The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[yanni]

In view of my own links to the accused, I let other "victims"-"judges" draw conclusions, limiting* my role to presentation of facts.

Such as:

Claudius Amyand, 1718-1774, junior, the Librarian, if that’s the word for it, became Keeper of the King’s Library (the Cottonian) in 1745. In 1750 he was under-secretary of state.He was made a Commissioner of Customs in 1756 and his name remains in the list of commissioners until 1765** when he received the appointment of Receiver-General of the Land Tax for Middlesex, London and Westminster. What we learn of him as librarian is very little.

As I have mentioned, he was appointed Library Keeper in December 1745; according to the civil list accounts for 1763 he received a salary of £200 and £100 for the rent of a house. He is also shown as “Keeper of His Majesty’s Library called the Cotton” at £100 in 1748. John Brooke states: “Under King George II Claudius Amyand had been appointed Keeper of His Majesties Libraries at £200 a year. This was a nominal office (the King did not care for books and presented his library to the British Museum), and was used to provide retirement pay for a former under-secretary of state. King George III,who did care for books, appointed his own librarian and paid him a salary out of the Privy Purse, thus paying for two librarians and receiving service from only one.” It is clear that Amyand was the one who gave no library service and one can only speculate asto the thoughts of Maty and Rimius when they surveyed the ottonian for the British Museum in 1756 (as above)!

http://archive.ifla.org/IV/ifla69/papers/058e-Massil.pdf

Nov. 8, 1745 Royal letters patent by writ of Privy Seal. Claudius Amyand, Keeper of the King s Libraries within the kingdom of England, loco Richard Bentley (son of Richard Bentley, D.D.), who was thereto appointed by letters patent, dated Westminster, 1724–5. March 11: the said Richard Bentley, the son, having by an instrument under his hand dated 1745, Oct. 28, and duly enrolled in Chancery, surrendered the said office: all with the annuity or annual fee of 200l., payable quarterly.King's Warrant Book XXXVI. pp. 226–7.

From: 'Warrants for Minor Appointments: 1745', Calendar of Treasury Books and Papers, Volume 5: 1742-1745 (1903), pp. 837-848. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=92087 Date accessed: 11 October 2010.***

(Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.
St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole says
He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible.

"Gluck" was there at the time, "Cocchi" was still offlimits apparently, possibly due to Dr Claudius Cocchi's other marriage(s) in Prussia or Naples.


Regards.

*Minor exception to own rule allowed: It certainly looks like Cocchi/Amyand acted then just like an IMF director does today: Helping countries along their way to default (thus controlling them, often one against another-in Cocchi/Amyand's case only, naturally!).
**You never answered my question on Cornwallis-Cornewall, so I'll do it myself: Minor google search produced no link but did not expect to find any(other than a simultaneous 1761 appointment of both in his Majesty's administration). History's "best" parts are never made public. So I'll answer it indirectly only through Pietro Metastasio to the Chevalier de Chastellux, Vienna, 15 July 1756 :“Your Highness ... I have made every effort to restore music to its true role of serving the poetry by means of its powers of expression...”
***My compliments to the keeper of http://www.british-history.ac.uk. There is hope!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2gvqzXRU0



I have not supplied contradictory evidence to your idea. Nor did I try to. I have supplied instead various references to that family. Please summarise your idea on the relevance of Amyand for all of us, so we can have a clear record of what you are saying.

You seem to be saying either (and/or) George or Claudius Amyand were none other than G. Cocchi. Although (at the same time) you believe one or either of these same Amyrands was a Russian nobleman. Thus (unless I am mistaken) you believe G. Cocchi was a Russian nobleman - possibly Baron Stroganov ? Unless I am confused ?? If, however, Baron Stroganov was actually Baron Grimm, then, I confess, the aliases are again starting to confuse me. We await your next post with interest.

Regards

Minor improvement to timeline summary of post 247 above, courtesy of Handel/Bach:

Previous text: ....to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1736 to Florence, then back in London 1736 via France (where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London sometime....

Corrected : ....to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1734 to Florence to join the British Lodge there , then back to London January 31, 1735 (to be present undoubtably in The Annual Feast of the Sons of the Clergy, Feb8th-13th, and opera perfomances of Handel's Ariodante Feb 12th and Porpora's Oratorio, David, Feb 24th) stay there until, propably,February 1736*,then back to Florence for his nomination "lettore di Anatomia nello Studio Fiorentino" and the honour of carrying with remains of Galileo to the Basilica of Santa Croce, March 12th, 1736, then back to London (via France,where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti**, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London....

...early enough for Faramondo (HWV 39) [KT], January 3rd, 1738 and stay there and around until 1740, when Claudius Amyand was appointed Princiipal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King, only to die that very same year according to The Cambridge History of Medicine, his place next to the King taken by his alleged son Claudius Amyand jr (born the same year- 1818- as Thomas Amyand who however seems to be a different person than Thomas-Hans (1728 born Thomas Hans AMYAND c.15 May. Claudius AMYAND/Mary RABACHE, St.Anne. ) ) Allegedly!!!


Looks like Dr Claudius Amyand/Antonio Cocchi was extremely fond of Handel/Bach's music and most propably of Telemann's too!!

As for Handel himself , yes, he was absent from London the second half of 1737!

And

In the summer of 1741 Handel, depressed and in debt, began setting Charles Jennens' Biblical libretto to music at a breakneck speed.[2] Allegedly!!


http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1735.htm

*Handel's oratorio "Alexander's feast" premiered at the Covent Garden Theatre, London on 19 February 1736.
**Who, after joining the RS in 1736, publishes his "Newtonism for ladies" in Milan 1737.

:Angel_anim: of Music History

[Musicology]

I'm struggling to see the relevance of this Yanni. Claudius Amyrand, surgeon to the King of England is, you say Antonio Cocchi. Great. But Antonio Cocchi was a not a composer. He was a surgeon. The composer named Cocchi (Gioacchino Cocchi) died in 1796. Antonio Cocchi (1695-1758) was a different and earlier person. Yes ?

You write, 'It looks like Dr Claudius Amyand/Antonio Cocchi was extremely fond of Handel/Bach's music and most propably of Telemann's too!!''

Great !! I haven't seen any evidence of this. Do you have some ?

Antonio Cocchi (the surgeon) was connected to the highest levels of English society. We know this. It is not a secret. It has not been a secret for 250 years.

You wrote on an earlier post - (No.249) -

George or Claudius jr, are Gioachino Cocchi, bearing in mind that Dr Claudius did not die in 1740.

!!!


So, according to you, George or Claudius Amyand, are one and the same person as Antonio Cocchi and (later) G. Cocchi ?

I would be specially interested for evidence that Amyand was interested in the music of J.S. Bach and Handel.

As for Baron Stroganov, where does he fit in ???

Yours confusedly

Robert

[yanni]

Have you never heard of music's contribution to healing or of doctors-musicians, starting with "Apollo, Giver of Music & Medicine" (healingmusicenterprises.com/Apollo.html)?

One of Dr Amyand/Cocchi's sons, George or Claudius jr, is propably Gioachino Cocchi, where is the problem for you to understand and why do you then confuse the sons with their father?

To see "where Baron Stroganov fits in?" all you have to read my writings on him.

Try googling for "Stroganov-comte de Saint Germain-Rousseau"!

I am confusing you and music history is not?

That's strange!

[Musicology]

I have certainly heard of music's contribution to healing and of doctor/musicians. The confusion comes when you expect people to follow the aliases of your ideas.

There WAS a mafia controlling the cultural side of what we call the 'Enlightenment'. We both seem to agree about this fact. Don't we ? And yes, they (its members) did use aliases. We seem to both agree about that. In fact, this is why we are in conversation about it. We may even agree various Cocchis were involved in this process. Over generations. Which is what I have said all along. Isn't it ? In fact, the mafia which invented the career of W.A. Mozart included G. Cocchi. And I have said so from the very start. Haven't I ?

The confusion begins where you say -

One of Dr Amyand/Cocchi's sons, George or Claudius jr, is propably Gioachino Cocchi

OK, if one of Dr Amyand's sons is really the musician Gioachino Cocchi what was the relationship between Antonio Cocchi (surgeon) and the later Gioachino Cocchi (musician) ?? Do tell us. With some evidence.

I have also said from the start that Amyand may be an alias. I have no difficulty in this. The problem is where you say Gioachino Cocchi (composer) is 'probably' one of Dr Amyand's sons but cannot tell us which one. And nor can you tell us of the relationship between Antonio Cocchi and G. Cocchi.

Unless/until these things are clarified you cannot blame me or anyone else for thinking an entire class of aliases were controlling culture. And that music and musical achievement are a completely different subject. Which is my own view of things.

You seem to be confusing a cultural mafia with the good guys. The actual composers.

At least, that's how it reads to me.

It remains my position that the musical history conventionally given to us was made/published/invented by the very people you are researching. We should not confuse these two different things. They are distinct and separate. One is a pseudo-history and the other is the real. None of these people you are researching actually did anything. They were occultists and con-men of fraternities. Managing the cultural deception. Supported by elites. Who arranged to have manufactured (as I am continually saying) the bogus reputations of many 'great' composers.

But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach. They were as said so often involved in something else - in making the bogus careers of iconic men such as G.F. Handel, W.A. Mozart, J. Haydn and others.

If your position can be clarified with some firm statements on who was really who our conversation becomes more easy. But until we agree about these basic things we tend to confuse others. I don't want to confuse anyone. That is why I am asking you to clarify your statements. And if there is something you do not understand of my position, just ask it and I will happily provide it.

In a world of deception there has to be a real. And there really IS Yanni. There IS !!

Robert Schumann
Concerto in A Minor
3rd Movement
Soloist - Dinu Lipatti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BscnhydK9s8&feature=fvsr


Regards





Have you never heard of music's contribution to healing or of doctors-musicians, starting with "Apollo, Giver of Music & Medicine" (healingmusicenterprises.com/Apollo.html)?

One of Dr Amyand/Cocchi's sons, George or Claudius jr, is propably Gioachino Cocchi, where is the problem for you to understand and why do you then confuse the sons with their father?

To see "where Baron Stroganov fits in?" all you have to read my writings on him.

Try googling for "Stroganov-comte de Saint Germain-Rousseau"!

I am confusing you and music history is not?

That's strange!

[yanni]

But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach.

Haven't I?

You obviously forget my repeated references to JS's first "inventors", "Wieland" (Rousseau-Gioac.Cocchi) and Marpurg(another puzzle), Johann Sebastian Koch, JSBach's "choirprefect" (that's the basic role of Kappelmeister, isn't it?), G.Cocchi/Saint Germain/Giovannini's footprints on Mrs Bach's buchlein, Handel/Bach's 1741 first visit to Berlin* (while depressed, propably because his wife had been ill) etc etc.

What I did not openly say in previous is my conclusion , based on a multitude of indications all leading to the same end, that Handel/Bach and Dr Aymand/A.Cocchi were one and the same (Gioachino Cocchi/Gluck/Rousseau etc then-1750's-taking over the "healing process").

Now I did and you are wellcome to provide evidence to the contrary.

*Cocchi/Koch/Bach/Handel was in Berlin (August 9) because the laying of the foundation stone of the first Berlin Opera was celebrated, September 5th, on the former Cocceji Palais, 5, Unter den Linden, with the inscription:
FridericusII. Rex Borussorum Ludis Thaliae et Melpomenes Sororum Sacra Heac Fundamina.Ponit Anno MDCCXLI die quinto Septembris .

[Musicology]

No sooner is the water becoming clear than you muddy it again !

Yanni believes J.S. Bach, and G.F. Handel, and surgeon Dr Amyand, and the surgeon Antonio Cocchi were all the same person !!! A feat of social engineering and a cultural feat greater than BBC world service radio ?

Please (at the third time of asking) do you believe G. Cocchi was the son of the above Antonio Cocchi ? You appear to have ignored this question of mine. And without an answer I do not wish to go round and round in the spin dryer.

As for your 'proofs' concerning JS Bach, they are nothing of the kind.

You make the most unfounded and generalised statements. But the specifics are all missing. One line 'proofs' with no real evidence. And what, exactly, is the 'proof' Handel and Bach were the same man ? None whatsoever. Their lives and their entire musical output is totally different.

Try this Yanni. One teaspoon only. Realise that one of these (Bach and Handel) is a manufactured composer and the other is a real composer. Does that help ? Does this sound like Handel to you ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_L4cNHc&feature=related

Q. 'And, Robert, what do you consider your greatest achievement in musical research to be' ?

A. 'Sir, I consider my greatest achievement was to make Yanni listen to a Bach concerto'.






But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach.

Haven't I?

You obviously forget my repeated references to JS's first "inventors", "Wieland" (Rousseau-Gioac.Cocchi) and Marpurg(another puzzle), Johann Sebastian Koch, JSBach's "choirprefect" (that's the basic role of Kappelmeister, isn't it?), G.Cocchi/Saint Germain/Giovannini's footprints on Mrs Bach's buchlein, Handel/Bach's 1741 first visit to Berlin (while depressed) etc etc.

What I did not openly say in previous is my conclusion , based on a multitude of indications all leading to the same end, that Handel/Bach and Dr Aymand/A.Cocchi were one and the same (Gioachino Cocchi/Gluck/Rousseau etc then-1750's-taking over the "healing process").

Now I did and you are wellcome to provide evidence to the contrary.

[yanni]

Yes I do believe Gioachino Cocchi was closely related to Antonio Cocchi (married not just to Gaetana Debi, Orsola Piombanti and his -third-english wife), propably his son by a fourth "wife" in Prussia or Naples, but alternatively could have been a nephew, so what?

The contents of my previous have increased in the meantime, absorb them at your leisure and then try to prove me wrong!

Courage!

[Musicology]

OK, so you believe G. Cocchi was 'probably' closely related to Antonio Cocchi (and you give us the usual set of choices).

When I press you on this point you ask 'So what' ? The 'so what' is you simply do not know. And Yanni, not knowing of the real relationship between A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi 'knows' that J.S. Bach was G.F. Handel. And this is why people find your posts bewildering. You are literally swimming in a sea of probabilities. Why not start off with established facts ?

How about this one ? It is an established fact Antonio Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with the British government and with other governments of his time. And that G. Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with governments of his own time. Since they were both occultists with high level contacts with governments of their own times they were involved in the same occultism. A occultism which had great influence within those governments and in higher levels of society during their respective times. Whether they had three or twenty aliases.

And what, exactly, does that have to do with the history of music ? You never tell us. Because, Yanni, somebody had to write the music. And it was not written by A. Cocchi or G. Cocchi. Was it ?

This leads me to believe A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi were members of an occultist network whose influence was so great in the 18th century they were involved in overseeing the creation of false reputations of various men (including major composers and scientists) as part of their occultist careers.

Have I said this before ? Yes, I think I have.




Yes I do believe Gioachino Cocchi was closely related to Antonio Cocchi (married not just to Gaetana Debi, Orsola Piombanti and his english wife), propably his son by a fourth "wife" in Prussia or Naples, but alternatively could have been a nephew, so what?

The contents of my previous have increased in the meantime, absorb them at your leisure and then try to prove me wrong!

Courage!

[yanni]

When Handel/Bach/Amyand/A.Cocchi first visited Berlin August 1741 for the founding of the Berlin Opera, Samuel Cocceji/Koch had returned from Silesia and was on his way to become Reichchancellor and Christian Johann Kochius was appointed "Oberhoffprediger am Dom" ( ie Kaiser Fritz wanted to keep his new roman catholic subjects happy!)

Instead of the usual silly noises, Robert , why don't you finally accept my repeated offer to challenge my timeline on Handel/Bach, now enriched with Dr C.Amyand/A.Cocchi?

All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

Courage!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thank you for inviting me to take up your 'poisoned chalice' (oops, extravagant offer !) of showing that G.F. Handel/J.S. Bach/Amyrand and Antonio Cocchi were not always in the same place at the same time. I accept your offer. But before I post to show it is nonsense you might consider the following -

I have a friend who grows potatoes and carrots, onions and cabbages. No matter how often he plants cabbages they attract butterflies. And if he grows beetroots they always seem to attract ants. He is careful against this of course but the same thing always happens.

I think we can say the same thing of human history. That wherever there is something worthy taking place we will find things that are unworthy. One could visit a coronation and find notices warning us against pickpockets, for example. Wherever there is reality we will find things not real. So I'm not surprised Cocchis, and Casanovas, and Amyrands and Barons, Counts, Popes, Cardinals, etc. are often extremely interested and have their own people actively pursuing their own agendas when other events more worthy of our attention are happening.

The opening of the Berlin opera in August 1741 attracted many music lovers from all over Germany. And the Olympic Games in London in 2012 will no doubt attact millions from all over the world. The arrival of visitors to London during 2012 will not prove, however, that Yanni and myself are one and the same person. Not even if we are able to be proved present there. Nor will they prove Yanni, myself and other readers of this thread are one and the same person. Even if all are sufficiently interested in the subject to be present at the 2012 Olympic Games.

As to your view that J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel, Amyand (who has multiple personality disorder), and Cocchi (who also has multiple personality disorder) were one and the same person (and thus in one time and space always) I will answer you later. So we can see this to be one of your more extreme but harmless exaggerations.

Berlin Philharmonic Wind Soloists - Tango

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9baGZRil0&feature=related


Regards



When Handel/Bach/Amyand/A.Cocchi first visited Berlin August 1741 for the founding of the Berlin Opera, Samuel Cocceji/Koch had returned from Silesia and was on his way to become Reichchancellor and Christian Johann Kochius was appointed "Oberhoffprediger am Dom" ( ie Kaiser Fritz wanted to keep his new roman catholic subjects happy!)

Instead of the usual silly noises, Robert , why don't you finally accept my repeated offer to challenge my timeline on Handel/Bach, now enriched with Dr C.Amyand/A.Cocchi?

All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

Courage!

///

G.F. HANDEL

1707 -- G.F. Handel arrives in Italy
1710 -- Handel's first visit to London
1711 -- First London opera, Rinaldo
1712 -- Handel’s Second visit to London and remains

J.S. BACH

1710 - Birth of Bach's second child, Wilhelm Friedemann, born, 22nd November. (W.F. Bach was therefore conceived around 9 months earlier, in February of 1710, in Weimar).

//

1713 - JS Bach visits Weissenfels in February. Birth of his third and fourth children (twins), that same year - Johann Christoph and Maria Sophia, born 23rd February, and died, 23 February and around 13th March respectively. (Conceived around 9 months earlier). Bach competes for organist's post at Halle in December of that same year of 1713.

//

Clear ‘proof’ JS Bach and GF Handel must be the same man, yes ??

[yanni]

Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman):

Handel/Bach is on record as first visiting London sometime around November- December 1710, allowing him to father WH and several more children in Weimar, Feb 1710.

Same for the twins, born Feb, 1713, ie conceived June-July 1712:

He is on record, 1712, as Autumn : Receives permission from the Elector of Hanover to return to London "on condition that he return within a reasonable time." Early October : Returns to London for next opera season -- stays with "Mr. Andrews of Barn-Elms" (now Barnes, in Surrey)...

With regard to his (Bach's) 1713 dates (Febr./Weissenfels, Dec./Halle), there is nothing contradictory either: After Swiney's departure to Italy with the cash of Teseo's first performance Jan 10th, 1713, there is nothing on record indicating GFH stayed behind in London.He IS on record however as GFH is dismissed from Hanoverian post in May whereas on 28th December 1713 Queen Anne grants GFH a pension of £200 per annum.She is suffering from porfyria (dies 1 August 1714) and as such his recall to duty in London is on purely medical grounds, hence "Te deum", October, 1714, was staged only in the year!! http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm

Consequently, Dr Claudius/Handel/Bach/Cocchi/Amyand was appointed Sergeant-Surgeon (Surgeon in Ordinary) to George I in 1715.

Try harder next time, Sir Robert, else say goodbye to your Holy Grail!



///

G.F. HANDEL

1707 -- G.F. Handel arrives in Italy
1710 -- Handel's first visit to London
1711 -- First London opera, Rinaldo
1712 -- Handel’s Second visit to London and remains

J.S. BACH

1710 - Birth of Bach's second child, Wilhelm Friedemann, born, 22nd November. (W.F. Bach was therefore conceived around 9 months earlier, in February of 1710, in Weimar).

//

1713 - JS Bach visits Weissenfels in February. Birth of his third and fourth children (twins), that same year - Johann Christoph and Maria Sophia, born 23rd February, and died, 23 February and around 13th March respectively. (Conceived around 9 months earlier). Bach competes for organist's post at Halle in December of that same year of 1713.

//

Clear ‘proof’ JS Bach and GF Handel must be the same man, yes ??

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thank you for the suggestion I try harder to disprove your quartet theory.

I aim to disprove it with ever more simple (and not complicated) arguments. Since you are convinced 4 different men were one and the same man. I started doing so in my last post by examining only two of this imaginary 'quartet', J.S. Bach and G.F. Handel. It is not a good idea to multiply entities un-necessarily.

(Yanni will no doubt become more and more complicated in his arguments. But it does not matter which method of argument he decides to use).

Here is my second post. I will answer you in ever more simple ways while you will no doubt post in more complicated ways.

Let me begin by quoting the first sentence of your last post. Here is what you wrote - (and I will quote precisely) -

''Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman'')

In reply to which -

Yanni, do you not know human births occur around 9 months after conception ? Human births do not take several years. So your first sentence is really an irrelevance. Isn't it ? Nobody is saying GF Handel never had time to visit Weimer between 1707 and 1710. Are they ? Not I nor you. The issue is whether G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. If G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach he must surely have been in Weimar around 9 months before the birth of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. Yes ?

So your first sentence is meaningless. It is irrelevant.

We can ask, what evidence, if any, shows G.F. Handel was in Weimar around February of 1710 ?

I think you should also consider the following -

G.F.Handel came to London in 1710 and worked for the Hanover government during the transition period and directly for Queen Anne from 1712 onwards. Which is what I have always suggested. (That Handel's musical career was manufactured). Something I have said here numerous times. This view (of Handel being an agent for the court of Hanover in London and a fraud). It is (you surely agree) my view and is even consistent with what has been written by Handel's biographer Jonathan Keates. See here (bottom of the page Item 14) -

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eVOVwl_99mcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frideric_Handel+handel+1710+london&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

As said from the start, few things are real in the 'history of music'. But I encourage you in discovering what is real and what is fiction. Handel did NOT write the music of J.S. Bach. Nor did he even write 'his own'. But you may find this true quicker than we find your proofs of one man being 4 different men. Handel was recruited before he ever left Germany. He was a recruited man in Rome and in Venice. And he arrived in London as a recruited man. He remained a recruited man during his entire London career. That is my view.

[yanni]

To remind you of the challenge you accepted, here is what it looked like (my post #260) :

All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

So far you have failed!

[Musicology]

And your evidence GF Handel was in Weimar around February 1710 is what, precisely ?

Early in 1710 Handel left Italy
Spring of 1710 Handel arrives at the Court of Hanover
June 16th 1710 Handel is appointed Kapellmeister to George, Elector of Hanover (soon to be King of Britain)
September 1710 Handel leaves Hanover and arrives in London for the first time

Thus, if G.F. Handel is the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach (which the birth certificate refuses to say) he, GF Handel, must have been in Weimar between leaving Italy and him arriving in Hanover in the spring of that year of 1710. But there is no evidence GF Handel was in Weimar in 1710. This is a small problem of yours. But Yanni will produce evidence of this for us. Right Yanni ?

S. Taylor: '''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge, 1906/R)

Or, to put it another way -

‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after Handel had acquired a substantial number of more musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni. The same Cardinal Ottoboni who (with 4 other cardinals) had patronised Handel while he was in Rome and Venice.

And, of a similar kind -

Dionigi Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to GF Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though Handel did make a copy of it (now in GB-Lbl) and borrowed copiously from it in his Oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.

Etc etc etc.

We must therefore conclude the Milan composer Dionigi Erba (who died in 1730) was still another alias for G.F. Handel/aka J.S. Bach aka akakakakakakakaka, And now we have at least a 'quintet', yes ?

Have I really failed to make Yanni hear this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_L4cNHc&feature=related

Regards

R




To remind you of the challenge you accepted, here is what it looked like (my post #260) :

All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

So far you have failed!

[yanni]

Silly noises can't cover the sound of your crash.

Try one more, any date that suits you!

[Musicology]

While Yanni is still searching for some evidence of GF Handel being in Weimar in early 1710 (and of being the father of one of the children of JS Bach) here is a short musical interlude -

J.S. Bach
Fugue on a Theme in A Major by T. Albininoni
BWV 950

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU_tiVS06ao&feature=related


Silly noises can't cover the sound of your crash.

Try one more, any date that suits you!

[yanni]

Your higher chakras need urgent tuning!

And now some verses by a worthy bard seeking their music.

(One could also see it as the first ever poem praising usur..errrr... banking)


The Ghost by Charles Churchill

(extract on Amyand)


The independent Amyand came,

All burning with the sacred flame

Of liberty, which well he knows

On the great stock of slavery grows,

Like sparrow, who, deprived of mate

Snatch'd by the cruel hand of Fate,

From spray to spray no more will hop,

But sits alone on the house-top ;

Or like himself, when all alone

At Croydon, he was heard to groan.

Lifting both hands in the defence

Of interest, and common sense ;

Both hands, for as no other man

adopted and pursued his plan,

The left hand had been lonesome quite,

If he had not held up the right :

Apart he came, and fix'd his eyes

With rapture on a distant prize,

On which, in letters worthy note,

There, twenty thousand pounds, was Wrote.

False trap, for credit sapp'd is found

By getting twenty thousand pound

Nay, look not thus on me, and stare.

Doubting the certainty — to swear

In such a case I should he loath —

But Perry Gust may take his oath.
etc etchttp://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/charles-churchill/the-poetical-works-of-charles-churchill-volume-3-ruh/page-6-the-poetical-works-of-charles-churchill-volume-3-ruh.shtml

[Musicology]

J.S. Bach (1685-1750) fathered 20 children over 2 marriages. Can you please check your timeline for the life of G.F. Handel and name even one of these who may have been fathered by G.F. Handel ? Since the documentary record shows they were fathered by J.S. Bach. With a choice of 20 babies to choose from you can surely come up with a better result than last time, yes ?

In the meantime -

BWV 248
Sanfte soll mein Todeskummer
Fritz Wunderlich (Tenor)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO2tuSSisRA

[yanni]

Baron Dimsdale, a reputable doctor, expert inoculator and visitor of Russia, a quaker and a banker too, was one of Handel/Bach/Amyand/Cocchi children (or so it seems to me, anyway).

Pity Baron Thomas-Hans's biography* is hard to find, even if he was one of the founders of RBS. Must be buried somewhere** under their dusty archives.

http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki/Dimsdale%2C_Fowler%2C_Barnard_%26_Dimsdales%2C_Lon don%2C_1759-1891

I just love british poetry, btw, particularly that on musiciens-warmongering banksters-inoculators/spermdonnors-first socialists/liberators-new truth inventors- assasins!

On this respect, readers are kindly requested to contribute any verse available on Lord Cornwallis' friendhip with the marquis de Chastellux-Cornwall.

Much obliged!

*The barony had been conferred by Catherine the Great on Thomas Dimsdale, an ancestor, who had inoculated her son against smallpox. (see "Alexander S.Stroganov")

**The Dimsdale 18th century archives are incomplete and held at The National Westminster Bank ('Benjamin Collins and the provincial newspaper trade in the eighteenth century' by Christine Y. Ferdinand)

[Musicology]

J.S. Bach
Duet
Cantata
BWV 3/5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGq3JZlT_nc&feature=related


Baron Dimsdale, a reputable doctor, expert inoculator and visitor of Russia, a banker too, was one of Handel/Bach/Aymand/Cocchi children (or so it seems to me, anyway).

Pity Baron Thomas-Hans's biography* is hard to find, even if he was one of the founders of RBS. Must be buried somewhere under their dusty archives.

http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki/Dimsdale%2C_Fowler%2C_Barnard_%26_Dimsdales%2C_Lon don%2C_1759-1891

I just love british poetry, btw, particularly that on musiciens-warmongering banksters-inoculators/spermdonnors-first socialists/liberators-new truth inventors- assasins!

On this respect, readers are kindly requested to contribute any verse available on Lord Cornwallis' friendhip with the marquis de Chastellux-Cornwall.

Much obliged!

*The barony had been conferred by Catherine the Great on Thomas Dimsdale, an ancestor, who had inoculated her son against smallpox.

[yanni]

A lot of music that helps us experience, heal and release the spiritual kundalini energy of our 7 chakras is being created today; but Bach was there first! His Toccata in F is the most powerful and vivid musical experience of the chakras ever created, or that ever will be. It is also a key to all the esoteric mysteries: tarot, chakra system, kundalini, alchemy, astrology, kabbalah, sacred geometry and proportions, and more.

You may also try yogurt if yoga fails!

Coming back to Bach/Amyand/Handel/Cocchi:

He never really died in 1750,1740,1759 or 1758:

Maria Theresa had him chasing around for Vampires in Moravia around 1745-1760(allegedly), while also asking him to reform the Viennese medical system-taking it away from the jesuits-and to assume censorship control of Austria, till he finally died in 1772.

As Gerard van Swieten, he was of great service to her as her personal physician from earlier on (1736), apparently :

Praeterea censeo,vulvam sacratissime Majestatis,ante coitum diutius esse titiblandam

She then gave birth to some sixteen children!

Did he also treat her father, emperor Charles VI who died an early death, October 1740, perhaps poisoned by mushrooms?

Handel's slopy and flopy Imeneo may provide the answer, when examined together with Dr Claudius Amyand's sudden 1740 "dissappearance" to a better world.

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni,

Your last posts remind me of the scene in Kubrick's '2001 - A Space Odessy' in the sense that information (rather than answers to questions and discussions on their relevance) would resolve the question of whether G.F. Handel was father of the 20 children attributed to J.S. Bach. And not discussions on other diversionary issues. Still, we tried, right, Yanni ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwBmPiOmEGQ

[yanni]

Thank you for inviting me to take up your 'poisoned chalice' (oops, extravagant offer !) of showing that G.F. Handel/J.S. Bach/Amyrand and Antonio Cocchi were not always in the same place at the same time. I accept your offer.

apparently yogurt has failed to deliver, no kundalini has been released!

Have you tried Kellog's method?

[Musicology]

Yes, Yanni. I had Kellog's cornflakes this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A86eqvHXPk&feature=related

(Angela Hewitt lives in London. She has recently made some recordings of Bach transcriptions that are wonderful. Here is one of them).

[yanni]

Right Kellogg, wrong method, no kundalini.

Har, har, har, Wahe!
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=_4xl_4uhgaY&feature=related

[Musicology]

Anna Mailian
Sharakan

Manuscript Music of Ancient Armenia
c. 430 AD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0buDhyGSE

[GuyNic]

I have been so entertained by this discussion, that I decided to join this site. But I wanted to take a short, regressive step in the content of this thread to correct an error Yanni. In post #204 you state that....'Care in the detail is equally important to any art, the one of finding the "errors" of professional history writers and archivist-interpreters included. Such is the case with the following "family site", caring not for the detail but to "name" their relative "sources" of "misunderstanding" nevertheless:'.

I am sorry to say that the source you quote is inaccurate and that Frederick Nicolay was appointed Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte on the 5th September 1761 (source: Printed Lists, Royal Archives, Windsor), which makes the 10 year chronology (as well as the additional reference of poor Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay) correct.

All things considered however, I am enjoying the overall, conspirital tone and le Comte de Saint-Germain is just the icing on the cake! Oh, just to muddy the water further, did you know that le Marquis Jean de Nicolay (d.1737) was private tutor to Voltaire?

Who is Bach again??

[Emil Miller]

Before this thread becomes a tripartite discussion, wouldn't it be better if it were moved to the General Chat section rather than remain on this sub section?
This part of the Forum is for general discussion of music, films etc. whereas this thread deals with specific questions concerning the esoteric nature of certain Bach compositions and has produced a protracted correspondence that is probably of little or no interest to a majority of members. It doesn't seem appropriate for a forum that has been set up for broader discussion of the disciplines mentioned.

[MarkBastable]

Before this thread becomes a tripartite discussion, wouldn't it be better if it were moved to the General Chat section rather than remain on this sub section?
This part of the Forum is for general discussion of music, films etc. whereas this thread deals with specific questions concerning the esoteric nature of certain Bach compositions and has produced a protracted correspondence that is probably of little or no interest to a majority of members. It doesn't seem appropriate for a forum that has been set up for broader discussion of the disciplines mentioned.

