'Helvétius by Claude-Adrien Helvétius,Anne-Catherine Helvétius,Alan Dainard,Jean Orsoni,David Smith

LETTRE DE P. M. HENNIN A VOLTAIRE. A Paris» le 9 octobre 1765.

....new envoy at Geneva, M. Hennin, who arrived on December 16, 1765, whose mediation did not prosper...THE LIFE OF VOLTAIRE

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Certainly we with patience possess our souls. And with recognition of the divine we rejoice.

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wraO_FOpFJ4&feature=related

[yanni]

Between possessions and rejoicing, do remember if you can the rules of carrying out a conversation, let alone providing answers concerning your alleged musicology interest.

Amen.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

In a world stuffed with endless inventions, exaggerations and manufactured reputations we are glad musical appreciation and documenting its history are not the same as the subject of sausage production.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlKcMJwcgq4&feature=related

[yanni]

When you visit the Wartburg Castle, located on a high and narrow Rock Cliff, 220 meter above Eisenach and part of the UNESCO World Heritage, you will be reminded of Martin Luther, who translated the New Testament from Greek into German in only eleven weeks, during his not quite voluntary stay from 1521 – 1522. He was taken into a protective custody for about 2 years. Like no other castle in Germany, Wartburg is connected with the history of Germany. Not only Luther and Bach contributed to this, but also the later canonized Elisabeth from Thuringia, who lived here from 1211 – 1227 and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, who visited Wartburg a couple of times. In the 19th Century huge restorations began and new buildings were added and the Castle became the shape you can still see today. Many activities and exhibitions are featured throughout the year on the Wartburg and it’s always worth a visit.

Another highlight of a very different kind is the visit to the Lutherstuben Erlebnisrestaurant.You will enter a Restaurant that sends you back to the days when Martin Luther was still around. Authentic ambience, costumes and even the speech from the Middle Ages are cultivated here and will make your stay a great experience. The food and drinks and the service are also authentic and of high quality. Where else would you get a meter of very delicious Thuringian Sausage and drink your wine from a clay jug, while watching the chefs cooking more culinary delights? No better place to end your day in Eisenach and Wartburg Castle

Is it wrong to assume that Bache was raised on "wurst" too?

Speaking of Bache, this belongs in this thread really:

As JSBACH's fan and musiclogist, do you know if, after his alleged July 1750 death, his sons took part in the theatrical-musical festivities that followed immediately after in Prussia, lasting practicaly to the end of the year?

Agricola, his alleged pupil and "creator", another "mystery" just like Marpurg(aka...), certainly did (take part) along with most of our other heroes such as Algarotti, Voltaire, Collini, CLCocceji, La Barberina, Gluck's "Lobkowitz" etc etc.

There were even onstage fireworks performed, much like they used to do in Handel's London*.

Not to forget Marpurg's patron(!), count Rothenburg(aka....!), Frederick's liebling advisor in foreign affairs ("the two" having just succeeded in bringing Prussia closer to France).


*Wiki: 'The Music for the Royal Fireworks (HWV 351) is an orchestral suite composed by George Frideric Handel in 1749 under contract of George II of Great Britain for the fireworks in London's Green Park on 27 April 1749. It was to celebrate the end of the War of the Austrian Succession and the signing of the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748.'

Jemima Grey was present:

"…the Number, the Sizes & various Forms of the Rockets were quite surprising, one Explosion particularly which they say was of Six Thousand was beyond all Imagination, & excepting to poor Mrs. Talbot who was frightened out of all her Wits (for it was not indeed a very Quiet Amusement) they were no less Beautiful."

Add "Keyserlingk" to the guest list btw and "Condillac" too.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

When posts lead in a definite direction they are more valuable. But others read like the formal announcement of the arrival of an emperor - described as Emperor 'F', King of 'X', 'Prince of 'Y', Grand Duke of 'B', son of 'D', Lord of 'A', and great uncle of Count 'J'. In some kinds of society such protocol says everything but in others it's a frightful bore because it leads nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqp2_LaYoSU

[yanni]

This thread definitely proceeds towards proving the common identity of JSBach and Handel, Robert. Like it or not, they were serving the Kings or Emperors of their time (in more fields than just music).

If researching for this truth bores some societies, as you say, it's because such societies serve the big lie and have no interest on "truth" or clue on Handel/Bach's* main message on education of Kings: "RICERCAR".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Musical_Offering

Wish you luck manufacturing the "Mozart wurst" or whatever, hanging it on Rome to cure**



*Humphrey F. Sassoon has compared the theme issued by Frederick II to the theme of an A minor fugue by G.F. Handel published in Six fugues or voluntarys for organ or harpsichord. Sassoon notes that "Handels theme is much shorter than the Kings, but its musical architecture is uncannily similar: jumps followed by a descending chromatic scale." He also elaborates on their additional similarities, leading Sassoon to suggest that Bach used Handels Fuga V as a structural model or guide for the Musical Offerings Ricercar a 6, and that Fuga Vs musical concepts may also have influenced Bachs development of the Ricercar a 3.Humphrey F. Sassoon (2003). JS Bachs Musical Offering and the Source of Its Theme: Royal Peculiar. The Musical Times, Vol. 144, No. 1885, pp. 38-39

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sassoon



:lurk5:

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The theme issued by Frederic 2nd to Bach was barren, awkward, and seemed to offer no potential for great development. In fact it had been calculated in advance to defeat and criticise Bach and his music. Publicly. Since Bach's reputation amongst musicians was that of a man who could improvise on virtually any theme. Bach's immediate reply when these notes were presented to him was to say that it could be done only on a certain level immediately because of its content deserved to be worked on by him later. (This challenge had been pre-arranged by his various musical critics). But it did not succeed. As for Handel, Frederic 2nd's court was already a base of British imperialism at the time of Bach's arrival there. This is a plain fact. (There in Prussia was British Ambassador Extraordinaire and Plenipotentiary Sir Andrew Mitchell. You do know what a 'Plenipotentiary' is, don't you - 'one who acts with full power'). Britain (through it's Empire) was virtually funding Prussia at this time. Complete with the hugely famous music of 'Handel'. It was really a trap and Bach was well aware of it. Designed to rubbish Bach and all he musically represented. To which Bach eventually replied. In one of the most remarkable musical works ever conceived of.

http://www.harpercollins.com/author/authorExtra.aspx?isbn13=9780007156610&displayType=readingGuide

Bach's musical answer to that 'impossible' commission is musically in another universe than the 'Handel' work to which you refer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2gTOrKl43I



This thread definitely proceeds towards proving the common identity of JSBach and Handel, Robert. Like it or not, they were serving the Kings or Emperors of their time (in more fields than just music).

If researching for this truth bores some societies, as you say, it's because such societies serve the big lie and have no interest on "truth" or clue on Handel/Bach's* main message on education of Kings: "RICERCAR".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Musical_Offering

Wish you luck manufacturing the "Mozart wurst" or whatever, hanging it on Rome to cure**



*Humphrey F. Sassoon has compared the theme issued by Frederick II to the theme of an A minor fugue by G.F. Handel published in Six fugues or voluntarys for organ or harpsichord. Sassoon notes that "Handels theme is much shorter than the Kings, but its musical architecture is uncannily similar: jumps followed by a descending chromatic scale." He also elaborates on their additional similarities, leading Sassoon to suggest that Bach used Handels Fuga V as a structural model or guide for the Musical Offerings Ricercar a 6, and that Fuga Vs musical concepts may also have influenced Bachs development of the Ricercar a 3.Humphrey F. Sassoon (2003). JS Bachs Musical Offering and the Source of Its Theme: Royal Peculiar. The Musical Times, Vol. 144, No. 1885, pp. 38-39

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sassoon



:lurk5:

[yanni]

Fiddlesticks!

1739: War of the Austrian Succession broke out. France was allied with Spain and Prussia, all of whom were against Maria Theresa.

Maria Theresa was supported by Great Britain, ruled by George II, and the Kingdom of Sardinia, which was then ruled by Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia

Try following relevant french poetry:

ÉPITRE SUR LA FERMETÉ ET SUR LA PATIENCE. Cette poésie, encore inédite, fut envoyée à Voltaire le 27 février 1738 et le 18 mars 1740, au colonel de Camas le 28 mars, et à Algarotti le 15 avril 1740.
Frédéric envoya cette Épître, inconnue jusqu'à présent, au colonel de Camas le 28 mars, et au comte Algarotti le 15 avril 1740. L'autographe se trouve aux archives royales du Cabinet (Caisse 149, F).
ÉPITRE SUR LA NÉCESSITÉ DE REMPLIR LE VIDE DE L'AME PAR L'ÉTUDE.
L'autographe de cette Épître, qui fut envoyée à Voltaire le 26 avril, et à Algarotti le 19 mai 1740,

[Musicology]

What is 'fiddlesticks' ? You didn't tell us. And I'm not surprised.

I think it's called 'supporting both sides'. Which is exactly what George 1st, George 2nd, and George 3rd of Britain and its mercantile elites did all the time. Because they (these Hanoverian kings) were all Arch Treasurers of - the Holy Roman Empire. Not bad for a 'Protestant' King, you may agree ?

Says so right on the Treaty of Paris (1783), signed by King George 3rd of Britain and others such as Benjamin Franklin. Read the opening paragraphs. The 'Protestant' kings of England were hypocrites. And they were also called 'The King of France' amongst other titles. I happen to have a copy of its text right next to me. Here it is -

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=431

'France' lent lots of silver to the American revolutionary army during the American War of Independence. At great rates of interest. But, in reality, the 'King of France' involved in these loans were not French. They were Kings of Britain. Who claimed rule over France right up until 1801. Such are the facts of history.


Fiddlesticks!

1739: War of the Austrian Succession broke out. France was allied with Spain and Prussia, all of whom were against Maria Theresa.

Maria Theresa was supported by Great Britain, ruled by George II, and the Kingdom of Sardinia, which was then ruled by Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia

Try following relevant french poetry:

ÉPITRE SUR LA FERMETÉ ET SUR LA PATIENCE. Cette poésie, encore inédite, fut envoyée à Voltaire le 27 février 1738 et le 18 mars 1740, au colonel de Camas le 28 mars, et à Algarotti le 15 avril 1740.
Frédéric envoya cette Épître, inconnue jusqu'à présent, au colonel de Camas le 28 mars, et au comte Algarotti le 15 avril 1740. L'autographe se trouve aux archives royales du Cabinet (Caisse 149, F).
ÉPITRE SUR LA NÉCESSITÉ DE REMPLIR LE VIDE DE L'AME PAR L'ÉTUDE.
L'autographe de cette Épître, qui fut envoyée à Voltaire le 26 avril, et à Algarotti le 19 mai 1740,

[yanni]

Indeed King George III chose to call himself "King of France" among others (he was suffering from porfyria afterall) and, as you say, did sign the 1783 Paris Treaty as King of France.

This treaty however was between England and USA only (the latter not really interested to dispute his titles at the time).

Separate agreements were signed between England and other nations:

Treaty with France
Preliminary articles[6] had been signed 20 January 1783, at Versailles
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Signed at Versailles, 3 September 1783, by George Montagu, 4th Duke of Manchester and Charles Gravier, Comte de Vergennes.

Necker, who supported the American Revolution thru a policy of taking out large international loans was dismissed and …. November 2, 1783 Louis XVI appoints Charles de Calonne controller general of finance.

[Musicology]

No, King George 3rd was not the only British monarch to be called 'King of France'. It was also a title used by King George 1st. And then by King George 2 after him. Then it was used by King George 3rd. You are simply wrong. It had been claimed by British monarchs for many centuries at that time. The House of Hanover was just the same papal globalism using the British Empire.

So your 'porfyria' argument is wrong. The British (acting as hypocrites and in the service of Rome) had been funding BOTH sides of major conflicts across Europe for centuries. King George 3rd was only another example who, in 1783, signed the Treaty of Paris with the American 'ministers' - whom George (and his shareholders) had earlier secretly loaned huge amounts of silver to during the American War of Independence. Thus, with massive interest now payable by the Americans, the USA became a corporation of the British Empire soon after its independence. The beneficiaries were and still are the same feudal elites.

I have documents showing British royal payments to numerous areas of Germany they were controlling during the 18th century. And letters saying they (these British plenipotentiary diplomats who were permanently based in Germany) had the power to have stopped any French invasion of Bonn by payment of £500,000 to them by the Elector of Bonn during the 7 Years War (1756-63). These are indisputable facts. And there are thousands of them. The British Empire was a massive, hypocritical Romanist deception. Sheer greed and elitism by papally loyal families who were feudal lords of England since Norman times. All loyal slaves to the Holy Roman Empire. In secret. Through the slave running British oligarchy of companies such as the East India Company. And using non-Catholics such as Hessian troops in their globalist game of exploitation as cannon-fodder. As they later did in Napoleon's time and again in World Wars 1 and 2. This is not an opinion but plain fact. Hypocrisy and the usual Roman slavery. The bombing of Dresden and other places were other examples. We really must stop feeding the golden thrones of the Vatican. Or else the CIA and western 'democracies' will be managed by Knights of Malta and Knights of the papally loyal central banks. Oops, too late !



Indeed King George III chose to call himself "King of France" among others (he was suffering from porfyria afterall) and, as you say, did sign the 1783 Paris Treaty as King of France.

This treaty however was between England and USA only (the latter not really interested to dispute his titles at the time).

Separate agreements were signed between England and other nations:

Treaty with France
Preliminary articles[6] had been signed 20 January 1783, at Versailles
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Signed at Versailles, 3 September 1783, by George Montagu, 4th Duke of Manchester and Charles Gravier, Comte de Vergennes.

Necker, who supported the American Revolution thru a policy of taking out large international loans was dismissed and …. November 2, 1783 Louis XVI appoints Charles de Calonne controller general of finance.

[yanni]

What each 18th century monarch claimed thru his title was not readily accepted by others monarchs. In fact Prussia and Austria both were claiming the Holy Roman Emperor title eversince 1750- if not before-and Britain was on the side of Austria, whereas poor "old Fritz" on the side of France and, because of France and Augustus III who turned Roman Catholic to be crowned, Fritz and August "swallowed" Poland and aided USA to rid themselves of George III and his manias.

Just because England sided with Vienna however doe not justify your unfounded argument "hanging it all" on Rome.

You are right on bankers playing on both sides of many wars (but you are wrong to tranfer their conduct to "The British" in general. Afterall they, "british bankers", were anything but british in origin) and I have detected and revealed such "behaviour" to members of my own "ancestors" post 1800 (Two Works by Poe decoded).

Later research has shown that such "behaviour" was practiced by them during the second half of the 18th century as well and I can but assume they had developed it much earlier, while serving the Medicis as spiritual guides (Nicolas Caussin), ministers and propably bankers(Mirabeau-Riquetti*) as well.

But this thread is on Bach and Handel being one and the same and philosophies on who and why first coined "win-win" development and promotion are off course (other than the fact music and musicians played to the tune of the highest bidder, some, like Handel/Bach, on both sides of a conflict).

Regards.

*Conclusive evidence of Mirabeau junior's "comte de Saint Germain" identity is already on the web but has to be linked to my own research to then be presented properly. Key words: "Starot de Saint Germain", Gibert (or Guibert).
Crillon, Crillonade, Louis XV of France, Napoleon, 1783.



No, King George 3rd was not the only British monarch to be called 'King of France'. It was also a title used by King George 1st. And then by King George 2 after him. Then it was used by King George 3rd. You are simply wrong. It had been claimed by British monarchs for many centuries at that time. The House of Hanover was just the same papal globalism using the British Empire.

So your 'porfyria' argument is wrong. The British (acting as hypocrites and in the service of Rome) had been funding BOTH sides of major conflicts across Europe for centuries. King George 3rd was only another example who, in 1783, signed the Treaty of Paris with the American 'ministers' - whom George (and his shareholders) had earlier secretly loaned huge amounts of silver to during the American War of Independence. Thus, with massive interest now payable by the Americans, the USA became a corporation of the British Empire soon after its independence. The beneficiaries were and still are the same feudal elites.

I have documents showing British royal payments to numerous areas of Germany they were controlling during the 18th century. And letters saying they (these British plenipotentiary diplomats who were permanently based in Germany) had the power to have stopped any French invasion of Bonn by payment of £500,000 to them by the Elector of Bonn during the 7 Years War (1756-63). These are indisputable facts. And there are thousands of them. The British Empire was a massive, hypocritical Romanist deception. Sheer greed and elitism by papally loyal families who were feudal lords of England since Norman times. All loyal slaves to the Holy Roman Empire. In secret. Through the slave running British oligarchy of companies such as the East India Company. And using non-Catholics such as Hessian troops in their globalist game of exploitation as cannon-fodder. As they later did in Napoleon's time and again in World Wars 1 and 2. This is not an opinion but plain fact. Hypocrisy and the usual Roman slavery. The bombing of Dresden and other places were other examples. We really must stop feeding the golden thrones of the Vatican. Or else the CIA and western 'democracies' will be managed by Knights of Malta and Knights of the papally loyal central banks. Oops, too late !

[Musicology]

Yanni,

This thread is on your baseless speculation that Bach and Handel were one and the same person. That his musical output was at least twice as large as either of these composers. This is contradicted by generations of documentary evidence of the Bach family, by the plain fact that their music is completely different, by documented birth, marriage and birth certificates and by common sense. Apart from that your theory (so-called) is great !!!!:toetap05:

The British rule of France was centuries old in the 18th century. This is a FACT of history. And who ruled France in the 1720's ? It was only a caretaker post filled during that particular time by a Roman Cardinal. Why not accept the facts as they really are ?

The FACT is the Treaty of Paris (capital city of France) was signed there in 1783 with George 3rd of Britain being (as those before him) 'King of France' - as was George 2nd of Britain before him, and as was also George 1st before him. Get the picture yet ? These ARE documentary/historical facts. They were also all 'Arch Treasurers of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE'. This too is documentary, plain fact. Why not check them out for yourself ? If they are not documentary plain facts give us one single document from Rome over that half century which says the opposite is true. Just one. I guarantee you will never find one because I am stating plain, repeated, documentary fact.

Thus, the Treaty of Paris (1783) was signed by the King of Britain who was also King of France, and was also Arch Treasurer of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE ! This may startle you. But if you want a dozen more documentary proofs of these documentary facts just ask me. We await a single documentary evidence from the Holy Roman Empire or from the papal records which shows this is untrue ? Or from Rome. Shall we wait long ?

We shall, Yanni, stop going round in circles, don't you think ?

See Coat of Arms of King George 1st of United Kingdom. Clearly showing he WAS an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

If he was NOT an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire show us differently.

But not only him. Also George 2nd and George 3rd ! Is this starting to become, well, obvious ???

George I's arms were: (and I quote directly from the sources) -

Quarterly, I Gules three lions passant guardant in pale Or (for England) impaling Or a lion rampant within a tressure flory-counter-flory Gules (for Scotland); II Azure three fleurs-de-lys Or (for France); III Azure a harp Or stringed Argent (for Ireland); IV tierced per pale and per chevron (for Hanover), I Gules two lions passant guardant Or (for Brunswick), II Or a semy of hearts Gules a lion rampant Azure (for Lüneburg), III Gules a horse courant Argent (for the medieval Duchy of Saxony, which was divided into the three parts of Eastphalia, Angria and Westphalia),[87] overall an escutcheon Gules charged with the crown of Charlemagne Or (for the dignity of Archtreasurer of the Holy Roman Empire).

But don't believe it. Check the thing out for yourself. Here is an image of these arms of King George 1st -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Great_Britain_(1714-1801).svg

Would you like the same thing for King George 2nd ? How about those of King George 3rd (who signed the Treaty of Versailles in 1783) ?? And what did Rome think about this ? Can you find a single evidence that George was not as he claimed to be ? Anywhere ??

///

[yanni]

I have already answerd, Robert: A claim is a claim is a claim etc

The Act of Union 1707 declared the joining of the Kingdom of England with the Kingdom of Scotland to a new Kingdom of Great Britain. The Kingdom had four Monarchs until 1801. They also styled themselves Queen/King of France. However none of them actually questioned the rights of Louis XIV and his successors Louis XV, Louis XVI, Louis XVII and Louis XVIII:

Arms of Queen Anne featuring the French fleur-de-lys.Anne of Great Britain (May 1, 1707 - August 1, 1714).
George I of Great Britain (August 1, 1714 - June 11, 1727).
George II of Great Britain (June 11, 1727 - October 25, 1760).
George III of Great Britain (October 25, 1760 - January 1, 1801).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_claims_to_the_French_throne

And there were the Stuarts, "blessed" by Rome as rightfull owners of the title to the british throne all along.

Now, instead of name calling and constant- and bordering ridiculous -attempts to put this thread off track, please concentrate on basics:

What was the full name and title of "Keyserlingk" (originally "Kaiserling-Cesarion*") who, as per myth, persuaded JSBach (and not Brandenburg born Handel) to compose the Brandenburg Concertos, when and why did he do it, when did he die, what was his relation to Frederick of Prussia (see post 5 above you never answered as usually)?

Afterall music, JSBach's in particular, IS your subject, isn't it?

*Un jeune Courlandais, nommé Kaiserling, qui faisait aussi des vers français, tant bien que mal....

[Musicology]

No, Yanni, a fact is a fact. And the fact is King George 1st, King George 2nd, and King George 3rd were Kings of France and Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire. They were known as such from day 1 when they came to power. They remained Kings of France, and of Ireland, and of Hanover throughout their entire lives. Because these facts are the true context of what was happening in Britain and in large parts of continental Europe you have to accept them, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary. The Holy Roman Empire had some opinion about these facts, didn't it ? It never, once, denied them as facts. Did it ? It is not a 'claim' as you suppose. It was an accepted fact by the Holy Roman Empire itself. Why is this fact so difficult for you to accept ?

You have told us that George 3rd was mad. You have told us this is the reason why he claimed to be the King of France and an Arch Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire. But now we see (and the evidence has already been presented) that this was also true of his predecessors. Why not accept this fact and add it to your education of those times ?

You say none of these kings challenged the claims of Louis XIV and his successors, Louis XV, Louis XVI, Louis XVII and Louis XVIII. Yes, indeed, and there is a simple reason for this fact. The reason is that these were token positions. The real King of France during that period was the King of the United Kingdom (unknown even to the British and to most Frenchmen). It is exactly why the Holy Roman Empire approved them being 'Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire'. Now, either they were arch treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire or these 'Protestant' kings were not. They definitely were.

The 'Stuarts' were NOT recognised as Kings of France by Rome. Nor were they recognised as 'Arch Treasurers of the Holy Roman Empire'. If you can show us otherwise, please do so. We are waiting to see the evidence. You don't have any because it does not exist and has never existed.

And when we consider the implications of this fact we begin to understand the power of the British Empire during the 18th century, with its Plenipotentiaries based widely across Germany during that time. In Bonn, and many other areas of Germany. The hypocrite British were effectively ruling over large parts of protestant Germany although, in fact, they were Roman Catholics (the facts hidden from general knowledge) as we see here in the Treaty of Versailles of 1783 made with the Americans. Prussia was also being financed/controlled through the British Empire.

Here are the British (closet Roman Catholic) representatives to Prussia at the time of J.S. Bach -

1703–1711: Thomas Wentworth, 3rd Baron Raby (Envoy Extraordinary until 1705, then Ambassador)
1704 and 1705: John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough visited Berlin
1708: Maj. Gen. Francis Palmes Envoy Extraordinary
1711: Charles Whitworth Special Mission
1712-1714: Brigadier William Briton
1715: Archibald Douglas, 2nd Earl of Forfar
1716: Alexander, Lord Polwarth, also to Denmark
1716–1717: Charles Whitworth
1719–1722: Charles Whitworth MINISTER PLENIPOTENTIARY
1720: The Earl Cadogan Special mission
1720: The Earl Stanhope Special mission
1722-1724: James Scott Minister
1724–1730: Charles Du Bourgay Envoy Extraordinary
1726: Richard Sutton
1730: Sir Charles Hotham Special Mission
1730-1741: Col. Guy Melchior Dickens Secretary until 1740, then Minister
1741: Thomas Robinson Special Mission
1741–1744: John Carmichael, 3rd Earl of Hyndford Envoy Extraordinary and PLENIPOTENTIARY
1744--1747: Frederick Lorentz - Secretary, in charge
1746: Hon. Thomas Villiers Minister PLENIPOTENTIARY
1747–1749: Henry Legge
1750–1751: Charles Hanbury Williams

Thus, the hypocrite British ambassadorial elites (posing as 'Protestants' in a protestant area of Europe and in a Britain which believed the monarchy were not Roman Catholic), were effectively controlling large areas of Germany and beyond. With full papal approval ! Financing those governments and providing PLENIPOTENTIARY rule over those same places. You do know what 'plenipotentiaries' do, don't you ? They have no need to consult anyone. They rule according to their own wills. They have 'full power' to do so. Loyal to their papal masters. Hence the 7 Years War, the recruitment of Hessian and other troops to fight in the war of independence in America - all funded by the British elites. On both sides.

And if you agree about this we can discuss the state of Poland and those areas where J.S. Bach lived and worked. It provides us with an accurate picture of those times. A situation Bach faced as repeated opposition throughout his entire musical career. We may even agree on the above ? I think it's an accurate picture of reality.

Cantata 129

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgXwwQEo1dY&feature=related


Regards

[yanni]

Cheap trycks will get you nowhere, Robert, other than these nonsensical "conclusions" you are desperately trying to support...

After 1751 and until 1756-1760, Britain had no representatives in Prussia, thus confirming my reading of the period's history:

1751--1756: Apparently no representation[1]

1756–1771: Andrew Mitchell Minister 1756-1760; Minister Plenipotentiary 1760-1764; Envoy Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary 1766-1771[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomats_from_the_United_Kingdom_to_Pruss ia

Have the descency to remove yourself from this thread.

[Musicology]

Yes, and I happily rest my case on this thread with yet another fact. J.S. Bach died in 1750.

Not forgetting -

British Empire Envoys and Plenipotentiaries to Poland (equally important during Bach's lifetime) -

1709-1710: John Dalrymple, 2nd Earl of Stair
1724-1727: Edward Finch
1747-1755: Charles Hanbury Williams

And, in Prussia (as said) -

1719–1722: Charles Whitworth (Minister Plenipotentiary)

However - Concerto for 2 Violins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIOh5Iq683o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaUY8bU5XBI&feature=related

And here, from from 3' 41'', when the orchestra bursts in, you may agree that is rather special -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1vEAsJpZ_w&feature=related

Regards



Cheap trycks will get you nowhere, Robert, other than these nonsensical "conclusions" you are desperately trying to support...

After 1751 and until 1756-1760, Britain had no representatives in Prussia, thus confirming my reading of the period's history:

1751--1756: Apparently no representation[1]

1756–1771: Andrew Mitchell Minister 1756-1760; Minister Plenipotentiary 1760-1764; Envoy Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary 1766-1771[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomats_from_the_United_Kingdom_to_Pruss ia

Have the descency to remove yourself from this thread.

[yanni]

And where were the music archives of the Bonn Principality destined in 1797 ? The answer is - Prague. Records show they came to Prague in January and stayed there for some 4 ½ months. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. Four years later (and roughly coinciding with the beginning of that great flood of Andre ‘Mozart’ publications) Prague also sees the arrival in the city of one Abbe Georg Vogler, a man who ( as can be shown separately) was the senior administrator of music in the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow member of the Order of the Golden Spur with Mozart himself, and a man granted by the papacy just prior to the annullment of the Jesuit Order in 1773 the office of papal prenotary - a rank second only to that of a Cardinal. Vogler, the hidden agent of the creation of the Mozart myth. And Vogler (himself at the time grossly over-rated as an expert in organ repair and design, teacher of theory, and Kapellmeister extraordinaire) lived in Prague between 1801 and 1803, at the very time when Prague and a circle of musicians in Prague (these mostly attached to the Premonstratensians there) busied themselves with the task of manufacturing for eventual publication Mozart’s posthumous reputation as a composer. The ‘project’, of creating the vast reputations of both Joseph Haydn and Mozart was finally to be realised. In the case of Mozart, largely posthumously.

Mozart was alive at the time ofcourse.

Musicologists , theatrologists and historians will certainly be pleased to learn otherwise that "Prague" was headed by Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Koch till late 1807 at least!

In fact he received - and decorated- Napoleon after Tilsit in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807:

po podpisaniu pokoju w Tylży, w trakcie powrotu do Paryża, zatrzymał się w Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, cesarz Francuzów. Wjechał do twierdzy w samo południe. W otoczeniu generalicji i oficerów sztabowych dotarł do ustawionej przed mostem od strony Serbów, bramy triumfalnej. Z marszałkami Duroc i Murat odebrał mowy powitalne burmistrza i komendanta. Przygotowanych na srebrnej tacy pozłacanych kluczy do miasta nie przyjął. Wśród huku dział na wałach i bicia kościelnych dzwonów skierował się do zamku, gdzie przyszykowano cesarską kwaterę. Tu cesarz się posilił w otoczeniu najbliższych, potem załatwił bieżącą pocztę i wyszedł do antykamery gdzie czekali miejscowi notable. Wśród nich zwrócił monarszą uwagę przez zawieszony na fraku Order Orła Czerwonego, wiekowy prezydent regencji Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Zesłany do Głogowa młody urzędnik królewski wraz ze swoją wybranką Barberiną Campanini pozostał w mieście do końca swoich dni. I choć związek dla którego musiał opuścić Berlin nie przetrwał długo to von Cocceji spędził nad Odrą ponad 50 lat.

