Classical Listening [Archive] - Page 6 - Literature Network Forums

MorpheusSandman

12-13-2012, 03:07 AM

Klemperer is a great "old school" approach to Brahms... Gardiner takes a historically-informed approach...I am aware of the divide between HIP vs. modern approaches, but unlike many I'm not dogmatic about either, but rather base my preferences on a case-by-case basis. I love Gardiner as a conductor, especially with the classical and pre-classical era, but when it comes to the Romantics I tend to prefer the modern approaches of the Klemperers, Karajans, Bohms, etc. Klemperer, even more than Karajan, I think, nails my own perception of what Brahms' symphonies are; of course, everyone is entitled to their conductors who nail their own vision.

The essential recording of Chopin's nocturnes is that of Rubinstein by which all others are measured. I definitely plan to. I tend to start listening to composers through complete collections and then base my future purchases on the works that most strike my fancy.

I really don't understand what the 'notorious density' of Brahms is. I have never heard reference made to it before and I don't personally find his orchestral work dense. Yes, there is a lot going on but its all thematically and logically interwoven. If you want to hear what over scoring really sounds like try listening to much of Delius.I think the fact that there's a lot going on is why they're considered dense. Brahms was an extremely intellectual composer, so of course everything is thematically and logically interwoven, but that doesn't make it any less dense. Beethoven's Gross Fugue is logically interwoven, but still dense as all hell.

Emil Miller

12-14-2012, 03:07 PM

This is an amazing performance in which Toscanini brings his immense authority to give the piece classic status. Although the sound doesn't match that of Karajan's, I can hear things here that I don't on the 1976 Deutsche Gramaphon recording. The battle scene is truly terrific and Toscanini takes no prisoners.

http://youtu.be/Yf4bnU-D_Tw

stlukesguild

12-15-2012, 02:28 AM

Emil Miller- I really don't understand what the 'notorious density' of Brahms is. I have never heard reference made to it before and I don't personally find his orchestral work dense. Yes, there is a lot going on but its all thematically and logically interwoven. If you want to hear what over scoring really sounds like try listening to much of Delius.

MorpheusSandman-I think the fact that there's a lot going on is why they're considered dense. Brahms was an extremely intellectual composer, so of course everything is thematically and logically interwoven, but that doesn't make it any less dense. Beethoven's Gross Fugue is logically interwoven, but still dense as all hell.

Emil... I think that Morpheus has hit upon what I mean by "density". I am not speaking of lushness of orchestration... which is nothing in comparison to Ravel, Rimsky-Korsakov, Wagner, Richard Strauss, or even, as you note, Delius. Bach can also be incredibly dense... although the Baroque formal structures may make the complex underlying forms quite a bit more clear than with Brahms. Still, if one compares Bach to Vivaldi or Handel or Alessandro Scarlatti is is clear that Johann Sebastian is far more complex... knotty... dense while the other composers are lighter... more transparent. Obviously, as I acknowledge Bach as the greatest composer ever, I am not making a negative value judgment when I speak of a composer as being more "dense".

I participate on several classical music forums, and with a number of classical music lovers IRL... and I have repeatedly come upon those who find themselves stumped... or even put off by Brahms' symphonic works... much in the same manner as they are put off by Bruckner and Schumann. Many of these same individuals love Wagner and Mahler... and I suspect there is something more open... airy... transparent... even lyrical to their work. It may also have something to do with the very formal classical structure of composers like Brahms and Schumann vs the more open-ended compositions of Wagner and Mahler. The same individuals who have expressed a dislike of Brahms' and Schumann's symphonic works repeatedly express the highest admiration for their chamber works... and one suspects that the complexity of form becomes clearer with fewer instruments. Something similar occurs with the HIP approach to Brahms' symphonic works... as with the recordings by Gardiner. This is not to say that I imagine Gardiner as the last word on Brahms. I personally found that after hearing Gardiner's interpretations I was relate better to performances by Karajan, Bohm, Walter, etc...

Personally, I have no bias for or against HIP recordings. I prefer Bach played by Gould, Hewitt, Perahia, and Schiff... all on piano as opposed to harpsichord. I love Bohm's and Karajan's "old school" performances of Haydn's Creation and Seasons... but I also love Gardiner, William Christies, Marc Minkowski, and other HIP practitioners. Ultimately, it comes down to the individual performance... and what it brings to the music.

*****

Death notices seem to be a recent theme. Unfortunately, I cannot ignore the latest great loss to the classical music world:

Lisa della Casa (2 February 1919 – 11* December 2012)

http://www.iletisimhaberajansi.com/haber_resimleri/lisa_della_casa_hayatini_kaybetti_37687_510_310.jp g

Lisa della Casa was a Swiss soprano most admired for her interpretations of major heroines in major operas by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Richard Strauss, of German lieder, and for her great beauty. She was dubbed “the most beautiful woman on the operatic stage”. Della Casa sang the part of Zdenka in the performance of Richard Strauss's Arabella at Zurich Municipal Opera House at the Salzburg Festival in 1947, in a performance starring Maria Reining and Hans Hotter. After the premiere, Richard Strauss himself commented, "The little Della Casa will one day be Arabella!" Indeed, Arabella became della Casa's defining role. She made the first commercial recording of Richard Strauss's Four Last Songs (Karl Böhm) in 1953 for Decca, and many classical music lovers claim this recording to be the greatest available. It has been suggested that Strauss may have composed these songs with della Casa's voice in mind. The singer established herself repeatedly as one of the greatest performers of Strauss' music. On 26 July 1960, the newly-built Salzburg Festspielhaus opened with a performance of Der Rosenkavalier under Herbert von Karajan. She sang the part of the Marschallin in this performance with Sena Jurinac as Octavian and Hilde Gueden as Sophie. Originally, Karajan and film director Paul Czinner planned to make a film of the performance, they asked Della Casa to sing the part of the Marschallin in the film too and she gladly accepted. But due to Walter Legge, well-known recording producer of EMI and husband of Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Della Casa was replaced by Schwarzkopf for the film. Shocked with being betrayed by this last-minute decision, although she sang the scheduled performances of the season (the Marschallin and Countess Almaviva in The Marriage of Figaro, Della Casa decided never to sing there again. When asked several times subsequently to do so, she declined, replying: "No, sir, for me, Salzburg is dead." The singer was also particularly admired for her performances of Mozart and Johann Strauss.

I only came upon Della Casa's work over the last two years... and immediately found her performances as beautiful and aristocratic as she herself was. Among her "essential" recordings, I would include:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gwmURi94L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415XiKZg1xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tGpqh2jNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oN8x7nZRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cUaggZXML._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wjTZmm9DL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VTsvN2vrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGeCjq3uYX0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/dec/11/lisa-della-casa

(* There seems to be some confusion as to whether della Casa dies on December 10 or 11)

MorpheusSandman

12-16-2012, 03:19 AM

...I acknowledge Bach as the greatest composer ever...For whatever reason, Bach has never really gelled with me, even though I continue to listen to him with somewhat frequency. I keep thinking it will eventually click, but of all the greats he certainly leaves me the coldest. I much prefer Handel, Vivaldi, and Purcell, even while acknowledging they are certainly much less intellectually complex and demanding.

I have repeatedly come upon those who find themselves stumped... or even put off by Brahms' symphonic works... much in the same manner as they are put off by Bruckner and Schumann. Many of these same individuals love Wagner and Mahler... and I suspect there is something more open... airy... transparent... even lyrical to their work. It may also have something to do with the very formal classical structure of composers like Brahms and Schumann vs the more open-ended compositions of Wagner and Mahler.I think that's a good analysis. Schumann and Brahms both certainly took very intellectually acute approaches to the classical forms, so unless a listener is inclined to listening to that kind of language, it can sound difficult and severe. Schumann was a bit more experimental than Brahms, though, especially in his solo piano works and some of his chamber music.

Lisa della Casa (2 February 1919 – 11* December 2012)Shame. I have her Mozart recordings and they are wonderful.

stlukesguild

12-25-2012, 11:03 PM

Since my answers to this question would include mostly classical music I thought I'd cross post this question here:

I have long thought of Christmas and the holidays in general as accompanied by a musical soundtrack. What music are you listening to for the holidays?

For me Bach has always been intimately linked with Christmas. My first real exposure to classical music took place in the Lutheran Church I attended as a child. My mother sang in the church choir (soprano) and as a result I developed a love for Bach and choral music in general. Today I listened to Monica Groop's marvelous performance of Bach's alto cantatas... some of his greatest achievements in the genre... and one of my favorite recordings:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NhVe5lgbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

right now... I am listening to the joyful Christmas Oratorio performed by Philippe Herreweghe:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TAW6lKzwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

And you?

MorpheusSandman

12-26-2012, 01:46 AM

I can't go a Christmas without listening to Handel's Messiah. This Christmas it was the Linn version conducted by John Butt. It's a much pared down version, but sung and recorded with such purity and clarity that I don't miss the sonic bombast of more classic interpretations. Susan Hamilton is quickly becoming one of my favorite sopranos, as well. Besides that I have various compilations of traditional Christmas songs/music by classical performers. One of my favorites is Christmas at Carnegie Hall (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000027WV/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=) with Kathleen Battle, Frederica von Stade, Wynton Marsalis, and Andre Previn.

Gladys

12-26-2012, 11:44 PM

For whatever reason, Bach has never really gelled with me, even though I continue to listen to him with somewhat frequency.

I also was brought up with Bach in a Lutheran church where father and grandfather played pipe organ and conducted the choir. Classical musical was played occasionally at home but playing a Reader's Digest record set of classical symphonies converted me to Classical, late in high school. All except Bach.

Only a decade later, hearing by chance a Bach cantata (they're all fabulous) did the penny drop. For me the difficulty with Bach lay in his using the outdated polyphonic style of his predecessors (Heinrich Schutz, for instance). Once I began to consciously separate the two or more, simultaneous strains of melody, Bach's music suddenly made sense. Other baroque music tends to be less polyphonic and no harder to grasp than music of the Classical and Romantic periods.

MorpheusSandman

12-27-2012, 03:33 AM

I actually LIKE polyphonic music. I'm a huge fan of Monteverdi, Byrd, Josquin, Palestrina, and the polyphonic writing of Handel and Purcell (which, admittedly, isn't as frequent or as dense as Bach's), so it's not the polyphony for me. So much of Bach just sounds mechanical to my ears; a friend of mind described it as clockwork, which is a good adjective. While I can listen and admire the complexity and compositional intelligence, I rarely feel that emotional gut-punch that I get with the others mentioned. However much talent Bach had for pure musical expression, I do feel he wasn't much of a dramatist. Monteverdi, Handel, and Purcell were very much influenced by opera, so they infused much of their polyphony with that kind of drama, and even the others showed an interest in word painting, which Bach rarely seemed interested in in his vocal music.

Anton Hermes

12-27-2012, 08:23 AM

Bach's music fascinates me, but I agree with the comments above. His appeal for me is the subtlety and intricacy of his music. It's not as exciting or dramatic as that of Monteverdi or Mozart, but I don't find it dry or academic.

ETA: Of course, I'm also a fan of Schoenberg and Babbitt, so I have a higher tolerance for cerebral music than many folks. YMMV.

Charles Darnay

12-27-2012, 10:02 AM

I think Bach's partitas and cello concertos are more than "clockwork" - but I do see where you get the idea.

stlukesguild

12-27-2012, 03:38 PM

Bach's music can indeed be quite complex... almost mathematical in terms of structure... but is can also be quite delicate... and emotional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS-HWIFyLsE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fCDV4Mw8W8

stlukesguild

12-27-2012, 04:06 PM

However much talent Bach had for pure musical expression, I do feel he wasn't much of a dramatist. Monteverdi, Handel, and Purcell were very much influenced by opera, so they infused much of their polyphony with that kind of drama, and even the others showed an interest in word painting, which Bach rarely seemed interested in in his vocal music.

I agree with this. Listening to Handel's oratorios I am struck at just how dramatic... theatrical... operatic they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HefO1_W4M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0cPhSYRss

Bach... in contrast... can be far more dense... but he also can be far more intimate. I recently attended a performance of the complete St. Matthew Passion at Oberlin College. This work is generally acknowledged as one of the pinnacles of not only Bach's oeuvre but also of the whole of choral music. yet what struck me is just how reserved Bach was with regard to his use of the entire orchestral/vocal forces. There are but a few movements in which he pulled out all the stops and gave us the whole orchestra and chorus. For most of the work, we are presented with something akin to chamber music: small ensembles of singers and instruments in an endless array or variety. This is true of much of his choral works. Undoubtedly, this was owed to the composer working with the talents he had at hand in the small town church orchestra and choir. When he had a particularly talented alto vocalist on hand... he wrote music that made the best use of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCSj0fu4sHs

at another time... in another movement... he might employ a combination of soprano, bass and violin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDZED15I8eU

Oddly enough, while my preferences lean toward the symphonic and operatic, Bach remains my absolute favorite composer.

Charles Darnay

12-28-2012, 10:17 AM

Because it came up recently, I've been listening to Monteverdi's settimo libro di madrigall: forgot how good it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79nKpA71ryc

(not the best recording, but....)

Onirem2000

01-02-2013, 03:30 AM

I have trouble reading english but I can assure you Bach and his son Carl are by far the best. Take my word for it. I'm sorry I didn't read all that everyone said I was say window shopping.

Gilliatt Gurgle

01-27-2013, 05:04 PM

.
Happy Birthday Mozart
The mention of your name brings back so many fond memories from a couple years ago.

Hilary Hahn & Natalie Zhu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xPIyePmNk

Kyrie Eleison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL-ttyIhSYk

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/th_1820820-R02-040-1.jpg (http://s963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Europe%201988%20through%20a%20Pentax%20ME%20Super/Europe%201988%20digital%20conversion%20from%20slid es/?action=view&current=1820820-R02-040-1.jpg)

MorpheusSandman

01-27-2013, 07:10 PM

Happy Birthday MozartHa! I was just about to bump this thread by saying this as well! Anyway, allow me to echo the sentiments: Happy Birthday to, IMHO, the greatest composer that ever lived. I only wish we would've been privileged to hear another 20 years or so of his genius. Mozart turned me on to classical music back in my early teens, and he remains the composer I still come back to the most after all these years. There are so many gems in his oeuvre--many of which are under-appreciated to this day--that it's difficult to tire of his work. A good example is his String Trio K. 563 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc4NOPfRxLQ&list=PL9C0C061D1E1A3C6C&index=1), which is still probably the finest trio of any type I've ever heard.

stlukesguild

01-27-2013, 09:56 PM

Happy Birthday to, IMHO, the greatest composer that ever lived.

I share your sentiments in wishing Wolfgang a Happy Birthday (although, sadly I must demote him to the rank of second greatest composer ever, J.S. Bach firmly standing above all:smilewinkgrin:) I agree that there are so many gems by Mozart that are not well enough known... or heard. One of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLdTf2JjrYI

Mozart's operas are the pinnacle of his oeuvre... and among the finest works ever produced within the genre. Over the past year a body of work that I have been rediscovering is his collected concert arias. These brilliant works virtually add up to another one... if not two operas worth of marvelous operatic arias:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsts8BK1lVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i7HbAYVbLM

MorpheusSandman

01-28-2013, 03:34 PM

^ I love that quintet as well. I've already expressed my opinions for Bach earlier in this thread, so I won't retread that ground. As for the pinnacles of Mozart's oevure, I put his concertos and operas about equal. I don't think any composer dominated the concerto genre like Mozart did. His Piano concertos, especially, are one of the towering cycles in music history, and most all of his other concertos are amongst the absolute best for their respective instruments. On the other hand, there are at least 2 (many would argue more) composers whose operas are as great as Mozart's: Wagner and Verdi. I personally prefer Mozart's best to their best, but that's just taste. I think it would be difficult for anyone to argue another composer was equal to Mozart as a composer of concertos.

As for really unknown but great Mozart, how about the Adagio for Glass Harmonica? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE_MZzvigd4

stlukesguild

01-28-2013, 08:28 PM

I quite agree with regard to Mozart's piano concertos. I don't think anyone equals or surpasses Mozart in this realm. There might be individual piano sonatas that equal or (gasp!) surpass Mozart's finest (Off hand I think of Beethoven's Emperor) but no one rivals the whole of Mozart's oeuvre. Mozart did for the piano concerto what Beethoven did for the piano sonata, Haydn did for the symphony and string quartet, and Schubert did for lieder.

I will agree that there are several operatic composers who deserve to stand shoulder to shoulder with Mozart... or close to that: Wagner, Handel, Richard Strauss, and Verdi primary among them (and I might add Benjamin Britten). Still... if I were to make a list of the 25 greatest operas (or my favorites... whatever the case may be) Mozart would be the composer most represented:

1. Wagner- Tristan und Isolde
2. Mozart- Die Zauberflöte
3. Mozart- Le Nozze di Figaro
4. Mozart- Don Giovanni
5. Verdi- La Traviata
6. Wagner- Parsifal
7. Richard Strauss- Salome
8. Wagner- Die Walkure
9. Puccini- La Boheme
10. Richard Strauss- Der Rosenkavalier
11. Bizet- Carmen
12. Berlioz- Les Troyens
13. Donizetti- Lucia di Lammermoor
14. Tchaikovsky- Eugene Onegin
15. Rossini- The Barber of Seville
16. Humperdinck- Hansel and Gretel
17. Verdi- Aida
18. Handel- Giulio Cesare
19. Monteverdi- L'Orfeo
20. Gluck- Orfeo ed Euridice
21. Bellini- I Capuleti e i Montecchi
22. Wagner- Götterdämmerung
23. Mozart- Cosi fan tutte
24. Puccini- Madame Butterfly
25. Rameau- Les Indes gallantes

Although the whole order might change tomorrow, Mozart's "Big Four" would remain firmly entrenched.

MorpheusSandman

01-29-2013, 01:47 PM

I would agree there are concertos that equal Mozart's best, but I don't believe any clearly surpass them. Off the top of my head, if I was to do a quick Top 20 list it would be:

1. Mozart's 24th
2. Mozart's 23rd
3. Schumann's
4. Brahms' 2nd
5. Beethoven's 4th
6. Mozart's 20th
7. Mozart's 21st
8. Liszt's 1st
9. Brahms' 1st
10. Bartok's 3rd
11. Mozart's 22nd
12. Chopin's 2nd
13. Bartok's 2nd
14. Tchaikovsky's 1st
15. Mozart's 25th
16. Liszt's 2nd
17. Mozart's 19th
18. Grieg's
19. Mozart's 17th
20. Chopin's 1st

I have never been enamored with Beethoven's piano concertos beyond his 4th, which I still feel is his best--certainly his most lyrical. His 5th has always sounded a bit strained to me, like he was really trying to push the piano beyond what it was capable of at the time. It's definitely forward looking, but I think it ends up in that no-man's land of not being quite classical or romantic.

As for operas, I'm a bit surprised you put Handel on that list. I know his operas are beloved amongst other Handelians, but amidst more classical fans of opera they seem to get rather little attention. Most feel Handel's best work was saved for his English oratorios, and while I feel that's true to some extent, there's definitely some wonderful moments in his operas. As for my own list:

1. Don Giovanni
2. Parsifal
3. Cosi fan tutte
4. Carmen
5. Les Troyens
6. Duke Bluebeard's Castle
7. Aida
8. Boris Godunov
9. Barber of Seville
10. Otello
11. Falstaff
12. Le Nozze di Figaro
13. The Rake's Progress
14. Die Meistersinger
15. Dido & Aeneas
16. Elektra
17. La Forza Del Destino
18. The Magic Flute
19. Pelleas and Mellisande
20. Norma
21. Ariodante
22. La Traviata
23. Der Rosenkavalier
24. Idomeneo
25. Tristan Und Isolde

As you said, much of this list could change radically tomorrow. I've never really bothered to rank them before, but my top 5 is pretty secure.

Charles Darnay

01-29-2013, 02:51 PM

No Baroque on your concerto list? As much as I love Mozart and the Romantics, I think that Back and Vivaldi produced some of the most pleasing concertos. Although, as a clarinet player, Mozart's Clarinet Concerto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oNnugi3yLU) tops my list.

Charles Darnay

01-29-2013, 02:57 PM

MorpheusSandman

01-29-2013, 03:42 PM

No Baroque on your concerto list?I was rating piano concertos only. Some might include some Baroque harpsichord concertos under the more general heading of "keyboard concertos," but I wasn't considering them. Obviously if we're talking any concertos then the list would be quite different, and Mozart's Clarinet Concerto would be in my top 5. Handel's Op. 6 Concerti Grossi is also amongst my favorite instrumental music ever.

Charles Darnay

01-29-2013, 05:49 PM

ah, I missed the piano part (though I should have picked up on that).

stlukesguild

01-29-2013, 05:52 PM

I think the reason that many place later (Romantic/Post-Romantic piano concertos above any single works by Mozart is due to the fact that they took the form further and brought a greater complexity and grandeur to the the genre. I don't fully accept this. I feel there are symphonies and quartets by Haydn (and Mozart) that are every bit as brilliant as the "bigger" works by Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, etc...

A list of my favorite 20 (+/-) piano concertos would be a real challenge.

1. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 20 (Ever since Amadeus this concerto has been my favorite... especially the bittersweet... yet almost child-like Romanze):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHKJeoXdNM

2. Tchaikovsky- Piano Concerto no. 1 (I suspect that some of my favorites owe as much to the performance as to the composer... that is certainly true of the unrivaled Van Cliburn/Kondrashin recording). Then again... Tchaikovsky's concerto most certainly must have the most brilliant opening of any piano concerto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Xy_QXSskw

3. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 5 ("The Emperor")- I love the 4th as well... especially as performed by Emil Gilels, but the 5th is heartbreaking when one recognizes what Beethoven might have gone on to do in the genre had he not lost his hearing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYl6iI4l9gA

4. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 21 ("Elvira Madigan")- Mozart almost invents Romanticism with the Andante:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-eLzao63I

5. Maurice Ravel Piano Concerto in G Major- If Ravel had composed nothing else than this one concerto, his place in music would have been assured:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBm8vJPfKc

6. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto 27- Another one of Mozart's works with moments that are not of this earth... or that rather, as JCamilo suggested of Michelangelo... that justify humanity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbsSJ0R3lJQ

7. J.S. Bach Keyboard Concerto BWV 1052- While originally scored for harpsichord, Bach essentially invented the keyboard concerto... and BWV 1052 is brilliant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MuioQ-zaKo

8. Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no. 2- Another other-worldly moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAK2J05Vmhc

9. Grieg Piano Concerto in A-minor- After Tchaikovsky, Grieg must surely offer the most dramatic opening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO-H37t1fQQ

10. Brahms Piano Concerto no. 1- While it took me some time to dig through the density of Brahms' symphonies, I got into the piano concertos immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHSxBNxHygE

11. W.A. Mozart Piano Concerto no. 23-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMYjGkgzinU

12. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 4- Gilels!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bql1jrNm_g

13. Beethoven Piano Concerto no. 3-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSWvi7N6Gtw

14. Liszt Piano Concerto no. 1- I only really "discovered" this concerto this past summer... in spite of having owned the recording for some years. I can't believe how this combination of Richter and Kondrashin didn't grab me earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMaL-rtOeqE

15. W.A. Mozart- Piano Concerto no. 19-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSyayhVuZQc

16. Gershwin Piano Concerto in F- Gershwin's was another sad premature death. The composer was just beginning to get into the swing of composing for the whole orchestra... and he merged the American energy of Hollywood musicals and jazz with the classical realm of Ravel and Shostakovitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4vj-FYMkdc

17. Prokofiev Piano Concerto no. 3- And here's a performance for Emil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfGBmbNbMw

18. Schumann Piano Concerto in A-minor-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhR4TnV8XE

19. Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto no. 3-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOOfoW5_2iE

20. Piano Concerto no. 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge-V8PwR9hI

Of course I'll be the first to admit that this list is limited to those works that I am very well acquainted with. I was impressed with the recording of Bartok's three piano concertos by Bavouzet, but I haven't listened to them enough to seriously rank them. The same is true of Shostakovitch. And then there are a slew of other concertos by Russians and Poles... and even Americans... such as this work by Ned Rorem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrEXRVDSZU

Your choice of operas is interesting. Bluebeard's Castle would certainly be within the next 10 or so. I first heard it this past summer and was quite blown away. The same is true of Pelleas and Mellisande. I quite like what I know of Russian opera... but I must listen to it quite a bit more.