You might be right. But it'd be interesting to see a definition of the line that, in this context, divides the specific from the general.

For instance, into which of those categories might the following threads fall?

Which is the most emotional form of musical expression?

Opera - is it absurd?

Operetta - is it opera for frivolous people?

Gilbert and Sullivan - inspired or irritating?

Are the lyrics of The Pirates of Penzance merely dazzlingly clever, or do they have any real depth?

What, actually, was the lot of a policeman in the latter half of the nineteenth century, and is it accurately reflected in the song?

Was W S Gilbert merely a front for Dickens writing lyrics for comic opera, which he liked to do in between knocking out chapters of Bleak House?

[yanni]

Ahaaaah, finally a "Nic."!

Why should I trust the Windsor Royal archives on the exact date of Frederick Nicolay's backstairs appointment and where then did Michael Kassler draw his "wrong" info from*?

Not that the issue (61 or 62) is that important really. He first came to London in 1736 and did accompany princess Charlotte to London in 1761 anyway (leaving him plenty of time for other matters 1761-62).

Otherwise I fully agree that ONE of THE issues is 1762 (my post 204 and previous on Frederic de Nicolay).

No, I was not aware of a Jean de Nicolay, tutor of Voltaire, feel free to introduce him to us.

Regards!

*A.Hyatt King is the answer, but...


I have been so entertained by this discussion, that I decided to join this site. But I wanted to take a short, regressive step in the content of this thread to correct an error Yanni. In post #204 you state that....'Care in the detail is equally important to any art, the one of finding the "errors" of professional history writers and archivist-interpreters included. Such is the case with the following "family site", caring not for the detail but to "name" their relative "sources" of "misunderstanding" nevertheless:'.

I am sorry to say that the source you quote is inaccurate and that Frederick Nicolay was appointed Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte on the 5th September 1761 (source: Printed Lists, Royal Archives, Windsor), which makes the 10 year chronology (as well as the additional reference of poor Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay) correct.

All things considered however, I am enjoying the overall, conspirital tone and le Comte de Saint-Germain is just the icing on the cake! Oh, just to muddy the water further, did you know that le Marquis Jean de Nicolay (d.1737) was private tutor to Voltaire?

Who is Bach again??

[Musicology]

Yanni has been asked (repeatedly) to prove his speculation that G. F. Handel was one and the same man as J.S. Bach. An idea so preposterous the documented birth of no less than 20 Bach children are not enough for him to provide a shred of evidence.

It is not that conversation has ended which gives it value but the fact that conversation (and evidence) form no part of Yanni's outlandish fairy stories.

I agree the nutritional value of such exchanges is now close to zero - as almost anyone can see. So that, in the end, some good has come of them, if only in the opposite way from what we hoped. Such ideas represent, to honest discussions of music and its history, the equivalent of the products of Monsanto or of Codex Alimentarius.

Regards

[MarkBastable]

Yanni has been asked (repeatedly) to prove his speculation that G. F. Handel was one and the same man as J.S. Bach. An idea so preposterous the documented birth of no less than 20 Bach children are not enough for him to provide a shred of evidence.


I have to say that, to the educated and neutral observer, Yanni's theory looks no more or less preposterous than Musicology's.

[GuyNic]

[QUOTE=yanni;967576]Ahaaaah, finally a "Nic"!

Why should I trust the Windsor Royal archives on the issue of Frederick Nicolay's backstairs appointment and where then did Michael Kassler draw his "wrong" info from?
1. You shouldn't and neither should I (but its all we have until a connection to the European Nicolays via Gaspard (or Caspar) De Nicolay - in Saxe-Gotha - can be established) and 2. Don't know Kassler's source, so I am as in the dark as you are.

Otherwise I fully agree that one of THE issues is 1762 (my post 204).
Noted

No, I was not aware of a Jean de Nicolay, tutor of Voltaire, feel free to introduce him to us.
Only a reference on the following site (http://gillesdubois.blogspot.com/2004/12/notice-historique-et-gnalogique-sur-la.html), but which I think (somewhere references the historical chronologies of BOISLILE (Arthur de). Histoire de la maison de Nicolay. Rédigée et publiée sous les auspices de M. le marquis de Nicolay. Nogent-le-Rotrou, 1873-1875 fort vol. gr. in-4, br)

Jean Nicolay fut tuteur de Voltaire. Nicolas Arouet, greffier à la Chambre des comptes et père de Voltaire, craignant qu'après sa mort ses biens ne fussent dissipés en vaines prodigalités, confia à son premier président la tutelle de ses deux fils et alla jusqu' à lui substituer leur héritage. Ce digne magistrat accepta la tutelle et refusa l'héritage, Voltaire, dit Ruihière, conserva toujours pour le nom de Nicolay, la plus tendre reconnaissance et une sorte de piété filiale. Cet homme, d'un caractère et d'une vertu antiques, mourut le 6 octobre 1737, âgé de près de quatre-vingts ans. De son mariage avec Elisabeth Lamoignon, soeur du chancelier de ce nom'.


Translation(ish) - via Google, so feel free to chip in with clarifications: 'Jean Nicolay was the tutor of Voltaire. Nicolas Arouet, clerk of the Room of Accounts and father of Voltaire, fearing that after his death his goods were not dissipated in vain prodigalities, entrusted to its first chair, the supervision of his two sons and went to substitute their heritage to him. This worthy magistrate accepted the supervision and refused heritage, Voltaire known as Ruilhere, always preserved for the name of Nicolay the most tender recognition and a kind of filial devotion. This man a character and virtue 'antiques' died on October 6, 1737, almost 80 years old.

Not sure what to write next...so I will stop. Glad to meet everyone though.

[yanni]

Hi, Guy

Having refreshed my picture of our (of mutual interest) "Saxe-Gotha Nicolays":

It all boils down really to the identity of the Vyborg Nicolay (+1819/20), same man imo as Sir George Amyand, Baron Alexander Stroganov, F.M.Grimm etc etc (the many etc's not to be underestimated) ie "le comte de Saint Germain".

Alternatively, to the true identity of the russian minister of foreign affairs, 1807-1812, Nikolay Petrovich whose duties seem to be identical to those of Count Soltikoff ....now the Imperial Minister of Foreign Affairs(Sept 1807 he replaced Budberg)*

(1807, 16.07., Carl Ludwig Cocceji wellcomes Napoleon in Glogau during Tilsit).

May 1808 count Rumyantzef , head of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Russia, invites Capodistria to serve in his Ministry and sends him his travel expenses .Capodistria leaves Corfu for Russia in July and, in same month(?) ....visits Baron Nicolai in Finnland wherefrom he writes to his father on the beautifull country side of Monrepos, Vyborg landscaped by the Baron, to suit “philosophers and scientists”. (Eleni Koukkou, Ioannis Capodistrias, 14th edition, Athens 2001, page 31)

Great interests go hand in hand with greater lies, least of them music!

*See "Flower's Political review and monthly register. (monthly miscellany)" by Benjamin Flower p81: Soltikoff becomes Romantzov on the same day (Lord Gower to one of the Cannings)!!

[Musicology]

Yes, let's ignore Yanni's 'doppelganger' story altogether.

(You have to laugh ! Time for a Mozart 'divertimento', my lord !)

The mercurial antidote. Complete with flavourings, artitifical colourings and genetically modified additives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jua7gqezWVY

:hand:

[Musicology]

Thank you MarkBastable - for your epistle on behalf of the 'educated and neutral' observers of this thread !

Inspired by your comments I am about to deliver a statement of my own - on behalf of the longsuffering intelligensia of New Zealand, Florida and Nova Scotia. Whose relevance to this thread may be equal to your own. Since it has not escaped them that the subject of this thread was/is '''the puzzle of the so-called 'Bach variations''' and its true author has had nothing to say of the subject for some posts. (Having disappeared in a haze of carefully laid smoke - obscured by the garrulous form of one MarkBastable) !

With an education like yours we can only suppose it's a short time before Nicholas Roerich (and a globally sanitised 'education' system constructed on his legacy by men who use lipstick) award you 3 stars on your homework.

'''For outstanding contributions to the subject of Bach variations'', of course !

(Muted applause/camera cuts to cornflakes ad/nervous rustling of papers/compere clears his throat/nervous laughter).

Camera returns to studio -

'And now, on the subject of 'Bach Variations'.................... LOL !!!



I have to say that, to the educated and neutral observer, Yanni's theory looks no more or less preposterous than Musicology's.

[GuyNic]

'It all boils down really to the identity of the Vyborg Nicolay (+1819/20)'

Here is all I have on the subject:

Magistrate and archivist Christopher Ludwig Nicolay (d.1758) married Sophie Charlotte Faber and issued Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolay (1737-1820) of Mon Repos. He married Joanna Margarethe Poggenpohl. Their issue was Count Paul von Nicolay (1777-1866) who married Princess Alexandrine Simplicie de Broglie-Revel. And so it goes on...sources are mixed. No idea about Sir George Amyand, Baron Alexander Stroganov, F.M.Grimm.

Anyway, back to Bach, Handel et al...I have copies of Frederick Nicolays will, Hyatt King's 'Some British Collectors of Music' and Donald Burrows paper 'The Royal Music Library and its Handel Collection' that I could look through. What do you feel may help the discussion's 'enlightenment' exactly?

[MarkBastable]

.... the garrulous form of one MarkBastable

Coming from you, this can only be irony...

[Musicology]

Iron is an essential nutrient and there are well documented cases where its replenishment can restore the subject of forum discussions. The credit belongs to Nature. Iron is consumed in small quantities as part of a balanced diet/discussion. And, in our case, its absence has been identified as a problem.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09356.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/05gj671423jp612u/

But a good judge always provides remedy -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogbmRo8PKc&feature=fvst


Coming from you, this can only be irony...

[yanni]

'It all boils down really to the identity of the Vyborg Nicolay (+1819/20)'

Here is all I have on the subject:

Magistrate and archivist Christopher Ludwig Nicolay (d.1758) married Sophie Charlotte Faber and issued Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolay (1737-1820) of Mon Repos. He married Joanna Margarethe Poggenpohl. Their issue was Count Paul von Nicolay (1777-1866) who married Princess Alexandrine Simplicie de Broglie-Revel. And so it goes on...sources are mixed. No idea about Sir George Amyand, Baron Alexander Stroganov, F.M.Grimm.

Anyway, back to Bach, Handel et al...I have copies of Frederick Nicolays will, Hyatt King's 'Some British Collectors of Music' and Donald Burrows paper 'The Royal Music Library and its Handel Collection' that I could look through. What do you feel may help the discussion's 'enlightenment' exactly?

I have provided you, GuyNic, with a good starting point(to your search for roots) in my previous but you bypassed it. Try to interpret what you read below and, if stuck somewhere, just ask:

(If Aymand, Grimm and Saint Germain confuse you, leave them out for the time being, bearing in mind however they all relate to Russia)

It all boils down really to the identity of the Vyborg Nicolay (+1819/20), same man imo as Sir George Amyand, Baron Alexander Stroganov, F.M.Grimm etc etc (the many etc's not to be underestimated) ie "le comte de Saint Germain".

Alternatively, to the true identity of the russian minister of foreign affairs, 1807-1812, Nikolay Petrovich (Rumyantzev) whose duties seem to be identical to those of Count Soltikoff ....now the Imperial Minister of Foreign Affairs(Sept 1807 he replaced Budberg)*

(1807, 16.07., Carl Ludwig Cocceji wellcomes Napoleon in Glogau during Tilsit). -one of the etc's!

May 1808 count Rumyantzev , head of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Russia, invites Capodistria to serve in his Ministry and sends him his travel expenses .Capodistria leaves Corfu for Russia in July and, in same month(?) ....visits Baron Nicolai in Finnland wherefrom he writes to his father on the beautifull country side of Monrepos, Vyborg landscaped by the Baron, to suit “philosophers and scientists”. (Eleni Koukkou, Ioannis Capodistrias, 14th edition, Athens 2001, page 31)

Great interests go hand in hand with greater lies, least of them music!

*See "Flower's Political review and monthly register. (monthly miscellany)" by Benjamin Flower p81: "Soltikoff" becomes "Romantzov" on the same day (Lord Gower to one of the Cannings), Sept 1807!!

(And in fact an Ivan Petrovich Saltykov is registered as owner of the Vyborg estate in 1786 http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/elektra/summary.html : The site doesn't load no more, so here is the exact quote: ...September 1786, when pomeshchiki of Kivennapa parish in the province of Vyborg General Fieldmarshal Count Ivan Petrovich Saltykov and his wife Dar'ia Petrovna Saltykova (neé Chernysheva) applied for permission to mortgage their peasants. )

You may also go back to Alexanderpalace.org's forum and look for threads by Nevsky 17* and may also try 'Nikolai Rumyantsev in Russian History' by Vladimir F. Molchanov.

As for Frederick Nicolay's will and/or his relations to Handel/Bach: I expect nothing of significance is included, please prove me wrong nevertheless!

Regards.

*http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11715.0

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A little poetry next!


To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to...

The Rumyantsev-Saltycov-Nicolai identity struggle began in fact after the socalled battle of Kunersdorf (July 1759)*, where the russian and austrian forces led by a general, later known by all these names, all of a sudden decided to retreat instead of overrunning Prussia, thus saving the face and securing the fate of Kaiser Fritz (who selected to end his version of Prussia's rise to power, published after his death, with this specific battle, attributing the fact to a miracle!)

The Kaiser hosted, allegedly (history's spin doctors all giving their different version of SG's whereabouts at the time), Le comte de Saint Germain in the spring of the following year in Berlin and San Soucci, March to May, and after that he replaced Voltaire with "Rousseau" as his favorite author.

N.J.Jacquin’s "Enumeratio systematica plantarum" was published 1760**, Vienna. Linnaeus complimented him: I have seldom seen such a small booklet so rich in golden knowledge. I read it during the evening and could not sleep at night because I dreamed of your beautiful plants.

Baron (1806 and earlier) Nikolaus Joseph Jacquin's limited biography data*** link him strongly to Le comte de Saint Germain (Gioachino-Jacquin-Cocchi).

He, allegedly, left Cuba in 1759 and arrived in Vienna in July of the same year, and the expedition was considered to have been an unqualified success. Carl Linnaeus, hearing of the expedition, initiated what would become a lifelong correspondence with Jacquin, writing him congratulations in a letter of August 1, 1759. He welcomed Jacquin as "the ambassador of Flora itself, bringing us the treasures from foreign worlds...

A 250 year anniversary was celebrated August this year for his last home, Mon Repos in Vyborg, Carelia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XObJTHO3yhs

Why 250 years?

Well, that's another puzzle for our historian friends to solve, isn't it?

*http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Battle_of_Kunersdorf Look also for the role of a "chevalier de Nicolai" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Minden : De Nicolai "should have joined the right wing, where Broglio commanded, before eight o'clock, but was too late in arriving ; and when Broglio commanded him immediately to attack, he said that they must still wait for the marquis de Beaupreau. This was too late for Contades"

**See Reverend Baron Claude Denis Cochin(?), associate of Buffon and Rousseau, (post 144 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15023&page=10) collecting the West Indies flora specimens himself, at Fort Duquesne, at the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers ....towards the end of 1755 !

***http://enc.tfode.com/Nikolaus_von_Jacquin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To continue on "Nicolay:

A rare book linking "our" Frederick Nicolay to Handel's librettist Paolo Rolli....

Il Decameron Di Messer Giovanni Boccaccio
London-Thomas Edlin, 1725. Very Good Book A scarce edition of this famous and important work with an interesting provenance. Bound in leather with gilt lettering and decoration. This edition of TheDecameron is a direct reprint of the 1527 edition, including the frontispiece and title page, with additional editorial matter. Includes two engraved plates, the frontispiece by Baron after Grisoni and a portrait of Boccaccio engraved by Auber. With the ink signature of Frederick Nicolay to the 1527 title page. With the dedication by Paolo Rolli. The three-pagelist of subscribers includes numerous eminent names. Paolo Antonio Rolli, 1687-1765, was an Italian librettist and poet. He was trained by Gian Vincenzo Gravina, and worked in London from 1715-44. He wrote librettos for numerous Italian operas, and worked frequently with composer Giovanni Bononcini. In addition to his work as a libretist, Rolli wrote poetry, cantata texts, satires and translations. Rolli published an Italian verse translation of Milton's Paradise Lost, widely considered the finest in any language. Frederick de Nicolay was born in Saxe-Gotha and died 16 May 1809 at St James Palace, London. Frederick was introduced to King George III, with whom he became a very great favourite, andremained ever after the confidential friend of both their Majesties, as well as of their family. He lived in St. James's Palace. Nicolay became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury. Condition: The binding is tight and firm. The front board is missing, and the rear board and free-endpaper are detached. There is wear to the extremities, including rubbing and discoloured marks, with loss to the spine, including the spine label. Internally however the pagesare brightwith only some intermittent light background spots, becoming prominent to the first few pages only as to be expected. The front free-endpaper has a very small section missing to the top corner. Overall the condition is fair but with a very good interior and would make a very good copy once rebound. Priced to allow for the excellent binding it deserves.


...has already been commented in an adjacent thread as...

Obviously a Saxegothan with strong links to pre 1725 Florence!

A search was then initiated on "Paolo Rolli" which produced his lost portrait....

http://www.operatoday.com/content/2009/04/lost_portrait_o.php

...bearing enough similarity to our own previous "Gerhard van Swieten" and his multiple identity revelation (same man as Ant.Cocchi/Handel/Bach/Cl.Amyand)...

http://neuroactivity.org/neurology/cluster-headache/

...to cure, not just our, but every musicologist's migraine once and for all!

Explanation:

"Paolo Rolli" was one more penname of Dr Antonio Cocchi (aka Dr Claudius Amyand, Dr Gerhard van Swieten, G.FHandel, J.S.Bach).

"Frederick de Nicolay" aka Claudius Amyand jr (and/or George Amyand) aka Gioachino Cocchi etc etc aka baron Nikolaus Joseph de Jacquin, aka "Le comte de Saint Germain", was his son.

Moreover, "Frederick de Nicolay" had a lot in common with Immanuel Kant as we'll see in next!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still more poetry

Following his 1794 expulsion from Modena (under The Holy Roman Empire) and his subsequent nine month imprisonment at Innsbruck and trial in Vienna, Sir Levet Hanson sought refuge in various german courts, to settle 1797-1807 in Erlangen/Sachsen Gotha to then move to Stockholm and next to Copenhagen, 1811, where he died in 1814. A close friend and associate of Lord Nelson, he is mostly known today for his “Accurate Historical Account of all the Orders of Knighthood at present existing in Europe”, Hamburg/London 1803, dedicated to Nelson.
His less known “Miscellaneous compositions in verse”, Copenhagen, 1811, provides the required evidence to this post’s title however!

--------------

A “Frederick Baron de Nicolay”-listed among his subscribers for both works- is described as “late Secretary of Legation to the Russian Diplomatic Mission Resident to the Court of London” , the word “late” used because, later on in this last book, we learn that this same Baron de Nicolay, in some next academic capacity, was leaving the University of Erlangen, on the Easter Eve of 1796, and his followers, students or otherwise, dedicated some verse to his honour on his album or “stem-buch”, so good and revealing that Sir Levett took then the trouble to translate them for his readers, us included.

A most touching poem, by a Baron de Schraeder, bears the Title “To Piso” (“an artless Muse”, as Schraeder writes ) and tells us that Baron Nicolay is set and ready for.....


“far distant states/and over Moscovia’s coast shall stray”

.....schraeding to pieces, with Levet's assistance, the whole Babylon Tower or pile of grove-ling garbage of current encyclopedic Nikolai myths and Nicolay creative biography tales:

Among the various “Nicolay(i)s” online biographies etcs, you see, NONE wants any of their subjects teaching at Erlangen in any capacity, OR leaving for “Moscovia” on the above or any other date, OR linking in such clarity the London Nicolays (royal pages, musicians) to their German or French or Russian Nicolai counterparts, BECAUSE, among other more important revelations, the poem's title and the specific verse tells us that Immanuel Kant, Baron Frederick de Nicolay and Jean Jacques Rousseau were one and the same person.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nicolai
http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/artikelNDB_n19-209-01.html
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hanson,_Levett_(DNB00)
Johann Georg Nicolai (1720–1788): Nicolai, Johann Georg (Organist; Komponist; 1720 bis 1788) –No content
Karl Heinrich Nicolai (1739–1823): Nicolai, Karl Heinrich (evangelischer Prediger; Schriftsteller; Schulmann; Naturforscher; 1739 bis 1823) –No content
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolay_(family)
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/music/royalmusiclibrary/royalmusicnicolay/royalmusicnicolay.html

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The poem's title, "To Piso", and the specific verse:

Piso never was a muse! Schraeder, in his farewell ode to Frederick de Nicolay in 1796, is certainly referring to Gaius Calpurnius Piso, the Roman senator who inherited from his father (never identified) connection with many distinguished families, and from his mother great wealth...... sang on the tragic stage, wrote poetry, played an expert game of draughts.... was good-looking, affable, and an excellent orator and advocate in the courts. Despite these facts Piso's overall integrity was questionable.... and in 65 A.D. led a secret initiative to replace Emperor Nero that became known as the Pisonian Conspiracy. Piso leveraged senatorial anger with Emperor Nero to gain power... ...all attributes fully descriptive of “our hero”, as readers of Yanni’s posts are aware by now.

Schraeder in other words is eloquently critisiziing (“not an artfull muse”, he writes) his former professor whose participation in the 1792 events in Paris is known to him. His verse is really a “good ridance” wish in disguise: Baron de Nicolay HAD to leave Erlangen in a hurry, Easter of 1796, destination Russia, Schraeder blows the whistle on him and so does Levet, 15 years later in 1811, failing at the same time to absolve the Royal House of England from their involvement not just in the 1792 events in Paris but also from later events that followed their "trusted top page/musician's" summer 1796 Moscovia mission:

The death, propably, of Tzarina Catherine II (17 November [O.S. 6 November] 1796) and the two attempts against the life of her successor, Tzar Paul I, in 1800 and 1801,the second succeeding (+March, 1801).

As for "Immanuel Kant"*:

Mid-semester 1796 he ended his lectures at Koenigsberg University and left the city, destination and reasons unknown. His researchers are in disagreement as to the exact date of his departure:

Kant’s Retirement from Teaching: The amount of disagreement as to when Kant actually stopped teaching is quite remarkable.[1] It appears that his last day of teaching was July 23, 1796[2] — but even if this date is correct, it is not unproblematic. Arnoldt lists the beginning- and end-dates of Kant’s logic lectures for SS 1796 as April 11 (Monday) and July 23 (Saturday); the beginning-date is what one would expect: Easter fell on March 27 that year, the new rector would have been elected the following Sunday (April 3), and classes would have begun eight days after the election. But logic meets on a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday schedule, so it is unclear why Kant would have met for the last time on a Saturday. Repetitoria always met on Saturday, but Kant is not listed as having offered one this semester — and in any event, they are given their own beginning and end-dates, and treated as a separate course offering. His physical geography course met on Wednesday and Saturday as usual, and is listed as beginning and ending on Wednesday: April 13 and July 13 [Arnoldt 1908-9, iv.431, v.327]. In any event, Kant stopped in mid-semester, possibly at the beginning of the mid-semester break (the so-called “Dog Days” vacation). He had also ended his lectures somewhat early the previous several semesters.

[1] Borowski reported that Kant “gave his public lectures until 1797, but had already given up the private lectures in 1793.” Jachmann reported that “he limited his teaching in J. 1794” given his growing weakness from old age. Rink reported that he stopped lecturing in the middle of 1795. Hasse reported that he hadn’t held any lectures since 1793. Schubert reported that he gave up his private lectures in WS 1795/96, and continued to teach only his public courses (logic and metaphysics), quitting these at the end of the SS 1797. Having described taking Kant’s lectures during WS 1793/94, Reusch wrote: “Kant only read for another semester, suspended his lectures, gradually also his walks” [repr. in Malter 1990, 401]. See Arnoldt’s discussion [1908-9, v.328-31].
[2] This dating depends on two sources: (1) an undated letter to Fichte, that Arthur Warda has been able to assign the date 13 October 1797, in which Kant wrote that the weakness accompanying his old age “forced him to give up lecturing one and one-half years ago” — which places the end-date around April 1796, and (2) university records that show Kant ending his physical geography lectures for SS 1796 on July 13, and his logic lectures on July 23. See Warda [1901, 88]..

Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad today) was ofcourse the best and safest way to reach Saint Petersburg travelling from Erlangen in 1796!

*Kant was offered, 23 November 1769, a newly created logic and metaphysics teaching post at Erlangen which he allegedly declined a month later.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Calpurnius_Piso
http://www.manchester.edu/kant/professors/profsKantsRise.htm#erlangens):
http://www.manchester.edu/kant/professors/profsKantsRise.htm

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Applied philosophy

Having long concluded already http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35779&page=3, that this story’s multifaced hero, as Stroganov-Saltycov-Rumyantzev-Saint Germain, was behind the “removal” of Peter III in 1762, the enthronement of Catherine II and the death of his own son, Paul I, in 1801, a simple affirmation that, by all indications, Catherine was also assassinated in November 1796, might seem biased somehow, the more so after the recent addition to the list of Saint Germain’s other aliases (that already includes JJRousseau and FMGrimm) of Immanuel Kant, founder of transcendental philosophy or “Kantianism”.
The barrier into Kant’s "transcendent" must therefore be lifted and relative research must look “beyond what our faculty of knowledge can legitimately know” to present some at least from many available indications leading to this last conclusion.

Furthermore, having in previous included the Royal House of England among the suspects, the somewhat oldfashioned principle of objectivity must be observed before passing final judgement as, again by all indications, they* do not seem to be the “master-mind” of this machiavellian 18th century plot that shaped our western world eversince, the ugly, covert part of diplomacy left in the competent hands of William Pitt jr (+1806), conspicuous as an incomparable manager of men and finances; so too, as a man who would resort to harsh measures and his bankers/spies/executors, Messrs “Amyand & Illuminated Associates” on who the finger must really be pointed for masterminding and personaly taking part in the ascend into a better world of Catherine II as well!

Let us therefore return to our timeline to see what gives:

Eastern Eve 1796 Baron Frederick de Nicolay leaves Erlangen for Moscovia and, around July 1796, Immanuel Kant also interrupts his teaching post and leaves Koenigsberg with no apparent reason.

25th August 1796 count Alexander Sergeievich Stroganov, then Grand Chamberlain of the Imperial Court (1796), is host to Catherine and Gustavus IX of Sweden in his Dacha on the Neva. ( http://www.taleon.ru/taleonclub_ru/ProjectImages/2587/98-110-0.pdf)

7 November [O.S. 6 November] 1796,Catherine II dies of undefined causes with yet another Soltykoff, General Nikolai Ivanovich Soltykoff (1736 - 1816), new to this thread, bypassing the imperial chamberlain(!!), to take charge of things in the royal chambers and see her last. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Dmitriyevich_Saltykov **

Upon the accession of Catherine's son, Paul I, in 1796, Dashkova and all of Catherine's favorites and supporters were exiled to a small village outside Novgorod. (For Grimm’s factotum, Dashkova, and her “Ivan Saltycov” who “didn’t know a thing about music”etc see post 28 of http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35779&page=2)

We are not sure if Paul I did expell a "Nicolai" along the rest of “Catherine favorites” in 1796/1797 however:

"A" "Ferdinand Friedrich von Nicolai", Prussia’s general as from 1786 etc etc, was only send 1801 (to 1803), ie after Paul's own assasination, to the court of Saint Petersberg to be next appointed Prussia’s State and War Minister to then retire, February 1806, and die, 14. May 1814, in Ludwigsburg. "Allegedly"! http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/artikelADB_023-579-01.html

Having already outlined the problematic existence of the clusters (or variations, to honour Handel/Bach) of Nicolays, Rumyantzevs and Saltykovs in this thread and others, I’ll spare myself the pain to repeat it and focus next posts on Kant’s “presences" from 1796 onwards, on Friedrich von Nicolai the Berlin/Leipzig publisher, on some of Rousseau's "alter egos", stll alive post 1796, and finally on Catherine’s doctors, Dimsdale/Amyand/Cocchi among others.


*Britain was heavily indebted at the time and "bankers" were in control of London and other major capitals. Levet, in 1811, spilled the beans on the royal page "de Nicolay" following King George's last serious health crisis and the appointment of the Regent in 1810. Levet's action is undoubtably related to the rivalry between Lord Castlereigh and George Canning (their duel Sept 1809 followed by Canning publishing his version of the story six months later) running in parallel to the one between the Regent and his father.


** For Alexei Dim. Saltycov, the Indian of Leroux's "Phantom of the Opera", see http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40910

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Kant's 1796 and later "presences" ie evidence of his whereabouts.

Kant's biographies, in general, large as they are on his opus, fall rather short on life details, depicting a lifelong bachelor philosophe, a hermit who spend all his life teaching at Koenigsberg...until he quits his post, midsemester 1796 as per previous, to then publish:
1796 [Soemmerring], 1797 [Metaphysics of Moral], 1798 [Conflict of the Faculties], 1798 [Anthropology], 1798 [Making Books], 1803 [On Education] and an Opus postumum in 1804....
....all by a “promising”* (Matthias) Friedrich Nicolovius (1768-1836)...born in Königsberg, where he attended the Collegium Fridericianum and then the university (matriculation: 1 Oct 1784) etc who started his publishing business in 1790 with Kant’s works** mainly.

Inbetween these works Kant finds it of importance to disassociate himself*** from the Berlin publisher Nicolai (his alter ego, imo) with On Turning Out Books. Two Letters to Mr. Friedrich Nicolai from Immanuel Kant.”( Königsberg: Friedrich Nicolovius, 1798).
Nicolai, conveniently described today as...
-Kant’s target in these open letters is Christoph Friedrich Nicolai (1733-1811), a successful Berlin author and book publisher, friend of Lessing and Mendelssohn, a man of empiricist tastes and a “popular” philosopher, who founded the Allgemeine deutsche Bibliothek in 1765 and served as its editor for forty years
....and in the past as...
-(Goethe): PROKTOPHANTASMIST: A German coinage meaning "Rump-ghostler"--the Greek: proktos, "anus" + phantasma, "phantom"; the last syllable is also homophonous with the German word for dung (mist). The character caricatures Friedrich Nicolai (1773-1811), who opposed modern movements in German thought and literature and had parodied Goethe's The Sorrows of Young Werther ( I 774)****.

Needles perhaps to note that Goethe's proktophantasmist is nowhere to be found post 1796 as well! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Friedrich_Nicolai

Finally: If Rousseau had Mme d’Epinay to assist him in his Confessions, if Le Comte de Saint Germain had von Gleichen, if Gluck had Grimm and Grimm had Dashkova etc etc, all verifying separate identities and existence of the same man, so did Kant: Very busy after 1800, he employed Yachmann: Jachmann’s biography of Kant (1804) was begun in 1800 or earlier at Kant’s request, and for which he solicited Kant’s written help with a list of 56 questions, although Kant was unable to answer them for lack of strength

Conclusion: There is no availbale evidence online that Kant resided permanently -or at all-in Kaliningrad, post 1796. He ordered and edited his own biography but was "unable" to supply author Yachmann with details.

*Matthias Friedrich, allegedly...had a twin brother, Balthasar, and an older brother Georg Heinrich Ludwig (1767-1839), who worked in the Prussian ministry for church and educational affairs in Prussia. Their father was the Hofrat Matthias Balthasar Nicolovius (1717-1778), a friend of Kant’s. [[B]Jachmann 1912, 151] : Propably his son, our hero maintaining his monumental cheekiness all along!
**He also published works by J. G. Hamann, and Kotzebue, among others, both related to “Saint Germain”.
***The tryck also used for and by other aliases of “him”.
****Goethe coined his prokto term post 1800 ('The complete works of Sir Walter Scott: with a biography", Vol I by Sir Walter Scott): He was propably among the audience of Nicolai, who cooly read his account of his own phantastic illness, attributing it to events of early 1791, that resulted to his phantom seeing later on. Goethe certainly regretted the term soon after (Feb 1810 when Von Gleichen is in Leipzig with Goethe and (later Dresden’s Russian governor) Repnin), his Faust only completed much later, when he knew- and still could live with- the whole hi-story!

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The publisher Christoph Friedrich Nicolai and his whereabouts 1796 and later.

