Old Photo

[Hawkman]

Where is he now?
The young man in the photograph,
sitting at a table with a cold beer,
white shorts, white shirt
and sunburnt skin,
al fresco at a Cretan café,
looking pensive.

I remember the morning walk -
cicada’s rasp in constant counterpoint
to ragged steps,
the hot, dry air,
dead dog beside the dusty road -
the young man though,
I don’t remember him at all.

[hillwalker]

I like this a lot H. Especially the last line that suggests that young man is closer to the writer than he is letting on (autobiographical perhaps?).

I just feel the last line in verse 1 is unnecessary and tends to divert the reader's eye from the image you have so skilfully pencilled in. Just my personal opinion of course, so digest then discard by all means.

H

[PrinceMyshkin]

I too assume that the young man in the photograph is yourself - your longlost self? But, whether that is so or not, I heartily dissent from Hilllwalker's comment about the last line of stanza 1. I love to think about those aspects of the past, maybe especially of one's own irredeemable past, that cannot be recovered. Perhaps, indeed, one might speculate that his pensiveness is a wondering of how he might appear to a future onlooker at the photograph?

Anyway, the graphic details of verse 2 are accentuated by the puzzle over that pensiveness. And I love how unforced everything in this is.

[Bar22do]

I think the guy is NOT you, you caught him on the photo as if by chance and only the photo reminds you that he was a part of that memory...
I agree with hill L7 reads superfluous (and as hill said, toss it once you've read me if you judge otherwise), I believe you added it to have two seven line stanzas. But even without perfect symmetry your poem has enough rhythmicity and matter for thought to do without the line. The S2 makes one pensive anyway. I like the sound of its introductory lines:

"I remember the morning walk -
cicada’s rasp in constant counterpoint"


I love this poem very very much. Thanks - Bar

[Hawkman]

Thank you all for your comments, but I’m not going to let on whether the young man is me or not. It’s much more fun to let the reader wonder.

The contentious line stays though I’m afraid. I consider it perfectly valid in context as part of description of the subject. However, I am changing the punctuation and precise wording, which make it look like an add-on to make up the numbers. (It wasn’t, by the way, it occurred naturally where it is as I wrote the poem.)

So Hill, Prince and Bar, thanks again and I’m glad you all liked it…

H

[blank|verse]

Yeah, it's a nicely achieved piece, Hawkman; a slightly different style for you, but enjoyably so.

The poem reads very well and there is a good steady rhythm throughout.

I suppose with the contentious line 7, it's a classic case of 'telling not showing'; I can see why you want to include it and think it's valid and adds to the character, so I think you're right not to remove it, but it is a bit direct as it stands. You could 'show' us his facial expression, rather than or in addition to his clothes, where he's sitting, etc.

I wasn't so sure about line 1, it's a bit like a 'framing device' in a novel or film and gives away the ending a bit too much; or the need to say the young man is 'in the photograph' when the title is 'Old Photo'; as you said, it's good to 'let the reader wonder' and I think that can be applied in this case as well.

And I'd be tempted to put a full stop after 'dusty road' in line 12; it just holds up the reader before the final thought.

But it's a nice, thoughtful poem and I'm sure the theme is one many people can relate to. I hope you write more like this in future.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I wasn't so sure about line 1, it's a bit like a 'framing device' in a novel or film and gives away the ending a bit too much; or the need to say the young man is 'in the photograph' when the title is 'Old Photo'; as you said, it's good to 'let the reader wonder' and I think that can be applied in this case as well.

If you tend as I did to conclude that the young man in the photo is the author himself a number of years ago, then that first line is the first clue - or in retrospect justifies that reading: one might easily imagine there's a wistfulness in that line, an echo of Where are the snows of yesteryear? all of which is reasserted in




the young man though,
I don’t remember him at all.

otherwise (to support my reading) why the wondering, the possible regret or even the self-reproach of those last lines?

[Jesterhead]

I like this, it has nice imagery and was read easily throughout the piece, well done!

[Hawkman]

Thanks B/V.

To me at least, saying someone looks pensive is showing. It's a descriptive word, although I grant that how it makes someone look might be interpreted differently by different readers. To be honest I'm more concerned with the line's placement in the stanza.

"Where is he now,
the young man in the photograph?
He looks pensive,
sitting at a table with a cold beer,
white shorts, white shirt
and sunburnt skin,
al fresco at a Cretan café."

might be better, but I've reached the stage where I just don't want to mess with it.