Handel? I think that Handel is no different than Monteverdi, Alessandro Scarlatti, J.C. Bach, Hasse, Rameau, Lully, Vivaldi, etc... in that he is grossly underrated outside of the realm of Baroque aficionados. Seriously, Handel was quite likely the greatest composer in Europe during his twenties and his cantatas and Italian operas are a great part of this. I suspect that in the Anglo-world his oratorios are far more popular in that they build upon the British tradition of choral music and stress the chorus over solo arias. Still... this is the work of a major operatic composer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Jd6dnEA0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7XH-58eB8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-KSJBuDC5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmzZLolnUVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyCdCyIetB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0RyyqL6KN0

For those unfamiliar with Handel the operatic composer, there is no better place to start than Bejun Mehta's great disc, Ombra Cara.

WyattGwyon

01-30-2013, 12:56 PM

Some that haven't been mentioned:

Bartok's Second is brilliant, though some find it too dense contrapuntally.
Barber's Piano Concerto is magnificent.
Schnittke's Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra should be on the list.
Prokofiev's Second I find more interesting than the Third.
Stravinsky's is great too.

C.P.E. Bach's best keyboard concertos rival those of Mozart. Wq 23 in D Minor is arguably better than nearly all of them. Unlike Mozart, whose big ones in the minor mode (C Minor and D minor) have hopelessly anticlimactic finales, Bach follows through.

MorpheusSandman

01-30-2013, 03:16 PM

I think the reason that many place later (Romantic/Post-Romantic piano concertos above any single works by Mozart is due to the fact that they took the form further and brought a greater complexity and grandeur to the the genre. I don't fully accept this. I feel there are symphonies and quartets by Haydn (and Mozart) that are every bit as brilliant as the "bigger" works by Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, etc... I'm with you in not accepting this. In fact, I really appreciate the combination of levity and profundity in much of Mozart and Haydn's work that's sadly missing in many of their successors. I've always said that I think that levity made the profound moments stand out all the more, so by the time Mozart composed something like his Requiem, it truly was "wild and terrible" as Beethoven called it. In terms of Haydn, I'd even extend this beyond the symphonies and quartets to the piano trios and sonatas, both of which are still sadly underrated. Haydn's mature sonatas were as much ahead of their time as his mature work in the other genres, and his trios, while perhaps not as deep, contain some of the best music to come out of the classical period.

A list of my favorite 20 (+/-) piano concertos would be a real challenge. I'm surprised not to see Mozart's 24th on there. I always considered that to be the perfect combination of the drama of the 20th, the lyricism of the 21st, and the poignancy of the 23rd. I've never been quite able to get into Tchaikovsky, as I tend to find him more show than substance too much of the time. I completely forgot about Ravel... he'd probably be in my revised top 15. Do give Bartok's concertos some more listens as I find them to be the finest PCs of the 20th century (though I'm an unabashed Bartok fan, in general).

Your choice of operas is interesting. Bluebeard's Castle would certainly be within the next 10 or so. I first heard it this past summer and was quite blown away. The same is true of Pelleas and Mellisande. I quite like what I know of Russian opera... but I must listen to it quite a bit more. Both get better with repeat listens. Someone on another board once asked if there were any horror operas, and I said the only one I know of Bluebeard's Castle, which isn't ostensibly horror, yet is still strangely terrifying. It really needs Hungarian singers, though, to get the poetry of the text right. The famous Kurtesz has better singers, but overall I prefer the Ivan Fisher version, with its superior sonics and native Hungarian cast. Pelleas is similar to Bluebeard in that, in both, atmosphere is just as important as having the best singers and right conductor, and a lot of atmosphere comes down to sound, which is probably why I love the Boulez recording, even though it doesn't have the starriest cast.

Handel? I think that Handel is no different than Monteverdi, Alessandro Scarlatti, J.C. Bach, Hasse, Rameau, Lully, Vivaldi, etc... in that he is grossly underrated outside of the realm of Baroque aficionados.Handel is my third favorite composer behind Mozart and Beethoven. Back in '09 on the 250th Anniversary of his death, Presto Classical had a huge sale on Handel recordings and I went nuts and bout about $1000 worth. Needless to say, I had a remarkably fun time going through them over the next several months. One thing I quickly learned is that Handel was incapable of composing bad or boring music, and even his work from his early 20s (as you note) are of an extraordinary high quality. I fell in love with Glossa's series of his Italian Cantatas, and it's evident even there that he had an unmatched ability for theatrical composition, especially in how he scores for his various characters. Clori, Tirsi, et Fileno is a perfect example of this, where the capricious Clori is given equally capricious, seductive music; the fiery Tirsi is given the most melodramatic numbers; and the more meditative, reflective Fileno is given the most understated numbers. He clearly used his cantatas as a workshop for his ideas about musical drama, which paid off time and again in his operas and oratorios.

About the only knock against Handel's operas is that they're so consistently good, it's hard to pick that one (or those few) standouts to place amongst the best operas ever. Most critics agree on Mozart's "big four" operas, or the 5-6 best from Wagner and Verdi, but I suspect if you asked Handelians their favorite Handel opera, you'd get a lot of different answers. Giulio Cesare is probably his most well-known and beloved outside Handelians, yet I think there are a few that are even better--certainly every bit its equal. Ariodante and Alcina, eg; both of which have been served by some amazing recordings. Also, while it's not quite opera, his Acis & Galateo is one of the few musical dramas of any kind where I've memorized every aria. Perhaps not a profound work, but catchier than anything you hear on pop radio today.

So, yeah, you'll get no argument from me against Handel as an opera composer, or composer of any kind. :)

Emil Miller

01-30-2013, 04:22 PM

Interesting take on piano concertos St Lukes. I was listening to Ashkenazy in an interview on BBC radio recently and he made a similar point in that before the invention of the Forte piano, Bach, Haydn and Mozart's music was very contained and there are almost no big chords or huge technical problems in it. Piano music only began to come into its own with Beethoven, Schubert and Schumann and even here the piano was constrained by fewer octaves than that of the present day concert grand. One wonders what the old masters would have done had they had such an extended instrument at their disposal.
Thank you for the Yuja Wang Prokofiev although I prefer his 1st piano concerto to his others. The item you have given for Rachmaninov No.2 is in fact Chopin's second concerto and although the Ravel is a contender for the greatest piano concerto of the 20th century, the definitive performance is, by general consent, that of Michelangeli.
We have spoken of the Tchaikovsky/Van Cliburn performance before and it remains unbeaten to this day.
Over the last couple of days I have been listening to Youtube performances of the Brahms No.1, which has long been a favourite of mine, and one of the best, believe it or not, is by Glen Gould and the Winnipeg Symphony orchestra.
Brahms bestrides the post Beethoven symphonic scene like a colossus and epitomises Germany for me. Helene Grimaud gives a marvellous performance of the first concerto in the acoustically stunning Baden Baden Festhalle and it's noticeable that Yuja Wang has yet to attempt grappling with the profundity of either of the Brahms concertos despite an already extensive repertoire.
Of the others, I would say that Richter's Liszt No.1 is as perfect as I have heard, but for unbelievably dynamic playing, there is a Youtube video of a performance made for Chinese television by Yuja Wang that I doubt even the composer could have bettered.
I really like the Gershwin even though it is a bit superficial and flashy and I imagine that Ms Wang will attempt it at some time if only because of its flashiness: a quality that she sees in Rachmaninov's Paganini variations.
The Rach 3 is such a staple of the repertoire that it's almost impossible to choose a favourite but Ashkenazy with Constantine Silvestri would be my personal choice.
As for Beethoven, I agree that 3, 4, and 5 are probably the best among his concertos but, once again, people are spoilt for choice with numerous performances in the catalogue.
Greig and Schumann epitomise the romantic concerto although Grieg has been out of favour for some while, but your choice of Pollini for the Schumann is probably as good as it gets.

MorpheusSandman

01-30-2013, 07:12 PM

Speaking of the fortepiano's invention, I have a set of selected Haydn piano trios on Warner that discusses how his work straddled the transition from the harpsichord to the fortepiano, and how you can tell this by how his writing for the instrument changed. The set is interesting in that the early works are recorded with a harpsichord and the later with a period fortepiano, and there is a marked difference in the writing. I don't know if I would say that piano music "came into its own" with Beethoven and Schubert, since I find that there's very little lacking in Mozart's piano concertos compared to later efforts, and even many of Haydn's late sonatas stand up well to their romantic counterparts (though I know I'm in the minority with that opinion).

I'm often curious as to the apparent split over the popularity of Brahms' two PCs amongst listeners and performers. Performers seem to uniformly prefer the 2nd, since it's more intricate, while most listeners prefer the 1st. I started out preferring the 1st, but over time I find myself revisiting the 2nd more. It lacks the overt drama of the 2nd, but I also think it has more subtle tones and shifts and seems slightly more coherent overall. As for recordings, I have a slight preference for Curzon/Szell in the 1st, and Gilels/Jochum in the 2nd, though there are quite a few fine performances of both. I haven't heard Gould, though.

I really couldn't second Pollini for Schumann, though. I love Pollini as a pianist, but I've never cared for his Schumann. My (perhaps surprising) first pick would Argerich/Harnoncourt, neither of which sound like a traditional pick for Schumann, but their version on Teldec is superb. The Lupu/Previn version is also just about as good as it gets.

stlukesguild

01-30-2013, 08:18 PM

I'm with you in not accepting this. In fact, I really appreciate the combination of levity and profundity in much of Mozart and Haydn's work that's sadly missing in many of their successors. I've always said that I think that levity made the profound moments stand out all the more...

Oh, I quite agree... but we live in a Romantic/Post-Romantic age regardless of the passing of Modernism, and the heart worn on the sleeve and gushing emotions (especially of the tragic sort) are imagined as inherently more profound than wit, humor, elegance, levity... or "beauty". From my experience on music forums, Mozart is THE composer of the "Big Three" whose achievements are most often called into question... especially by younger listeners. Beethoven is clearly a tragic individual... and Bach is unassailable because they tend to be less knowledgeable of the Baroque as a whole, and because there is no way to deny the intellectual and emotional/spiritual seriousness of the music. But poor Mozart... all that joy! He can't be taken seriously.

In terms of Haydn, I'd even extend this beyond the symphonies and quartets to the piano trios and sonatas, both of which are still sadly underrated. Haydn's mature sonatas were as much ahead of their time as his mature work in the other genres, and his trios, while perhaps not as deep, contain some of the best music to come out of the classical period.

I agree... except that I would add the masses and the two great oratorios, The Creation and The Seasons... and The Seven Last Words is also brilliant... in the original quartet form, and as a choral work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ1EjrH0U3w

Both get better with repeat listens. Someone on another board once asked if there were any horror operas, and I said the only one I know of Bluebeard's Castle, which isn't ostensibly horror, yet is still strangely terrifying. It really needs Hungarian singers, though, to get the poetry of the text right. The famous Kurtesz has better singers, but overall I prefer the Ivan Fisher version, with its superior sonics and native Hungarian cast. Pelleas is similar to Bluebeard in that, in both, atmosphere is just as important as having the best singers and right conductor, and a lot of atmosphere comes down to sound, which is probably why I love the Boulez recording, even though it doesn't have the starriest cast.

I have the classic Kertész, Ludwig, Berry recording:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61-DJeaUN6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Both the lead singers are brilliant... and being actually husband and wife brought a certain intensity to the psychological horror of the work. I was so blown away on first listen that I immediately felt the work rivaled Strauss Salome among the "horror" operas of the 20th century... and I am a sworn Straussian with multiple recordings of almost every last one of his operas.

I recently picked up Ernest Ansermet's classic old recording (1952) of Pelleas et Melisande (along with most of his recordings of Debussy, Ravel, and the late 19th/early 20th century French repertoire). I have Boulez' recording as well... but never warmed to it. Indeed I'm not overly fond of Boulez' the conductor at all (although he does some marvelous Mahler). I feel he stress the Modernist aspects of composers like Debussy and Ravel over their 19th century Impressionist/Post-Romantic elements.

I might also be biased in that I don't like Boulez the composer and Boulez the music critic was a jerk.

One thing I quickly learned is that Handel was incapable of composing bad or boring music, and even his work from his early 20s (as you note) are of an extraordinary high quality. I fell in love with Glossa's series of his Italian Cantatas...

Oh yes... I absolutely adore these. I was turned on to them my a member of a music forum who is a true Handelian. He also led me to Jordi Savall's brilliant rendering of the Water Music and Royal Fireworks which elevated these old musty warhorses into the real genius that they are.

About the only knock against Handel's operas is that they're so consistently good... it's hard to pick that one (or those few) standouts to place amongst the best operas ever. Most critics agree on Mozart's "big four" operas, or the 5-6 best from Wagner and Verdi, but I suspect if you asked Handelians their favorite Handel opera, you'd get a lot of different answers.

That's been the problem. When I first began to dig into Handel's operas I asked the Handel fanatics where to start, and there were no consistent agreed upon responses... outside of Giulio Cesare... and I suspect this is due in part to the marvelous recent production:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513OzZN3txL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Giulio Cesare is probably his most well-known and beloved outside Handelians, yet I think there are a few that are even better--certainly every bit its equal. Ariodante and Alcina, eg; both of which have been served by some amazing recordings.

Indeed!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dqL5IdgaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Er64g1mKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51k3Pxpr5UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518uxVJdauL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516GB0rrQ8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

So, yeah, you'll get no argument from me against Handel as an opera composer, or composer of any kind.

The Baroque seems to be the period currently undergoing the greatest revival. When I first began to listen to classical music there was little available by Handel (in most record stores) beyond The Messiah, Water Music, Royal Fireworks, Organ Concertos, Concerti Grossi... and maybe one or two other oratorios Saul and Solomon, probably. Bach's whole cantatas were being recorded by Helmuth Rilling and Vivaldi was almost limited exclusively to The Four Seasons and a couple other concertos. The whole of Handel's oeuvre is now available... and many of the operas have been recorded several times and by the finest performers. Now Vivaldi is enjoying a revival. His operas are coming out of the vaults, and we are discovering that they, along with his vocal works in general, are better than his concertos... often rapidly written to the limitations of his young all-girl orchestras. Philippe Jaroussky's recording of arias by Johann Christian Bach suggests a hidden wealth there... as with recent recordings of Alessandro Scarlatti and others. I rejoice in this because I am a real fan of the Baroque... but also because I began my journey through classical music with the three big Baroque composers: Bach (The Brandenburgs) Handel (a box set of the Water Music, Royal Fireworks, and Organ Concerti) and Vivaldi (The Four Seasons and the concertos for mondolin).

stlukesguild

01-30-2013, 08:34 PM

For me, no Rachmaninoff cycle matches that of Earl Wild:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tg0z%2BgwHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

... although there are brilliant recordings of individual works... including Van Cliburn's No. 2 from the same disc as the Tchaikovsky:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510jBN9NaOL._SL500_AA300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRig ht,4,-40_OU11__.jpg

I came to Brahms' concertos in the best way possible... through the classic DG recording of Emil Gilels and Jochum:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H%2BdFs829L._SL500_AA300__PJautoripBadge,BottomR ight,4,-40_OU11__.jpg

I still love this one... but I've also come around to Szell and Fleisher:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GBlA0YBfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Szell/Fleisher is also my choice for Schumann:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61yw6VbyevL._SL500_AA300__PJautoripBadge,BottomRig ht,4,-40_OU11__.jpg

Szell brought the whole of Schumann's symphonies alive for me as well by approaching them in the firm belief (which is followed through in the performances) that these works are every bit as great as the symphonies of Beethoven, Schubert, and Brahms.

MorpheusSandman

02-01-2013, 05:19 PM

From my experience on music forums, Mozart is THE composer of the "Big Three" whose achievements are most often called into question... especially by younger listeners. Yes, I've noticed this as well. Whenever I hear the complaint I just point them to the quintuple invertible fugato in the coda of the 41st. Whatever one thinks about the aesthetic substance of these works, one can't listen to that with a knowledge of what's happening and not be impressed by Mozart's compositional talent.

I have the classic Kertész, Ludwig, Berry recording: Both the lead singers are brilliant... and being actually husband and wife brought a certain intensity to the psychological horror of the work. I was so blown away on first listen that I immediately felt the work rivaled Strauss Salome among the "horror" operas of the 20th century... and I am a sworn Straussian with multiple recordings of almost every last one of his operas.Musically, that recording is nearly perfect, but there's something about that libretto that, IMO, just demands native Hungarians to read it. Interesting you mention Strauss, since I'm relatively unfamiliar with his operas outside of Elektra and Rosenkavalier. He's one of the gaps in my listening, and I need to rectify that. :)

I recently picked up Ernest Ansermet's classic old recording (1952) of Pelleas et Melisande (along with most of his recordings of Debussy, Ravel, and the late 19th/early 20th century French repertoire). I have Boulez' recording as well... but never warmed to it. Indeed I'm not overly fond of Boulez' the conductor at all (although he does some marvelous Mahler). I feel he stress the Modernist aspects of composers like Debussy and Ravel over their 19th century Impressionist/Post-Romantic elements. I'm not a fan of Boulez at at all, and unlike yourself I don't even care for his Mahler (for a more modernistic Mahler approach I vastly prefer Gielen). However, I do love his recording of Pelleas, and much of that may have to do with the superior sound quality, since I'm also an audiophile and value the bet combinations of audio and performance quality. There are some works that demand superior audio, and Pelleas is one of them.

Oh yes... I absolutely adore these. I was turned on to them my a member of a music forum who is a true Handelian. He also led me to Jordi Savall's brilliant rendering of the Water Music and Royal Fireworks which elevated these old musty warhorses into the real genius that they are.I love Savall's recordings of those pieces as well. Another of the gems in my Handel collection are the three recordings I have of his Nine German Arias, with Emma Kirkby, Arleen Auger, and Carolyn Sampson:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mXVtEQrHL._SS400_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51f7kGq2oWL._SS400_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51j3uKFLYBL._SS400_.jpg

Talk about being spoiled for great baroque singers!

Indeed!Don't forget the Arleen Auger version, which may be my overall favorite:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GBNEEPCML._SS400_.jpg

The Baroque seems to be the period currently undergoing the greatest revival. Indeed. The explosion of Handel recordings have been, especially, a wonderful surprise, especially the Oratorio series by Robert King on Hyperion and Opera series by Alan Curtis on Virgin. Vivaldi's Complete Sacred Music on Hyperion is another gem (and also the place where I first discovered the divine Carolyn Sampson). About the only composer I feel has been (somewhat) left out has been Purcell, whom has become a favorite of mine over the last couple of months. Again I have to praise King and Hyperion for recording their complete Sacred Music (as well as Odes and Secular Solo Songs), but we need more focus on his music outside of Dido & Aeneas and The Fairy Queen.

stlukesguild

02-01-2013, 10:38 PM

Musically, that recording is nearly perfect, but there's something about that libretto that, IMO, just demands native Hungarians to read it. Interesting you mention Strauss, since I'm relatively unfamiliar with his operas outside of Elektra and Rosenkavalier. He's one of the gaps in my listening, and I need to rectify that.

I'm a sworn Wagnerian and Straussian... which may be why I find Brahms the biggest composer that I struggle with. After all, he was the antithesis of Wagner. There is a certain density to his work that I find works best with his chamber works... and admittedly chamber music is the one genre I am least enamored of. I far away prefer opera, choral music, and vocal music in general followed by symphonic music, concertos, and even work for solo instrument before chamber music as a genre. Of course there are endless exception... Mozart's clarinet quintet and quintet for piano and winds and Brahms' clarinet works among these. Oddly enough, my favorite composer, J.S. Bach, is notorious for music far more dense than anything Brahms composed... and there is an element to Bach's cantatas... among my favorite works... that are far closer to chamber music in the way he groups instrumentalists and vocalists, than they are to opera or even Handel's operatic oratorios.

Returning to Strauss... I came to him through Wagner... and he was probably Wagner's greatest heir. Salome was the opera that first blew me away. How can you lose with a libretto based on the Biblical tale of Salome and John the Baptist retold by Oscar Wilde? Teresa Stratas' performance on DVD is absolutely riveting. Strauss' operatic achievements are unrivaled among 20th century composers... and a good deal of this is owed to the fact that Strauss took care to work with some of the finest librettists... unlike Puccini, for example... much as I love his operas.

Vivaldi's Complete Sacred Music on Hyperion is another gem.

I haven't picked that one up as of yet. Perhaps I found it a bit overpriced for a box set. However I do have a good amount of Vivaldi's vocal music of all genre. The Naive label is especially good with performers/conductors including Sandrine Piau, Magdalena Kozena, Marie-Nicole Lemieux, Philippe Jaroussky, Rinaldo Alessandrini, Concerto Italiano, Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante, Jordi Savall, etc...
The only negative is to be found in the cover art... which often looks like rejects from a bad fashion shoot:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41U%2B1gQ%2BytL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RzRr8LxjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zFx3EBELL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K9rlXpVTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Right now I'm listening to Bach, Bach, and more Bach... as the result of two recent box-set purchases:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510x%2BZN1ntL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

I have Helmut Walcha's early mono recordings of the organ works and any number of recordings of selected works... so I had to pick up a more contemporary recording... and went with Marie-Claire Alain highly revered second recording of the complete works. Her performance... and the sound of the organs employed... is absolutely marvelous.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/Rilling.jpg

I picked up this monster set after the price dropped to just around $40 US... just pennies per disc. I already have a good many of John Eliot Gardiner's recordings of the cantatas, as well as all of those by Philippe Herreweghe, a slew of those by Suzuki, Karl Richter, Joshua Rifkin, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, the Purcell Quartet, etc... Gardiner is my preferred choice... but Rilling recorded some of the first cantatas that I ever heard... and his performances still hold well... and for the price... well, there was really no choice.

FenwickS

02-03-2013, 03:55 PM

Gilliatt Gurgle

02-03-2013, 04:39 PM

My son mentioned the highschool orchestra is currently working on Bedřich Smetana's Má Vlast Moldau (Vltava)-City of Prague
The images in the video are amazing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdtLuyWuPDs

A visit to Prague is on my bucket list.

.

Emil Miller

02-03-2013, 04:53 PM

I'm surprised by the amount of discussion around Baroque music. I personally prefer Romantic music, I am obsessed with Chopin and simply adore his Nocturnes. I do believe there's a connection between my age (I'm in my early twenties) and my strong connection to the Romantic Era and aesthetics, I feel as though the romantic in me is at its peak and I cannot compare between the sensation of hearing one of Bach's fugues, to that of hearing a romantic serenade. I also believe that will change in time and as I grow older I will become closer to the freshness of the Baroque.

I am not surprised. There is a certain preciousness with aficionados of early music that doesn't carry conviction in the face of the obvious superior development of musical form that occurred later. It's as though the fact that post-baroque music reached an ever widening audience, it no longer became the province of a few but attracted a growing number of people to the art of music. There are few things as moving as Richard Strauss's Tod und Verklärung or as exciting as Dvorak's 7th symphony, to give only two examples of the much greater capacity of the musicians of the 19th century. Don't get me wrong; today I was playing (badly as usual) Haydn and Bach on the piano and I appreciate their obvious musicality but I can tell you that they're considerably easier to play than the piano transcription I have of the very romantic overture to Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel opera first performed in 1893.