That’s how the title should really read but, convinced already- thru parallel research-that Immanuel Kant, J.J. Rousseau, the royal page/professor Frederick de Nicolay and the publisher/author Friedrich Nicolai were some of the many aliases of the same person, my hero, the initiative was taken to check him out a little more, including earlier dates, and was accordingly rewarded.

Starting with Wikipedia: Their brief article on Friedrich*, does him injustice, his “nothing like Kant” halfidiotic description accompanied by a fitting portrait. Nevertheless there is no reference therein on any post 1796 activity. Furthermore the article’s author does provide us with a very usefull Nicolai's Bildniss und Selbsbiographie was published by Moses Samuel Löwe in the Bildnisse jetzt lebender Berliner Gelehrter, in 1806 ie Nicolai had his own biography written, just like Kant, by an unknown(link returns empty) “ Moses Samuel Loewe”.

Further research then resulted to more finds, summarised below:.

-In 1760 Nicolai was married to Elisabeth Macaria Schaarschmidt († 1793), daughter of the King‘s doctor Prof. Samuel Schaarschmidt (of unknown biography), and had eight children who all died before him
- as from 1792 he had to move publishing his Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek( ended 1796) from Berlin to Kiel because of the oppressive censorship in Berlin and, quite rationally for a halfidiot, opposed at the time Lavater’s “devil” http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=8087.
- Of Nicolai's independent works, perhaps the only one which has some historical value is his Anekdoten von Friedrich II (1788-1792). His romances are forgotten, although Das Leben und die Meinungen des Herrn Magister Sebaldus Nothanker (1773-1776), and his satire on Goethe's Werther, Freuden des jungen Werthers (1775), had a certain reputation in their day....between 1788 and 1796, Nicolai published in twelve volumes a Beschreibung einer Reise durch Deutschland und die Schweiz, which bears witness to the narrow conservatism of his views in later life.
(To orient the reader, chronologicaly: Robespierre was arrested on the 27th of July 1794 along with other Jacobin leader and was guillotined without trial. The directors dissolved the Paris Commune on the 26th of October 1795.)
-A Nicolai son worked for his father 1789-1795 and there also was a sister, Wilhelmime, residing in Leipsig. (Pamela Eve Selwyn)
-Nicolai writes a letter to his daughter Wilhelmine, 23 April 1796, Leipzig (P.E.Swelyn's book includes many letters to Nicolay but few from him)
- When the monthly Berlinische Monatsschrift (where Kant had nearly all his essays published) came to its definite end in 1796** ( they also moved to Jena in 1792 to avoid the Berlin censorship) his son, Carl August Nicolai, hosted one of the Ber.Mon. publishers, Johann Erich Biester, in his next “Berlinische Blätter” quarterly (July 97 to April 98) where Kant published yet another essay. http://www.manchester.edu/kant/helps/PeriodFrames.html
-Friedrich Nicolay authored “Immanuel Kant's Kennzeichen der Philosophie oder Weischeitsliebe im reinsten Sinne des Worts”, Frankfurt und Leipzig(?), 1796 (A few pages only. He is taking his distances from Kant in panic!), “NEUN GESPRAECHE ZWISCHEN CHRISTIAN WOLFF UND EINEM KANTIANER ueber Kants metaphysische Anfangsgrunde der Rechtslehre und der Tugendlehre”, Berlin/Stettin, 1798, “UEBER MEINE KENNTNISS DER KRITISCHEN PHILOSOPHIE und meine Schriften dieselbe betreffend, und ueber die Herren Kant, J.B. Erhard, und Fichte. Eine Beylage zu den neun Gespraechen zwischen Christian Wolf und einem Kantianer” Berlin/Stettin, 1799
-Nicolai did create and confirm his own idiocy thru his "An Account of the Apparition of Several Phantoms." The German Museum (1800), before his final
-PHILOSOPHISCHE ABHANDLUNGEN Berlin/Stettin, 1808

...all quite interesting-proving more or less that the author/philosophe/publisher left Berlin earlier than 1796, having done his best until then to associate himself with Kant and to then reverse course with a 180, never lost his ironclad humor etc-but not quite what we were looking for. This came when, looking for Nicolai and his friends in the Manchester site, another periodical appeared where Kant also published his essay 'Teleological Principles' in 1788:"Teutsche Merkur”, Publisher: Christoph Martin Wieland [bio], Weimar (Carl Ludolf Hoffmanns Verlag). Dates of Publication: Feb. 1773-1789.

Opening Wieland’s previous “[bio]” one learns that Kant not only spoke and thought like Wieland in 1795 but looked like him too: Purgstall had seen and associated with "both men" and with Goethe as well. Goethe on the other hand avoids mentioning Purgstall’s comment*** but does inform us that Wieland was in Kiel, December 1796. As for Kant himself: He sought to have his portraits****, pre 1796, “made up”.
Here is relative quote from Wielands 'bio' on Kant/Wieland:

1786 (Dec 7): Member of the Berlin Academy of Sciences.Born (Sep 5) in Bieberach, died (Jan 20) in Weimar. A poet, classicist, and man of letters. His teaching career at Erfurt was brief. Closely associated with the court at Weimar. Founded and edited the important journal of literature, Der Teutsche Merkur (Frankfurt and Leipzig, 1773-1789). Published the first German translations of many of Shakespeare’s plays (1762-6). When Purgstall visited Kant in 1795, he thought Kant resembled Wieland: “You will be amazed who I think Kant resembles; in his wide-ranging speech, in his long parenthetical remarks, sometimes even in his language — with — the crazy Wieland!”[1] Kant and Wieland were inducted into the Berlin Academy of Sciences on the same day. [Letters: 73, 73A, 74, ++++] [Sources: ADB]

Which proves our point all along that Kant and Wieland and therefore Rousseau(see The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs! - Page 9) and Nicolai/de Nicolay were the same person and, after the death of Catherine II*****, “they all” returned to Kiel, an ideal harbour to return home by ship from Saint Petersberg if Koenigsberg has to be avoided.


* based on: Chisholm, Hugh, ed (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (Eleventh ed.). Cambridge University Press.
** On the last page of the December 1796 issue is an “Abschied von den Lesern” written by J. E. Biester, indicating that this was to be the last issue, noting that the journal had begun in January 1783, thus completing 28 volumes [with 2 vols per year].
***Begegnungen und Gespräche: 1793-1799 by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
****The Life of Immanuel Kant J. H. Stuckenberg
*****Catherine initiated censorship of authors, publishers, printers, and booksellers, September 1796. She had banned all freemason lodges in 1792, their leader, "a" Shakespearean Nicolai Novikov-looking a lot like a younger, properly russianised Wieland-jailed later on, etc etc, allegedly!!

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More on Kant/Nicolay(i)/Sinterklaas* and his “applied trancendentalism” practices.

Further to the realisation that “all indications” point to Tzarina Catherine’s assassination November 1796, a previous murder, that of Gustav III of Sweden, was examined:

October 1791 Gustav concluded an eight years' defensive alliance with the empress, who thereby bound herself to pay her new ally an annual subsidy of 300,000 roubles.Gustav now aimed at forming a league of princes against the Jacobins, and subordinated every other consideration to this goal. His profound knowledge of popular assemblies enabled him, alone among contemporary sovereigns, accurately to gauge from the first the scope and bearing of the French Revolution.
The Treaty of Yassy, a pact between Russia and the Ottoman Empire confirming Russia domination in the Black Sea was signed January 9th, 1792
Gustav III was lethaly wounded during a masquerade ball at the Royal Opera in Stockholm, March 16, 1792*.

For this last “tentative mission”, all important aliases of Le comte de Saint Germain/G.Cocchi&Co were then checked through and here are the results :


Joseph Haydn, end of November 1791, visited Cambridge to appear again 14th June 1792 in Windsor Castle and Ascot for the races, to the return to Vienna.
F.M.Grimm,, the last foreigner to leave Paris, February 1792, was last seen in Coblenz soon after.
P.M.Hennin was decommissioned from the French Foreign Office March 1792 .
Gottfried Van Swieten On 2 January 1793, he sponsored in Vienna a performance of Mozart's Requiem as a benefit concert for Constanze; He was also reported to have helped arrange for the education of Mozart's son Karl in Prague....but it's very unlikely he ever returned to Vienna after late 1791-early 1792 http://www.mozartforum.com/Contemporary%20Pages/Van_Sweiten_Contemp.htm
For Kant/de Nicolay/Nicolai see previous.
There are no alibi providing data on record online for re period on Von Gleichen, Christoph Martin Wieland, George Amyand Cornwall, Alexander Ser. Stroganov either.


Same for November 1796 for all the above.

*With regard to Gustav's murder, "Nicolai Novikov", at the time allegedly held without formal trial and imprisonment in the Shlisselburg Fortress on the Neva, has a further rock- solid alibi in his defense however: His friend Dashkova....In a letter dated July 1792, Dashkova went to the defense of Novikov and appealed to the commander-in-chief of Moscow, A. A. Prozorovskii.45 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7759/is_200705/ai_n32232309/pg_13/?tag=content;col1.

(continued)


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus.

[billl]

Hmmm.... Yes. The masquerade ball.

[yanni]

Hmmm.... Yes. The masquerade ball.

So you don't believe in Santa Claus, huh?

[billl]

I don't know. Actually, there appears to be rather less drama than I had hoped for from a Masquerade ball murder.

[yanni]

For drama, try 'Nathan the wise' by Lessing, 1779, the motif of the Ring Parable borrowed from Boccaccio's Decameron (see previous post on Claude Amyand/Paolo Rolli/Nicolay and the specific book)
http://www.coursesindrama.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?com_mode=flat&com_order=1&itemid=89

Lessing's biography compares to that of Santa Claus btw!

[yanni]

This thread, already rated #1-#4 (among some six hundred thousand when googling for 'Bach variations'), will not examine, as previously announced, 'Catherine’s doctors, Dimsdale/Amyand/Cocchi among others'* and is hereby terminated.

My thanks to all who participated and my apologies to those whose fundamental beliefs were overturned. Mine were too, for what's worth.


*Their data and interlinkage , easily to be found on the web and, now, expanded and interpreted, deemed superfluous.

[billl]

When I google "Bach Variations", I don't get this thread in the first 4 pages (after that, I stopped looking), so google might be figuring your interests and previous searches into the results that you are seeing.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong?

[yanni]

You may be right (in fact I refused to believe in the past that Google adapts search results to the individual user, letting him enjoy his own "truth" sort of). No matter, the subject is closed anyhow.


When I google "Bach Variations", I don't get this thread in the first 4 pages (after that, I stopped looking), so google might be figuring your interests and previous searches into the results that you are seeing.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong?

[ERS]

There has been no paucity of ideas advanced by a Member of O.L. regarding an individual with “thousands of aliases;” there may be some benefit in allowing art to imitate life (or vice-versa).
If it is true that imagination is the Workshop of the Mind, we may do well to also delve into the “highways and byways” of that most versatile of genres, Science Fiction. After separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, we have seen many resourceful - even ingenious - examples of storytelling displayed on both the Small and Silver Screens. There is, of course, merit in our intellectual exercise. Art in all its multifaceted adaptability can take us into that “Undiscovered Country” of the impossible. That being said, are we truly examining a meme of “Truth Stranger than Fiction” or are we contemplating theories and assertions so outlandish; so inconceivable that only the realm of fantasy can explain them? To paraphrase the memorable words of Arthur C. Clarke: “Technology of a sufficiently advanced level is indistinguishable from magic.”
Let us open the door to one such exercise.
The American television franchise Star Trek has impressed both critics and viewers for decades. On many levels, it was (and still is) considered a bellwether; many issues relating to the Human Condition are fearlessly analyzed - and dramatized - at the same time.
So…
Let us dim the lights, sit back with some popcorn, beverages, Buffalo wings, hot dogs and candy, and view some scenes from the Episode That Should Have Been:


(Scene: the Captain’s Ready Room on the Galaxy Class Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-D):

Picard: “Captain’s Log, Stardate 23109.43, 2300 hours. I have summoned several members of the Senior Staff to discuss a most unusual and unexpected matter. Three days have elapsed since a probe of unknown origin was transported on-board the ship and analyzed. Mr. LaForge and Mr. Data were able to access its most arcane circuitry and interpret the message held in its central processor. Evidently, Data’s creator, Dr. Noonien Soong, left a variety of stones unturned in his endeavors. Some conundrums thicken with age and I have made it a priority to delve into this matter.”

(Captain Jean-Luc Picard at his computer, intently studying a screen display; sound of door chime at his Ready Room):

Picard: “Come!”

(LaForge, Worf and Data enter the Ready Room, stop, turn, and stand at attention in front of Picard’s desk):

Data: “Reporting as ordered, Captain.”

Picard: “Thank you, gentlemen; at ease. Have you learned anything more from our captured probe?”

LaForge: “Yes, sir; Data was able to decode the more deeply-layered algorithms through his Positronic Matrix.”

Data: “Sir, Geordi’s visor detected low-level sub-space emanations from the probe; they revealed an instructional code to activate a secondary archive in the device. We did thus. Apparently, Dr. Soong “nested” the information to allow for quantum level encryptions. My processors appeared to be tailor-made for the job. ”

LaForge: “Sir, this probe was meant for us to access.”

Picard (expressing bewilderment): “Meant? Why?”

Data: “After decoding approximately 91% of the available information thus far, Sir, there is evidence that my creator constructed a seventh android prototype, with design parameters very similar to Lore’s and mine.
This model has a most unusual designation, based on its structural and power plant architecture. Dr. Soong revisited – and greatly enhanced - the Cold Fusion experiments of the 20th and 21st Centuries. He incorporated those research advancements into his seventh model’s power plant and processors; the android’s nomenclature reflects these fusion theorems and amalgams: Constructions Of Cryogenic Circuitry Hierarchically Integrated. Or, for reasons of expedience, C.O.C.C.H.I. Dr. Soong had a great affection for the Early Romantic Italian composer Rossini’s music and affectionately named his latest effort ‘Gioachino.’”

Picard (incredulously): “A seventh prototype?!”

Data: “Yes, sir. Apparently Dr. Soong developed and possessed a second emotion chip early on in our development. For reasons of security, he kept that fact concealed; both chips were unfinished in time for installation into my Positronic Net. However, Dr. Soong placed it in C.O.C.C.H.I. There is more, however. C.O.C.C.H.I. was constructed for enhanced processing power. Also, through accelerated organic and epidural interfaces - and structural and anatomic frame enhancements – he was designed to morph. That is, to manifest the identical outward appearance of virtually any humanoid shape, size and color. C.O.C.C.H.I. was, according to Dr. Soong’s probe, the most advanced android constructed by he; C.O.C.C.H.I. is more advanced than even my mother Julianna. I was unaware of that fact.”

Worf (amazed and delighted): “Yes, an astonishing tactical advantage! The Klingon High Council was in pursuit of Dr. Soong’s work for a time; it was widely believed that warrior androids would fight with more ferocity and effectiveness while imbued with emotion while engaged in battle. The advantages of shape-shifting are self-explanatory. It was long a rumor and even considered classified information amongst some factions of the Council. (softly, with contemplation) Apparently, it was more than just a rumor.”

Picard: “Indeed; are C.O.C.C.H.I.’s whereabouts known?”

LaForge: “We believe so, Sir. But this is where it gets pretty wild.”

Picard: “I beg your pardon?”

Data: “We have accessed the Ship’s Archives germane to the time periods of the Temporal Cold War which, if you will recall, embroiled the 21st and 22nd Centuries in great tumult. Star Fleet Captain Jonathan Archer was instrumental in finding a resolution to the Conflict through his collaboration with Crewman Daniels. After Archer secured peace with the Xindi Race and helped correct the alternate Nazi events course initiated by Vosk of the Na'kuhl, the Original Timeline was restored in 2154. My creator’s great-grandfather, Arik Soong, participated in the Eugenics Wars. The Eugenic and Enhancement Efforts proved detrimental. Noonien had surreptitiously obtained several Augments for further research. It was primarily through these units that he was able to enhance C.O.C.C.H.I. as previously detailed.He had also learned of the Suliban ability to shapeshift; it was these characteristics he wished to incorporate into the hybrid construction of C.O.C.C.H.I.”

Picard (reminiscing): “Similar stories were told at the Academy; any accounts of a seventh android of Soong’s were considered apochryphal and quickly dismissed. I also recall Archer’s works on temporal geometry. They were required reading in the Sophomore Year. But what does this have to do with the probe?”

Data: “Actually, plenty, Sir. The probe revealed that C.O.C.C.H.I., somehow, through means presently unknown, gained access to Daniels’ time travel apparatus secured on the Enterprise Registry NX-01 in 2151. Upon this acquisition, he transported himself back to 18th Century Earth. Central Europe, to be exact. C.O.C.C.H.I. had adopted a very eccentric sense of humor after implantation of the second emotion chip. As stated, he was Dr. Soong’s most ambitious project. He has a computational speed of approximately 313 exabytes per second, can run 115 kilometers per hour, swim at 30 knots, can dead-lift loads in excess of 2,570 Kgs, has a lifespan of 500 years, and, as previously mentioned, can morph. This information was provided by the probe. So it is safe to say that a, er, “Classical Era Dilettante” with radically enhanced capabilities is – ah, er – “was,” gallivanting around city and country, if you will. Up until the time of the American Civil War there were legends of a “lightning-like and most fantastick water-borne Individual cavorting amongst the icy Boulders and parting them as if they were as small Pebbles,” guiding George Washington’s crossing of the Delaware River on Christmas Day, 1776.”

Picard (angrily, loudly banging his right fist on his desk): “Dammit! What of the profound historical implications?! What an outrageous turn of events!! Why would C.O.C.C.H.I. take part in such appalling and puerile mischief?!”

Data: “I would surmise, sir, that C.O.C.C.H.I. is - “was”- the consummate Practical Joker. Perhaps Dr. Soong initiated a series of interaction commands that were corrupted somehow; it is unlikely that my creator would knowingly tamper with the events of history. Perhaps there was damage to his emotion chip. At this point we should rule nothing out.”

Picard: (with mild resignation) “Agreed.”

LaForge: “Sir, the probe revealed that C.O.C.C.H.I. has – well, “had” a penchant for temporarily incapacitating prominent cultural and political figures of the era and actively assuming their personas for several days or weeks. Through his radical capabilities, he is capable of producing a body of literary or musical work - in one day – that’d take even a talented individual 10 years to produce. Talk about a guy with 1,000 faces.”

Picard: “Was there information about how C.O.C.C.H.I. incapacitated these individuals?

Data: “There were no specific techniques or methods mentioned as such, Sir. I would surmise that the victims were neutralized via modified ultrasonic tones of an extreme volume, or through precisely administered, time-released sedative injections; more likely the latter. The probe revealed a rumor that the composer Johann Christian Bach had a twin, who was, late in 1761, discovered by spire designer Francesco Croce to have been secreted, unconscious, into the upper lateral supports of the Milan Cathedral’s Madonnina Spire. Croce wrote in his journal that this twin was discovered - and I quote – ‘…in a state of profound Torpor…though he had the breath of Life in him, was absorbed by a deathly Fatigue.’”

Picard: “Was there any other information on the breadth of C.O.C.C.H.I.’s effect and influence?”

Data: “Actually, Sir, the probe’s archives reveal that C.O.C.C.H.I. employed approximately 2,300 aliases in 16 countries, among them Austria, Italy, Germany, the United Kingdom, Poland, and, as recounted by legend mentioned a moment ago, the early American Colonies. Bear in mind, Sir, that he can speak approximately 10,200 languages and dialects, both human and extraterrestrial. Evidently, Dr. Soong was attempting to warn us of C.O.C.C.H.I.’s impending activity.”

LaForge: “A message in a bottle, sir.”

Picard: “A good analogy, Mr. LaForge. Mr. Worf, were you able to decipher anything pertaining to tactical characteristics or weaponry?”

Worf: “Sir, The probe itself was benign, but it did reveal that just before its launch, C.O.C.C.H.I. rendered Dr. Soong unconscious. C.O.C.C.H.I. then activated temporal displacement protocols to travel to the times – and locations – enumerated in the probe’s records.”

Picard: “Mr. Worf, did you bring the device?”

Worf: “Yes, Sir.” (Worf reaches into his Security Pack and withdraws a small, green-and-silver metallic object)

Picard: “Would you hand it to Mr. Data? Mr. Data, would you travel back to the era and get to bottom of this
situation? (gravely) Be extremely careful with this Temporal Transporter; it was provided by Daniels and carries the highest security protocols. It will allow you to travel anywhere in the Quadrant 1,000 years into the future or past with a time displacement accuracy of + or – 0.002 percent; it has a geographic accuracy of + or – 1 meter.”

Data: “Yes, Sir. I would be -

(Picard’s door chime sounds again) “Come!” (the door swishes open to reveal Reginald Barclay standing while holding a large orange tabby cat)

Barclay: “Excuse me Captain, gentlemen; we had a wanderer in the Jefferie’s Tubes.”

Picard: (annoyed) Mr. Data! Please keep a better eye on your feline!”

Data: “My apologies, Sir. Apparently, Spot has learned to leap to activate the door device. I will initiate a lockout to prohibit random egress from my quarters.” (gazing affectionately at Spot after taking her from Barclay, who exits Ready Room) “Spot, I must perform a mission. I will be careful and will return as soon as possible.” (stroking Spot’s chin) “Cocchi-Cocchi-Coo, Cocchi-Cocchi-Coo, Cocchi-Cocchi-Coo, Cocchi -”

Picard: (sharply) “Mr. Data!”

Data: “I am sorry, Sir. I am attempting to emulate differing human techniques of endearment. I am exploring the many expressions humans employ to express affection towards their loved ones – in fact, I –“

Picard: “Not now, Mr. Data.”

Data: “Of course, Captain.”

Picard: “Let us all meet again at 0100 Hours. In the meantime, Mr. LaForge, you and Mr. Data calculate the optimum temporal models for this mission. I want to be absolutely sure that there is minimum chance for error here! Mr. Worf, I want you to outfit Mr. Data with any appropriate defenses he may need, and provide him with period clothing; I believe you have some pattern replication expertise in this subject.”

Worf: “Aye, Sir.”

Picard: “Thank you, gentlemen. Dismissed!”

Soft fade-out of scene…

Fade-in Graphic on screen: “To Be Continued…”

Voiceover: “Stay tuned for previews of next week’s episode of ‘Star Trek – The Next Generation.’”

(Fade to commercial break)

[billl]

I enjoyed that, ERS. The only thing that seemed a bit off was Whorf using words like "self-explanatory".

[ERS]

Billl -

Glad you enjoyed.
Worf had just attended an English enunciation and diction class given by Troi!
I have heard his existing - albeit rare - erudition.

:)

[yanni]

A craptastic science fiction conclusion to Goethe's one and only proktophantasmist.

My compliments.

[Musicology]

Let's face it, one of the Cocchi clan (that loyal breed of servants devoted to musical obscurantism and to furthering cultural propaganda and who were spread like margarine in high places across the face of much of musical Europe over several generations) must have had a 'Marchand experience'.* Probably due to one of them attending a JS Bach concert. (The experience proving to be too humbling and so contrary to his education that he rushed back in shame to his sponsor by the first available coach) . Replaced soon afterwards by his cousin, or perhaps by his alias. (?)

J.S. Bach
Orchestral Suite 4
Overture
BWV 1069/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukupdxyt7xo&feature=related

(* 'Marchand Experience' *- the name given to an embarrassed, alienated and suppressed feeling of a kind recommended to no-one. Which occurs when first coming in to contact with musical reality of an extraordinary kind during highly funded campaigns of musical misinformation and other occultist counter-reformation activity. Based on the experience of well publicised and much praised Jesuit organist Louis Marchand (1669-1732) who, when commissioned to publicly challenge JS Bach to an organ duel in September 1717 in Dresden and when that challenge was immediately accepted. With less than desirable effects for the reputation of the said Monsieur Marchand who left by the first coach for Paris).

('Dictionary of Making the Rough Musical Places Straight' - Vol. 1. p. 377)

[yanni]

You are obviously suffering, Robert!

Here is something to cheer you up, courtesy http://wikicompany.org/wiki/911:Prominent_masons, so that you may finish your Mozart wurst,:

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Various notes:
Life: 1756–1791
Robert Newman research into the "Mozart conspiracy"
His upcoming book "The Manufacture of Mozart" (Now canceled? If so, why?)
"I am specially interested in the relationship between writers of Mozart's time with the Jesuit Order, since, it seems to me, 'Enlightenment' philosophers such as Voltaire and Rousseau (both hugely important to the Mozart story) were themselves strangely allied during their own lifetimes with the controlling aims of Jesuit Order, even beyond 1773. Indeed, the 'Englightenment' as a movement seems to have been a Jesuit-led strategy which flourished after the same Jesuit Order was officially annulled in 1773. So that the rise of what is generally called 'secularism' in the name of the 'Enlightenment' was very much controlled, orchestrated, and even defined by the deliberate rise of adoration for Rousseau and Voltaire (both of whom had close relationships to the Jesuits and to the fraternities which emerged after 1773). Mozart's relationship with the Encyclopaedists, Diderot, Grimm and others, D'Epinay and others are clear evidence of such a relationship. In 1778 Mozart's Paris patron during his stay there was the same Baron Grimm. I am sure (and have much supporting evidence) that the musical career of Mozart was almost entirely manufactured, falsified, even from the time of his childhood onward by the fraternities of the Holy Roman Empire, this involving the supply to Mozart (even after his death in 1791) of music he never composed but which, being published and performed in his name as 'evidence of his genius', eventually, led to a Mozart-dominated musicology, the hijacking of historical reality, the destruction of musicology itself, and the control of what is taught and believed on music in this important period of musical history. The musical evidence (from manuscripts etc etc) is now very clear. And other researchers are increasingly agreeing with this view. In my research over the past 15 years or so I have become more and more certain of all the above. Certain too that the secret fraternities of western Europe (such as the Rosicrucians, the Freemasons, the Illuminatists) have invented idols of their own, of which Mozart was one, so that they could, by controlling their mythical status in the academic world, shape and even define our 'education' far more than is generally realised." [24]

[24]: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636

PS Proktophantasmist (griech.), einer, der infolge von Unterleibskrankheiten an Halluzinationen leidet. So say the germans at least, but they don't really want to know.My own interpretation of Goethe's proktophantasmist (ie Nicolai/De Nicolay/Rousseau/Kant) is: One whose theories on metaphysics are worth "sh*t".

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Your post reminds me to use the opening lines of Martin Luther's remarkable book, 'Bondage of the Will' (1525) - which contains the most brilliant (and detailed) reply to the cowardly dogmas of the Roman theologian Erasmus. I paraphrase where Luther writes -

''Because it has taken me so long to answer your writings, contrary to the expectation of everyone, (and even contrary to my own custom) some may, perhaps, wonder at such a new and unusual thing, this long delay in me not responding to various taunts, to the letters of adversaries, who already celebrate their victory - so it may even appear I have been silenced and cannot open my mouth. Here, however, is my reply'' -

(I have definitely NOT given up writing 'The Manufacture of Mozart'. But, for sure, it will take months longer to finish than I had supposed. You may suffer to hear this news, Yanni and may suffer a little more).

But help is always near - merely unscrew the bottle and take a teaspoon of this - it will do you much good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ9qWpa2rIg&feature=related

Regards

RN






You are obviously suffering, Robert!

Here is something to cheer you up, so that you may finish your Mozart wurst, courtesy http://wikicompany.org/wiki/911:Prominent_masons:


Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Various notes:
Life: 1756–1791
Robert Newman research into the "Mozart conspiracy"
His upcoming book "The Manufacture of Mozart" (Now canceled? If so, why?)
"I am specially interested in the relationship between writers of Mozart's time with the Jesuit Order, since, it seems to me, 'Enlightenment' philosophers such as Voltaire and Rousseau (both hugely important to the Mozart story) were themselves strangely allied during their own lifetimes with the controlling aims of Jesuit Order, even beyond 1773. Indeed, the 'Englightenment' as a movement seems to have been a Jesuit-led strategy which flourished after the same Jesuit Order was officially annulled in 1773. So that the rise of what is generally called 'secularism' in the name of the 'Enlightenment' was very much controlled, orchestrated, and even defined by the deliberate rise of adoration for Rousseau and Voltaire (both of whom had close relationships to the Jesuits and to the fraternities which emerged after 1773). Mozart's relationship with the Encyclopaedists, Diderot, Grimm and others, D'Epinay and others are clear evidence of such a relationship. In 1778 Mozart's Paris patron during his stay there was the same Baron Grimm. I am sure (and have much supporting evidence) that the musical career of Mozart was almost entirely manufactured, falsified, even from the time of his childhood onward by the fraternities of the Holy Roman Empire, this involving the supply to Mozart (even after his death in 1791) of music he never composed but which, being published and performed in his name as 'evidence of his genius', eventually, led to a Mozart-dominated musicology, the hijacking of historical reality, the destruction of musicology itself, and the control of what is taught and believed on music in this important period of musical history. The musical evidence (from manuscripts etc etc) is now very clear. And other researchers are increasingly agreeing with this view. In my research over the past 15 years or so I have become more and more certain of all the above. Certain too that the secret fraternities of western Europe (such as the Rosicrucians, the Freemasons, the Illuminatists) have invented idols of their own, of which Mozart was one, so that they could, by controlling their mythical status in the academic world, shape and even define our 'education' far more than is generally realised." [24]

[24]: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636

PS Proktophantasmist (griech.), einer, der infolge von Unterleibskrankheiten an Halluzinationen leidet. So say the germans at least, but they don't really want to know.My own interpretation of Goethe's proktophamtasmist (ie Nicolai/De Nicolay/Rousseau/Kant) is: One whose theories on metaphysics are worth "sh*t".

[yanni]

Indeed, Robert, as a lifelong classical-music-fan/consummer, eversince I learned of your coming book on Mozart/Nissen I lost my sleep in anticipation.

Regards!

:Angel_anim:

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni,

The book is not on Mozart/Nissen. It's an expose of the cardboard world that eventually became (and still is) the musical pantheon of western culture, focusing in particular on the engineered life, career and iconic status of the 'genius' composer W.A. Mozart. Featuring a cast of thousands who, by convention, are entirely suppressed from the record. An antidote to those who consider ourselves cultured and educated at the same time by 'Amadeus'. With it's famous trailer saying, 'Everything you've heard is true'. Otherwise known as 'Musical History without the History'. LOL !



Indeed, Robert, as a lifelong classical-music-fan/consummer, eversince I learned of your coming book on Mozart/Nissen I lost my sleep in anticipation.

Regards!

:Angel_anim:

[yanni]

Praised be the Luther, the Handel, the Bach, the Kant, the Churchill and all other Lords of H.M's Admiralty.

Alellujah!

PS1:To Robert: My Xmas gift to you, the historian/musicologist, is another puzzle yet: To interpret the link between Ded Moroz, the Russian alternative to Santa Claus the Finn, and Tad Morose, the swedish heavy metal group!

PS2:To site administrator: Stop fiddling with the viewers number- or at least do it less obviously!



Thank you Yanni,

The book is not on Mozart/Nissen. It's an expose of the cardboard world that eventually became (and still is) the musical pantheon of western culture, focusing in particular on the engineered life, career and iconic status of the 'genius' composer W.A. Mozart. Featuring a cast of thousands who, by convention, are entirely suppressed from the record. An antidote to those who consider ourselves cultured and educated at the same time by 'Amadeus'. With it's famous trailer saying, 'Everything you've heard is true'. Otherwise known as 'Musical History without the History'. LOL !

[Musicology]

No, Yanni. It seems you have not yet learned praise is NOT due to human beings in any of the cases you refer to. And especially not in the case of Herr GF Handel, the Churchill's or any of the Lords of HM Admiralty. (Praising other humans is very boring and leads only to icons, dogmatism, academic dogma, the suppression of facts, media manipulation, exaggeration and misinformation). It has been the fraternal counterfeit of reality for two centuries, has presided over a system of academic and cultural control and is unworthy of your time and talents. Or mine.

Some humans chose to be honest. Others did not. Some serve mankind and others choose not to. And the good news is that, in the end, this is what counts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aTfAKBG-RA&feature=related

Regards






Praised be the Luther, the Handel, the Bach, the Kant, the Churchill and all other Lords of H.M's Admiralty.

Alellujah!

PS1:To Robert: My Xmas gift to you, the historian/musicologist, is another puzzle yet: To interpret the link between Ded Moroz, the Russian alternative to Santa Claus the Finn, and Tad Morose, the swedish heavy metal group!