I think Prince has conducted a robust defence in the face of your other criticism and although I welcome your insights and thank you for them, I'm going to let it stand.

Thank you both and I'll try and rustle up something equally (if not more) pleasing soon.

Thanks Jesterhead, much appreciated.

Live and be well,

H

[Delta40]

I like the use of the word pensive. It makes me think of contained potent force yet to be unleashed and who knows in what direction. this poem is almost like an afterthough to something which happened and now, in hindisight, only the surrounds are recalled, if that makes any sense. For example, a gun is held to your throat in a shop robbery and afterward you recall vividly the way the catfood was stacked next to the dog food!

[blank|verse]

Thanks Hawkman, and yeah, I don't think there's any need to rewrite it, it's your poem after all, and as you said, a lot comes down to personal preference.

I think the syntax of the statement 'he looks pensive' is 'telling', because 'looks' is a copular verb here, so acts as an equals sign 'he = pensive', which I would say is 'telling'. But then, 'show don't tell' is only a general guide, and like anything in poetry, is to be ignored if you feel you've got a good reason to do so.

Prince - I see what you're saying, and you do lose something without it (maybe move it to the last line of the first stanza), but personally I think the final line is a good clincher, and makes the reader question everything that's been said in the poem - prompted by the change from third to first person in the second stanza - rather than having the first line as a sign-post to what's to come.

[qimissung]

I like it, too, and, for what it's worth, I like all the lines just where they are and saying just what they say; it makes me a little pensive about my own youth (personally, I think the young man in the poem is you :)).

[hack]

I don't remember the young man either,
just the yellow matter custard.
Good one Hawk

[Hawkman]

D40, Hi and thanks. It's the first time I've had a poem equated with PTSD! Awsome!! :D

B/V, I'm fascinated by this discussion vis showing and telling. In this context I am really constrained by the circumstance. I'm looking at a 23 year old Photo depicting someone frozen in time... I have absolutely no idea what the subject is thinking about so to 'show' pensiveness would surely require some sort of investigation of the thought process. I don't even know if the subject is thinking about anything at all. I am just describing an image and sketching an impression. Therefore I think that to say, 'he looks pensive' is appropriate to the context. Anyway, thanks again.

qim, Thank you too and I'm most gratified that you like it as it is. I'm still not going to say if I'm the subject or not though ;) but I'm happy to have given you something to think about...

hack, thanks, although the non sequitur leaves me a little bewildered. It's the kind of remark my eldest brother would make, You're not him are you? (I can't imaginine him in rattlesnake boots though!).

Best to all,

H

[Bar22do]

B/V, I'm fascinated by this discussion vis showing and telling. In this context I am really constrained by the circumstance. I'm looking at a 23 year old Photo depicting someone frozen in time... I have absolutely no idea what the subject is thinking about so to 'show' pensiveness would surely require some sort of investigation of the thought process. I don't even know if the subject is thinking about anything at all. I am just describing an image and sketching an impression. Therefore I think that to say, 'he looks pensive' is appropriate to the context. Anyway, thanks again.



Best to all,

H

but you've just said it... :smilewinkgrin:

[qimissung]

If we're going to continue this discussion, the idea of showing not telling is a guideline only, and in this instance whatever it is the author is doing is perfectly suited to his description of an old photograph.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I wasn't so sure about line 1, it's a bit like a 'framing device' in a novel or film...

E.g., at the risk of over-inflating my case, as the madeleine is a framing device in Proust's Remembrance of Things Past? Or the dying Kane's hoarse, longing whisper of "Rosebud..."

In a sense, "Where is he now?" is to me the whole of the poem in a nutshell, the first crumb as it were in the trail left by Hansel & Gretel, that would hopefully lead one to where they are now. Because, contrary to the New Age bromide to live in the "here and now" we are often, perhaps always, between some here and there, now and then...

[Hawkman]

but you've just said it... :smilewinkgrin:


Yes sweetie, but to have put all that in my little poem would have spoilt it :D

Maybe he is and maybe he isn't, but we'll never know! X


If we're going to continue this discussion, the idea of showing not telling is a guideline only, and in this instance whatever it is the author is doing is perfectly suited to his description of an old photograph.

Thanks qim, but Bar is just pulling my leg...


E.g., at the risk of over-inflating my case, as the madeleine is a framing device in Proust's Remembrance of Things Past? Or the dying Kane's hoarse, longing whisper of "Rosebud..."

In a sense, "Where is he now?" is to me the whole of the poem in a nutshell, the first crumb as it were in the trail left by Hansel & Gretel, that would hopefully lead one to where they are now. Because, contrary to the New Age bromide to live in the "here and now" we are often, perhaps always, between some here and there, now and then...