MorpheusSandman

02-03-2013, 05:23 PM

I'm a sworn Wagnerian and Straussian... which may be why I find Brahms the biggest composer that I struggle with.The reverse is true of me, in that I've struggled (somewhat) with Wagner and Strauss after coming to the romantics through Mozart and Haydn, but found Brahms (and Schumann) a near perfect fusion of what I loved about both periods. I've yet to even dive into Wagner's Ring cycle, because I know when I do so I won't be able to do it half-way. It's somewhat of a daunting Everest.

I haven't picked that one up as of yet. Perhaps I found it a bit overpriced for a box set. However I do have a good amount of Vivaldi's vocal music of all genre. The Naive label is especially good with performers/conductors... I have several of the Naive releases as well and they are of a remarkably consistent high quality. As for the Hyperion box set, since Hyperion are imported they can be a tad on the expensive side. I tend to watch out for Amazon sellers like FabulousCD and stores like ImportCDs for their much cheaper prices. I think Fabulous CD has the Vivaldi box set for $65, which amounts to just about $6 per disc.

Lately I've been listening to this menagerie:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AnCanoPLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ox4pNuEiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T%2BZFQM3nL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Thoughts: Schumann's songs are terribly underrated. He may be the greatest lied composer outside Schubert. There are so many hidden gems throughout this 10-disc set. The general thought is that Schumann's music peaked early on and went downhill after that, but I've never found this to be true, and certainly not in his lieder where there are relatively unknown masterpieces like his Op. 90: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw6E8IUuP9Y (that link is actually taken from this set)

Purcell's instrumental music is equally strangely ignored. Both of the sonata sets are just superb from beginning to end, melting with Purcell's trademark bittersweet melodies and harmonies. The keyboard suites are almost as good. Much like Handel, I've yet to hear any bad Purcell, but this is especially music I feel I could wrap myself up in and never want to leave.

This set of Haydn's piano trios (not complete) is interesting in that it encompasses several trios performing them in different configurations, with the early works using a harpsichord and period instruments, and the later works using a more modern approach ala Beaux Arts Trio; there's even a disc that swaps the violin for a flute, purportedly because such a substitution would've been common in Hadn's day given the venue. It's a fascinating study of how elastic these trios are, and how they evolved along with Haydn and the fortepiano as an instrument. I wouldn't recommend this as a first choice, but definitely worth picking up for anyone familiar with the BAT's famous set.

MorpheusSandman

02-03-2013, 05:44 PM

I'm surprised by the amount of discussion around Baroque music. I personally prefer Romantic music, I am obsessed with Chopin and simply adore his Nocturnes. I don't think this discussion has been centered on Baroque at all, considering St. Lukes and I have been talking about Strauss, Wagner, Bartok, and Debussy in addition to Handel, Haydn, Bach, et al. I actually posted a few pages back that I was listening heavily to Chopin (I also added an "especially" in relation to his Nocturnes) and Brahms' Chamber Music. For me, I don't think I innately "prefer" any era, and just tend to play whatever I'm in the mood for. I get bored if I listen to any single composer, genre, or era too much, so I tend to switch it up frequently. So I went from Chopin/Brahms to a lot of Purcell and Handel, now I'm throwing in some Schumann and Haydn.

I am not surprised. There is a certain preciousness with aficionados of early music that doesn't carry conviction in the face of the obvious superior development of musical form that occurred later. It's as though the fact that post-baroque music reached an ever widening audience, it no longer became the province of a few but attracted a growing number of people to the art of music. There are few things as moving as Richard Strauss's Tod und Verklärung or as exciting as Dvorak's 7th symphony, to give only two examples of the much greater capacity of the musicians of the 19th century. Don't get me wrong; today I was playing (badly as usual) Haydn and Bach on the piano and I appreciate their obvious musicality but I can tell you that they're considerably easier to play than the piano transcription I have of the very romantic overture to Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel opera first performed in 1893.See above: I don't think there's been an excess of baroque/classical music discussion at all. As for most of this post, I really don't know what to make of it. There's an "obvious superior development of music form" in later music? Really? It seems to me that form began to disintegrate during Romanticism. Wagner, Liszt, et al. were looking to do away with the classic forms altogether, and their influence had practically succeeded by the time of modernism. Classic forms gave way to nonce compositions that didn't have to follow any forms. I'm not exactly against this either, since I love, eg, the hulking monstrosities that are Mahler's symphonies.

As for "post-Baroque music reaching an ever widening audience," I don't know how that's relevant or that it's even true. A composer like Purcell was a celebrity in his day, and wrote music for the theaters in which a great many of the general population attended. Handel's operas and oratorios were immensely popular as well... they weren't just composing/playing for patrons, the royal courts, and the elites. As for such pieces being "considerably easier to play," I'm not sure what that has to do with anything either, but Bach at his most difficult is not easier to play than anyone, perhaps save for Liszt at his most difficult... even then, The Goldberg Variations aren't really "easier" than a purely show-off technical piece like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X_hOY6tEvM The challenges are merely different. Haydn always wrote relatively simple piano pieces since he was never a virtuoso and had no cause to show off.

stlukesguild

02-03-2013, 11:06 PM

There is a certain preciousness with aficionados of early music that doesn't carry conviction in the face of the obvious superior development of musical form that occurred later. It's as though the fact that post-baroque music reached an ever widening audience, it no longer became the province of a few but attracted a growing number of people to the art of music. There are few things as moving as Richard Strauss's Tod und Verklärung or as exciting as Dvorak's 7th symphony, to give only two examples of the much greater capacity of the musicians of the 19th century. Don't get me wrong; today I was playing (badly as usual) Haydn and Bach on the piano and I appreciate their obvious musicality but I can tell you that they're considerably easier to play than the piano transcription I have of the very romantic overture to Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel opera first performed in 1893.

Come on, Emil. Art changes... but it does not become inherently better or worse. I might just as well speak of the obvious superiority of artistic form of 19th century literature as opposed to Shakespeare or Dante or 19th century painting as opposed to Michelangelo and Titian. I love Romanticism as much as anyone. Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Schubert, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Richard Strauss, Massenet, Berlioz, Bizet, Bruckner, Humperdinck, etc... account for a large portion of my collection of music... but in no way is the music of the Baroque... or the Classical era less moving or exciting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WLedpz9a40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zc0wTORSI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceazCccMvzI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnlaCenlNHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK1_vm0FMAU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=463jDvbw3LQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFM9WYz6J2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKvd4tMkFHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RHDwdaanQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qgg1IZWMdw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxcMZl6YwNs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCSEEvEm3uc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dmWAve3Pvk

I don't see (or rather "hear") how any of this music is something affected with "preciosity".

Gladys

02-06-2013, 06:07 AM

The general thought is that Schumann's music peaked early on and went downhill after that, but I've never found this to be true, and certainly not in his lieder where there are relatively unknown masterpieces like his Op. 90: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw6E8IUuP9Y

Thank you for this magnificent link; I keep playing it. I suspect there is much great Schumann I'm yet to discover.

Emil Miller

02-06-2013, 04:11 PM

I don't think this discussion has been centered on Baroque at all, considering St. Lukes and I have been talking about Strauss, Wagner, Bartok, and Debussy in addition to Handel, Haydn, Bach, et al. I actually posted a few pages back that I was listening heavily to Chopin (I also added an "especially" in relation to his Nocturnes) and Brahms' Chamber Music. For me, I don't think I innately "prefer" any era, and just tend to play whatever I'm in the mood for. I get bored if I listen to any single composer, genre, or era too much, so I tend to switch it up frequently. So I went from Chopin/Brahms to a lot of Purcell and Handel, now I'm throwing in some Schumann and Haydn.

See above: I don't think there's been an excess of baroque/classical music discussion at all. As for most of this post, I really don't know what to make of it. There's an "obvious superior development of music form" in later music? Really? It seems to me that form began to disintegrate during Romanticism. Wagner, Liszt, et al. were looking to do away with the classic forms altogether, and their influence had practically succeeded by the time of modernism. Classic forms gave way to nonce compositions that didn't have to follow any forms. I'm not exactly against this either, since I love, eg, the hulking monstrosities that are Mahler's symphonies.

As for "post-Baroque music reaching an ever widening audience," I don't know how that's relevant or that it's even true. A composer like Purcell was a celebrity in his day, and wrote music for the theaters in which a great many of the general population attended. Handel's operas and oratorios were immensely popular as well... they weren't just composing/playing for patrons, the royal courts, and the elites. As for such pieces being "considerably easier to play," I'm not sure what that has to do with anything either, but Bach at his most difficult is not easier to play than anyone, perhaps save for Liszt at his most difficult... even then, The Goldberg Variations aren't really "easier" than a purely show-off technical piece like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X_hOY6tEvM The challenges are merely different. Haydn always wrote relatively simple piano
pieces since he was never a virtuoso and had no cause to show off.

I do not wish to denigrate masters of the Baroque, anymore than their predecessors, but simply to point out that music, as it developed from the early 19th century, greatly enhanced its capacity for musical expression. This occurred partly as a result of social change following the 1789 and 1830 revolutions in France and the subsequent revolutions throughout Europe in 1849: leading to a growing secularisation of society and, by extension, the arts. The cantatas of JS Bach had already given way to sonata form that gradually progressed to less formally explicit compositions that did indeed lead to the 'hulking monstrosities' of Mahler's symphonies. In speaking of 'musical form', I was not referring to the use of the diatonic scale but form in its overall sense.
Similarly, I was not implying that the operas of Purcell, Handel etc. were not well supported, but merely pointing out that the aforementioned revolutions ushered in a great increase in the middle classes that increased the number of people who were not only appreciative audiences of music but through economic developments were able to buy an instrument, most usually a piano, and actually play music for themselves.

It's common knowledge that JS Bach was a devotee of counterpoint and that many of his compositions are more complex as a result, but it would be foolish to deny that something as complex as the Brahms/Paganini variations for piano could have been composed by Bach or his contemporaries, even though Brahms made a particular study of Bach's music as an aid to writing his own. Similarly, Mozart, who was the favourite composer of Richard Strauss and Tchaikovsky, would have been unable to produce anything like Ein Heldenleben or the Piano Concerto No.1 in B flat minor.

As StLuke points out, art changes and, while I agree that it doesn't mean that it does not become inherently better or worse, if music hadn't changed it would still be in the straightjacket of pre-sonata form.

stlukesguild

I don't see (or rather "hear") how any of this music is something affected with "preciosity".

This is the impression I get from people who discuss early music on BBC3 ,which is devoted largely to broadcasting concerts and discussion of serious music

MorpheusSandman

02-06-2013, 05:44 PM

Thank you for this magnificent link; I keep playing it. I suspect there is much great Schumann I'm yet to discover.You're very welcome. In case you missed parts V-VII of that cycle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7WcYY9wtv8

I can't recommend Hyperion's complete collection of his lieder enough. I've listened to it twice in the past several weeks. Besides the music, it has some of the best liner notes I've ever read; I actually teared up when Graham Johnson was describing Schumann's last days with Clara. Here's two more great cycles from his late songs:
Op. 98: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRNuosV8txM
Op. 107: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_cLiFI7Ow&list=PLx7EZN31CCI3pUAdAm6Fj6WlhBJLGL_aJ
There's also this stunning beauty: Op. 96 no. 1 "Nachtlied" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOb3YZTk7lo

I do not wish to denigrate masters of the Baroque, anymore than their predecessors, but simply to point out that music, as it developed from the early 19th century, greatly enhanced its capacity for musical expression...It greatly enhanced its capacity for musical expression and, in general, declined in its ability to masterfully use the classic forms (with few exceptions like Brahms). Counterpoint practically became a lost art, and even those that studied Bach could not match his level of sophistication in such forms. The sonata form came to dominate, and then gradually dissipated in itself, becoming practically unrecognizable. Perhaps the biggest loss in this growing concern with emotional expression through music over musical expression was choral music, and there's very little in the post-baroque period that stands up with the masterpieces of Bach, Handel, and Purcell. Yes, you can find plenty of exceptions, but they tend to be quite singular exceptions. Even Haydn and Mozart, perhaps the best practitioners of choral music after Bach, only have a handful of works that stand up favorably to his Bm Mass, Matthew's Passion, John's Passion, and the best cantatas, not to mention the great oratorios of Handel and the secular and sacred choral masterpieces of Purcell and Monteverdi. As you said about not wanting to denigrate the baroque masters, I don't want to denigrate the post-baroque masters either, but there were certainly great losses to counterbalance what was gained. It just depends on what you, personally, value most.

It's true that the middle classes gained greater access to playing and reading music themselves, but I don't think this has much to do with popularity. Theater was likely the most popular form of entertainment during the baroque period, and it gained even greater popularity when Purcell began composing music for it. There are many accounts of people going primarily for the music and only secondarily for the plays themselves. Plus, Handel's operas and oratorios were frequently huge hits that sold out wherever they played, and it certainly wasn't only the upper classes that were attending those events. It's a bit like saying that film is more popular now because more people have access to camcorders and editing software, but this has little to do with, say, theater attendance, which has actually declined (as opposed to increased) with the availability of such things.

There's no doubt in my mind that Bach could've composed Brahms' Paganini Variations if such a style had been prevalent in his day, and the same goes for Mozart and Ein Heldenleben. Most all composer compose music that is reflective of what the popular styles of their day are. At best, they borrow bits and pieces from the past, and perhaps push what is contemporary into new territories. Bach may not have composed anything with a complexity identical to Brahms' Paganini Variations, but neither did Brahms compose anything with a complexity identical to the fugues in The Well-Tempered Clavier, so I don't really see why you're holding one type of complexity over another. It takes as much technical ability and discipline to play The Goldberg Variations as it does any piece in the repertoire. This is all a bit like saying that Shakespeare couldn't have produced anything like Eliot's The Waste Land, which is true, but it's equally true to say that no modern poet has composed a sonnet series remotely like Shakespeare's. Free verse developed in part because poets couldn't master the forms of the past, they couldn't escape the enormous shadows of their predecessors, and one could say a similar thing about the developments in music from the post-baroque periods. To me, it's nothing innately positive or negative, it's just how all arts work.

Also, I rather detest the old falsity that classic forms (in any medium) are "straight-jackets." They're only straight-jackets and inhibitions to those whom haven't mastered them. Pre-classical forms are as diverse and malleable as any post-classical forms are. It's why a composer like Brahms, or even the modern neo-classical examples of composers like Stravinsky, could work in such forms and yet sound quite different from their predecessors.

Lokasenna

02-14-2013, 07:26 AM

I've just listened to Bruckner's 8th Symphony for the first time... ye gods, what an incredible piece of music it is. I'm feeling really quite overcome by it.

I just wanted to share that with you all...

MorpheusSandman

02-14-2013, 09:40 PM

I probably need to spend more time with Bruckner. I've encountered his works in various box sets and collections, but I've never really sat down and listened intently to his work. I've yet to be blown away by what I've heard, which is strange given my love for Mahler.

Anyway, I've finally gotten around to going through some of the box sets I got for Christmas, namely these:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61T-2Tjt6UL.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410f9mjGLQL.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91V0m%2B2U0-L._SL1500_.jpg

This is my first extended encounter with Liszt, and I'm really enjoying it. Zimmerman's performance of the monolithic B minor sonata is now my favorite. I know some find it too calculated, but the sound quality and immense dynamic range really shows off the symphonic weight and scope of the work. I've also been surprised by the quality of the orchestral music, which I was relatively unfamiliar with. The Ravel set is equally good; I hadn't realized how small his output was, nor how consistently excellent it was. Almost everything in this set I've heard has been top notch.

Emil Miller

02-19-2013, 07:55 PM

Maurice Ravel was one of the greatest 20th century composers and his piano concerto in G Major is possibly the greatest concerto of that century. For many years I have owned the definitive recording made in 1957 by Michelangeli with Etorre Gracis conducting the Philharmonia. However, I was elated to find this stunning performance by the impossibly aristocratic Michelangeli playing it with the London Symphony Orchestra under Celibidache. I was also fortunate enough to see Michelangeli play a recital of Beethoven and Chopin in his last London appearance in 1990.

http://youtu.be/9zIXSqyYyq0

MorpheusSandman

02-20-2013, 01:01 AM

Emil Miller

02-21-2013, 06:42 PM

Thanks for that link, Emil. Strangely enough, I just listened to that piano concerto last night and loved it; a bit like Ravel meets Gershwin, actually. That slow movement is especially divine. In fact, I've been blown away by how consistently great Ravel is, though for all the treasures in his output, Daphnis et Chloe still remains my favorite work.

It's very much a reflection of Ravel's meeting with Gershwin in New York in 1928. There are obviously inflections of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue and Piano Concerto in the outer movements although the 2nd movement seems to be exquisitely French.
Ravel's Concerto for left hand is also remarkable and brilliantly scored. It's a pity that, because of its difficulty, it isn't performed as much as it deserves to be.

stlukesguild

02-27-2013, 05:34 PM

The classical music world has just been struck with the deaths of two of its greatest performers: Marie-Claire Alain & Van Cliburn.

RIP Marie-Claire Alain (August 10, 1926 – February 26, 2013)

Alain was a French organist and organ teacher best known for her prolific recording career. Her father, Albert Alain was an organist and composer, as were her brothers, Jehan and Olivie. Alain studied in the Paris Conservatory, in the organ class of Marcel Dupré; she also studied harmony with Maurice Duruflé. Alain recorded the complete organ works of J.S. Bach three times, and also recorded the complete works of over a dozen other major composers for the organ, as well as many individual important works. She was the most-recorded organist in the world, with over 260 recordings in her catalogue.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510x%2BZN1ntL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

I only recently came upon Alain's work, picking up her second recording of Bach's complete organ works. Her performance, the audio quality, and choice of organs make this recording an essential one for lovers of Bach and/or the organ repertoire. I had yet to have played my way though the whole of this set when I stumbled upon the news of Alain's passing... which under the circumstances, seemed to strike particularly close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Claire_Alain

RIP Harvey Lavan "Van" Cliburn, Jr. (July 12, 1934 – February 27, 2013)

Van Cliburn was an American pianist who achieved worldwide recognition in 1958 at the age of twenty-three, when he won the first quadrennial International Tchaikovsky Piano Competition in Moscow, at the height of the Cold War. It was his recognition in Moscow that propelled Cliburn to international fame. The first International Tchaikovsky Competition in 1958 was an event designed to demonstrate Soviet cultural superiority during the Cold War, on the heels of their technological victory with the Sputnik launch in October 1957. Cliburn's performance at the competition finale of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 and Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 earned him a standing ovation lasting eight minutes. When it was time to announce a winner, the judges were obliged to ask permission of the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to give first prize to an American. "Is he the best?" Khrushchev asked. "Then give him the prize!" Cliburn returned home to a ticker-tape parade in New York City, the only time the honor has been accorded a classical musician. His cover story in Time proclaimed him "The Texan Who Conquered Russia". Cliburn returned to the Soviet Union on several occasions. His performances were usually recorded and even televised. According to The Wall Street Journal, "Mr. Cliburn's affection for the Soviet people—and theirs for him—was notable in its warmth during a prolonged period of superpower strain." A videotape of his 1958 performance of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 with Kirill Kondrashin and the Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra documents that Premier Khrushchev was in the audience, joining in the enthusiastic applause.

RCA Victor signed him to an exclusive contract and shortly after his Moscow success, Van Cliburn recorded the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 with Kirill Kondrashin, who had led the Moscow Philharmonic in the prize-winning performances in Moscow. The performance of the Rachmaninoff 3rd Piano Concerto was led by Fritz Reiner. This disc became the first classical album to go platinum... eventually going on to sell over 3 million copies. The recording earned Van Cliburn the 1958 Grammy Award for Best Classical Performance. This recording still stands as one of the best... if not THE BEST... recording of Tchaikovsky concerto. Both Emil and I have mentioned this disc any number of times here.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/81Xl1vBb1IL_SL1500__zpsf3521418.jpg

Van Cliburn went on to make any number of recordings... a good number of which rank among the "essential" recordings for classical music aficionados:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wJhgoEiCL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LPbbgV%2BYL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h7ou4GJGL._SX300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BICjw097L._SX300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51avt3fGFvL._SX300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rRD6VOqtL._SX300_.jpg

In 1958, during a dinner hosted by the National Guild of Piano Teachers, President and Founder Dr. Irl Allison announced a cash prize of $10,000 to be used for a piano competition named in Van Cliburn’s honor. Under the leadership of Grace Ward Lankford and with the dedicated efforts of local music teachers and volunteers, the First Van Cliburn International Piano Competition was held September 24-October 7, 1962 at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth. Until his death, Cliburn continued to serve as Director Emeritus for the Van Cliburn Foundation, as host of the quadrennial competition and host of other programs honoring his legacy.

Van Cliburn played for royalty and heads of state from dozens of countries, and for every U.S. President from Dwight D. Eisenhower to Barack Obama. He began every concert with The Star-Spangled Banner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Cliburn

Gilliatt Gurgle

02-27-2013, 10:33 PM

The classical music world has just been struck with the deaths of two of its greatest performers: Marie-Claire Alain & Van Cliburn.

RIP Marie-Claire Alain (August 10, 1926 – February 26, 2013) ...

RIP Harvey Lavan "Van" Cliburn, Jr. (July 12, 1934 – February 27, 2013)

Van Cliburn was an American pianist who achieved worldwide recognition in 1958 at the age of twenty-three, when he won the first quadrennial International Tchaikovsky Piano Competition in Moscow, at the height of the Cold War. It was his recognition in Moscow that propelled Cliburn to international fame. The first International Tchaikovsky Competition in 1958 was an event designed to demonstrate Soviet cultural superiority during the Cold War, on the heels of their technological victory with the Sputnik launch in October 1957. Cliburn's performance at the competition finale of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 and Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 earned him a standing ovation lasting eight minutes. When it was time to announce a winner, the judges were obliged to ask permission of the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to give first prize to an American. "Is he the best?" Khrushchev asked. "Then give him the prize!" Cliburn returned home to a ticker-tape parade in New York City, the only time the honor has been accorded a classical musician. His cover story in Time proclaimed him "The Texan Who Conquered Russia". Cliburn returned to the Soviet Union on several occasions. His performances were usually recorded and even televised. According to The Wall Street Journal, "Mr. Cliburn's affection for the Soviet people—and theirs for him—was notable in its warmth during a prolonged period of superpower strain." A videotape of his 1958 performance of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 with Kirill Kondrashin and the Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra documents that Premier Khrushchev was in the audience, joining in the enthusiastic applause...

....

Thanks for bringing attention to Van Cliburn's passing. I was planning to mention it once I got home.
Local boy done good!

Found this video I thought was amusing; Van Cliburn on "What's My Line?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lUFFZqXtoM

another clip from Moscow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPRNx9GaplY

Emil Miller

03-07-2013, 04:57 PM

Saint-Saëns earned his place in heaven with this greatest of orchestral French works.
One of the most stunning finales in all music, the conductor's face at the end shows
that there's nothing more to be said.

http://youtu.be/Hmo30e15Bzg

chrisvia

03-21-2013, 02:12 PM

I've recently become enamored with Manuel de Falla's "Noches en los jardines de Espana" (Nights in the Gardens of Spain).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgvR0clWWkI

LitNetIsGreat

04-21-2013, 02:24 PM

Some Handel water music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABaYmjWQWSA

Good chess music.

stlukesguild

04-21-2013, 09:37 PM

I can't believe we've gone a whole month without a post to this once popular thread. In the interim, sadly, the conductor, Sir Colin Davis passed...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-57TrufdpDr4/UWvYUwSKYHI/AAAAAAAAD3k/Jf3Jjsp9WX4/s1600/ColinDavis.jpg

Davis was especially known for his recordings of Berlioz, Sibelius, and Mozart.

My own listening has undergone a change over the past month or two. Over the past several years a good portion of my listening has been devoted to music that was "new" to me: music by composers that I was largely unfamiliar with... or works of music hitherto unknown to me by composers that I was familiar with.