...and, identitywise, "abbe Vogler" has already been covered !

Cheers.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You have the most amazing ability not to see the wood for the trees. Whether Cocchi's were involved in the manufacture of Mozart's giant (even iconic) status is not disputed. It never has been. As repeatedly said. By me. And your posts only confirm it. They (Cocchis) were involved even during the childhood visit to London. And this too is plain fact. So were many others involved about whom you know far less.

So a reader of this thread will see, very clearly, during Mozart's lifetime and for years afterwards there WAS a network involved in making 'his' musical career. Which, as far as I am concerned, is now a plain, indisputable fact. Though your posts are nothing but confirmation of it in their own small way. Since you are concerned only with 'proving' to your own satisfaction (at least) that Cocchi wrote the music of Bach (amongst other things) and also that Handel was Bach, and that virtually anything was Cocchi. No, the Cocchi clan were simply part of a feudal network who worked to produce control. Control of what, exactly ? The control of music history as we know it. And they are a part of it. As we seem to agree. In fact the Cocchis were part of the same fraternal control which was emerging in the early music industry. It's no longer a matter of argument.

As for Abbe Vogler, he remained a major manager of 'Mozart's' music until the end of his life. But that is far beyond this thread.

p.s. Mozart died in 1791 and the events above (as anyone can see) are occurring years afterwards.

You would do well to tell us exactly what Cocchi did, musically, with some evidence.


And where were the music archives of the Bonn Principality destined in 1797 ? The answer is - Prague. Records show they came to Prague in January and stayed there for some 4 ½ months. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. After this point they were removed (again briefly) to Vienna. Four years later (and roughly coinciding with the beginning of that great flood of Andre ‘Mozart’ publications) Prague also sees the arrival in the city of one Abbe Georg Vogler, a man who ( as can be shown separately) was the senior administrator of music in the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow member of the Order of the Golden Spur with Mozart himself, and a man granted by the papacy just prior to the annullment of the Jesuit Order in 1773 the office of papal prenotary - a rank second only to that of a Cardinal. Vogler, the hidden agent of the creation of the Mozart myth. And Vogler (himself at the time grossly over-rated as an expert in organ repair and design, teacher of theory, and Kapellmeister extraordinaire) lived in Prague between 1801 and 1803, at the very time when Prague and a circle of musicians in Prague (these mostly attached to the Premonstratensians there) busied themselves with the task of manufacturing for eventual publication Mozart’s posthumous reputation as a composer. The ‘project’, of creating the vast reputations of both Joseph Haydn and Mozart was finally to be realised. In the case of Mozart, largely posthumously.

Mozart was alive at the time ofcourse.

Musicologists , theatrologists and historians will certainly be pleased to learn otherwise that "Prague" was headed by Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Koch till late 1807 at least!

In fact he received - and decorated- Napoleon after Tilsit in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807:

po podpisaniu pokoju w Tylży, w trakcie powrotu do Paryża, zatrzymał się w Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, cesarz Francuzów. Wjechał do twierdzy w samo południe. W otoczeniu generalicji i oficerów sztabowych dotarł do ustawionej przed mostem od strony Serbów, bramy triumfalnej. Z marszałkami Duroc i Murat odebrał mowy powitalne burmistrza i komendanta. Przygotowanych na srebrnej tacy pozłacanych kluczy do miasta nie przyjął. Wśród huku dział na wałach i bicia kościelnych dzwonów skierował się do zamku, gdzie przyszykowano cesarską kwaterę. Tu cesarz się posilił w otoczeniu najbliższych, potem załatwił bieżącą pocztę i wyszedł do antykamery gdzie czekali miejscowi notable. Wśród nich zwrócił monarszą uwagę przez zawieszony na fraku Order Orła Czerwonego, wiekowy prezydent regencji Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Zesłany do Głogowa młody urzędnik królewski wraz ze swoją wybranką Barberiną Campanini pozostał w mieście do końca swoich dni. I choć związek dla którego musiał opuścić Berlin nie przetrwał długo to von Cocceji spędził nad Odrą ponad 50 lat.

...and, identitywise, "abbe Vogler" has already been covered !

Cheers.

[yanni]

Your "reluctance" to examine music (mainly church and theater-opera) as just one of the carnivore trees of the elite's "jungle" (to gain and maintain control of the masses) is what prevents you from seeing things clearly, distorting their significance and your priorities.

Evidently "Cocchis", already active in England early 1700's, church included, were strongly influencing the British Monarchy as well (they already controlled the Bourbon world, France, Prussia, Saxony, Rome etc) eversince the Regent (later George III) bowed to Haydn, 1791, the very same Haydn who was visited by Emma, Nelson and Lord Keith(an old aquaintance of Cocceji) late 1800 in Prague, CLCocceji's "Prague".

Napoleon did not even bother to discuss Tilsit treaty himself with the Prussians and Russians*, he let others do it and selected instead to visit and councel Bohemia's president, CLCocceji, in his Glogau residence 16th July 1807while the treaty was still not ratified(Ratification on the 19th July see http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tilsit,_9_July_1807).

This highly important info is only to be found in polish on the web, let alone its non existent interpretation from history's viwpoint.

Inbetween (1791-1807) "Bonn's music archive" (Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc archive) was moved about, as you say, and I provided you with the explanation which is however, for me, of minor interest.

Early 1801 Tszar Paul, with his "Roman" upbringing and diplomatic contacts, was murdered, you see....

PS Vogler and Mozart (alive 1807) have already been covered in previous.

*A practically unknown "prussian" envoy-plenipotentiary representing Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Frederick,_Count_of_Goltz.

After Tilsit Goltz became Prussias first minister of foreign affairs. Try finding who or where was Russia's minister of foreign affairs then (Tilsit)!





Yanni,

You have the most amazing ability not to see the wood for the trees. Whether Cocchi's were involved in the manufacture of Mozart's giant (even iconic) status is not disputed. It never has been. As repeatedly said. By me. And your posts only confirm it. They (Cocchis) were involved even during the childhood visit to London. And this too is plain fact. So were many others involved about whom you know far less.

So a reader of this thread will see, very clearly, during Mozart's lifetime and for years afterwards there WAS a network involved in making 'his' musical career. Which, as far as I am concerned, is now a plain, indisputable fact. Though your posts are nothing but confirmation of it in their own small way. Since you are concerned only with 'proving' to your own satisfaction (at least) that Cocchi wrote the music of Bach (amongst other things) and also that Handel was Bach, and that virtually anything was Cocchi. No, the Cocchi clan were simply part of a feudal network who worked to produce control. Control of what, exactly ? The control of music history as we know it. And they are a part of it. As we seem to agree. In fact the Cocchis were part of the same fraternal control which was emerging in the early music industry. It's no longer a matter of argument.

As for Abbe Vogler, he remained a major manager of 'Mozart's' music until the end of his life. But that is far beyond this thread.

p.s. Mozart died in 1791 and the events above (as anyone can see) are occurring years afterwards.

You would do well to tell us exactly what Cocchi did, musically, with some evidence.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

My (alleged) 'reluctance to examine music, mainly church and theatre/opera' is an amazing answer to the request (given in my most recent post) to provide us with evidence of Cocchi's musical activities during these years. You are so reluctant to tell us let me repeat my exact request -

What Cocchi (one or several of that name) did, musically, (with some evidence) during these years. ?

The reluctance to tell us is entirely yours. Will you do so ?

As for the only music related part of your last post, you seem to have the dates wrong. You wrote -

In between (1791-1807) "Bonn's music archive" (Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc archive) was moved about, as you say, and I provided you with the explanation which is however, for me, of minor interest.

Well, no. In fact (since facts are the important things) the Bonn music archive was in Bonn until 1794 and went nowhere. It was moved at the time when Bonn Hofkapelle was closed - at the time of the Napoleonic invasion and occupation of the Rhine of that year. Then that music archive was transported to the castle of Bad Mergentheim where it stayed for some time (the residence of the Elector of Cologne, Max Franz). It remained there before going to various places including a stay in Prague, then in Vienna etc. Finally arriving (most of it) years later at Modena in Italy. Which, as you say, is a subject of minor (if any) interest to you.

Regards

[yanni]

In your quoted post on "Bonn's archive" 1797 onwards movements and whereabouts you were propably referring to Church music whereas I qualified "my" archive as Beethoven-Belderbusch-Waldstein-Koch's-Bach/Handel's-Casanova's-Haydn's etc ie a much bigger archive including theater music as well (starting with Caccini's Orpheo).

It had to be kept in relative safe storage, ie Prague eversince late 1795 (Oct 24, Russia, Austria and Prussia convention in Petersburg finalizes the 3rd division of the Polish-Lithuanian Republic).

As already written the Cocchis were "unwanted" in the Holy Roman Empire eversince 1787 ( Palazzo Cocchi, Terrarossa: con la morte senza eredi di Manfredi, il feudo tornς alla corona granducale. ), increasingly so after 1791 (Van Swieten falls out of favour) and more so after 1807, Tilsit (their tombs in Florence-basilica of Santa Crocce-confiscated by la d’Albany fece rimuovere le antiche tombe dei Cocchi e dei Nardini con l’intervento della nuova granduchessa Elisa Baciocchi. I lavori per l’installazione iniziarono nel 1809).

What did Cocchi do musically in the period?

Since you insist on ignoring or forgetting or whatever my revelations on his aliases including Bagge, Hennin, Haydn, Van Swieten, CLCocceji, Belderbusch senior, Waldstein , Koch etc (all relevant to Bonn, Prague and Vienna for the specific period) I suggest you follow my repeated advice to address it to your italian friends, Mme Trombetta in particular, for more details on his biography.

The fact that years later- parts of- the Bonn archive landed in Modena, Italy is propably to be attributed to Michel Hennin, serving under Eugene de Beauharnais, Napoleon's Italy at the time (1811-1814).

My regards.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The music I am refering to were symphonies, masses and orchestral music (but not chamber music). This had been last fully inventoried in 1784 at Bonn. After which time and until 1794 it was kept up to date by a book updated by the Kapellmeister Luchesi (today held at the Estense Library of Modena in Italy - reference C.53.01). In that year of 1794 this great mass of music was removed from Bonn so that it did not fall into the hands of the Napoleonic army. By the time it finally arrived in Modena (years later) no less than 9 symphonies were discovered to have had most of their paper covers torn off with the names of 'Mozart' written on each of their title pages and the same of various works now said to be by 'Haydn'. As the music library at Modena clearly shows.

Below the 'Prague' Symphony at Estense Library now attributed to 'W.A. Mozart'

2 Samuel 6.14

''And David danced before the LORD''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-y5leAJm6I

[yanni]

Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

...and Luchesi was Cocchi/Cocceji/Koch's pupil.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

[Musicology]

Yes indeed. Since the aristocratic patrons of Beethoven had been the same aristocratic patrons of Mozart. Visitors to Prague in those years included Abbe Vogler, Constanze Mozart, the biographer F.X. Niemetscheck etc etc. Plus Lichnowsky, Waldstein etc.


Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

[yanni]

Here is a little something to cure your homesickness, Gilliat:

The automatic translation of the polish text above via google....

After signing (subscribing) chamber (peace) in (to) Tylży, in the course of return to paris, it has stopped in (to) Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, emperor of frenchman happened . It has moved in fortress to just afternoon (south). In the midst generalicji and it has reached officers before bridge from part of serb put sztabowych, triumphal gates. With speakers Duroc and it has gotten back speech of welcome of mayors Murat and commander. It has not accepted gilded keys to cities prepare for silver tray < such >. It happened among rumble on axes and beating of (scrambling of) church bells were directed for lock (castle), where imperial headquarters przyszykowano. Emperor has been nourished in the midst of closest here, then, < sweat > it has handled (has settled) current mail and it has left (has gone out) for anticamera where they waited local < local > notable. Order of red eagle has returned monarch note among they by hinged (suspended) on tail coat, aged president of regency has returned monarch note by hinged (suspended) on tail coat order of red eagle they Carl Ludwig von Cocceji.Wśród, aged president of regency Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Has remained for along with in city days young officer royal to the end Zesłany Głogowa wybranką Barberiną Campanini. Though it must leave relationship (association) for which (who) over oder over 50 lat (summer; year) berlin not survive long spend von Cocceji.

...in urgent need of improvement!

Competent translators wellcome!

An appropriate piece by Beethoven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn9U29MiBog&feature=related

(True musicologists will have no more difficulty identifying his Leonore-the same as EAPoe's).

Even if Glogau was supposed to be delivered to Prussia following Tilsit it never really was:

According to a secret .... Treaty between France and Prussia. September 8, 1808.De Clercq, Traites, II, 270-272.

His Majesty the Emperor of the French, King of Italy, Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine and His Majesty the King of Prussia, wishing to remove the difficulties which have occurred in the execution of the treaty of Tilsit, . . .

The places of Glogau, Stettin and Custrin shall remain in the power of the French army until the entire discharge of the h(b?)ills of exchange and the land notes given in payment of the contribution mentioned in the first article. . . .

His Majesty the Emperor and King guarantees to His Majesty the King of Prussia the integrity of his territory, on condition that His Majesty the King of Prussia remains the faithful ally of France.

His Majesty the King of Prussia recognizes as King of Spain and of the Indies His Majesty Joseph-Napoleon, and as King of the Two Sicilies His Majesty Joachim-Napoleon.

[Musicology]

Hi Gilliat,

1068 musical greetings !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abXoY-k1xw&feature=related

Robert





Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

[yanni]

With Baron Bagge-Bach's ("Starot" of Courland!!) consent, the separation of Handel/Bach (publishing of "their individual" works) began 1817-18 with Beethoven* actively involved, while Mozart (as Nissen) with Constance were still having trouble "creatively" editing the prodigy's correspondence accordingly and while Merlin publications in Paris were "editing" PM Hennin's correspondence to "fit" etc etc etc.

hakuna matata!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLP5xRCLBXs

*Coincidentally born in the same house in Bonn (Bonngasse 515) with Johann Peter Salomon, Joseph Haydn's alleged agent in London (91-92).

[Musicology]

Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

[yanni]

Bach was not "buried during his life time", as you write Robert. He was enjoying himself in London as Handel (with two links on record to Dr Antonio Cocchi-Koch).

Moreover he was christened by a Koch, cooperated copying music with another "cantor" Johann Sebastian Koch, Giovannini-Saint Germain("Koch") left his mark on his wife's music buechlein and, finally, biography wise was first "established" in print, 1802*, via the testimony of Wieland(Rousseau-"Koch") , Wilhelm Friedman and Johann Christian Bach(another "Koch", possibly the same as the previous AND the next) to Forkel/H.C.Koch (Rousseau/abbe Vogler/Cocceji/Haydn/Koch**).

To say nothing (more) on Handel/Bach' s simultaneous cataract operation or the fact that "their" presences and careers were checked thru in my timeline.

No reason to stop enjoying "his" music though!

Regards.

PS The prize set in "The puzzle of Beethoven Koch's " is hereby withdrawn, as no "Koch" genealogist or musico(i)logist has exhibited the slightes interest to claim it by contradicting my findings!

:angel:


* He (his music) existed until then only thanks to "a" largely still unknown "Marpurg" (=Rousseau, see http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/marpurg.html) .

**Another fascinating element in the opera is Haydn's choice of keys. In 1768 Jean-Jacques Rousseau had developed a table with the characteristics of different keys. His thesis was that F and the flat major keys express gravity or majesty and the sharp major keys brilliance or joy. Abt Vogler and H.C. Koch argued that keys which used many open strings on the violin had a much brighter, sharper sound whereas keys using closed strings had a darker sound. Haydn's choice of E flat major for Orpheo's final aria is daring and imaginative. Rather than using a minor key, Haydn has combined this dark sound of E flat major with unforgettable orchestration, such as the bassoon which almost wails in accompaniment to Orpheo's grief.





Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

[Musicology]

Yanni,

God gave you two ears. Please use them. You will discover G.F. Handel and J.S. Bach were two different people. And these ears of yours, in the case of Bach, are both invited. In fact, it can't start without them !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyev_N6HFtg&feature=related

Regards

[yanni]

Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's* "Bach"!


*The basic similarity between Koch and Marpurg is their belief that dissonant chords are generated by the addition of intervals below the fundamental seventh chord ... .14

[Musicology]

We should always listen with our heart Yanni. In some cases our ears help.

:bigear:

When politics, the banking system, organised religion, (the entire world fails), there's always music. Speaking of which -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-p_RGVjUQ&feature=related



Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's "Bach"!

[yanni]

Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLxZkT6y8&feature=related

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

[Musicology]

Yes indeed Yanni !!

BWV 1050/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zLqaSpGwcY&feature=related



Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLxZkT6y8&feature=related

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

[yanni]

ie "Correctly following the right path brings fullfillment" quoting Christoph Martin Wieland, Prussia's first translator of Shakespeare, considered the founder of German opera today, who ended his life, fullfilled, in the serenity of his Oßmannstedter Gutshof "Osmantium" 1813....allegedly*!)

Anyway............................................ ........................................

You'll agree no doubt that instead of the Brandenburg concerto, Brockes-Marcus passion by Handel/Bach is better suited to end the subject, Robert!

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .

See also:http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Brauns-Friedrich-Nicolaus.htm

I very much doubt however that Bach himself conducted the 1748-49 Church choirs. His son Johann Christian "Bach" (aka Gluck/Hasse/Koch etc) was present and acted on his behalf (signatures on what survived from the ledger of receipts of The Nathan Bequest/Thomaskirche/Leipzig ).

Regards!

PS Should you decide to question oncemore Handel/Bach's eventual use of a helicopter in his travels to and from, don't forget to take into account the calender differences (lasting to 1750).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PBYVAB23o

*Wieland only lived there 1797-1803 acc to german sources (who do not reveal what he did next however).

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVLKkpzxs&feature=related

[yanni]

Your educated explanation please, no more, no less:

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .



Thanks Yanni,

I am glad we can agree to disagree. So, when Bach tried (twice) to see Handel (both times unsuccessfully) he was actually trying to see himself ?

That deserves a reward for originality and is as deep a lesson as we will ever get on this thread, for sure ! And what does Bach think about that ?

Best wishes

Johann Sebastian Bach
Brandenburg Concertos
Musica Florea
Artistic director Marek Štryncl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0VVLKkpzxs&feature=related

[Musicology]

Yanni, I confess I have run out of education on this subject. Does the performance of a Passion at Leipzig, which was cobbled together from arias attributed to Handel and actually by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously wrongly attributed to Reinhard Keiser] at the Thomaskirche, some time between 1747 and 1748) prove Handel and Bach were the same man ?

Maybe Vivaldi and Bach were the same man ? Or Handel and Vivaldi ? Since there is just as much evidence to support those ideas as yours.

[yanni]

Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

[Musicology]

Firstly, I don't have an idol. An idol stands between me and accepting reality. And I'm very open to knowing what reality is. It's not idolatry. It's just that your ideas of Handel/Bach lack any real evidence.

I am not 'questioning' J.S. Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence when I have never taught it in the first place !!!!

The 'Art of Fugue' for Prussia was written in these years after 1747 about (1748-50) and so were various edits of his earlier music including the chorals. So why am I questioning 'Bach's continuous Leipzig Kantor presence' ??? Who is questioning ? Everyone knows Bach travelled during those years. So what is your point ? He appears to have been unwell during this time - the last 2 years. So says Forkel and various sources. This fact has long been recognised.

The musical notes (Art of Fugue) are indisputably in Bach's own hand, written in a time before his deteriorating vision led to erratic handwriting, probably during that time 1748–1749.

The end of Bach's career was predicted for two reasons. He started to be unwell from around 1748 onwards. And secondly, because his enemies couldn't wait for him to be succeeded by another Kapellmeister. So says the evidence.

I was the one who told you Gottlob Harrer was already interviewed as his successor. And that too is a fact.

So, what exactly am I denying ? Nothing. I am denying only your idea that Handel and Bach were one and the same man.




Are you now questioning JSBach's continuous Leipzig Thomaskirche Kantor presence, the uniqueness and integrity of your "idol" maybe, or perhaps Handel's well known composition of Brockes oratorio ?

The fact is Bach systematically directed Handel's "Brocke's passion" from 1746 to 1749*,the 1748 pasticcio included, and it's up to you, the musicologist, to explain why Wolf (Footnote 42 of his “Bach”) believes that after 31 March 1749 oratoria that were not deemed appropriate for Leipzig’s main churches were performed in the Grand Concerts Hall such as Handel’s Brocke’s passion and Kaiser-Handel Markus pasticcio!

You, who were infact asking yourself not long ago in this thread how Heinrich von Brühl could fortell , on 2 June 1749, the eventual ... decease of Mr. Bach requesting in parallel that his music director, Gottlob Harrer, fill the post of Thomascantor and Director musices.

Or were you perhaps asking me?

*a highly critical period historicaly that defined "Bach's" early "death".

[yanni]

You have convinced me Robert! Wurst making IS a science!

[Musicology]

And you have convinced me of the same Yanni !!!

Antonio Vivaldi/arranged by J.S. Bach
Concerto
BWV 1065/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apbf5lcyO-s&feature=related

[yanni]

And another wuerstlein for you:

Bach visited Berlin in 1719 to pay 130 Thalers for a harpsichord purchased by Leopold, Prince of Anhalt-Köthen. At some time during the visit, the composer met with Christian Ludwig and impressed him. In hopes of gaining patronage from the margrave, Bach presented him with a set of concertos on March 24, 1721. Frederick William I preferred the music of George Frideric Handel, however, and Christian Ludwig lacked enough musicians to perform Bach's concertos. Hence the margrave was obliged to decline Bach's offer[4] and the concertos were never performed in Berlin during the composer's lifetime. Nevertheless, the compositions became known as the Brandenburg Concertos after they were found in Brandenburg's archives in the 19th century.[5]

Souvlaki is my speciality!

However, Handel was in London at the time(21st of March 1721) of Bach's presentation of his concerti to the Margrave, thus, accident-prone-helicopter excluded, it appears that your position they were two different persons was correct all along !

"Dovrò dunque morire?"
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=wnqGttNBTS0&feature=related

But, hold on, he could have posted his concerti, could he not?

I am at a loss you see: The verb used, "presented", implies a physical presence somehow and an honest source would have used "mailed" or "send by courrier" if such was the case, isn't it so?

What do your trustworthy sources say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-pZgI3FeJ0

Bach did in fact "send" his concerti to the Margrave. :"Schickt" is the verb used by the goodsite....

http://www.preussen-chronik.de/episode_jsp/key=chronologie_002480.html,the

....(#4 source of post 127 above-quote) ie relative wiki article on the Brandenburg concertos is misleading the reader into believing that he was physically present.

He was not! Infact he was taking part in a music contest in the Royal Academy of London "to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers", ie his job was in question at the time:

Quoting from http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

1721 -- A contest! (36)
23 March : Completes composition of Act 3 of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13). (NOTE: The directors of the Royal Academy decided to settle the incipient rivalry between its three house composers by inviting each to submit one act of a composite opera. Act 1 was composed by Filippo Amadei; Act 2 was composed by Giovanni Bononcini; Act 3 was composed by GFH.) Handel is deemed the victor of the contest.
The contemporary British satirist John Byrom (1691-1763) writes with reference to the Handel-Bononcini rivalry (This feud put the Bononcinists against the Handelists. The Duke of Marlborough and most of the nobility favored Bononcini; but the Prince of Wales, with Alexander Pope and Dr. John Arbuthnot, supported Handel) :
Some say, compar'd to Buononcinny
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny.
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle:
Strange that this difference there should be
Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!

(NOTE: The last two lines have been attributed to Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.)

24 March : J.S. Bach dedicates concertos to the Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg.
2 April : Advertisements appear in both the Daily Courant and Daily Post:
At the King's Theatre in the Hay-Market, Saturday next, being the 11th Day of April, will be perform'd a new opera call'd MUTIUS SCAEVOLA. Tickets will be deliver'd on Friday, at Mr. White's Chocolate House in St. James Street.

11 April : The première of Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) is interrupted by the announcement of the birth of the Duke of Cumberland to the royal family.
15 April : Muzio Scevola (HWV 13) premires. [KT]
5 July : A new cantata, probably Crudel tiranno amor (HWV 97), is sung by Margherita Durastanti (soprano) at her benefit concert. [KT]
1 November : Opera season opens.
25 November : Radamisto (HWV 12b) is revived. [KT]
28 November : Completes composition of Floridante (HWV 14).
9 December : Floridante (HWV 14) premieres. [KT]
JS Bach marries 2nd wife, Anna Magdalena Wilcke.
Telemann invited by the city of Hamburg to become Kantor of the Johanneum and Director Musices (musical director) of the city's five main churches.
Domenico Scarlatti joins the court of the King of Portugal. [Lisbon]

"Dedicates" is still the wrong translation of "shickt" (aesthetically is a better choice however) the suspicion of "intent to mislead" strengthened by:
a)the insertion of verse between Handel's 23rd March contest and Bach's 24th March letter or dedication and
b) the "ommission" to date the pro Handel decision.

In conclusion:

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

If only they wouldn't do it so crudely and so systematically, I add.

END OF SUBJECT.

PS 1 Hope you are well and still reading this thread, Robert: Compared to Bach/Handel's "manufacture", Mozart comes out an angel afterall!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPgB6IBrPhU&feature=related

PS 2: Of note:
-Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

[Musicology]

This is one part of a late cantata by J.S. Bach commissioned, written and performed against huge opposition from even the University of Leipzig. Written by the composer of the 'Brandenburg Concertos'. His answer to those wished to ignore his music. You should hear all of it. And, to end, a movement from the concerto BWV 1064. It also ends my contribution here -

Cantata 198

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Vc4tJv6Gg&feature=related

Concerto BWV 1064/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bem-aWFns4c&feature=related

As for G.F. Handel, I suggest you read works such as the following -

S. Taylor: ''The Scale of the Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge University Press -1906)

'All things musical have redemption as its centre and that is their form. So that you reach out - although you see you have already been reached'.(J.S. Bach).

Regards to you Yanni

[yanni]

Bach's TRAUER ODE for the Funeral of Queen Christiane Eberhardine of Poland/Saxony. Performed at a special Memorial Service, the University Paulinerkirche, Leipzig, on October 17th, 1727 with Bach himself at the harpsichord
Libretto by Gottshed (a known opponent of operatic music in general, he made an exception for 198 however!!).

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

To enable readers fully appreciate the "theatrical-italian style" and history of "Bach's" cantata 198, you'll have first to discover and disclose the funeral music (and its composer) that accompanied King George I to his last home (Berggarten Mausoleum, Hannover, Saxony) June 1727!

George I's favorite, Handel (responsible or at least blamed for the scandalous quarell between Bordoni and Cuzzoni that interrupted Bononcini's Astianatte on June the 6th, 1727, ending the season) must have been in the company of the King, escaping to Hannover for the last time(suffered a stroke June 9th, died June 11th, was buried the 14th).

"Bach" next is on record 25 August 1727 at the inauguration of Leipzig town council (Ihr Tore zu Zion, BWV 193, hardly suitable for the occasion).

After Queen Christiane's Leipzig funeral October 17th, Handel/Bach returned to London in time for his Riccardo primo, re d’Inghilterra (Richard the First, King of England; HWV 23), premierered London on 11 November 1727.

In the meantime he was commissioned to write(!!) -(original source ple-e-ease!!)- four new anthems for the coronation of King George II, October the 4th, 1727: Another crossing is perhaps possible- July or September-yet uncomfortable-and his presence at the coronation is not on record..

Telemann's "influence" in all above is very likely. Telemann's control of "the industry" at the time is well known whereas his identity still remains a mystery!

The Royal Academy of Music was closed in 1728.

Regards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i150-v5pjHI&feature=related

[Musicology]

The Venetian/Papally controlled career of G.F. Handel

'Handel's' works supplied through more than 20 composers including wholesale theft of operas performed by Reinhard Keiser - Adonis and Janus, also the same Reinhard Keiser - La forza della virtu - again Reinhard Keiser - Claudius and Nebuchadnezer, Francesco Gasparini - et al - Ambleto & Giovanni Porta Numitore - Carl Heinrich Graun's - Passion, ‘Komt her und schaut’ & Antonio Lotti -, Mass 6, - by Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Il Pompeo’, - Alessandro Scarlatti - ‘Dafni’ - by Giovanni Bononcini - ‘Il Xerxe’ - by Agostino Steffani - La lotte de Hercole con Acheloo - Miscellaneous MS Sources and the usual inventions of the fraternity elites who have manufactured musical 'history'. Plus at least 200 other works by other composers.

Add to this the following excerpt -

‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni).

This is the same Cardinal Ottoboni who (together with 4 other cardinals) patronised the career of Handel while he was in Rome and Venice. This before his first arrival in England. The facts of which were hidden from public knowledge during the start of the Hanoverian dynasty of George 1st onwards. In fact, Handel’s arrival in England began with performing numerous works which are today recognised NOT to be by G.F. Handel. The above librettist of ‘Saul’ and of ‘Messiah’ was not the first to notice this fake aspect of Handel’s career. Which continued at every stage of Handel's career. How unfortunate he did not meet J.S. Bach. But now I think we know why.

Regards

[yanni]

Cantata 198 and BWV 193 are, ofcourse, not the only works by Bach/Handel that clearly show his italian theater music (opera) early learning, influences and preferences, obvious in all his compositions (by others or his own) but they outrank the rest because, as funeral music, they were both much too "light", too "theatrical" if not bohemian for the occasion and the relative tastes of the average north european listener of his time (and they propably still are).