PS2:To site administrator: Stop fiddling with the viewers number- or at least do it less obviously!

[yanni]

Don't know about you, Robert, but I simply cannot survive without the wise councel of Luther and the divine music of Bach.

And do excuse me for including the Churchills but they did support Bach during his stay in London-as Handel/Amyand-did they not?

Birds of a feather, so to speak, banking and the admiralty included.

Seems you didn't like the wrapping of my Xmas present too.

Anyway, best of luck with your Mozart manufacture!

[Musicology]

You were going to show us some evidence in support of your idea that G F Handel was JS Bach (and vice-versa). How unfortunate you've provided absolutely none so far. I seem to remember we spent several weeks on it. During which time I produced evidence of the time that G.F. Handel was a known musical plagiarist in London and in Germany. From the writings of his own contemporaries. Who was being supported by Rome. And by various Italian composers also. You were also refered to several publications on the extent of Handel's musical plagiarism. And in reply you have failed to show any Bach/Handel evidence. You simply repeat the mantra (after a period of silence) that 'Bach was Handel'. Hoping somebody, somewhere, will believe it. Right ? You were asked to say which of the many children (all of whom were baptised with the name of JS Bach as their father) were actually fathered by G.F. Handel. But there was no reply from you on this also. It did not increase your credibility. That's what we like Yanni - more of your devastating 'evidence' !!!

I will resist the temptation of repeating myself. LOL !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFrwDNzdTnE&feature=related



Don't know about you, Robert, but I simply cannot survive without the wise councel of Luther and the divine music of Bach.

And do excuse me for including the Churchills but they did support Bach during his stay in London-as Handel/Amyand-did they not?

Birds of a feather, so to speak, banking and the admiralty included.

Seems you didn't like the wrapping of my Xmas present too.

Anyway, best of luck with your Mozart manufacture!

[yanni]

Allow me to remind you Robert that following the Nicolai/de Nicolay/Kant own revelations and diagnosis on the opera phantom's proctitis and causes, this subject was declared closed ie successfully terminated with yourtruly's curiosity well satisfied.

You had your chance to patch up your conventional grove-ling "truth" but alas at the expense and to the detriment of your Mozart salami (as per public opinion, post 304 above).

Take care, keep well, good luck!

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

We must never let basic facts (and the absence of them) get in the way of a convoluted story. It seems we have fallen in exhaustion over the winning line -GF Handel is JS Bach in the same way that a horse is a sewing machine !

Concerto BWV 1053/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJrsKRAGwTA


Allow me to remind you Robe

rt that following the Nicolai/de Nicolay/Kant own revelations and diagnosis on the opera phantom's proctitis and causes, this subject was declared closed ie successfully terminated with yourtruly's curiosity well satisfied.

You had your chance to patch up your conventional grove-ling "truth" but alas at the expense and to the detriment of your Mozart salami (as per public opinion, post 304 above).

Take care, keep well, good luck!

[yanni]

'The task of cultured people nowdays is to raise doubts and not collect certainties'-Norberto Bobbio

Back to Bach....and your remarkable failure to fulfill the terms of the challenge you publicaly accepted in this thread: to prove that he was a different person than Handel* by finding one single instance that they ever were at a different place at any given date throughout "their" lives. Many before you tried do the same and failed as well.

Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiKGXF_tXWc


*or any other of his aliases ie Claude Amyand, Ant.Cocchi, Ger. van Swieten.

[Musicology]

Between 1708 and 1742 (through 2 marriages) J.S. Bach had no less than 20 (twenty) children, only 10 of whom lived in to adulthood. The father's name of all 20 of these was given as J.S. Bach. That is a documentary/verifiable fact. Their births were recorded in every case.

How many of those babies of J.S. Bach were conceived while G.F. Handel and J.S. Bach were in the same place ? Answer ? Zero.

Yanni will now show us differently, yes ?

You want a single instance when Handel and Bach ever were at a different place at any given date throughout their lives. You now have 20 instances to choose from !!!!! TWENTY !!!!!

Game Over Yanni ! These facts are unanswerable. They exist specially for men like Yanni. And I've asked about them before without an answer.

Looking forward to your reply.



Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_JS_Bach's_children's_names#ixzz15zwwL3t4


'The task of cultured people nowdays is to raise doubts and not collect certainties'-Norberto Bobbio

Back to Bach....and your remarkable failure to fulfill the terms of the challenge you publicaly accepted in this thread: to prove that he was a different person than Handel* by finding one single instance that they ever were at a different place at any given date throughout "their" lives. Many before you tried do the same and failed as well.

Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiKGXF_tXWc


*or any other of his aliases ie Claude Amyand, Ant.Cocchi, Ger. van Swieten.

[yanni]

Your failure to face up to the clearly defined challenge you accepted a while back in this thread cannot be remedied by another volley of grove-ling nonsense!

[Musicology]

LOL !

Cantata
BWV 177/1
Opening Chorus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU3VtZB-c3g

Concerto
BWV 1043/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_xOdd3pIk&feature=related

Concerto
BWV 1064/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMWndkRnHZw&feature=related


Your failure to face up to the clearly defined challenge you accepted a while back in this thread cannot be remedied by another volley of grove-ling nonsense!

[yanni]

Robert,

Thanks for bringing Caruso's 'ridi, pagliaccio' to my mind!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL7wdUPXpiM

Compliments for your ERS finale, Gilliat.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Let's face it, one of the Cocchi clan (that loyal breed of servants devoted to musical obscurantism and to furthering cultural propaganda and who were spread like margarine in high places across the face of much of musical Europe over several generations)


You are obviously suffering, Robert!

Here is something to cheer you up, courtesy
Robert Newman research into the "Mozart conspiracy"
His upcoming book "The Manufacture of Mozart" (Now canceled? If so, why?)



Yanni,

Your post reminds me to use the opening lines of Martin Luther's remarkable book, 'Bondage of the Will' (1525) - which contains the most brilliant (and detailed) reply to the cowardly dogmas of the Roman theologian Erasmus. I paraphrase where Luther writes -




Indeed, Robert, as a lifelong classical-music-fan/consummer, eversince I learned of your coming book on Mozart/Nissen I lost my sleep in anticipation.

Regards!



Thank you Yanni,

The book is not on Mozart/Nissen. It's an expose of the cardboard world that eventually became (and still is) the musical pantheon of western culture, focusing in particular on the engineered life, career and iconic status of the 'genius' composer W.A. Mozart.


Praised be the Luther, the Handel, the Bach, the Kant, the Churchill and all other Lords of H.M's Admiralty.



No, Yanni. It seems you have not yet learned praise is NOT due to human beings in any of the cases you refer to. And especially not in the case of Herr GF Handel, the Churchill's or any of the Lords of HM Admiralty.
Regards


And do excuse me for including the Churchills but they did support Bach during his stay in London-as Handel/Amyand-did they not?

Anyway, best of luck with your Mozart manufacture!


You were going to show us some evidence in support of your idea that G F Handel was JS Bach (and vice-versa).


You had your chance to patch up your conventional grove-ling "truth" but alas at the expense and to the detriment of your Mozart salami (as per public opinion, post 304 above).



Yes Yanni,

We must never let basic facts (and the absence of them) get in the way of a convoluted story. It seems we have fallen in exhaustion over the winning line -GF Handel is JS Bach in the same way that a horse is a sewing machine !



Gentlemen please!
I can no longer bear witness to such verbal assaults tearing each other asunder. I implore you; hold thy tongue, blanch the bitter words with a chilled Riesling.

References to Churchill are right and fitting. Therefore let us heed the words of “The Last Lion”:
“Never before in the field of musicologists, have so many owed so much to you two”

Yanni,
Let us not begrudge Robert for tapping the brakes on getting his book published. After all, adding a couple of chapters on Coronado’s role in the manufacturing process will take time. I for one, and the community of Dumas, applaud Robert for his courage in having second thoughts.

Robert,
Let us sip the wine of civility and open our minds to the possibilities of Bachandel. Once again, Churchill’s wisdom may provide the answer to solving the riddle…”…I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.”
Have you ever read Chrichton my friend? DNA…DNA will lead the way. Traces must exist, perhaps blood on a string from playing pizzicato, tears on a sheet of music or sweat on the organ keys.



Regards,
Gilliatt

[Musicology]

Yanni is right of course. (Although what, exactly, he is right about must remain unknown). His is a triumph of obscurantism refuted only by the obvious and by what may be seen in broad daylight.

BWV 207/1-2

Auf, schmetternde töne der muntern trompeten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m35EAzi1h4Y

[yanni]

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_vision_device.

[Musicology]

'No, not done in a corner nor in darkness but before the whole world'

BWV 130

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-AInuUAaRg&feature=related

:seeya:

[yanni]

Please yourself in public if you must, Robert.

The fact is your "Mozart Conspiracy" claim was being ridiculed all around (http://www.topix.com/forum/music/classical/TKV7LQLQFV593LJKP/p3) until you brought it to this site (along with a second Nissen just in case) to be then provided with- and be overwhelmed by-all "missing dots" which you then tried but failed to dispute.

The existence of another Robert Newman, stockbrocker and manager of Covent Garden and Queen's Hall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Newman_(impresario) provides the answer as to your biases if not motives.

Allelujah!

[Musicology]

The fact is Yanni every change is ridiculed. By those who have consumed and taught myth and have never once thought for themselves. By those whose musical landscape omits the lives and careers of 3,000 composers of the 18th century. They and their music. By those who have never critically examined what they themselves have consumed. That's normal. It's even called 'education' and 'culture'. And it's as useless as the myth of Isis and Osiris. 'Dumbing down' is the norm these days. It pays mortgages and keeps occultists and hidden fraternal hands in charge of student 'education' and the curriculum. The fact is you don't know the subject of Mozart or of the manufactured pantheon of western 'music history' - by your own admission. The fact is the Handel/Bach invention is complete nonsense and is only a 'red herring' surrounded by smoke and mirrors. Unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. The fact is there are dozens of Robert Newmans. And the fact is you cannot tell us how G.F. Handel fathered any of the 20 children born to the Bach family as you claim. Despite being repeatedly asked to produce a timeline in support of the contrary evidence. Notice the silence ?

No answer ? As usual. I think we have established you have no evidence to offer. It doesn't phase you at all. Can we please have some more obscurantism from you ? To divert us from reality. You are so GOOD at it Yanni ! Where did you learn this stuff ? In the fraternities or at the school of Mozart mythology ? Laugh at your own nonsense. It will do you good.

Beethoven Parody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l3hq4G1iHs



Please yourself in public if you must, Robert.

The fact is your "Mozart Conspiracy" claim was being ridiculed all around (http://www.topix.com/forum/music/classical/TKV7LQLQFV593LJKP/p3) until you brought it to this site (along with a second Nissen just in case) to be then provided with- and overwhelmed by-all "missing dots" which you then tried but failed to dispute.

The existence of another Robert Newman, stockbrocker and manager of Covent Garden and Queen's Hall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Newman_(impresario) provides the answer as to your biases if not motives.

Allelujah!

[yanni]

Keep on doing what you do best, Robert!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The global control of schools and universities in respect of what is taught and considered to be 'convention' is not some imagined conspiracy theory. It is a plain fact.

It's a plain fact that academic subjects such as musical and artistic history are closely controlled internationally these days by universities, publishers, education ministers, broadcasters, presidents of colleges, committees, and others. With patronage in these areas reserved for compliant organisations and withheld from those who dissent. With the school curriculum and its content engineered for generations of students.

I provide 2 of many powerful proofs of this fact. The first contained in the little known 'Roerich Pact', signed in Washington, USA April 1935 by then President of the USA, Franklin D Roosevelt, and by his Secretary of State, Cordell Hall. Signed first by 21 representatives of the nations of North and South America at that time. Entitled, 'Protection of Artistic and Scientific Institutions and Historic Monuments'. This cultural control movement was later embedded within the Hague Treaty of 1954 when it was also signed by representatives of virtually every other country of the entire world. The United Nations approved control, in fact, of what is taught and believed in academic, scientific, historical and cultural areas. As part of a global policy of education and 'culture'.

Involving (amongst other things) protection of museums, exhibitions, centres of study, reading material, what is taught and published. Conservatism with a capital 'C'. Further evidence, in fact, of the occultist takeover of our history, education and culture. Worldwide.

http://www.roerich.org/nr_RPact.html

[yanni]

J.S. Bach apparently said "[Handel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach."

Mozart is reputed to have said of him, "Handel understands effect better than any of us. When he chooses, he strikes like a thunder bolt" and to Beethoven he was "the master of us all...the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head and kneel before his tomb." The latter emphasised above all the simplicity and popular appeal of Handel's music when he said, "Go to him to learn how to achieve great effects, by such simple means."

He is commemorated as a musician in the Calendar of Saints of the Lutheran Church on July 28, with J.S. Bach and Heinrich Schütz.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Handel.htm

Praised be the (Lutheran) Lord!

[Musicology]

Isn't that a strange thing for Bach to say if, in fact, he and Handel were always the same person ?

But, whether the Lutheran church commemorates these or other men is of course an irrelevance. What is true will transcend them. That is what gives them their value.

Orchestral Suite No. 1 (Overture)
Arranged for Accordians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4_NdmKIbqA&feature=related


J.S. Bach apparently said "[Handel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach."

Mozart is reputed to have said of him, "Handel understands effect better than any of us. When he chooses, he strikes like a thunder bolt" and to Beethoven he was "the master of us all...the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head and kneel before his tomb." The latter emphasised above all the simplicity and popular appeal of Handel's music when he said, "Go to him to learn how to achieve great effects, by such simple means."

He is commemorated as a musician in the Calendar of Saints of the Lutheran Church on July 28, with J.S. Bach and Heinrich Schütz.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Handel.htm

Praised be the (Lutheran) Lord!

[yanni]

Common sense would find the inverse choice of labels as better fitting:

"Of irrelevance" what Bach's "sources" claim he said on Handel (or anything/anybody else for that matter) and "strange" the Lutheran church's choice to commemorate Handel/Bach on the same day!

My compliments for your performance, Robert!

[Musicology]

On October 26th of each year the same Lutheran church commemorates the lives and careers of no less than three hymn writers - Philip Nicolai (1556-1608), Johann Heermann (1585-1647) and Paul Gerhardt (1607-1676).

Yanni has thus 'proved' (as only Yanni can !) these three hymn writers were the same man also. Someone should tell the Lutheran Church about this discovery.

'And then, with the most amazing interweaving of parts, this music began' (Contemporary Report - Leipzig).

JS Bach
Orchestral Suite No. 1 (Overture)
Arranged for Piano Accordians etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4_Nd...eature=related

:crash:

[yanni]

As any reader may see, evidence leading to the conclusion Bach and Handel were the same person has been presented long before this last post, Robert, which (last post) mainly serves to highlight your worthy talents in the world's oldest art. Bravo!

Otherwise:

Bach's alleged quote (on Handel being ' the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach') is one out of many indications of the overall control Bach's "sources" excercised during the critical times and suffering their conspiracies caused, allowing for their excessive confidence and ironic humor, joking even with their own family secret.

'When the saints go marching in': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyLjbMBpGDA

[Musicology]

So the following three hymn writers, commemorated each October 26th by the Lutheran church, are NOT the same man ?

Philip Nicolai (1556-1608),
Johann Heermann (1585-1647)
Paul Gerhardt (1607-1676).

And what makes you think commemoration of composers J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel and Heinrich Schutz each 28th July by the same Lutheran church are proof/evidence of THEM being the same man ?

- Radio Silence -

Johann Friedrich Fasch (1688-1758)
Concerto in D Minor
Second and Third Movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOG1RGAvOAs&feature=related

[yanni]

I hope you only lost your glasses, if not: Speedy recovery!

[Musicology]

I was not born with glasses. And, I'm happy to say, there came a time when my sight was better and when I took them off to see things more clearly.

Regards

Robert


Johann Friedrich Fasch (1688-1758)
Concerto in D Minor
Second and Third Movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOG1R...eature=related



I hope you only lost your glasses, if not: Speedy recovery!

[yanni]

I am glad your eyesight improved.

Try http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/germany/preu17861807.html , if you can, to refresh your view on events during 1786-1807 leading to Bach's resurrection on Handel's expense:

Cultural History . J.C. Wöllner, appointed minister of culture and justice, attempted to combat enlightenment (Edict on Religion 1788; a restrictive Edict on Censorship 1789). Magazines regarded as promoters of the enlightenment, such as Nicolai's Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek were ordered to cease publication (1794). Even Immanuel Kant was obliged no longer to speak or write on religion (1794). Wöllner was dismissed by King Friedrich Wilhelm III. upon ascending to the throne (1797).
In 1789, Mozart visited Berlin, but rejected an offer to become royal court composer.
Under Friedrich Wilhelm II., Carl Gotthard Langhans constructed the Brandenburg Gate (1788-1791). Johann Gottfried Schadow sculptured the Quadriga, placed on top of the Brandenburg Gate.
Kant published Kritik der Urteilskraft (1790); Wilhelm von Humboldt wrote Versuch, die Wirksamkeit des Staates zu bestimmen, in which he suggested the State to reduce her activities to a minimum (1792); the manuscript was published only in 1851. In 1795 Kant published Zum ewigen Frieden (On Eternal Peace), criticizing the Treaty of Basel.
With Friedrich Wilhelm III., the anti-enlightenment policy introduced by his predecessor was terminated. With Friedrich Wilhelm III. living a bourgeois lifestyle and the court becoming less extravagant, the salon of Rahel Levin Varnhagen became the center of cultural life in Berlin. Henriette Herz hosted another famous salon. In 1803, Ernst Moritz Arndt published Versuch einer Geschichte der Leibeigenschaft in Pommern und Rügen (Attempt to a history of Servitude in Pomerania and Rügen), an attempt to kindle a discussion of the question of the serfs.

Ta-ta!



I was not born with glasses. And, I'm happy to say, there came a time when my sight was better and when I took them off to see things more clearly.

Regards

Robert


Johann Friedrich Fasch (1688-1758)
Concerto in D Minor
Second and Third Movements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOG1R...eature=related

[Musicology]

Nonsense !

GF Handel was buried in Westminster Abbey alongside kings and queens. Festivals of his music were main features of musical life in Germany and England for many decades. The late 18th and 19th century is full of Handel Festivals. Including major and early ones in London. The Halifax Choral Society is one of the oldest choral societies in the world (founded in 1817) and it was one of dozens of the kind founded on performing works attributed to Handel. Who enjoyed a reputation that was already immense before the revival of Bach's music.

Tell us when the first Vienna public concert of works entirely by JS Bach was given ?

a) 1720 ?

b) 1820 ?

c) 1920 ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjRs8WvFc88

[yanni]

The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions.Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

[Musicology]

We must never justify, blame or deny anything. We must, in short, learn to assert nothing other than sheer nonsense. We must all become compliant consumers of the corporate myth. So that the 'theory of cognitive dissonance' can continue to confuse and educate the entire world and is enforced upon all of us. With us none the wiser. Right ?

As for psychology it was never a science in the first place. So much for its 'theories'. (I think the word is 'hogwash').

Josef Haydn (attributed to)
Minuet and Finale
Symphony No. 104
'London'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOqbN4XwmlM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVqsqv0-sLI&feature=related



The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance. They do this by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and actions.Dissonance is also reduced by justifying, blaming, and denying. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

[yanni]

So you don't like grapes, huh?


....the premise of the fox that covets inaccessible grapes is taken to stand for a person who attempts to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously. In that case, the disdain the fox expresses for the grapes at the conclusion to the fable serves at least to diminish the dissonance even if the behaviour in fact remains irrational.

[Musicology]

Would you care to explain that in plain English ?

In the meantime -

Josef Haydn (attr).
Symphony No. 92
1st Movement
'Oxford'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBBW7Ya8VtI&feature=related


So you don't like grapes, huh?


....the premise of the fox that covets inaccessible grapes is taken to stand for a person who attempts to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously. In that case, the disdain the fox expresses for the grapes at the conclusion to the fable serves at least to diminish the dissonance even if the behaviour in fact remains irrational.

[yanni]

'The secret of being tiresome is to tell everything'-Voltaire!



Would you care to explain that in plain English ?

In the meantime -

Josef Haydn (attr).
Symphony No. 92
1st Movement
'Oxford'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBBW7Ya8VtI&feature=related

[Musicology]

With respect to Monsieur Voltaire, the secret of being tiresome is to tell everything and say nothing.

Claude Debussy
Tarentelle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXpfUl8O83A&feature=related



'The secret of being tiresome is to tell everything'-Voltaire!

[yanni]

With respect to Monsieur Voltaire, the secret of being tiresome is to tell everything and say nothing.


I don't know about you but Aesop and Voltaire both are still widely read and appreciated as authors.

[Musicology]

An author of train timetables is appreciated and widely read also.

Claude Debussy
Arabesque 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Qi4jLtigc




I don't know about you but Aesop and Voltaire both are still widely read and appreciated as authors.

[yanni]

Yes, that's another road to success, certainly, but finish your "Mozart" first!


An author of train timetables is appreciated and widely read also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Qi4jLtigc

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni

Maurice Ravel
Le Tombeau de Couperin
Minuet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9qxygpFTos&feature=related



Yes, that's another road to success, certainly, but finish your "Mozart" first!

[yanni]

Don't even mention it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKlHABc8HTE



Thank you Yanni

[MANICHAEAN]

Sorry to intrude in on this particular topic in such an abrupt manner, but do either of you gentlemen have a view on such mundane matters as the FIFA Stitch Up, or Russian Honey Traps for errant British MP's?

[Musicology]

Hi Manichaean,

I figure it must have something to do with the fact the word 'govern' means, 'to rule over', and the word 'ment' means 'mind' - so I can only assume FIFA and British MP's are two examples of what controls our minds - if we allow them.

'GOVERN MENT' loves us ! Of this we may be sure. They would never lie to us. But why must I seek a painless divorce ?? And find one - though on another planet ? :biggrin5:

And here, of sound mind - reminding me of a time when I heard them, in London.

BWV 1065/1
English Concert
Trevor Pinnock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA1L0SsEXxU&feature=related

And -

BWV 1063/3
English Concert
Trevor Pinnock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrKyhgtOBA&feature=related


Sorry to intrude in on this particular topic in such an abrupt manner, but do either of you gentlemen have a view on such mundane matters as the FIFA Stitch Up, or Russian Honey Traps for errant British MP's?

[MANICHAEAN]

Dear Musicology

My plodding steps are somewhat at variance with your free wheeling, mountain goat leaps of imagery. Do you come from Irish stock?

Your response seemed to start off slowly enough with a word structure analysis that was much appreciated. But then, something seemed to kick in as you progressed with remorseless acceleration into dealing with divorce and outer space!

The finale of Bach was divine.

Thank you so much.
M.

[yanni]

Scottish Widows has been helping people prepare for the future since 1815.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaJg2MGOlYw&feature=related

[Musicology]

17th Century English Hymn
John Bunyan (1622-1688)
'Who would true valour see' ?
:nod:


Who would true Valour see
Let him come hither;
One here will Constant be,
Come Wind, come Weather.
There's no Discouragement,
Shall make him once Relent,
His first avow'd Intent,
To be a Pilgrim.

Who so beset him round,
With dismal Storys,
Do but themselves Confound;
His Strength the more is.
No Lyon can him fright,
He'l with a Gyant Fight,
But he will have a right,
To be a Pilgrim.

Hobgoblin, nor foul Fiend,
Can daunt his Spirit:
He knows, he at the end,
Shall Life Inherit.
Then Fancies fly away,
He'l fear not what men say,
He'l labour Night and Day,
To be a Pilgrim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOPW-9mSw8Y




Scottish Widows has been helping people prepare for the future since 1815.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaJg2MGOlYw&feature=related

[Musicology]

Michael Praetorius (1571-1621)
Terpsichore (1612)
(Spagnoletta, Bourree)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eicxEAhOxYc&feature=related

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Gentlemen please!
I can no longer bear witness to such verbal assaults tearing each other asunder...

Robert,
Let us sip the wine of civility and open our minds to the possibilities of Bachandel. Once again, Churchill’s wisdom may provide the answer to solving the riddle…”…I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat.”
Have you ever read Chrichton my friend? DNA…DNA will lead the way. Traces must exist, perhaps blood on a string from playing pizzicato, tears on a sheet of music or sweat on the organ keys.


Yanni, I was only half joking regarding my DNA reference. Seriously, is it possible to take samples of DNA from what we presume to be Bach's remains and Handel's remains to have them analyzed? This may prove whether or not, they are one in the same person.


17th Century English Hymn
John Bunyan (1622-1688)
'Who would true valour see' ?

Who would true Valour see
Let him come hither;
One here will Constant be,
Come Wind, come Weather.
There's no Discouragement,
Shall make him once Relent,
His first avow'd Intent,
To be a Pilgrim.

Who so beset him round,
With dismal Storys,
Do but themselves Confound;
His Strength the more is.
No Lyon can him fright,
He'l with a Gyant Fight,
But he will have a right,
To be a Pilgrim.

Hobgoblin, nor foul Fiend,
Can daunt his Spirit:
He knows, he at the end,
Shall Life Inherit.
Then Fancies fly away,
He'l fear not what men say,
He'l labour Night and Day,
To be a Pilgrim.



Gentlemen, I like the new approach to this discussion.
remember this one?

The shaman wore a necromancer’s cloak
Mambrinos helmet placed on his head.
He began to pour the ashes out
The minstrel hermit lay down and read….
(end Gilliatt)

(Begin Scott):
“Not that, in sooth, o’er mortal urn
Those things inanimate can mourn,
But that the stream, the wood, the gale,
Is vocal with the plaintive wail
Of those who, else forgotten long,
Lived in the poet’s faithful song,
And, with the poets parting breath,
Whose memory feels a second death.
The maid’s pale shade, who wails her lot,
That love, true love should be forgot,
From rose and hawthorn shakes the tear
Upon the minstrel’s bier:
The phantom knight, his glory fled,
Mourns o’er the field he heaped with dead,
Mounts the wild blast that sweeps amain
And shrieks along the battle plain;
The chief whose antique crownlet long
Still sparkled in the feudal song,
Now, from the mountains misty throne,
Sees, in the thanedom once his own,
His ashes undistinguished lie,
His place, his power, his memory die;
His groans the lonely caverns fill,
His tears of rage impel the rill;
All mourn the minstrel’s harp unstrung,
Their name unknown, their praise unsung.”

(Sir Walter Scott – “Lay of the Last Minstrel”; Canto V, Part II)


.

[yanni]

Was Sir Walter Scott a partner in Scottish Widows?

Sir Walter Scott's Highland Widow: The Tragedy of the Highlands http://www.suite101.com/content/overviewsir-walter-scotts-highland-widow-a114096#ixzz17bAfUWuE

'To all, to each, a fair good-night, and pleasing dreams, and slumbers light.'

[Musicology]

MORE MOZART MYTHOLOGY

19th Century Librarian Letter
Civic Library
Bologna
Italy

Internal document by 19th century Librarian of the music Academy of Bologna, Italy. Recording that, contrary to myth, W.A. Mozart, during a musical examination taken in Bologna as a 14 year old boy during his visit to there of 12th October 1770 (when he wished to become a musical member of the Academy of Bologna), did NOT complete the required musical examination successfully. Also recording that the results were a musical failure for Mozart. And even describing what happened next. Padre Martini (a friend of the Mozart family there in Italy and essential for the growing reputation of the 'genius') re-wrote the exam paper FOR Mozart minutes afterwards (which Mozart then faithfully copied and submitted as his own entry for membership). This done as an act of friendship by Padre Martini so that Mozart could become a member. With only Mozart, his father and Padre Martini knowing this fact.

By 1846 (after a ton of other publications) this sequence of stage managed events had been forgotten by Mozart biographers and Mozart was routinely being credited with having passed the Bologna exam successfully on his own ! In fact both versions of what he wrote at Bologna still exist today showing the actual attempt by Mozart was filled with basic musical mistakes. These corrected by Martini before Mozart submitted the second (now corrected version) we know today. This is damning evidence (supported by other kinds) that during the early 1770’s W.A. Mozart as a teenager had still learned almost nothing of counterpoint and composition. A fact confirmed by other documentary evidence. The idea that he, within two years, is said to have written over 150 works in all forms (including serenades, sonatas, concertos, operas, etc) is patently absurd. At no point in his life did Mozart study music theory or composition in any detail.

First publication on the internet of an image of this letter. (Courtesy L. Bianchini, A. Taboga and staff of Civic Library of Bologna, Italy).

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

MORE MOZART MYTHOLOGY

19th Century Librarian Letter
Civic Library
Bologna
Italy

"...Padre Martini (a friend of the Mozart family there in Italy and essential for the reputation of the 'genius') re-wrote the exam paper FOR Mozart minutes afterwards (which Mozart then faithfully copied and submitted as his very own entry for membership). This done as an act of friendship by Padre Martini done so that Mozart could become a member. With only Mozart, his father and Padre Martini knowing this fact..."


Padre Martini !!
Now there's a blast from the past!
I remember him from the Sonata days back in Dumas...

“…The town Priest and teacher, Padre Martini remained seated at the table where he and the Terrier had been discussing the ominous events over the past few weeks. There was a strong bond between Jack Russell and the Padre. Padre Martini looked quite shaken but not stirred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUUq5mRCimo


.

[Silas Thorne]

...

“…The town Priest and teacher, Padre Martini remained seated at the table where he and the Terrier had been discussing the ominous events over the past few weeks. There was a strong bond between Jack Russell and the Padre. Padre Martini looked quite shaken but not stirred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUUq5mRCimo


.

:) Don't you mean the Jack Daniels Terrier? Though I'd imagine a lifetime of emnity between the two.

[Musicology]

Mozart was an inside job !

:santasmil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6koeS6wQHaA&feature=fvw

[Musicology]

Translation of above text - from Italian

'' (here) In Folio 2 and 3 are Antiphons written in autograph by Mozart himself who was a youngster and also a Knight who wanted to be a member of the Order of Philarmonica in Bologna. There is also a document written by Padre Martini of the 12th October of 1770 which show that, because that Antiphon was in four parts on a Cantus Firmus it did not obtain a great effect because it was made contrary to the rule of that style, so Padre Martini considered this examination produced by the hand of Mozart would not be accepted by those strict academics. Considering there would be many difficulties to admit Mozart, Padre Martini rewrote from the beginning to the end himself this same Antiphon proclaiming that it was actually produced by Mozart. So without problem Mozart was honoured with the diploma of Master composer and became a member of the Philarmonic Academic, despite the fact that he also not reached the age required by the rules of this Academy.

The version of the Antiphon published in the book of Peter Lichtenthal entitled ’Mozart and His Works’ (Milan, Ricordi - 1842, in 8, p. 14 and 15) is in fact the same as made by Padre Martini - it is not the original music written by Mozart in the rooms of the Academy. And also the diploma written by Padre Martini that was reproduced there is different in some parts to the original written by Padre Martini''

.
///

From Prelude and Fugue
BWV 998

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuQmB3yGimU&feature=related

[yanni]

The composer Dittersdorf(!)-http://www.hoasm.org/XIIC/Dittersdorf.html-noted in his biography* that Joseph II compared Mozart’s compositions to that of a gold snuffbox crafted in Paris(!!), while Joseph Haydn’s were those of a snuffbox finished off in London(!!!).

*His memoirs, Lebenbeschreibung, were published in Leipzig in 1801: http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Ditters+von+Dittersdorf,+Karl/Karl+Ditters+von+Dittersdorf+Lebensbeschreibung

[Musicology]

Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart, should have known. He was awarded papally approved membership of the Order of the Golden Spur in 1770, as was Abbe Georg Vogler and Mozart himself. In that same year.

Dittersdorf was closely associated with Count Giacommo Durazzo, the Venetian nobleman who hired Andrea Luchesi to be Kapellmeister at Bonn, a position wanted by Mozart himself. Dittersdorf was also closely associated with Esterhazy (cousin of Durazzo) by marriage and patron of Josef Haydn. (Whose own story has hardly been told).

The European aristocracy and the fraternities of those times could literally invent a musical genius. And they did so. Often. In Mozart's case with the input of dozens of composers, publishers, music editors, fiction writers and a cast of hundreds. As for the musicians involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.

J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)
Symphony in G Minor
Minuetto/Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fio9SDw_nk&feature=related



The composer Dittersdorf(!)-http://www.hoasm.org/XIIC/Dittersdorf.html-noted in his biography* that Joseph II compared Mozart’s compositions to that of a gold snuffbox crafted in Paris(!!), while Joseph Haydn’s were those of a snuffbox finished off in London(!!!).