Recently, I've reached something of a "saturation level"... a feeling that I am unable (or unwilling) to put forth the effort needed to continually digest that which is new and unfamiliar. Perhaps, in part, this is owed to stress at work. Perhaps it is also a desire to revisit my old beloved favorites. Whatever the case may be, my listening recently has been focused heavily upon the "core repertoire" and old favorites. Most of my recent music purchases, which have slacked off over the past months, have been of alternative recordings of beloved standards.

Among the works I have been revisiting recently are Beethoven's piano sonatas and concertos, Bach's sonatas and partitas for solo violin, and Mozart's violin concertos.

I recently picked up recordings of the Mozart concertos by Gidon Kremer and Andrew Manze:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E9MPhCsdL._SX300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61NiEZdvFPL._SX300_.jpg

Both Kremer and Manze brought something fresh to an oeuvre that is often underrated. Kremer's recordings with the Kremerata Baltica is informed by an ear that has over the last decade been deeply involved in exploring Modern and Contemporary music. Manze is one of the greatest of the HIP performers with an absolute understanding and mastery of "Early Music". The two, together, reinvigorated my enthusiasm for Mozart's violin concertos... which must rank among the first compositions in which the young Mozart (age 19!) moved beyond the realm of a promising... even brilliant prodigy... into the realm of compositional genius. Wolfgang's own father chided his son for failing to recognize just how talented he was as a violinist... and surely his abandonment of the violin concerto (he wrote none after the 5th) is a loss equal to Beethoven's decision to never compose further piano concertos after the onset of his hearing loss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLFJftAAZXQ

Emil Miller

04-28-2013, 10:07 AM

Here's the finale to Ravel's brilliant concerto for left hand in a remarkable performance by Leon Fleischer who was a noted exponent of the work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0LBezQGLNo&feature=share&list=PLB76C96524425A8BF

Charles Darnay

04-28-2013, 10:16 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92wWvOztLE

I too have been going through a Mozart phase lately. Mainly his serenades. 10 remains my favourite (even though AmadeuS has relegated the 3rd mvt. of that one to the role of melodramatic spoofs) but I have been discovering the ones I am not familiar with.

stlukesguild

04-28-2013, 10:24 PM

Yes... I've been exploring some of these serenades myself as I'm listening to a lot of Mozart's various chamber works. Right now I'm listening to his string quintets. While Haydn may have the edge on Mozart with regard to the string quartet... although Mozart's late works in the genre are unsurpassed... Mozart seems to have been more consistently brilliant in the quintets. Of course... almost all of these works were later products of Mozart's career.

Emil Miller

05-04-2013, 02:02 PM

Not wishing to put the frighteners on anyone but here's the first part of Poulenc's Organ Concerto.
It's an amazing opening but the rest of the concerto is also worth attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoy4KzuZuQ&feature=share&list=PL78DBDB80C6829E8E

LitNetIsGreat

05-14-2013, 01:52 PM

Just listening to Mozart's Piano Concerto no. 26 (and old favourite I used to play over and over) after a rough day. Could do with a glass of wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKUqUYDg-jo

Emil Miller

05-14-2013, 03:34 PM

Just listening to Mozart's Piano Concerto no. 26 (and old favourite I used to play over and over) after a rough day. Could do with a glass of wine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKUqUYDg-jo

Never mind Mozart, Neely, this would have blown his wig through the ceiling. It's all played with the left hand and is one of the greatest concerto's ever written. It's been haunting me for a couple of weeks and, unlike anything by Mozart, has even kept me awake at night. I've only managed to get it out of my head by repeatedly playing some things by Mendelssohn, Bach and Saint-Saens on the piano.

http://youtu.be/2ENNXLb3pXI

stlukesguild

05-14-2013, 08:48 PM

LitNetIsGreat

05-15-2013, 03:26 PM

Great stuff. I've just clicked on the Ravel link. Hope my internet lasts to hear it (my internet is down, my internet is down.:eek::eek::eek::bawling:)

stlukesguild

05-15-2013, 03:54 PM

Your internet is down? Hell my computer has crashed. I've only been able to access the net through my laptop... but it looks like I'm going to need to pick up a new tower. :crash: Luckily I just backed up all my files last weekend on an external hard-drive. My anti-virus program is corrupt and wont function. The printer program is the same... as is Mozilla. The computer goes to blue screen a few minutes after being on. I suspect an over-heated CPU as I've had some problems with one of the fans for a while now. It will likely coast more to have the computer diagnosed and the problems fixed... even if it takes reloading everything through the recovery discs... and then having the fan replaced than it will to buy a new computer. I'd just go with a tablet and the laptop... except I have a huge crapload of images (art) and YouTube videos (classical music, etc...) saved and I also need to tower for connecting the printer, modem, back-up external hard-drive, wi-fi, speaker system, etc...

LitNetIsGreat

05-15-2013, 04:23 PM

Jesus that sounds like a nightmare, sorry about that. Good job you backed everything up though. As you say it would work out cheaper to get another tower and it would probably be of a higher spec anyway, with the rate of technology improvements.

It's only my router that is broken as it is 7 year old. I banged it against the floor and unplugged it again and I've just managed to get a spark of life out of it, it's sure to go down again in a minute though I think. When it does I'm back in the cave.

Emil Miller

05-18-2013, 09:53 AM

Ravel is quite marvelous... one of the greatest orchestrators ever... and this concerto makes it clear just how far Ravel heads into the realm of Modernism. Having said that... I'd far and away take Mozart over him... to say nothing of Bach. I'm still digging through the Marie-Clare Alain box set of Bach's complete organ music and the Helmuth Rilling box set of the complete cantatas.

I put up a recording of Poulenc's organ concerto not long ago and here's her recording of it with Jean Martinon conducting. I bought this recording on a French label years ago and, although it's not the best currently available, it's good to see it on YouTube. Truly terrifying at the beginning, there are some nods to Brahms and Tchaikovsky along the way to the fairground and its reflectively abrupt ending. You might be interested in the accompanying Bernard Buffet pictures.

http://youtu.be/GYomeaSZ4VA

Charles Darnay

05-18-2013, 11:13 AM

I've been listening to Dialouge des Carmelites recently - that's really the only exposure I've had to Poulenc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGlkTxOuZ8

Emil Miller

05-18-2013, 06:31 PM

I've been listening to Dialouge des Carmelites recently - that's really the only exposure I've had to Poulenc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEGlkTxOuZ8

Poulenc was a major figure among the 1920s Parisian set of composers, who underwent a Damascene conversion following the death of one of his many male companions, leading to much of his work taking on a religious aspect. Les Biches, the piano and organ concertos are among the more secular oriented works, but I think it's true to say that many of his compositions appear to have been relegated to the unplayed.

stlukesguild

05-18-2013, 07:22 PM

After the "Austro-Germanic Hegemony" and the Italians, the French are next in line among my favorite musical traditions. I'm especially fond of late 19th/early 20th century French music. Poulenc most certainly is not been overly ignored from what I have seen. Among my own recordings, I could count:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ByCg9T9bL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CT7YJ41KL.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uYT2fjbfL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515SAJ7W2NL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GsyRn1m-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gY494uvRL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61JyV6i0wXL._SY300_.jpg

There are perhaps a few more if I were to check the shelves.

Emil Miller

05-19-2013, 02:03 PM

Well yes he has been well recorded but, apart from the occasional performance of the Les Biches ballet, his other works do not seem to feature as regular fare except perhaps among a narrow band of enthusiasts. His name is rarely mentioned on the BBC music channel whereas his contemporaries, Satie and Ravel are more prominently featured. Its interesting that of the group known as Les Six, it's Georges Auric who had the widest public exposure through his numerous film scores for French, British and American films, notwithstanding his more serious work which has been overshadowed by music such a this from the film Moulin Rouge:

http://youtu.be/WEVNbeNJ0rM

stlukesguild

05-19-2013, 02:48 PM

Satie is almost overrated. He seems to be a favorite of new-to-classical-music fanboys who want to appear hip. There is a marvelous recording of the ballets,
L'Éventail de Jeanne and Les Mariés de la Tour Eiffel which were composed collectively by Les Six and others. The work can be fun... witty... and oh so French.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41sr31oYDWL._SY300_.jpg

Poulenc is certainly the best of Les Six... although honestly I need to listen more to Honeger. The others... even Milhaud... are minor at best. Some other composers of the era that I quite enjoy include Gabriel Pierne and Jacques Ibert. Ibert's music can be so audaciously irreverent... and so atmospheric and sensuous that I quite wish he had composed more. For some reason... a rejection of Wagnerian/Straussian/Germanic bombast and epic scale?... so many of the French composers of this era worked as miniaturists. In some ways this is even true of Stravinsky whose essential oeuvre seems rather puny in contrast to Richard Strauss, Shostakovitch, Prokofiev, etc... I guess this is preferable to Philip Glass who could surely use the aid of a good editor or two.

AuntShecky

05-20-2013, 04:38 PM

This weekend, the HBO featured movie was "Moonrise Kingdom," quite an endearing film, but one of the most striking thngs about it was the soundtrack-- almost exclusively culled from the works of Benjamin Britten (and Hank Williams, Sr.) Not to diminish the excellence of Mr. Williams, the British composer's music was absolutely gorgeous, as well as accessible to a Yahoo such as yours fooly.

stlukesguild

05-20-2013, 05:56 PM

Hank Williams and Benjamin Britten? That sounds like a playlist I would chose for a day painting. Followed by Thelonius Monk, Donizetti, Muddy Waters, and J.S. Bach (Always J.S. Bach!)

AuntShecky

05-21-2013, 04:20 PM

Benjamin Britten

When we draw up lists of favorite (or most important) composers, the nationality of each choice almost always comes from a country on the European continent: Germany, Russia,Austria, Italy, France, with a few from Hungary and Scandinavia. We don't think of British composers, at least not immediately. BUT--

along with Mr. Britten:

Henry Purcell (1659-95)--Dido and Aeneas

George Frederic Handel (1685-1759) Originally from Germany before making Britain his home

Edward Elgar (1857-1934) Maybe "Pomp and Circumstance" --played ubiquitously this season of the year--ultimately did him a disservice in that his significant compositions aren't appreciated enough. His Cello Concerto is one of the most beautiful pieces in "modern" music, and Enigma Variations was far ahead of its time.

Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958)

Gustav Holst (1874-1934)-- "The Planets"

Sir Michael Tippett (1905-1998) Variation on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

(I just discovered that Samuel Barber was an American, but I was under the impression that Samuel Barber was British, perhaps because "Adagio for Strings" was played at Princess Di's funeral. The piece has been called "the saddest music of all time," but its poignance is undeniably beautiful.)

Emil Miller

05-21-2013, 05:48 PM

(I just discovered that Samuel Barber was an American, but I was under the impression that Samuel Barber was British, perhaps because "Adagio for Strings" was played at Princess Di's funeral. The piece has been called "the saddest music of all time," but its poignance is undeniably beautiful.)

I thought that Frank Bridge was an American until I discovered that he was Britten's teacher. The 'saddest music of all time' is obviously a subjective choice but as far as the English are concerned, this is the piece that breaks their hearts.

http://youtu.be/X8fn2R6Hx30

LitNetIsGreat

05-24-2013, 09:30 PM

stlukesguild

05-24-2013, 10:55 PM

I've been exploring of rediscovering a lot of Mozart's works that I have yet to explore in great depth. Today it was the Haffner Serenade and the Serenata Notturno. But right now... its something with a bit more muscle: Beethoven's 3rd and 8th by George Szell.:smash:

Emil Miller

05-25-2013, 07:16 AM

Mozart's No. 20 piano concerto.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h71c4u_95P8

I'm in the mood for Mozart this week, which usually means the piano concertos. I think I'll listen to them all and drink lots of champagne and wine (and ale of course) sounds a good week to me don't you think?

Champagne is also a wine but I have been reliably informed that it is best served to young blonde females, unlike ale of course that's still the preserve of the male, but if champagne and Mozart are your thing then go with it man.
Unfortunately I am currently engaged in a war of attrition with my waistline, which means a sharply restricted alcohol intake, and as it takes more than Mozart to cheer me up under such circumstances, I shall be listening to other great classics throughout the weekend such as:

http://youtu.be/I4My1jlhTVE

LitNetIsGreat

05-25-2013, 07:32 AM

Champagne is also a wine but I have been reliably informed that it is best served to young blonde females, unlike ale of course that's still the preserve of the male, but if champagne and Mozart are your thing then go with it man.
Unfortunately I am currently engaged in a war of attrition with my waistline, which means a sharply restricted alcohol intake, and as it takes more than Mozart to cheer me up under such circumstances, I shall be listening to other great classics throughout the weekend such as:

http://youtu.be/I4My1jlhTVE

That's certainly different to Mozart!

Well I'm 95% an ale man as you know, but occasionally I like a bit of red wine or bottle of fizz...unfortunately there were no young blonds present. I have been pushing it a little of late with the food and drink but I seem to have got away with it around the waist for now.

Charles Darnay

05-25-2013, 10:58 AM

My background accompaniment for today is Respighi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMeXzqTfNcY

I think Pines of Rome has a such a simple pleasure to them.

LitNetIsGreat

05-25-2013, 08:03 PM

The Pines of Rome is such a fantastic title, so good that the music just can't live up to it.

Listening to Mozart piano concerto no.22 tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6ot4c8HVSA

stlukesguild

05-26-2013, 12:08 AM

It was Mozart for me this evening as well... the Requiem to be exact. Perhaps it was appropriate... our old dog that has slept in the bed with us since she was a pup started having seizures this week. We were sure we'd be forced to have her put to sleep today... but the vet assured us that she was quite healthy for her age and that such seizures were not uncommon... and controllable with a regimen or anti-seizure medication. Thus the inevitable is delayed... and we spent the evening with steaks cooked over the grill and accompanied by Young's Double Chocolate... and the dog begging for table scraps. Much better than spending the day digging a grave in the back-yard and dealing with the fact that the wife would have been an absolute mess.

Perhaps the Requiem was the wrong choice after all. But what music would be appropriate for having cheated death? Gounod's Faust?

MorpheusSandman

05-27-2013, 06:31 AM

Perhaps the Requiem was the wrong choice after all. But what music would be appropriate for having cheated death? Gounod's Faust?Or Rake's Progress...

stlukesguild

05-27-2013, 11:29 AM

I actually spent yesterday evening listening to Gounod's Faust... a highly enjoyable opera... regardless of how profound (or not). The opera is quite different from most that I know (outside of the Russians) in that the male voice and choruses dominate... and most of the male voices are baritone or bass-baritone.

LitNetIsGreat

05-27-2013, 06:09 PM

Glad your dog is well, I didn't know you had a pet. Funny the books I am very slowly reading, All Creatures Great and Small and follow ups, contained a similar story about a dog they thought would have to be put down because of seizures but it turned out was fine after a simple course of treatment.

MorpheusSandman

05-27-2013, 07:21 PM

I actually spent yesterday evening listening to Gounod's Faust... a highly enjoyable opera... regardless of how profound (or not). It's enjoyable--I especially love the version with Sutherland playing Marguerite; God what a voice she had in her prime!--but I've never really thought that it was nearly as great as its reputation suggests.

stlukesguild

05-27-2013, 09:12 PM

I listened to the version with Cluytens conducting and Victoria de los Angeles as Marguerita. I've never been overly fond of Sutherland. I'm far more enamored of Callas (and it seems one loves one or the other).

Right now I'm listening to a singer I would place well above Sutherland:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518d9HT4ykL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Sutherland, of course, had a far greater range... her instrument was unrivaled... but I'm not overly impressed with what she does with it. Wunderlich was perhaps the most natural and lyrical tenor. One never senses that he is straining at all. It is a real tragedy that he died so young... and under such freak circumstances.

Returning to Sutherland... not long ago a discussion of Netrebko and Alagna in Manon came up on an opera site I frequent. It was pointed out that today there is a greater expectation that the singers be physically suited to their roles. After watching this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fyytF2xsio

the question was raised... "Could we actually accept Sutherland and Pavarotti rolling about the bed together in this scene? Sutherland as a woman able to seduce a man on first sight?"

LitNetIsGreat

05-28-2013, 07:29 PM

I'm just picking on random numbers of Mozart piano concertos! Tonight's lot 15 and 16.

I love the piano concerto, it is probably my favourite type of classic piece, probably my favourite form of music. With this is in mind it is somewhat puzzling that I have never sat down and listened to the whole lot of them (Mozart's) something that must be corrected. Instead I have stuck to a few and played them repeatedly. I'm going to do a little reading on the concertos, though as I remember it is the later ones that are considered the best is it not? These are the ones I've usually stuck with, but I want to play and listen to them all quite a lot.

OK, I've gone through the 15/16 and into the later works, 24, 25 and 26, though I must go to bed soon!

stlukesguild

05-28-2013, 09:35 PM

The school year is rapidly running down. I have 5 more days with children... and they are all absolutely insane. Thus when I come home I need something to put me in a better frame of mind. Neely's been going with Mozart... a descent choice... but I prefer this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rnSBeBzgL._SX300_.jpg

The concept of putting children in a big oven holds a strange attraction at the moment. :devil:

LitNetIsGreat

05-29-2013, 07:09 AM

Ha, ha. Yes I'm currently on my week's break from the madness. Getting up when you want. Eating breakfast. Reading. Listening to music. Biking. Tennis. Lazing around. Drinking beer etc, etc, it's what it's all about.

stlukesguild

05-29-2013, 11:37 AM

One can only cheat death for so long. Our little dog of 16 years passed away suddenly this morning.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/IMG_8123small_zps42a8fd11.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_8123small_zps42a8fd11.jpg.html)

Appropriate listening includes:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41B5CEM5TRL.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61omCl8Au7L._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XreYTSFtL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Ecurb

05-29-2013, 07:07 PM

My condolences. If you happen to own this book (http://www.worldcat.org/title/norton-book-of-personal-essays/oclc/3498426), Vicki Hearne's essay "Oyez a Beaumont" is one of the best essays about the death of dogs. It's from her excellent book "Animal Happiness". Here's an excerpt:

in T.H. White's "the Sword in the Stone, the great hound named Beaumont is on the ground, his back broken by the boar, and the expert, the master of the hounds, William Twyti, has been hurt also. Twyit limps over to Beaumont and utters the eternal litany: "Hark to Beaumont. softly, Beaumont, mon amy. Oyez a Beaumont the valiant, sleep now, old friend Beaumont, good old dog," while the huntsman kills the dog for him: "Then Robin's falchion let Beaumont out of this world, to run free with Orion and to roll among the stars.".... Master Twyti seems to have had courage, for he rsoe from besides Beaumont's wounds and "whipped the hounds off the corpse of the boar as he was accustomed to do. He put his horn to his lips and blew four notes of the Mort without a quaver.... But Master William Twyti startled The Wart, for he seemed to be crying," and this book, "The Sword in the Stone" is about the education of great hounds and of a great king, King Arthur in fact. Immortal Beamont, Douce, swef, swef. And immortal Arthur -- douce, douce, hearken to Arthur, they would say in time about rex quondom rexque futurus, the once and future king. Which is to say, this is all of it about the education of a hound and a boy.

LitNetIsGreat

05-29-2013, 07:23 PM

Yes that is sad and sorry about that for your and your missus' sake. Must be a big loss. It is scarily true though that we all can only ever cheat death for so long, which is only a very short time.

LitNetIsGreat

05-29-2013, 07:35 PM

Yep, some more of the same, right now the no. 20. Plucked at random, but I intend to go through them all this week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHKJeoXdNM

This one is a good one, I've listened to this one many times before. Very good.

Interesting, reading a little yesterday about them and it appears that Mozart's attitude to some of the early concertos was less than complimentary...as I remembered vaguely.

I have always like the concertos, especially Mozart's, though Bach's are on top too of course, for the simple reason and feel of the delicious little piano trills set against the background of the orchestra. I believe that the symphonies are rated higher, generally, but for me the simple, or not so simple - I don't know I'm not musical, pleasures of the piano and orchestra duel is just very satisfying. I love the concerto form and for me the piano is the best, and the violin just behind. This is just a personal flavour anyway.

When this one has finished I'm going to go right back and play it again. And in the meantime I intend to fill up my glass a few more times!

stlukesguild

05-29-2013, 08:55 PM

Well... after a day of Requiems and other such music in memoriam I am now recognizing the 100th anniversary of one of the most earth-shattering musical debuts:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514lGVPhjPL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWotpIy0uTg

Even at 100 yewars old, this ought to knock ol' Emil/Brian out of his easy chair.

“It’s terrifying!” whispered Claude Debussy, apparently with a “sad, anxious” expression on his face. “I don’t understand it!”

Debussy was not alone in his utter lack of comprehension that unseasonably balmy Paris night of 29 May, 1913. Over in another box, in the ravishing art-nouveau auditorium at the city’s glitzy new Théâtre-des-Champs-Élysées, the composer Camille Saint-Saëns heard merely a few bars of the strange opening woodwind solo before hissing to his neighbour: “If that’s a bassoon – I’m a baboon!”

Others would not be so polite: the frenzied riots that kicked off at the premiere of The Rite of Spring have become legend. The capacity audience that evening ran the gamut from bejewelled, high-society Parisian ladies and their white-tie-wearing gentlemen to a gaggle of more bohemian critics and poets, whom Sergei Diaghilev had allowed in for free. Jean Cocteau described the crowd as exhibiting “the thousand varieties of snobbism, super-snobbism, anti-snobbism.”

Perhaps they came spoiling for a fight. The succès de scandale was, after all, a well-established element of cultural life at the turn of the last century, especially in Paris. Pieces by Wagner, Schoenberg and others customarily provoked riots, as did Wilde’s play Salomé and its 1906 operatic treatment by Richard Strauss. The Impressionist painters so relished their rejection by the establishment they triumphantly created the Salons des Refusés.

And just think of the scandalised reaction to Picasso’s radical 1906-7 work Les Demoiselles d’Avignon, which smashed pretty much every received idea about the representation of three dimensions onto a flat canvas, paving the way not only for Cubism but to the possibility of total abstraction in art.

This was an era in which to be a truly avant garde artist was to push audiences to the very limits of what they could understand or accept – and far beyond. An era in which certain works of art, music and literature shattered everything that had gone before; after which it was genuinely possible to say ‘nothing would ever be the same again’.

Assault on the senses

Nevertheless, the riots at the premiere of The Rite of Spring were of a different order. For the past four years Paris had been captivated by Sergei Diaghilev’s Ballets Russes, and had perhaps come to expect dance of astonishing, radical sensuality. But not this assault! The new ballet, intended to depict the pre-historic spring rites of ancient Russia and the great sacrifice of a Slavonic tribe, had been created by a trio of visionaries. They were Igor Stravinsky, whose previous ballets The Firebird and Petrushka had already seen him acclaimed as the greatest young composer of the twentieth-century; Nicholas Roerich, an eminent student of pre-historical pagan Russia, whom Stravinsky praised in an interview as “the creator of the decorative atmosphere for this work of faith”; and – of course – Vaslav Nijinsky, the breathtaking 24-year-old dancer and choreographer.

According to the historian Lucy Moore, whose superb biography of Nijinsky has just been published, even Nijinsky was nervous before the curtain rose, knowing that his dancers were baffled and frustrated by the “shuffling steps, flat-footed jumps, clenched hands, hunched shoulders, unsynchronized and deliberately primitive choreography” he had dreamed up for them. Additionally, thanks to Roerich’s designs, they had to dance in unwieldy costumes, false beards and pointed, fur-trimmed caps for the men and headbands and long, fake plaits for the women.

Moore describes how Nijinsky, sweating in the wings before that alarmingly exposed bassoon solo began, knew that his long-robed dancers were probably wondering: “what is ballet for, if beauty and grace are removed?”