My Prince, your precept is of course entirely valid, I personally make a point of living in the past. It may be another country, but at least I can keep up with the rules :D

live long and prosper. H

[blank|verse]

Hawkman -

I don't even know if the subject is thinking about anything at all.
Fair point - but then, how can you describe him as 'pensive'? How do you know this? There must be some subconscious 'clues' about his body language and/or facial expression - and not his thought process - which lead you to this conclusion. The idea behind 'showing' is that you present before the reader these 'clues' as they are before your eyes in the photo and let the reader decide. As you say yourself:

I am just describing an image and sketching an impression.
The skill of the writing comes in leading the reader to form an accurate impression of the man as you see him. 'Telling' is not trying to persuade the reader and letting them decide but saying to them straight, eg. 'he looks pensive'. You've made the reader's mind up for them, in other words.

This is my bit of tinkering to try to show the difference (and while it might not be the best example of 'pensiveness' I hope you get the general idea; I also couldn't resist a bit of realignment - apologies :)):

Al fresco at a Cretan café
a young man sits at a table with a cold beer,
white shorts, white shirt
and sunburnt skin,
looking straight through the camera
that looks straight at him.
Where is he now?

Prince - as I said, it's a matter of personal preference, because to me

In a sense, "Where is he now?" is to me the whole of the poem in a nutshell,
is the weakness of the line, not its strength.

[_Shannon_]

I don't know how edited it's been now when I'm getting to it---but I like this very much!

I do wish the first line wasn't there, though. I just don't think it needs to be there and it feels like you don't trust your poem enough to get the reader to ask that question....

I agree with b|v about the full stop. When I read it that way, it really draws out the last two lines.

[hack]

I don't remember the young man either,
just the yellow matter custard.
Good one Hawk

Sorry for being oblique.
I meant to say that I don't
remember the boy that first heard
I Am the Walrus.
The dead dog reference took me there.
The boy was me, as I suppose you might expect.
I do remember the song though.
...peace...

[Hawkman]

Hi B/V and thanks for elaborating. I see what you are getting at. However, I feel that your solution does not convey any real information about the subject. You are of course at a disadvantage as you have not seen the photo, consequently your description isn’t quite accurate. The photo isn’t of one individual. There is a lose group of five and it isn’t posed, just a snapshot but the subject is in the centre foreground. I wouldn’t say that anyone is looking ‘through’ the camera.

I can hear you asking, ‘why not describe the photograph?’ The answer is because the poem is not about the photograph; it’s about the young man in the foreground. When I say he looks pensive it is just a nebulous first impression. The longer I stare at it the more possible interpretations I can assign: bored, tired even pissed off. Maybe it’s because of this I describe him as pensive. His mind is definitely elsewhere. To have written all of that would just have taken too much space.

Having given sufficient time to ponder on the first stanza my preferred version is as I posted it in a previous reply:

“Where is he now,
the young man in the photograph?
He looks pensive,
sitting at a table with a cold beer,
white shorts, white shirt
and sunburnt skin,
al fresco at a Cretan café.”

You claimed initially that the title made the reference to the photograph superfluous. Yes I can see what you mean here but I would rather change the title than the line. I notice that you have retained the contentious question in your version, just moved it. Personally I don’t think it works where it is. You say it is a framing device, well yes it is and I don’t apologise for it, although I accept it may not be to everyone’s taste. As a framing device though, it needs to be at the beginning. Personally I don’t consider it a weakness :)

I’ve really enjoyed this discussion.

Hi Shannon,

I’m glad you like it, and it hasn’t been edited that much. The lonely alteration was in changing a period to a comma after café and ‘he looks’ to ‘looking’ before pensive.

You can see my preferred version of the stanza above. As for the first line, well, that has already been discussed at length so I guess we’ll just have to agree to differ.

The full stop though, hmm. Not sure about that. I thought that the – was sufficient. I really didn’t want it to be a separate sentence. To do so divorces the final thought from the preceding one. It is, after all, a continuation of the same thought.

Hi hack,

Ah, The Beatles, I guess you must be my other brother then… ku koo ka choo.

Sorry I didn’t get the reference. I know the song, of course but couldn’t recite all the lyrics, so this one escaped me. Actually I’m kina disappointed it’s no longer a non sequitur, Yellow matter custard sounds delicious.

Thank you all for your comments and for engaging in the memory fest.

Live and be well, H