*His memoirs, Lebenbeschreibung, were published in Leipzig in 1801: http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Ditters+von+Dittersdorf,+Karl/Karl+Ditters+von+Dittersdorf+Lebensbeschreibung

[yanni]

If only your theory on the manufacturer would tally with the opinion shared by Kessler and Joseph II!

Still, there is always room for more fiction!

:Angel_anim:


Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart, should have known. He was awarded papally approved membership of the Order of the Golden Spur in 1770, as was Abbe Georg Vogler and Mozart himself. In that same year.

Dittersdorf was closely associated with Count Giacommo Durazzo, the Venetian nobleman who hired Andrea Luchesi to be Kapellmeister at Bonn, a position wanted by Mozart himself. Dittersdorf was also closely associated with Esterhazy (cousin of Durazzo) by marriage and patron of Josef Haydn. (Whose own story has hardly been told).

The European aristocracy and the fraternities of those times could literally invent a musical genius. And they did so. Often. In Mozart's case with the input of dozens of composers, publishers, music editors, fiction writers and a cast of hundreds. As for the musicians involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.

J.B. Vanhal (1739-1813)
Symphony in G Minor
Minuetto/Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fio9SDw_nk&feature=related

[Musicology]

Yanni,

The Emperor Josef 2nd died in 1790. Relevant to which is the fact that even at that time only a few works of 'Mozart' had been published in Vienna. This, of course, you did not know. (You may consult the entry made by JN Forkel of 1787 on 'Mozart' for that fact, amongst others). (And the views you are providing from Josef 2nd (obviously) were given by him before that year of his death 1790. This will not be difficult for you, Yanni, to accept as true. Although the implications of it may have you struggling). At which time, as said, only a few dozen published works known in Vienna are being described. Whose publication, as it happens, certainly involved Paris. Including 3 piano 'Mozart' concertos (these published in Vienna by Artaria etc in 1783/4) but actually composed by the blind Teresia von Paradis (1754-1824) - herself at the time still in Paris. (Paris being the city she visited no less than 8 times over those years and which was (as you may care to prove for yourself) the base for her career as a virtuoso pianist and composer in those very years). The same Paradis who said (late in life) 'and yet, do you think my music will be heard as mine, whether you know it or not' ? The same Paradis who escaped the clutches of the banned mesmerist Anton Mesmer and his 'house arrest' in Vienna of the same Paradis - he being a close friend of Leopold Mozart and his son, Wolfgang. As you perhaps know already ?

Yes, there is ''always room for more fiction'' Yanni ! You can provide it at any time. It always entertains !

Maurice Ravel
Concerto in G
2nd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsoSvHdcCv0


If only your theory on the manufacturer would tally with the opinion shared by Kessler and Joseph II!

Still, there is always room for more fiction!

:Angel_anim:

[yanni]

Better use your lively imagination on you Mozart novel, Robert.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

There is nothing more lively than life itself ! LOL !

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and even waddles like a duck, you can be reasonably sure it IS a duck.

(Excerpt from 'Comedy of Errors' Volume 9)

:crash:


Better use your lively imagination on you Mozart novel, Robert.

[yanni]

Esteeme a duck, according to his pace, But loose no wagers on a wilde goose chase.

[Musicology]

All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

Antonio Salieri (1750-1825)
Overture to Comic Opera
"Der Rauchfangkehrer"
1781

//

Antonio Salieri (1750-1825)
Overture
Opera
''Cublai''
1787

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-se5vUoow0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx9VH8P_i18&feature=related

[yanni]

Ideefix was indeed designed to represent "dog-mass" but was subordinate to Asterix, in turn yielding his veto in the UN in many important matters, excluding education however. This was left to the care of the many local Obelixes, each training his own little Ideefixes!

The famous trio never visited the Far East and their performance beyond the Wild West has been mediocre!

:yesnod:




All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

[Musicology]

LOL,

We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySKtp9Pt6JM&feature=related



Ideefix was indeed designed to represent "dog-mass" but was subordinate to Asterix, in turn yielding his veto in the UN in many important matters, excluding education however. This was left to the care of the many local Obelixes, each training his own little Ideefixes!

The famous trio never visited the Far East and their performance beyond the Wild West has been mediocre!

:yesnod:




All change is welcome except that which challenges our dogmas. Dogmas that we, the professedly wise, have funded as historical monuments.

Con Fucious and UN Control of Education (so-called)

[yanni]

While at it, do let some fresh air in!


LOL,

We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySKtp9Pt6JM&feature=related

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

..W.A. Mozart, during a musical examination taken in Bologna as a 14 year old boy during his visit to there of 12th October 1770 (when he wished to become a musical member of the Academy of Bologna), did NOT complete the required musical examination successfully. ... Padre Martini (a friend of the Mozart family there in Italy and essential for the growing reputation of the 'genius') re-wrote the exam paper FOR Mozart minutes afterwards (which Mozart then faithfully copied and submitted as his own entry for membership).
By 1846 (after a ton of other publications) this sequence of stage managed events had been forgotten by Mozart biographers and Mozart was routinely being credited with having passed the Bologna exam successfully on his own !
..during the early 1770’s W.A. Mozart as a teenager had still learned almost nothing of counterpoint and composition. A fact confirmed by other documentary evidence.



Yes, and Dittersdorf, Jesuit educated colleague of Mozart...
...involved and their own music, both are largely ignored today.


Yanni,
Once again, I beg your indulgence in allowing me to impose on your thread with a couple more relevant sonata quotes.

Regarding Robert’s comments about the Jesuits, Padre Martini, the infamous exam, all of which I will generally categorize as Mozart’s “education”, I offer:

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain…

…Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain…

[Pope Clement XIII capitulated to the demands of Salzburg faithful who insisted that the hermit program be implemented realizing the value of Spanish hermits as a homeshooling educational resource]

...Leopold volunteered his spacious Geburtshaus for all the children to gather for their lessons.
It should be mentioned that during the latter part of the eighteenth century, homeschooling was becoming a popular alternative to the Jesuit controlled public schools of the time. Many conservatives throughout the Bible belt region of Europe had grown despondent with the secular and humanistic curriculum of the Jesuits.”



LOL,
We only need to open the curtains to see the sun is shining.



While at it, do let some fresh air in!

Regarding the opening of curtains and windows and fresh air:

“…Later that day the weather improved to the point that I was able to open a window allowing some fresh air into the house. I placed a speaker by the window with the intent to spin one of my Bach LP’s to calm the Freemasons nerves as you suggested, but it turned out to be pointless due to the fact that my neighbor was already entertaining them with an a-cappella rendition of Floyd-“…just another brick in the wall…”

The reference to Bach in the aforementioned quote may serve us well in swinging this controversial craft around on its rightful tack, back to the familiar waters of Handel and Bach.


Gilliatt

[Musicology]

Hi there Gilliat Gurgle,

You have quoted somebody unnamed who wrote -

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain… …Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain..

And what sources are these, please ?

The fact is the 'exam' Mozart took in Bologna was stage managed. That's a plain, documentary and verifiable fact. Recognised by all who have examined the still surviving music in both versions and confirmed by evidence already published here a few days ago. Furthermore, even the Bologna certificate supposedly issued to Mozart is a fake (the one published as early as 1846 in a Mozart biography of that year) and was not, actually, what the Bologna exam board issue. This too is confirmed by the research of A. Taboga, L. Bianchini, A. Trombetta and others. It too was manipulated. And, as for writing down a mass from memory in Rome...........LOL !!!!!! There comes a point where these fairy tales have to be separated from historical/musical reality. No ? Or else we become educated fools. I hope you agree (?).

Furthermore (as if it couldn't get worse) I have to hand a surviving letter from September 1777 (written when Mozart was 21 years old) by Leopold Mozart in which he tells Padre Martini the views of Prince Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg on the subject of his son. Colloredo said (and I quote) -

'Furthermore, your son has never studied music. And he really should go to school. He should make the effort to enrol in a school which teaches the subject. Naples is one'''....

Leopold Mozart continues in the same letter, ''because of this Wolfgang has quit the service of the Archbishop here in Salzburg and has left here ...''

(Needless to say, the text of this letter never appears in Mozart biographies also). LOL !

It's catastrophic because this is the end of centuries of fiction, exaggeration and invention.

And that's Mozart aged 21 !! Leopold Mozart did NOT teach Mozart or anyone else music. There is no reference to it at all in the entire (voluminous) Mozart family correspondence. Leopold was raised to a token position of Deputy Kapellmeister only weeks before he left Salzburg for a year and more. Never doing anything of that kind in reality. And W.A. Mozart never went to school. Of any kind. Ever. A fact still true in 1777, as said. And so it continued.

As for ''Andiamo from Azpeitia'', yes, please, can you provide some details of your sources etc. I will examine them closely. And gladly. Leopold Mozart was a dealer in music. He was no composer himself. He was appointed as a valet and as a 4th violinist - the lowest position. 10 years later he rose no higher than 2nd violin. He taught nobody.

J.C. Bach
Concerto in D
2nd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncwtogKXQGg&feature=related

Regards

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Hi there Gilliat Gurgle,

You have quoted somebody unnamed who wrote -

“According to my sources, I am told that Mozart was home schooled during his formative years in Salzburg, by Leopold and a hermit by the name of Andiamo from Azpeitia (Saint Ignatius’ birth turf) Spain… …Andiamo was a brother in the St. Maximus hermitage located in the caves formed in the cliffs just to the northwest of the city. Andiamo’s presence in the Salzburg hermitage was a result of a hermit lend lease program established between Austria and Spain..

And what sources are these, please ?

"...by Leopold Mozart in which he tells Padre Martini the views of Prince Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg on the subject of his son. Colloredo said (and I quote) -

...Leopold Mozart did NOT teach Mozart or anyone else music.
... And W.A. Mozart never went to school. Of any kind. Ever. A fact still true in 1777, as said. And so it continued.

As for ''Andiamo from Azpeitia'', yes, please, can you provide some details of your sources etc. I will examine them closely.
...He taught nobody.



Robert, or Musicology (would you rather I use Musicology?)
Let me firts begin by begging your forgiveness, for I have had a bit too much French wine no thanks to the Neely and Brian Bean discussions on the eating thread.

My dear friend the quotes are from yours truly, borrowed from another thread, a fact that I felt was established, though subtly, when I stated "...couple more relevant sonata quotes."
I was trying not to come across as too slef (oops) self serving by using a lower case "s" and not naming the entire thread.

Once again, my understanding of the facts behind Mozart's manufacture, were presented to me by my friends back in Dumas Texas. i.e. Jack Russell aka "The Terrier" or "The Shaman", Dusty Rhoads, Rusty Springs, Father Andrea Martini, Billy Aristotle, et al.

Your friend,
Gilliatt

ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.


.

[yanni]

Distinguishing between reality and fiction (not always malintentioned) is a 24/7 neccessity, a way of life, Gilliat.

Another choice is a selfcreated dreamworld.

Beaver and butterfly, both to my liking and respect. (In this day and age, both equally "heroic" propably).


'ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.'

[Musicology]

Dear Gilliat Gurgle,

Thank you for reminding me that French wine is no respector of persons ! I remember a mad summer in Dordogne (SW France) when the properties of a cheap, rustic wine there (sold in a bottle of 5 litres) was the cause of more laughter (and headaches) than any politician I ever heard. I would not be surprised if it had other properties (such as being able to remove enamel paint from radiators). Though we bought it with the most wonderful cheese and bread and it has its place, somewhere, in the chronicles of my more memorable and hazy days.

Speaking of which, if Yanni is correct, fact and fiction are in the eyes of the beholder and (he may argue) we owe a pilgrimage of penanance to the colossos of Rhodes or to the Mozart mega momument - though the second towers so oppressively over our education.

LOL :smilielol5:

Very best wishes

Robert

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Overture from Opera
''Giulio Sabino''
1781

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vmZIg4E_Jk&feature=related







Robert, or Musicology (would you rather I use Musicology?)
Let me firts begin by begging your forgiveness, for I have had a bit too much French wine no thanks to the Neely and Brian Bean discussions on the eating thread.

My dear friend the quotes are from yours truly, borrowed from another thread, a fact that I felt was established, though subtly, when I stated "...couple more relevant sonata quotes."
I was trying not to come across as too slef (oops) self serving by using a lower case "s" and not naming the entire thread.

Once again, my understanding of the facts behind Mozart's manufacture, were presented to me by my friends back in Dumas Texas. i.e. Jack Russell aka "The Terrier" or "The Shaman", Dusty Rhoads, Rusty Springs, Father Andrea Martini, Billy Aristotle, et al.

Your friend,
Gilliatt

ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.


.

[Musicology]

Honest confession is good for the soul, yes, Yanni ? The most 'heroic' of men under the sun knew it well. Ask Ignatius Loyola or W.A. Mozart.

Antonio Vivaldi
Aria
Compatisco il tuo fiero tormento
Opera
Ottone in Villa
1713

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZ_ivOVOps&feature=related



Distinguishing between reality and fiction (not always malintentioned) is a 24/7 neccessity, a way of life, Gilliat.

Another choice is a selfcreated dreamworld.

Beaver and butterfly, both to my liking and respect. (In this day and age, both equally "heroic" propably).


'ps - Yanni
Again, my apologies for drifting off course.'

[yanni]

You'll propably feel better once your windows are opened, Robert.


Honest confession is good for the soul, yes, Yanni ?

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni. Opening the windows to what has been firmly closed shut for over 200 years is a very good idea.

In celebration of which fact (and since I have to finish some things by this weekend) I leave you with good wishes with the following. The first few paragraphs of


You'll propably feel better once your windows are opened, Robert.

[yanni]

Symptom: Desperate efforts to expess oneself as if in a hurry, often incomprehensible and/or ending abruptly with incomplete sentences.

Diagnosis: Chronic asphyxia and/or accute diarrhoea.


Thank you Yanni. Opening the windows to what has been firmly closed shut for over 200 years is a very good idea.

In celebration of which fact (and since I have to finish some things by this weekend) I leave you with good wishes with the following. The first few paragraphs of

[Musicology]

Manufacture of Mozart

Chapter 1

Thank you Yanni. I do not agree with your diagnosis.

The first paragraphs of the first chapter.

Regards

RN

(The whole chapter will be posted on an Italian website this weekend)




THE MANUFACTURE OF MOZART

Chapter 1

THE GENIUS OF MOZART

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791) has been universally and almost unanimously described as ‘a musical genius’ by generations of musicologists, biographers and the consuming public and for so long his very name is considered to be synonymous with genius. At least musically. So the idea of writing a book that is critical of Mozart, his official career and iconic status has not surprisingly provoked a fair amount of controversy, offence, and disbelief amongst some who knew of it to some extent and who number themselves among his adoring faithful. Though the Mozart of convention is a figure who looms so large over our western musical and cultural landscape and has been so eulogised and revered by generations for so long that no-one can possibly deny he is a phenomenon. And, to be fair, if we examine the surviving records of his life and musical legacy (both of them still being intensively studied today as they have for almost 200 years) we surely find ourselves obliged to surrender to the fact of his genius ourselves. The silencing of theoretical, potential criticism, the neutralising of wayward critics (who may raise their ugly heads on individual points from time to time in studies on any great man) has been counter-acted in Mozart’s case by the facts of our education and the powers of conservatism and these have surely defied any such scenario occurring in a major sense in respect of the life and career of the Salzburg genius. His reputation considered to have been fortified behind banks of erudite and patina laden scholarship, whose verdict and attitude is supported by an adoring public and by a consensus on him and his music that is remarkable. Our conversion to the cult of Mozart is encouraged by musicologists, biographers and cultural commentators as it has been by their colleagues and predecessors for the better part of 200 years. The water of the sea is saline and, in the same way, W.A. Mozart, is a musical genius, a paradigm, and one of the great composers of western musical history. He is also, (we may observe) a privileged member of an elite pantheon who, biographically and musically is encouraged to dominate, even control a crucial period of musical history as we know it. Since Mozart and his music are assumed to be a vital, even integral part of it. Monuments must be protected. And, a study of the documentary evidence and our hearing of his music would surely show, beyond fair and reasonable doubt, that this almost unanimous and positive verdict on our subject has been a feature of Mozart studies since the time he and it entered in to the public consciousness. We may have different views on when our subject first transcended the private world of Mozart’s patrons and family and of those who oversaw and managed his rise to giant, even iconic status. But the fact that this extraordinary process occurred and did so with the approval and astonishment of the musical and public world is indisputable. Mozart - musical genius, phenomenon of nature and transcendentally gifted composer is believed in virtually every sense to be a verifiable and historical fact.

To criticise the conventional Mozart and even to begin what may seem an unpromising process of us doing so we must, to be fair, first give a description of what Mozartean convention is and must acknowledge, from the start, this phenomenon, is surely among the most successful examples of consensus that has ever existed between the academic, cultural and public sectors in a musical sense. We must also accept from the outset that if we would criticise Mozart we face a whole number of challenges of such size and complexity that our task may seem almost inconceivable. With its critics predicting that it would have an outcome of no real significance other than to consolidate tradition itself.

This work, however, will criticise the Mozart of convention. But not before our subject is described and until convention itself has first been described. The aim of this first chapter is to do both. To justify that process. And to show what may seem to be ‘inconceivable’ is a standard product of musicology, of academic integrity, and even of necessary criticism.

We are, in this particular area of study (and always have been) much impressed by documents. These carry great weight in the Mozartean world and we are accustomed to believe the evidence they provide is conclusive. So let’s begin by imagining ourselves invited to a rather special event. To a forum. Where we are invited to witness a process whose aim is to establish the truth or otherwise of the Mozart phenomenon. Biographically and musically. With we as members of an invited audience about to take our seats with interested experts of various kinds and amateurs, journalists, biographers, students and others, all attracted to deliver our individual verdict on the outcome of those proceedings. And all of us sharing in common the fact we are lovers of music. And now take our seats before a stage on which a number of tables and chairs are seen, together with a dias from which various speakers will shortly speak. Allowing these issues on Mozart to be fairly and honestly presented and defended to a modern audience by numerous speakers, these having been specially invited by a chairman who will open proceedings from the dias with a speech within the next few minutes. A string of witnesses will then be called to appear in sequence who will speak and be allowed to be cross-examined on their views in a respectful and public way. These proceedings to be presided over by the chairman. With no expense having been spared in obtaining for this event copies of the entire body of Mozart literature (musical and biographical - and with many of them considered to be prime sources) which have been shelved and can be seen prominently in great rows at the back of the stage. And which may be accessed by anyone who contributes. This event having a duration of as many days as there are chapters in this book. Our united aim being to establish the truth or otherwise of the W.A. Mozart of convention. The success of these proceedings is made more probable by general agreement that such a scenario is almost ideal for that specific purpose. Audio recordings of all music attributed to W.A. Mozart are also available and these may be accessed at any time on request by the numerous speakers and contributors to this rare and important event.

//
Etc

:)

[yanni]

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/3-most-reliable-engine-starter-repair-kits

[Musicology]

Thank you Yanni,

Here are a few more lines added. In celebration of your muted applause ! LOL :smilielol5:

Regards


Manufacture of Mozart

Chapter 1

THE GENIUS OF MOZART


Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791) has been universally and almost unanimously described as ‘a musical genius’ by generations of musicologists, biographers and the consuming public. For so long, in fact, that his very name is considered to be synonymous with genius. At least musically. So the idea of writing a book that is critical of Mozart, of his official career and even of his iconic status has not surprisingly provoked a fair amount of controversy, offence, and disbelief even amongst some who have known of its appearance to some extent and who number themselves among his adoring faithful. Though the Mozart of convention is a figure which looms so large over our western musical and cultural landscape and has been eulogised and revered for all that time, so that no-one can possibly deny we are dealing with a phenomenon. And, to be fair, if we examine surviving records of his life and musical legacy (both still being intensively studied as they have for almost 200 years) we will surely find ourselves obliged to surrender to the fact of his genius for ourselves. The silencing of theoretical, potential criticism, the neutralising of wayward critics (who may dare to raise their ugly heads on individual points of his life and legacy from time to time are considered no more important an issue, in a fundamental sense, than studies on any great man and his life). So those minor matters have rarely dented the seamless robe of Mozart studies nor shaped in any way our education and innate conservatism. The critics of convention have been prevented from being par of any critical assessment of the life and career of the Salzburg genius. His reputation considered to be fortified behind banks of erudite, self-correcting and patina laden scholarship, whose verdict is supported by an adoring public and by a consensus on him and his music that is remarkable. Our conversion to the cult of Mozart has been encouraged by musicologists, biographers and cultural commentators themselves as it has been by their colleagues and predecessors for the better part of 200 years. The water of the sea is saline and, in the same way, W.A. Mozart, is a musical genius, a paradigm, and one of the great composers of western musical history. He is also, (we may observe) a privileged member of an elite pantheon of composers who, biographically and musically have grown to dominate, even control our understanding and appreciation of a crucial period of musical history as we know it. Since Mozart and his music are assumed to be a vital, even integral part of it. Monuments must be protected. And, a study of the documentary evidence and our hearing of his music is said to confirm, beyond fair and reasonable doubt this almost unanimous and positive verdict on our subject which has been a feature of Mozart studies virtually since the time he and it first entered in to the public consciousness.

We may have different views on when our subject first transcended the private world of Mozart’s patrons and family and of those who oversaw and managed his rise to giant, even iconic status. But the fact this extraordinary process occurred and did so with the approval and astonishment of the musical and public world is indisputable. Mozart - musical genius, phenomenon of nature and transcendentally gifted composer is believed in virtually every sense to be a verifiable and historical fact.

To criticise this Mozart of convention and even to begin what may seem an unpromising process of doing so we must first, to be fair, remind ourselves of what Mozartean convention is. And must acknowledge, from the start that this phenomenon is certainly among the most successful examples of consensus that has ever existed between the academic, cultural and public sectors in a musical sense. Since any who would criticise Mozart in any meaningful sense will face a whole number of challenges of such size and complexity that their task may seem to the conservative mind almost inconceivable. With critics predicting in advance that it would have an outcome of no significance other than to consolidate tradition.

This work, however, criticises the Mozart of convention. But not before our subject has been described and not until convention has first been described. The aim of this first chapter is to do both. To justify that process. And to show that what may seem ‘inconceivable’ is a standard, even necessary product of musicology and of academic integrity. Especially in a case where our entire knowledge of 18th century music and of the music which followed it, is so clearly monopolised by the pantheon of which Mozart is a leading member.

PRELUDE

We are, in this particular area of study (and always have been) much impressed by documents. These, not surprisingly, carry great weight in the world of Mozart studies and we are accustomed to believe the evidence they are able to provide is conclusive. Nothing, we are told, is more natural. So let’s begin by imagining ourselves invited to a rather special event. To a conference. Where we are invited to witness a process whose aim is to establish the truth or otherwise of the Mozart phenomenon. Biographically and musically. With we, now members of a large and invited audience are about to take our seats in the hall with interested experts of various kinds and amateurs, journalists, biographers, students and others, all attracted to deliver our individual verdict on the outcome of those proceedings. All sharing in common the fact we are lovers of music. We now take our seats before a stage on which a number of tables and chairs are seen, together with a lectern from which various speakers will shortly speak. Allowing the subject of Mozart to be fairly and honestly presented and defended to a modern audience, the speakers having been specially invited by a chairman who will open the conference within the next few minutes. A string of witnesses will then be called to appear who will speak on their findings and be allowed to be cross-examined in a respectful and public way. These proceedings to be presided over by the chairman. Himself a man of some integrity. With no expense having been spared in obtaining for this event copies of the entire body of Mozart literature (musical and biographical - many of which are considered to be prime sources), these having been shelved on the stage before us and which can be seen prominently lined in great rows at the back of the stage. These documents being able to be accessed by anyone who contributes. And this event scheduled to have a duration of as many days as there are chapters in this book. Our united aim being to establish the truth or otherwise of the W.A. Mozart of convention. The success of these proceedings made more probable by general agreement that such a scenario is almost ideal for its specific purpose. And audio recordings of all music attributed to W.A. Mozart also available which may be accessed at any time on request by these numerous speakers and contributors to this rare and important event.

(With the hall now filled and delegates and the audience having arrived and taken their places for the first session the chairman arrives and gives his opening speech of greeting. After which a series of experts in Mozart studies begin to remind us of Mozart’s legendary life and musical achievements, supplementing their comments and recent findings on the subject by reference to textbooks, journal articles and from the source literature mentioned above. In several cases movements of his music being played, to general applause. As illustrations of his achievements. The morning of the first day of this conference may even be described as a celebration of convention, endorsed by each of the speakers who had taken their seats on stage before and after their speeches. Lunch arrives. And so also the prospect of the afternoon session of that day. In which the critics of convention are due to speak, having declined cross-examination of earlier speakers during that morning session. And, following a fine lunch, the conference resumes as the chairman introduces the first speech from Mozart’s critics. This preluded by muted applause from the audience as the first speaker of the opposition stands and makes his way to the microphone) -

'' Mr Chairman, Fellow Delegates, Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is to the credit of Mozart research that this conference has attracted such a great crowd of expert defenders and admirers as yourselves in a modern re-assessment of his reputation and achievements. And especially on this rare occasion when his life and musical career are open to such criticism. Though I am happy to think we are all of equal value in this process. That we are sufficiently well educated, good willed and cultured to be here. With you fortified behind the reinforced archives, opinions and publications of 200 years. And especially since we are surrounded by biographical and musical jewels of Mozart’s legacy and the published fruits of those who have devoted their lives and careers to his study over these past several centuries. (Whose books and articles are assembled behind me thanks to the kind efforts of our chairman. With scores of the music). Without a doubt there are assembled here today more experts on our subject per cubic metre of airspace than have ever been assembled on Mozart since perhaps October 1770 - at which time, as you know, he graduated for membership of the Accademia Filarmonica in Bologna. Equal expertise is here today, quantitatively, to that which heard the Sistine Choir sing the ‘Misirere’ of Gregorio Allegri (1582-1652) in that same year in Rome, when the same Wolfgang was credited by experts of that city and elsewhere with writing its music down from memory.

And I admit that as I ate lunch just now a moment of panic almost overwhelmed me - by the awful realisation that I and a few others invited here to speak would shortly call in to question what most of us consider to be a foundational fact of western musical and cultural history. By daring to suggest, and to argue with our learned colleagues over these days, that the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart of academic and cultural convention is little more, in fact, than childish nonsense.

(Gasps of astonishment from the audience)

etc.

//
Etc

[yanni]

http://trianglebook.iwarp.com/whats_new_14.html

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Athanasius Kirchner SJ (Jesuit Order) lived between 1602-1680 and was author of an evil occultist work that was used a century later for manufacture of the higher degrees, (around 33rd degree onwards) of occultist Freemasonry and this from around 1780 onwards. Which corresponded with the rise of the so-called Illuminati and which became known as the Rite of Mizraim. That influential publication began to be spread across Europe from around that date (1780) amongst the elites of Europe by the later fool known as Cagliostro.

Cagliostro was a con man. He wrote nothing. And my next door neighbour's cat wrote more music than he. Claims of Cagliostro being this or that are childish nonsense. 200 year old nonsense that has clearly fogged your brain and made it impossible for you to post anything truthful. The fact that men spend their lives in service to such arcane nonsense for 30 pieces of silver and that others believe it is proof there are fools who will follow anything. And do so. They are men who never grew up. Slaves of globalism. And of the usual corrupt elites.


This stuff has been exposed for over two centuries.

[yanni]

It is unbecoming for young men to utter maxims.

Aristotle

[Musicology]

Both Aristotle and Plato wanted to have slave states run by elites. That's exactly the nonsense that was revived in the Renaissance. And it's pagan world nonsense. It was even taught to the ruling elites of Europe for centuries and is irrelevant in the real world of today. It was taught to the shareholders of the British Empire, to the hieararchies of the Holy Roman Empire and is still taught to the lost souls of globalist movement. People who still believe that stuff are ill and want to enforce their cardboard empires on others. They should be exposed. Let's grow up and put away childish philosophies. The human race knows better.

JS Bach
Concerto BWV 1042/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwKC9EnJ-pU&playnext=1&list=PL1C7D6FAF7C4691B0&index=4



It is unbecoming for young men to utter maxims.

Aristotle

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Thank you Yanni,

Here are a few more lines added. In celebration of your muted applause ! LOL :smilielol5:

Regards

Manufacture of Mozart

Chapter 1

THE GENIUS OF MOZART


Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791) has been universally and almost unanimously described as ‘a musical genius’ ...."

"...in a modern re-assessment of his reputation and achievements..."


(Gasps of astonishment from the audience)



Robert, I applaud you on completing your work and wish you success, but success can only come about by holding fast to the truth. It is my expectation that Coronado's role in Mozart's manufacture will be addressed accordingly in your "modern re-assessment".

Regards
Gilliatt

[yanni]

Best of luck to you and Mozart both, Robert.

Whenever you decide to write a novel on JSBach as well, do not neglect to read Ruth Hacohen's: 'The dramaturgy of religious enotions in Bach's cantatas: Aristotelian processes in Neoplatonic* Frames'.

http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub4/hacohen.pdf

Ta-ta!

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism




Both Aristotle and Plato wanted to have slave states run by elites. That's exactly the nonsense that was revived in the Renaissance. And it's pagan world nonsense. It was even taught to the ruling elites of Europe for centuries and is irrelevant in the real world of today. It was taught to the shareholders of the British Empire, to the hieararchies of the Holy Roman Empire and is still taught to the lost souls of globalist movement. People who still believe that stuff are ill and want to enforce their cardboard empires on others. They should be exposed. Let's grow up and put away childish philosophies. The human race knows better.

JS Bach
Concerto BWV 1042/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwKC9EnJ-pU&playnext=1&list=PL1C7D6FAF7C4691B0&index=4

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni,

I accept your suggestion. If I ever write a 'novel' on JS Bach I will read Ruth Hacohen's 'Dramatury of Religious Emotions in Bach's Cantatas: Aristotelian processes in Neoplatonic Frames'.

:)

Best of luck to you and Mozart both, Robert.

Whenever you decide to write a novel on JSBach as well, do not neglect to read Ruth Hacohen's: 'The dramaturgy of religious enotions in Bach's cantatas: Aristotelian processes in Neoplatonic* Frames'.

http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub4/hacohen.pdf

Ta-ta!

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

[yanni]

'Two parts, then, of the Plot- Reversal of the Situation and Recognition- turn upon surprises. A third part is the Scene of Suffering. The Scene of Suffering is a destructive or painful action, such as death on the stage, bodily agony, wounds, and the like.'

Aristotle.

[Musicology]

When deeply held philosophies collapse there will always be the lingering smell of burning rubber and a period of amnesia. While services return to normal.

J.S. Bach
Concerto in A Minor
BWV 1044/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA3pbSBHR2E




'Two parts, then, of the Plot- Reversal of the Situation and Recognition- turn upon surprises. A third part is the Scene of Suffering. The Scene of Suffering is a destructive or painful action, such as death on the stage, bodily agony, wounds, and the like.'

Aristotle.

[yanni]

We covered your amnesia on earlier posts, Robert; Re the smell of burning rubber: Move your feet away from the fireplace before your slippers ignite turning you into a vam-pyre (medieval grk for "walks on fire").

Services returning to normal depends on the goodwill of this new frost wave hitting UK.

Here is some Handel/Bach music for you: "Their" variations:

http://new.music.yahoo.com/michael-ponti/albums/handel-bach-variations--23187045

Ta ta.


When deeply held philosophies collapse there will always be the lingering smell of burning rubber and a period of amnesia. While services return to normal.

[Musicology]

THE GENIUS OF MOZART

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791) has been universally and almost unanimously described as ‘a musical genius’ by generations of musicologists, biographers, publicists and the music loving public. For so long, in fact, his name is considered to be synonymous with genius itself. At least musically. So the idea of a book that is critical of him and one which questions the accepted details of his career, achievements and iconic status has not surprisingly provoked a fair amount of controversy and disbelief during its preparation, among those who learned of it and who have already rallied to his defence in describing themselves as members of his adoring faithful. Nor has the appearance of a work which challenges the Mozart of convention been welcomed by those accustomed to a figure who towers over the western musical and cultural landscape and whom we believe is a musical icon. One who has been eulogised and revered to such an extent that no-one denies his colossal musical and cultural status.