Meanwhile, “so interconnected were the choreography and the composition,” Moore reminds us, “that Stravinsky noted the rhythm of their steps on his piano score.” And what is music like this, crunchy with dissonance and twisted, sadistic harmonies for?

The chosen one

One early listener described it as: “As irritating to the nervous system as the continuous thudding of a savage’s tom-tom!” Stravinsky later claimed that, rather like the ‘chosen one’ who dances herself to death in the ballet’s climactic Sacrificial Dance, he’d had to enter into a sort of creative trance to write The Rite of Spring. "Very little immediate tradition lies behind [it] – and no theory,” he remarked. “I had only my ear to help me; I heard and I wrote what I heard. I am the vessel through which The Rite passed."

A vessel he may well have been; but others heard, and, in their own way, wrote what they heard: like Picasso’s painting, the Rite of Spring irrevocably altered the course of 20th century music. From Carter to Boulez, Adams to Adès, nothing was ever the same again; listening today, the score is as revolutionary and thrilling as ever.

One hundred years after the notorious premiere of The Rite of Spring, the suspicion remains that the hysterical reaction from the crowd may have been one big publicity stunt orchestrated by the ever-canny Diaghilev. Why, after all, did Gabriel Astruc, the theatrical impresario behind the Théâtre-des-Champs-Élysées, have to lean out of his box, fists clenched, and scream at the rowdy audience: “First listen! Then hiss!”?

We’ll never know the truth. But perhaps it is immaterial. Contemporary observers, Moore argues, felt the music and choreography of The Rite of Spring could be “interpreted as a sign that the end of civilisation was at hand.” A few weeks ago, I found myself in the auditorium at Théâtre-des-Champs-Élysées – which is still, as Astruc intended a century ago, a temple vibrating to the vitality of art and imagination, curiosity and creativity. And it struck me that even now, in Paris, May 2013, no other work over the past 100 years has yet come close to the impact or influence of The Rite of Spring. A whole new generation of composers, designers, dancers and choreographers are still seeking bold and beautiful creative answers to the aesthetic and musical questions it raised. If that’s the end of civilization, then I’m a baboon.

LitNetIsGreat

05-30-2013, 07:39 PM

Never known what to think of the Rite of Spring. The first time I heard it I though 'what?'. Now when I hear it, I think, 'what?'.

I have spent the last three days doing nothing but sitting on the (new) sofa doing chess stuff and then at night listening to Mozart, drinking beer and doing some more chess stuff. Tomorrow I'm getting off my arse, going swimming and maybe walking, but I'll come back to my chess stuff etc, etc.

On tonight's playlist is the 21st.

stlukesguild

05-30-2013, 10:00 PM

I first came upon The Rite on a cassette recording that included Carmina Burana on the B-side. I was really too ignorant of classical music at that time to recognize just how audacious the work really was. And after all... I was already listening to the Rolling Stones and Miles Davis' Bi tches Brew as well as Thelonius Monk and Charles Mingus at the time. The Rite remains one of the few pieces by Stravinsky that I truly love. Most of his work I admire... but don't really love. Now for someone who left me thinking WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezOI3sPqWPU

Emil Miller

05-31-2013, 04:26 AM

I agree with Neely's dislike for The Rite of Spring, which I make passing reference to in A Tangled Web. My initial and remaining attitude to it is that it's all very clever but is it music? It is long ago since I first heard it but it still raises an indulgent smile.
Now, setting Stravinsky aside, when it comes to piano concertos, this is what I was listening to when StLukes was playing the Rolling Stones ( God help us ). Written by another iconoclastic composer it's given a stunning performance here by Martha Argerich and, although it's not played nowadays as often as his second and third concertos, it's still a favourite of mine.

http://youtu.be/JqCwQ9clHec

LitNetIsGreat

06-01-2013, 08:10 PM

Time to raise the stakes in this desperate hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnRIU4u7B9o

Back to work on Monday. The misery is already upon me, though I am being brave, a bit like Jesus at the last supper...stoically accepting his fate, as he clasps his wine filled goblet with white knuckles...ha, ha.

And here's some classic Woody Allen on the theme for Emil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCNZfdTezo

I love the bit a 2.28 where she goes off track - see this the funny Allen stuff Emil refuses to watch, ha, ha.

stlukesguild

06-01-2013, 09:24 PM

I've been all over the classical spectrum over the last couple of days: Mozart's piano concertos 13, 14, 15, 16, Mozart's violin concertos 3-5 by Andrew Manze, Richard Strauss' Burleske, Tod und Verklarung, and Waltzes from Der Rosenkavalier by Reiner, Bach Cantatas by Rilling, Beethoven's Christ on the Mt. of Olives also by Rilling... and right now its Domingo, Dessay, Voigt and some "great bleeding chunks" by Richard Wagner... whose 200th birthday May 22 was certainly of far greater importance than the 100th of the Rite... although I still love the Rite.

As for Emil's hatred for the Rolling Stones... he must have been a Beatles man.:D

Emil Miller

06-02-2013, 07:03 AM

Time to raise the stakes in this desperate hour.

Back to work on Monday. The misery is already upon me, though I am being brave, a bit like Jesus at the last supper...stoically accepting his fate, as he clasps his wine filled goblet with white knuckles...ha, ha.

And here's some classic Woody Allen on the theme for Emil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCNZfdTezo

I love the bit a 2.28 where she goes off track - see this the funny Allen stuff Emil refuses to watch, ha, ha.

Hang on for another month or so and you will be into the long break.
Was that Michael Caine I spotted in that clip? I don't know who was the most desperate, he for acting (?) in the film or Woody Allen for signing him up.
In any case, self-conscious smart arse American humour (?) is just embarrassing.

I've been all over the classical spectrum over the last couple of days: Mozart's piano concertos 13, 14, 15, 16, Mozart's violin concertos 3-5 by Andrew Manze, Richard Strauss' Burleske, Tod und Verklarung, and Waltzes from Der Rosenkavalier by Reiner, Bach Cantatas by Rilling, Beethoven's Christ on the Mt. of Olives also by Rilling... and right now its Domingo, Dessay, Voigt and some "great bleeding chunks" by Richard Wagner... whose 200th birthday May 22 was certainly of far greater importance than the 100th of the Rite... although I still love the Rite.

As for Emil's hatred for the Rolling Stones... he must have been a Beatles man.:D

Now, now, StLuke. Surely you must know that the classical spectrum doesn't consist entirely of Germanic music.
As for pop groups of every stripe, with the accent on 'tripe, hatred is too strong a sentiment to apply to their pathetic maundering, although I will admit to an amused contempt.

stlukesguild

06-02-2013, 12:20 PM

Now, now, StLuke. Surely you must know that the classical spectrum doesn't consist entirely of Germanic music.

It is open to some small debate as to whether the English language produced the greatest body of known literature in the West. There is really no debate considering classical music. The "Austro-Germanic Hegemony" absolutely dominates: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, Haydn, Handel, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms... this group alone is as if the English literary canon could boast not only of Shakespeare, Milton, and Chaucer, but also Dante, Homer, Tolstoy, Montaigne, Cervantes, Baudelaire, Aeschylus, Euripides, and Virgil. My collection of Austro-Germanic composers outnumbers that of every other nation combined... including your beloved pop musicians.:D

Having said that... I quite love the French and Italians... followed by the Russians, the English (who actually do have some lovely music) and then all the rest. I've actually got Puccini lined up for today.

As for pop groups of every stripe, with the accent on 'tripe, hatred is too strong a sentiment to apply to their pathetic maundering, although I will admit to an amused contempt.

Aha! A Monkees man!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYNuU6Xtms

LitNetIsGreat

06-02-2013, 12:45 PM

No, no I think he's into Beach Boys (that's a group Emil not an homo insult, ha, ha.)

Hang on for another month or so and you will be into the long break.

Was that Michael Caine I spotted in that clip? I don't know who was the most desperate, he for acting (?) in the film or Woody Allen for signing him up.
In any case, self-conscious smart arse American humour (?) is just embarrassing.

Yes that's what I'm thinking, get through it for one more half-term and then six weeks off followed by a short half-term and then a week in Tenerife in October.

Yes it was Michael Caine, he's very good at playing the wooden square in that most loved of films. I doubt I will be listening to anything tonight, I'm going to smash one last glass of Cumberland Ale though for the road.

Emil Miller

06-02-2013, 01:32 PM

No, no I think he's into Beach Boys (that's a group Emil not an homo insult, ha, ha.)

Yes that's what I'm thinking, get through it for one more half-term and then six weeks off followed by a short half-term and then a week in Tenerife in October.

Yes it was Michael Caine, he's very good at playing the wooden square in that most loved of films. I doubt I will be listening to anything tonight, I'm going to smash one last glass of Cumberland Ale though for the road.

Now if you had said Beach Girls, my interest might have beeen aroused as long as they were not a caterwauling group of harpies.

Tenerife eh? I hope you're not planning on getting tattooed and earinged like the guy who recently fixed my computer before he jetted off to the Canary Islands which apparently are host to many a modern day neanderthal.

Michael Caine is to acting what pop groups are to music and it's no coincidence that both he and they are a product of the 1960s.Never has so much rubbish been sold by so few to so many.

stlukesguild

06-02-2013, 03:18 PM

Another half term? Accck! I can't even imagine such torture. I have just two more days with kids (Tomorrow and Tuesday) followed by the long Summer break which is virtually the only thing that still makes teaching bearable as the Educrats do more and more to destroy learning and the profession as a whole. I'll be thinking of you Thursday Neely... with my feet up in the studio and a cold British stout or Belgian ale in hand.

:cheers2:

stlukesguild

06-02-2013, 03:20 PM

Now if you had said Beach Girls, my interest might have beeen aroused as long as...

...they were all petite and submissive Asian girls with a penchant for Romantic piano concertos.:devil:

Emil Miller

06-02-2013, 06:49 PM

Now if you had said Beach Girls, my interest might have beeen aroused as long as...

...they were all petite and submissive Asian girls with a penchant for Romantic piano concertos.:devil:

I've no idea what you are talking about, unless it's something like this:

http://youtu.be/PmaGcQyAKcM

LitNetIsGreat

06-06-2013, 12:07 PM

Yes, got another seven weeks, well one of them almost done, 6.2 weeks left. Spent all this week knackered with headache.

Well we got a good deal with the Tenerife holiday, 4 star hotel all inclusive and this is the nearest beach.
http://www.spain-tenerife.com/UK/beaches/playa-del-duque.html
That's got to be better than Skegness!

Emil Miller

06-07-2013, 09:47 AM

Well it certainly looks OK but have you thought about the downside? No draught beer except for Fosters lager and no fish and chips. You could be wishing you were back in Skegness after a few days. I read that one of the natural interests on offer at your chosen resort is whale watching but you could do that in Skegness with all those blubbery bodies milling around the seafront.
Keeping this thread on track I paid a visit to Frederick Delius's grave in a Limpsfield churchyard yesterday because it was at the end of a 12 mile hike across what must be some of the most glorious countryside anywhere. Because of the extra long winter, everything that was held back, has now burst out into the most amazing mass of foliage and brilliant flowers along the way. Kent used to be described as the garden of England and in some respects it still is.
Thomas Beecham, Delius's champion, is also buried in the churchyard but I was too tired to search for his grave and had to sit under a yew tree with Delius's tombstone just a few feet away while I rested up for a while. Here's Beecham conducting the composer's most popular piece.

http://youtu.be/004hhSukj80

LitNetIsGreat

06-07-2013, 08:22 PM

No imagination tonight, on my first weekend being back, with Vivaldi Four Seasons.

LitNetIsGreat

06-14-2013, 07:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIWaL8qqiqs
Some Bach Violin.

And then move on to some Bach piano, for the lads...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyIvoWdNFQ

stlukesguild

06-14-2013, 09:57 PM

Friday night and we went out for Mexican (do they even have such in the UK?) including two large Margaritas. I wanted a couple of shots of Tequila on the side... but I gotta get up at 5 AM.:prrr:

Right now I'm sipping a tall straight vodka on the rocks with Cecilia:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pfZl%2Bj7ZL._SY300_.jpg

Cecilia, you go girl!:cheers2:

LitNetIsGreat

06-15-2013, 04:52 AM

5am and alcohol is a bad combination, but then again 5am without alcohol is still pretty bad. Yes me have Mexican but it tends to be thrown in with Mexican/Italian restaurant combined.

How about some Medieval music to start the morning off with a bang and wake up Stluke's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUGYlGNhcRc

I quite fancy the flavour of Medieval music though I don't know anything much about it, I'll have to dig around. I can't listen to such music though without fancying a goblet of ale, meat and a lusty wench but it's far too early for any of that.

Emil Miller

06-15-2013, 10:19 AM

LitNetIsGreat

06-15-2013, 07:31 PM

Emil Miller

06-16-2013, 01:04 PM

Great stuff Emil! Sounds like something from an episode of Heartbeat.

Had a little goblet of ale, and some meat, just something missing...? Oh, some violin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etB8MAjNaz0

Been stuck in the house all day today with the kids, so tomorrow I fancy taking the motor out for a spin. Maybe in the Red Lion in Linton, sat in the village green with a pint of ale and a book for company?

http://www.pubs.com/main_site/pub_details.php?pub_id=1531

Now when it comes the the violin, I prefer music to be somewhat sweeter than Bach, who is rather too dry for my taste, even though I was playing him on the piano earlier today. In this connection there's nothing sweeter than the divine Sarah playing Massenet's Meditation.

http://youtu.be/LasbhkKzfOo

LitNetIsGreat

06-19-2013, 05:33 PM

Emil Miller

06-19-2013, 06:47 PM

It is time to fully embrace the bombastic nature of Beethoven!

I found my i-pod thing at the back of my sock drawer and shoved Beethoven's 9th on it from You Tube (I forgot you can get You Tube on it, great).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI

Go for it Sunny Jim.

Well if you will hang around with Bach and Mozart, it's not surprising that you find Beethoven's 9th symphony bombastic. It might have been better if you had listened to something like this: http://youtu.be/Bbje2CU9Ltw

Emil Miller

06-21-2013, 06:29 PM

If you're still not wholly into Beethoven, how about one of his greatest overtures. The photo was taken, as you can imagine, long ago in Vienna.

http://youtu.be/D3qbOTgEJOk

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/6451/9dkc.jpg

stlukesguild

06-22-2013, 12:17 AM

Currently listening to Jean-Philippe Rameau, one of the great composers of the Baroque, performed with such verve and muscularity by Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CwrOf50EL.jpg

Honestly, I love Romanticism every bit as much as Emil... but I just can't imagine limiting myself to a single musical era or genre. Before Rameau I was listening to the Rolling Stones... and even earlier today... while at the studio painting... I played Herbert von Karajan performing a selection of Romantic era ballet music... followed by Sonny Boy Williamson. Tomorrow I must give a new disc of Eleanor Steber singing Richard Strauss... recorded here in my hometown.

Emil Miller

06-22-2013, 11:17 AM

Honestly, I love Romanticism every bit as much as Emil... but I just can't imagine limiting myself to a single musical era or genre. Before Rameau I was listening to the Rolling Stones... and even earlier today... while at the studio painting... I played Herbert von Karajan performing a selection of Romantic era ballet music... followed by Sonny Boy Williamson. Tomorrow I must give a new disc of Eleanor Steber singing Richard Strauss... recorded here in my hometown.

Strangely enough, the first music I fell for was Bach. It used to be played by the school orchestra, consisting of the teacher on piano accompanied by about a dozen nine-year-old boys on violins and recorders, and would drift into our classroom during boring lessons. Obviously it wasn't his more complicated music but the kind of thing I now play on the piano. Then when I was eleven, we were taken to a children's concert where the London Symphony Orchestra played, inter alia, Borodin's 'Polovtsian Dances' and I was overwhelmed by the power and melodic invention of the music. So while I find Bach and pre-romantic composers pleasing enough, they don't measure up to the far greater expressive capacity of the modern day symphony orchestra. Naturally, I didn't stay stuck in the romantic era and I have posted composers as varied as Shostakovich and Gershwin on this forum but for preference I always return to the romantics, from Beethoven to Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov and all the others in between.

As for genre, while I like popular music that has a melody, good lyrics and well modulated voices, I don't consider the grotesque and infantile noise that passes for music now worth listening to.

I have never heard of Sonny Boy Williamson but the name doesn't inspire confidence.

stlukesguild

06-22-2013, 07:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXDUN7flrY

stlukesguild

06-22-2013, 07:47 PM

...when I was eleven, we were taken to a children's concert where the London Symphony Orchestra played, inter alia, Borodin's 'Polovtsian Dances' and I was overwhelmed by the power and melodic invention of the music. So while I find Bach and pre-romantic composers pleasing enough, they don't measure up to the far greater expressive capacity of the modern day symphony orchestra.

:mad2:

LitNetIsGreat

06-22-2013, 08:59 PM

Great photo Emil, amazing experience and I'm currently listening to that brilliant overture as I type and ponder my empty Cumberland glass (don't panic I have plenty more in the fridge, breathe out).

I can also relate to Stluke's suggestion about mixed genres though, as today I have been listening to Black Sabbath's new album with Ozzy!! Not bad. Bach, Beethoven and Black Sabbath!? For me I think maybe it is just a question of mood.

In terms of reading I have also been doing, lots of chess 1-2 hours a day (driving me insane), but also All Creatures Great and Small, Wordsworth and a little Milton. Post modernism in action or just mood music? I don't know.

I just enjoy going where the mood takes me. For example I have not listened to the Beatles for months and months but when I did I was playing it for hours a day. I just think I have an addictive personality that milks enjoyment while it is there.

Anyway, the Jean-Philippe Rameau stuff is fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zegtH-acXE

I shared the above brilliant piece with a friend and made him show it when he covered a French lesson and he made them watch it over and over; the council estate kids must have though what the .....:eek:

In terms of classical music though, or music at its most serious, I tend to return to either Mozart or Bach and usually the same pieces as previously posted over and over. Bach and Gould for example can often throw out everything else. And Mozart opera has the same effect.

Edit: How can you not want to run around like a nutter and renounce life in worship to the arts when you hear such things as this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikQNFqVkNNc

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 12:21 AM

I have come to wholly embrace Picasso's thoughts on the sources of art. Picasso suggested that art built wholly upon the "elite" or "fine art" eventually stagnates... ossifies... and becomes academic. I think of this not only when I look at something like this... which was being churned out as Impressionism and Post-Impressionism were rethinking the direction of painting and pointing the way toward Modernism:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_comerre_le_triomphe_du_cygne-04_zpsa0c2c038.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/comerre_le_triomphe_du_cygne-04_zpsa0c2c038.jpg.html)

... nor even the contemporary equivalents such as:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_thinkingman01_zps173312bc.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/thinkingman01_zps173312bc.jpg.html)

... but I think that art such as this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_contemporary-minimalism-painting_zps8d0126ea.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/contemporary-minimalism-painting_zps8d0126ea.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_white-flower-1960_zpsbee8fcbb.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/white-flower-1960_zpsbee8fcbb.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_sol-lewitt-123454321_zpsdb615efa.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/sol-lewitt-123454321_zpsdb615efa.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Kosuth1and3_zpse23582a9.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/Kosuth1and3_zpse23582a9.jpg.html)

... is just as much "Academic". I can't imagine the development and the proliferation of such art prior to the shift in Art Education away from the ateliers and art schools toward the universities and colleges. Its a purely intellectual art devoid of any sensuality, passion, or emotion... any element drawn from the world outside the protective cocoon of the university art department and the contemporary gallery system.

Picasso argued that "true" art is created in the same manner in which the Aristocrats of the Italian Renaissance "created" their children: through a merger of the "high" and the "low-born." When I look at the work of the Modern artists I admire I recognize this merger. Degas could draw like an old master... but drew upon imagery from the contemporary ballet, night clubs, brothels, etc...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_11b_zpsbae04caa.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/11b_zpsbae04caa.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_6b_zps08200adf.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/6b_zps08200adf.jpg.html)

Max Beckmann might employ jazz singers, bellhops, and the New York Times alongside Wagnerian or Homeric heroes:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_133_zps342b9ab1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/133_zps342b9ab1.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_139_zps6859fc2e.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/139_zps6859fc2e.jpg.html)

The idea of limiting oneself to listening solely to some notion of an elite "high art" when it comes to music doesn't interest me in the least... any more so than the reverse: those who only listen to pop music.

By the way... that's a great performance of "Les Indes galantes"... William Christie with the fabulously theatrical Patricia Petibon... and there's also the lovely Danielle de Niese is the earlier portions of the opera. I have this performance on DVD... one of my absolute favorites.

But I also love Marc Minkowski's version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKvd4tMkFHc

Emil Miller

06-23-2013, 05:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXDUN7flrY

This video contains content from
Warner Chappell and UMG, one or
more of whom have blocked it in
your country on copyright grounds.

:lol: Divine intervention?

Edit: How can you not want to run around like a nutter and renounce life in worship to the arts when you hear such things as this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikQNFqVkNNc

Because I'm more likely to be listening to something like this. At 9.08 it actually reaches for heaven with a breadth and scope that makes Mozart seem like a miniaturist.
As a young man Strauss studied aesthetics and so was able to compose this at 25. It's the Berlin Philharmonic at its best under the composer's greatest interpreter.

However, you have the consolation of knowing that Mozart was Strauss's favourite composer as he was for Tchaikovsky also.

http://youtu.be/_XkQi_dfWEA

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 11:44 AM

Because I'm more likely to be listening to something like this. At 9.08 it actually reaches for heaven with a breadth and scope that makes Mozart seem like a miniaturist.

What you are missing is the realization that scale or grandeur and the wealth or breadth of elements at ones disposal are not a measure of artistic merit. There are "miniaturists" like Vermeer whose works can stand alongside the greatest epic paintings of Rubens or Veronese without blanching in the least. If we look to the history of film we find that more recent film-makers have the advantage of color and special effects and CGI and other elements that earlier film-makers could not have even imagined. This is not unlike the rich breadth and variety of musical sounds available to a composer like Wagner, Strauss, or Tchaikovsky... vs that which was available to Back or Mozart. But if I look at what was done with the limits of black & white film, for example (The Grand Illusion, Citizen Kane, Virgin Spring, Persona, The Seventh Seal, Casablanca, Double Indemnity, It's a Wonderful Life, Dr. Strangelove, Some Like it Hot, The Apartment, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Apartment, 12 Angry Men, Psycho, Strangers on a Train, The Lady Vanishes, M., The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, etc...) I find that in no way do these films pale in comparison to those in which the film-makers had a broader array of resources at their disposal. Genius in art has nothing to do with the scale... the medium... or the breadth of tools and techniques at the artist's disposal. The painters of the Baroque were blessed with an education that included an understanding of anatomy, physiology, linear and aerial perspective, and techniques for creating the visual illusion of 3-D form that surpassed that available to most artists of the Renaissance... yet only 4 Baroque painters (Rubens, Rembrandt, Vermeer, and Velazquez) can stand their own against such Renaissance masters as Michelangelo, Raphael, Titian, Durer, Van Eyck, Giotto, Giorgione, Veronese, Bellini, etc... In other words... its not the tools, but what you do with them (as we've all probably heard before:lol::blush:).

As much as I love Strauss and Wagner... neither surpasses Bach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGQLXRTl3Z0

Emil Miller

06-23-2013, 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=stlukesguild;1225401]Because I'm more likely to be listening to something like this. At 9.08 it actually reaches for heaven with a breadth and scope that makes Mozart seem like a miniaturist.