This inherent "problem", obvious in all his music, did not escape the attention of the Leipzig council in 1722 when a new cantor was needed to take the place of Kunau at Thomaskirche: Fears were expressed at the time that Bach's music would be too theatrical for their ideal cantor but employed him nevertheless:
Handel/Bach was "well connected" already. He accepted the post even if it was for him a step downwards in the social scale, and he had little respect for his employers who maintained the same opinion of him and his music to the end:
When the decision was taken to destroy "Bach" for "Handel" in 1750 Councillor Stieglitz expressed the opinion, ten days after Bach’s "death": The school needs a Kantor, not a Kapellmeister.*

BUT

The "within the box" myth of "Bach's" biography fails to explain to satisfaction his -ultimately italian- influences and wants readers to believe he, the idol of german "baroque-church" or "sacred" music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1x-62WmrI spend the rest of his life in a second rate post, practically unknown for almost thirty years there (and the next fifty or so, the hot potato of his double life hard to touch) , depressed, while giving his famous alter ego, Handel, all sorts of names (his "celibacy" even interpreted as homosexuality-Orpheo) for his choice to "survive" in London for eight more years.

Well, evil clowns have controlled music all along and musicologists can be no exception!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,

Your "music" is the exact opposite of Handel/Bach's but somehow I don't believe that playing the same monotone on your monochord- while evading each and every issue raised -will get you thru the gate to Zion**

Regards.

*Text in italic by Guido De Winne, 2004.

**Meaning Paradise at the time (to avoid any misunderstanding) whereas "Tore" (ie gate) has in the meantime been often interpreted as "tears".


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
On Tuesday night in Clackamas County fire fighters were called out after the Oregon City owners of the camel phoned to say that Moses had fallen into a sinkhole 6 to 8 feet (about 2 metres) deep, and was possibly injured.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The fact is that G.F. Handel's career was stage managed. As already indicated. It was stage managed before Handel even left Germany and at the time when he was recruited by the Italians and by the British. Before he ever arrived in Rome and Venice. And before he ever arrived in England. So say thousands of facts.

And you are telling us G.F. Handel wrote the 'Brandenburg Concertos' !

I think readers can decide this issue for themselves from the evidence. Only some of which I have presented. This must be very embarrasing for your theory. Shall I give you the full list ? You already have about 10% of the evidence. But enough to prove that your theory is wrong.

It seems most honest people want facts, not innuendos. I have provided some. They are documented facts and they are indisputable although little known. And now you have good reason to modify your views. None of which you have acknowledged.

Yanni, most composer heroes of the 18th century were manufactured. With few exceptions. Bach and Zelenka being exceptions.

Anyway, regards

[yanni]

Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

[Musicology]

Thank you for completely ignoring my recent posts on the true career of G.F. Handel. A faked career, in fact. Quite typical of 18th century music. But ignoring posts is a tactic you often use when facts get in the way of your speculations. Nothing you have posted supports your theory and therefore we go round and round in circles.

I will post on Post 130 later.



Thanks for reminding me to add to my #130 post above (on the Brandenburg concertos), what Wolf writes on the "matter":

About the beginning of August 1721 he gave a performance of some unspecified kind for Count Heinrich XI Reuss of Schleiz; this may have been arranged by J.S. Koch, the Kantor there, who had held a post at Mühlhausen, though possibly not in Bach’s time there. On 15 June 1721 Bach was the 65th communicant at St Agnus; one ‘Mar. Magd. Wilken’ was the 14th. This may well have been Bach’s future wife – the mistake in the first name is an easy one – but Anna Magdalena makes no formal appearance until 25 September, when Bach and she were the first two among the five godparents of a child called Hahn. This baptism is recorded in three registers. In two of them Anna is described as ‘court singer’, in the third, simply as 'chamber Musician’ ('Musicantin'). In September Anna was again a godmother, to a child called Palmarius; again the registers differ in describing her occupation. Her name does not appear in court accounts until summer 1722, when she is referred to as the Kapellmeister’s wife; her salary (half Bach’s) is noted as paid for May and June 1722*

Would you care completing re timeline of post 130 and then interpret it for the benefit of the readers?

I don't really need to!

Regards.

*Kuhnau, Kantor of the Thomasschule, died 5 June 1722.

Yanni has asked me to comment on his Post 130 although it says nothing that is not already well known. But here goes -

1. Yes, Bach did send the 'Brandenburg' concertos by post. This is a fact already known by every person who has ever read anything of musical history. It is not a revelation. Is it ? It is a plain, indisputable and well known fact. You believe this. I believe this. And so does everyone else. Has anyone ever, even once, suggested differently ? No. What, exactly, is your point here ?

2. You then move on to an alleged musical 'contest' between Bononcini and Handel in London in 1721. (Which everyone who has read about Handel's career already knows also). It does not tell us Handel is J.S. Bach. But you have conveniently forgotten Bononcini was already supplying music in London to.... G.F. Handel ! This fact conveniently forms no part of your post !! The 'support' given to Handel on that occasion (by Romanist occultists such as the Prince of Wales, Alexander Pope, and Dr. John Arbuthnot) is completely ignored also !! Men who had been in contact with Rome and Venice from the earliest days of Handel's stay in Venice and Italy !!! And while Handel the 'protestant' was being treated like a celebrity by no less than 6 cardinals in Rome and Venice this too forms no part of your education. These 'supporters' of the stage managed career of G.F. Handel make your point laughable.

3. 24th March of the same year J.S. Bach dedicates the 'Brandenburg' Concertos to Margrave Christian Ludwig of Brandenburg. Yes Yanni, you have at least got that right. Well done !!

4. Your 'conclusion' is also laughable. You write -

Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee were one and the same person and Hesiod was right: "The Muses often lie".

So, this is Yanni's 'proof' GF Handel and J.S. Bach were one and the same person !!!!!!!!!! I wonder what readers will think of this as 'proof' of anything. It is a thinner argument than to believe we can make chicken soup from the shadow of a chicken !!

And he ends with this -

Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 et 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings.

-Samuel Cocceji became Prussia's Kammergerichtspräsident (president of the superior court of justice) in 1723.

In reply -

I have repeatedly in earlier posts refered to the Cocchi clan - whose job was to stamp out any musical career which was not approved by Rome. I have also, in earlier posts refered to the fact of one Cocchi's employment by Lord Theophile Hastings. (Both of them were up to their eyeballs in occultism and Romanist controlled fraternities). None of which are relevant to this issue.

As for Samuel Cocceji becoming Prussia's Kammergerichtsprasident (President of the Superior Court of Justice) in 1723, this proves only the occultists controlling art and culture were quickly closing any possible recognition of Bach's career. By ignoring his achievements completely. In fact (although you do not mention it) the 'Brandenburg' concertos (like the Musical Offering) were completely ignored by its recipient. As usual. The latter piece being designed to defeat any ordinary composer. A pattern of behaviour which continued, even in England, and especially in western Europe, for many decades after Bach's death in 1750.

In the meantime the fraudulent celebrity Handel became a European musical phenonmenon. Despite the fact (already posted) that he, G.F. Handel, was being massively supplied by operatic and music from the start by over 20 'friendly' composers, all associated with the growing Romanist control of art and culture (in Rome, Venice, London and elsewhere) that had started in Bach's lifetime. A plain, documented, verifiable fact. As I have shown repeatedly. Including a letter of the time from Handel's own librettist in London. And numerous others. Speaking of the use of music recently sent by a Romanist cardinal. How embarrasing for you Yanni !

I must congratulate you for proving the opposite of what you suppose ! The animosity and resistance to every stage of Bach's career is, again, a documented, plain, indisputable fact of history. The 'city of music' finally realised this music decades after Handel, Bach, and all Handel's 'helpers' were long dead.

Such are the facts. And they will forever remain. They assert themselves. As truth always does -

J.S. Bach
Cantata 80
Und Wenn die Welt voll Teufel war
(On Chorale by Martin Luther)

Musical Art !! You will forgive me thinking this too was not written in Rome. Nor by G.F. Handel. Nor even the countless Cocchis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WcDjbRSN6o&feature=related

Regards

[yanni]

Example of correct translation of Bach's own (ahemm!) words

Guido De Winne wrote (January 30, 2004):

During 1720 Bach made fair copies of the works for unaccompanied violin, and must have been preparing the Brandenburg Concertos, whose autograph full score was dedicated on 24 March 1721 to the Margrave Christian Ludwig, before whom Bach had played in Berlin while negotiating for the new Cöthen harpsichord, between June 1718 and March 1719. What he played is not known; but he was invited to send in some compositions. As he himself said he took ‘a couple of years’ over this commission, and then submitted six works written to exploit the resources of Cöthen. Such resources do not seem to have been available to the Margrave of Brandenburg, and it is not really surprising that he did not thank Bach, send a fee or use the score
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert,

The correct translation of "schiks" is "sends" (alternatively "mails", "posts", "delivers by courrier").

"Presented" is wrong and misleading at best (its outright fraud imo but so is almost everything concerning Handel/Bach) whereas "dedicated" is, as already said, aestheticaly better but stil wrong, misleading etc.

The use of a wrong and misleading translation by two different british Handel/Bach scholars furthermore is indicative of a pattern, confirmed finally by ...

...your refusal to:

-address in detail (instead of "empty" -ie beside the point-answers, a sentence by sentence commentary, as I often did on your posts on Mozart) issues raised by me, such as Bach's systematic use of Handel's music (Brocke's passion, post #122)

-provide-previously asked for-british "original sources ple-e-ease"

-challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel

-satisfactorily explain, much like all other musicologists, Bach's inherent influences of french-italian-bohemian music.

Regards.

[Musicology]

Yanni has asked about -

''Bach's systematic use of Handel's music''.

Goodness, Yanni, you are really a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is yet another work credited to Handel. The facts are that it is widely recognised to be very difficult to attribute it to Handel. It was first set to music not by GF Handel nor even by JS Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this for yourself before you make a bigger fool of yourself ? And this was later set to music by another composer, Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever remotely associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two different composers who, (just by one of those remarkable coincidences !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. It seems to have escaped you. Nor do you know 3 operas associated with the same Keiser had been stolen and used by G.F. Handel before he, Handel, ever came to England !! In fact before Handel ever left Germany. That has also escaped you. It is yet another chapter of musical history that seems to have escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at its perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture of what is happening yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works over years) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. In fact Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed as everyone knows. The works of Antonio Vivaldi are only one such example. There are literally dozens of well known examples. They are even available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was STILL being attributed to the same Keiser and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start). This now being credited by others to GF Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the other 'Handel' work !

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at each and every stage of his career (as repeatedly said) quantities of operatic and church music from numerous other composers - (even when these works have a history of being attributed to Keiser, to Telemann and others) we must blame this growing nonsense on the Kapellmeister of Leipzig, J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!! And the worst thing is it's really not your fault. I am giving you my considered view of these facts, having said from the start that composers of the 18th century, and specially those who have iconic status in the 'history of music' were being artificially manufactured. Of which the musical career of G.F. Handel is but one example. That 'machine' was operating in Bach's own lifetime and continued to operate in the case of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart, and even Ludwig van Beethoven. Since the evidence is already growing in the case of Handel it is for you to decide whether it has any relevance to your Bach/Handel theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_1A7oeI&feature=related

[yanni]

Anyone going thru http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm can see that Handel's biography is but an unsuccessful effort to separate Handel/Bach into two individual persons.

Whatever Handel composed, created, copied or conducted, Bach did, so your attacks against Handel are in fact reflected on Bach (his own life story full of attempts to find a better paying master, just like Handel) and it was I who first mentioned the unknown Telemann.

But, do not interupt your attempt to keep you baloon up: Please proceed to answer whatever more you can afford from my previous.

Ta-ta!



Yanni has asked about -

Bach's systematic use of Handel's music.

Goodness, Yanni, you are a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in any detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is another work credited to Handel which was first set to music not by Handel or even by Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this before you make a fool of yourself ? And it was later set to music by Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two composers who, (just by a remarkable coincidence !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. Nor do you know 3 of this same Keiser's operas were stolen and used by Handel before he ever came to England !! That fact also has escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at their perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed. The works of Vivaldi are only one example. There are dozens of such examples. They are available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard there while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was still being attributed to the same Hamburg KEISER and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start as we have seen above). This now being credited by others to Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the 'Handel' work.

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at every stage of his career quantities of operatic and church music from various other composers - even when it already has a history of being attributed to Keiser, Telemann and others we must blame this nonsense on J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_1A7oeI&feature=related

[Musicology]

I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

[yanni]

"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.



I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

[Musicology]

Yes, and if Beethoven said so, it must be true, right Yanni ? The same Beethoven who said Mozart must have written 'his' Requiem (although it was proved in 1825 to be by numerous other composers including Michael Haydn of Salzburg).

The same Beethoven who, in 1783, as a 13 year old boy, was recruited and cared for by the same fraternities who had patronised Mozart. Who patronised his family (courtesy of the British Empire). And the child prodigy described in the Illuminati publication 'Cramer's Magazine' (of that same year) as 'the next Mozart'.

With such 'evidences' we can only laugh Beethoven's standard endorsement of the legendary Handel. Must be Count Waldstein and his close association with occultists at Dux and elsewhere. Casanova must be laughing.

You really should listen to music by Beethoven's contemporaries - almost none of whom are recorded or performed. As usual.

Take George Onslow (1784-1853), for example. 'George...who' ?? As famous as Beethoven during Beethoven's lifetime in Vienna and in Berlin and across Europe but airbrushed out of the 'history of music'. With all the rest. What's new ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b



"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

[yanni]

May I remind you that this thread (on Handel and JSBach being the same person) still awaits the rest of your answers as above (post#139)?

If you find this is too difficult to do, just challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel.

PS For Beethoven I suggest you google for "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" and then laugh if you must.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Most who read this thread will see the sum total of your argument (saying G.F. Handel was J.S. Bach and vice versa !) is based on no musical evidence nor even a single musical manuscript but a coincidence of dates, these crushed and spun inside your brain with the added fact (strangely denied by you) that fraternities were controlling western music - a fact anyone can agree with. And which involved clans such as Cocchi's (and many others) of which I'm aware. Beyond all doubt the career of G.F. Handel was massively manufactured at every stage. For reasons that require us to know a little more of the history of those times.

This manufacturing of famous musical careers became very common in the 18th century. It was part of the control of music as an emerging cultural and academic industry. It was a feature of the so-called 'enlightenment'. It later involved the writing of 'music history' as we know it. With the assistance of many music editors, the works of other composers whose names and careers are today largely forgotten, corrupt patrons, publishers and the usual Vaticanised control of a now 'secularised' world. And those who were not part of this system were marginalised, forgotten and suppressed from the pages of what is read and taught. This is fact. And Handel, Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven are examples of manufactured composers. I think any fair minded reader can see this. Mozart is a prime example.

Anyway, thank you. You should do more on the Cocchi clan and on the role of other manipulators of reality. It's a subject now being increasingly studied.

Handel learned that he, as a 'protestant composer' could still depend on the full support of Rome and Venice (supported by numerous cardinals and popes) in an age of ruthless biogtry and prejudice. Which fact you find easy to gloss over, as usual. You should add the influence of Britain, Rome and Venice.

The difficulty is only of not seeing the wood for the trees. You might try reading more history of these times and starting again. Because although I find nothing at all in your Handel/Bach idea there is value in your research and I think you have some idea of the scale of deliberate misinformation that is ours to expose simply by being honest.

A composer of tremendous talent -

Jan Dismas Zelenka
(1679-1745)
"Missa Votiva" in E Minor ZWV18 - Mov. 7-9/20 (1739)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1bGV--R5xE&feature=related


Best wishes

[yanni]

Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

[Musicology]

Any wall we survive intact makes us stronger.

We cannot prove a negative. But we can prove a positive.


Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

[yanni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

[Musicology]

The so-called 'Mozart' arrangement of 'Handel's' Oratorium 'Der Messias' is not by W.A. Mozart. It is by Joseph Starzer (1726-87) and others including Andrea Luchesi.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

[yanni]

If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I am not in the habit of going round and round in circles. Starzer was Starzer. He was not Josef Haydn. Starzer died before Josef Haydn came to London. Josef Haydn was Josef Haydn. If Starzer was not Starzer you can waste your time in inventing the idea that he was Ronald Macdonald. Starzer was (I must tell you) Starzer. That is who he was. And Starzer was not Mozart. Nor was Mozart Starzer. He was Mozart. And Bach was Bach. Bach was not Starzer also. Nor was he Mozart. And, as for Handel, he was not Mozart, nor was he Starzer, and nor was he Bach or Haydn. He was Handel.

I am so glad we sorted that out !!

And, if not....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRbOjqOSYs&feature=fvw

:driving:



If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/showthread.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

[yanni]

Unless you change your habits, Robert, you'll never manage to surface from underneath the already characterized Grove-ling pile.

Furthermore:

-You just can't quote and approve one day Dennis Pajot (http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297! and http://www.talkclassical.com/1621-did-mozart-really-master.html, ), on Mozart copying or borrowing Haydn's "Bach" adaptations, and next blame me for reaching the same conclusion following another road (my timeline, not music), while changing your own previous tune to "Starzer did it" just to contradict me. Awfully rude manners (or perhaps Dr Alzheimer is to blame)!

-Have you perhaps concluded in the meantime thru original research that Joseph Starzer adapted or arranged "Handel-Mozart's Messiah" of 1803? Have you ever published or announced even such discovery to your fellow musicologists? Do tell us, ple-e-ase!

Apart from his 1757-176?' service in Russia (a highly indicative and suspect period, a highly critical post) Starzer has practically no biography* and the few works attributed to him are not significant enough to qualify him as Handel/Bach's succesor ie arranger! He may have nevertheless existed and may even have participated in performances of said adaptations somehow, somewhere, but that's all I am afraid!

Moreover:

You have already graced yourself aplenty by not being able to provide a single date (well sourced) when Bach was someplace else than Handel and the fact that at van Swieten's only Handel/Bach was played "graces" your dogmatic obstinacy even more, again "musicaly"!

For van Swieten's relations to Mozart, Haydn, Waldstein, Beethoven, the Bonn circle, the "Koch" music archive etc etc, see "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54106&page=8) and earlier threads.

Ta-ta!

*Starzer is also on record for his ballet works and cooperation with Angiolini (or Giuseppe Canziani): Google for them in last thread above!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

We have to use what we have. The 'Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians' (with a few other sources) are the standard reference works of their kind in the English speaking musical world. They are at least the starting point of what is taught and believed. From them we can make a start. But nobody is more critical of them than myself on Handel, Haydn, Mozart etc. So I must disagree with you. We start with them and from them we can go elsewhere.

Denis Pajot was not only talking of 'Handel' works such as Messiah. None of whose oratorios were actually arranged by Mozart. He was also talking about various Bach arrangements which are wrongly attributed to Mozart. Both of these things are plain fact. Mozart did not make these 'Handel' arrangements. Nor did he make the arrangements of Bach. Though all of them are usually (and falsely) attributed to Mozart. Pajot is one of dozens of people who know these arrangements may not be by Mozart. There are numerous other people who say the same. And there are good reasons to say so.

On the subject of Starzer, there is no doubt at all that he was involved in the falsification of Mozart's career. That he was an important part of the 'music industry' of the late 18th century. And yes, his career ties in with all the rest.

I have many references to his career besides that of the 'Grove' dictionary - here is one from the Cambridge Mozart Encyclopaedia -

Starzer, Joseph (Johann Michael) (baptized Vienna, 5 Jan. 1728; d. Vienna, 22 Apr. 1787). A prolific composer of ballet scores, Starzer lived and worked in Vienna, aside from eight years at the Russian court (1759–67), collaborating with leading choreographers such as Franz Hilverding, Jean-Georges Noverre and Angiolini. In 1772 he became leader of the charitable organization for musicians in Vienna, the Tonkunstler-Soziezat, that he helped to set up a year earlier. He participated frequently in the society’s activities as violinist, composer and conductor and, acting on Baron van Swieten’s suggestion in 1779, arranged Handel’s 'Judas Maccabaeus' for the society’s concerts.

Like Mozart, Starzer participated in Baron van Swieten’s regular Sunday concerts, often singing tenor. Their paths crossed elsewhere too. In March 1781 Starzer invited Mozart to play in a Tonkunstler concert and had to persuade Archbishop Colloredo (who still employed Mozart) to allow him to do so. Starzer’s death in 1787 paved the way for Mozart’s court appointment as composer in the Kammermusik (6 Dec. 1787).

(p.491) etc.

//

So there is clear evidence Handel arrangements of 'Mozart' made in Vienna were those of Starzer and not any by Mozart. 'Judas Maccabeus' is only one example. (Starzer was not the only one involved in this). And, as usual, these were attributed to 'Mozart'.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1004420

Why was all this intrigue in the production of 18th century music ? The answer is simple. There was something real. And what was real was music of what is called the late baroque. Which, for decades involved men discussing the subject freely across the religious and social barriers of Europe. But that was not welcomed. For many reasons. It exposed certain weaknesses amongst the works of the time. So the elites tightened up by producing a string of their own manufactured heroes. Throwing away achievements and ignoring others. Manufacturing in its place the input of many of their own fraternity members. Wholesale. And to achieve it they even wrote their own official version of musical history. That's what we now call the music industry.

But Bach was not Handel. The thing is, Yanni, you have to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LoW_H1TNoE&feature=related

I will post some more details of Starzer later.

[yanni]

Don't bother, I am not interested for another bucketfull of empty words.

Stick to your pile and good luck!

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni,

Starzer is certainly an elusive character.

Josef Starzer - 4 Dances

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiv01Kp7TI4

Also -

http://books.google.com/books?id=6YeFMCDQg-sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=FETIS&hl=en&ei=bJGYTKvULpD94AbywJFa&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=STARZER&f=false

Autobiography of Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf.

http://books.google.com/books?id=c3w49H4heVoC&pg=PA55&dq=starzer&hl=en&ei=pJKYTPy6J8OQjAe_8O0h&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=starzer&f=false

Wikipedia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Starzer

There is no doubt that Starzer's career was closely associated with the circle of Mozart. As was that of Dittersdorf and so many others.


Don't bother, I am not interested for another bucketfull of empty words.

Stick to your pile and good luck!

[yanni]

Music was highly valuable then( as a tool for controlling the masses or royalty) and hence under much stricter control than it is today. With Haydn present in Vienna, the suggestion that Starzer adapted Handel's Messiah instead of him (who is known today to have been inspired by Handel during his first stay in London-oratoria) is but a proof of ignorance.

Let alone Haydn's true identity, diplomatic influence and propable blood relation to Handel/Bach (JSKoch)!

Furthermore, between 1784 and 1815, everybody had something to hide (biographies, letters, diaries etc) and after that everybody had his own national reasons to use such lies as deemed "apropriate" for their interest.

Its not just Grove who is full of "it"!

[MarkBastable]

I hope you two are getting paid for this double-act. It's hugely entertaining,.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Josef Haydn did not visit London until Starzer was already dead. (Starzer died in 1787 and Haydn only visited London twice (1791-2 and again between 1794-5). As for Handel/Bach/JSKoch/Cocchi and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, I think this is sheer fiction.

No, it's not just 'Grove' which is full of fiction. That is why we must dig very deeply to know how this control of art and culture could ever have arisen, and how. Haydn could hardly hold a pen in his hand when he was in London (both times) and if you examine the facts you will see this is true.



Music was highly valuable then( as a tool for

controlling the masses or royalty) and hence under much stricter control than it is today. With Haydn present in Vienna, the suggestion that Starzer adapted Handel's Messiah instead of him (who is known today to have been inspired by Handel during his first stay in London-oratoria) is but a proof of ignorance.

Let alone Haydn's true identity, diplomatic influence and propable blood relation to Handel/Bach (JSKoch)!

Furthermore, between 1784 and 1815, everybody had something to hide (biographies, letters, diaries etc) and after that everybody had his own national reasons to use such lies as deemed "apropriate" for their interest.

Its not just Grove who is full of "it"!

[yanni]

The theory that Starzer was behind Handel's Messiah adaptation by Mozart is all yours and all wrong. What "you think" is irrelevant.

Bach genealogists/researchers may be pleased to know that a Theophylact Bache is on record in Philadelphia-New York (where Handel's Messiah was first performed 1770-Burns Coffee shop) among the "rebels". He married Ben Franklin's only daughter Sarah, herself highly praised by french general and composer Chastellux, visiting Philadelphia.

[Musicology]

Handel genealogists/researchers may be pleased to know it was not 'Philadelphia/NewYork' 'Burn's Coffee Shop' where Handel's 'Messiah' was first performed in America in 1770. Nor do coffee shops or taverns perform sacred oratorios. (Unless they are 'Handel' oratorios, of course ! ;)

The actual venue for a (partial) performance of 'Messiah' that year (1770) appears to have been New York City's Trinity Church.

('Burn's Coffee House' in New York became (before 1780) known as 'Cape's Tavern'. And in 1783 'Cape's Tavern' in New York held a party for the French Minister. There are, today, in most major cities of the world men and women with the name Bache/Bach and other variants of the same. Indeed, here is the known distribution of families named Bach in the USA in 1920 - from which you will see there were several hundred).

http://www.ancestry.com/facts/bach-family-history.ashx

[yanni]

You are wrong, as usual!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I am always wrong. And you are always right. The difference between us is that I produce evidence but you, always being right, need to produce none. Infallibility has its privileges and its purgatories, yes ?

Regards


You are wrong, as usual!

Yes Yanni. I will tell this to the editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime. But that too will be irrelevant, of course ! And a further publication which even says Mozart did NOT do an arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah'. This too will no doubt be irrelevant.


The theory that Starzer was behind Handel's Messiah adaptation by Mozart is all yours and all wrong. What "you think" is irrelevant.

[yanni]

http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/news/blogs/the-archivists-mailbag/the-true-story-of-the-first-performance-of-messiah-in-the-new-world


Yanni,

I am always wrong. And you are always right. The difference between us is that I produce evidence but you, always being right, need to produce none. Infallibility has its privileges and its purgatories, yes ?

Regards

When you do decide to grace us with passages, name and dates of sources, do let us know in advance !


Yes Yanni. I will tell this to the editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime. But that too will be irrelevant, of course ! And a further publication which even says Mozart did NOT do an arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah'. This too will no doubt be irrelevant.

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni, and if you decide to post us proofs of Mozart making an arrangement of the 'Messiah' please let us know of them. In Halifax, England, is an 18th century arrangement of another 'Handel' work 'Judas Maccabeus' which has on its title page the name of 'Mozart'. But it is definitely not an arrangement of Mozart. It's yet another example of the same familiar story. Does this in any way convince you we are dealing with false musical attribution. Still another example, that is ?

Which brings me to other 'arrangements' attributed to Mozart - amongst them some by Bach.

In the Köchel Catalogue of Mozart's works listed under K404a are six 3-part Fugues arranged for String Trio. By J.S. Bach (and one by W.F.Bach) Fugues -

Nr.1 Anon.Adagio Fugue= WTC I, Nr.8 D# minor (transposed to d-minor).

Nr.2 Anon.Adagio Fugue= WTC II, Nr.12 in F#major (transposed to F)

Nr.3 Anon.Adagio Fugue =WTC II Nr.14 in F# minor (transposed to g minor).

Nr.4 JS Bach Adagio (BWV527) Fugue from Art of Fugue Contrapunctus 8

Nr.5 JS Bach Largo and Fugue from Organ Sonata BWV 526

Nr.6 Anon.Adagio Fugue=WF Bach Fugue in f-minor (Falk No.31/8)

Mozart's authorship of these Fugue arrangements and of the 4 anonymous Adagios was only first suggested by Wilhelm Rust first in 1860, nearly 70 years after Mozart's death ! It must be remembered these arrangements are all anonymous, not in Mozart's hand, not once refered to in the 18th century and were made in the 19th Century. Nor does anyone mention Mozart's name in connection with them. Let's credit them to Mozart anyway, right ? I mean, Yanni will accept them as genuine Mozart, right ?

In 1903 Ernst Lewicki described the special character of these pieces and thought it would be a great idea publish the pieces even though Mozart's authorship was as fragile as usual. So the Mozart industry complied. Well in to the 20th century Einstein (1936) followed this monkey business with his special line of reasoning to attribute these pieces to Mozart. To Einstein the only other composer besides Mozart who could have written these pieces was Johann Georg Albrechtsberger. ''As able and estimable Albrechtsberger was, a glance at the prelude (quoted in the article) is sufficient to show that no other master than Mozart could have written it". So editor Einstein placed these arrangements in the next version of the Mozart catalogue as K404a. These pieces were next published by Johann Nepomuk David (1938) as Mozart's work. And so it goes on.

'Mozart's' Bach arrangements were not, in fact, by Mozart (but by others of the van Sweiten circle in Vienna and much later wrongly attributed to Mozart ).

Prior to the time when Mozart allegedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten (and responabible for making arrangements) was NOT W.A. Mozart (although that too is of course irrelevant, right Yanni) ? but composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

'Sonnleithner reported other views from Vienna. Court Capellmeister Eybler stated the full score in the Royal Kaiser archive was "credited to Starzer". Abt. Stadler and Mosel commented "to their knowledge only Starzer had instrumented Handel's Judas Maccabeus". In addition many musical people (including Aloys Fuch) assured him there had never been any such Mozart arrangement. Weigl told Sonnleithner that Mozart (as well as Joseph Starzer) had participated in these concerts, but Mozart had never at any time arranged Judas Maccabeus. Weigl stated the Tonkünster-Widow Society only performed the piece in Starzer's arrangement which was "rather good and effective". He stated his copy was that of Starzer's. Weigl concluded "I can with complete conviction declare that a Mozart arrangement or instrumentation of Judas Maccabeus never had existed".