If we examine surviving records (subjects still being studied worldwide) we ourselves seem obliged to surrender to the 'fact' of his genius. The lack of theoretical, potential criticism, the easy neutralising of a few wayward critics (who may dare to raise their ugly heads on individual points related to his life and career) are considered to have achieved nothing more significant than those who may, from time to time, question the status of any great man). Occasional complaints have not torn the seamless robe of Mozart Studies or affected the education and innate conservatism of teachers. Critics of Mozartean convention are a rare species discouraged from causing controversy in respect of his convention. And a revision process, if one exists, would easily be dismissed as a misguided kind of venture. Mozart’s reputation has been fortified behind banks of solid, erudite, self-correcting and patina laden scholarship, this being the verdict of the adoring public and by a consensus on him that is truly remarkable. Our conversion to the cult of Mozart is achieved in the name of global culture and education and has been encouraged by experts over the better part of 200 years. The water of the ocean is saline and, in the same way, W.A. Mozart, is a musical genius, a paradigm, and one of the great composers of western musical history.A privileged member of an elite pantheon of great western composers, in fact, who, biographically and musically dominates, even controls our understanding and appreciation of musical achievement during a crucial period of its history. Of the Classical Period. And Mozart and his music are said to be a vital, even integral part of it. Monuments that have been so painstakingly built of academic and cultural concrete must be ‘protected‘ if criticised. Our study of the documentary evidence and the hearing his music is said to justify, beyond any fair and reasonable doubt, this almost unanimous and positive verdict. A view which has underpinned Mozart Studies virtually since the time he and the music attributed to him first entered in to the public domain.

We may hold different opinions when our subject began to transcend the world of Mozart’s patrons and his family. We may agree to disagree on the time he as a musical phenomenon began to be overseen and managed during his largely posthumous rise to giant and iconic status. But the fact this process occurred with near unanimous approval and astonishment by members of the musical and public world is indisputable. Mozart - musical genius, phenomenon of nature and transcendentally gifted composer is believed in virtually every sense to be a verifiable and historical fact.

To criticise the Mozart of convention we may begin with a description of what convention is. And must acknowledge that this phenomenon is among the most successful examples of consensus that has ever existed between the academic, cultural and public sectors in a musical sense. We who would criticise him in any meaningful sense will face a series of severe challenges, some of such size and complexity our task may seem at times almost inconceivable. Nor can we be surprised if conservatives have already predicted that a modern re-assessment of the Mozart phenomenon will only have the result of consolidating their own beliefs.

This work will criticise the life, career and musical achievements of W.A. Mozart. But not before the scope of our subject is agreed and not before the conventions that surround Mozart Studies have been described and agreed upon. The aim of this first chapter is justify this rare process and to examine this issue in some detail over the rest of this work. To show that what may seem ‘inconceivable’ is a standard, necessary product of musicology and even a matter of academic integrity. Especially where our knowledge of 18th century musical achievement has been virtually monopolised and defined by defenders of a musical pantheon of which he, W.A. Mozart, is considered such a vital an integral part.

PRELUDE

We who are interested in the history of western music and culture are impressed by the testimony of source documents. Their contents can carry great weight and we believe the evidence they provide here has been conclusive. Nothing, we are told, is more natural. And, in the case of Mozart, we consume those documents wholesale. So we may imagine being invited to a special event where all aspects of Mozart’s life, career and musical status are about to be discussed in detail. To a Mozart conference, in fact. At which we are to witness a rare process whose aim is to establish for modern teachers, students and the general public the truth or otherwise of the Mozart phenomenon. Biographically and musically. By our discussion and examination of the available evidence. With we, as members of a large and invited audience about to take our seats in a hall, together with interested experts and amateurs, journalists, biographers, students and others, all of whom have been invited to deliver considered verdicts on those proceedings. And all sharing in common the fact we are lovers of music.

We take our seats before a stage on which have been arranged a number of tables and chairs. With a lectern from which the various speakers will shortly deliver a series of Mozart related lectures. So this subject can be defended and seen to be defended. With these various speakers having been invited by a chairman who will shortly open the conference. Men and women, considered to be experts on particular areas of this subject will speak on their findings, each having agreed to be cross-examined, if required, on the content of what they say, and in a respectful and public way. With these remarkable proceedings overseen by the chairman, himself a man of integrity. With no expense having been spared in giving legitimacy to this rare event by copies of the entire body of Mozart literature (musical and biographical) having been brought to the hall and many other documents to hand that are considered to be prime sources. These arranged on shelves at the back of the stage and able to be accessed by anyone who contributes. This whole event scheduled to have a duration of as many days as there are chapters in this book. The aim being to establish the truth or otherwise of the W.A. Mozart of convention.

The success of these proceedings is made more probable by agreement having been reached between all parties that such a scenario is almost ideal for that purpose. With audio recordings of music attributed to W.A. Mozart also made available to be played and which may be accessed by anyone during this rare and important event.

(The hall of this unlikely conference fills with delegates and we, as privileged members of its audience have now taken our places to witness its first session. Its chairman gives his opening speech and a series of experts begin to remind us of Mozart’s legendary life and musical achievements, supplementing their lectures by details of recent findings on aspects of his life and career and by frequent reference to textbooks, journal articles and illustrations from the source literature already described above. In several cases movements of musical works are played, to general applause. These as illustrations of Mozart’s achievements. So the morning of the first day of this conference can be described as a celebration of convention, endorsed by each of the early speakers.

Lunch time arrives. As does the prospect of an unusual afternoon session. At which critics of convention are due to speak for the first time, having declined their chance to cross-examine these morning speakers or the contents of their lectures. And, following a fine lunch, our conference resumes with its chairman inviting the first speech from Mozart’s critics. The arrival of the first speaker being welcomed with muted applause as he stands and makes his way to the microphone. -

‘’Chairman, Fellow Delegates, Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is to the great credit of the organisers and chairman of this conference on Mozart that they have successfully attracted such a crowd of expert defenders and admirers to this rare and modern re-assessment of his musical reputation and achievements. And especially when Mozart’s life and musical career are finally laid open for modern, public and academic scrutiny. I am happy to think we are all of equal value in ensuring the success of this process. And am convinced we are all, each of us, sufficiently well educated, good willed and cultured to be here. And it is certainly a privilege for me.

Many of us, we see, are fortified behind the reinforced concrete that are these archives, opinions and Mozart-related publications of the last 200 years. And we are further surrounded by numerous biographical and musical jewels of Mozart’s musical legacy and by the published fruits of men and women who devoted their lives and careers to his study over the same period of time. (Whose books and articles are assembled here within out easy reach thanks to the generous efforts of our chairman. With all available scores of his music).

There many be more experts on this most fascinating subject per cubic metre of airspace than have been assembled since October 1770 - when, as you know, the young Mozart graduated for membership of the Accademia Filarmonica in Bologna. And a similar gathering of expertise is no doubt present today, at least quantitatively, to those who heard the Sistine Choir sing the ‘Misirere’ of Gregorio Allegri (1582-1652) in Rome, when Wolfgang in that same year was credited with writing down a performance of that music from memory. Since genius, as we all know, is synonymous with the life and career of W.A. Mozart.

But I wish to begin with a confession. While eating lunch just now a moment of panic overwhelmed me with the realisation I and a few others present today must shortly call in to question what is considered by many to be a foundational fact of western musical and cultural history. By daring to suggest and to remind my colleagues over these coming days that the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart of academic and cultural convention is little more, in fact, than childish nonsense.

(Gasps of astonishment from the audience)

But I have chosen my words carefully and am happy to be the first to define the term ‘genius’. A fact which the earlier speakers seem never to have done. By ‘nonsense’ I mean it makes no sense to me ‘The Genius of Mozart’ is unanimously agreed upon without it once being defined. And since Mozart's genius (real or otherwise) is the main theme of this first day I must approach it from the opposing view, slowly, and not directly, since genius is a word so ubiquitous it virtually defies fair and reasonable conversation. So I am reduced to using the word ‘nonsense’ as its antidote. So we might finally meet in middle ground, having considered the actual evidence in respect of W.A. Mozart.

I will begin my contribution on ‘The Genius of Mozart’ gently. By offering some examples of convention on that subject. A few may be enough since you subscribe to them.

‘Thus died Mozart, perhaps the greatest genius in human recorded history. We feel no qualms in using the sentimental cliché’.

(Wolfgang Hildesheimer ‘Mozart’ p. 366 - J.M. Dent (1983) - Translated from German by Marion Faber)

And -

‘In this year … nothing can or may be sung or played, and nothing heard with approbation, but that it bears on its brow the all-powerful and magic name of Mozart’

(‘Teutschlands Annalen des Jahres’ - 1794)

And, selected randomly from literally hundreds of published eulogies -

‘Unlike Haydn, his senior by 24 years, and Beethoven, his junior by 15, he (Mozart) excelled in every medium current in his time. He may thus be regarded as the most universal composer in the history of Western music’
(New Grove - ‘Dictionary of Music and Musicians’ - entry on Mozart)

This is, you agree, the Mozart of academic and cultural convention. And it cannot be denied that tradition, convention and conservatism all have a worthy place within academic study though only if open and seen to be open to criticism on an ongoing basis. Which gives our conference a unique and rare feeling to it. Our problems begin (and I must share it with you) that Mozart Studies are notoriously closed to criticism and have been for as long as they have existed. The proof is the fact that not a single book has appeared in print over the past two centuries whose author has questioned at any length Mozart’s giant, even iconic status (biographically and musically) within the history of western music as we know it. Nor that of his alleged ‘genius’. The single exception being a work by William Stafford (1993) entitled promisingly ’ The Mozart Myths: A Critical Reassessment’. Which, to be fair, promises much but dangles the carrot over our subject without dealing with its biographical and musical substance in any real detail. Mr Stafford has demonstrated that fictions of numerous kinds have paraded themselves across the stage during the critical time when Mozart’s myth was being created, though no admission is made that these were due to a major or deliberate cause. Indeed, convention is said to have been restored by his efforts. So that normal service has been resumed, as it were.

Unless I am mistaken our colleagues here, during cross-examination of my comments will no doubt pull from the shelves behind me what they consider to be proof of Mozart’s genius. But before they are invited to do so you will note there has been no break with tradition, nor any prospect admitted by anyone this morning of there being a fault line, but only countless examples of deep conservatism, protecting, as it were, a historical monument, by the repeated mantra of his ‘genius’ and an approved, even relentless repetition of superlative statements such as those I have just read. Mozart Studies in all this time have been amongst the most highly sponsored, patronised, and funded projects in the entire history of musicology. Have they not ? Despite showing every sign (you will pardon me for saying so) of producing products of an ugly and dogmatic paradigm. Eulogies are in the DNA of Mozart biographies as we know them and the above are normal, even typical examples. Eulogies have been among the most striking features of Mozart biographies from the very first biography - that of F.X. Niemetscheck (1797/8) onwards. Nor do I exaggerate that our standard version of Mozart and his myth, biographically, has been one long eulogy and one long attribution of musical genius to him. With our proficiency in attributing such things to him considered to be a skill in itself, with the routine quoting of what someone has already quoted on that subject a kind of ’Brownie Point’. The net effect of this orgy of eulogising is to deeper consolidate the core assumptions of the Mozartean myth. As if that process has merits. And this mantra has been ring fenced by fraternal editors and men of influence who have been and are still employed within the academic world though the practice has little relationship to musicology, its parent science, and is as disparaging of criticism as it would be possible to devise. Less accountable to musicology, in fact, than bad governments are accountable for their actions and inactions. Indeed, you may agree the authors of Mozart Studies (especially in this rare meeting of minds) make no claim to being answerable to critics. If a body of academic studies had a similar track record we may be forgiven for thinking it was an academic virus preying on its host. Since, in the history of music, it is responsible, at least in part, for the suppression and disappearance of the names and musical achievements of countless musical composers.

I hold here a list of musical composers of the 18th century. Compiled from a number of English and German language publications. Thus, encompassing music and musical achievement during the century of Mozart. You may be surprised to know there were around 3,000 composers who were active in Europe during that century. Each of their lives and careers are refered to in works such as the larger musical encyclopedias. Over half of whom I see, composed symphonies, masses, operas, sonatas, and other works. Though the details of their individual lives are virtually unknown today and are of the utmost irrelevance to most people. Even to teachers of musical history. And, as for their individual musical achievements, these remain unperformed and unstudied, filed away in libraries and archives across Europe and beyond. This, dear audience, is evidence of the scale of our ‘Mozartification’. The overwhelming majority of these men may as well have been carpenters or blacksmiths, for all we care. And we, being reminded of it, and taking note of it will have some idea of the state of our colossal ignorance. We find ourselves on 18th century musicians and their music to be so bankrupt, so ignorant, that hardly one of us can name Mozart’s musical contemporaries, let alone claim to be familiar with their music. Is there a professor in Europe who, has written on W.A. Mozart at any length and who has heard, even once, those operas written and staged in Vienna during Mozart’s years there (1781-1791) ? Because Salieri, Cimarosa, Sarti, Anfossi, Paisiello, Alessandri, Gazzaniga, Guglielmi, Storace, Bianchi, Weigl, Vranicky, and others (whose names and music are hardly known or ever performed today) all staged works there during that decade and more successfully than Mozart. In the very decade he was living in that city. And, as for the rest of Europe, what of them and their operas at this time ?

Mozart, we say, was a genius. And this we ‘know’. But if we hear of astronomers who know only a handful of stars in the night sky are we not be entitled to call them charlatans, men of ignorance, and not astronomers at all ? How would we describe a professor of literature whose reading material during the whole of his career has been only a handful of newspapers ? I seriously suggest that to the extent that the energy of talented men and women has been used to preside over the construction, management and enforcement of an elite musical pantheon of western Europe (consisting of great names such as Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven etc) and which have been taught to generations of students and which has excluded from pupils their appreciation of virtually all music composed in that most creative period of western musical history (during the century of Mozart and the decades which followed it) are open to criticism for having separated music and musical achievement from any claim to historical honesty and integrity. On a systematic and even wholesale basis. Knowingly and unknowingly.

I will avoid reference today to the thousands of source documents (musical and non-musical) that are shelved behind me since our theme of this first day is, the ‘Genius of Mozart’. In the days ahead we will consider details of what those documents contain. But I must remind you that in a fair hearing, let us say, a court case, a defendant may be described in writing by a group of men as committing a crime of which he, that defendant, stands accused. Although, during his trial, not one of those writers is prepared to face the man they have accused, even when asked to attend cross-examination. In such a case their body of writings have no power in law to be compared to that of the word of the defendant. Since written testimony may and must be challenged if it is misleading or false. A verdict on such a case will be based mostly on the word of that living defendant. And if nobody is willing to face him to justify their accusations what verdict would a jury deliver ? Again, a man’s reputation may be completely invented or wrecked by a series of written articles which exaggerate him or the details of his life. Or by writings which scurrilously attack him. False reputations may be invented in writing by those never accountable for what they have written. But if those writers refuse cross-examination and their writings are disputed by a living witness they are considered to be of no value and the case against the defendant will collapse. Since he, the defendant, maintains his innocence and his accusers are unable to defend what they have written.

Do we as students of musical history believe the contents of a document merely because it exists ? When a document may be believed only if/when it has survived criticism. Only then is it considered to be of great importance.

We tend to believe in Mozart the genius but do so with only minimal thought. We believe because much beautiful music is by tradition attributed exclusively to him. It is the hearing of this music which tends to convince us. We further believe because a body of writings survives that has always been linked to him - writings which, for sure, indicate that he, W.A. Mozart was their author. But here, as in a court case, it is not what has been written that has been crucial in arriving at a fair judgement. WE AND OTHERS HEAR THIS BEAUTIFUL MUSIC FOR OURSELVES. IT IS OUR HEARING OF IT WHICH HAS BEEN THE CHIEF REASON FOR ATRIBUTING ITS AUTHORSHIP TO MOZART AND TO ATTRIBUTE TO HIM THE STATUS OF MUSICAL GENIUS.

Is this not true ? Our hearing is, beyond fair and reasonable doubt the principal and determining issue of our verdict on him and his status. We consider the proof of Mozart’s musical genius to be our hearing of that music. And we further believe when it is said ‘experts’ have confirmed it. By studies of these documents. So the public attribution to Mozart of his genius status is based upon these assumptions. On our hearing and by our belief this mountain of documents are further, definitive proof.

Setting aside the fact that musical copyright did not exist for virtually all the 18th century, and that the 18th was the first century to make celebrities of individual composers we are wise to begin with caution in considering Mozart’s supposed genius (real or otherwise) and his authorship, (real or otherwise) of this music.

THE BASIC AND CRUCIAL ASSUMPTION WE HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGED TO MAKE IS THAT OF A LARGELY UNQUESTIONED LINK, BETWEEN THE DOCUMENTS ASSEMBLED HERE (WHICH WE MAY CALL EVIDENCE ‘A’) AND THE HEARING OF THE MUSIC OF ’MOZART’ (WHICH WE MAY CALL EVIDENCE ’B’). THUS ‘A’ AND ‘B’ HAVE BEEN COMBINED FOR THE PUBLIC AND WE ARE PREPARED TO DEFEND THEIR ASSUMED ORIGINS AS BEING ONE AND THE SAME. WHICH MUSICOLOGY, THE ACADEMIC WORLD, AND WE AS CONSUMERS HAVE TENDED TO SUBSCRIBE TO W.A, MOZART, AND WHICH CONVENTION HAS BEEN SEEN AS PART OF MUSICAL HISTORY. THIS FUSION IS SUPPORTED BY TRADITION AND CONVENTION. WITH ONLY MINIMAL CRITICISM AND CROSS-EXAMINATION. IT IS THIS MARRIAGE OF EVIDENCE ’A’ AND EVIDENCE ’B’ THAT WILL BE QUESTIONED AND CROSS-EXAMINED OVER THE REST OF THIS CONFERENCE.

Much of this music IS beautiful. We agree. Did he compose it ? That is the question. And are these documents (biographical and musical) able to survive cross-examination ? To obtain answers to such questions is our priority here if the musical pantheon just described is to be taught and believed by generations of students and music lovers.


MOZART BIOGRAPHY (AN INTRODUCTION)

2 years after the death of a Danish diplomat named Georg Nikolaus von Nissen (b. 1761 d. 1826) a long awaited biography was posthumously attributed to him on the life and career of W.A. Mozart. (Though Nissen is not recorded as having ever met Mozart). The content and editorial control of this work were matters on which Constanze, widow of Mozart, (1762-1842) had always had effective control. Since she had married the same G.N. von Nissen 17 years earlier at Frankfurt am Main. The contents of this Mozart biography are to a great extent a pastiche of still earlier writings on the composer - drawing heavily for example on the published necrology of Freidrich Schlichtegroll (1792) , also on a series of anecdotes on Mozart which first appeared in print in Vienna back in 1798 under the editorial control of F Rochlitz, and by the earliest of all Mozart biographies published (after cancellation of an earlier attempt) in Prague, in 1798. This last named work being the earliest of all such biographies and credited to one FX Niemetscheck. This new ‘Nissen’ biography containing a number of new falsehoods and exaggerations which, as we will see, are all too typical of Constanze’s influence within Mozart biography as a whole. But there are other features worthy of our attention in that work. The first being there was no reason for making such a book at this time other than an attempt to provide a consolidated, ‘official’ and definitive version of Mozart’s life. Which appears to have been its real purpose. The oversight for which, as said, primarily involved Constanze. (Nissen himself being ignorant of music).

In confirmation of this being its real objective we read the following remarkable words contained in its introduction -

‘We do not want, and we must not publicly show our hero as perhaps he would have described himself in the intimacy of domestic evenings. To tell all the truth might do harm to his fame, to his respectability, to the very success of his music’.

The final form of the ‘Nissen’ work at its time of publication was left to others such as medical doctor and Mozart enthusiast Johann Heinrich Feuerstein (1797–1850). (Feurstein having been described ever since as ‘unstable‘). While other researchers confirm, ‘ the book was cobbled together in a haphazard fashion from the raw material, and the result was disastrous in terms of quality." while others describe it as ‘problematic‘ saying ‘large sections are taken from earlier accounts, often of dubious reliability, and it contains contradictions and errors. The family letters quoted within it can also be shown to have been highly selected and censored. The significance of which is that more than 35 years after Mozart’s death this work became the second Mozart biography with which Constanze herself had been heavily involved. So that we can describe her as the main manager of early Mozart biography. And she, Constanze (1762-1842), widow of Mozart, was very much involved is responsible to a great extent for the version of W.A. Mozart’s life and career with which we are familiar today.

It was Constanze who, 30 years earlier had managed the writing and content of F.X. Niemetscheck’s biography of 1798. And it was this same F.X. Niemetscheck who, for some reason, was able to adopt the young Karl Mozart with her permission. This close association between the earliest biography (Mozart being a man whom Niemetscheck had never met also) and this much later attempt at a definitive and official version by ‘Nissen’ made nearly 30 years later is striking in several other important ways.

1. Both F.X. Niemetscheck and G von Nissen (separated by almost 30 years) were both overseen in the writing of the biographies attributed to them by Constanze, widow of Mozart.

2. Constanze’s relationship with both biographers affected her and her family. She agreed to F.X. Niemetscheck adopting her young child Karl (1784-1858) for example (1796) and she married the Danish diplomat G. von Nissen.

3. F.X. Niemetscheck and G. von Nissen are both known to have worked as book censors during their lifetimes.

4. A city other than Vienna connected these two biographies. Regensburg, Germany, the seat of the Thurn and Taxis dynasty. A family who, amongst other things, had a virtual monopoly on the postal system of Europe in those times. And G. von Nissen was after graduating in law in Copenhagen employed for some time by the post office there in Demmark (managed by his uncle) before joining the diplomatic service. Being sent first to Regensburg in Germany where he lived for almost 2 years. Changing his location in 1793 (within 2 years of Mozart’s death) when he was appointed Secretary of the Danish Legation in Vienna. The date he moved to live in the home of Mozart’s widow in Vienna is still not certain. And Leopold Mozart (1719-1787) father of Wolfgang had obtained his first employment in 1740 with a dignitary attached to the church in Salzburg who was himself from Regensburg (Johann Baptist, Count of Thurn-Valsassina and Taxis). (Furthermore, Wolfgang’s patron during his ill-fated musical visit to Paris in 1778 was one Baron Melchior von Grimm, himself a native of Regensburg).

As regards early Mozart biography as a whole, we cannot overstate the influence of those already refered to, namely, the Nekrolog of Friedrich Schlichtegroll, that of F.X. Niemetschek (1798) and that of ’Nissen’ (c.1828) which finally led, decades later, to Otto Jahn’s W.A. Mozart (1856). This appearing only around 6 years before arrival of the 1st edition Ludwig von Köchel's chronological thematic catalogue of Mozart's works. With various later biographies than that of ‘Nissen’ drawing heavily on the earlier material themselves.

Thus, the figure and influence of Constanze Mozart appears twice as the main and most influential figure behind the writing and publication of early Mozart biographies. First in 1798 with F.X. Niemetscheck and, 30 years later with the ‘Nissen’. Justifying us seeing again the remark already quoted (from 1826) -

‘We do not want, and we must not publicly show our hero as perhaps he would have described himself in the intimacy of domestic evenings. To tell all the truth might do harm to his fame, to his respectability, to the very success of his music’.

Why are the facts of Mozart’s life and career to be hidden from public view ? Why are such things not wanted and why are they to be discouraged by Constanze from wider appreciation ? These are remarkable words from the manager of the earliest biographies of the composer. And they forbid questions which, if the truth were to be told, could, she says, do harm to the success, fame and respectability of the long dead W.A. Mozart. On these grounds alone you may agree that a modern and more critical examination of this subject is already justified.

And, through all of such an examination, are facts which must be confronted such as articles entitled '''The Mozart Myth: Tales of a Forgery''. From which comes the following -

''An extraordinarily persistent myth about how Mozart composed delayed true estimates of his methods. That myth is based in large part upon a spurious letter which "Mozart" is said to have written to a "Baron von X." The letter—published in German in 1815 and then in French, Italian and English—has been widely quoted, paraphrased and alluded to ever since. Even though Otto Jahn had already identified the letter as a forgery in his groundbreaking Mozart biography of 1856-59, its influence lives on''.

This letter apparently told readers what they wanted to hear: Mozart’s inspiration, genius, originality, creativity—all descended upon the entranced artist as if by lightning bolts from God. Arduous and intensive training, practice and hard work in a lucid state—these exertions were for mere mortals. The tone of the forgery is markedly different from that of Mozart's actual descriptions of how he composed, such as in letters about Die Entführung aus dem Serail (The Abduction from the Seraglio). Enough of the contextual details used by the forger to lend verisimilitude are incorrect that they have the opposite effect; for instance, Mozart's father-in-law was dead at the time the letter was purportedly written.

(Originally published letter in 'Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung' of August 23, 1815, no. 34, cols. 561-66. - Translation in the 'Harmonicon' of November 1825, no. XXXV, pp. 198-200).

Interviewed by Franz Xaver Niemetschek for his ''Leben des K. K. Kapellmeisters Wolfgang Gottlieb Mozart nach Originalquellen beschreiben (Prague, 1798), Constanze had this to say:

"Mozart ... never touched the piano while writing. When he received the libretto for a vocal composition, he went about for some time, concentrating on it until his imagination was fired. Then he proceeded to work out his ideas at the piano; and only then did he sit down and write."

When, three decades later, London music publisher Vincent Novello and his wife Mary visited and interviewed Constanze, she had idealized this to -

"He seldom went to the instrument when he composed....When some grand conception was working in his brain, he was purely abstracted, ... but when once arranged in his mind, he needed no pianoforte."

(Nerina Medici and Rosemary Hughes (eds.), ''A Mozart Pilgrimage: The Travel Diaries of Vincent & Mary Novello in the Year 1829'' (London, 1955).

The world-view expressed in the forged letter became permanently installed in the thoughts of Western intellectuals in such a way that even those who know it to be a forgery continue to subscribe to its underlying ideology. Goethe, Pushkin, Heidegger and Peter Schaefer are only some of those taken in by it. Here, perpetuating the myth, are a modern university-level textbook and two well-received popular books on music and science.

Philip E. Vernon (ed.), ''Creativity: Selected Readings'' (London, 1976). Edward Rothstein, ''Emblems of Mind: The Inner Life of Music and Mathematics'' (New York, 1995). Roger Penrose, and ''The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics'' (New York and Oxford, 1989).

The genius to which we subscribe is derived in the main from Mozart family writings. Shall we be reminded of that fact ? Volumes of letters sent and received by members of this family (at a time when postage was an expensive affair even with the nobility) and involving repeated and extensive tours over most of the European continent (Wolfgang sometimes accompanied by sister Nannerl but more often by his father, himself a prolific writer). These were years that involved Mozart’s travels to Germany, France, Italy, England, Holland, Belgium, Bohemia and Switzerland. Though this mass of surviving material contains hardly a single comment or observation by him or any member of his family on the sights of nature that were unfolding as they all travelled. Spectacular mountain ranges, the sight of great rivers, fields, forests, harvests, flowers, and scenery form virtually no part of these letters. Nor did the crossing of the sea to and from England during Mozart’s childhood. Events which (in both directions) generated little more than the most peripheral reference. What type of morose family must the Mozarts have been ?

If is argued the Mozart family at this time were very typical of the time in an indifference to the glories of nature as they travelled thousands of miles around western Europe and beyond this is contradicted by an already century old custom which had existed widely across Europe since the mid 17th century, where tours of lands were taken by coach known as the ‘Grand Tour’ and which were a celebration of human and natural wonders - in support of which is a vast published body evidence. Though the glories of nature, it seems, had no impact whatsoever on any of the Mozarts. While Beethoven, we believe, revelled in nature and made determined efforts to be there. Frequently referring to it. A more striking difference between these two individuals is hard to imagine. The relevance of which is that we, in our attempt to focus on Mozart and his genius find only disturbing facts that force us to consider what sort of ‘genius’ this Mozart was.

THE MOZART OF THE ‘GOLDEN YEARS’

The last decade of Mozart’s life, lived in Vienna (1781-1791) are believed to have brought forth from him most of the musical masterpieces with which he is today associated. American Musicologist H.C. Robbins Landon (1926-2009) has coined the phrase ‘Golden Years’ to describe that time in a book of that name and the term indicates how, according to convention, his musical genius entered in to easily his most productive and creative stage. (We will examine this Vienna period in the days ahead). And with good reason. Since the term implies a relationship existing between our subject and an embodied talent for creating works of such musical excellence that the works and the person are deemed to be one and the same thing. That too is an opinion worthy of modern study and question. Since the closest contemporary accounts of Mozart as a human being in the Austrian capital during that decade (his last) are less familiar, unflattering and striking than popular eulogy. Indeed, personal accounts of Mozart in Vienna are unable to be hidden. Which is why they are included, even in writings sanctioned by Constanze herself in that biography of ‘Nissen’. And glossed over ever since. Their presence there speaking volumes of their importance. Proving, beyond doubt (and confirmed in other ways) that he as a man was some distance, in reality, from his iconic image -

‘Mozart and Haydn, whom I knew well, never showed any intellectual power of any kind and barely any learning or higher culture. When in society they displayed only a common temperament, made insipid jokes, and in the case of the former, a thoughtless way of life’.

(Karoline Pichler - Writer and for some time major hostess of writers in Vienna during Mozart’s Vienna period).

And (after 1786, when Mozart was sat at a piano) -

‘All at once he had enough, jumped up from he chair AS HE OFTEN DID WHEN IN HIS FOOLISH MOODS, began to leap over a table and chairs, meowing like a cat, and turning somersaults like an uncontrollable boy’.

(Karoline Pichler)

And what of this ?

‘He was always in good spirits but very reflective at the best of times. He stared at everyone with a piercing glance, giving answers to everything but seemed at the same time to be lost in thought about something entirely different.

‘’Even when he washed his hands in the morning he continuously walked up and down, was never standing still, knocked one heel against the other and was always reflective. If seated at table he OFTEN took a napkin, twisted it, and rubbed it backwards and forwards under his nose, seeming because of his thought not to notice, and OFTEN made facial gestures at the same time. He was always keen for new forms of entertainment. Riding and billiards, for example. His patient wife did everything she could to keep him from bad company. He was ALWAYS moving his hands and feet, ALWAYS playing with something, for example his hat, his pockets, watch chain, tables, chairs, as if they were pianos‘’.

(Sophie Haibl - sister of Constanze - married Petrus Jacob Haibl, member of the Schickaneder theatrical group).

We must examine this side of Mozart. And will do so in the coming days. But the characteristics refered to above are disturbing and they find their equivalents elsewhere in reports from earlier in Mozart’s life. (For example, his ‘arched stare’ is noted when in conversation with examiner Daines Barrington in London (1770). These bizarre, even unstable mannerisms are a striking aspect of him as a human being and remind us of the close Mozart family association with early hypnotist Anton Mesmer (1734-1815), whose influence on the boy from the time of the stage work ’Bastien und Bastienne’ (K46b) in Vienna (and Mendel’s controversial influence later on musicians such as Josef Haydn and even on the blind composer/pianist Maria Theresia Paradise (1759-1824) are little appreciated but plain facts also.

To suggest, therefore, that Mozart‘s ‘genius is genius’ and that it may have our unquestioning belief in each and everything that is written of him is to construct an untested castle of musical achievement and ability whose foundations have hardly been checked. For, in terms of genius, the admissions of even his most complementary biographers can hardly be better summarised than this statement by Wolfgang Hildesheim -

‘ The representation of Mozart the man fluctuates between eulogy and apologia’ (p.7)

And, finally, what are we to make of this previously unpublished letter from German poet and writer Stefan Zweig (novelist, playwright, journalist and biographer) from an unpublished letter written to neurologist and psycho-analyst Sigmund Freud, (1856-1939) -

‘I hope that you, as one who understands the heights and depths will find the enclosed private printing, which I am making available to only a narrow circle, to be not entirely irrelevant: these 9 letters of the 21 year old Mozart, of which I publish one here in its entirety, for they throw a psychologically very remarkable light on his erotic nature, which, more so than that of any other important man, has elements of infantilism and coprophilia. It would actually be an interesting study for all the letters resolve consistently around the same thing’.

(Unpublished letter, quoted in Johannes Cremerius, ‘Stefan Zweigs Beziechung zu Sigmund Freud, ‘eine heroische Identifizierung’ contained in ‘Jahrbuch der Psychoanalyse’ - Berne, 7.p.77)

And similar sorts of letter survive that were undoubtedly penned by Mozart’s own mother Anna Maria Mozart (1720-1778) and others of the same family. What type of family must the Mozarts have been ?