What you are missing is the realization that scale or grandeur and the wealth or breadth of elements at ones disposal are not a measure of artistic merit. There are "miniaturists" like Vermeer whose works can stand alongside the greatest epic paintings of Rubens or Veronese without blanching in the least. If we look to the history of film we find that more recent film-makers have the advantage of color and special effects and CGI and other elements that earlier film-makers could not have even imagined. This is not unlike the rich breadth and variety of musical sounds available to a composer like Wagner, Strauss, or Tchaikovsky... vs that which was available to Back or Mozart. But if I look at what was done with the limits of black & white film, for example (The Grand Illusion, Citizen Kane, Virgin Spring, Persona, The Seventh Seal, Casablanca, Double Indemnity, It's a Wonderful Life, Dr. Strangelove, Some Like it Hot, The Apartment, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Apartment, 12 Angry Men, Psycho, Strangers on a Train, The Lady Vanishes, M., The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, etc...) I find that in no way do these films pale in comparison to those in which the film-makers had a broader array of resources at their disposal. Genius in art has nothing to do with the scale... the medium... or the breadth of tools and techniques at the artist's disposal. The painters of the Baroque were blessed with an education that included an understanding of anatomy, physiology, linear and aerial perspective, and techniques for creating the visual illusion of 3-D form that surpassed that available to most artists of the Renaissance... yet only 4 Baroque painters (Rubens, Rembrandt, Vermeer, and Velazquez) can stand their own against such Renaissance masters as Michelangelo, Raphael, Titian, Durer, Van Eyck, Giotto, Giorgione, Veronese, Bellini, etc... In other words... its not the tools, but what you do with them (as we've all probably heard before:lol::blush:).

As much as I love Strauss and Wagner... neither surpasses Bach: QUOTE]

Well yes, of course, but great music is a very personal pursuit and each will find in it that with which they identify. In the case of the Strauss piece posted, this music has a great emotional meaning for someone who spent much of his youth in Germany, immersing himself in German history, the language and the people. For me it's not just a piece of music to be enjoyed like any other, it is Germany and, while many may plump for Bach, to my mind Richard Strauss is the summation of German genius .

mortalterror

06-23-2013, 03:30 PM

You forgot to include Caravaggio and Van Dyck in the baroque. Plus, a few of those painters you list as Renaissance artists are Mannerists (Titian, Veronese).

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 05:43 PM

Titian and Veronese are most certainly NOT Mannerists. Mannerism, which was born as a reaction to the Renaissance following the sack of Rome, had very little impact on the art of Venice. Of the major Venetian painters of the period the ones most impacted by Mannerism were Tintoretto and his follower, El Greco. The only paintings by Titian that suggest the least influence of Mannerism were a series of ceiling paintings that show the impact of Michelangelo:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_titiaan_abraham_izaak_grt_zps8423dc8c.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/titiaan_abraham_izaak_grt_zps8423dc8c.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_cain-and-abel-1544_zpsb0ba5ac9.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/cain-and-abel-1544_zpsb0ba5ac9.jpg.html)

While these painting show the unexpected point of view common to Mannerism, neither the anatomy nor the color exhibit the sort of exaggerations common to Mannerism.

The same is true of Veronese:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Veronese_Allegory-of-WisdomStrength_zpsb700070d.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/Veronese_Allegory-of-WisdomStrength_zpsb700070d.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Veronese_Persee-Andromede_Rennes400_zps6c8e49c9.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/Veronese_Persee-Andromede_Rennes400_zps6c8e49c9.jpg.html)

Veronese's paintings show a clarity and simplicity of form, a clarity of narrative, a naturalism of pose, expression, anatomy and color, a solid clarity of space... all key elements of the Renaissance.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_Angelo_Bronzino_001_zpsccc22158.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/Angelo_Bronzino_001_zpsccc22158.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_RossoFiorentino2_zps0876199f.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/RossoFiorentino2_zps0876199f.jpg.html)

Looking at Bronzino and Rosso Fiorentino... key figures in the development of Mannerism we see a confusion of form and narrative (especially in Bronzino), a gross exaggeration of anatomy, artifice of pose, a central void, a confusion of space, etc... all key elements of Mannerism.

As for the Baroque... yes, Caravaggio is an inexcusable omission. Van Dyck? A brilliant painter... but I don't know if I'd place him on the same level as the others. If I did... I'd have to add Fra Angelico, Fra Filippo Lippi, Piero della Francesca, Botticelli, Brughel and Bosch (who I somehow forgot), Rogier van der Weyden, Hans Holbein, Correggio, Simone Martini, and a number of others for the Renaissance.

mortalterror

06-23-2013, 07:07 PM

I was thinking of Mannerism in terms of it's time period 1520-1580 and you were thinking of it as a style distinct from the High Renaissance masters. True, Veronese and Titian aren't Mannerists, but they don't quite belong to the High Renaissance like Michelangelo, Leonardo, and Raphael either. If you want to split hairs upon it and define them along stylistic lines they should be classed apart as the Venetian school.

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 07:47 PM

There are definitely distinct differences between the various regional schools: the Roman/Florentine, the Venetian, the Sienese, the German, the French, the Flemish/Netherlandish. I remember that there were students who struggled in school to recognize that this was Renaissance art:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_raphael_school_of_athens_zpsf9587e30.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/raphael_school_of_athens_zpsf9587e30.jpg.html)

... but was this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_977px-Rogier_van_der_Weyden_016_zpsceec2788.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/977px-Rogier_van_der_Weyden_016_zpsceec2788.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_ANGELICO_Fra_Annunciation_zpsa27436ea.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/ANGELICO_Fra_Annunciation_zpsa27436ea.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_proverbs-2_zpse2725f71.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/proverbs-2_zpse2725f71.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_raphael54-2.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/raphael54-2.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_libyan2-1.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/libyan2-1.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_pieta_zps86640942.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/pieta_zps86640942.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_september_zps5d9eceb3.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/september_zps5d9eceb3.jpg.html)

... and this:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_titian_danae_zpsbba827a4.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/titian_danae_zpsbba827a4.jpg.html)

An incredibly diverse period.

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 07:54 PM

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mmKPZoS0L._SX300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510mzOAlF5L._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GC22GE9WL._SX300_.jpg

All three recordings are fabulous. The Eleanor Steber (1914-1990) recordings of Strauss' opera extracts... and the Four Last Songs... were recorded here in my hometown. The quality of these live recordings is quite impressive. Seriously Beim Schlafengehen and Im Abendrot sent chills down my spine... and judging by the ovation following the performance, I am not alone in my response. Emil might know more of Steber as she was closer to his generation :biggrin5:... a great singer and also a real beauty in the old Hollywood style:

http://www.paulahollinsdesigns.com/images/Ephemera/SteberEleanorAPhotoS_2.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ptreDqCJL.jpg

http://marcalaninnes.yolasite.com/resources/steber.jpg

stlukesguild

06-23-2013, 08:52 PM

Well yes, of course, but great music is a very personal pursuit and each will find in it that with which they identify. In the case of the Strauss piece posted, this music has a great emotional meaning for someone who spent much of his youth in Germany, immersing himself in German history, the language and the people. For me it's not just a piece of music to be enjoyed like any other, it is Germany and, while many may plump for Bach, to my mind Richard Strauss is the summation of German genius .

A great many might choose this as a more apt summation of Germany... and German history of the 20th century:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0PpTPvbr-4

Emil Miller

06-24-2013, 04:03 AM

[QUOTE=stlukesguild;1225449]Well yes, of course, but great music is a very personal pursuit and each will find in it that with which they identify. In the case of the Strauss piece posted, this music has a great emotional meaning for someone who spent much of his youth in Germany, immersing himself in German history, the language and the people. For me it's not just a piece of music to be enjoyed like any other, it is Germany and, while many may plump for Bach, to my mind Richard Strauss is the summation of German genius .

A great many might choose this as a more apt summation of Germany... and German history of the 20th century:

They might but they would be wrong, for history doesn't stop and, economically, Germany is once again the master of Europe. As for the 20th century, the roots of what happened are easily traced back to the development of Frederick the Great's Prussia, Napoleon Bonaparte's Confederation of the Rhine and Bismark's unification of the German nation. For anyone who watched the rise of the German economy, while his own sank beneath a wave of wishfull thinking, Messrs Adenauer and Erhard must rank as the two outstanding statesmen of the post-war period.

Emil Miller

06-28-2013, 03:36 PM

Last night I saw this conductor and violinist play the Tchaikovsky violin concerto in London with the Philharmonia although here they are in Russia with the St Petersburg orchestra in a fabulous performance.

http://youtu.be/GAkw_Wi4yIo

Also on the programme was the same composer's Francesca da Rimini but here it's another Russian orchestra and conductor in the last couple of minutes of the work. If you thought Leonard Bernstein was an energetic performer just watch this guy.

http://youtu.be/rqhhk4iBO2k

stlukesguild

06-29-2013, 07:38 PM

Neely and Emil... I'm going to be interested in your responses to the desert island thread:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?75643-The-Desert-Island-Expanded-Version

Emil Miller

06-30-2013, 01:42 PM

Neely and Emil... I'm going to be interested in your responses to the desert island thread:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?75643-The-Desert-Island-Expanded-Version

Yes I saw the post but haven't got round to making the selections. Anyhow, I would be prepared to bet that Woody Allen will feature in Neely's film choices and that Mozart will be in his music selection. As for the literary choices, I'm fairly confident the Pedigree Mum will not feature.

Darcy88

07-06-2013, 02:18 AM

Wagner's Das Rheingold and Mozart's Requiem in D minor, been playing them a lot recently. My two favourite composers though Wagner is my number one. Who influenced Wagner? I am only familiar with a handful of major composers and the closest to Wagner's sound in my opinion is Beethoven.

Lokasenna

07-06-2013, 06:10 AM

Went to Opera North's much-acclaimed production of Siegfried the other night - a truly astonishing experience.

Anyone else been listening to the 1955 Keilberth Bayreuth recording of the Ring? (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Der-Ring-Nibelungen-Keilberth-14cd/dp/B000XTCBWS/ref=sr_1_47?ie=UTF8&qid=1373105221&sr=8-47&keywords=Wagner+Ring). I've been listening to bits of a friend's set (can't afford it myself!) - it really is astounding. Why don't we have singers like that anymore?

prendrelemick

07-12-2013, 05:27 PM

Listening to Ralph Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony from the Royal Albert Hall on BBC 2 tonight. Beautiful sounds washing over me.

Very English. I wonder how he is thought of in other countries.

stlukesguild

07-12-2013, 10:43 PM

Oops duplicate. Typing from iPhone.

stlukesguild

07-12-2013, 10:44 PM

Wagner was admittedly influenced by Beethoven... especially by the 9th Symphony. Carl Maria Von Weber set the example of the leitmotif and this was further developed by Berlioz. Berlioz also was a likely inspiration with regard to the use of grandiose orchestration and theatrical bombast. Like most artists, Wagner admired and was influenced by any number of his predecessors who may not seem immediately obvious. Bach's use of counterpoint, Gluck's and Mozart's development of German opera... we're all major sources of inspiration. Even Meyerbeer and Medelssohn, who he later repudiated, were influential upon his development.

prendrelemick

07-13-2013, 05:22 AM

Emil Miller

07-13-2013, 08:32 AM

Listening to Ralph Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony from the Royal Albert Hall on BBC 2 tonight. Beautiful sounds washing over me.

Very English. I wonder how he is thought of in other countries.

As with Frederick Delius, Ralph Vaughan Williams is not a composer who is often played abroad but the 'Englishness' of his music
is very noticeable to his fellow countrymen.
Enjoying the unusually glorious weather we are currently having, I spent yesterday walking from Oxted in Surrey to Sevenoaks in Kent
and I have never seen the English countryside looking so beautiful. While I was sitting on a stile looking out on the vast landscape
towards 'blue remembered hills' this music inevitably came to mind:

http://youtu.be/PJRlqWMTl5o

stlukesguild

07-13-2013, 11:31 PM

Just got back from my older daughter's wedding on the beach in the Outer Banks, North Carolina:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_0997_zpsf776cf60.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_0997_zpsf776cf60.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_1151_zps8829ef72.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_1151_zps8829ef72.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_2627_zpsd8dc4ee9.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_2627_zpsd8dc4ee9.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_2635_zpsebcce95e.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_2635_zpsebcce95e.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_2638_zpse18dba6d.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_2638_zpse18dba6d.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/th_IMG_1578_zps36626f25.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/IMG_1578_zps36626f25.jpg.html)

After a good 600-700 mile drive back home we decided to stretch the vacation out to one more day... heading out to our favorite Mexican restaurant and two or three Margaritas each. Now I'm sitting with a glass of Tequilla listening to some real roots American "classic" bluegrass: Hank Williams!:cheers2:

Lykren

08-04-2013, 08:37 PM

Just got out of the Music Academy of the West's production of The Magic Flute. It was wonderful!

prendrelemick

09-07-2013, 03:30 PM

Listening to more Vaughan Williams tonight from the Albert Hall - The Lark Ascending- played by Nigel Kennedy. Spellbinding.

Emil Miller

09-27-2013, 04:11 PM

I like to play this piece myself but listening to this I wonder why I bother. It's absolutely sublime and plays down the Sturm und Drang of the middle section to give a seamless stream of beauty.

http://youtu.be/Bbje2CU9Ltw

LitNetIsGreat

10-16-2013, 07:15 PM

stlukesguild

10-16-2013, 09:28 PM

As a fan of both "Classical" and Jazz I quite love a number of these crossovers. I've owned Jacques Loussier's Goldberg Variations for years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvIMAQKi4kc

Of course there has long been a melding of Classical and Jazz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRqU98b0HZA&ytsession=cT78eKTJuNdSGwMtbcZePBh8Sigw0HcL0XD6slm0 m4ttqiAyaoyqOYQL1yDGiNqJlNjJewLUW7AejC6EptEZPSvs_g oAgDVYihAYtR3rVa7yZFG3kH2gD19jzTcntdM7MOC1YEt6At_x b9Nh05QyNfb2THzXbQXm6m1phv7o4XEmEBrr0aw2KDFixoe7KL fYOELRDs3-MSpIIPnpwHQTu5gRMJqaxm5Y3FCOOn-AseXll-Dk-GPIEe1tere7kjuIJSf3mauJg9dmLwHBO_Mq59PApX8IcKJKfK7 oqe4o0Bw_2WQW0K-IxvhMiiZSp8Uv8Ke2-tPazWaXDDpHrR2dHvlWOx7yAjGFq1D1EdUVoeqzjKepJXHOfbi QXRpIyKAmVlbjEQRAEooioYNoqZtIVzcxo9UnQDpmXNyniFl_Y wcwZKlRHLwCmv-7sFCkvjMGHYhhg5D_1QTWuqQgj0KdUyRiXku3NypL7wJSJEImz spXqqmx6TkHG85Tv4BXQkusqf7qYJ6Px3IYG9UlQVwmFBpcIyv pBex9oG7vc-1Cj73Bp4Px4tjzZYxJWgB9De7mrdQTJXmfYzqnutWjGFdRN_UT L_-G8MNWo6QO3O54af1dfYLUzDuzPNdklA0CXvqOW9P4moAQ86t2i 21vZE7TC2Iy8SLqHcfwjsQavonofZJq_77ivmJGBeVV-abb3goVI63aNxOkDMe5fpBskmh3rQQxK_WSBDBC1sQmg9k-VZEAreVAPQ2DqOJo0NcpRB4aR4RhiX6E1bKbL0nHOUJMBMtwzk Z3slrPblXOkVBsHOzTN4AzyzIf9p5ce6eIQgielqcJKcaEv5LK _gC_0NwaYrOMA0H1UMFw0dPFm6HjfU09iPtscK62pNEul2JZPu Re0DAYRfSoaIGljgxDoelBipt-EUAL3D9M6r_DjQmrd3nrc3jIGUVR1P4s6OXoacGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tGOFEgDzug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRDMKOMsyQ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFHdRkeEnpM

And of course as we start to get Classical Music in South America we get other popular music influences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-93DqhKa8c

Of course some composers... like Ravel and Debussy internalized the influences from Jazz and other non-Classical sources to the point that such influences are less obvious.

The influence was a two-way street, with many Jazz composers building upon Classical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYEl4EaCPJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kSmLTmS1xI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c51puHTj7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH3GSrCmzC8

And then there are Keith Jarrett's brilliant improvisations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmqbzZxVJ-0

Jarrett, like Benny Goodman before him, was a brilliant performer of Jazz as well as Classical. He was especially intrigued by the improvisational nature of the Baroque. Baroque music was often scored to allow for live improvisations of the performers (ie. Bach's 3rd Brandenburg Concerto). Jarrett's best works, in the opinions of many, are his live recordings where the music was almost wholly improvised... often with elements blurring Classical and Jazz.

A truly fascinating hybrid was developed by the group La Venexiana. Struck by the almost jazz-like aspects of some of Monteverdi's music from a collection known as Scherzi Musicali they pushed this element:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MOcUwHjS_4

They then took this even further with a disc entitled After M a pun on the title of the Jazz Classic, After Midnight and "After Monteverdi":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83WpdINleE

Then we have contemporary composers such as Anouar Brahem whose music straddles the line between French Modern classical (Debussy, Ravel, Satie, etc...) Jazz, French folk music, and Middle-Eastern influences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ud9LX8C09c

And what of Osvaldo Golijov... the composer who combines elements of Western Classical, Latin-American music, Middle-Eastern, Hebrew, Spanish, and Pop? He can compose works like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gcTd_YoXkE

... a work that merges the classical aria with aspects of the Arab-Andalusian lament.

And then he turns around and offers a truly new idea of a musical "Passion" in honor of Bach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvTiWPV2da0

Emil Miller

10-17-2013, 03:43 AM

This has just popped up on the 'you might be interested' sort of thing on youtube. It's a Bach jazz thing. Not sure myself, as it is neither one or the other, I don't think it really works, but I thought I would share it anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x6jzKpqeuw

I am only 5 minutes into it though.

OK, I've got the 'jazz Bach bass solo' 11 minutes in and I've decided to go to bed...

The opening piece (Präludium Nr. 1 C-dur) is simply divine but while the jazz improvisation is all very clever, it feels like an unnecessary imposition on a great work. Loussier has been around for decades and had great success with his idea of using Bach's music in an updated form but one either takes it or leaves it according to individual temperament. Personally I have nothing against it as he is obviously a first rate pianist who knows his stuff but I don't attach much importance to it other than as an amusing diversion. I spent a good part of yesterday at the piano playing Bach and I wish I could play half as well as Loussier who would have made an excellent serious performer of Bach's keyboard music.

LitNetIsGreat

10-17-2013, 07:04 PM

Yes I like Bach of course and I like a lot of jazz, however put the two together, like here, and it just doesn't sound right to me. I would rather listen to the original sounds of each. Maybe if I listened to it much more I would be, but first thoughts are that I just don't like it. I'm not questioning their artistic ability, just that it sounds a little odd. I agree with Emil the opening part there is fantastic, like a modern blend, but the soloing stuff sounds a little pushed. I like beer and I like wine, but put the two in the same glass and I would be sceptical. I have not listened to all of those links though, I will do when I get around to it (currently chess study is taking up most of my free time.)

All the best.

Emil Miller

10-18-2013, 05:27 AM

Here's a particular favourite of mine:

http://youtu.be/Xgyz0XqDEEA

LitNetIsGreat

10-18-2013, 01:44 PM

Here's a particular favourite of mine:

http://youtu.be/Xgyz0XqDEEA

Brilliant performance.

stlukesguild

10-18-2013, 08:48 PM

Fleisher was... is a marvelous pianist. His performances of Beethoven's and Brahms' concertos with George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra remain a standard by which all others are judged. Sadly Fleisher lost the use of his right hand, due to a condition that was eventually diagnosed as focal dystonia. Fleisher commenced performing and recording the left-handed repertoire while searching for a cure for his condition. In addition, he undertook conducting during this time, serving at one time as Music Director of the Annapolis Symphony Orchestra in Maryland. In the early 21st century, Fleisher regained the use of his right hand through a combination of Rolfing and botox injections. Fleisher's recordings since regaining the use of his hand have garnered the highest accolades.

LitNetIsGreat

10-19-2013, 06:52 AM

Wow what a story. Obviously a very determined and positive character.

Emil Miller

10-20-2013, 05:27 AM

Wow what a story. Obviously a very determined and positive character.

The same thing happened to pianist Gary Graffman but he didn't recover and took over the Curtis Institute
to teach promising young players such as Yuja Wang.
I've just purchased a ticket for her next London appearance in Feb 2014 when she plays Rachmaninov's 3rd concerto.

Here's the little lady playing the Tchaikovsky No.1 in Finland.

http://youtu.be/Yue6Cb5OULM

Emil Miller

11-12-2013, 04:48 PM

Sitting here with a whiskey and dry listening to Ravel's first piano concerto played by Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli couldn't be better but I have taken up piano lessons again so that i am able to play the many pieces that currently elude me. My new teacher is a lady from Croatia who is a bit of a martinet but, with the way I play, that's what's needed. She has given me a transcription of Wagner's Pilgrims Chorus from Tannhäuser and here's how it should be played:

http://youtu.be/L_G7Q0DsP5w

stlukesguild

12-02-2013, 09:46 PM

Over the Thanksgiving break I was able... needed to... clean up my den/office/library. The most daunting task that faced me was needing to shelve something like 700 CDs that were stacked in precarious piles all throughout the room in no particular order whatsoever. It took me some 6 hours+ but once again I have my entire music collection shelved in proper order so that I can see what I have and rapidly find anything. Embarrassingly, during the process I found some 8 or 9 discs that were duplicates!:blush2: I also found myself "discovering" any number of discs I haven't heard in ages... or am wholly unfamiliar with. Having strictly curtailed new purchases as I set money aside for a needed second car, I've begun to spend a lot of time listening to what I already own. Admittedly, chamber music has long ranked low among my preferences which lean more toward vocal music (opera, choral, lieder, chanson, etc...), symphonic, concertos, and solo instrumental. Recently, however, I have set about to explore a lot of the chamber music in my library... including some truly marvelous music:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CTHNP0Q0L.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TNXzEkNCL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P814YgfiL._SY300_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KFM55E%2B5L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

chrisvia

12-18-2013, 03:22 PM

A couple years ago I had the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium for work. In my usual fashion, I planned the trip so as to have a day or two for exploration. During that time I happened upon the grandiose Sint-Baafskathedraal, just around the corner from my hotel (The Gent River Hotel):

9207

Within this amazing architectural structure is the beautiful Adoration of the Mystic Lamb altarpiece:

9208

Upcon inquiring about the construction of this organ, I was informed that a CD had recently been recorded, of Bach's work, played by a local Belgian on that very organ:

9209

So, without hesitation I paid the 25 Euros and walked out with my latest addition to my classical collection:

9210

It begins with BWV 564, Toccata, Adagio, & Fugue in C, which I have been stuck on for an hour or so now, having selected the repeat-one function and sat listening like an ascetic. That is, until I decided to share my wonderful afternoon listening with this forum.

P.S. If someone would like to share the trick to embedding the actual images in a post, as opposed to a link, I would be grateful.

stlukesguild

12-18-2013, 09:43 PM

If you are linking to an image online at another site (hotlinking) such as Amazon.com... you right click on the image, select "copy image URL", then go to LitNet and select the icon for loading pictures (denoted with red arrow):

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/LItnet_zpsc607f02f.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/LItnet_zpsc607f02f.jpg.html)

When the box opens select "From URL" and unselect: "Retrieve remote file and reference locally", then paste the image URL in the provided box and click OK.

If you wish to employ images saved to your own hard drive you need to upload these to an Image Host such as Photobucket (free). Once you have a Photobucket account you simply click "Upload" then "Choose photos and videos". This will allow you to browse through your files and select the image you want (be sure to reduce it to the size you want for posting). You then open the image on the site and click on the "Links to share this photo". Click either the code for URL if you want the full-size image or the IMGthumb which will give you a thumbnail image that when clicked will show the full-size image. Once you have selected these you just go to LitNet, right click, select "paste" and voila!. Once you get the hang of it, it only takes seconds.