Welcome to the circular world of Mozart attributions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxzlXodc7_E

[yanni]

Would you care to comment also on my #167 above to allow me then to answer both of your posts?

A single "gulp" would do (although I would prefer, because of your religious charisma, your brief description, snapshot like, of events in New York at the time leading Tuckey to give priority to Burns Coffee-House rather than Trinity Church.)

PS I only see one "Yanni" in this thread but you seem to be conversing with another one!!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You believe an entire oratorio (scored for orchestra, soloists and choir) was staged in a coffee shop.

Sorry, but common sense says differently. And common sense is right.




Would you care to comment also on my #167 above to allow me then to answer both of your posts?

A single "gulp" would do (although I would prefer, because of your religious charisma, your brief description, snapshot like, of events in New York at the time leading Tuckey to give priority to Burns Coffee-House rather than Trinity Church.)

PS I only see one "Yanni" in this thread but you seem to be conversing with another one!!

[yanni]

As the same Mr Tuckey was managing both events (taking place within a week of each other) whatever was included in "Handel's Messiah" first New York performance at Burns Coffee Hall, was also performed during the second, at Trinity Church.

So says common sense combined with available online evidence, in disagreement alas, with falsities, propaganda, dogmatism, evasion, distortion, shamelessness and...stupidity!

There is much more on the subject, including Theophylacte-Richard Bache's own involvement in the event, but I let it be for now!

Same for your #169, another demonstration of same qualities as above and more:

The discussion was on Mozart's Handel/Bach's Messiah of 1803, NOT Judas Maccabeus.

Unable or unwilling to name your "editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime" you instead introduce a "Halifax Messiah" by Mozart without naming the source to then copy, for the second time, the same text as before by Dennis Pajot on Handel's Juddas Maccabeus and other works by Handel/Bach, NOT including Messiah however!

Why did you fail to provide the source of the Halifax Messiah?

Because it confirms my conclusion that Haydn/Casanova etc was in control of music at the time, Mozart included, as it was first performed at the Palffy Palace, home of Count Johann Baptist Esterházy ie Haydn's playground wherefrom Mozart got it to then "cover" for Haydn in 1803.

Enough with your nonsense!

I'll continue this thread when recovered from this serious fit of deep disgust you have caused me, hoping in the meantime you'll have disappeared!

[Musicology]

Dear Yanni,

Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

Speaking of that very coffee shop in New York, it was the venue for a celebratory visit by the French Ambassador. In 1783. A big year in USA history. You might check that out also.

I mention this because you need to research more on the family of a certain Baron Bagge (Bache) de Ennal, Charles-Ernest (b. Fockenhof, Kurland 1722 - d. Paris 24th March 1791).

'Bagge'. (The same Baron 'Bagge' of Paris music impresario fame). His family date all the way back to 1066 and the papally approved invasion of England in that year. Since Baron Bagge (Bache's) ancestors came to England with William the Conqueror also. Ask the Jacobin supporter Theophylacte-Richard Bache.

But there was no relation to J.S. Bach of Leipzig. One was a scoundrel and the other was the real article.

Anyway, best wishes

Johann Philipp Kirnberger
Sinfonia B-Dur
(1721-1783)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTNJHIgdfaI&feature=related

And here is some music by his teacher -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clCZgf6-3yQ&feature=related

And, as usual, best wishes.

Robert

As for 'Mozart's' arrangement of Handel oratorios -

"LOST" MOZART PIECE HEARD FOR FIRST TIME ON TRIO
World Premiere of "Mozart Lost & Found," An Original Special

To Air On Trio on October 7 [sic -- reairing 1/16/05]

New York, N.Y. — September 17, 2002</B> -- On Monday, October 7, popular arts channel TRIO will present the world premiere of Mozart: Lost & Found, an original special which presents the discovery of the long-lost manuscript of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s adaptation of G.F. Handel’s oratorio "Judas Maccabaeus". The documentary traces the discovery of the work and is followed by the full orchestral performance of this manuscript for the first time in over 100 years. This special airs exclusively on popular arts channel TRIO, it was announced by Lauren Zalaznick, President, TRIO.
"We’re proud to present this groundbreaking discovery exclusively on TRIO," said Zalaznick. "We will continue to bring TRIO audiences ‘never-before-seen’ programming across different genres that truly reflect our popular arts programming mission."

Hosted by actor Stephen Fry (Gosford Park), Mozart: Lost & Found begins with a 30-minute documentary covering the fascinating story behind the discovery of the music manuscript. Leeds University music scholar Dr. Rachel Cowgill, who found the manuscript, is among the experts interviewed. The history-making piece, dating back to the 1780’s, is presented in a 90-minute concert performed by the Halifax Choral Society in England and conducted by John Pryce Jones.

(Comment - Hogwash) !

//

2. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VkuMBB8BeZoJ:www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/0332542/details.html+mozart+handel+judas+maccabeus&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

3. The idea of writing an arrangement of Handel’s Messiah was not Mozart’s. He was in fact commissioned to do this by Baron Gottfried van Swieten. Van Swieten had founded the "Society of Associates" (Gesellschaft der Associierten) in Vienna, an exclusive circle that organised private performances of oratorios during Lent and at Christmas. Because of the reforms introduced by Emperor Joseph II, church music had suffered from drastic changes to the liturgy that had almost brought about its total demise. For this reason, the emphasis shifted to private performances. The Viennese aristocracy was part of van Swieten’s circle and its members also acted as patrons. For quite some time before he worked on the Messiah, Mozart been part of these concerts – he played cembalo under the direction of the court theatre composer, Starzer, who had already arranged Judas Maccabaeus.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eeS0ydo1sKwJ:www.kuk-art.com/English/Maulbronn/Mozart-Messiah-M.html+mozart+handel+judas+maccabaeus+not+mozart&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

//

Well, we can't be too harsh, can we ? The Mozart industry loves such stuff !! It's not 'Mozart's' arrangement at all, is it ? Nor was the 'Messiah' arrangement. It was also by the same Starzer. But the name of Mozart is definitely on the title page of Judas Maccabeus at Halifax. Wonder why ? Must have been another case of musical amnesia ! Quick ! Let's auction it fast for more Mozart festivals !!!

:nopity:

[yanni]

You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml





Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

[Musicology]

But I DO get it, Yanni. I DO !

Why not examine the family history of the fraternity recruit Baron Bagge of Paris and his role (and those of others of his clan) in the careers of Haydn and Handel ? You do know of him in Paris, don't you ? Why not check out the relationship of Baron Bagge of Paris with composer/violinist Viotti (that employee of the British Empire) ? Or the faking of 'Haydn's' symphonies in Paris ?

The history of music, so-called, is of course a counterfeit of historical reality. It has been for over 200 published years. Run by fraudsters, fraternity ghouls, and professional liars. And to suppose it is more clean, more honest, than the history of governments, or kings, or bankers, or any other part of human existence is simply naive.

It's not your fault. It's simply that Music deserves better.

Vassili Kalinnikov (1866-1901)
Symphony No. 1
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROtADTN8cuA


Regards



You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml

Richard Bache (1737-1811) (Bagge). Known in New York 1770 as ‘Theophylacte Richard Bache’. Had arrived in USA in 1761 and set up a successful business in marine insurance with a colleague in London. Finished that business in 1767 after many financial irregularities. By one of those amazing coincidences he was able to marry Benjamin Franklin’s own daughter, Sarah (1743-1808) and then became head of the American Post Office. This after a period when he had served on many committees in the American War of Independence, including committees of the Board of War.

Knew as much of music as our next door neighbour’s cat. And closely associated with the usual Romanist/Holy Roman Empire fraternities who (with the ‘investment’ of King George) had effectively bankrolled both sides of the American War of Independence - through the ‘King of France‘ - (none other than King George himself and the usual feudalist elites). Baron Bagges in Norfolk (England) and elsewhere date their ancestry back to 1066, as previously said. You may also wish to check out the history of the Bagge family in Sweden and in Holland. One of whom (in the 16th century) was an admiral in Sweden.

Bache in 1770 knew zero of Handel or Bach’s music.

In fact the first published score of Messiah had appeared 3 years earlier, in 1767, (London - Randall and Abell) and a copy came to New York around 1770 with Bache, (this music having undergone major changes before it was first published).

Excerpts of this work were sung in New York in 1770.

As for Richard Bache (who appears to have been born in Yorkshire, England and was related to the Barons Bagge of Norfolk, England) neither he nor they ever showed the slightest interest in Bach’s music. Nor did Baron Bagge of Paris (whose priority was to oversee final production of ‘Haydn’s’ symphonies there prior to them being attributed to Josef Haydn - another story).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqnlc7MRw&feature=related

//

[yanni]

January 1770: Handel's Messiah performed (first at Burns Coffee Hall) New York

September 28, 1772 From the musical instruments [Musicalischen Instrumenten] which belong to the Community, Brother Utley has got an inventory from Brother Heinrich Stoehr. It would be good if we had a separate closet for the instruments in the Brothers’House. If the instruments have to be repaired, the leader of the Community Chest should know about it.
http://www.amis.org/publications/newsletter/2005/34.2-2005.pdf

Thomas Paine 1774 -- Leaves England, arriving in New York, then to Philadelphia in the fall; 1774 – Calls on Richard Bache, Ben Franklin's son-in-law ...
www.cooperativeindividualism.org/paine-presentation.

July 4, 1780 The musicians should be asked to take good care of the instruments, mainly because there is nobody installed to look after them.It was suggested to collect some money that is necessary for the music because right now we could buy strings [Saiten] for a right good price in the Store. Since Brother Bagge, however, promised to keep as many strings as are necessary for us, we thought that it may be as well for us to defer the collection for awhile..

August 9, 1780: Upon Brother Peter’s request Brother Bagge mentioned that the violin strings [Violin Saiten] which he has right now are too strong for the hot weather, and that if possible he is going to get some that are finer from the Store. We all agreed that he should get as much from the Store as he needs for the present time very urgently, until we have talked about the contribution for the music [account]with the Community Council.
http://www.amis.org/publications/newsletter/2005/34.2-2005.pdf

Franklin -Bache: Immediately on arriving in Paris, Franklin took up his ... 'A. H. Smyth, "The Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin" (New York, 1907), .... celebrated and singular baron de Bagge, a violinomaniac whose ..... 1781. Apparently it was in the month of April, 1781, that Frank- ...
mq.oxfordjournals.org/content/IX/2/245.full.pdf

July 4, 1788: First came twelve axe-men dressed in white frocks, with black girdles, Then there were, at intervals, companies of the City Troop, horsemen who bore banners with the dates of the original Independence Day, of the coming of the French allies, of the definitive treaty of peace with Great Britain, and of the completion of the Constitution. Richard Bache, on horseback, attended by a herald, proclaimed the new era.

For Ben Franklin’s fraternity(Nine Sisters) bro “baron Bagge” see http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/hes_0752-5702_2003_num_22_2_2316?_Prescripts_Search_tabs1=s tandard& p205 (and forget about the Oxford Journal and their censors)

For the rest of (this part only of) the Bagge-Bache-Bach story see...

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51451&page=9

....to be now corrected: The Salem, New York german speaking brother Bagge, violin chord expert, storekeeper-merchant, Ben Franklin's son in law, is not to be identified anymore as an alias of general Chastellux or Franklin's Paris Baron Bagge (aka Haydn,aka one of the brothers Cocceji-Kochs, Carl Ludwig or Johann Friedrich). Their portraits clearly show two different persons and so do their known life details.

Readers wishing to further expand their Bach-Koch knowledge are advised to research the history of Ronneburg as related to Philadelphia, Calvin, JSBach and "a" Johann Wilhelm Koch, cantor there.

For further expansion on the same subject see "Two works by Poe decoded.Announcement"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get down from that tree Robert, else you risk another accident!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I have the strange belief that nothing at all is accidental.

Every good thing has its counterfeits. Which, when compared, only make both obvious. But what is real speaks for itself. It asserts itself. With authority. It always has. It always will. I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqnlc7MRw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mn1ibFdXDU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS1KoQyMNNs&feature=related

///

[yanni]

Listening to JSBach(?), Robert, we are all thanking the Lord, who has protected you from the helicopter accident and, more recently, Starzer's Messiah, Handel/Bach's first "over coffee" performances in Dublin/London, the tree climbing elephant, the american Bache scoundrels and their relatives promoting Handel/Bache later on, all leaving you speechless unfortunately.

Fret not, you are not alone!

This last symptom is shared by many of your british colleagues eversince the publication of "The English Bach awakening: knowledge of J.S. Bach and his music in England" by Michael Kassler" (english version publ 2004) that has clearly affected the industry's servants, many silently asking for Lord's mercy together with you!

"Reach out and you'll all be reached" I say!

Until then, however, let me point out how interesting note 24 of page 6 of this publication I found to be:

It concerns a "JH" who, coming from Vienna, allegedly visited JSBach in Leipzig 1749 and was given some parts of the Goldberg Variations-or so he claimed. The same JH supplied John Hawkins with particulars of JSBach's biography for his History of Music(1776) and, following Hawkin's death in 1789, gave(?) his Variations copies to a Mr Glen(?) who then sold them to a William Reeves who had them for sale in 1893.

I leave it up to you, Robert, to tell the music loving world who, to the best of your recently expanded knowledge, this "Austrian" JH who "introduced" (attempted but failed really) JSBach to british music scholars, sometime between 1750-1776, could have been!

Kassler,you see, was kind enough not to mention the most likely candidate but rejected all others!

Ta-ta.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag, occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - requiring the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity across much of Europe, Britain and beyond. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions associated with W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject in the name of musicology ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations of the faithful will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_services/Mozart_Operas_in_Facsimile.html

[yanni]

JH, "unknown" for 260 years now and no freaking C.R.A.P*musicologist has dared look in his direction!

BUT

Don't leave the whitewash business on my behalf just yet,Robert, an amateur can never take the place of a professional.

Should your performance in this here forum result to the unthinkable I'll gladly give you a reference letter to your next employers and I'll generously never list all other "accidents" you suffered during our encounter.

I hear Berlin has an awfull lot of washing up to do too.

Ta-Ta!

*Coordinated Research Association's Production


Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - including the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions related to the mythical achievements of W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_services/Mozart_Operas_in_Facsimile.html

[Musicology]

You might also consider the red herring business.

Can you tell us when the first public concert of music by J.S. Bach was in Vienna ?

a. During his lifetime ?

b. The century after his lifetime ?


Don't bother answering. The answer to the puzzle of Bach's variations is............ Yanni ! It's inventor.

Here is some music -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6PhUIKS1wk&feature=related

:rolleyes5:

[yanni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs24NJgfI&feature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

What a rewardingly broad recognition to a life-long resident of Austria!

[Musicology]

That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit produced for public consumption by the music industry. Resisted by honest people. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded. Real musicology was too big a threat. Forkel and others. So 'they' produced a cardboard version in its place around 200 years ago, when the first 'histories of music' were published. Real musicology allows/encourages common sense. In fact, common sense is an essential part of it.

You should ask Luca Bianchini and Anna Trombetta to describe what happened when they were invited to lecture on the origins of the Vienna composers in Germany. They travelled all the way from Italy and spoke only for 15 minutes before they were asked to stop. After they had been invited to travel there to give students a lecture on the subject. Check it out ! There are numerous other examples.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs24NJgfI&feature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

[yanni]

What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!


That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit of the music industry. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded.

[Musicology]

You will have to ask Trombetta. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ? Did the idea ever occur to you of asking people who have actually studied these things in detail ? I only suggest it as a possible improvement to your posts.

As for musicology being well respected, it is respected by me and others only if it allows criticism. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ?

Shall I provide you with email addresses so you can write it ? Shall I write the letter for you and send it too ?

I say once again Yanni the history of western music most students are taught is sheer nonsense. How did that happen ? You might care to examine it yourself.



What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!

[yanni]

Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I have worked with some difficult lines of research over many years. But I have never encountered such confusion of thought, and such vagueness as I have repeatedly read from you in your posts. What you say obscures and diminishes what you have already said. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

I will tell you clearly - much of what you write reads like nonsense. And the good things you write (which show how clearly fraternities were involved with manufacturing the careers of musicians) are often ruined by it. You do not write as if you know what you are actually saying.

We do not live in mediaeval times. We are free to give our views without any need for vagueness and innuendo.

That is my view and I hope you appreciate the truth of it. Because you are wasting your time and talents and the time of others if you do not structure your posts. They are very tiring and often lead nowhere.

You should study fugue. That will help. And I say this sincerely. But you first need a theme. And what you say must always be relative to what you have said and what you will say - all within the theme of what you are saying. That is something you can do. If you are prepared to try. It doesn't matter how complicated a thing is. It must always be simple. THAT is talent. And if you think you have succeeded in that, do better.

J.S. Bach
Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major
Third Movement
Allegro
BWV 525/3

http://www.youtube.com/user/smalin#p/c/81D26D4A47388279/26/1y7aw_ExNic


Regards




Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)

[MarkBastable]

. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?


As you're alone in reading it - yeah, probably.

I think this qualifies for some sort of prize as the longest thread with the fewest participants. I mean, I look in just to pick up a flavour of the discourse, but I'm the only one who does, I think. Still - you both seem to be having fun, and I'm completely entranced, as one watching the mating rituals of the gooney bird - so at least three of us are happy.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

As you're alone in reading it - yeah, probably.

...but I'm the only one who does, I think. Still - you both seem to be having fun, and I'm completely entranced, as one watching the mating rituals of the gooney bird -

You are not alone. Many will think I've lost my mind and for the most part I have, but I've taken a cotton to ole Yanni and Musicology (aka Count Robert), which actually started back in the manufactured Mozart days.

I enjoy the "rituals" as well, though I only observe from the shoreline, hidden among the reeds.

Gilliatt

[yanni]

Spaghetti? "Train of thought" is a more elegant term to use but does not really describe the process of memory-recall/info collection/thought-generation which is certainly not linear. Yes, spaghetti is a better term to use for this extensive as well as intensive, web like, selfcenterd and very complicated, thus impossible to put in words, process .

So nobody really writes down his spaghetti like "thoughts" and we all use "words" (selecting the proper words each and every time) to let conclusions be known when a specific thought process is over, if it ever is, and they have been drawn. If not, a mark at the end of the sentence is placed, indicating "question" and inviting others, when not rhetorical, to take part, hopefully positively, in good faith, in a dialogue when needed.

So kindly explain your conclusions, Robert and be precise if you please: Tell me the specific part of my writings of, say, my previous four or five posts, which was not clear enough for you to understand.

Allow me to suggest you beginn with what I consider, for reasons arleady outlined, to be an important and highly relevant, absolutely clear and outright, realisation/statement/product-of-my-concluded-thought process :

JH, "unknown" for 260 years now and no freaking C.R.A.P*musicologist has dared look in his direction!

...but then, on "second thoughts", you'll have to address post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 which you (and Mme Trombetta, also cordialy invited) never did really!

So allow me to expect, judging from your below quoted last relative evasive, irrelevant and nonsensical reaction, that you shall try to avoid anwering once more, derailing the dialogue and breaking its rules as always.

Is that reasonable and clear enough for you?

As for fugues and talents:

Your use of fugue (in the greek sense, ie escape, getaway, bypass the issue) has been noticed and often commented upon. Instead of your usual head over heels, up and down and around your pile, try Handel/Bach's ie Arc.Corelli's fugues.

I don't own any single attic talent, nor recognise, accept or wish to exhibit any other.

Much obliged in advance for your better focused reply!

PS The "train of thought" expression is really meant to describe the successfull arrival to their final destination of many "partial", interlinked and well focused, conclusions, correctly reaching inbetween stations each and every time. Much like -and even better than-the completion of a puzzle! A train has mass, develops momentum, qualities much needed to get thru the pile of musicological (and not only) rubbish of your decaying "spaghetti".


Yanni,

I have worked with some difficult lines of research over many years. But I have never encountered such confusion of thought, and such vagueness as I have repeatedly read from you in your posts. What you say obscures and diminishes what you have already said. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

I will tell you clearly - much of what you write reads like nonsense. And the good things you write (which show how clearly fraternities were involved with manufacturing the careers of musicians) are often ruined by it. You do not write as if you know what you are actually saying.

We do not live in mediaeval times. We are free to give our views without any need for vagueness and innuendo.

That is my view and I hope you appreciate the truth of it. Because you are wasting your time and talents and the time of others if you do not structure your posts. They are very tiring and often lead nowhere.

You should study fugue. That will help. And I say this sincerely. But you first need a theme. And what you say must always be relative to what you have said and what you will say - all within the theme of what you are saying. That is something you can do. If you are prepared to try. It doesn't matter how complicated a thing is. It must always be simple. THAT is talent. And if you think you have succeeded in that, do better.

J.S. Bach
Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major
Third Movement
Allegro
BWV 525/3

http://www.youtube.com/user/smalin#p/c/81D26D4A47388279/26/1y7aw_ExNic


Regards

[Musicology]

There is no doubt about it. I'm an analogue man in a digital world.

[yanni]

My compliments for your efforts, Robert. No hard feelings whatsoever btw: One's myths-to-protect are sometimes another's past, occasionaly including elephants-to-tame!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5AYYoOtqM

(Out of all "jump ship" songs I cared listen to, the funniest and least revolting)


There is no doubt about it. I'm an analogue man in a digital world.

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni. You have given new meaning to the term 'eloquent silence'.

Here is something unusual. Discussion without context. With Yanni proving nobody understands what he is saying, or trying to say.

I believe you should take up law (specialising in legalise) and, if not, you should at least stand for high political office. Ezra Pound would have been jealous of your outrageous obscurantism !!


:):smile5:
Regards

Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1687-1750)
Harpsichord Transcriptions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4I2kZM_JWY

[yanni]

You are always wellcome to reasonably answer any of my posts (192 and previous).

Otherwise enjoy your swim!

[Musicology]

Yanni, unlike others, I have been answering your posts for months. You are so wrapped up in your obscurantism you should read your own posts. Including 192.

I keep my feet on dry land. Enjoy your own swim and please, please, please, stop the obscurantism ! Thank You.



You are always wellcome to reasonably answer any of my posts (192 and previous).

Otherwise enjoy your swim!

[yanni]

Joseph Haydn has been identified by me some months ago, Robert, and is not eversince my problem. Nevertheless, Mr Kassler's JH elegantly reconfirms my findings, also passing the ball to you and your british coleagues, eversince 1997 or so.

JH, your problem all along, now looks like the cherry to your pi(l)e. Perhaps you may select to reach him thru his undoubtably huge records at your foreign ministry's archive. Same for Mr Kassler and their archives btw.

Otherwise, I am happy you reached dry land and wish you luck with your Mozart. Advise me, when ready to serve, and I'll send you a package of Niessen mustard for dressing.

Unless you have something further to add, I declare this thread closed.

My regards to you and your italian associates.

Ta-ta!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQCZLYgm05g

[Musicology]

Joseph Haydn has long been identified by you ? And what use is that if you do not tell us, plainly, in a single post, your considered view ?

As for the involvement of the British Empire, Rome and Venice in the careers of men such as Handel, Haydn, Mozart and even Beethoven, I have repeatedly refered to the role of ambassadors and members of the British Empire during the time I have been a member of this forum. In fact I have refered to this for years. As recently as a few weeks ago. Would you like some quotes from what I've written here ?

Nissen we have spoken of before.

Why not summarise your findings on Josef Haydn and on Nissen and post them here for the benefit of everyone ? I can do the same if you wish. So you are clearly on record and will get any credit that is due for your research.

That is what I mean by avoiding obscurantism.

I am specialising in Mozart but will not ignore the context within which all of the above composers lived. They are all highly relevant. As for the work of other researchers these have value too.

It would be unfortunate if you close shop on this thread just as we are asking for plain answers.

Regards

CPE Bach (1714-88)
Concerto Wq172/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OdOabG8lMM&feature=related




Joseph Haydn has long been identified by me, Robert and is not eversince my problem. Nevertheless, Mr Kassler's JH elegantly reconfirms my findings, passing thus the ball to you and your british coleagues eversince what, 1997?

JH seems to have been your problem all along. He now looks like the cherry to your pi(l)e and perhaps you may select to reach him thru his undoubtably huge records at your foreign ministry's archive. Same for Mr Kassler and their archives btw.

Otherwise, I am happy you reached dry land and wish you luck with your Mozart. Advise me, when ready to serve, and I'll send you a package of Niessen mustard for dressing.

Unless you have something further to add, I declare this thread closed.

My regards to you and your italian associates.

Ta-ta!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQCZLYgm05g

[yanni]

I did just that, summarize, not only for Haydn and Nissen but many others as well.

My own genealogy purposes -and curiosity (a strong motor)- satisfied, I neither believe it's possible, nor have the wish or stamina, to change existing form and put everything in a nutshell.

No, but thanks for asking.



You really should summarise your findings on Haydn and on Nissen and post them here for the benefit of everyone. So you are clearly on record and will get any credit that is due for your research.

[Musicology]

OK Yanni,

What we see in all these things is really a hybrid religion that is no religion. An agenda which has infliltrated, managed and controlled much of western art and culture virtually since the early 16th century (with the assistance of corrupt men who serve it at the price of their souls) but whose origins date back far earlier, to pre-Christian times. Fake Jews and (later) fake Christians. The managers of fake history in the corporatised music industry.

Regards

[yanni]

If you so say, Robert!

[Musicology]

Yes, I say so, and so do a growing number of other, honest researchers. It's the usual Khazar/Vatican/occultist hybrid - and the documentary evidence to support it is overwhelming. It is the most prominent, most verifiable feature of music history. And in its place to hide us from this fact are standard fairy stories, presided over by the pseudo-musicological stooges of the music industry.

There ! That's easy to understand, isn't it ?


If you so say, Robert!

[yanni]

Don't want my Niessen mustard and prefer Khazar dressing for Your sausages? Fine with me but may I humbly suggest to His White English Holiness,He better go promote His Sacred Products elsewhere?
I am a vegetarian, as He may notice, and this site is for colour blind sinners exclusively.

Do Bless us on Your way out!

Amen!

September 24, 2010: Brother Robert on Rome’s War Against Protestant Culture
EJP hosts White English Brother-in-Christ Robert Newman as he reveals Rome’s war on White Protestant Culture in the area of classical music. Protestant Lutheran Bach was the target for the Order in attempting to excel his compositions. While George Whitfield was preaching the gospel in the American Colonies, Bach was moving all of Europe with his God-glorifying, musical masterpieces!

(In excelsis Bachum-Handelum, pax vobiscum, allelujah! Frater Kochum, cantor graecorum-negrorum.)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The 'war' of which you speak is one on humanity, as a whole. The kind that humanity now realise is ongoing. Part of which is directed to ruthlessly destroy Christian and even Jewish and Muslim culture. By any means. Including through the financial, banking, military, political and even the academic world. Coming from frauds and liars of the pseudo-Christian and pseudo-Jewish elites and their fraternal sub-contractors, over centuries. In union with each other as we see in the banking, political, academic and every other sectors. Not content with having scammed entire nations and their governments out of their national sovereignty they want full control of history and education. As they had for centuries. Through their tin-pot fraternities and fraudulent corporations. Members of which have infiltrated and counterfeited virtually every sector of the religious, academic, business and cultural worlds. Whose targets include the Catholic and protestant churches themselves plus Islam and even Jewish communities. Counterfeits are the order of the day in their thinking. But misinformation is a plain fact accepted today by virtually every honest person. The occultist scum bags of evil. Hence the need to counter their dogmatic obscurantism with plain, indisputable but little known facts of history. The kind you so obviously love to learn ! Even in matters of music history.

Any hiearchical structure is vulnerable to corruption by globalist liars. In fact, globalism is enforced through hiearchical structures and their products. They come to us in the name of 'democracy' and even of 'culture'. The history of music (so-called) is a prime example. Fraudsters, fraternity freaks, agents of misinformation and the usual vested, feudal, bloodline interests. Increasingly exposed in our own time. At last.

I must be doing something right since I have and have had for a long time many good Jewish, Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Protestant friends. Of various nationalities and ethnic backgrounds. Each to their own.

Don't you just love the rising of the sun and real accountability ?

But it was sure to happen. The gooks don't like being exposed.

Do yourself the great favour of serving mankind. Then we are on the same side.

Regards


Don't want my Niessen mustard and prefer Khazar dressing for Your sausages? Fine with me but may I humbly suggest to His White English Holiness,He better go promote His Sacred Products elsewhere?
I am a vegetarian, as He may notice, and this site is for colour blind sinners exclusively.

Do Bless us on Your way out!

Amen!

September 24, 2010: Brother Robert on Rome’s War Against Protestant Culture
EJP hosts White English Brother-in-Christ Robert Newman as he reveals Rome’s war on White Protestant Culture in the area of classical music. Protestant Lutheran Bach was the target for the Order in attempting to excel his compositions. While George Whitfield was preaching the gospel in the American Colonies, Bach was moving all of Europe with his God-glorifying, musical masterpieces!

(In excelsis Bachum-Handelum, allelujah! Frater Kochum grecorum-negrorum, cantor.)

[yanni]

I didn't "speak of war", YOU did and still do.

http://www.ejpress.org/about/

I am not buying!

[Musicology]

But the 'war on error' justifies virtually all aspects of our lives these days. Don't you know that ?

Our corporate governments and the mass media tell us so.

Our enemies are all those who question their official output. (LOL).