Attempts have been made to dismiss such criticisms. Saying they were typical of Salzburg and of Austrian people at the time. The word ’nonsense’ comes to mind once more as the best answer to this aspect of Mozart’s ’genius’.

///

ON ‘GENIUS’

In an excellent study of what has been said and written on human genius from the 17th century till modern times I can find no fairer summary of that subject than the contents of an article made by Prof. D.M. McMahon, a professor of Literature in the USA. Who writes -

‘What I want to emphasise here is that the genius is a modern creation, and indeed prior to the 18th century, the word ‘genius’ would never have been applied in any of the Indo-European languages to a human being of either sex as a predicate. It was, rather, exclusively an object. One had a genius, one was not a genius ‘

How much more plain can that be ? Mozart, you say, was a ‘genius’. Really ?
And here, from the ‘Dictionaire Academie Francaise (1694) we find the word defined in the following way -

‘Genius - The spirit, or the demon, either good or bad which, according to the doctrines of old time accompanied men from their birth to death’.

Thus, a genie or genius, is not, never was, and could not be the person himself. Not according to the entire published literature up until the modern philosophical invention which would have you believe Mozart was ‘a genius’ himself. McMahon, keen to dispel the nonsense that surrounds use of this word writes -

‘’This is the first definition of ‘genius‘, and it is really the oldest, being the ancient idea of a tutelary spirit or god that accompanies men – and again it was exclusively men – from their birth to death, acting as a conduit to the sacred, a divine ‘companion’, as Horace describes it, a comes. The idea is primarily Roman – ‘genius’ being a Latin word, from the verb gigno/gignere, to father or to beget, ‘genius’ originally being thought of as a god of birth – but there were important Greek precedents, too, in the idea of the personal daimon or spirit, like that said to have accompanied Socrates (daimonion). And in fact the Greek and Roman notions tend to get conflated in the late Republic and into the Empire by people like Varro, Plutarch, and Apuleius, among others. ‘Il se dit aussi, de ces esprits ou demons qui,selon la doctrine des Anciens, president a` de certains lieux, a` des villes, &c. Le genie du lieu, le genie de Rome, du peuple Romain. On dit, Le genie de la France, pour dire, L’Ange tutelaire de la France.’

The Romans thought of ‘genii’ not only as deities who watched over the birth and development of men – and to whom one sacrificed on one’s birthday, the origin in fact of our birthday cake – but also as deities who watched over places (the genius loci) and corporations, which were likewise ‘born’ and ‘founded’ by fathers and looked after by ‘patrons’. By the late Empire, according to the fourth-century Roman grammarian Maurus Servius, there was ‘Nullus enim Locus sine Genio’. Virtually every place and corporation in Rome, from the Senate, to the baker’s guild, to local springs and army posts, had their own genius, the devotional statues of which still stand in the thousands in museums around the world. We are lucky to have them, for Christians made a concerted effort to smash them in the late fourth and fifth centuries, outlawing the practice of sacrificing wine to ‘genius’ in the Codex Theodosianus of the year 392.

(‘Genius of Maistre’ - Prof. Darren M McMahon, p. 21)

The ‘geni’ of Islamic culture may be cited as further examples. Ali Baba and the genie in the bottle, still another. In every case man himself is not a ‘genius‘. The word 'jinn' in Arabic is derived from j-n-n meaning, 'to hide' or 'to be hidden'. And what is occultism except that which is hidden from view. Other words derived from thiis root are majnūn 'mad' (literally, 'one whose intellect is hidden'), junūn 'madness', and janīn 'embryo, fetus' ('hidden inside the womb'). Thus, the hidden/obscured nature of the ‘genius’ is obvious. Arabic lexicons such as Edward William Lane's ''Arabic-English Lexicon'' define the jinn not only as spirits, but also anything concealed through time, status, and even physical darkness.

The French translators of ''The Book of One Thousand and One Nights'' used génie as a translation of jinnī because it was similar to the Arabic word in sound and in meaning. This use was also adopted in English and has since become dominant.

In conclusion, the life, career and rise to iconic status of the legendary W.A. Mozart as a virtually unquestioned member of a western musical pantheon, itself a clear example of a pagan belief system in revival, followed by the absurd, even childish description of the same Mozart as being a ‘genius’ (itself a corruption of its actual usage in antiquity). They provide two basic, clear evidences of this Mozart, as a musical and cultural phenomenon, being assumed, taught, and dogmatically enforced upon the musical, academic and cultural world since the 18th century as a product of a perverted pagan philosophy. With only minimal cross-examination of verifiable facts related to the phenonenon and often in flat contradiction to verifiable factst. Mozart, as a person, has been, is being deified, in fact, and his cult attracts attendance at pilgrimages, has icons and buffoonery consistent with it, and with virtually no criticism welcomed of the corruptive effects of his canonisation process upon musicology as a science, nor upon modern academic study of music and its history, nor accountability to students for the sort of education (so-called) provided to them as a consequence.

///

[yanni]

Yes, quite, Robert, but this thread is on "Handel/Bach" , his variations and-those of-his sons (Rousseau, Grimm, Wieland, Nicolai/de Nicolay and Immanuel Kant among others).

My contribution to your Mozart's manufacture can be studied in :

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46636

Thanks all the same!

[Musicology]

That's fine Yanni. I didn't want to leave it incomplete here.

Regards

[yanni]

As far as I am concerned this thread ended after revealing Immanuel Kant's true identity and "applied" trancendentalism feats in page 20.

:hand:


That's fine Yanni. I didn't want to leave it incomplete here.

Regards

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

Your revelations on ''Immanuel Kant's true identity and 'applied' transcendentalism'' (which you provided for us on page 20) is certainly a highlight of this thread. Whose subject title - ''The Puzzle of the so-called Bach Variations', will never, can never, be seen in the same way. Of this I am sure. It is more erudite by far than a room fool of canon lawyers !

(I dare to say that from approximately 3' 50'' on his short video to around 6' 13'' is the longest, most sustained episode of musical excellence I have ever heard. Ending my own contribution to this thread).

Regards

JS Bach
Cantata 140/1
Opening Chorus
Ton Koopman
Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bGe0j52KcA&feature=fvst


As far as I am concerned this thread ended after revealing Immanuel Kant's true identity and "applied" trancendentalism feats in page 20.

:hand:

[yanni]

Quoting from post #1 of this thread:

'Following the solution of many other 18th classical music puzzles in this forum (primarily "The Manufacture of Mozart" by Robert Newman-ehmmm-and "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" by yourstruly) Bach's famous variations (also known as "Goldberg variations", the re "tale" manufactured by musicologist "Nicolaus Forkel") can now easily be put in historic context and explained.

Interested parties are wellcome to study carefully thru am threads...

as well as....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations

http://www.keyserlingk.info/default....44&city=FAMILY

.....AND....

http://www.box.net/shared/iypxjy9f6g (last relative online publication-Sept 16, 2009 by Alexander Nicolas Graf Keyserlingk)

...and then declare herein their interest to participate in the discussion and assist in finding the solution to the title's puzzle.'

Your participation in the discussion is on record, Robert: Scripta manent!

Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year all!





....''The Puzzle of the so-called Bach Variations', will never, can never, be seen in the same way. Of this I am sure. It is more erudite by far than a room fool of canon lawyers !

[Musicology]

Hi Yanni,

Some 'problems' are solutions in themselves.

Anyway, best wishes for Christmas and the New Year. I hope you might like this -

Andreas Romberg
(1767-1821)
Clarinet Quintet Op. 57
Op. 57

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc81b_FhnGA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpKKGD2RqWM&feature=related

[yanni]

Hi Yanni,

Some 'problems' are solutions in themselves.



They rarely are, particularly when the devil in the detail is 'overlooked', such as, quoting from an earlier post of yours:

Claudius* ...Keeper of the King's (Cottonian) Library in 1745 ..in 1747 entered Parliament as M.P. for Tregony in Cornwall, holding the seat until 1754. From 1754 until 1756 he was M.P. for Sandwich. A supporter of the Duke of Newcastle, he became his Under-secretary of State, a post which he held under successive administrations until 1756**. On 26th November 1761, he married Frances, widow of George Compton, 6th Earl of Northampton, so becoming Lord of the Manor of Long Sutton......
.................................................. ............................................

1758 - Letter from Munchausen to West informing him of the commission charged by Messrs. Magens and Amyand on bills of exchange. And on forces in Germany

Would you 'care to disclose' Lady-Frances-father's name?

and

Would that be THE famous baron Munchausen himself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_M%C3%BCnchhausen...

...the "Monsieur Munchausen", trusted by the Hanoverian English King in 1757 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/57761384/Letters-to-His-Son--1756-1758-by-The-Earl-of-Chesterfield, p.5, "our friend Munchausen", p.11, who "embarked yesterday for Prince Ferdinand's army" (21st Sept 1758 "Munchausen"*** leaves England for Braunsweig) p34-35?

If so, kindly advise who this "West" was and do provide the exact 1758 dates, contents and sender's address for re letters!

...and care to name your "sources" as well!

Ta-ta!

*Claudius Amyand jr.

**April 8 1756: Kant applies for Knutzen’s position as associate professor of Logic and Metaphysics. The position remains unfilled.

***Kant’s application letters for the full professorship of Logic and Metaphysics that he wrote in December 1758 (see the discussion of Kant’s application for the position). In each of the three letters that he wrote — to the Rector and Academic Senate (Dec. 11; #7, Ak. 10:4), to the Philosophy Faculty (Dec. 12; #8, Ak. 10:5), and to Empress Catherine of Russia (Dec. 14; #9, Ak. 10:7) — Kant claims that he had lectured on each of the two subjects (logic, metaphysics) during each semester that he had been lecturing at the university — in his letter to the Rector and Academic Senate, he claims that he also taught additional courses privatissima. Given that these claims were about the recent past, and that the records would have been readily accessible, there is essentially no reason not to take these claims at face value. !!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I am out of this thread now. Since it is not discussing Bach or any variations but has all the appearance of a government building site with no management.

But what comes out of these rabbit holes remains to be seen. Handel's career was manufactured.

Regards

[Musicology]

For Baron von Munchausen try -

Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683-1767)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkhard_Christoph_von_M%C3%BCnnich

[yanni]

You may continue your fugues as it suits you, Robert and you may also make any remarks you find 'appropriate' while doing it but, friendly advise, try to look a little deeper in your 'rabbit holes'.

Both questions of my #400 post will be answered tommorow and....no, Burkhard Christoph von Münnich could not have been the same man as King George's friend Munchausen, he was too old in 1758, read the recommended book above.

Here is what its author, Lord Chesterfield, has to say for "appearances":

"Polished brass will pass upon more people than rough gold."

[Musicology]

Yes, but I am talking of the character of Baron von Munchausen. And you are talking of King George's friend. One came from the other.

The point is simple. Those with big agendas like to have cardboard re-enactments to confuse fact and fiction and to make elements of each interchangeable. And I am saying King George's friend Munchausen was -

Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683-1767).

On which the later literary character was built.

As for the significance of these things, the takeover of western governments, commerce, banking and so on required, in the fulness of time, the takeover of western art and culture itself. From within.



You may continue your fugues as it suits you, Robert and you may also make any remarks you find 'appropriate' while doing it but, friendly advise, try to look a little deeper in your 'rabbit holes'.

Both questions of my #400 post will be answered tommorow and....no, Burkhard Christoph von Münnich could not have been the same man as King George's friend Munchausen, he was too old in 1758, read the recommended book above.

Here is what its author, Lord Chesterfield, has to say for "appearances":

"Polished brass will pass upon more people than rough gold."

[yanni]

Wikipedia: Münnich's- military- activity was brought to a close by the revolution of 1741; he was arrested on his way to the border, and condemned to death. Brought out for execution, and withdrawn from the scaffold, he was later sent to Pelym, Siberia, where he remained for several years, until the accession of Peter III brought about his release in 1762. Catherine II, who soon displaced Peter, employed the old field marshal as director-general of the Baltic ports.

Any other source (apart from a lively, eggnog assisted (?), imagination)?

Remember post #216 of this thread?
The Seven Years' War (1756-1763), with Prussia and Great Britain fighting the alliance of Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, and Saxony, defined the lifes and the somewhat uncertain and complicated carreers of the heroes of this thread, such as the triple-faced JS Handel/Bach/Koch and the thousand- faced comte de Saint Germain-Cocchi-Koch.

From: The Second Little Clavier Book For Anna Magdalena Bach - 1725
By Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) or perhaps his chorrpräfect Johann Sebastian Koch, geboren 1689 in Ammern bei Mühlhausen und gestorben 1757 als Cantor in Schleiz or, most propably, by Handel, all brilliant-white Lutheran pipesmokers, honouring lyrics thru their music: Singspiel? Sounds like an early Joan Baez anyhow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fyg_147jd4

So oft ich meine Tobacks-Pfeife,
Mit gutem Knaster angefüllt,
Zur Lust und Zeitvertreib ergreife,
So gibt sie mir ein Trauerbild-
Und füget diese Lehre bei,
Daß ich derselben ähnlich sei.

Mühlhausen does have a certain resonant similarity to Münchausen, doesn't it!!


Regards!


Yes, but I am talking of the character of Baron von Munchausen. And you are talking of King George's friend. One came from the other.

The point is simple. Those with big agendas like to have cardboard re-enactments to confuse fact and fiction and to make elements of each interchangeable. And I am saying King George's friend Munchausen was -

Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683-1767).

On which the later literary character was built.

As for the significance of these things, the takeover of western governments, commerce, banking and so on required, in the fulness of time, the takeover of western art and culture itself. From within.

[yanni]

Symptom: Sudden loss of memory!
Diagnosis: Selective amnesia!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You may be one of the most confused and confusing individuals who has ever posted on the internet.

''Sudden loss of memory'' and ''selective amnesia'' on what, precisely ??

LOL :crash:

Here is something easy to remember - it may help more quickly than almost anything else ! But we won't go too fast (LOL)

BWV 8/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKMRNuCKHlM&feature=related



Symptom: Sudden loss of memory!
Diagnosis: Selective amnesia!

[yanni]

''Sudden loss of memory'' and ''selective amnesia'' on what, precisely ??


"Memory loss" symptoms from your part were evident throughout our conversation, Robert, but a "selective" amnesia could not be diagnosed with certainty as, in parallel, an apparent indifference to the need of-or existence even of-a detailed timeline was also endemic, as also your systematic refusal to name sources for obviously wrong statements/info supplied by you in the past.

An exception was your last blunder, Munnich, where you do name your source (Wikipedia) to then draw another notoriously wrong conclusion (that he was the same as my previous "Monsieur Munchausen"), in full contradiction to your own source and, when asked to provide another source to support your claim or at least an apology, you select to refuse answering alltogether.

Let me tell you that the specific 1758 Munchausen is very relevant to our Bach/Handel/Amyand/Cocchi/Koch story and, should you change your mind and wish really to assist in this research, by all means, do answer previous questions (now limited to the Munchausen to West correspondence late 1758), ie

Would you 'care to disclose' Lady-Frances-father's name?

and

Would that be THE famous baron Munchausen himself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_M%C3%BCnchhausen...

...the "Monsieur Munchausen", trusted by the Hanoverian English King in 1757 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/57761384...f-Chesterfield, p.5, "our friend Munchausen", p.11, who "embarked yesterday for Prince Ferdinand's army" (21st Sept 1758 "Munchausen"*** leaves England for Braunsweig) p34-35?

If so, kindly advise who this "West" was and do provide the exact 1758 dates, contents and sender's address for re letters!

...and care to name your "sources" as well!

OR

at least explain yourself!

Ta-ta!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I cannot teach you how to think. But if you insist on straying in to quicksand I tire of dragging you out. Forget the nonsense of 'amensia' because I have not forgotten how you claim to be one moment interested in reality and are the next so muddled that you do not see your track record of going round in circles.

My source on Munnich was one of a hundred easily accessible to you. And which you would do well to read. But what I did NOT say (and what tires me to repeat) is that the cardboard character of Baron von Munchausen was LATER invented upon him. Which is a fact you seem ignorant about. The latter was invented before 1785, after Munnich was already dead for decades. Thus, I do NOT, have NOT, and never would say they were the same. Since one was a real person and the other was a fictional character. Am I going too fast for you ?

You now tell us that Baron Von Munchausen (fictional character) was 'very relevant to the Bach/Handel/Amyand/Cocchi/Koch story, although here I must move in to capital letters to emphasise the point already made -

THESE MEN WERE ALL (EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM) DEAD LONG BEFORE THE FICTIONAL CHARACTER OF BARON VON MUNCHAUSEN WAS EVER INVENTED.

Am I going too fast for you ??

If not, please write again, because there is nothing in this for our conversation. And nothing for anyone who spends the time and effort reading it.


Regards

[yanni]

Gee, thanks for the lessons on Baron Munchausen's true identity, Robert!
Please continue teaching me as well on the identity of his wife (Frances Compton,later Amyand), her full family name, and on the identity and duties of his 1758 correspondent, only mentioned as 'West" in your previous.

Ta!

[Musicology]

Sorry, but the subject is of no interest to me. If you wish to tell us why your never ending family history research has relevance it might help. I think your energies are best spent justifying your posts so far. But that's only my view.

Verse for the Day -

''But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain''.

(Titus 3.9)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eWK0EUdCOI&feature=related

BWV 249
Adagio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQz899oW_8&feature=related



Gee, thanks for the lessons on Baron Munchausen's true identity, Robert!
Please continue teaching me as well on the identity of his wife (Frances Compton,later Amyand), her full family name, and on the identity and duties of his 1758 correspondent, only mentioned as 'West" in your previous.

Ta!

[yanni]

So, when you first presented in this here forum your '1758 Munchausen to West' find, you did it because it was irrelevant and not of interest to you?

Wow!



Sorry, but the subject is of no interest to me.

[Musicology]

If I present information on this thread it is because I consider it relevant to its title. Not because I wish to go off on a tangent. Obscurantism is not my forte.

This thread (as I must again point out) is on the 'puzzle' of the so-called 'Bach variations' and it seems you are unable to focus upon it. Let alone describe what is really 'puzzling' about it. And since this sort of situation is typical I find myself having to continually remind you of it. Munchausen is, I assure you, a story character based on a man who really existed but who had died decades before Baron von Munchausen became popular fiction. If you agree with this fact we can avoid dozens of useless exchanges on other issues.

(The best conversations are those which consist of agreement on what is actually being discussed, and progress is based on the fact of that agreement. Without which we are soon spinning round in a 'washing machine' without any issue related to the thread itself ever being resolved).

I am working on an article at the moment which deals with the documented musical 'genius' of Mozart, from records of a concert given in Mantua, Italy, on 16th January 1770. The 'genius' itself being criticised. But what relevance has that to this thread ? None, except you want me to discuss issues of equal irrelevance. Which I have already learned lead nowhere.

You should open new threads on a particular subject if you consider them worthy of specific discussion and not subject us to the turgid machinations of your diversionary obscurantism. Whose relevance is never provided.

Music, art, literature and culture came under increasing control during the 17th and 18th century from within by foreign elements which inflitrated and took it over in western Europe. Through bloodlines and by means of fraternal control. That is the significance of what I have posted here on Munnich. We might call it a third religion, one of occultist origin, since it is neither Christian nor Jewish. And that fact is one you seem wholly unable to accept. But the puzzle you refer to in this thread is supposed to be the subject of this thread. And it appears to be going nowhere.

JS Bach
Sonata for Violin and Basso Continuo
BWV 1023
First Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14SB1h7KUI8&feature=related

Regards





So, when you first presented in this here forum your '1758 Munchausen to West' find, you did it because it was irrelevant and not of interest to you?

Wow!

[yanni]

Thanks, Robert,

That's the answer a qualified C.R.A.P* member could only give, regretting his last monumental blunder to reveal enough details on HM's agent 'Munchausen'- close associate of King George II and 1758 correspondent of James West**,re arranging financing for Britain's war effort via Messrs George Amyand&Buckner of Hamburg -for yourstruly to then be able to clearly identify him as King George's trusted advisor, Claudius Amyand jr (who never really functioned as a librarian of the Cottonian), aka Frederick de Nicolay etc.

Claudius Amyand Jr was a son of Dr Claudius Amyand, also known, in his turn, as G.F.Handel/J.S.Bach/Dr Antonio Cocchi/Gerhard van Swieten and, most propably, 'John Theophilus Desaguliers' as well, Grand Master, 1719 and later too, of the Grand Lodge of England***, close associate of I.Newton and teacher of B.Franklin (in magnetism, electricity etc.)

More to follow, early next year, Dumbo allowing!

BTW Robert: Your selective amnesia hinders you in recalling what was made quite clear, early in this thread, that the subject is "Bach and Handel were the same person".

Happy New Year all!


*"Coordinated Research Association Producers"

**J.W. of Alscott Park, Secretary to the Treasury May 1746-Nov 1756 and July 1757 to May 1762. Treasurer 1767-1768.

***Officialy founded on St. John the Baptist's day, 24 June 1717, in London.







If I present information on this thread it is because I consider it relevant to its title. Not because I wish to go off on a tangent. Obscurantism is not my forte.

This thread (as I must again point out) is on the 'puzzle' of the so-called 'Bach variations' and it seems you are unable to focus upon it. Let alone describe what is really 'puzzling' about it. And since this sort of situation is typical I find myself having to continually remind you of it. Munchausen is, I assure you, a story character based on a man who really existed but who had died decades before Baron von Munchausen became popular fiction. If you agree with this fact we can avoid dozens of useless exchanges on other issues.

(The best conversations are those which consist of agreement on what is actually being discussed, and progress is based on the fact of that agreement. Without which we are soon spinning round in a 'washing machine' without any issue related to the thread itself ever being resolved).

I am working on an article at the moment which deals with the documented musical 'genius' of Mozart, from records of a concert given in Mantua, Italy, on 16th January 1770. The 'genius' itself being criticised. But what relevance has that to this thread ? None, except you want me to discuss issues of equal irrelevance. Which I have already learned lead nowhere.

You should open new threads on a particular subject if you consider them worthy of specific discussion and not subject us to the turgid machinations of your diversionary obscurantism. Whose relevance is never provided.

We might call it a third religion, one of occultist origin, since it is neither Christian nor Jewish. And that fact is one you seem wholly unable to accept. But the puzzle you refer to in this thread is supposed to be the subject of this thread. And it appears to be going nowhere.

JS Bach
Sonata for Violin and Basso Continuo
BWV 1023
First Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14SB1h7KUI8&feature=related

Regards

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Gentlemen,

I forgot to drop in wish both of you a Merry Christmas, so here's to hoping it was a good one.
Now I shall wish you a happy and prosperous new year.

Santa was pretty good to me this year. For example, he dropped off a new Pre amp for my turntable. Now I can enjoy the wonderful music captured on dozens of vinyl albums, most of which belonged to my parents.
As a matter of fact, I am listening to Bach's "Cantata BWV 199" and Cantata BWV 209"; Maria Stader soprano w/ Koln soloists ensemble while simultaneously perusing the sheet music to Handel's Messiah.

Keep up the good work and again happy new year!
Your favorite fan,

Gilliatt

[yanni]

Thanks and compliments for your-surprising revealing or rather 'conclusive'- musical choices, Gilliat:

A previously 'musicaly suppressed' (BWV199) young 'Bach', after 'seeing the light' in Rome and Venice, is invited (Dec 1709) by the brit embassador and 'Handel's' later friend , Charles Edward Montagu, 1st Duke of Manchester ,to perform in London, returns home to Ansbach (in 'Handel's' Saxe-Weissenfels and near 'Kant's' Erlangen) and is getting ready to leave friends and family behind to cross the channel, propably on his first sea voyage! ('Handel' arrives London Dec 1710).

On BWV 209: See 'The Cantatas of J. S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel Text by Alfred Dürr' p924 (on "winds and waves")

Your find is important because, among others, confirms that 'Bach' wrote his own verse in italian, ie crosschecks his 'Rolli', Cocchi, 'Amyand'-allegedly from Livorno, personae (and leads to finally remove quotes '' from Antonio Cocchi).

Propably of relevance: Maison du Spectacle--La Bellone contains one of the most impressive Baroque facades in Brussels, built between 1697-1708 by the sculptor and architect of the Grand Place (Main Market Square), Jean Cosijn. The bust above the main door represents La Bellone, the God of War. The house is an information and support center for different cultural organizations like Association de la Promotion de Spectacles pour Enfants, Center Belge de l'instituit International de Theâtre, Maison de la Parole, Contredanse and many more.

Best wishes again to all!

[Musicology]

Yanni speaks of the 'musically suppressed young Bach' when, in fact, he was around 30 years old already and the composer of several hundred works in virtually every form. Cantata 199 was one of these, having been written around 1714/15. But why let facts get in the way of a Yanni post ? (Cantata 199 dates from 4-5 years after GF Handel’s arrival in England and not before it). After Handel’s long period of being treated royally in Venice and Rome by cardinals and other spooks of the British Empire and having previously been recruited in Hamburg by feudal bankers of Italy (with British approval) and done nothing musical whatsoever in Germany. By why let facts get in the way of a Yanni post ?

As for the music of BWV 199 it comes from of one of the most unsuppressed musicians who ever lived. LOL !!!

J.S. Bach (1685-1750)
Aria
Wie Freudig Ist Mein Herz
Cantata
BWV 199

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leHbaBYCraY&feature=related

And, as for supreme talent - (while the elitists and their dopplegangers were wining and dining) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcUTIGi0F4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb7uu-Hkq0E&feature=related

LOL !! Can music speak for itself ?

:crash:

[yanni]

May the New Year bring you all you wish for, Robert, including solid evidence for your 'Bach' (a known copyist of music while in Kothen etc*) preferably from sources other than Munchausen's or Guliver's.


http://www.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/muehlhausen.html
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/LostWork-2.htm

*Johann Sebastian Bach copied all six suites sometime between 1709 and 1714,[2] and was influenced by Dieupart's music, particularly in the famous English Suites.[1]

[Musicology]

Yes Yanni,

Influence is a wonderful thing when it is creative. Best wishes for 2011.

O Mensch, bewein' dein' Sünde gross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeRKJy5-8k&feature=related

[yanni]

Your answer is out of context, Robert, and your suggested music and lyrics bring 'Bach's' own 'dreckohr' in mind.

To redeem yourself, kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 1761 owner of 'Tom's Coffee-house', also known as 'Literary Coffee House' in St. Martin's Lane (next to St Martin-in-the-Fields).

Ta-ta!

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Gentlemen,

...Santa was pretty good to me this year. For example, he dropped off a new Pre amp for my turntable. Now I can enjoy the wonderful music captured on dozens of vinyl albums, most of which belonged to my parents.
As a matter of fact, I am listening to Bach's "Cantata BWV 199" and Cantata BWV 209"; Maria Stader soprano w/ Koln soloists ensemble...

Gentlemen,
I thought you might enjoy seeing the album, so I took a picture of the front and portion of the bach.

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Misc%20Album/IMGP1225.jpg

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Misc%20Album/IMGP1226.jpg


On the cover, Bach appears to be a cross between a member of Fleetwood Mac and a Greenwich Village minstrel, anyhow, this might give you some food for thought.


Regards
Gilliatt
.

[yanni]

Bache/Handel ....devoted his last years to oratorio, showing that (in his own words)

"the English Language which is so expressive of the sublimest Sentiments, is the best adapted of any to the full and solemn Kind of Musick".

Nice picture,Gilliat: He is on his way to London, making sure his wallet is still in place (next to his 'Herze').

:smilielol5:

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 2010 Manager of Macdonalds restaurant in Athens, Greece. Since it will be more in context than your last post. You can provide a context, can't you Yanni ?

In the meantime, a musical divertimento -

J.S. Bach
Orchestral Suite No. 2
BWV 1067/1
Overture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJUSuzUDijw&feature=related

Ta, ta !!



Your answer is out of context, Robert, and your suggested music and lyrics bring 'Bach's' own 'dreckohr' in mind.

To redeem yourself, kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 1761 owner of 'Tom's Coffee-house', also known as 'Literary Coffee House' in St. Martin's Lane (next to St Martin-in-the-Fields).

Ta-ta!

[yanni]

Your pains to sterilize 'Bach' from his London family, friends and associates, are praiseworthy Robert but don't you find it of importance that his son, the aforementioned Claudius Amyand jr(aka Frederick de Nicolay, Immanuel Kant, J.J.Rousseau etc ), married Frances, daughter of rev Thomas Payne, on November 26, 1761?

Or that she, Frances, had also a brother, Thomas or Tom, bookseller/printer (1719-1799), address: 1) next the Mew's Gate, near St Martin's Church in Cheapside 2) near the South Sea House, Bishopsgate Street?

Were these Paynes related, I wonder, to the second Grand Master (freemason) George Payne (succeeded by John Desaguliers in 1719, ie Handel/Bach/HM's doctor Claude senior Amyand)?

Or to the "other" Thomas Paine (of MacDonalds)?

Naaaah, too paynefull to believe true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Payne_(Freemason)





Yanni,

Kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 2010 Manager of Macdonalds restaurant in Athens, Greece. Since it will be more in context than your last post. You can provide a context, can't you Yanni ?

In the meantime, a musical divertimento -

J.S. Bach
Orchestral Suite No. 2
BWV 1067/1
Overture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJUSuzUDijw&feature=related

Ta, ta !!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

This may be relevant to GF Handel. But how does it show JS Bach was ''the same man as GF Handel'' (and vice versa) ? You haven't told us. Thanks for the visit to an 18th century coffee shop but the facts remain the facts. What exactly is the connection you are still searching for ? Over several months you have played on the edge of GF Handel's career. A career which (I've repeatedly said) was massively faked. And which you may agree is a fact.

Shall I repeat those Handel posts which say so? With the published sources and text from letters of the time which say so ?

(I have the feeling 2011 may be a long year !!)

Anyway to make things more wonderful (and less fraudulent) - some music from a composer discovered by Vienna ('city of music') and everywhere else in the musical world only with great reluctance. And in small doses. Of course. LOL !!! You have to laugh at this.

Orchestral Suite 3 (aka Cosmic Dance No 239) LOL !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3vIONoYWc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bfJ7MOjtM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPN9TIHngpw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_etLMnGb8&feature=related



Your pains to sterilize 'Bach' from his London family, friends and associates, are praiseworthy Robert but don't you find it of importance that his son, the aforementioned Claudius Amyand jr(aka Frederick de Nicolay, Immanuel Kant, J.J.Rousseau etc ), married Frances, daughter of rev Thomas Payne, on November 26, 1761?

Or that she, Frances, had also a brother, Thomas or Tom, bookseller/printer (1719-1799), address: 1) next the Mew's Gate, near St Martin's Church in Cheapside 2) near the South Sea House, Bishopsgate Street?

Were these Paynes related, I wonder, to the second Grand Master (freemason) George Payne (succeeded by John Desaguliers in 1719, ie Handel/Bach/HM's doctor Claude senior Amyand)?

Or to the "other" Thomas Paine (of MacDonalds)?

Naaaah, too paynefull to believe true!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Payne_(Freemason)

[yanni]

Elementary, my dear Watson, provided of course you had gone to the trouble of following my advise, long ago, to start by reading my "Two works by Poe decoded", in this here forum, and then follow to next threads by me, all relevant and interlinked.

Can't make a list of the countless indications/evidence leading to last conclusion that 'Bach' (Johan Sebastian Koch actually)/Handel was the same with Dr Amyand/Cocchi, but, besides the fact of your own failure (to provide one single instance 'Bach' is on record as being at a different place than any of the other three), the fact Tom Payne arrived at McDonalds of Philadelphia carrying a letter of recommendation-for employment-addressed to Manager Richard Bache, signed by his father-in-law- and heavily indebted at the time* -B.Franklin, should suffice!

Franklin's own relations to many 'Cocchi Americano's', all relevant and interlinked as well- some even on record printing the 'revolutionary'-in its concept- and first ever 'McDonald catalogue' in Paris in parallel to the one by Paine in Philadelphia (on 'The Rights of Customer')- have long be established too,as per Poe thread above.

And no, it won't be a 'long 2011', the subject is exhausted but it propably is hard to digest, not just because of the form of presentation.

Regards!


*Finding out who french-minister-of-defense was then, will surely help you a lot.

PS "The facts remain the facts": I read it as a bad joke only!