By the way... I am probably the resident Bach fanatic here... but there are a number of classical music fans... most who haven't been posting as frequently as in the past... but these things happen in cycles from my experience. My favorite Bach organ piece is the great Passacaglia and Fugue in C-minor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtFMxFQrKc4

Lykren

12-22-2013, 11:52 PM

Emil Miller

12-23-2013, 05:03 AM

I went to Yuja Wang's performance of Rachmaninoff's Third at the Disney Center in LA on Thursday, and was rather disappointed. Not because of the quality of the performance, but because our seats were behind the orchestra, while the lid of the piano was opened, of course, to direct the sound toward where the majority of the audience was located – in front of the orchestra. Sadly, this muffled the sound of the piano for us in the back.

However, the orchestra was fantastic throughout, both in the Rachmaninoff and in Stravinsky's complex but lively and joyous Petrushka.

That must have been some disappointment. I have on a couple of occasions sat behind the orchestra at purely orchestral concerts and also found the sound enhanced by proximity to the musicians; also it's nice to see the conductor's face occasionally.
I'm going to see Wang play the same concerto in February with the London Symphony Orchestra; Petrushka is also the orchestral companion piece; of which she has made a celebrated recording of the piano score.

I take it that the orchestra was the Los Angeles Symphony Orch. that you saw.

stlukesguild

01-01-2014, 06:57 PM

The Holidays are commonly accompanied by music. What have you Classical Music lovers among us been listening to over the Holiday Season?

Right now I'm listening to Valery Gergiev's Nutcracker:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CMGGhHdYL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

In the wrong hands, Tchaikovsky's famous ballet can be reduced to sentimental schmaltz but Valery Gergiev unleashes a Nutcracker that is fiery, fierce, and performed at lightning speed (He fits the entire ballet on a single disc!). Gergiev seems to be a conductor who inspires love or hate. Personally, I love him. I don't think a single individual has done more for the revival of Russian music in the last couple of decades... and damn it! He "discovered" Anna Netrebko... which is enough to immortalize him in my esteem. :smilewinkgrin:

Lykren

01-01-2014, 08:00 PM

The Holidays are commonly accompanied by music. What have you Classical Music lovers among us been listening to over the Holiday Season?

I've been listening to Sviatoslav Richter's recording of the Well-Tempered Clavier, and am currently listening to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis for the first time.

stlukesguild

01-01-2014, 08:14 PM

I quite enjoy Richter's WTC... although it wouldn't be my first choice... a bit to Romantic for Bach IMO. A first listen to Missa Solemnis? Enjoy!

Lykren

01-01-2014, 08:23 PM

What's your favorite WTC, then? The only other one I've listened to is Gould's.

stlukesguild

01-01-2014, 09:15 PM

I just finished this stunning disc:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61OdZI0q1nL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Michael Praetorius was the son of a disciple of Martin Luther. As such, he became one of the greatest composers for the Lutheran Church... and one of J.S. Bach's greatest predecessors. This concert consists of Awaiting the Messiah: A Lutheran Advent Service and A Vespers Service for Christmas Day. The selections come from his voluminous Musae Sioniae and the Polyhymnia caduceatrix which collected literally more than a thousand of Praetorius' chorale and song arrangements. The Vespers Service for Christmas Day includes Praetorius' beloved Es ist ein Ros entsprungen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YxHeg01KV8

The work then ends with the other, equally well-known, In dulci Jubilo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3p6nAaOmyU

stlukesguild

01-01-2014, 09:28 PM

What's your favorite WTC, then? The only other one I've listened to is Gould's.

Gould is essential for almost all of Bach's keyboard works... although I quite love Ralph Kirkpatrick's performance of clavichord...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXgAAlmy_iA

Angela Hewitt's first performance of the WTC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKx7ePuIsi0

Where both Gould and Richter (for better or worse) inject much of their own personal... at times "quirky"... interpretations upon Bach... Hewitt strikes me as far more "transparent". What I am hearing seems like Bach and not "Gould's Bach" or "Richter's Bach".

Andras Schiff's recordings are also absolutely splendid... the recent second recording of the WTC has rapidly become seen as the recording to beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk8H5c_p0z4

Lykren

01-01-2014, 09:37 PM

I enjoyed Schiff's French Suites very much, I suppose I should look into his Well-Tempered Clavier as well. I actually had an opportunity to see him perform the English Suites here in southern California, but (tragically!) missed out.

chrisvia

01-02-2014, 03:42 PM

Emil Miller

01-02-2014, 05:50 PM

I usually listen to, at least, Handel's Messiah, but this year I was a bit more unconventional because I've recently become infatuated with Rachmaninoff's piano concerto no. 2. I listened to this almost exclusively during my vacation. But, beginning yesterday I've paired my nightly reading of Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain with Richard Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie.

Anybody who isn't a soulless dolt will respond to Rachmaninov's 2nd concerto, but The Magic Mountain and Eine Alpensinfonie are heady stuff conceived during the First World War. While Mann's masterepiece is an obvious literary landmark, music is open to interpretation and this performance is as near to heaven as mere mortals can hope to achieve this side of the grave:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ

Chance33

01-17-2014, 11:52 AM

I've always loved
You are Broken by Jorge de Oliveira
It's a more modern classical piece but I absolutely love the mix of piano and strings. It's an intricate song and absolutely beautiful and quite emotional too.

stlukesguild

01-17-2014, 11:14 PM

I did get around to Handel's Messiah... a week or so after Christmas. The version I chose was that by The Sixteen conducted by Harry Christophers.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tdSQUFtIL._SX300_.jpg

The Sixteen have been one of the leading ensembles performing performing classical vocal works... and their performance here only adds to their reputation. A truly marvelous recording.

Lykren

01-18-2014, 04:33 AM

I have a recording of Rostropovich and Richter playing Beethoven's cello sonatas, but it's a live recording and the quality doesn't seem too good. Can anyone tell me whether they did a studio recording as well?

stlukesguild

01-18-2014, 11:28 AM

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5e/e0/1759eb6709a00ac9ec481110.L._SY300_.jpg

I've yet to come around to these... then again, many critics have suggested that for whatever reason, Beethoven's cello sonatas were not among his best work. This is surprising considering the expressive potential of the cello. Both Bach and Brahms were far more successful with the instrument. I wonder if Beethoven's failing to achieve something really masterful with the cello is part of the reason that there was so little among the repertoire for the instrument... until the late 19th and 20 centuries?

LitNetIsGreat

02-04-2014, 08:40 PM

Lokasenna

02-05-2014, 05:04 AM

Chopin Nocturnes again, a good complete version available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V60USaluxGA

Essential listening when torrential rain is pouring at your windows (again) with candles lit and everyone else is asleep. Chess books on you lap optional. Beer a necessity.

You can never go wrong with Chopin, and the Noctures in particular are superb music for almost any situation.

Emil Miller

02-05-2014, 11:05 AM

Chopin Nocturnes again, a good complete version available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V60USaluxGA

Essential listening when torrential rain is pouring at your windows (again) with candles lit and everyone else is asleep. Chess books on you lap optional. Beer a necessity.

Great performance by Pollini with exquisite tone.
I was discussing Chopin with my piano teacher yesterday and she's going to do an arrangement of Chopin's 'Raindrop' prelude for me which, giving the ceaseless rain we've been having, seems more than a little appropriate.

stlukesguild

02-05-2014, 11:27 PM

Chopin's Nocturnes are surely among my favorite works. I have the iconic Rubinstein recording and the equally marvelous recording by Earl Wild... one of the most under-rated pianists due to his having recorded almost exclusively for a minor record label... yet his Rachmaninoff is absolutely ESSENTIAL!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tg0z%2BgwHL._SX300_.jpg

Returning to Chopin... I agree the Pollini is marvelous... so much so I'm tempted to pick it up... not merely for the Chopin... but to add some Pollini to my library... where he is sorely lacking.

LitNetIsGreat

02-06-2014, 08:20 PM

Wow great stuff. I have some Chopin's recordings but just stumbled on the Pollini on Youtube. The Rachmaninov sounds the next on the list.

Emil Miller

02-08-2014, 02:00 PM

Nobody, but nobody, tugs the heartstrings like Puccini.

http://youtu.be/y_ebmTkOtpQ

Emil Miller

03-02-2014, 04:28 PM

These broadcasts by Bernstein are priceless for those who think they don't like 'classical' music.
They show exactly how it's put together and, using the first movement of Brahms 4th Symphony,
also what a musical genius Brahms was.

http://youtu.be/wXo2Ab_KFsE

http://youtu.be/0CzB63yCg0c

http://youtu.be/Y9YTjFFyVQk

http://youtu.be/W66wrC3wVCo

http://youtu.be/rHLkkVFhwwU

Lykren

03-10-2014, 05:12 PM

Speaking of Brahms...

My father's friend, who plays violin in the Santa Barbara Symphony, will be connecting me with her son, who plays cello, and a pianist, and we will play the Brahms Clarinet trio, with me on clarinet. I am very excited! It's a wonderful piece, and I haven't played classical music seriously, or indeed played with anyone but myself, for quite some time.

LitNetIsGreat

03-12-2014, 04:45 PM

Nobody, but nobody, tugs the heartstrings like Puccini.

http://youtu.be/y_ebmTkOtpQ

I can't listen to things like this without the need to reach for a glass of red wine. I don't know they just seem to go together. I've only got San Miguel and some ale in the fridge though.

Been reading a bit of Fry's (Stephen) second volume of his autobiography (and not yet out of Cambridge!). In it he talks about his passion for Wagner...amongst other things. Funny he only ever went to three lectures at university, instead he just cruised through it and had fun. Wagner's not something I have listened to really, but stuck some of this on in the background as I stare at my chess books and board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L44Ml8K_mDg

Emil Miller

03-13-2014, 06:55 AM

I can't listen to things like this without the need to reach for a glass of red wine. I don't know they just seem to go together. I've only got San Miguel and some ale in the fridge though.

Been reading a bit of Fry's (Stephen) second volume of his autobiography (and not yet out of Cambridge!). In it he talks about his passion for Wagner...amongst other things. Funny he only ever went to three lectures at university, instead he just cruised through it and had fun. Wagner's not something I have listened to really, but stuck some of this on in the background as I stare at my chess books and board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L44Ml8K_mDg

Well Neely, the fact that you have only San Miguel is almost a as tragic as Madame Butterfly itself: let me recommend a Moulin-a-Vent from Sainsbury's top range selection, a trifle more expensive but well worth the money. I doubt that Karajan would have been pleased that you are staring at chess books while he was conducting Wagner but, never mind, here's a piece of Wagner that will set you up to get checkmate in three:

http://youtu.be/k5bhKktF1FE

Lykren

03-14-2014, 06:05 PM

Emil Miller

03-15-2014, 04:31 AM

I just got out of a masterclass instructed by Yo-Yo Ma. He is a very entertaining presence whether or not he is playing the cello, but when, as the first group got ready to perform he walked down the aisle to listen from the audience's perspective, a lady behind me half-whispered, "Oh my god, he's real!"

I wasn't sure whether I was amused at the lady's willingness to sound like a fool, or disgusted at the implied hero-worship, which I feel is totally unnecessary when it comes to appreciating the art of music. What say you?

it is true that great performers do arouse hero worship in their students, not to mention the general public. This is understandable as they are the conduit through which the music of the masters is transmitted at its highest level.

LitNetIsGreat

03-28-2014, 08:26 PM

Some more Chopin. A slower interpretation it seems from this random find, Brigitte Engerer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdimyyD-ZQk

Not sure if I prefer this yet or not.

MorpheusSandman

04-08-2014, 02:00 PM

While I love Pollini as a pianist, I am not fond of his Chopin for the most part as I find a bit too mechanical (the one exception are the Etudes), just as I find Rubinstein's Chopin a bit too drawing-room (especially in the more expressive pieces; though I think he's a good fit with the pieces more dance-inspired). For Chopin my two go-tos are Arrau for the darker, emotional pieces; Cortot for lyricism; Zimmerman for the longer, expressive pieces; and Ohlsson for an overall "reference" (he's solid on everything).

prendrelemick

04-22-2014, 04:14 AM

Lokasenna

04-22-2014, 05:00 AM

Ralph Vaughan Williams' Lark Ascending has been voted the country's favourite piece of classical music. (according to Classic FM listeners, that is).

Again. It's always being voted number one. That said, it is a gorgeous piece - though there is that one bizarre section where it goes a little mad, and which I always cannot help but think of as 'The Lark Machine-Gunned'...

I think English music is generally less appreciated internationally. It's almost treated as a joke, I think, by some people. I've got a Swiss friend who just loves to wind me up about the poor quality of English music, despite never having actually listened to any VW, Elgar, Britten, Purcell or Byrd.

I know in the past I've also had an amicable barney with our own St Luke's over that book he often recommends to people (Classical Music: The 50 Greatest Composers and Their 1,000 Greatest Works), which I think has a distinctly anti-British bias. Only VW makes the top 50, and pretty near the bottom - surely Britten and (particularly) Elgar should make anyone's top 50, or is Elgar really the inferior of Borodin and Couperin?

Emil Miller

04-22-2014, 07:48 AM

I think it would be fair to say that English music is parochial but there are individual works that are, nevertheless, brilliantly composed.
It's understandable that the idiom is intensely English and perhaps doesn't travel well but surely something like Nimrod from the Enigma Variations (inspired by a German friend of the composer) is as universal as any other composition.

mal4mac

04-22-2014, 12:00 PM

Ralph Vaughan Williams' Lark Ascending has been voted the country's favourite piece of classical music. (according to Classic FM listeners, that is).

We English dilettantes love him. All of his stuff seems to hit a chord with our English senseabilities- it sounds like nostalgia - an invocation of a long lost England that probably never really existed. I suspect he is hardly known Internationally.

And the equally wonderful Tallis Fantasia at number 3 - Simon Rattle had this as the centrepiece of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra's Philharmonie 50th anniversary last October, played on radio 3 last week. You might still catch it on BBC iPlayer if you want a real treat...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b040hxj7

"Perhaps because of Vaughan-Williams’s success in breaking free of the German influence, it’s often said that his music is so English that it could not possibly appeal outside these shores. Strange to realise, then, that there are more performances of his symphonies in Germany than in England."

http://www.classicfm.com/composers/vaughan-williams/guides/vaughan-williams-re-assessed/

I'm biased, but has anyone composed more beautiful music? Certainly I'd admit that Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninov, and a few others, have written music as beautiful, but I think he's up there with these greats. Anyone outside England agree with this?

MorpheusSandman

04-22-2014, 12:29 PM

Ralph Vaughan Williams' Lark Ascending has been voted the country's favourite piece of classical music. (according to Classic FM listeners, that is).That list was utterly bizarre. There were tons of film and video game soundtracks on it. :ack2:

I think English music is generally less appreciated internationally. It's almost treated as a joke, I think, by some people. I've got a Swiss friend who just loves to wind me up about the poor quality of English music, despite never having actually listened to any VW, Elgar, Britten, Purcell or Byrd.I think the one genuinely, almost indisputably, great English composer was Purcell, who is absolutely sublime and grossly underrated. The others, I think, are more variable in quality. Britten, VW, Elgar, and Byrd all have some really, really good music, but I don't think they were consistently great enough to list them in the top tier of great composers.

prendrelemick

04-22-2014, 06:18 PM

There's always Gustav Holst.

stlukesguild

04-22-2014, 09:15 PM

I think English music is generally less appreciated internationally. It's almost treated as a joke, I think, by some people. I've got a Swiss friend who just loves to wind me up about the poor quality of English music, despite never having actually listened to any VW, Elgar, Britten, Purcell or Byrd.

I think in part England's music pales beside its literary achievements. I also think that there is this unfortunate gap between Purcell and the great British contributions to early music...

William Byrd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZSB0WTyIrg

Thomas Tallis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT-ZAAi4UQQ

John Dowland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7vLOjzG4no

Henry Purcell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IhWTB2Y_w8

Then there are but a few truly interesting figures until the late 19th & 20th centuries.

Personally, I quite like John Field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYqOOY4pTNE

His Nocturnes were the model upon which Chopin would produce his masterworks.

I actually have a sizable collection of British "classical" music... more, I suspect, than by Americans. I certainly love Ralph Vaughan-Williams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd3nWm2PitI

But I'm probably equally fond of Delius:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeaAhYluOc

I've never really warmed to Elgar... but this is indisputably beautiful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqvOVGCt5lw

But there are others... lesser known... but brilliant at times...

Arnold Bax:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixF5f2cqIKo

Ernest J. Moeran:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebP_ehR6oLE

Herbert Howells:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ozrtxC4TmE

Britten is undoubtedly a fairly major figure... Top 50?... That's always open to debate. I think Britten's "weakness" as far as popularity... beside his embrace of certain Modernist atonalities... is the fact that his strongest works are predominantly vocal works... especially operas. Still I quite love his Cello Sonatas inspired by Shostakovitch and Rostropovich.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_FyQPsILnU

I know in the past I've also had an amicable barney with our own St Luke's over that book he often recommends to people (Classical Music: The 50 Greatest Composers and Their 1,000 Greatest Works), which I think has a distinctly anti-British bias.

Goulding's book could be argued to have an even greater anti-American bias as not a single American makes the list. His list was actually quite objective in that he, the author admittedly knew little of classical music, and based his list upon statistics (how many pieces by each composer were played on the major classical music radio stations in a year, number of recordings of a given composer, record sales, length of entries of each composer in major texts on the history of classical music.). What we need to remember is that the world of "Classical Music" spans a period from approximately A.D. 1000- until the present. There are dozens of major composers from the Middle Ages, as many again from the Renaissance, quite a bit more still from the Baroque and the Classical Era... and then things really take off during the Romantic/Post-Romantic/Modern era.

...is Elgar really the inferior of Borodin and Couperin

Perhaps not... but he probably is less important than J.S. Bach, C.P.E. Bach, W.A. Mozart, L.v. Beethoven, Joseph Haydn, G.F. Handel, Monteverdi, Wagner, Brahms, Debussy, Faure, Ravel, Richard Strauss, Mendelssohn, Mahler, Schubert, Schumann, Rameau, Gluck, Vivaldi, Alessandro & Domenico Scarlatti, Verdi, Puccini, Rossini, Donizetti, Boccherini, Shostakovitch, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Offenbach, Massenet, Perotin, Leonine, Gesualdo, Dufay, Hildegard of Bingen, Bartok, Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber, Jan Dismas Zelenka, Hugo Wolf, Chopin, Liszt, Dvorak, Arcangelo Corelli, Purcell, Buxtehude, Vaughan-Williams, Mihaud, Poulenc, Bellini, Telemann, Sibelius, Grieg, Bruckner... and if we count the Modernists: Schoenberg, Berg, Webern.

My point is that it is quite easy to compile a list of 50+ major composers who quite honestly deserve such recognition. Whether Elgar deserves to be placed upon such a list is quite debatable.

I'm biased, but has anyone composed more beautiful music? Certainly I'd admit that Beethoven, Mozart, Rachmaninov, and a few others, have written music as beautiful, but I think he's up there with these greats.

Yep, you're biased. I love Vaughan Williams but I have no delusions of placing him alongside Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Handel, etc... The core of VW's oeuvre are his 9 symphonies... laden with beautiful music, no doubt, but certainly not as innovative or brilliant as the finer symphonies by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms, etc... Beyond this?

In the Fen Country
Norfolk Rhapsody
Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Fantasia on "Greensleeves"
The Lark Ascending
Five Mystical Songs
Fantasia on Christmas Carols
Dona nobis pacem
Hodie, a Christmas cantata

All counted you might get a full 10 or 12 CDs worth of music as VW's "essential" core works. You'll need more than that for Beethoven's piano sonatas, Haydn's major string quartets, or Mozart's 4 great operas.

prendrelemick

04-23-2014, 03:22 AM

I think St Luke's point about innovation is the key. The true greats brought something fresh that influenced and affected those who came after. Britten, VW, Elgar probably didn't do that.

Emil Miller

04-23-2014, 10:46 AM

My teacher, a conservatory trained pianist, is making a particular study of the Beethoven piano sonatas and she was showing me the complexity of a certain passage in the Waldstein. Clearly, there are few compositions in English piano or orchestral music that would match Beethoven's but one would have to be musically dead not to appreciate this Vaughan Williams piece.

http://youtu.be/S9x9RwMt0l0

Aere Perennius

04-23-2014, 04:18 PM

Yep, you're biased. I love Vaughan Williams but I have no delusions of placing him alongside Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Handel, etc... The core of VW's oeuvre are his 9 symphonies... laden with beautiful music, no doubt, but certainly not as innovative or brilliant as the finer symphonies by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms, etc... Beyond this?

We're all biased, silly boy. This is art and it never ceases to amaze how many propose that an opinion can be turned into a fact—as if taste was, in anyway, objective. Canons are but monuments that are either too old and sticky to rid ourselves of our parents tastes, or simply the generation's favorites as a rebellion to such. Even innovation and it's worth, influence and it's properties (all impossible to prove, even with acknowledgement), are but mere opinions when used in judging the "brilliance" or "quality" of an artwork.

So slow down before you start calling someone out for being biased as if you were not yourself.

LitNetIsGreat

05-12-2014, 08:00 PM

Wow, 4 1/2 hours of Mozart Violin Sonatas on one youtube video! That's got to be a more than decent youtube post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTEn6SRVAE4

stlukesguild

05-31-2014, 09:29 PM

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SwJ-g7olL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

This is a stunning performance (Charles Mackerras was THE "go-to" man for Leoš Janáček) of a stunningly beautiful opera... one that is rarely performed... and that I had never heard until now. I picked up this recording in hope of listening to it prior to attending the innovative performance of The Cunning Little Vixen by the Cleveland Orchestra:

http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/1314-concerts/1314-Classical/OPERA--THE-CUNNING-LITTLE-VIXEN-/

http://www.cleveland.com/musicdance/index.ssf/2014/05/cleveland_orchestras_cunning_l.html

Unfortunately, the performances came upon the end of the school year with all the added paperwork as well as retirement parties for several close co-workers.

Ah well... this recording will have to do... and it is quite brilliant... and hard to believe the entire opera was inspired by a comic strip!!!

I highly recommend this work... and this recording... for anyone fond of/with an interest in Eastern European music or opera.

mortalterror

05-31-2014, 11:28 PM

Stluke, I heard a lovely little ditty recently called Gaudete from 1582, and I'm not sure whether I should put it with my classical list or my folk music list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudete What do you think?

Here's the version I really like from folk rock band Steeleye Span
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDc2FD-vy8M

But there are others from more classically inclined groups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKWk6RzaiM

Anyway, it's got me looking at a bunch of polyphonal sacred music of the era. It sort of ticks some of the same boxes as Monteverdi's madrigals for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKPK3CINlWU

stlukesguild

06-01-2014, 01:25 AM

The term "classical music" is difficult to define considering that it essentially includes everything from this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdJSy9vXGNQ

to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87UE2GC5db0

to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6SDINpeTw

to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI

There is no defining style to "classical music". Quite honestly, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU

... has more in common with the lieder of Schumann, Schubert, and the mélodie of Faure and Debussy... has more in common with the tradition of Western Classical music than does Xenakis. Yet many within the world of classical music would argue that Xenakis represents modern/contemporary "classical" music, while Somewhere over the Rainbow is mere popular music.