What we really need, they say, are a totally dumbed down population. Just queue up for more austerity measures, more banker bailouts, more political correctness, more fake vitamins, more vaccinations, more planning for national emergencies, more false flag operations, more GM crops, more 'cultural control', more invasions and occupations and lots more corruption in our corporatised governments and court systems. Everyone is to blame except them.

In my small field (musical history) I've seen my fair share of nonsense. And I reject it. That's all. The myth makers have been at war with reality for a very long time.

You don't 'buy it' ? That's good. It's really not for sale. It's as free as rainwater. But there are plans to sell that soon too !!


I didn't "speak of war", YOU did and still do.

http://www.ejpress.org/about/

I am not buying!

[yanni]

Discussions on curent political issues are against the rules of this forum.

[Musicology]

I am not discussing them. I am only listing them. They do not require discussion. Are they not acts of war against mankind ?


Discussions on curent political issues are against the rules of this forum.

[yanni]

Googling for "Musicology Handel Bach" this thread lists #1 in 55000.

"Now you know!" as Mell Gibson (conspiracy theorist-cabdriver) would say! Or was it Bruce Willis?

[Musicology]

Every war is a conspiracy, every act of wholesale deception and, each day, thousands of crimes are prosecuted in courts worldwide which are proved beyond doubt to be acts of criminal conspiracy.

The official report of 9/11 is a document which refers (no less than 3 times in its published text) to a criminal ''conspiracy''.

So it's perfectly OK to believe in criminal conspiracies - as long as they are 'official' conspiracy theories.

Let's all believe exactly the same thing. And no more conspiracy theories except of course 'official', 'sanitised' versions. :hand:

We interrupt this conversation to have a short statement from our corporate sponsors (LOL) !!!

'Good evening ! '''Everything you've heard is true''' !! So says the trailer of the film, 'Amadeus'. And our cornflakes are much better than anyone else's'

and -

''Razor blades remain in short supply but the war with Eurasia is reaching a decisive phase. Pig iron production has also increased by 2% in the last month'.

(Approved for broadcast by the Ministry of Truth who, next Tuesday, will be staging a concert of piano concertos by the Salzburg genius W.A. Mozart for our cultural education. Guaranteed to be free from genetically modified contents, artificial colourings and additives, and...... ). :crash:

///

[yanni]

Some Caccini-Caussin-Cosyn music in honour and memory of sweet Queen Charlotte (and her top page Frederic Nicolay) who had the kindness to buy it* in an auction, 1779, and preserve it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69sFhS6DRiY

(The Cosyn Virginals Book; circa 1620. The British Library, R.M.23.l.4., ff. 102v-103r. Copyright © The British Library Board)

*See: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/music/royalmusiclibrary/royalmusicnicolay/royalmusicnicolay.html

[Musicology]

This is fun music. Whether it belongs to a much larger piece with more variations I do not know. But it is very nice without once challenging us or taxing our ears.

Thanks for this Yanni


Some Caccini-Caussin-Cosyn music in honour and memory of sweet Queen Charlotte (and her top page Frederic Nicolay) who had the kindness to buy it* in an auction, 1779, and preserve it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69sFhS6DRiY

(The Cosyn Virginals Book; circa 1620. The British Library, R.M.23.l.4., ff. 102v-103r. Copyright © The British Library Board)

*See: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/music/royalmusiclibrary/royalmusicnicolay/royalmusicnicolay.html

A musical offering for Yanni. Best wishes -
Robert Newman

Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)
Sonata K9
Mark Swartzentruber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yavud8xtdc&feature=related

and -

Antonio Vivaldi (1678-1741)
Concerto RV 522
Op. 3 No. 8 "L'estro Armonico"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-RTI-H2oI

//

[yanni]

Alternatively: Anglosaxon Cloak and Dagger stories.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of particular music interest for this thread are Frederic Nicolay's duties as "music administrator-librarian" to the royal couple, his hosting of both Mozart and Haydn, as well as his undertaking to "prepare Handel's manuscripts for binding, probably in the 1780s".

Frederic Nicolay was furthermore blood related to a "Carl Ludwig von Nicolay", of the german branch of the family, who died 1820 in Vyborg, Carelia, today Finnland. CLvN has been already identified in previous threads as comte de Saint Germain's last alias. His, practically empty, biography includes no family details.

Fred.Nicolay's three sons however ...

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany[14] Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury[15]. Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolay_(family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Heinrich_von_Nicolai

[Musicology]

Yes, there is no doubt that Frederic Nicolay (1728-1809) had a remarkable career (being host to both Mozart and Haydn etc in London and involved with Handel manuscripts) and was an important contact for both men in England. His name appears (I believe) in a list made by Leopold Mozart in Salzburg before the Mozart's even arrived in London. There can be no doubt he was a man of much importance in the musical/social regime of his time.

Nicolay (at least officially) arrived from Saxe-Gotha (therefore with permission of Queen Charlotte) and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III). He rose to a related position that included head page and also as librarian and was culturally very influential within the British royal court.

As I see it there are two largely unexplored areas in the music history of that time - the role of Venice and the role of the British Empire. Both were massive in the careers of virtually all the 'great' composers.

It is entirely possible Nicolay may have been an alias. But around this time (c.1751) that would not have been unusual. He lived in to the 19th century. I have some notes on him I will dig out. The fact that one of his sons went on to become a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH) strongly suggests his link with Germany.

The fact that

Thomas Arne (1710-1778)
Concerto No. 3
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGP7WUbMr8



Alternatively: Anglosaxon Cloak and Dagger stories.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of particular music interest for this thread are Frederic Nicolay's duties as "music administrator-librarian" to the royal couple, his hosting of both Mozart and Haydn, as well as his undertaking to "prepare Handel's manuscripts for binding, probably in the 1780s".

Frederic Nicolay was furthermore blood related to a "Carl Ludwig von Nicolay", of the german branch of the family, who died 1820 in Vyborg, Carelia, today Finnland. CLvN has been already identified in previous threads as comte de Saint Germain's last alias. His, practically empty, biography includes no family details.

Fred.Nicolay's three sons however ...

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany[14] Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury[15]. Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolay_(family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Heinrich_von_Nicolai

[yanni]

Nicolai, Christoph Friedrich (1733-1811), code name: Lucian. Bookseller and publisher, Berlin; founder, along with Lessing and Mendelssohn, of the Bibliothek der schonen Wissenschaften (Library of Fine Philosophy) and the periodical, Briefe, die neueste Literatur betreffend; editor of the journal Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek. His circle: Lessing, Mendelssohn, Herder, Goethe, Schiller, Kant and Fichte; and, perhaps most notably for the present study, Adam Weishaupt himself

Nicolai was the focal point of the German/Prussian Aufklädrung (Enlightenment); and, along with his partners Lessing and Mendelssohn, he was largely responsible for it. Nicolai was undoubtedly Weishaupt's main source for procuring books and journals, and from that acquaintance was likely initiated into the Order himself. Subsequently, the Illuminati would publish many pamphlets, articles and revolutionary tracts through this most important channel.

To stress the importance of Nicolai to the dissemination of ideas during the German Enlightenment it is reported that his journal Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek, for instance, reviewed a staggering 80,000 books in forty years. It was "intended to review (and thereby to expose to as large a public as possible) the entire prose production of the time …" ( The Eighteenth Century German "Trivialroman" As Constructed By Literary History And Criticism)
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Illuminati.htm

Yanni's timeline extract:

17 july 1761, Sterlitz: "A" Colonel Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay to attend his future Queen.)

Giessmannsdorf, 23. Juli 1761: Letter An den Hauptmann und Flügeladjutanten Freiherrn von Cocceji •Schreiber:Friedrich (Preußen, König, II.) •Empfänger:Cocceji, Johann Friedrich

On 8 September 1761, the King married in the Chapel Royal, St James's Palace, Duchess Sophia Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, whom he met on their wedding day

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay**, 1737-1820. (Friedrich Dominicus Ring, éditeur de Diderot, p116.) see also L.H. Nicolay (1737-1820) and his contemporaries, by Edmund Heier

*FMGrimm is nowhere to be found 1761-1762, and his next record is in a letter by Frederick King of Prussia to his cousin Duchess of Saxen-Gotha: Potsdam, 22 juillet 1763, Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres

**notable members of the German branch of the House of Nicolay, including Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai - Private tutor of Emperor Paul I of Russia and his son Baron Paul Von Nicolay - Russia's State Council and the Tsarist Ambassador to London, Copenhagen and Stockholm. The family owned and developed the manor and park of Mon Repos (Vyborg) from 1788-1943.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS RICERCAR, Your Grace, ricercar,if You don't want to make a Fool or Liar of Yourself : http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=615557 post 32.

[Musicology]

What a pity Yanni is back to his obscurantism again.

Can you summarise your last post for us Yanni ? It reads like the headlines of a pile of newspapers. What is the story ??

We don't want the dots but the spaces in between. Like this -

Antonio Vivaldi/Johann Sebastian Bach
Concerto
BWV 1065/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfu4cxx0KcQ&feature=related

Music had nowhere to go. Let's invent the music industry. LOL !!

[yanni]

Your, breathtaking in their wisdom, "hang it all on Rome" and "Mozart was manufactured" announcements, are monumental evidence of Your unique powers of summarising, Your Grace, as such, please allow me to keep the hope alive that it is Your Goodness who will put it in a nutshell for Your humble servant and Your rezpected congregation.

Preferably after finding Your notes on the Nicolais to compare to mine, that is.

Are we all supposed to walk the road to Heavenly Zion without Your enlightened guidance, cracking each his own nuts?


Allelujah!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

It is not good to 'quote' others when they have not said the words you are 'quoting'. It doesn't help your reputation.

I have not said 'hang it all on Rome'. In fact, I have said the opposite. Let me repeat myself (once again) so you cannot possibly miss it.

The history of music with which most of us are familiar is an elaborate fiction. A version of events we subscribe to with minimal, if any, cross-examination. An elaborate fiction but a fiction all the same. It is, for a start, blatantly hiearchical. It has been patronised by elites, defined by them, and its products are taught as being the academic and cultural measure for everyone else to believe. The fashions of elites, the music of elites and the alleged generosity of these elites and of their 'genius' employees. So, eventually, even composers associated with hieararchical elites are seen as elites themselves. As 'great' composers. See the trend ? We arrive at a sanitised history of music which has elite ('great') composers who (academically and culturally) live (they say) on Mount Olympus. The names of a few composers literally dominate music and musical history and always have. Yes ? Thus, for example, far less than 1% of composers who lived and composed in Mozart's time are known to us, recorded, performed and taught. What sort of 'history' is that ? And, as for the rest, we delegate that to 'experts'. Imagine a mathematics where 99% of all achievements are simply ignored ? Or an astronomy, or an art history ? It's laughable. And publishers, teachers and editors expect you to consume an official version of musical 'history'. Even if their version is shown to be filled with exaggerations and gross falsehoods. Wherever you see hieararchies you will certainly find the same kind of corruption, vested interests, fictions, hidden truths, exaggerations and falsehoods. Does this make sense to you ? I mean, is it any different from what we find in any other sphere of western civilization ?

Mozart was of course manufactured in the same way Handel, Joseph Haydn, Gluck, Mozart, and even Beethoven were manufactured. But to prove it, to show it correct, we might focus on just one of these individuals. Allowing facts, actual evidence IN CONTEXT to speak for itself. Your Cocchis were certainly managers of this myth. Why not tell us what you know of that fact ? It was part of the agenda of these same ruling hierarchical elites. And it took lots of hierarchical people to achieve it.

Certain things are true. But they tend to be suppressed, edited out, ignored. Somebody actually wrote this music. But 'they' don't want you to know about their music and their cultural factory. They want you only to believe in individual 'geniuses' as 'great composers'. Their own. The exceptions to this rule are (and always were) the real history of music.

The music of the time we are discussing (mostly the 18th century) was written at a time when there was an EMPIRE. That meant those who wrote music were SERVANTS - members of its civil service. Or were ecclesiastical employees. There were virtually no individual composers. These came later.

Imagine a book on Mozart, or Gluck, or Haydn which ignores that fact ? Ignores the entire reality of those times ? Imagine a history of music which ignores the sheer dominanance of the aristocracy, their beliefs, the role of the organised churches, the fraternities, the patrons of music and their own role in music and musical performance ? Which gives us in its place a fairy story ? Welcome to the world of Mozart ! It would be as ridiculous as to write a book about World War One or World War 2 without refering to the armies who were fighting there, or the regiments or battles they fought, or the leaders of those armies. Music and its official history is like that. It focuses on the INDIVIDUAL and largely ignores the reality of how they individually lived, who really sponsored them, who promoted them, made them, advertised them, what they (these composers) actually believed, the details of their influences, the fraternal and other networks to which they belonged and on which they relied.

Individualism is a great thing Yanni. But during the last decades of the Holy Roman EMPIRE that corrupt system (which had literally dominated Europe for centuries) was itself massively changing to become a secular EMPIRE. The name of that time is called (romantically) the 'Enlightenment', but it was designed also. It had the same corrupt, lying, vested interests as it directors - as before. The Cocchi clan (whom you are interested in) were certainly involved in 'managing' this movement (musically) as were many others. So were the occultists of Venice. So were the occultists of the British Empire. And so were the occultists of the Holy Roman Empire. So were many Freemasons and all the usual vested interests. So were the fake Jews and the fake Christians. Who would eventually write the 'history of music' as we know it, complete with its iconic 'great' composers. Part of the cultural side of globalism. As for the actual facts, well, these could be and were twisted, perverted, invented, attributed, by a new emerging music industry.

We really have to escape from this idea of 'great' composers. Of 'genius' composers. (Terms we never seem able to define). The fact is what was not part of the mainstream culture of the elites was ignored. And THAT is the real history of music.

You have refered to Gluck and other composers. These are artificially made careers whose origins were (of course) with the same hiearachical elites. It all goes back to academic and cultural CONTROL. Control of what is taught, believed, absorbed, consumed, and what is almost never cross-examined.

As for your 'irreverence' it's no more relevant than my reverence. Is it ? What we are interested in is to examine these issues fairly in the light of the actual, available evidence. So we can make up our minds having heard both sides of the story. Can't get fairer than that, can we ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY3TcklLfug&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WKqlMFqHSQ&feature=related




Your, breathtaking in their wisdom, "hang it all on Rome" and "Mozart was manufactured" announcements, are monumental evidence of Your unique powers of summarising, Your Grace, as such, please allow me to keep the hope alive that it is Your Goodness who will put it in a nutshell for Your humble servant and Your rezpected congregation.

Preferably after finding Your notes on the Nicolais to compare to mine, that is.

Are we all supposed to walk the road to Heavenly Zion without Your enlightened guidance, cracking each his own nuts?


Allelujah!

[yanni]

Yes, ofcourse, Your Grace, that's an exquisitely ornamented nut case.

Care to open it and tell us when Frederick De Nicolay was appointed Queen Charlotte's backstairs page?

[Musicology]

Why should I be interested to know when Frederic de Nicolay was appointed the backstairs page of Queen Charlotte ? Will the answer relate to what I have just written, or is this another example of Yannian obscurantism ? :rolleyes5:



Yes, ofcourse, Your Grace, that's an exquisitely ornamented nut case.

Care to open it and tell us when Frederick De Nicolay was appointed Queen Charlotte's backstairs page?

Royal Music Library archivist records that -

‘’From a childhood in Saxe-Gotha, Nicolay had emigrated to England and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III).

Ten years later (1761) he became Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte, and in due course was elevated to the position of considerable responsibility of Principal Page. He associated with the members of the Queen's private band, and met both Mozart and Haydn. It is clear that Nicolay's duties extended to upkeep of the Queen's Music Library. The ascription 'This Volume belongs to the Queen' is written in his hand in more than fifty of the books in the Royal Music Library, and throughout the Handel autographs there are interleaved sheets on which Nicolay has meticulously noted omissions, mixed-up leaves and other points’’

A will still exists for Frederick Nicolay (1728-1809) 'of Saint James's Palace , Middlesex Dated 27 May 1809' and strangely there is another (again for a man named Frederick Nicolay), ‘of His Majesty's Treasury of Whitehall‘ of Middlesex dated 7th March 1818.

It seems clear young Nicolay came to England with his father and other relatives from Germany. (The surname was not uncommon in England at this time).

Most of his work with Handel manuscripts seems to date from after 1785.

When the family arrived and under what circumstances is not known. It must have occurred before 1750 and there were various families of that name in London by that date.

Regards


///

And here (it seems) is Nicolay's background -

Gaspard De Nicolay was a member of the Court of Frederick III, Duke of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg. He, his wife Joanna Sapphira and their two sons arrived in England from the Duchy of Saxe-Gotha (now Thuringia, Germany) in 1736. Gaspard was Attendant and Page to Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha and the Nicolay family accompanied her to London, where she was to marry Frederick, Prince of Wales. Gaspard became Page of the Presence to Princess Augusta and Prince Frederick from 1736 until 1751 and then Page of the Backstairs from 1751 until 1772. Gaspard and Sapphira's two sons were Frederick De Nicolay (elder) and Christian Frederick De Nicolay (younger).

Frederick was introduced to King George III, with whom he became a very great favourite; so much so that when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay to attend his future Queen. He remained ever after the confidential friend of both their Majesties, as well as of their family, the Princes and Princesses and lived in St. James's Palace. The affection with which the King and Queen held for Frederick was demonstrated in his appointments as a violinist in the Queen's Chamber Band, keeper of the Queens Music Library and the Queen's Principle Page. Frederick married Albinia Lattman and had 13 children; only three of whom lived to maturity. He died at St. James's Palace on the 16th May 1809.

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany. Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury . Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

The younger son of Gaspard De Nicolay, Christian Frederick, was brought up in the medical profession. He was private Physician to the Princess Dowager of Wales Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, mother of King George III on whom (with Sir Clifton Wintringham and Dr Pringle) he was in constant attendance for two years. They alone were in the room with H.R.H. at her decease. He also attended her son Prince Frederick of Great Britain. Christian married Miss Turner and had three sons and two daughters, of whom only two survived: Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay; God Daughter to King George IV and also sponsored by the then Queen Consort of Prussia Louise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Thomas Frederick Nicolay who became a Lieutenant-Colonel, Staff Surgeon to His Majesty's Forces and Deputy Inspector of Hospitals.

Only Thomas Frederick fathered children: Christian William, Frederick Lewis and Thomas Frederick, all of whom were in the service of the East India Company. Lt-Colonel Sir Frederick Lewis was killed at Ootacamund, India in 1855 whilst commanding the Neilgherries of the 29th Mechanised Native Infantry and Captain Thomas Frederick of the 1st Madras European Fusiliers was killed in January 1853 at the storming of the Pegu stockade during the Second Anglo-Burmese War .Lieutenant Christian William was a member of the 28th Madras Native Infantry (refer to: Madras Army) before being pensioned through Lord Clive's Fund. He died in Brighton in 1848.


///

[yanni]

Yes of course, Your Grace, that's what the Royal Music records and the Nicolays themselves claim but as the Royal wedding took place September 1761 and there has been a mixup between "a" colonel Graeme and a Frederic de Nicolay, both entrusted to escort the bride to the groom earlier on in the year, I was hoping that a Deus ex machina would appear to advise You of the exact date of backstairs appointment of master Frederick, saving You from another of those misfortunes that seem to haunt You lately.

Must be those evil obscurantist Khazar powers disguised as Popes of Rome and Cardinals of Venice, all hiding in the detail.

Good night!

A very important period really, 1761-1762,for our kleine nacht musik:

A JCBach arrives in London, you see, to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

No, you'll have to do better than that, brother Robert, cantor of the all white fraternity, since you are the one who wave the JSBach banner allover: Read Kassler's book on JSBach's introduction to the british public, find the requested date, put it in your timeline- if you have any-and come again!

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is the Berlin publisher Nicolai.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You asked about Nicolay so I have now provided 3 posts on Nicolay including detailed information on his family, his arrival in England from Germany, and the date when he was appointed to the post (including others). I might further add that Queen Charlotte married George (3rd) on 8th September 1761. How is that for obscurantism Yanni ?

Antonio Vivaldi
RV 569
Allegro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PydMBFt9A&feature=related

You are trying to find a needle in a haystack but it seems you don't know what it looks like.

JC Bach (that glorious convert to the church of Rome and therefore the receiver of a bag containing 30 pieces of silver from the British elites) was only one of a vast production line established from around the time of G.F. Handel, joined later by the careers of men such as Andrea Luchesi, this managed during Mozart's own time by musical charlatans as Abbe G Vogler, overseen by numerous performing seals such as the Cocchis etc. (dating back to the Council of Trent), even managed by Padre Martini of Bologna and by so many others. Mozart's career was stage managed even before the time of his birth. (It had already become standard procedure, you understand ?). You might also examine the careers of numerous others such as one Bohuslav Cernohorsy (friend and musical mentor of a certain 'great' operatic composer, Herr Gluck - that genius so conveniently born on the estate of Prince Lobkowitz in Bohemia), the wayward career of a certain Giuseppe Tartini (supplier of a violin treatise manipulated and published in the name of a certain 4th violinist and friend of Venice friendly and of papally approved Fugger bankers and merchants in Augsburg, (formerly collectors of indulgences during Martin Luther's time), appearing in print by one Leopold Mozart, in 1756 and published courtesy of the Duc D'Orleans in Paris), also the careers of Baldasarre Galuppi, Giordano Riccati, Hasse (that German operatic giant who lived for years in Venice and correspondent of that strange man, Abbe G. Ortes) and so many others of the Venetian/Jesuit connection which was basically transplanted to London and Paris. London became the 'New Venice'. This achieved with the assistance of numerous cardinals and potentates of Rome, the usual Venetian occultists (with Jesuit intermediaries) and the creative manufacturing of musical history as we know it. (No expense has been spared in the writing of musical 'history' !). With the usual hypocrisy supplied by Romanist elites of the British Empire. As for Khazar input, and the Akkadian Society (oops, Arcadian Society) we must overlook such things AND any Romanist manipulation of our subject. Since both were in union with each other at this time. The subject must be airbrushed out of official versions. Let us focus on the 'genius' of one iconic W.A. Mozart and ignore, completely, contexts or anything of his own century or musical time. 3,000 composers of the 18th century posthumously agree that Mozart was a 'great' composer and a 'genius' - terms we never define. Let us studiously avoid all contexts because these too are irrelevant. Since we have learned to be content to worship our icons on the manufactured musical Easter Island. Overseen by the usual soft spoken priests of pseudo-musicology.

JS Bach
Concerto
BWV 1052

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz4gYHZ1-UA&feature=related



A very important period really, 1761-1762,for our kleine nacht musik:

A JCBach arrives in London, you see, to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay**, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

No, you'll have to do better than that, brother Robert, cantor of the all white fraternity, since you are the one who wave the JSBach banner allover: Read Kassler's book on JSBach's introduction to the british public, find the requested date, put it in your timeline- if you have any-and come again!

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is his Berlin publisher cousin.

[yanni]

You mean you really don't have a timeline and/or Mr Kassler's book on JSBach and don't care to explain the Nicolay-Graeme, Windsor-music-archive royal blunder?

Holy White Moses, what an insult to musicology you are, Sir!

PS Wonderfull palaces the Nicolays owned in France. What a great and very old french family(13th century and earlier) they were! Enobled May 19, 1815, by King Louis XVIII, they aquired both their palaces Chateau de Lude and Château de Courances only around 1760-1770's and kept them both long after their enoblement. Their german cousins (Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai, Private tutor of Emperor Paul I of Russia, and his son Baron Paul Von Nicolay - Russia's State Council and the Tsarist Ambassador to London, Copenhagen and Stockholm) did not do so well in real estate, apparently. They only managed to aquire their Mon Repos (Vyborg) dacha round about 1788 to keep it until 1943. If not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere they were contemplating to also aquire a small property in Yalta at the time but changed their mind for some reason or other.

[Musicology]

I hope my posts on the Nicolays (provided in answer to your repeated request for information on the same) have been of some help. Which was my objective. Further supported by my last post (above). They have been, haven't they ???

In the meantime, some music from one of those marvellous musical coincidences - from Herr Mozart's next door neighbour in Vienna for some years, a certain J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813) -

Symphony in D Major
1st Movement
c.1779/80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVYZja5A-j4&feature=related

Quick ! Where are the musical censors when you need them ?? LOL !!!



You mean you really don't have a timeline and/or Mr Kassler's book on JSBach and don't care to explain the Nicolay-Graeme, Windsor-music-archive royal blunder?

Holy White Moses, what an insult to musicology you are, Sir!

PS Wonderfull palaces the Nicolays owned in France. What a great and very old french family(13th century and earlier) they were! Enobled May 19, 1815, by King Louis XVIII, they aquired both their palaces Chateau de Lude and Château de Courances only around 1760-1770's and kept them both long after their enoblement. Their german cousins (Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai, Private tutor of Emperor Paul I of Russia, and his son Baron Paul Von Nicolay - Russia's State Council and the Tsarist Ambassador to London, Copenhagen and Stockholm) did not do so well in real estate, apparently. They only managed to aquire their Mon Repos (Vyborg) dacha round about 1788 to keep it until 1943. If not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere they were contemplating to also aquire a small property in Yalta at the time but changed their mind for some reason or other.

Any similarity between this first movement of a symphony by the Bohemian composer Paul Wranitsky and the overture to a later opera named 'Le Nozze di Figaro' of 1786 (the latter attributed to a certain genius from Salzburg of 2 years later) are of course purely coincidental. It is also a sheer coincidence the same Paul Wranitsky became the legal representative of a certain Constanze nee Weber (later widow of the same Salzburg genius). And numerous similarities between the music of the Wranitsky opera 'Oberon' and the later 'Magic Flute' of the Salzburg genius (both works staged at the same venue within months of each other in the same city of Vienna and only one of them ever recorded despite the huge fame of 'Oberon' at the time) is also a coincidence.

Pavel Vranicky (Wranitsky) (1756-1808)
Symphony in D Major Op. 36
1st Movement
c. 1784

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecn_cSowKa8&feature=related

Any musicology which is offended by music deserves to be !!!

[yanni]

Don't want to face up to the 1761-2 challenge? I understand!

Here is Gluck-Calzabiggi-Durazzo's Don Juan (October 1761) and Orfeo and Euridice, twelve months later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQrwAZa3N9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTx75nCLsdA&feature=related

A descend to hell guide is included!



I hope my posts on the Nicolays (provided in answer to your repeated request for information on the same) have been of some help. Which was my objective. Further supported by my last post (above). They have been, haven't they ???

In the meantime, some music from one of those marvellous musical coincidences - from Herr Mozart's next door neighbour in Vienna for some years, a certain J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813) -

Symphony in D Major
1st Movement
c.1779/80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVYZja5A-j4&feature=related

Quick ! Where are the musical censors when you need them ?? LOL !!!

[Musicology]

J.B. Vanhal
Missa Pastoralis
Kyrie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdlFVfRufVs&feature=related

J.B Vanhal
Missa Pastoralis
Benedictus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSDDe11wBTc&feature=related

And the relevance of this post is precisely what, Yanni ?? A literary 'divertimento a la confusione' ?


Don't want to face up to the 1761-2 challenge? I understand!

Here is Gluck-Calzabiggi-Durazzo's Don Juan (October 1761) and Orfeo and Euridice, twelve months later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQrwAZa3N9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTx75nCLsdA&feature=related

A descend to hell guide is included!

[yanni]

Ofcourse not, Robert, it's a call for you to recite for us your "Mozart was manufactured" , "There were two Nissens", "The one and only Bach was a different man than Handel" and "Bad Khazar-Good White Jew" cantatas.

Will you??


And the relevance of this post is precisely what, Yanni ?? A literary 'divertimento a la confusione' ?

(the date) ...is only to be found online in page 107 of Michael Kassler's "The English Bach awakening: knowledge of J.S. Bach and his music in England":

Frederic de Nicolay was appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte on 20th July 1762!!

Care in the detail is equally important to any art, the one of finding the "errors" of professional history writers and archivist-interpreters included. Such is the case with the following "family site", caring not for the detail but to "name" their relative "sources" of "misunderstanding" nevertheless:

Extract from 'Sketch of the Nicolay Family in England - Part 1' By Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay)****

By the second half of the 18th century, the Royal Music Library had expanded to the extent of requiring somebody to maintain it, a role that was filled in the person of Frederick de Nicolay. From a childhood in Saxe-Gotha, Nicolay had emigrated to England and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III).

Ten years later he became Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte, and in due course was elevated to the position of considerable responsibility of Principal Page. He associated with the members of the Queen's private band, and met both Mozart and Haydn. It is clear that Nicolay's duties extended to upkeep of the Queen's Music Library. The ascription 'This Volume belongs to the Queen' is written in his hand in more than fifty of the books in the Royal Music Library, and throughout the Handel autographs there are interleaved sheets on which Nicolay has meticulously noted omissions, mixed-up leaves and other points.

(source: Royal Music Library - Frederick Nicolay (1728-1809) by Dr Nicolas Bell, The British Library

Frederick was introduced to King George III, with whom he became a very great favourite; so much so that when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick Nicolay over to attend his future Queen. He remained ever after the confidential friend of both their Majesties, as well as of their family. He lived in St. James's Palace, London.

http://lyons.familytreeguide.com/getperson.php?personID=I10125&tree=T1&PHPSESSID=fe6ef9f7fe57605fc1b6cb89585846ab

As above written:

A very important period really, 1761-1762:

A JCBach arrives in London...to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is the Berlin publisher Nicolai.

****Augusta Georgiana Nicolay was pensioned from the House of Commons 1813 (House of Commons papers, Volume 6). Terrible year for all truthseeking ladies!