Yanni,

This may be relevant to GF Handel. But how does it show JS Bach was ''the same man as GF Handel'' (and vice versa) ? You haven't told us. Thanks for the visit to an 18th century coffee shop but the facts remain the facts. What exactly is the connection you are still searching for ? Over several months you have played on the edge of GF Handel's career. A career which (I've repeatedly said) was massively faked. And which you may agree is a fact.

[Musicology]

This really is my last post on this thread. Once the clowns have left we can have some music. Richard Bache was an Englishman who died in 1811.

JS Bach (1685-1750)
Fantasie and Fugue in A Minor
BWV 944
Sviatoslav Richter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7OS_vpMz-s&feature=related

[yanni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I

...and close the door before you do!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

1. You have provided zero evidence JS Bach was GF Handel and vice-versa.

2. Your most recent posts have returned (once again) to information that may be of relevance to the fake career of GF Handel. (As I have said repeatedly). But not on JS Bach.

3. Over the past months you have provided not a single evidence of GF Handel and JS Bach being the same person. Have you ? Despite being asked repeatedly to provide some. But your reply is to rely on even more obscure hints and suggestions which have nothing, in fact, to do with the life and career of JS Bach. And still we want to see some evidence. The truth is you have none. And nor does anyone else.

4. Evidence has also been presented here of the fake career of G.F. Handel. Here (once again) are some of hundreds of proofs of this fact.

‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni)

And here, if you believe in reading/learning, is another (far more substantial in size) -

''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers: A Presentation of Evidence'' (1906)

http://www.mediafire.com/?t2v2385o6wdd76v

Conclusion -

One side is presenting facts and the other is not. You really do not know what you are talking about. Let others decide. Door now closed. As requested.

Regards

[yanni]

Tutti mi chiedono, tutti mi vogliono,
donne, ragazzi, vecchi, fanciulle:
Qua la parrucca. Presto la barba
Qua la sanguigna. Presto il biglietto
Figaro ... Figaro
Son qua, son qua.
Figaro... Figaro...
Eccomi qua.
Ahimè, che furia!
Ahimè, che folla!
Una alla volta, per carità!
Figaro su, Figaro giù
Pronto prontissimo son come il fulmine:
sono il factotum della città.
Ah, bravo Figaro!
Bravo, bravissimo;
a te fortuna non mancherà. 'Figaro, Figaro (1784)

Oxford's period of predominance was now at an end, and Anne turned to Bolingbroke and Marlborough to assume the reins of government and ensure a smooth succession. But beneath the weight of hostility the Queen's health, already fragile, rapidly deteriorated, and on 1 August 1714 (O.S) – the day the Marlboroughs returned to England – she died.[132] ....the regents chosen by George prepared for his arrival.[133] The accession boded ill for the 'men of Utrecht' – Bolingbroke and Oxford. Bolingbroke (a staunch Jacobite) fled to France, while vengeful Whigs pursued Oxford to the Tower. In contrast, Marlborough was received with the greatest cordiality. The new King had not entirely forgiven him his flirtations with Saint-Germain*, and he had no intention of employing him in any but military capacities. However, reappointed as Captain-General, Master-General of Ordnance, and Colonel of the 1st Foot Guards, Marlborough once more became a person of influence and respect at court.....While living at Windsor Lodge he suffered another stroke in June 1722, not long after his 72nd birthday. Finally, at 4 a.m on 16 June (O.S), in the presence of his wife and two surviving daughters Henrietta Godolphin and Mary Montagu, the 1st Duke of Marlborough died. (Wikipedia on Churchill, first duke of Marlborough)

George's mother, the Electress Sophia, died on 28 May 1714[29]. ….George was now Queen Anne's direct heir. He swiftly revised the membership of the Regency Council that would take power after Anne's death, as it was known that Anne's health was failing and politicians in Britain were jostling for power.[30] She suffered a stroke, which left her unable to speak and died on 1 August. The list of regents was opened, the members sworn in, and George was proclaimed King of Great Britain and Ireland.[31] Partly due to contrary winds, which kept him in The Hague awaiting passage,[32] he did not arrive in Britain until 18 September. George was crowned at Westminster Abbey on 20 October.[2]

Barber; Claudius Amyand, at 170l. per an., 1 Aug. 1714 to Michaelmas 1716 From: 'Declared Accounts: Civil List', Calendar of Treasury Books, Volume 30: 1716 (1958), pp. CLXXXIII-CCXVIII. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=85262 Date accessed: 06 January 2011.

One of the barber's sons, Claudius Amyand jr, in his father's steps:

He held many political appointments ; succeeded to one after Henry Fox, afterwards Lord Holland. He was M.P. for Tregony and Sandwich. He died in 1774,**without issue, having married Lady Northampton, and was buried in Langleybury Church, Hertfordshire. CHARLES HAWKINS. Savile Row.

It may interest MR. WINTERS to know that in theyear 1762 there was a banking firm in London styled Sir George Amyand***, Staples & Mercer, carrying on business in Cornhill, near to Gracechurch Street.
In 1776 this firm became Staples, Baron Dimsdale & Co., 50, Cornhill, which now flourishes under the style of Dimsdale & Co****. F. G. H. PRICEhttp://nq.oxfordjournals.org/content/s5-IV/98/397.3.full.pdf+html

*"Saint Germain" refers to James II, living in Paris, France at the time of Marlborough's alleged "flirtations". http://www.history.com/topics/james-ii-britain
** a convenient year for a premature death.
***Died 16 August 1766.
****It was Dr.Dimsdale&Co's withdrawal (of their credit insurance coverage) however, early 1771, that brought about the collapse of Scottish Banks in 1772. http://www.electricscotland.com/history/banking/chapter9.htm

[Musicology]

Rare video from Autumn of 1717* (* LOL) of a certain JS Bach warming up to meet the keyboard challenge given to him by one Jesuit superstar Louis Marchand (1669-1732)- Marchand returning home without bothering to compete. (Friends in high places, or what ??). Must have been GF Handel instead, yes ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzY3tFTz9k&feature=related

[yanni]

Trusting solid(!) evidence as provided by the same old suspects?

I have news for you:

Perhaps the most famous anecdote about Marchand is the account of the competition he was supposed to have with Johann Sebastian Bach in Dresden in September 1717. According to Marpurg, Jakob Adlung, and other German sources (the story is not found in any French documents), the two composers were to have a contest in harpsichord performance, and Marchand fled before Bach's arrival, apparently out of fear of being defeated. This story, retold with various embellishments by Bach's later biographers such as Johann Nikolaus Forkel, was only subjected to close scrutiny by late 20th century scholars; no conclusive proof exists that Marchand ran away, or even that he knew the competition was to take place.[3] Note 3: See Williams, 2007 (...and wake up to reality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Marchand (Of note: There seem to be no french records available concerning a return to France, following his 1713 alleged "trip to Germany", either. His biography ends then and "there").

:smilielol5:

Merry Xmas (today, in line with the Julian calendar)!

[Musicology]

Actually, the account of what happened in late 1717 in the challenge made by Marchand on JS Bach comes from well within Bach's own lifetime. From the year of 1739, in fact. From J.A. Birnbaum, teacher of rhetoric in Leipzig. And from various others of around the same time.

He writes that Marchand was ‘the greatest man in all France on the clavier and the organ’ and the contest was to have taken place on the clavier (1739;Dok.II p.348, NBR p.79). There was also Jakob Adlung, who claims to have had the same story confirmed by Bach himself, using the same terminology (1758; Dok.III p.121, BR p.445).

I suppose that makes it worthy of your belief. But if not, well, at least you see it is not an invented idea.

Toccata
BWV 915
Inese Klotina, piano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU5NT3bMuk&feature=fvst

[yanni]

The repetition of halftruths does not make your burden any lighter, dear Watson, neither does your selection to avoid mentioning your source -which happens to be the very one (Williams) who concludes that the 1717 contest is unsourced*!

Your 'JSBach' was just as great a liar, fake, cheat etc as your 'GFHandel'**, qualities that were apparently of greater value to the Hanoverian courts (than Louis XIV's- as 'Marchand'***most propably, his music included in Magdalena's buchlein as well) hence his later deification in London!

To conclude: Three centuries after 'Amyand's' London arrival, the fact not just musicologists but historians as well, are still 'reluctant' to reveal the truth, supporting their own 'conclusions' thru such trustworthy 'sources' reveals just how wide the C.R.A.P association really still is.

Ta-ta!

*Birnbaum's 'source' was 'JSBach' himself, the contest further 'confirmed' by 'Bach's' own 'Obituary'. (see J.S. Bach: a life in music By Peter F. Williams p 118-9)
**In his book on Bach, Williams has 96 references on Handel , indirectly confirming their common identity.
***We have to thank, besides 'Bach', another notorious liar, moreover a scottsman, for 'Marchand's early biography details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vrard_Titon_du_Tillet, his 'story' proving our hero's strong links and influence in 1740's Paris.


Actually, the account of what happened in late 1717 in the challenge made by Marchand on JS Bach comes from well within Bach's own lifetime. From the year of 1739, in fact. From J.A. Birnbaum, teacher of rhetoric in Leipzig. And from various others of around the same time.

He writes that Marchand was ‘the greatest man in all France on the clavier and the organ’ and the contest was to have taken place on the clavier (1739;Dok.II p.348, NBR p.79). There was also Jakob Adlung, who claims to have had the same story confirmed by Bach himself, using the same terminology (1758; Dok.III p.121, BR p.445).

I suppose that makes it worthy of your belief. But if not, well, at least you see it is not an invented idea.

Toccata
BWV 915
Inese Klotina, piano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU5NT3bMuk&feature=fvst

[Musicology]

'No conclusive proof that Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition in 1717' ? LOL !!! We have documentary evidence of it from Bach's own lifetime. And from years after his death. What IS conclusive proof ? It is a documented fact Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition and ran away when he heard his opponent practicing the evening before it was due to take place. And you don't like documented facts. So I will give you more. Because you specialise in avoiding them.

Marchand came to tour in Germany for several years from late 1713 onwards. In September 1717 the Dresden court was to have been the scene of a contest between Marchand and J.S. Bach. And there are not two but three sources of the time who say so. They all describe this unflattering episode in Marchand’s career - F.W. Marpurg, J.A. Birnbaum and Jacob Adlung; all of whom agree Marchand slipped away. I wonder why ? Possibly because the music speaks for itself. LOL !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbHoaQbyaU&feature=related

[yanni]

Are you now questioning your own source's authority on Bach?

If so, please present your credentials in this forum for the reader to compare with...

Peter Williams (Musicologist, Arranger)

Born: May 14, 1937 - Wolverhampton, England

The eminent English musicologist, organist, and harpsichordist, Peter (Fredric) Williams, was educated at St. John's College, Cambridge (BA, 1958; Mus.B., 1959; MA, 1962; Ph.D., 1963).

In 1962 Peter Williams joined the faculty of the University of Edinburgh as a lecturer, subsequently becoming a reader (1972) and a professor (1982), where he held the first chair in performance practice in the UK. In 1985 he was made Arts and Sciences Distinguished Professor at Duke University in Durham, N.C., where he was chairman of the music department (1985-1988), university organist (1985-1990), and director of the graduate center for performance practice studies (from 1990).

As a performing artist, Peter Williams made appearances as a recitalist from 1965. As a scholar, he ranks among the foremost authorities on the organ. In addition to his learned books and articles, he has served as general editor of the series Biblioteca Organologica (80 volumes, 1966 et seq.) and as founding editor of The Organ Yearbook (from 1969). He is also founder-general editor of the series Cambridge Studies in Performance Practice and of the Duke University series Sources and Interpretation of Music. He is also general editor of the New Oxford J.S. Bach Edition.

Writings

The European Organ 1450-1850 (London, 1966; 2nd edition, 1968)
Figured Bass Accompaniment (2 vols., Edinburgh, 1970; 2nd edition, 1972)
Bach Organ Music (London, 1972; 2nd edition, 1974)
A New History of the Organ From the Greeks to the Present Day (London, 1980)
The Organ Music of J.S. Bach (3 vols., Cambridge, 1980-1984)
editor: Bach, Handel and Scarlatti; Tercentenary Essays (Cambridge, 1985)
Playing the Works of Bach (New York, 1986)
The Organ (London and New York, 1988)
with L. Todd, editor: Mozart: Perspectives in Performance (Cambridge, 1991)
The Organ in Western Culture 750-1250 (Cambridge, 1993)
The King of Instruments or, How Do Churches Come to Have Organs? (London, 1993)
The Goldberg Variations (Cambridge University Press, 2001)
The Life of Bach? (2004)

Source: Baker’s Biographical Dictionary of 20th Century Classical Musicians (1997)

Never said ALL brit musicologists are C.R.A.P members, did I?

Ta-ta!

PS Having checked the fact using a friend's portable, I now confirm that this subject indeed now rates #3 in 139000 when googling for "Bach variations" (with the quotes included)

[Musicology]

There are at least 3 documented references to the Bach contest from men alive during Bach's time. That's good enough for me. And it will be good enough unless/until they are all shown to be wrong. Does it get more simple ? Don't waste your life on nonsense Yanni. Obscurantism is a form of deliberate ignorance.

Toccata in D Major
BWV 912/2
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjtw3MwNruo&feature=related

[yanni]

Thank you for your,never-asked-for,demonstration of unlimited credulness. Please continue by presenting your credentials, if any!

[Musicology]

See Credentials Below

[Musicology]

Thank you for your,never-asked-for,demonstration of unlimited credulness. Please continue by presenting your credentials, if any!

Certainly. Here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByLvd1HoCac&playnext=1&list=PLF81B6EFFAE902A3B&index=26

[yanni]

Haec est fides bachiana/handeliana, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit. Amen.

On the other hand, Goldman said it continues to see that current U.S. fundamentals are consistent with a gradual dollar depreciation. It cited the country's large current account and fiscal deficits, which will remain an obstacle to strong investment inflows into the United States

:coolgleamA:

[yanni]

The Weathercock, a musical entertainment of two acts,was performed at Covent Garden Theater October 17 (1775):

The Characters

Amyand (Sir Rowland- leading role) .........(by) Mr Mattocks

Etc

Of great 'cultural' interest the play's following verse

Love’s the bane* of female glory,
Friendship’s all we dare bestow
She who would be fam’d in story
Must at distance keep the foe
But the fair who once surrenders
By a gale of passion blown
To the hands of weak defenders
Yields the glory of her own.

*that which causes ruin or woe

see The Hibernian magazine, or, Compendium of entertaining knowledge etc (Dublin) Vol 5,p664

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1775 19 April - The American Revolution begins with the battles of Lexington and Concord
14 June The United States Army is Founded by the Continental Congress. Battle of Bunker and Breeds Hill
8 August The famous 'diner de Metz', when the young marquis de La Fayette was convinced by the guest of honour, the visiting Duke of Gloucester, George III's brother, that the insurgents' revolt in America was in some measure justified.
“Claude Louis” comte de Saint-Germain war service was 27 October 1775 -27 September 1777
27 October 1775 US revolutionary congress authorises banknotes.
31st October Pygmalion is represented with the Comédie-Française, without the consent of Rousseau, and gains a great success, (the first representation in France).

Frédéric à Voltaire, Potsdam, 4 décembre 1775
J'ai participé à la faveur que le roi de France a faite à M. de Saint-Germain. Ce brave officier m'est connu de longtemps; il ne se rendra pas indigne de la place qu'il a obtenue. Il a tout le mérite qu'il faut pour la remplir, et un zèle bien louable pour le bien public; ce qui doit le rendre recommandable à tous les honnêtes gens.

26 December - Battle of Trenton

1776
January 1776 Thomas Paine a proponent of a free USA.

Thomas Dimsdale with his sons opened a banking house in 1776 in Cornhill (See http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki/Dimsdale,_Fowler,_Barnard_%26_Dimsdales,_London,_1 759-1891 : Dimsdale Bank takes over 'Amyand, Staples & Mercer at 49 and 50 Cornhill, City of London')

[yanni]

To the lying keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological garbage:

Subject: The 1770 Mozart contact to 'an englishman" while in Italy

-The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54106&highlight=Charles+Burney&page=2)

By same man sometime later:

-The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence. Later made a Baron of the Holy Roman Empire and a vital contact between the British Empire and the Holy Roman Empire in matters of culture, art and music. And, as for the stage managed progress of the secularisation of society, it involved, of course Benjamin Franklin, elites of Britain and of continental Europe). In a huge revival of pagan religion and philosophy which became, eventually, globalism.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59067&page=2, post 24)

:party:

[lellyvigni]

To the lying keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological garbage:

Subject: The 1770 Mozart contact to 'an englishman" while in Italy

-[I]The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject.

Hi Yanni

I understand your point of view,
I thank you for your messages.

I'm a musician, I like Mozart's music also.
But I think that what you're quoting here is not at all musicological garbage. I think that this is just the official version of facts. In the Koechel catalogue of Mozart’s works from the very first to the last one, there is no Miserere attributed to Mozart in the section which deals with the work of other authors.
So the musicological version is that of "Musicology" and that of German Musicology also. Mozart didn't copy the Miserere of Allegri. He didn't write any Miserere by Allegri, in fact. It is just a legend :).

[yanni]

Why did you avoid the main issue of my last post...... Robert?


Hi Yanni

I understand your point of view,
I thank you for your messages.

I'm a musician, I like Mozart's music also.
But I think that what you're quoting here is not at all musicological garbage. I think that this is just the official version of facts. In the Koechel catalogue of Mozart’s works from the very first to the last one, there is no Miserere attributed to Mozart in the section which deals with the work of other authors.
So the musicological version is that of "Musicology" and that of German Musicology also. Mozart didn't copy the Miserere of Allegri. He didn't write any Miserere by Allegri, in fact. It is just a legend :).

[lellyvigni]

Why did you avoid the main issue of my last post...... Robert?

Hi Yanni

mmm ... I see your mind is busy with conspiracies theories.

I'm not Robert. I'm the Marquis of Ligniville. You could call me ... Marquis, if you like :).

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

I am certainly not Lellyvigni. In fact if your last posts were less aggressive I would have replied to you by now. They contain nothing new. Except a new kind of insults. Very interesting they are also.

Greetings to Lellyvigini !

I am pleased you are interested in the subject of W.A. Mozart (the real one and not the invention) and that you have studied the subject in some detail. Please tell us what you think about the PDF thread by L. Bianchini which was closed after few people actually managed to read it. It is always good to hear from researchers on this subject. (Yanni has timelines and we may perhaps discuss the actual evidence). He wants to prove that GF Handel and JS Bach are the same person. Which is an amusing subject, you may agree ?

As for Leopold Mozart and the faked exam of 1770 in Bologna this is connected with the claim that Wolfgang wrote a version of the Allegri Miserere in Rome from memory during that same year. Which, as you correctly say, has never been proved. Because it too is another Mozart myth. Since a Mozart version of the Allegri 'Miserere' has never been contained in any published list of Mozart's arrangements. Never. In fact. You are completely correct. Best wishes to you.

[lellyvigni]

Hi there Yanni,

Greetings to Lellyvigni !

I am pleased you are interested in the subject of W.A. Mozart (the real one and not the invention) and that you have studied the subject in some detail. Please tell us what you think about the PDF thread by L. Bianchini which was closed after few people actually managed to read it. It is always good to hear from researchers on this subject. (Yanni has timelines and we may perhaps discuss the actual evidence). He wants to prove that GF Handel and JS Bach are the same person. Which is an amusing subject, you may agree ?

As for Leopold Mozart and the faked exam of 1770 in Bologna this is connected with the claim that Wolfgang wrote a version of the Allegri Miserere in Rome from memory during that same year. Which, as you correctly say, has never been proved. Because it too is another Mozart myth. Since a Mozart version of the Allegri 'Miserere' has never been contained in any published list of Mozart's arrangements. Never. In fact. You are completely correct. Best wishes to you.

Hi Musicology,
I suppose you are the Robert that Yanni supposed I was. ... :)

Nice to meet. Yes, I see your point.

I know there is this letter, written by Leopold (1770) - is this the document you are refering to?

"He had to appear in the Hall of the Academy at four o`clock in the afternoon. There the Princeps Accademiae and 2 Censores who all three are old Kappelmeisters, put before him, in the presence of all the members, an antiphon taken from an Antiphoner, on which he had to write a 4-part setting in an adjoining room, where he was taken by the Pedellus, who then locked the door after him. Once he had completed it the paper was examined by the Censores and all chapel masters and composers. Then a vote was taken which was done by means of white and black balls. As all the balls were white he was called in and everyone applauded his entry and congratulated him. ...Everyone was amazed he completed the exam so quickly as many people had spent 3 hours on a 3-line Antiphon"

I'm interested in that pdf you're talking about. Where can I download it? Could you provide me with a link.

Thanks to you and Yanni for allowing me to participate in these discussions :).

[Musicology]

Dear Marquis,

Thank you for your letter

The brilliant research of Luca Bianchini deserves credit for bringing together all of the documentary evidence in this PDF - the most detailed article on the hoax of 1770 which has so far been published.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

I hope you find it interesting and informative. It is a small but basic part of the ongoing criticism of the cultural and musical myth that is Mozart. There are more than a dozen similar articles that will shortly become available.

Yanni will no doubt join in congratulating Mr Bianchini for this outstanding work.

Regards

Robert Newman

[lellyvigni]

Dear Marquis,

Thank you for your letter

The brilliant research of Luca Bianchini deserves credit for bringing together all of the documentary evidence in this PDF - the most detailed article on the hoax of 1770 which has so far been published.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

I hope you find it interesting and informative. It is a small but basic part of the ongoing criticism of the cultural and musical myth that is Mozart. There are more than a dozen similar articles that will shortly become available.

Yanni will no doubt join in congratulating Mr Bianchini for this outstanding work.

Regards

Robert Newman

Hi Musicology,
thank you for your kind message.

I agree that this Miserere story is just a legend. One of many.
It's a legend also that a person could be 'excommunicated' just for copying it. There is no trace of any such Mozart version in the documents of the Vatican.
It is a legend there was a document threatening excommunication for the copying of the Allegri 'Miserere' because in the archives of the Vatican I did not find any papal bulls or any documents that states there was ever any such threat of excommunication or forbidding it from being copied.It is also a legend that there were no copies of the Allegri Miserere available in Rome in 1770. In fact, as you know, Mr Newman, there were dozens available. Thank you.

I'll download the pdf. Thank you Mr. Musicology :).

[yanni]

I'll give it another try, improving the language of my previous:

To the 'noble' keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological productions, member of C.R.A.P. aka Markiss-my-a**- de Lyingville, ie Robert Newman, author-to-be of 'The Manufacture of Mozart':

Subject: The 1770 Mozart contact to 'an englishman" while in Italy

-The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/for...+Burney&page=2)

By same man sometime later:

-The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence. Later made a Baron of the Holy Roman Empire and a vital contact between the British Empire and the Holy Roman Empire in matters of culture, art and music. And, as for the stage managed progress of the secularisation of society, it involved, of course Benjamin Franklin, elites of Britain and of continental Europe). In a huge revival of pagan religion and philosophy which became, eventually, globalism.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=59067&page=2, post 24)

Is that better?

:party:

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I post as 'Musicology'. You have made a mistake. Try again.

'Lellyvigni' is the Marquis of Ligniville. I do not know this man. But at least I have replied to him. He obviously knows a great deal about this subject.

[yanni]

Marquis or not, you still have to provide an explanation for your change of tune re the identity of Mozart's 1770 'englishman'.

:yesnod:



Yanni,

I post as 'Musicology'. You have made a mistake. Try again.

'Lellyvigni' is the Marquis of Ligniville. I do not know this man. But at least I have replied to him. He obviously knows a great deal about this subject.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Do you correct your mistakes ? I am not the Marquis. I have already told you this, twice. I have no idea what the Marquis thinks about this. He is not me. I am not him. Is this simple enough or shall I write it again ???

The Englishman you have asked about is NOT identified. Is he ? That means it could be one of several Englishmen who are known to have been involved with Mozart's career. An aristocrat, for sure. And there are numerous candidates. What is the problem with saying so ? Has this not helped you ? You may consider the question yourself and you may actually post some real information for once. I have now given two candidates for you to consider because both were involved in Italy with the career of Mozart. And both were Englishmen. That is better than your posts which provide nothing on this question. Do they ? When the composer Josef Mysliveveck died in 1781 in Rome his funeral expenses were paid for by..... ''an unidentified Englishman''. That means the exact English person is not clear. Doesn't it ? Any suggestions ? So I have not 'changed my tune'. I have provided not one but two suggestions. Either are possible. Which fact you now complain about. Shall I stir your coffee when you put some sugar in it ? May I drink it for you also ? LOL !

Is this message clear enough ?



Marquis or not, you still have to provide an explanation for your change of tune re the identity of Mozart's 1770 'englishman'.

:yesnod:

[yanni]

In other words, Robert, when relaxed, earlier on, you were quite sure, having researched the matter in detail, that...

Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart').

..but when under pressure (from 'his excellency general Koch' who took you by surprise), the englishman changes to 'propably Clavering-Cowper' (whom the Mozarts had no problem naming earlier on in Florence):

The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence.

Two distinctly different tunes.




Yanni,
The Englishman you have asked about is NOT identified. Is he ? That means it could be one of several Englishmen who are known to have been involved with Mozart's career. An aristocrat, for sure.... I have now given two candidates for you to consider because both were involved in Italy with the career of Mozart.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Stop ! You are totally confused. There is not one but various options. You now have two. Both are possibles. Either may be the one.

Am I going too fast ?
:nopity:

[lellyvigni]

I'll give it another try, improving the language of my previous:

To the 'noble' keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological productions, member of C.R.A.P. aka Markiss-my-a**- de Lyingville, ie Robert Newman, author-to-be of 'The Manufacture of Mozart':

Hi Yanni,

Most Reverend Innay,
Celebrated Knight of the Golden Spur.
You are too modest to confirm that. Nevetheless I can guess
how graceful your mannners are.

I see thou thinkest I am Robert
If I would think thou art Robert would thou be ?
Yanni, why do you always hide such a divine attitude
Under such a rude, impolite, insolent appearance ?

If I would be Ligniville
as I am - Eugene
and also François

Marquis de la Maison de Loraine
How many Ligniville
would there be ?

(Sonnnet translated from Languedoc)

Innay (nom de guerre Yanni). I' sorry :sad: you are lost in the puzzle of the so-called 'Yanni Variations'. Hope you'll find a hint and a solution to those conspiracy theories which persecute your living days.

I most humbly kiss your hands and am

Most Gracious Knight
and Lord

Most submissive and obedient
Devoted and grateful
Servant

Marquis de Ligniville

[lellyvigni]

Dear Marquis,

Thank you for your letter

The brilliant research of Luca Bianchini deserves credit for bringing together all of the documentary evidence in this PDF - the most detailed article on the hoax of 1770 which has so far been published.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

I hope you find it interesting and informative. It is a small but basic part of the ongoing criticism of the cultural and musical myth that is Mozart. There are more than a dozen similar articles that will shortly become available.

Yanni will no doubt join in congratulating Mr Bianchini for this outstanding work.

Regards

Robert Newman

Hi Robert,

Thank you very much for the link. I've just downloaded the file. I'm reading the pdf. It seems to be interesting :).

[yanni]

Compliments for your, aesthetically unique, verse, markiss-my-a**!

[Musicology]

Dear Marquis,

I hope you will forgive the crudities of Yanni's more recent posts. These are side effects of him relying too heavily on a musical diet of timelines and multiple personalities. (He is nice when you get to know him. Honest. Although he does lapse in to the idea that J.S. Bach and G. F. Handel are the same man).

A small example of Bach.

BWV 1053/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ27A9wahaI&feature=related

[lellyvigni]

Compliments for your, aesthetically unique, verse, markiss-my-a**!

Adieu, Yanni, teller of 1,000 Arabian Nights :).

Markiss-your-face Eugène François De Ligniville

[lellyvigni]

Dear Marquis,

I hope you will forgive the crudities of Yanni's more recent posts. These are side effects of him relying too heavily on a musical diet of timelines and multiple personalities. (He is nice when you get to know him. Honest. Although he does lapse in to the idea that J.S. Bach and G. F. Handel are the same man).

A small example of Bach.

BWV 1053/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ27A9wahaI&feature=related

Hi Robert

I thank you. I've read the pdf. I'll open a new thread, so we do not disturb Yanni :sleep:, and we could continue with Mozart :).

[Musicology]

Lellyvigni,

I am glad you've read the PDF. Yes, please open a new thread and I will be happy to share with you on Mozart.

Regards




Hi Robert

I thank you. I've read the pdf. I'll open a new thread, so we do not disturb Yanni :sleep:, and we could continue with Mozart :).

[yanni]

Returning the compliments:

There were two "padre Martinis" in Italy, 1770, both musicologists and both involved with the Mozarts and their mysterious "english friend" (or friends, if they were two as you say).

Can you name them and trace their whereabouts with regard to the Mozarts, Burney and/or Cowper, and Herr Misliwetschek as well?

Did the Mozarts visit Venice in August?

Ta-ta!

PS While at it, you may also try solving the puzzle of Berezovsky's Symphony in C, composed around 1770-72. October 1773 Berezovsky returned to St Petersburg with 'youknowho'!





Yanni,

Stop ! You are totally confused. There is not one but various options. You now have two. Both are possibles. Either may be the one.

Am I going too fast ?
:nopity:

[yanni]

27 June 1770 Rome: LEOPOLD MOZART TO HIS WIFE IN SALZBURG We arrived here in Rome at 8 o`clock yesterday evening by mail coach, taking 27 hours for a journey that took 4 and a half days by vitturino [1] . But we really flew. Count Kaunitz didn`t arrive until today: I thought it would be better if we travelled on our own as it`s not always possible to find enough horses at the post-stages, in which case we`d have had the honour of spending half a day at the post-stage waiting for the horses to return, all the more so in that I knew that His Excellency General Koch was leaving for Rome with 5 horses and a certain Englishman with 7. And so we left Naples on our own and I told everyone we met that I was the steward of the imperial ambassador, because the stewards of such gentlemen are held in high regard hereabouts. This not only made my journey safer, but I was also given good horses and prompt service, while in Rome I didn`t need to go to the Customs House to have our things examined. Instead I was received at the gate with a deep bow and simply told to drive on… http://letters.mozartways.com

7 juillet 1770 Abbé Galliani (from Naples?) à Madame d'Epinay: Je crois vous avoir écrit que ce petit Mozart est ici, et qu'il est moins miracle, quoi qu'il soit toujours le meme miracle, mais il ne sera jamais qu'un miracle. Et c'est tout… Adieu encore. Je vous embrasse, en dépit du scandale de Panurge et de tous les envieux de notre tendre correspondance .

Here is, then, a summary list of crucial questions for any Mozart scholars to answer re his 1770 Bologna exams etc:

1.What was 'His Excellency General Koch' doing in Naples and Rome, alongside Kaunitz, at the time?
2,Who was he?
3.How did he relate to the Mozarts?
4.Who was the 'certain engishman'?
5.How do they all link to Wolfgang-Amadeus's 'padre Martini' and, in particular, to 'abbe Galiani'? Who were these expert musiciens-opera composers?
6.There were two "padre Martinis"* in Italy, 1770, both musicologists and both involved with the Mozarts and their mysterious "english friend". Can you name them and trace their whereabouts with regard to the Mozarts, Burney and/or Cowper, and Herr Misliwetschek** as well?
7.Did the Mozarts visit Venice in August***?
8.PS While at it, you may also try solving the puzzle of Berezovsky's Symphony in C, composed around 1770-72. October 1773 Berezovsky returned to St Petersburg with 'youknowho'!

*Not included in the two 'padre Martinis' is another 'great unknown' composer,'Giovanni Battista Sammartini' whom the Mozarts also met in Italy, 1770. (Saint Martin's miracles, heh-heh)
**R.Newman:'It is surely a remarkable coincidence that Mozart, commissioned to write ‘Betulia liberata’ for Padua was unable to do so, and yet the very same piece was composed by Josef Myslivececk in Padua, in that very same year of 1771, now lost ! '
***see the 'August blank' at http://www.mozartproject.org/biography/ch_66_70.html

[yanni]

This thread is hereby terminated. Musicologists with a flare for history are advised to look at yourstruly's relative posts at http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1009575#post1009575 providing the answers to the previous questions and more.

Thank you for your attention!

[Musicology]

This is a Mozart thread. Have you noticed this yet ?


Yes, ofcourse, Your Grace, that's an exquisitely ornamented nut case.

Care to open it and tell us when Frederick De Nicolay was appointed Queen Charlotte's backstairs page?