And the dividing line can be even more blurred. Many would define this as "classical music":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRDMKOMsyQ4

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFHdRkeEnpM

but not this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGLpczTtnEM

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHJoS2gMx3Y

Ultimately, the term "classical music"... which was only first employed (outside of referring to the Classical Era of Mozart, Haydn, and Boccherini)... around the late 19th and early 20th century... in an attempt to differentiate "serious" music of the upper class elite from that of the masses is not a term intended to define a style (like Baroque, Romanticism, or Jazz) but rather a term intended as a value judgment. Many within the world of classical music, however, deny this notion because ultimately it would suggest that it is just possible that the finest songs by Hollywood songwriters, jazz, even "standards" of country, bluegrass, and pop may eventually be recognized as the "classical music" of our era as much... or more than the music of Stockhausen, Xenakis, and Philip Glass. They counter that "classical music" can be defined as music with a known composer that has been given a definitive form by said composer in the form of the score. This concept, however, clearly doesn't hold water. Baroque composers frequently employed improvisation... as much as jazz musicians... in their performances. Then there are examples of works such as Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition which is known more in its orchestral transcriptions by Rimsky-Korsakov and Ravel than in its original score for solo piano.

Older music... songs, dances, motets, dirges, etc... by unknown composers... "folk music" if you will... has commonly been accepted as a form of "classical music". Tunes such as Gaudete have often been collected in medieval and Renaissance song books and re-scored for multiple voices or even instrumentation. One need only think of Christmas carols that have been orchestrated for large Romantic-era orchestras.

There are any number of interesting blurrings of classical and popular music. I'm especially fond of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKzkbpIiuSs

Here we have John Potter, member of the Hilliard Ensemble, performing John Dowland's music with jazz-like improvisations... and then we have to consider that Dowland himself quite blurs the line between the traditional idea of "classical music" and popular music.

But lets go a little further and build on Monteverdi's famous Lamento della Ninfa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83WpdINleE

mal4mac

06-01-2014, 03:48 AM

That list was utterly bizarre. There were tons of film and video game soundtracks on it. :ack2:

Classic FM isn't aimed at the serious classical music lover, it's aimed at people wanting a change from Pop music on BBC Radio 1/2, but don't want to be challenged too much. Hence the film & game music. The game music appearing is intriguing, it shows that more young people are listening than I might have expected! Classic FM attracts a lot of Daily Mail readers who want to appear sophisticated, and feel that voting for this list is a worthwhile use of their time. Hence, I guess, the patriotic "little England" feel to the voting. (Not that I dislike Vaughan Williams - this shows Daily Mail readers have some taste - but gaining 1 & 3 spot is ridiculous!)

Those Brits who would say "ack" along with you are listening, mostly, to BBC Radio 3 :) I tend to flick between the two stations, I usually change to Radio 3 when film music or the too-well-known "smooth classic" pops up yet again. But I retreat from Radio 3 when something *too* challenging appears.

mal4mac

06-01-2014, 04:09 AM

Wow, 4 1/2 hours of Mozart Violin Sonatas on one youtube video! That's got to be a more than decent youtube post...

Good, but not Perlman/Barenboim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqbZTBAlOY

That box set is one of the highlights of my life, with at least eight sonatas, for me, up there with VW's "lark".

The points being made about several composers beating VW for variety, volume, and innovation are, I think, well made.

And how on Earth could you choose between this Mozart Sonata and Lark? It's like choosing between ice cream and strawberries! Both number 1 (along with a hundred other delicacies...)

Why is there an obsession with lists in British pop culture?

Lokasenna

06-01-2014, 04:43 AM

Emil Miller

06-01-2014, 07:17 AM

I am always uncomfortable with the use of 'classical music' as a catch all expression for that which exists outside the genre of popular music.
I prefer to think in terms of the great eras of mucial development such as the Baroque, Classical, and Romantic, but even here the looseness of the terminology is open to misinterpretation.
Back in the dim mists of time ( the 1970s to be exact ) I was given an LP of music by a German friend. It was a series of pieces by a contemporary French composer called Saint Preux and was a tuneful if not a particularly distinguished composition. I had forgotten about it until recently when my piano teacher drew my attention to an Ave Maria attributed to the early Baroque composer Giulio Caccinni; whom I had never heard of. The melodic structure immediately reminded me of Saint Preux and I said it sounded very much like seventies French music, such as was used as a background to various French films of the period, and I couldn't see how anyone would think that it was a 16th century work.
On investigation I discovered that it wasn't French but composed by a Russian and subsequently passed off as Caccini's work. Here's the story:

Ave Maria" is a popular and much recorded aria composed by Vladimir Vavilov around 1970. It is a musical hoax generally misattributed to Baroque composer Giulio Caccini. Vavilov himself published and recorded it on the Melodiya label with the ascription to "Anonymous" in 1972. It is believed that the work received its ascription to Giulio Caccini after Vavilov's death, by an organist Mark Shakhin (one of its performers on the mentioned "Melodiya" longplay), who gave the "newly discovered scores" to other musicians; then in an arrangement made by the organist Oleg Yanchenko for the recording by Irina Arkhipova in 1987, then the piece came to be famous worldwide.

http://youtu.be/zXehRR_ziBw

http://youtu.be/3hE-cxohDGY

stlukesguild

06-01-2014, 11:00 AM

Emil Miller

06-01-2014, 01:01 PM

I am always uncomfortable with the use of 'classical music' as a catch all expression for that which exists outside the genre of popular music.

How does one define "popular music"? Offenbach, Lehard, Strauss II etc... were all the "popular music" of their time. To a great extent, the same can be said of Mozart, Dowland, or many examples of medieval or Renaissance folk music ("Greensleeves"?).

Well much would depend on the definition of 'popular' which my dictionary gives as ....'pleasing to or esteemed by the general public or a specific group or an individual.'
So on that basis, some of the examples you have given might have appealed to the general public whilst others might have been popular with a specific group and others with individuals. But popular music in contemporary terms would refer almost exclusively to recordings of songs that are accessed electronically, rather than works from the musical periods I have mentioned, although there may be exceptions that underline the rule

Petrarch's Love

06-01-2014, 09:18 PM

I return to a forum after multiple years' absence, find a few posts on a thread mentioning popularity and classical music, and immediately make myself that person by posting this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFvQOc4xS2k

Seriously, though, I was having a conversation with a classical music appreciator just the other day in which I found myself arguing in favor of movie themes as probably one of the most productive and enduring forms of orchestral (or what we often lump under that unwieldy umbrella, "classical") music. Not only was I thinking of the now common "movie night" live performances of film scores that have now become common annual events for many orchestras, but of how the genre fits into a longer tradition, not only of music associated with Opera and Ballet (in both of which cases the music is an integral component directly linked with the words or movements being delivered on stage), but also of composers who wrote incidental music for the stage, including Beethoven's Coriolan and Egmont music, Grieg's Peer Gynt suite, Shubert's Rosamund music, Mendelssohn's Midsummer accompaniment, etc. Such music, like music for film is, as the designation suggests, "incidental," supposedly only there as an ornamentation to the spoken theatrical piece, and yet, of those mentioned above all of the plays but Midsummer and Peer Gynt have been largely forgotten as the motivating reason for the (originally much subordinate) musical composition, while the music itself has been incorporated separately into the cannon of classical music.

The questions of what incidental theatrical music is, and what its newer cousin the film score is do put some useful pressure on what is defined as "popular." Historically speaking, for example, we know a few of the ballads and tunes that were originally sung on the stage during some of Shakespeare's plays. When plays that were originally part of the popular culture become canonical, as in the case of Shakespeare, do the songs that were an integral part of it also attain some sort of canonical status? What if the tune is no longer popular but the plays still are (the reverse of Rosamund's fate in which the Schubert lives on without the play)? And what if one of the tunes Shakespeare fancied also got some attention from Robert Moreley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVSogD3IvS4 while another lapsed into Elizabethan obscurity?

Certainly one cannot imagine Star Wars being studied in the future without Williams' score. What are we missing when we watch certain silent films for which the original score was lost? What films might be more valued if we had the music, and which might be almost entirely forget-able without it? Where does a composer coming directly out of the late romantic style like Korngold place along the popular-classical spectrum, and does his association with a popular medium like the 1938 Adventures of Robinhood affect this? http://youtu.be/uT6dLPfSCL8
What of the recent Lord of the Rings soundtrack: http://youtu.be/1OvmsZ5-gYw ? Unlike Star Wars, I had to google the name of the composer for that one--Howard Shore--indicating that the music isn't garnering as much fame and popularity as an artistic production separate from the Peter Jackson's (no googling required) film, and yet I find it pleasant enough to listen to that I can see it branching off to stand on its own as a piece something like Bruch's Scottish Fantasy.

Come to that, how does a popular, mixed media work like a film blur the boundaries of genres created to describe stand alone musical performances. For example, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra has a "Night at the Movies" series that has encompassed everything from John Williams' Wagneresque Star Wars motifs to Henry Mancini's jazzy Pink Panther score, and a lot else beside harder still to place in a box.

Of course the most important question is whether or not St. Luke's will allow movie scores on his classical music thread. And, if that doesn't seem too big a stretch, my brother recently brought to my attention the fact that a number of classical orchestras nationwide have recently hosted performances of "classic" video game scores. So, the real question is whether, if I post the Pacman or Mario Brothers music to this thread I will be immediately exiled from these forums for another few years. I'll give it a try:

Mario Brothers: http://youtu.be/_9bB7r0M9kg
Pacman: http://youtu.be/3AEoXhRc8ws (warning: listening to more than 10 seconds may result in slightly incapacitated thinking skills, but the full 10 hours provided is probably some unconstitutional form of torture)

Perhaps I deserve exile. :p

stlukesguild

06-01-2014, 10:01 PM

Yes. I wholly agree that film scores share a commonality with opera, ballet, and incidental music... including Schubert's Rosamunde:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N7ltIYWdP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t0TIhKoUbY

There are certainly any number of brilliant musical moments in film scores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwf96OEaYBg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgF-rcHcPqE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al21Vtlsg4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWqKPWO5T4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAtvMRz4mAY

I think the problem with film scores as opposed to the other incidental music forms is that it is the film and not the music that sets the pace... and to an incredible degree. A composer may be directed to establish exactly 2 minutes and 12 seconds of intense, dramatic music, followed by exactly 23 seconds of a beautiful theme as the love interest in the film enters, followed by 17 seconds of a darker theme as the villain appears, etc... In many ways, the use of the motif places film music as an heir to Wagner... which shouldn't be surprising, considering all of Wagner's heirs, such as Korngold, who went into the business. If film music survives over the long-run (outside of the films themselves), I suspect it will take the form of the suite... with the strongest passages preserved and re-structured (and at times re-orchestrated) into a more coherent form... again, not unlike what we see with many ballets.

mortalterror

06-01-2014, 10:40 PM

Has there been a more popular orchestral score in the twenty-first century than Requiem For a Dream's Lux Aeterna by Clint Mansell?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVIRcnlRKF8

mal4mac

06-02-2014, 03:12 AM

Point taken on film music. I rather like Philip Glass' music for "The Hours":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvA7ZcsKFcQ

But I do find the choices made by Classic FM are often banal, perhaps because they are happy to churn out background music for car drivers, and films are full of undemanding background music...

Great point on ballet suites St. Luke, I tend to get bored listening to full ballets, but not the suites.

Walton made a good stab at producing suites from his film scores:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUt5ysms3sU

Incidental music for films and plays that has serious pretensions to become classical music, like Egmont & Star Wars, is usually in overture form - so it's really designed to be stand alone anyway! Such pieces are usually short, and not the best work of the composer, apart from Williams... and maybe Walton...

Emil Miller

06-02-2014, 04:28 AM

Film music is all too often a pastiche of the major composers' works, particularly in the orchestration, and while enjoyable on its own level it often doesn't stand up to any but the most indulgent musical examination. Philip Glass's music for The Hours is something of an exception as not all of it was composed for the film, and Glass's musical education included studying with Nadia Boulanger. It's ironic that William Walton's music may best be remembered for his film scores rather than Belshazzar's Feast or the viola concerto while his Crown Imperial march resembles a grandiloquent version of Elgar at his most 'nobilmente'.

http://youtu.be/2AKIFKwSSoE

prendrelemick

06-02-2014, 08:31 AM

Lokasenna

06-02-2014, 10:21 AM

We have Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings on our CD changer in the car. It's music, it's played by The Royal Philharmonic, it sounds like a classical piece, it can stand alone without the film perfectly well, so although it is definitely a pastiche I'd say it qualifies.

It's a nice score, though it always annoys me - all those bloody celtic harmonies wafting around where they have no place to be. I doubt Toller's would approve, given his desire to create a uniquely English mythology...

Some movie scores can be superb, to the extent that they can stand apart from the film and still be enjoyable - I knew the soundtrack from The Piano for years before I saw the film, and wonderful though the movie was I'm not quite sure it lived up to its superb music. One of my favourite lesser-known composers in Erich Korngold, whose movie scores rank among his best work - Robin Hood, The Seahawk, Captain Blood, and The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex suites are superb orchestral works that one can enjoy without ever having seen the films from which they are taken. The lines are further blurred in his wonderful Violin Concerto in D major, a work designed only for the concert hall that nevertheless samples and develops on some of the themes he used for his movie scores.

I also like John Williams, though he isn't in the same league...

Video game music is, slowly, getting more mainstream appeal. There was a minor brouhaha when several game themes made their way in the Classic FM Hall of Fame (which is a UK-based public poll of the 'best' 100 classical pieces), the station itself noting the controversy:

http://www.classicfm.com/hall-of-fame/2013/video-game-music-hall-fame-opinion/

The station subsequently released a programme that was intended to introduce non-gamers to video game music, which is summarised here: http://www.classicfm.com/discover/video-game-music/video-game-music-15-great-computer-game-scores.

Of course, there are still people who stick their noses in the air out of sheer bloodymindedness - in much the same way as they used to discount film music. I've been a keen gamer for many years, and part of that experience has been enjoying the music - indeed, it's probably what got me into classical music in the first place. And whilst I've not found anything in a video game to rival Wagner or Beethoven, there's plenty that I have enjoyed.

And, of course, some video game composers directly relate their music to earlier, more famous works - Nobuo Uematsu is probably most famous for this, but they all do it. Take his 'One-Winged Angel' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGe6ZsxqhQw) which riffs on Carmina Burana, or his 'Dancing Mad' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMFCM0SKbnY), a complicated and leitmotif heavy piece whose third movement of quotes Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor.

mortalterror

06-02-2014, 11:25 AM

I'm surprised in a discussion of great soundtrack music Ennio Morricone's scores to A Fistful of Dollars, The Good the Bad and the Ugly, or The Mission haven't been mentioned. The Ecstasy of Gold is so much fun to listen to!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0wPBYDQ6Y

Chariots of Fire by Vangelis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU
A Kaleidoscope of Mathematics by James Horner from the Beautiful Mind soundtrack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDEx6tolC6w
The Lawrence of Arabia theme by Maurice Jarre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdFwhhH2x7I

Let's not forget Lieutenant Kije by Prokofiev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hINfOSlMANc
or his Andrei Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible soundtracks

prendrelemick

06-03-2014, 05:22 PM

A Clockwork Orange is interesting, The Beethoven played on a tinny sounding electric organ without any classic orchestration. Is that Classical Music?

Emil Miller

06-04-2014, 04:35 AM

A Clockwork Orange is interesting, The Beethoven played on a tinny sounding electric organ without any classic orchestration. Is that Classical Music?

The music is, but the performance isn't.

Emil Miller

07-07-2014, 04:01 PM

I picked up on this collection by chance. They are all marvellous renditions but the Karajan Shostakovich N0.10 and the Bernstein N0.7 are nothing short of stupendous. Even if one doesn't appreciate the music, the playing almost defies belief. The Tilson Thomas Mahler 2nd is also an amazing performance.

http://youtu.be/wGVAaVOyzEA

stlukesguild

07-07-2014, 08:51 PM

Emil Miller

07-08-2014, 08:13 AM

Karajan's Shosty 10 has long been acknowledged as the recording by which all others are measured:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B%2B0QW0-kL._SY300_.jpg

Admittedly, I need to listen more to Shostakovitch' and Prokofiev's symphonies. I am far more familiar with other genre by each.

I have just checked it out in my Gramophone Good CD Guide and they say much the same. They also give pride of place to Bernstein's 7th; which reminds me of the feud that developed between Stokowski and Toscanini who were both desperate to conduct the first performance outside of Russia when the score was smuggled out of Leningrad during the German siege of the city in WWII. In the event, Toscanini won and made a celebrated recording with the NBC Symphony Orchestra for RCA.

tailor STATELY

07-08-2014, 09:15 AM

I am always uncomfortable with the use of 'classical music' as a catch all expression for that which exists outside the genre of popular music.

How does one define "popular music"? Offenbach, Lehard, Strauss II etc... were all the "popular music" of their time. To a great extent, the same can be said of Mozart, Dowland, or many examples of medieval or Renaissance folk music ("Greensleeves"?).

Page 99 discussion is in similitude to an article I just read this hour about the Classic Rock genre. Now bear with me, I'm not trying to interject Rock into your discussion in any way shape or form in comparison with Classical... whatever, but read the article and substitute your favorite niche of music and see if a similar algorithm isn't leading, manipulating, ... (je ne sais quoi) classical/popular music of your own bent: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-classic-rock-isnt-what-it-used-to-be/?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email .

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

Emil Miller

09-05-2014, 03:36 PM

Robert Schumann has, with Franz Schubert, occupied that somewhat neglected symphonic era between Beethoven and Brahms. Although there are a number of recorded sets of his four symphonies, they are not performed in concert as frequently as they deserve. If they don't measure up to Beethoven's symphonic output or that of Brahms, the very beginning of this video until 1.20 is as great as anything in German music. To my mind it's the greatness that Germany was, is and will always be:

http://youtu.be/S-UfnzBhS0s

stlukesguild

09-05-2014, 05:45 PM

Emil Miller

09-06-2014, 08:08 AM

Schumann's reputation has languished under the reputation of his having been poor at orchestration just as Brahms and Bruckner's have suffered from a reputation of being overly dense. A great performance of any of these works proves just how wrong these assessments were/are. George Szell was one of the greatest interpreters of Schumann. He took the attitude that Schumann was a great symphonic composer... wholly worthy of standing alongside Beethoven and Brahms... and his intensity and clarity has the listener in agreement. John Eliot Gardiner applied a great deal of research upon the instruments, orchestras, performing styles, and scores of Brahms and Schumann. His HIP (Historically Informed Performance) approach brings a greater transparency and muscularity to works that can sink under their own weight when weighed down with an excessively florid Romantic manner.

Good to see another admirer of Schumann.

It's interesting to note that Karajan was much in favour of Schumann's symphonies and recorded them with both the Berlin and Vienna symphony orchestras. I have the Berlin set but I also like Bernstein's characteristically exciting conducting in these works. Bernstein doesn't believe in slavishness to tempi and knows when to let the orchestra play. In this regard he was like Beecham who famously said of conducting: 'Do what you like but don't be boring.'

Emil Miller

09-12-2014, 06:35 PM

Here's part one of Rachmaninov's evocative Isle of the Dead, it was composed after he saw one of a number of paintings on this theme by Arnold Böcklin a Swiss painter. The one shown here is my favoured version but I saw another in the Kunstmuseum Basel when visiting Switzerland some years ago. A woman I had known for many years once lived in the road where the artist had a house and we visited it together. It was then an infants school and it was amusing to see pictures by the pupils pasted onto the windows.

http://youtu.be/N10YZ2Sk3Kg

Lykren

11-13-2014, 02:32 AM

Hey StLuke, thanks for bringing Angela Hewitt to my attention. I'm listening to her Goldberg Variations right now and it's incredible!

Emil Miller

11-26-2014, 07:50 AM

This rendering of Rachmaninov's Paganini variations is quite simply stunning. I have heard various versions of it over the years but never have I experienced a performance of such dynamism and commitment, where the orchestra brilliantly articulates the nuances of the piece and is so completely at one with the soloist. Exciting, thrilling, moving are but mere words that don't cover it; this item from the video's comments comes nearest.

snaaptaker
4 months ago

WOW!!! What a gutsy, fiery, almost savage, mad RUSSIAN performance! I loved it.
It's been awhile since I heard a competition contestant whom I thought deserved to win, but, IMO, he certainly did.
BRAVO!!!☺

http://youtu.be/AAu6BRWL8p8

stlukesguild

12-22-2014, 09:05 PM

There was a point... perhaps around 10 years ago... where I found that my library (I'm talking books here) had reached a sort of saturation point and I found myself rarely purchasing new books... or rather books by authors who were new to me, or books by authors well-known to me that I had yet to have read. At this point I began to find that a good majority of my purchases involved obtaining better... or alternative editions of works I already owned: new translations, well made often hard-covered quality editions of favorite, dog-eared volumes.

I find that over the last year, my approach to purchasing music has headed in a similar direction. The number of recordings of music that is wholly "new" to me has greatly dwindled. Instead, I am focused upon better productions and alternative recordings of the music that is most beloved by me. Over the last year, the number of recordings I own of Mozart's Magic Flute has increased to more than 10... while I have more than 5... often closer to 8... recordings of most of his other major operas (Don Giovanni, Le nozze di Figaro, Cosi fan tutte, etc...). Back in October I picked up this set of Wagner's Ring cycle:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71qMmu73yeL._SX355_.jpg

This set... in a hard-box with each of the four operas in their own hard-box... comes complete with full librettos and illustrated books. It features a marvelous cast (Jessye Norman, Lucia Popp, Peter Schreier, Kurt Moll, Cheryl Studer, Siegfried Jerusalem, and more...) and has been critically acclaimed as being among the finest productions/performances of the Ring. So far I have listened to Das Rheingold and must agree it is a worthy recording... and it was had for $20 US!!!

I toyed with the idea of purchasing this set:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91Rt-kJEYhL._SX425_.jpg

It features all of Maria Callas' studio recordings... brilliantly remastered... and presented with their original covers and a hard-bound book. Unfortunately, I found I just couldn't justify the $200 price right now at the holidays... especially when I'll be shelling out a good chunk for a trip to NYC. I did, however, pick up a number of the individual opera recordings... most of which go for around $9.50 US...

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/913voU86aPL._SY355_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91b1JxU%2BbZL._SY355_.jpg

http://a2.mzstatic.com/eu/r30/Music/v4/80/60/da/8060da51-95f4-ee46-0951-d8a257303487/cover326x326.jpeg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91K12bM6NgL._SY355_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91OLgTzBAoL._SY450_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91K3uDjBejL._SY450_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91T1zZklzwL._SX466_.jpg

I'll probably pick up the majority of these over time. It may cost a bit more... even considering that I probably won't get all the various recital discs... but it won't be such a big bite at once... especially as I'm getting other recordings as well:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Uh-f6-RoL._SY450_.jpg

I have most of these... but Szell is worth a good box set... especially for a little over $8 US.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713ecYWqPOL._SX466_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5166f9S%2BBbL._SY450_.jpg

I should be ashamed of having so little by Heifetz... in spite of collecting box sets by any number of other great violinists of last century.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81zZ6M%2BvLsL._SY450_.jpg

This set replaces 4 two-disc sets of Debussy and Ravel by Martinon. I've been listening to it for a week now. Spectacular! I'll probably "gift" the 2-disc sets that this replaces to a classical music-loving friend. I'll do the same with the individual Szell/Beethoven discs.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/714rJbEZ2kL._SY450_.jpg

This just arrived today. For quite some time I've sworn by Karajan's 1963 Beethoven cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic. I knew of his later recordings from the 70s and 80s... but I wasn't even aware of the existence of this set with the Philharmonia. So far I've listened to the 3rd. Good stuff. Karajan was at the top of his game in the 50s.

Many of the box sets that I have purchased involve alternative recordings of major works by composers who are among my favorites... but who I never set about listening to in alternative recordings... for whatever reason. Since Summer I picked up a couple of sets of Mahler:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713YKOzaAjL._SY450_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71CRMs4927L._SY450_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81V7kh8lGnL._SX450_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81%2BqObxyF0L._SY450_.jpg

http://a1.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music4/v4/87/6a/1a/876a1a09-ab02-9a94-8f53-5e4379cd18b2/cover326x326.jpeg

For far too long I underestimated Sibelius... but repeated listenings to these two sets has changed that. I especially love the Barbirolli set.