How important the period was and why the exact date would never have been disclosed but for Mr Kassler will be examined next.

PS Of note is the Berlin Publisher not recognising The Mon Repos Baron as his bood relative in their correspondence. Another negligent editor of history or, most propably, a not well informed on history, later Nicolay genealogist.

[Musicology]

Yanni has filled pages of posts on this thread and when we ask what he is saying he doesn't answer, saying he wishes me to ''recite how the musical career of Mozart was manufactured'' ! Although his last dozen posts do not mention Mozart and the name of this thread is (just in case he forgot) 'The puzzle of the so-called Bach variations' !!!!

You see, Yanni, you have collected things on the surface, connected them with a timeline, have added twenty aliases, and that is the sum total of it.

If you wish to speak about Mozart why has it taken dozens of posts on subjects such as Nicolay at the court of Queen Charlotte ? Does this really relate to the subject of the thread ? How ? You do not tell us. You are a very confusing man. I have replied to your questions on the Nicolay subject. At length.

As for Mozart, examine my post of yesterday and please do us a favour - examine (i.e. please study in detail) what I actually wrote. Post 228 is a good place to start. Nothing is stable without a foundation, a context. It might give you what you lack. Context. I cannot do more unless you have specific questions. Except offer some music -

J.S. Bach
Cantata 151
Aria
Süsser Trost, mein Jesus kömmt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSRiPWXWvPw

As for your typically obscurantist reference to Khazars and 'good white Jews', (which is really born of ignorance) you owe yourself and this thread some basic reading - it may help humanity. And yourself.

http://sites.google.com/a/jewishjesuits.com/www/


Thank You



Ofcourse not, Robert, it's a call for you to recite for us your "Mozart was manufactured" , "There were two Nissens", "The one and only Bach was a different man than Handel" and "Bad Khazar-Good White Jew" cantatas.

Will you??

Frederic de Nicolay was appointed Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte on 20th July 1762. Great. And the relevance of this, Yanni, is what, precisely ?

You should tell us, exactly, what you wish to prove/demonstrate/confirm, because unless you do so we go round and round in circles. The management of music involved the characters you are trying to study. But the history of music is very different.



...is only to be found online in page 107 of Michael Kassler's "The English Bach awakening: knowledge of J.S. Bach and his music in England":

Frederic de Nicolay was appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte on 20th July 1762!!

Care in the detail is equally important to any art, the one of finding the "errors" of professional history writers and archivist-interpreters included. Such is the case with the following "family site", caring not for the detail but to "name" their relative "sources" of "misunderstanding" nevertheless:

Extract from 'Sketch of the Nicolay Family in England - Part 1' By Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay)

By the second half of the 18th century, the Royal Music Library had expanded to the extent of requiring somebody to maintain it, a role that was filled in the person of Frederick de Nicolay. From a childhood in Saxe-Gotha, Nicolay had emigrated to England and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III).

Ten years later he became Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte, and in due course was elevated to the position of considerable responsibility of Principal Page. He associated with the members of the Queen's private band, and met both Mozart and Haydn. It is clear that Nicolay's duties extended to upkeep of the Queen's Music Library. The ascription 'This Volume belongs to the Queen' is written in his hand in more than fifty of the books in the Royal Music Library, and throughout the Handel autographs there are interleaved sheets on which Nicolay has meticulously noted omissions, mixed-up leaves and other points.

(source: Royal Music Library - Frederick Nicolay (1728-1809) by Dr Nicolas Bell, The British Library

Frederick was introduced to King George III, with whom he became a very great favourite; so much so that when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick Nicolay over to attend his future Queen. He remained ever after the confidential friend of both their Majesties, as well as of their family. He lived in St. James's Palace, London.

http://lyons.familytreeguide.com/getperson.php?personID=I10125&tree=T1&PHPSESSID=fe6ef9f7fe57605fc1b6cb89585846ab

As above written:

A very important period really, 1761-1762:

A JCBach arrives in London...to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is his Berlin publisher cousin.

How important the period was and why the exact date would never have been disclosed but for Mr Kassler will be examined next.

PS Of note is the Berlin Publisher not recognising The Mon Repos Baron as his bood relative in their correspondence. Another negligent editor of history or, most propably, a not well informed on history, later Nicolay genealogist.


''And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented. (Of whom the world was not worthy) - they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect''.

//

'Music ! ', he said, 'but not of any ordinary kind'

Cantata 104
Chorus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gcn6jGQVOg&feature=related

Yanni says of G. Cocchi that he musically disappears in1762 -

Here is some of the reality -

SOME MUSICAL WORKS BY G. COCCHI FROM 1762

G. Cocchi (with Galuppi and Ciampi) publish through a musical pastiche ‘Siampi’ in 1762

G. Cocchi publishes songs by JC Bach by and himself - London - 1763 - Printed in London by Walsh

G. Cocchi published a pasticcio on ‘La Clemeza di Tito’ - 1765 - Printed in London by Walsh

G. Cocchi, Gioacchino.: Duettini 12 per canto..London : Printed by Welcker in London, c. 1770.

According to the music library of the Incurabili in Venice in 1784 G. Cocchi was still writing music there for public concerts.

G. Cocchi composed a Requiem on the death of his wife in 1786

G. Cocchi composed a Dixit Dominus in 1788.

Etc etc etc etc etc
//

[yanni]

Also of great relative interest for last posts of this thread (on JSBach and Handel being one and the same) is another book by Michael Kassler titled "A.F.C. Kollmann's Quarterly musical register (1812): an annotated edition" tracing the introduction in London of the notion of a JSBach composer. It just so happened that this very same year Gerber spilled the beans on a Saint Germain/Giovannini writing his songs in Anna Magdalena Bach's Notebook(see post 6 of this thread) in his Lexicon. The next year, 1813, the first "Nicolay family" genealogist was given a pension by the House of Commons.

That's how JSBach came first to life!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Small interlude, courtesy of the music industry:

By my new "distant cousin", Franz Nicolay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUMq7anqcd0

[Musicology]

The introduction into London in 1812 of 'the notion of a JS Bach composer' ? That's so funny !

Here is some reality. Many of JS Bach's works for keyboard were published in Bach's own lifetime, in Germany, by the composer himself. Don't you know this ? For example, entire volumes under the title Clavier-Übung (Keyboard Practice) I-IV. The first volume was published in 1731 (which, I estimate, is 81 years before 1812 ! ), while the last was published a decade later in 1741 (which is 71 years before 1812). These volumes are an open imitation of two volumes published by Bach's Leipzig predecessor Johann Kuhnau under the same title. (Kuhnau used arrayed keys to structure his exercises, a model Bach also used through the Clavier-Übung volumes). The Well-Tempered Clavier, (48 Preludes and Fugues) however, was not published until half a century after Bach's death - around 1800 - although they were widely in circulation before that date in manuscript form. Several other works were published during Bach's lifetime including cantatas.

So much for the 'notion of JS Bach' the composer !

What you really mean is the Romanised British (whose elites were always and inevitably the ambassadors of the British Empire and had been from the start of that Empire) had literally ignored Bach's music up until around 1812 in England. As had the publishing world also. How is that for control ? Aided and abetted (as already said) by the secret fact the Hanoverian kings were Romanists themselves (though not officially). These are plain facts. George 1, 2 and 3 are typical examples. They are more than plain facts. They are history.

Now you can appreciate who was really controlling the music scene in London from even before the time of Bach and Handel. As indicated repeatedly here on this forum.

Concerto
BWV 1053/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ27A9wahaI&feature=related



Also of great relative interest for last posts of this thread (on JSBach and Handel being one and the same) is another book by Michael Kassler titled "A.F.C. Kollmann's Quarterly musical register (1812): an annotated edition" tracing the introduction in London of the notion of a JSBach composer. It just so happened that this very same year Gerber spilled the beans on a Saint Germain/Giovannini writing his songs in Anna Magdalena Bach's Notebook(see post 6 of this thread) in his Lexicon. The next year, 1813, the first "Nicolay family" genealogist was given a pension by the House of Commons.

That's how JSBach came first to life!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________

Small interlude, courtesy of the music industry:

By my new "distant cousin", Franz Nicolay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUMq7anqcd0

Which keyboard works of G.F. Handel (partitas, sonatas, concertos etc) would you rate alongside those published by J.S. Bach ? During his lifetime, that is ?

[yanni]

He could not very well use his "Johann Sebastian Koch" identity, linking him to the Cocceji-Kochs, in Leipzig, Koethen or London, so he used "Bach" in Saxony and Handel in London. His Opus 1 was announced much earlier but was delayed some five years because of his "Handel" commitments and the intermediate death of King George 1727. July 1730 he is corresponding with Dr Antonio Cocchi-Cocceji-Koch (on Senesino) via Francis Colman.

The rest of your post is rubbish and there'll be no more answers to such next.







The introduction into London in 1812 of 'the notion of a JS Bach composer' ? That's so funny !

Here is some reality. Many of JS Bach's works for keyboard were published in Bach's own lifetime, in Germany, by the composer himself. Don't you know this ? For example, entire volumes under the title Clavier-Übung (Keyboard Practice) I-IV. The first volume was published in 1731 (which, I estimate, is 81 years before 1812 ! ), while the last was published a decade later in 1741 (which is 71 years before 1812). These volumes are an open imitation of two volumes published by Bach's Leipzig predecessor Johann Kuhnau under the same title. (Kuhnau used arrayed keys to structure his exercises, a model Bach also used through the Clavier-Übung volumes). The Well-Tempered Clavier, (48 Preludes and Fugues) however, was not published until half a century after Bach's death - around 1800 - although they were widely in circulation before that date in manuscript form. Several other works were published during Bach's lifetime including cantatas.

So much for the 'notion of JS Bach' the composer !

What you really mean is the Romanised British (whose elites were always and inevitably the ambassadors of the British Empire and had been from the start of that Empire) had literally ignored Bach's music up until around 1812 in England. As had the publishing world also. How is that for control ? Aided and abetted (as already said) by the secret fact the Hanoverian kings were Romanists themselves (though not officially). These are plain facts. George 1, 2 and 3 are typical examples. They are more than plain facts. They are history.

Now you can appreciate who was really controlling the music scene in London from even before the time of Bach and Handel. As indicated repeatedly here on this forum.

Concerto
BWV 1053/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ27A9wahaI&feature=related

[Musicology]

You are quite right Yanni. We cannot continue on such an embarrasing thread for much longer.

Handel (the Manchurian candidate for celebrity in Rome and Venice), who appeared there as an unknown composer from Germany after obtaining 3 operas he never wrote, was feted there by the British nobility of the British Empire and by a string of Roman cardinals. He, Yanni says, is one and the same person as Johann Sebastian Bach. This, says Yanni, is a fact. And I must accept it. Although, on issue after issue it is only the latest fantasy of the multiple personality syndrome invented for composers by Yanni.

The keyboard music of Handel (and I know it quite well) is not like that of JS Bach. It is very different. It is more different than Italian cheese is from fish and chips. It is so different you are invited to post some of Handel's keyboard music here, or his concertos, or any other style of music, so that we can make a fair comparison. But you decline the invitation.

The rest of your post is not rubbish. It is more of the same Yanni.

Here are two works. One by Handel and the other by Bach. They are not the same man.

Handel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu9WzoxEKaM&feature=related


Bach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwEzpH-LzoM&feature=related

Case Closed

[yanni]

(This post confirms EAPoe's 1840's allegations that Saint Germain was "educated" in London-The Visionary).

The following extract is by a well promoted author who helped keep Saint Germain's myth intact until now. It's used exclusively as a link to the reality of the following period as per timeline furtherdown which gives just one of the reasons of creating and funding........


.... the myth.
Like an orchestra:

Meanwhile our philosopher worked on with those whom he was able to help and teach
in various ways. In 1760 we find him set by Louic XV. To the Hague on a political
mission: the circumstances are variously told by different writers. In April, 1760, we find
M. de St. Germain passing through East Friesland to England.22 Next, in The London
Chronicle of June 3rd, 1760, we have a long account of a “mysterious foreigner,” who
had just arrived on England’s shores. It is also said by one writer that he was well
received at Court, and may papers of the period mention him as a “person of note” to
whom marked attention was paid.²(² Gasette of the Netherlands. Jan. 12th, 1761. The
Hague, Jan. 2nd. “Letters from Paris state that when starting for this country, to which he
came without asking permission of the King, M. de St. Germain returned his Red Ribbon:
but it is practically certain that he has an understanding with the King of Denmark. “The
3rd. “The so-called Count of St. Germain is an incomprehensible man of whom nothing
is known; neither his name nor his origin, nor his position; he has an income, no one
knows from whence it is derived; acquaintances, no one knows where he made them;
entry into the Cabinets of Princes without being acknowledged by them!”)
In the British Museum ther are pieces of music composed by the Comte de St. Germain
on both his visits, for they are dated 1745 and 1760. It was said everywhere, by enemies
as well as by friends, that he was a splendid violinist; he “played like an orchestra.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_Cooper-Oakley
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And now to reality:

Jan 1761 to Jul 1763 Timeline (abbreviated).

?.2.1761 A temporary cease fire agreement between Prussia and Russia is extended to May 27.

7.2.61 Cocchi’s*Tito Manlio premiers in London (KT)

10.2.61 Pierre Michel Hennin*is in Warsaw (Hennin a Saint Foix Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761)

18.2.61 François-André Philidor’s*opera Le Jardinier et son seigneur premiers in Paris

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi visits Vienna. (His libretto for Orfeo ed Euridice, partly based on the theories and practices of such literary men as D. Diderot, F.M. von Grimm* Rousseau* and Voltaire, was enthusiastically greeted by Gluck’s friends...)

9.5.61. Caspar Anton von Belderbusch*appointed president of Kurköln (Bonn-Mannheim, roman catholic, heavily influenced by France eversince 1715).

29.5.61 Baron Alexander Stroganov* becomes a Count of the Holy Roman Empire.,

16.6.61 Le chevalier de Chasot à Frédéric, Lübeck.Le comte de Saint-Germain est passé par ici pour aller commander l'armée danoise;

17.7.61 Sterlitz: "A" Colonel Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay*to attend his future Queen.

23.7.61 Giessmannsdorf, Frederick of Prussia writes to J.H.Cocceji*

September, 1761 "One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*"

13.10.61 Cocchi’s Alessandor nell'Indie premiered in London( KT)

17.10.61 Calzabiggi-Durazzo*-Gluck's* Don Juan Don Juan (ballet), Vienna.

9.12.61 Gluck* Le Cadi dupe, Wien ( B)


5.1.62 Frederic "The great event which snatched him from destruction was the death of the Russian empress"

?.1.62: Cocchi is in London directing ‘Tolomeo” a “new serious opera”

28.1.62. Monsieur de La Dixmerie* is in Paris ("...(22), coopérateur de l’abbé de La Porte, passe aussi au Mercure pour la partie des contes...")

March 23 to April 5th 62 French Record Office of Foreign Affairs correspondence between the Duc de Choiseul and Comte d’Affy on a Saint-Germain who “is again in Holland under assumed names, that he has purchased an estate in Guelders and suggests that he is making dupes of people, with chemical secrets, in order to earn a living” and that he then returned “back to Harwich and warned to quit the English shores. He was now thought to be on his way to Berlin”. (Mitchell correspondence)

24.4.62 Tszar Peter III signs a peace treaty with Frederick of Prussia.

3.6.62 Bettlern, Frederick of Prussia gives his instructions to J.H.Cocceji from his headquarters.

7.1762 Fighting alone in the east, the Austrians were soundly defeated in the Battle of Burkersdorf (July, 1762). The French, too, had suffered severe reverses. (Note by Yanni from memory: Saint Germain took a questionable part in the battle)

?7.62 Catherine, supported by the Imperial Guard, overthrows Peter and becomes Catherine II. Peter III dies while held prisoner by the Orlovs. Catherine denies complicity. Graf Gregor Orloff wrote to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Anspach that the Count(de Saint Germain) “played a great part in their revolution” and helped set Catherine II on the throne.

20.7.62 Frederick Nicolay is appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte (!!).

5.10.62. Gluck, Orfeo ed Euridice, Wien( B)

19.2.63 JCBach* opera Orione was given its premiere in London . (In 1764 JC was appointed music master to the Queen.)

14.5.63 Gluck: Bologna, Il trionfo di Clelia

22.7.63 Potsdam,”Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres”.

* Persons marked by * have alll been already identified in other threads as aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, aka Comte de Saint Germain. P.M.Hennin in particular has been also identified as Yanni's ancestor. There were two Hennins, the afore mentioned and a brother "Hennin de Beaupre".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re Bach/Handel's music, church music in particular: It most propably has as source the vast Caccini -Cocchi-Caussin Florence archive, at the time in the hands of Dr Antonio Cocchi, then(1724-26)in London. He is on record as the first italian mason and so are his ties to the english lodge in Florence and his friendship to Isaac Newton and other dignitaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW1FlZpELE0&feature=related

[Musicology]

Yanni begins with the famous smokescreen of St Germain. That will attract kids, for sure ! But let's haul them out of that quicksand. The St Germain who (we are told) knows everyone of real influence in the society of his time but nobody is able to tell us anything about him. Isn't this laughable ? I mean, is this what 'education' means ? It's nonsense. And nobody thinks of asking St. Germain's countless contacts within European society who he, St. Germain actually is ! No, of course not. What an obvious thing for them to ask, yes ? It's the stuff of fairy stories and mysticism, isn’t it ? It’s stuff kids and under-achievers would be interested in. Fantasy island. The solution is rather simple. The chattering classes and the nobility of Europe were personally inventing this idea of mysterious man whom they knew about. But the details of whom they wanted to deliberately mystify for the public. That was the entire point !! It explains exactly why St Germain and others of his kind are reported as a ‘mysterious foreigner’ whose arrival has to be publicly announced.

The King of Denmark is said to have an ‘ understanding with him’. He (St Germain) has ‘entry into the cabinets of Princes without his identity being acknowledged by them!’. And so on. It’s laughable. It's actually ridiculous. This is not worthy of anyone's time. Thus, elites of entire nations are clearly playing a game. Supported by the controlled media of that time (itself controlled by the same elites). The myth making continues because myth makers who support the mysterious man want you to believe his mysteriousness. Such things are the bread and butter of fraternities. It’s a propaganda game being played by those reporting on their strange movements. Report after report is not specific and we, consumers of such things are thus mystified ourselves. The mystery is of course being invented by those whose whole aim is to mystify us. And by nobody else. And there will always be fools who love mystification and obfuscation.

It is the Scarlet Pimpernel, the diversion from reality, reported by the mass media of the time and consumed, wholesale by Yanni.

The solution is far more simple. The aristocracies of Europe and their governments were, at this time, under the control of the usual power. The papacy. A papacy which had already launched a new cultural movement. The so-called ‘Enlightenment’. And a networks of fraternity fools now crossed Europe on missions to control/oversee certain aspects of the secularised European cultural movement of the Englightenment. St Germain and Casanova are two such examples. Rousseau and Voltaire others. There were many others. Reports on their movements are essential parts of the mystification process. But they have no relevance to us whatsoever, except to expose the fraudulent nature of official history.

The music industry was important and it needed to be controlled by them, like everything else. The ‘Enlightenment’ needed to be controlled. From the start. So characters such as Casanova and St Germain were recruited and acted as agents for ‘Enlightenment’ ideas. Even within Britain and beyond the Holy Roman Empire. Surrounded, of course, by tales of mystification. Appointed to high places as roving ambassadors of their manufactured culture and moving freely with the Romanist nobility of that time. There is really nothing mysterious about it. Venetian occultism was already deeply implanted within Germany, England, Denmark and elsewhere. So was Freemasonry (which emerged from it). And St Germain, Casanova, and others were its roving agents. This is why they were the gossip of the time and vagueness and obfuscation was its sole purpose. If the role of such men could be mystified (as we see in these reports) they can and do divert us from what is really happening.

But this has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with gullible men and women. A smokescreen to obscure the fact that musical and cultural reputations were being falsified deliberately across Europe on a wholesale level. With the career assistance of St Germain, Casanova, and the usual fools of its propaganda. Inventing entire careers as we see with men such as Handel. And even (in the case of Yanni) telling us G.F. Handel was J.S. Bach !

St. Germain is (according to Yanni) a composer. He is also a philosopher, an alchemist, a sage, and is superhuman. Documentary 'proof' says so. (Though this is exactly what such documents of St Germain the 'composer' were manufactured to convince us of). St Germain is nothing, in reality, but a roving rogue, a fraud and a product of the usual ruling elite bloodlines of Europe.

Independent of his sideshow (hidden by the British Empire in league with Rome and other interests) was reality itself. The lives and musical careers of countless real men. Most of whom were deliberately ignored by details of the myth making careers of the fraternal St Germain and his occultist accomplices of Rome and Venice. Aided and abetted by later myth makers of the same kind such as Lorenzo da Ponte and others who, within a century, would create with minimal cross-examination the ‘history of music’ - dominated from the start by manufactured heroes, to the exclusion of reality itself. As usual.

Will Man ever grow beyond lying to himself in the name of reality ? Century after century. We should laugh at these giant intrigues of pseudo-musicology and the manufacture of musical icons. All done in the name of the academic and cultural world. Reality is more interesting. The buffoons have had their time. We should humour them and appeal to their sense of honour.

They do have some idea of what honour is, don't they ? The question is whether an entire industry can grow beyond the corporation and the fraternity ? Let's invite pseudo-musicologists and corporate slaves of 'music history' to rejoin the human race.

JS Bach
Concerto
BWV 1057/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2uCnaWsOm0&feature=related

///

[yanni]

Courtesy of Dr David F.C.Wright (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/j-c-bach.pdf) mainly, the previous 1761-63 timeline has been enriched, enough so in fact to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that JCBach, Gioachino Cocchi and the Queens backstair librarian and JSBach editor Nicolay were one and the same.

Hence:

(Items of questionable validity in italics)


Late 1760 timeline summary:

20.9.60 PMHennin writes to van Swieten from Warsaw. The young Van Swieten also posted in Warsaw about that time. (PMHennin's brother -de Beaupre- resides in Versailles in past August-their letter of August 10th,1760).
10-15.10.60 Gluck is in Vienna for his Tetide, his Serenata written on the occasion of Crown Prince Joseph's first marriage. Hasse also moves to Vienna about that time (to settle for the next two years, returning to Dresden in 1763)
?.11.60 Kaiser Frederic writes a letter in code to the Marquis d’Argens from Meissen.
?.11.60 L'Abbe Autoroche leaves Paris for Russia
26.12.60 JCBach’s opera Artaserse premiered in Turin




Jan 1761 to Jul 1763 Timeline (abbreviated)-Enriched version.
(new input in bold)

?.2.1761 A temporary cease fire agreement between Prussia and Russia is extended to May 27.

7.2.61 : Gluck's Le Cinesi (libr by Metastasio) premiers in Saint Petersburg, Bolsoi.

7.2.61 Cocchi’s*Tito Manlio premiers in London (KT).

10.2.61 Pierre Michel Hennin*is in Warsaw (Hennin a Sainte Foix, Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761)

18.2.61 François-André Philidor’s*opera Le Jardinier et son seigneur premiers in Paris

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi visits Vienna.

10.4.61 Abbe Chape Auteroche , CASSINI's protege, arrives in Tobolsk to observe an astronomical phenomenon.

9.5.61. Caspar Anton von Belderbusch*appointed president of Kurköln (Bonn-Mannheim, roman catholic, heavily influenced by France eversince 1715).

29.5.61 Baron Alexander Stroganov* becomes a Count of the Holy Roman Empire.,

16.6.61 Le chevalier de Chasot à Frédéric, Lübeck.Le comte de Saint-Germain est passé par ici pour aller commander l'armée danoise;

17.7.61 Sterlitz: "A" brit Colonel David Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay*to attend his future Queen.

23.7.61 Giessmannsdorf, Frederick of Prussia writes to J.H.Cocceji*

? 9.61 "One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*"

8.9. 61 JCBach: Ode on the Auspicious arrival and nuptials of Queen Charlotte chamber cantata performed.

13.10.61 Cocchi’s Alessandor nell'Indie premiered in London( KT)

17.10.61 Calzabiggi-Durazzo*-Gluck's* Don Juan Don Juan (ballet), Vienna.

4.11.61 JCBach: Catone in Utica, San Carlo, Napoli

9.12.61 Gluck* Le Cadi dupe, Wien ( B)

2.1.62: Cocchi is in London directing ‘Tolomeo” (KT)

5.1.62 Frederic "The great event which snatched him from destruction was the death of the Russian empress"

20.1.62 JCBach:Alessandro ne’ll Indie,San Carlo, honouring the King of Spain for his birthday.

28.1.62. Monsieur de La Dixmerie* is in Paris ("...(22), coopérateur de l’abbé de La Porte, passe aussi au Mercure pour la partie des contes...")

March 23 to April 5th 62 French Record Office of Foreign Affairs correspondence between the Duc de Choiseul and Comte d’Affy on a Saint-Germain who “is again in Holland under assumed names, that he has purchased an estate in Guelders and suggests that he is making dupes of people, with chemical secrets, in order to earn a living” and that he then returned “back to Harwich and warned to quit the English shores. He was now thought to be on his way to Berlin”. (Mitchell correspondence)

24.4.62 Tszar Peter III signs a peace treaty with Frederick of Prussia.

3.6.62 Bettlern, Frederick of Prussia gives his instructions to J.H.Cocceji from his headquarters.

7.1762 Fighting alone in the east, the Austrians were soundly defeated in the Battle of Burkersdorf (July, 1762). The French, too, had suffered severe reverses. (Note by Yanni from memory: Saint Germain took a questionable part in the battle)

?7.62 Catherine, supported by the Imperial Guard, overthrows Peter and becomes Catherine II. Peter III dies while held prisoner by the Orlovs. Catherine denies complicity. Graf Gregor Orloff wrote to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Anspach that the Count (Comte de Saint Germain) “played a great part in their revolution” and helped set Catherine II on the throne.

20.7.62 Frederick Nicolay is appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte (!!).

5.10.62. Gluck, Orfeo ed Euridice, Wien( B)

19.2.63 JCBach* opera Orione was given its premiere in London . (In 1764 JC was appointed music master to the Queen.)

7.5.63 JCBach's Zanaidi. London ("Then there was trouble" writes the good doctor, propably troubled by lack of London info for his hero everafter.)

14.5.63 Gluck: Bologna, Il trionfo di Clelia

22.7.63 Potsdam,”Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres”.

* Persons marked by * have alll been already identified in other threads as aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, aka Comte de Saint Germain. P.M.Hennin in particular has been also identified as Yanni's ancestor. There were two Hennins, the afore mentioned and a brother "Hennin de Beaupre".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thankfull for the good Doctor's contribution, Yanni is still studying his article along with http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-17312648/new-light-mozart-london.html, focusing on the famous Mozart London visit, 1764-65, to further improve and clarify the identities and actions of snowwhite-lutheran-Johann Sebastian's manufacturers! Ceasar Koch of Post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=873911 will be brought to action again!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thanks for the discussion. Yanni is definitely not the same man as Robert - and vice-versa. Although the timeline suggests otherwise.

Here is some more music by G.F. Handel, alias J.S. Bach, father of J.C. Bach, also known as..... alias, son of...., alias.... that well known cousin of Cocchi, aka.... father of.... and all, of course, the same person.

In a world of imitations and counterfeits we can be glad they do not completely obscure reality.

Concerto BWV 1060
3rd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhY0tHnxsI&feature=related

///



Courtesy of Dr David F.C.Wright (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/j-c-bach.pdf) mainly, the previous 1761-63 timeline has been enriched, enough so in fact to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that JCBach, Gioachino Cocchi and the Queens backstair librarian and JSBach editor Nicolay were one and the same.

Hence:

(Items of questionable validity in italics)


Late 1760 timeline summary:

20.9.60 PMHennin writes to van Swieten from Warsaw. The young Van Swieten also posted in Warsaw about that time. (PMHennin's brother -de Beaupre- resides in Versailles in past August-their letter of August 10th,1760).
10-15.10.60 Gluck is in Vienna for his Tetide, his Serenata written on the occasion of Crown Prince Joseph's first marriage. Hasse also moves to Vienna about that time (to settle for the next two years, returning to Dresden in 1763)
?.11.60 Kaiser Frederic writes a letter in code to the Marquis d’Argens from Meissen.
?.11.60 L'Abbe Autoroche leaves Paris for Russia
26.12.60 JCBach’s opera Artaserse premiered in Turin




Jan 1761 to Jul 1763 Timeline (abbreviated)-Enriched version.
(new input in bold)

?.2.1761 A temporary cease fire agreement between Prussia and Russia is extended to May 27.

7.2.61 : Gluck's Le Cinesi (libr by Metastasio) premiers in Saint Petersburg, Bolsoi.

7.2.61 Cocchi’s*Tito Manlio premiers in London (KT).

10.2.61 Pierre Michel Hennin*is in Warsaw (Hennin a Sainte Foix, Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761)

18.2.61 François-André Philidor’s*opera Le Jardinier et son seigneur premiers in Paris

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi visits Vienna.

10.4.61 Abbe Chape Auteroche , CASSINI's protege, arrives in Tobolsk to observe an astronomical phenomenon.

9.5.61. Caspar Anton von Belderbusch*appointed president of Kurköln (Bonn-Mannheim, roman catholic, heavily influenced by France eversince 1715).

29.5.61 Baron Alexander Stroganov* becomes a Count of the Holy Roman Empire.,

16.6.61 Le chevalier de Chasot à Frédéric, Lübeck.Le comte de Saint-Germain est passé par ici pour aller commander l'armée danoise;

17.7.61 Sterlitz: "A" brit Colonel David Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay*to attend his future Queen.

23.7.61 Giessmannsdorf, Frederick of Prussia writes to J.H.Cocceji*

? 9.61 "One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*"

8.9. 61 JCBach: Ode on the Auspicious arrival and nuptials of Queen Charlotte chamber cantata performed.

13.10.61 Cocchi’s Alessandor nell'Indie premiered in London( KT)

17.10.61 Calzabiggi-Durazzo*-Gluck's* Don Juan Don Juan (ballet), Vienna.

4.11.61 JCBach: Catone in Utica, San Carlo, Napoli

9.12.61 Gluck* Le Cadi dupe, Wien ( B)

2.1.62: Cocchi is in London directing ‘Tolomeo” (KT)

5.1.62 Frederic "The great event which snatched him from destruction was the death of the Russian empress"

20.1.62 JCBach:Alessandro ne’ll Indie,San Carlo, honouring the King of Spain for his birthday.

28.1.62. Monsieur de La Dixmerie* is in Paris ("...(22), coopérateur de l’abbé de La Porte, passe aussi au Mercure pour la partie des contes...")

March 23 to April 5th 62 French Record Office of Foreign Affairs correspondence between the Duc de Choiseul and Comte d’Affy on a Saint-Germain who “is again in Holland under assumed names, that he has purchased an estate in Guelders and suggests that he is making dupes of people, with chemical secrets, in order to earn a living” and that he then returned “back to Harwich and warned to quit the English shores. He was now thought to be on his way to Berlin”. (Mitchell correspondence)

24.4.62 Tszar Peter III signs a peace treaty with Frederick of Prussia.

3.6.62 Bettlern, Frederick of Prussia gives his instructions to J.H.Cocceji from his headquarters.

7.1762 Fighting alone in the east, the Austrians were soundly defeated in the Battle of Burkersdorf (July, 1762). The French, too, had suffered severe reverses. (Note by Yanni from memory: Saint Germain took a questionable part in the battle)

?7.62 Catherine, supported by the Imperial Guard, overthrows Peter and becomes Catherine II. Peter III dies while held prisoner by the Orlovs. Catherine denies complicity. Graf Gregor Orloff wrote to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Anspach that the Count (Comte de Saint Germain) “played a great part in their revolution” and helped set Catherine II on the throne.

20.7.62 Frederick Nicolay is appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte (!!).

5.10.62. Gluck, Orfeo ed Euridice, Wien( B)

19.2.63 JCBach* opera Orione was given its premiere in London . (In 1764 JC was appointed music master to the Queen.)

7.5.63 JCBach's Zanaidi. London ("Then there was trouble" writes the good doctor, propably troubled by lack of London info for his hero everafter.)

14.5.63 Gluck: Bologna, Il trionfo di Clelia

22.7.63 Potsdam,”Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres”.

* Persons marked by * have alll been already identified in other threads as aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, aka Comte de Saint Germain. P.M.Hennin in particular has been also identified as Yanni's ancestor. There were two Hennins, the afore mentioned and a brother "Hennin de Beaupre".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thankfull for the good Doctor's contribution, Yanni is still studying his article along with http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-17312648/new-light-mozart-london.html, focusing on the famous Mozart London visit, 1764-65, to further improve and clarify the identities and actions of snowwhite-lutheran-Johann Sebastian's manufacturers! Ceasar Koch of Post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=873911 will be brought to action again!

[yanni]

The important role of ladies in the life and career of an unduly frivolous, roman-catholic London Bach, son of JSBach no doubt!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Signora Colomba Mattei, director of King's Theater lures young Bach to London......

His 3‐act opera Artaserse was prod. at Turin in 1760 , followed by Catone in Utica in Naples the same year and Alessandro nell'Indie in 1762 . These events were regarded in Milan as unduly frivolous, and Bach accepted offer from Signora Mattei, dir., King's Th., London, to succeed Cocchi as composer to the opera. His first London opera, Orione, prod. 1763 .

Read more: Johann Christian Bach Biography - (b Leipzig, 1735 ; d London, 1782 ), Artaserse, Catone in Utica http://arts.jrank.org/pages/17887/Johann-Christian-Bach.html#ixzz11Cc81auJ and 1785 first ever appearance of baron Munchhausen in print http://www.wienerzeitung.at/Desktopdefault.aspx?tabID=3946&alias=Wzo&lexikon=Auto&letter=A&cob=7725




....read all about it in next!

[Musicology]

Every British monarch before and since Henry 8th (including himself) has been a private, practicing Roman Catholic. (But don't tell the children and never admit this in the history textbooks. It would ruin the old story of protestants 'perscuting' all those who were not). (A loyal Roman monarchy always supported loyal by an aristocracy who looked back to the papally approved invasion and occupation of William the Conqueror in 1066 for the fact of their own English estates and privileges). FACT. And, contrary to popular myth, Henry 8th at no time renounced his Roman Catholic faith. FACT. This too contrary to popular stories. The single exception to this millenium of hypocrisy appearing to be Elizabeth 1st.

And, speaking of humbug and hypocrisy in high places, what is this ? From the Restoration of Charles 2nd (after the Commonwealth period) in 1660. (When the streets of London were artificially packed by specially invited loyal Romanists of the British aristocracy to welcome the arrival from France of a new king ! How touching !!! Giving the impression England did not want their own independence. Preceded by the secret Treaty of Dover. (They don't teach that also in history classes). And, surprise, surprise, what did that consist of ? The 'conversion' to Rome of the same King Charles 2nd. That's unusual isn't it ? Hidden from English public knowledge, of course. It mattered in those days, didn't it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Dover

Humbug and hypocrisy from the elites of the Vaticanised Europe and their loyal servants and resident stooges in Britain. Some things never change. You have to laugh at these games of a state/church marriage. Supported loyally by the usual fraternities of course. Now you will tell us the music scene in London was not dominated by Venetians, Romanists and supporters of his papal majesty. (Cough, cough !).

Speaking of something not Roman, nor falsified, nor frivolous -

J.S. Bach
Sonata BWV 1031

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1_BTXSHXM&feature=related

Ah, yes, Music !! How did YOU survive ???

:rolleyes5:



The important role of ladies in an unduly frivolous, roman-catholic London Bach, son of JSBach no doubt!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Signora Colomba Mattei, director of King's Theater lures young Bach to London......

His 3‐act opera Artaserse was prod. at Turin in 1760 , followed by Catone in Utica in Naples the same year and Alessandro nell'Indie in 1762 . These events were regarded in Milan as unduly frivolous, and Bach accepted offer from Signora Mattei, dir., King's Th., London, to succeed Cocchi as composer to the opera. His first London opera, Orione, prod. 1763 .

Read more: Johann Christian Bach Biography - (b Leipzig, 1735 ; d London, 1782 ), Artaserse, Catone in Utica http://arts.jrank.org/pages/17887/Johann-Christian-Bach.html#ixzz11Cc81auJ and 1785 first ever appearance of baron Munchhausen in print http://www.wienerzeitung.at/Desktopdefault.aspx?tabID=3946&alias=Wzo&lexikon=Auto&letter=A&cob=7725




....read all about it in next!

[yanni]

The usual idiotic chorus by Snowwhite distorting history:

The Act of 1701 that brought the german speaking Hannoverians to the british throne, barred relative access to any non-protestant british subject everafter and strongly discriminated against them in many other ways as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Ascendancy

The Seven Years' War (1756-1763), with Prussia and Great Britain fighting the alliance of Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, and Saxony, defined the lifes and the somewhat uncertain and complicated carreers of the heroes of this thread, such as the triple-faced JS Handel/Bach/Koch and the thousand- faced comte de Saint Germain-Cocchi-Koch.

From: The Second Little Clavier Book For Anna Magdalena Bach - 1725
By Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) or perhaps his chorrpräfect Johann Sebastian Koch, geboren 1689 in Ammern bei Mühlhausen und gestorben 1757 als Cantor in Schleiz or, most propably, by Handel, all brilliant-white Lutheran pipesmokers, honouring lyrics thru their music: Singspiel? Sounds like an early Joan Baez anyhow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fyg_147jd4

So oft ich meine Tobacks-Pfeife,
Mit gutem Knaster angefüllt,
Zur Lust und Zeitvertreib ergreife,
So gibt sie mir ein Trauerbild-
Und füget diese Lehre bei,
Daß ich derselben ähnlich sei.

Mühlhausen does have a certain resonant similarity to Münchausen, doesn't it!!


Every British monarch before and since Henry 8th (including himself) has been a private, practicing Roman Catholic. (But don't tell the children and never admit this in the history textbooks. It would ruin the old story of protestants 'perscuting' all those who were not). (A loyal Roman monarchy always supported loyal by an aristocracy who looked back to the papally approved invasion and occupation of William the Conqueror in 1066 for the fact of their own English estates and privileges). FACT. And, contrary to popular myth, Henry 8th at no time renounced his Roman Catholic faith. FACT. This too contrary to popular stories. The single exception to this millenium of hypocrisy appearing to be Elizabeth 1st.

And, speaking of humbug and hypocrisy in high places, what is this ? From the Restoration of Charles 2nd (after the Commonwealth period) in 1660. (When the streets of London were artificially packed by specially invited loyal Romanists of the British aristocracy to welcome the arrival from France of a new king ! How touching !!! Giving the impression England did not want their own independence. Preceded by the secret Treaty of Dover. (They don't teach that also in history classes). And, surprise, surprise, what did that consist of ? The 'conversion' to Rome of the same King Charles 2nd. That's unusual isn't it ? Hidden from English public knowledge, of course. It mattered in those days, didn't it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Dover

Humbug and hypocrisy from the elites of the Vaticanised Europe and their loyal servants and resident stooges in Britain. Some things never change. You have to laugh at these games of a state/church marriage. Supported loyally by the usual fraternities of course. Now you will tell us the music scene in London was not dominated by Venetians, Romanists and supporters of his papal majesty. (Cough, cough !).

Speaking of something not Roman, nor falsified, nor frivolous -

J.S. Bach
Sonata BWV 1031

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1_BTXSHXM&feature=related

Ah, yes, Music !! How did YOU survive ???

:rolleyes5:

[Musicology]

Yanni writes of .

'' The Act of 1701 that brought the german speaking Hannoverians to the british throne, barred relative access to any non-protestant british subject everafter and strongly discriminated against them in many other ways as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Ascendancy''

Complete nonsense !! You are 'playing to the gallery', aren't you Yanni ? In the case of Rome they imposed their monarchy, their monopoly of rule on England and on entire nations, plus their dogmas, their ruthless, enforceable, brutal regimes on mankind. Everywhere they went. They invented a marriage of church and state. From 381 AD onwards. And even handed out land estates across western Europe known as the 'Donations of Constatine' to bring their own loyal kings to power. Didn't they ? This for over 1,000 years. And when their own giant land fraud was finally exposed to be based on a pious forgery (by Valla and later by Martin Luther of Germany) this fact was conveniently forgotten. All of this is fact, from the time of Augustine of Hippo up until the Ustashi and the Vatican alliance with the Third Reich. And who wrote the Patriot Act ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

It was the papacy who ORDERED ALL living in England to disobey the law of the land. In 1570. Under penalty of excommunication. Want the documentary proof ? Here from one of 204 surviving documents which say so. Read it carefully.

Do you notice the following -

We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.

http://www.tudorhistory.org/primary/papalbull.html

How is that for dogmatic and intolerant tyranny ? Quick ! We better supress it !!

The first loyalty of a Roman Catholic is and has always been to a foreign power. The Vatican State IS A FOREIGN POWER ISN'T IT YANNI ? That's the problem. And England knew this. It's still true today. It was never at any time illegal to be a Roman Catholic in England but it WAS unlawful for a man whose first loyalty was the dogmas of the church of Rome to be a leader in this country. Show us differently. When was it illegal to be a Roman Catholic in English history. Just tell us when ?? No answer. As usual. Fair and reasonable, no ? Because the papacy here in 1570 was ordering the entire nation (Catholics and non-Catholics) to disobey the laws of the land.

As for the monarchies of England, ALL were Romanist. In private. That was a condition of the entire monarchy. And had been 'in perpetuity' ever since Norman times. You do know this, don't you ? But the illusion was created otherwise. By politicians.

You speak of the German 'protestant' kings of England. Hogwash ! Here is the first paragraph of the Treaty of Versailles (1783) signed by the allegedly 'protestant' King George 3rd. -


''It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences''.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qOUCcUGdgYUJ:www.answers.com/topic/treaty-of-paris-1783+treaty+of+versailles+1783+treasurer+of+the+ho ly+roman+empire&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Let's agree on one thing Yanni. You write the fiction and I will produce in reply the documentary facts. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to believe historical and indisputable fact.

J.S. Bach
Cantata 147
Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wraO_FOpFJ4

(what does that mean, in German ?)

Heart and Mouth and Deed and Life (No room for hypocrisy there, is there ?).

Don't be ignorant. LISTEN TO IT !!!!!!!! Then dance.

LOL !!!!

[yanni]

"Johann Christian Bach – the queen's professor – put the little Mozart on his knees and played some chords, then the child continued, and thus, playing in turn, they played a whole sonata with a marvellous precision.” Nissen

...is the only "evidence" of the Mozarts meeting JCBach in London, 1764-1765 and, by now, even our one and only Count Snowwhite should be able to appreciate how valid such evidence is.

Nissen-Mozart, 8years old at the time, may be excused for a memory lapse or his inability to distinguish between JCBach (then-1764-65-allegedly at his forte in London) and Cocchi but the fact is Leopold Mozart, having in his list of contacts-to-be Cocchi only (remaining allegedly in London's backstage after his replacement by JCBach who took over with Abel Mme Cornely's establishment in Soho Square) never records meeting any of the aforementioned three (Cocchi, JCBach and de Nicolay) as from their arrival (23 April 1764) to the end of same year, thus deciding against attending Abel's (only) concerts to safeguard his childrens morals from bad influences.
(New light on the Mozart's London visit: a private concert with Manzuoli. Music & Letters| May 01, 1995 | Woodfield, Ian)

There never was a JCBach, you see, or a de Nicolay(the queen's professor?), both coverstories for Cocchi, and the Mozarts did not meet him in London (except perhaps only briefly, shrtly before Xmas 1764*)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any well sourced evidence to the contrary will be wellcomed and handsomely rewarded!

PS Pick up your argument with Wikipedia and your Seven indoctrinated dwarfs, Robert, this thread is on Bach-Nobach!

*PMHennin returns to Paris 26th December 1764, travelling by ship from Saint Petersburg propably.

[Musicology]

Why add to what is already as clear as daylight ? You make the most appalling generalisations and have no shame in being torn to pieces over and over again by the inconvenient facts of history. The question is this. Can anything be more real than reality ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jFxeO63fj8&feature=related

[yanni]

That's how they* cover up (partially only) the "JCBach" fairy tale:

The King's theater was run by Colomba Mattei and Joseph Trombetta (ehhmmm!) "late 1750's and early 1760's. They engaged G.Cocchi and later JCCBach but lost money and abandoned the field to the violinist Giardini...whose management proved a fiasco in its one season (1763-64)...From 1765 to 1778 the company was owned and operated by a shifting group of outside investors..."

In other words: "JCBach" never received any Trombetta-Mattei invitation, or in any case never presented his "Orione" himself in 1763,under Giardini who fiascoed and went bankrupt(with Cocchi missing from London long before) and, if any private concerts were given at all at Cornelly's by Abel, they were deemed unfit by Leopold Mozart who never met Cocchi/JCBach 1764 or 1765. Cocchi was in other diplomatic missions then and thereafter as well(!).

As JCBach (and as Gluck-Haydn too) he reappeared for a while at KT again in the late 70's to then fall sick, die bankrupt and be buried in a massgrave in 1782. Allegedly!!!

And naturally Mozart-Nissen covers up for him in his "Mozart" whatever and so do all his,lutheran anglosaxon and "secular" french, patrons, friends and countless offsprings(but one) while also ruling their freemarket creation eversince.

Who was Gioachino Cocchi? Judging from his writing in Mme Koch/Bach's buchlein and his exceptional behaviour and characteristics, he was most propably the result of Antonio Cocchi's visiting his Koch relatives on his way to England, 1724, picking him up on his way back, 1726 to then raise him himself when there, or else to the care of nannies and private tutors, as reflected on Rousseau's own writings on the merits of one to one education.

Sieg Heil!

PS The offer to reward any reader proving otherwise is still valid. Handicapped members of Snowhite's all white brotherhood should not hesitate to accept the invitation as well.


*"Italian Opera in Late Eighteenth-century London: The King's Theatre ..." by Curtis Alexander Price,Judith Milhous,Robert D. Hume.

This thread lists #1 in about 20000 when googling for "Bach variations".

This is your chance to fame and glory Robert: It's now or never, there is no tommorow!

(In memory of Elvis and Dean)

[Musicology]

This is Yanni's chance for fame and glory also.

I agree with you the present is what counts. We do what we can.



This thread lists #1 in about 20000 when googling for "Bach variations".

This is your chance to fame and glory Robert: It's now or never, there is no tommorow!

(In memory of Elvis and Dean)

[yanni]

Ofcourse it's the present that counts, Count, and as a declared musicologist, expert on Mozart and fond of JSBach, I do believe that the subject of 8 year old Mozart being tutored by JCBach/Abel 1764-5 in London, offers a great opportunity to you in particular:

This is how a Mr Garry Smith treats the subject in his Abel elegy at Mozartforum , contradicting Nissen's word:

Fourteen days prior to Handel's death, Abel announced his arrival in London with his first concert on 27 March 1759*.....In a short period of time, he was admitted to English society, then received the royal privilege to print his own music in London, and finally was named to the post of Royal Chamber Musician to Queen Charlotte......
Linking up with Johann Christian Bach...they planned to produce a series of concerts, featuring both of them as performers playing (mostly) their own works....Originally planned as just a series of concerts for the year 1765, these public subscription concerts (the Bach-Abel Concerts) gained great renown and became a yearly musical event from 1765 to 1782.....While it has always been noted that Mozart was one of the first independent entrepreneurs in music, it can be seen that Abel was likely amongst THE first, and more successful, to boot. Certainly things were going well enough that by the 1770's he was able to spend considerable time in Paris every year doing business, as well as relaxing.

As displaced Germans, Bach and Abel offered opportunities to other foreign musicians coming to London to get established, either as performers at the concerts, or as published composers via Abel's publishing set-up. So, when the Mozart family arrived on tour in London, it may have been Bach that the young Mozart bonded to, but Abel was the one instrumental in providing contacts and helping Leopold with the business of setting up concerts and musical displays. As well, it should be noted that Wolfgang copied out Abel's Symphony Opus 7 No. 6 for closer study. Hence, for decades this work was believed to be by Mozart, so well did it accord with the young Wolfgang's style. Or, of course, did young Mozart's style derive from the older Abel, who was really a direct contemporary of Leopold rather than that of Wolfgang?

Is there any evidence whatsoever, other than "music for sale" publications by "Abel" that there ever was one concert given by Abel (or even allegedly absent JCBach) during 1764-1765?

OR that there ever existed a real "Abel" besides the penname/alias?

After crossing out Cocchi, JCBach and De Nicolay, you see,this cursed curiosity of mine made me google for "Leopold Mozart Abel" this morning and all I came out with were studies by various colleagues of yours trying to figure out the strong Gluck, Haydn, JCBach etc influences in Mozart's works , some via "Abel", such as Mozart's third symphony identified as Symphony No. 6 by Carl Friedrich Abel, copied and possibly re-orchestrated by Mozart in London, as an exercise.

Otherwise the search did not produce ANY EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel", WHATSOEVER.

Have you ever searched for such yourself?

*Cocchi: Divertimenti, Per Musica Vocale, ed Istrumentale, a Voce Sola, e a Due, da potersi eseguire con Accompagnamenti, e senza: Come ancora per uso di varie sorti d'Istrumenti a solo, a due, e a tre. Dedicati All'Illustrissimo Signore Humphry Morice Esqr. Londra: [s.n.], 1759. Oblong folio. [iii (title, dedication)], 72pp. Disbound. Three black lines down fore-edges. Dedication leaf is dated "1, Marzo, 1759".


This is Yanni's chance for fame and glory also.

I agree with you the present is what counts. We do what we can.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You really need to stand back from your posts, take a deep breath, and reconsider. You are missing the entire point.

The music industry has definitely invented its own 'history'. That includes a 'history' of entire series of musical 'concerts' which never took place. Let me repeat that. It includes entire series of 'concerts' which never actually took place. Because Cocchi, JC Bach, Abel, Haydn, Mozart and others were ACTORS in a game of 'musical tours' and 'concerts'. So were their 'managers'. That is fact number 1. Don't worry about Abel. He was real. And yes, he wrote music that has been attributed to Mozart. By design. That was normal for them. It was common. It justified their existence within the music scene of its time.

When Joseph Haydn came to England he is credited with giving lots of chamber concerts. Which are also fiction. JC Bach/Abel's concerts are also nonsense. So are those of Salomon/Josef Haydn on their two later visits to England. And so were the series of Mozart piano concerto concerts supposedly given in Lent 1784 in Vienna to over 100 'subscribers'.

Does this surprise you ? It doesn't surprise me at all. The official history of music is built on individualistic legends/fictions. It needs those legends of huge popular success to maintain its status. And yes, Abel supplied various musical works that were credited to W.A. Mozart. So did many others. (Including the early symphony to which you refer). JC Bach had joined part of the musical mafia that had years earlier produced the high profile careers of Handel. Which would finally produce those of Haydn and Mozart. It was a fraternity. A business. An industry. But Abel was a real composer. So were dozens of others who produced works for whoever needed them.

One was working for the glory of man. The other was working for the glory of God.

J.S. Bach
Chorus
Cantata 161/5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ke8OWq9lw&feature=related

and -

J.S. Bach
Chorus
Cantata 19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bauP65Bnkfw&feature=related

[yanni]

You confirm that there is NO EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel" WHATSOEVER!

PS Are you referring to the same JSBach who was appointed 'Composer to the Royal Court Capelle' (roman catholic), Dresden, 1837?

[Musicology]

NO, I am not 'confirming' no contact between Abel and the Mozarts. I am confirming the very opposite !!! How can you possibly be so confused on so many simple issues ? I am confirming actual/real contact between Abel and the Mozarts in respect of the symphony you know Mozart claims to be his own. The one you just reminded us about !!!! Which was given to the Mozarts by its composer -
(Symphony in E op.7 no.6 was copied by Mozart in London and was long described (falsely) as Mozart’s work (formerly listed as k18). This symphony was composed by -

a. Ronald Macdonald ?
b. Karl Friedrich Abel (1723-1783) ?
c. Donald Duck ?

And NO, I am definitely NOT refering to any other JS Bach except the Kapellmeister of Leipzig, JS Bach (1685-1750).

Are YOU refering to another J.S. Bach ?????? Yes, you are ? Why are you refering to another J.S. Bach ? Are you just trying to lead us round and round in circles, again ? Yes, you are !!!

This is fun. Do you like going round and round inside a spin dryer of your own invention ?


You confirm that there is NO EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel" WHATSOEVER!

PS Are you referring to the same JSBach who was appointed 'Composer to the Royal Court Capelle' (roman catholic), Dresden, 1837?

[yanni]

But you are not able/willing to produce evidence of any contact between the Mozarts and Abel (who, unlike Cocchi, never was in Leopold's list) who allegedly (as per previous) was the Mozarts link to London High Society, huh?

And you furthermore doubt the well documented fact of JSBach's royal roman catholic 1737 Dresen appointment?

Remember Elmer Fudd?

[Musicology]

Yanni, I think you need to take more care in what you are writing. It causes confusion when you do not.

In post 261 (of only a few hours ago) you asked (and I quote) -

PS Are you referring to the same J S Bach who was appointed 'Composer to the Royal Court Capelle' (roman catholic), Dresden, 1837?

1837 ? ? ?

The J.S. Bach I am referring to died in 1750.

///

In reply to your question of whether the Mozarts met Karl Friedrich Abel in London we have -

1. Documentary evidence of the Abel symphony Op. 7 No. 6. which W.A. Mozart copied in London. And which has often (and falsely) been published as Mozart's own.

2. Documentary evidence of Leopold Mozart's travel diary for London 1764 - which as you can see here for yourself contains reference on Line 5 to the Mozarts meeting both K.F. Abel and JC Bach at King's Square Court, Soho, in London during that same year of 1764. Doesn't it ?

http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Mozart,+Leopold/Reiseaufzeichnungen+1763-1771/2.+Leopold+Mozarts+Reise-Aufzeichnungen+1763-1771/Seite+33+-+Tafel+12?hl=leopold+mozart+abel

If you require even more documentary evidence K.F. Abel and JC Bach met the Mozarts in London during their visit ask me. But I think we already see the answer. Your view they never met is clearly wrong. At least, unless/until you have evidence showing they could not have met we must assume they did so. Isn't that common sense ?

A great number of things in the Mozart source documents are false. But they are proved to be false only if we can provide evidence which show them to be so.


///

[yanni]

Your point 1 does not exclude Abel having copied the work himself.

Your point 2: Your zeno.org's "evidence" refers only to contacts Leopold intends to make while in London, not those already made.

Furthermore:

Relatively recently, along with a new form of presentation that excludes a search possibility, zeno.org has removed any reference to Cocchi or "maestro Cochi" from their website. He was included there while we were discussing "Beethoven's Kochs".

A clear case of wiener sausage manufacture trade secret!

[Musicology]

No, it is a list of people met and the actual time when they met the Mozarts. Furthermore, they could not have planned to meet them without contact. Beyond all fair and reasonable doubt the Mozarts met Abel and JC Bach - exactly as Leopold Mozart writes in his travel diary, exactly as we see in this symphony of Abel, copied by W.A. Mozart. The address where they met is right there in the diary. That is conclusive evidence of a specific meeting. And your counter evidence is what, precisely ? Zero, as usual.

S.M. Helm: ''Carl Friedrich Abel, Symphonist'' (London, 1953)



Your point 1 does not exclude Abel having copied the work himself.

Your point 2: Your zeno.org's "evidence" refers only to contacts Leopold intends to make while in London, not those already made.

Furthermore:

Relatively recently, along with a new form of presentation that excludes a search possibility, zeno.org has removed any reference to Cocchi or "maestro Cochi" from their website. He was included there while we were discussing "Beethoven's Kochs".

A clear case of wiener sausage manufacture trade secret!

[yanni]

You are right on #1 but it's a fake: Nobody keeps such a reisenotiz/diary spanning over some 9 months on one page.

Any other evidence,not by the culprits themselves?

...and there is the small matter of #2!

[Musicology]

It is not really a diary. It is obviously a record of people seen and major events, made chronologically after those events. In this case (although you don't like it) it tells us exactly where and when the Mozarts met JC Bach and Abel in London. Contrary to your own view. That one page where their meeting is recorded also provides no less than 5 specific dates and also specific addresses and people. Many others do the same. It is plainly a record made after those events. One of various records made by Leopold Mozart. And if you bother to read the whole document (which you might do if you are really trying to see if it is genuine) you see (and so can anyone) it is a record made of movements and of contacts they had. Arranged chronologically.

You cannot say it's a 'fake' without evidence to say so. What evidence ? It clearly states Leopold and W.A. Mozart met JC Bach and Abel in London, during their stay in London. It tells us exactly where they met. Doesn't it ? And unless you can show otherwise (by showing, for example, Abel was in Norway, or Italy, or somewhere else) we must fairly consider they actually met as this document says.

So, we have this documentary evidence. What do you have to show it's a fake ? Maybe your ideas are based on fakes too ? Therefore we must say if a document exists it ought to be accepted as genuine, unless we have good evidence it is a fake. How else shall we proceed ? This is essential Yanni.



You are right on #1 but it's a fake: Nobody keeps such a reisenotiz/diary spanning over some 9 months on one page.

Any other evidence,not by the culprits themselves?

...and there is the small matter of #2!

[yanni]

Zeno.org mentions a maestro cochi at Cornelys but ,as no date is given and with Leopold deciding against Cornelys, the matter remains wide open:

Leopold never met Cocchi (who was elsewhere eversince -date unknown:if he is the same as JCBach,then shortly after 23rd February 1764-his departure from London, to return to Paris as "Grimm" and "Hennin" in December 1764) thus decided against appearing at Mme Cornely's as from October 1764 and seems to have had noone from his earlier contacts (Abel, Bach,Nicolai, Cochi) to promote him either, thus deciding against attending the Abel-Bach concerts (if they ever did take place 1765) and facing a financial dissapointment or clash, February the 21st 1765 and later, to the end of their visit to London.

In the autumn of 1764 a concert series on Wednesday evening was also under consideration; one of the directors was to be Gioacchino Cocchi, who had already run a series for her earlier in the year. 'Maestro Cocchi' and 'Madame Cornelys - Soho Square' are listed in the 'Reisenotizen', lines 64 and 65, and these entries can therefore be dated to about October 1764.(13) Grimm's letter to Ernst Ludwig of Saxe-Gotha dated 13 December 1764 referred specifically to a proposed project with Mrs Cornelys. He reported the Mozarts' early success at court and Leopold's ensuing illness and then stated that in order to recover the losses sustained by the recent period of inactivity Leopold had a plan to give 'a subscription concert at each assembly at Mrs Cornelys's in Soho Square'.(14) Neal Zaslaw has argued that Grimm may here have been referring 'to the impending Bach-Abel series rather than the apparently defunct series run by Cocchi or to an undocumented series run by Leopold himself'.(15) In mid October, however, the plan seems to have been for a series with all three musicians. On 19 October Mrs Harris wrote to her son: 'If his Lordship has an inclination for a good concert, he may have one and twenty, at Mrs Cornely's, for five guineas, seven of Bach's, seven of Cocchi's and seven of Abel's. We approve the place so much, that both your father and I have subscribed.'(16) The excellent reputation of Carlisle House at this period was mentioned by Lord Barrington in a letter to the Earl of Buckinghamshire dated 17 December 1764: 'Mrs Cornelys has made Carlisle House the most elegant place of public entertainment that ever was in this, or perhaps any country'.(17) With this level of aristocratic approval, Carlisle House would have seemed an excellent prospect for the Mozarts on their return to London.
It is certainly possible that for the reasons given by Zaslaw the Mozarts did appear in one or more of these concerts, but it is also worth taking into account the possibility that they did not. In a mysterious passage in his letter of 19 March, Leopold expressed disappointment at the sum of 130 guineas taken at his concert on 21 February and hinted that he was aware of the reason why the public was not there in larger numbers. He referred cryptically to a 'proposition' which, after several sleepless nights, he had felt obliged to decline, giving as his reason concern for the moral welfare of the children: 'I will not bring up my children in such a dangerous place (where the majority of the inhabitants have no religion and where one only has evil examples before one)'.(18) This has often (and reasonably) been interpreted as an expression of Leopold's general distaste at the prospect of bringing up his children in Protestant England, but, given the context, it is also possible that the 'proposition' may have been some kind of deal for a series of appearances at Carlisle House and that, lucrative though the outcome might well have been, the reputation of Mrs Cornelys herself - she had already acknowledged an illegitimate child by Casanova - was more than the solicitous Leopold could stomach. The Bach-Abel series at Carlisle House - Cocchi having already given his concerts or else having dropped out of the plan altogether - began on 23 January, with further concerts on 30 January, 6, 13, 21 (apparently instead of the previous day, which was Ash Wednesday) and 27 February, and 6, 13, 20 and 27 March. The clash on 21 February might well have had the effect of depressing the audience at the Mozarts' concert, even though the start was timed for 6 p.m., 'which will not hinder the Nobility and Gentry from meeting in other assemblies the same evening'.(19)
(May 01, 1995 | Woodfield, Ian)

(Also see The Mozart family: four lives in a social context by Ruth Halliwell)

Will return on the subject later on today.

[Musicology]

You flit from subject to subject never once admitting you have been mistaken on them. The Mozarts certainly met Abel and JC Bach. So you now begin a third subject. G. Cocchi. Yet another person who is specifically mentioned by name in the Mozart family literature ! This is getting silly.

You say Leopold Mozart 'never met Cocchi'. But, once again, the documents suggest very differently. Don't they ? As for Cornelys, she had arranged for Cocchi to be in charge of a series of concerts at Carlisle House, Soho Square in that same year of 1764, followed the year later by none other than the same JC Bach and Abel !! The very men you believe the Mozarts never met !! This is getting ridiculous. So the Mozarts are in London many months. All 3 men whom you say the Mozarts never met are mentioned by name. In the Mozart literature. And Yanni says the opposite.

It is well known the London concert series for the years 1764 and 1765 were notoriously unreliable at the Cornelys establishment. The fact is, however, Leopold and Wolfgang Mozart met all three of them - JC Bach, Abel and Cocchi in London, in 1764. The Mozarts were in London many months and all three are specifically refered to in the Mozart literature of the time. This is plain fact. The question of which concerts took place and which did not is quite different.

I really do not know what you are trying to achieve here. Here (once again) is a document by Leopold Mozart showing musicians specifically named by him (with others on other pages) in 1764 London. Including G. Cocchi -

Mr: Neubauer. Claviermacher

in Litch Field Street S. Anns. Soho. near Newport

Market.

Mr: Braillard. Traiteur in Cecil Cour.

Mr: Braillard, Tailleur in Castel Street, near Pons, Coffee House.

Milord Thanet, Grosvenor square.

Mr: Bertrand, Kaufmann von Lyon.

Maestro Cocchi.

Madame Cornelys, in Soho square.

Mr: Eiffert, Hautboist.

Mr: Agos, Violinist.

Mr: Scola, Violoncellist.

Mr: Simon Berard, chez Mr: Delon in Bell'alley in

the City.

M: Hamilton in Kings Mews, itzt Gesandter in Neapel.

M: Pierre Laprimaudaye, der Schwiegersohn von Mr: Teissier.

Mr: Otley, ein Mann, der in Westindien Plantagen

hat und öfters auf ein Jahr dahin gehet.

Lady Effingham, in St: James Place.

Mr: Leone, ein guter Mandolinspieler.

Sigr: Manzuoli. Sigr. Ciprandi.

Sigra. Scotti. Sigr. Podarini.

Sigr: Tenducci. Sigr. Degardino.

http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Mozart,+Leopold/Reiseaufzeichnungen+1763-1771/2.+Leopold+Mozarts+Reise-Aufzeichnungen+1763-1771/Seite+35+-+Tafel+14?hl=leopold+mozart+cocchi

//

What, exactly, is the point of this Yanni ?

Sometimes we see more by looking away.

J.S. Bach
Mass in B Minor
Kyrie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd_M7dQGPkI&feature=related

//

[yanni]

Why should the simple fact that I agree to the conclusions of Mr Ian Woodfield, produce such a torrent of empty words?

You'll see "the point" soon enough.

[Musicology]

I am not sure where you are in agreement with Ian Woodfield. He says many things. The fact is that the documentary evidence is not overturned by anything you have said or produced. We should stop treating conversation as a lost art. It is not the unfolding of the last mysteries of Fatima. It's a straight comparison of considered opinions and the reasons for us having them.

Here is something - argue with that !!

Quoniam tu solus sanctus/Cum Sancto Spiritu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpvJAnoVN9Y&feature=fvst




Why should the simple fact that I agree to the conclusions of Mr Ian Woodfield, produce such a torrent of empty words?

You'll see "the point" soon enough.

[yanni]

The only "documentary evidence" available is someone's piece of paper, undated, written long after the Mozarts left London, which furthermore speaks only of "intentions" to meet certain people. It may even be early 1764 even if Woodfield places it to "about October 1764".

Based on other evidence the conclusion is the "well connected" Mozarts did not do well in London other than their early court performances.

No evidence exists documenting the presence of any of the three "contacts" after that and until the Mozarts departed.

[Musicology]

Why use 'documentary evidence' instead of documentary evidence ? It must be because these documents are showing the opposite to what you wish them to say. Why would Leopold Mozart write the name of a particular oboe player on that same record unless it relates to him meeting a particular oboe player, in London, during their visit ? Why not read the document yourself ? Isn't it the least you can do ?

As for saying the Mozarts did not do well in London, well, yes, of course. It was all 'stage managed' from the very beginning. Of course it was. The reason why the London concert timings are so vague is because, as usual, the Mozart story needs to be padded with the names of fraternity members and elitists helping to manufacture the story of his amazing musical 'career'. This is not unusual. It's typical. It is true of virtually every year of Mozart's public career, even during his final decade in Vienna. On paper it looks impressive. In reality it's simply name dropping with little, if any real substance. These people really existed. Mozart was simply the Manchurian candidate of the time. Like others before him. The music attributed to him came through this vast network. So also the hyperbole, the testimonials and the usual eulogies.

K.F. Abel
Symphony Op. 17 No. 1
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGiN8GslL5I&feature=related

J.C. Bach
Flute Concerto in D Major
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKNc_1ZaE0Y&feature=related



The only "documentary evidence" available is someone's piece of paper, undated, written by someone long after the Mozarts left London which, furthermore speaks only of "intentions" to meet certain people. It may even be early 1764 even if Woodfield places it to "about October 1764".

Based on other evidence the conclusion is the Mozarts did not do well in London apart from their early court performances.

No evidence exists documenting the presence of any of the three "contacts" after that and until the Mozarts departed.

Abel and JC Bach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQiCJx4hS2k&feature=related

Today had call from a colleague (conductor Agostino Taboga of Italy) who has examined an almost unknown musical score of the opera 'Oberon' by Paul Wranitsky - premiered the year before 'The Magic Flute'.

We have known for some time that numerous excerpts in this opera (which has never been recorded and almost never performed since the 18th century) is remarkably similar to music in numerous parts of 'Mozart's' later opera. But what was unusual is the library which holds this 18th century copy is the Estense Library in Modena, Italy (where music archives of Bonn Chapel came in the early 19th century). Here is clear proof this very musical score was used in Bonn during Mozart's lifetime. The third proof musicians associated with Bonn played a role in the final form of that 'Mozart' opera of the following year. The same was true of virtually all 'Mozart' operas of his mature years.

[yanni]

"documentary evidence" was used to indicate how unreliable sources truly are!

Here are some further "facts":

On February 24th(or the 29th), 1764 JCBach's La Galatea premiered at KT
On January 26th,1765, Gluck's Adriano in Syria " "
On Dec 3rd, 1765 Cocchi's La Clemenza di Tito "

(Michael Burden's "Metastasio on the British Stage 1728-1840")

More facts?

On 29th Febr 1764 The Public Advertiser announced a joint concert by Abel and JCBach (no concert date mentioned)-Buildings for music: the architect, the musician and the listener from the ... by Michael Forsyth.

Mozarts from Paris arrive London 23 April 1764

Grimm's letter to Ernst Ludwig of Saxe-Gotha dated 13 December 1764

Les Concerts Bach-Abel, 10 à 15 concerts par an, sont inaugurés le 23 janvier 1765

A biographical Dictionary of Actors, volume 14, page 394 on Tenducci reads:

"On 26 January 1765 he sang the title role in the first performance of JCBach's "Adriano in Syria".

Considering Gluck was in Vienna at the time (Il Telemaco, ossia L'isola di Circe (30.1.1765 Wien B) )) we may rather safely conclude that

a)"A" JCBach* conducted "Adriano in Syria" January 1765.
b)Leopold Mozart's zeno.org list refering to "Maestro Cochi" and including many performers (including Tenducci) and instrument players refers to this performance (Tenducci left London for Dublin in the summer of 1765 to get married)
c)Leopold Mozart's as well as Michael Burden's sources are "Documentary" indeed and so are the January 1765 "Abel-Bach" concerts.
d)Cocchi was absent Febr 1764 to Dec 1765.
e)A systematic cover up was -and still is- attempted to cover Cocchi's absence from London as per d above, for reasons that will be soon explained thru a timeline.

PS Still more facts? Metastasio's list of letters at http://publish.uwo.ca/~metastas/correspondence/lettero-v.html does not include any letters to Cocchi or any other of his aliases, except Hasse (still with a question mark in my list)! Even Chastellux is ommited!

*Nov 2, 1756 Johann Christoph Bach (53) dies (son of Johann Christoph Bach 1671-1721)

[Musicology]

Yanni,

We can only know a thing by what it does. We can then predict what it and other things around it will do. The surest way is to examine what we know to be true. To look away from everything else. Because everything is in relation to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpvJAnoVN9Y&feature=fvst

I wish you every success with your research.

Best wishes

Robert

[yanni]

Deep in philosophical considerations as you are, you'll propably won't be interested to tell us a thing or two on Handel's will executor, George Amyand:

On 9 August 1764, he was created a Baronet, of Moccas Court, in the County of Hereford.He died in 1766, his title taken by his son George. Was involved in The Russian Company and the East Indian Company.

(Strange name "Amyand", it propably originates from "amiantho"* ie asbestos:
As early as 1720, chrysotile asbestos was commercially mined in the Urals Region of Russia along the Tagyl River in the Middle Urals. The silky mineral fi bers were woven into cloth to fabricate aprons, gloves, and caps for the high-temperature shops of the eighteenth-century metallurgical plants that were common in the Urals. In 1722, a sample of the asbestos cloth was presented to Peter the Great (Kashansky, 1999).)

*"Ab amiantho" was Baron Stroganov's code name in the brotherhood of Strict Observance.


Yanni,

We can only know a thing by what it does. We can then predict what it and other things around it will do. The surest way is to examine what we know to be true. To look away from everything else. Because everything is in relation to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpvJAnoVN9Y&feature=fvst

I wish you every success with your research.

Best wishes

Robert

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

Associations between the life and career of the iconic G.F. Handel and the East India Company (British Empire) are of course pure coincidence. :smile5: As we see here with George Amyand.

I will send you a PM.

Regards





Deep in philosophical considerations as you are, you'll propably won't be interested to tell us a thing or two on Handel's will executor, George Amyand:

On 9 August 1764, he was created a Baronet, of Moccas Court, in the County of Hereford.He died in 1766, his title taken by his son George. Was involved in The Russian Company and the East Indian Company.

(Strange name "Amyand", it propably originates from "amiantho"* ie asbestos:
As early as 1720, chrysotile asbestos was commercially mined in the Urals Region of Russia along the Tagyl River in the Middle Urals. The silky mineral fi bers were woven into cloth to fabricate aprons, gloves, and caps for the high-temperature shops of the eighteenth-century metallurgical plants that were common in the Urals. In 1722, a sample of the asbestos cloth was presented to Peter the Great (Kashansky, 1999).)

*"Ab amiantho" was Baron Stroganov's code name in the brotherhood of Strict Observance.

[yanni]

Asbestos was not available in West Indies at the time and as such it was a monopoly and there was great demand in ironworks/ arms manufacture (asbestos cloth aprons, gloves etc). They mined it from the Urals and had it shipped over from Saint Petersburg.

The date of George Amyand baronet creation is quite significant.

He seems to have cooperated with Handel/Bach for quite sometime (before 1750 anyway).

[Musicology]

I have not looked at Amyand before. But I will do it now. Yes, there were numerous links between the British aristocracy and the careers of composers in continental Europe. I have seen no connection between Amyand and Handel and/or Bach. But will post what I find.




Asbestos was not available in West Indies at the time and as such it was a monopoly and there was great demand in ironworks/ arms manufacture (asbestos cloth aprons, gloves etc). They mined it from the Urals and had it shipped over from Saint Petersburg.

The date of George Amyand baronet creation is quite significant.

He seems to have cooperated with Handel/Bach for quite sometime (before 1750 anyway).

[yanni]

When you do, bear in mind that "ab Amiantho"/baron "Alexander Stroganov" has already been clearly identified as baron* "Friedrich Melchior Grimm" and "Comte de Saint Germain". (Thus solving the minor matter of "Muslivecek", "Rosetti", "Gluck" identities thru Muslivecek's November 1773 staging of "Gluck's" Iphigenia: In Saint Petersburg.)

*as from 1771 by Kaiser Joseph II

[Musicology]

Very interesting family, the 'Amyand' family. Here are some loose notes I've made on them yesterday - (and I am wondering if this family were once known as 'Hammond'. If so it gets really interesting).

1748 Chamberhouse Manor- estate was purchased by George Amyand, (a well-connected merchant who had been created a baronet in 1764). He built Crookham House on part of the property, and Chamberhouse Farm on the site of the old manor house. His son and heir, another Sir George, adopted the name Cornewall after marrying an heiress of that name in 1771, and moved to her house, Moccas, in Herefordshire.

One John Amyand in 1778 was a British government supplier to the Army during the American War of Independence

Banking account details survive of one John Amyand with Benson and Co dated 1777 (probably the same)

Claudius Amyand was Receiver-General of Rates for London and Westminster. Date ? At this time his affairs were dealt with by John Amyand. Claudius Amyand was brother to the knighted George Amyand.

A bond was issued to King George by John Amyand of £15,000 in July of 1773

In 1779 John Amyand (above) was being described as ‘City of London, merchant with Isaac Osborne of the same, merchant, both trading as Amyand and Co.

2nd Baronet and member of Parliament Sir George Amyand Cornewall (1748-1819)

On 26th June 1753 - In a letter from A. Castres in Lisbon to C. Amyand in London - a detailed account of one Carvalho * discussing local reactions to the Jewish Bill in Parliament, and his evaluation of reasons for the opposition to it among the merchants trading to Portugal at London and Lisbon.

Surviving Letter of 4th November 1752 from E. Hay in Lisbon to C. Amyand.

1751 letter from office of the Commissaries to Amyand who was at the time employed as Under-secretary, Southern Province, France.

1752 George Amyand - noted as a London supplier of hemp to the Royal Navy.

1753 Will of Mary Amyand, widow of Claudias Amyand

1740 Claudius Amyand, Principal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King

1753 A. Castres to C. Amyand. Lisbon. Some members of the East India have admitted illegal practices and applied through Carvalho * for pardon from the king

1694 Presentment of the homage at a court of survey, for the manors of Grove, Bredwardine and Radnor. 1684. - Bill of costs for a fine of Henry Cornewall esq. suggesting Amyand must take the name of Cornewall only, immediately after his marriage.

1767 Estate of the late Sir George Amyand including details of an account with Amyand, Rucker and Siebal, and with bankers Amyand, Staples & co

1758 Settlement and associated papers prior to the marriage between the Rev. Thomas Amyand and Frances Rider reference Bank of England stock - held at Norfolk Record Office

Upon the death of George, 6th earl of Northampton in 1758, his widow Frances became lady of the manor. In 1761 she married Claudius Amyand who is named as lord from 1762-65.

1724 Records of the Moccas Estate - Surviving Deed between Claudius Amyand and Sir John Frederick

1764 Surviving Account of Sir George Amyand of London, Bart, for expenses of maintaining 30 foot soldiers in the Kingdom of Ireland.. [Herefordshire Record Office

1766 Will of Sir George Amyand Carshalton, Surrey . Will of Sir George Amyand Carshalton, Surrey

1725 Will of one Auguste Amyand Wine Merchant Saint James's, Middlesex . Will of Auguste Amyand Wine Merchant Saint James's, Middlesex

1730 Will of Daniel Amyand Clerk Saint Martin in the Fields, Middlesex . Will of Daniel Amyand Clerk Saint Martin in the Fields, Middlesex

1733 Rent accounts kept by Joshua Spyers [agent for George Amyand],

and the earliest reference I can find -

Legal charges "laid out by Richard Haymonde for ye towne": Chancery, Exchequer, Star Chamber, Crown Office, Tower of London, trial of Amyand v. Bawden, 41 Elizabeth - 43 Elizabeth - (Include "searching in ye tower howe the town of Penzance shoulde be created a Borough towne wheather we might fynde oute any thing for our Porte"; "for searching for or olde charter in the Rolles for a coppye thereof" -

//

Note - An Amyand Park is still located in Twickenham south west London (close to where we know JC Bach lived for some time).

///

Reference to G.F. Handel - in the diary of Countess of Shaftsbury is an entry -

13 March 1753: I went last Friday to the opera Alexander's Feast, but it was such a melancholy pleasure as drew tears of sorrow to see the great tunehappy Handel dejected, wan and dark sitting nearby, not playing on the harpsichord, and to think how his light has been spent by being overply'd in musicks cause.

///

William C. Smith in a music journal article of 1953, 'Did Amyand have a house where Handel was accustomed to stay during his final years ?.''''" (He did have a seat in Carshalton, Surrey, 25 miles northwest from Tubridge Wells.') The question makes sense in light of Charles Burney's statement that 'during the last years of his life, he [Handel] constantly attended public prayers, twice a day, winter and summer, both in London and at Tunbridge Wells.''' Tunbridge Wells did have a sizeable chapel during Handel's lifetime, used since 1678 that offered daily services, and Handel's name even appears in its subscription list for the year 1755." This matches another (William Coxe's) report of an episodic visit of the composer and John Christopher Smith, Sr. to Tunbridge Wells 'about four years before Handel's death.''

All things considered, this is certainly a major family with close association to continental Europe and to the culture of the time. The connection with Handel is clear. So are the links his family had. He moved in the same circles as 'managers' of various composers of that time. I've no doubt Yanni that this family were connected with Handel's career. All the evidence says so.

Yanni,

I am very interested to know who * Carvalho * was refered to above. Any idea ? I have come across this name various times in connection with events as late as 1777/8. As for asbestos, I had no idea that it was widely used in antiquity. But your reference is interesting.

As for reference to things from Russia, the upper reaches of the Kama and Chusovaya in the Middle Urals were (I've just read) still unexplored in the late 16th century as well as parts of Transuralia that were still held by the Siberian Khanate and these were granted to the Stroganovs by several decrees of the tsar in 1558-1574.

Gerald Finzi (1901-56)
Eclogue for Piano and Strings
Op.10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIS6mmvtu2k&feature=related

R



When you do, bear in mind that "ab Amiantho"/baron "Alexander Stroganov" has already been clearly identified as baron* "Friedrich Melchior Grimm" and "Comte de Saint Germain". (Thus solving the minor matter of "Muslivecek", "Rosetti", "Gluck" identities thru Muslivecek's November 1773 staging of "Gluck's" Iphigenia: In Saint Petersburg.)

*as from 1771 by Kaiser Joseph II

[yanni]

Having spend the better part of Sunday:

There are many indications leading to the conclusion that "Dr Claude Amyand" was an alias of Dr Antonio Cocchi, Benevento, 3 agosto 1695 – Firenze, 1º gennaio 1758 (also known in England as Anthony Cosein, Cousein, and Cosijn* who sold a Rembrand to Handel early 1750).

Many interesting side aspects result from this revelation that must be also examined.

My next post on the matter tomorrow.

Regards.

PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebasti%C3%A3o_Jos%C3%A9_de_Carvalho_e_Melo,_Marqu is_of_Pombal
1757 The Portuguese Secretary of State, Sebastião José de Carvalho e Mello (the later Marquis de Pombal), called the French military “intolerably arrogant,abusing the laws of hospitality”.


*Feb 6th Anthony Cosein’s sale http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1750.htm
Joseph Goupy and George Frideric Handel: From Professional ... - by ET Harris - 2008

Handel bought a painting attributed to Rembrandt),43 and Sir William Morice (whose ... ments Cosein, Cousein, and Cosijn. ...caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/hlq.2008.71.3.397

[yanni]

Here is a summary of re evidence:

Besides their common profession (both surgeons, pioneers in inoculation), both highly esteemed and trusted by European royalty, both sharing the same acquaintances (such as Algarotti-Montagu-abbe Galiani-Philip Mazzei-R.Mead etc etc) , both librarians (Cocchi looking after the sale of Micheli library 1737, Claudius jr(??) appointed librarian to the King’s Cottonian 1745*), both obviously well aquainted with the royal musicians (librarians-pages) of previous posts (Gioachino Cocchi, JCBach, Nicolay, comte de Saint Germain and Gluck),

.....the main proof they were the same person are their complimentary timelines with Dr Claudius in England till 1723, Cocchi appearing shortly in Mugello...

dopo un lungo giro in Inghilterra tornando al paese natio accolto in trionfo http://www.ilfilo.net/massmug0908.htm

...to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1736 to Florence, then back in London 1736 via France (where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London sometime before 1740 when Claudius Amyand was appointed Princiipal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King, only to die that very same year according to The Cambridge History of Medicine, his place next to the King taken by his alleged son Claudius Amyand jr (born the same year- 1818- as Thomas Amyand who however seems to be a different person than Thomas-Hans (1728 born Thomas Hans AMYAND c.15 May. Claudius AMYAND/Mary RABACHE, St.Anne. )

And there is of course Alexander S.Stroganov and his asbestos mine in the Urals supplying, as George Amyand, - noted as a London supplier of hemp to -the Royal Navy in 1752.

*Within days of Gluck/Saint Germain's release (after arrest for spying), 8 December 1745.

[Musicology]

Claudius Amyand

He described himself as “of St Martin in the Fields” in his will (Prob 11/703, 9 July 1740). He does not appear to have had direct connection with the area ofTwickenham, but his descendants lent the family name to a house, a road (Amyand Park Road), a row of cottages (Amyand Cottages) and a Baptist Chapel (Amyand Park Chapel) there. Strafford Road nearby was known as Amyand Road until 1878.

Claudius Amyand was officially the son of George, ‘of a Huguenot family from Mornac in Xaitonge, France‘, was naturalised at Westminster on 9 September 1698. He became a surgeon at St George’s Hospital in London, served with the army in Flanders during the War of the Spanish Succession and was appointed Sergeant-Surgeon (Surgeon in Ordinary) to George I in 1715, a post he held subsequently under George II for the rest of his life.

As a surgeon he is remembered for performing the first successful appendicectomy, in 1735, on an 11 year old boy whose appendix was perforated by a pin which he must have swallowed. He also lent his name to a rare condition known as Amyand’s hernia, a rare form of inguinal hernia which occurs when the appendix enters and becomes contained in the hernia. In 1722 he carried out the vaccination of Princess Caroline's children. Lady Mary Wortley Montagu had interested Caroline, Princess of Wales, in the procedure: she arranged the famous experiment on prisoners in Newgate Gaol before permitting the treatment for her children.

Amyand married Mary Rabache on 6 November 1717 at St Benet Paul’s Wharf, London and they had six daughters and three sons, Claudius, George, and Thomas. Claudius (1718-74) became Keeper of the King's (Cottonian) Library in 1745 and in 1747 entered Parliament as M.P. for Tregony in Cornwall, holding the seat until 1754. From 1754 until 1756 he was M.P. for Sandwich. A supporter of the Duke of Newcastle, he became his Under-secretary of State, a post which he held under successive administrations until 1756. On 26th November 1761, he married Frances, widow of George Compton, 6th Earl of Northampton, so becoming Lord of the Manor of Long Sutton. He is noted as a resident of West Sheen in Surrey. His portrait was painted by Thomas Gainsborough.

Amyand’s second son, George (1720-66), was the Member of Parliament for Barnstaple between 1754 and 1766, an assistant to the Russia Company in 1756, became a director of the East India Company in 1762 and was created a Baronet in 1764. His daughter, Anna Maria married Sir Gilbert Elliot, 1st Earl of Minto. His son, George changed his name to Cornewall, becoming the 2nd Baronet of that name.

///

Also -

1752 - Letter G. Crowle in Portugal to C. Amyand. Refers to visits from the Lord-Proprietor and his Governor of the island of Principe, with the possibility of clandestine British slave-trade there.

1758 - Letter from Munchausen to West informing him of the commission charged by Messrs. Magens and Amyand on bills of exchange. And on forces in Germany: Munchausen to West informing him of commission charged by Messrs. Magens and Amyand on bills of exchange.

/

July 1758 - HM Treasury - Memo reference forces in Germany: - to Lord Newcastle giving details of the proposals for remitting money to Germany by Messrs. Magens and Amyand, Mr. Gore, Mr. Touchet, and Messrs. Claremont and Linwood.

//

1763 - Extract from 'Paris Gazette', casting doubts on the solvency of Amyand's company.
//

1766 - Treasury Memo of Sir George Amyand and others, requesting General Luckner's claim be dealt with in Germany of papers that had been presented to them in January 1764. (Nikolaus, Count Luckner (* 12 January 1722 - 4 January 1794 in Paris) was a German in French service who rose to become a Marshal of France. (His name is spelled Nicolas in French, Nikolaus in German). Luckner grew up in Cham, in eastern Bavaria and received his early education from the Jesuits in Passau

/

And now - :smile5:

Partita 1
Gigue
Rosalyn Tureck (1961) - American pianist and harpsichordist - specially associated with the work of J.S. Bach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klDQLKZ5-vc&feature=related

[yanni]

August 1st, 1758: George Amyand, Magen, Blackwell amd Barton are trustees to a loan of 200000 pounds to George II. (Amyand participating with 15000 pounds).
(The London magazine, or, Gentleman's monthly intelligencer, Vol 27 by Isaac Kimber,Edward Kimber.)

My notes on Amyand family are some seven A4 pages, Robert, and the only reason I quoted the above is to highlight the fact that George Amyand, elder son of Dr Claudius, born 26 September 1720, was extremely wealthy already, long before his marriage to the Cornewalls (linked to Lord Cornwallis??).

Your post does nothing, like supplying contradictory evidence ie, to my summary and conclusions above and the main question remains who of the two, George or Claudius jr, are Gioachino Cocchi, bearing in mind that Dr Claudius did not die in 1740.

Regards.

PS The first appendectomy took place 1736 in France! http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/shakers/timeline/

[Musicology]

I have not supplied contradictory evidence to your idea. Nor did I try to. I have supplied instead various references to that family. Please summarise your idea on the relevance of Amyand for all of us, so we can have a clear record of what you are saying.

You seem to be saying either (and/or) George or Claudius Amyand were none other than G. Cocchi. Although (at the same time) you believe one or either of these same Amyrands was a Russian nobleman. Thus (unless I am mistaken) you believe G. Cocchi was a Russian nobleman - possibly Baron Stroganov ? Unless I am confused ?? If, however, Baron Stroganov was actually Baron Grimm, then, I confess, the aliases are again starting to confuse me. We await your next post with interest.

Regards



August 1st, 1758: George Amyand, Magen, Blackwell amd Barton are trustees to a loan of 200000 pounds to George II. (Amaynd participating with 15000 pounds).
(The London magazine, or, Gentleman's monthly intelligencer, Vol 27 by Isaac Kimber,Edward Kimber.)

My notes on Amyand family are some seven A4 pages, Robert, and the only reason I quoted the above is to highlight the fact that George Amyand, elder son of Dr Claudius, born 26 September 1720, was extremely welathy already, long before his marriage to the Cornewalls (linked to Lord Cornwallis??).

Your post does nothing, like supplying contradictory evidence ie, to my summary and conclusions above and the main question remains who of the two, George or Claudius jr, are Gioachino Cocchi, bearing in mind that Dr Claudius did not die in 1740.

Regards.

PS The first appendectomy took place 1736 in France! http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/shakers/timeline/