Big Brother and Goldstein = God and Satin?

[truedatt]

Just rereading the book I'm on the two minutes hate part were it first explains Goldstine, this struck me as awful similar to the biblical story of saitin falling fom the grases of god. Granted I'm in no scence religous but the stories seem similar to me. Take it wear you want to. To be honest I dont realy know if its relavent or not.

[Richier]

absolutely, very good analogy, Truedatt. Maybe O'Brien and the writers of Goldstein's book had the same ideas as the writers of another bestselling book many centuries ago.

Only joking - I know this is the Orwell forum, not theology (or a-theology)

[truedatt]

wow I'm looking for opinions on this and like no one has said anything.

[The Atheist]

wow I'm looking for opinions on this and like no one has said anything.

Well, richier gave you a comment.

I don't think it's all that relevant - lots of stories share similarities with the bible by its very nature. The bible is a collection of "just so" stories, so any morality tale will include elements which relate well to bible stories.

I doubt Orwell meant to be analogous with the bible - he had no time for religion.

[bazarov]

I doubt Orwell meant to be analogous with the bible - he had no time for religion.

Yes; because God and Satan don't exist ;)

[Richier]

The concept of BB and Goldstein as good and evil can easily be equated to the biblical concepts of God and Satan.
Anything bad to society is explained as the actions of Goldstein's spies, anything good is a masterstroke of BB's leadership.
As for whether God and Satan exist or don't, this seems to confirm TrueDatt's point. God and Satan exist for those who believe, and BB and Goldstein exist for those who believe in them.
Whatever Orwell's personal beliefs, it seems to me irrefutably obvious that BB and Goldstein are the party's equivalent of God and Satan.

[truedatt]

hmmm... thats just it. O'Brin says it best realy. 1984 could be compared to Europe under the Catholic power in the dark ages. you have the upper party (bishiops and the pope) lower party (clergymen, monks friers, ect) and the proles (which does vary a bit being they were the ones persucuted for haricey) and then you have the "poster boy" if you will. someone that will never die and is all powerfull (god obvasly) i find this concept interesting

[delta-fan]

I think there is a link somewhere there, however, many stories with a 'good' character and a 'bad' character can be linked back to this as well

[The Lukewarm]

This analogy ocurred to me as well, in the last time I read this brilliant and prophetic book.

It makes a lot of sense, indeed, specially on what refers to the big brother as a metaphor of god. In fact, both are onipresent mystical beings, whose existence can't be proved by anyone, although everyone is supposed to believe earnestly in it. Furthermore, both, in principle, are kind and zealous to their beloved followers, but, at the same time, never hesitate in mercilessly punish them if a sacred rule is broken by any means.

[squanto]

the metephor your talking about is the same one i saw when i first read the book, but the metephor goes even deeper then just the aspects of good vs evil. its the actuall character traits of bb and goldstien. the ability of bb to be all powerful all knowing all seeing and omni present are equivalent to the biblical representation of god. stranger still is that if a christian were to pick up the book 1984 and replace the words big brother with God, their own mind would begin to participate in double think as described in the actuall book. the words would all be the same all the context would be the same every attribute would be the same, but the christian reader would interpret the book on the complete oppisite side of the spectrum as he would if the words were simply big brother instead of god. i believe if all of us read the book in this way we can understand much more of the words said and feelings depicted, because i know that i did

[Scmc872]

The Party's Goal in creating Big Brother and Goldstein was to create singular entities for their citizens to revere and hate respectively. They realized that humans find it easier to follow the will of a single entity than a collective group (The Party). Big Brother is meant to be a God which those deep in the Inner Party know is not real, but is just a representation of their ideals. They represent their Ideals as a real person because it is so much more fantastic that a single person can lead their "perfect society." And the fact that it is fantastic causes people to respect, fear, and love him.

The same is true for Goldstein. He is the rebel's ultimate role model. Someone that any dissident of The Party would look up to and want to follow; therefore The Party can use Goldstein and The Brotherhood to lure thought criminals into their traps.

[smile3]

What role does Big Brother play and does he really exist?

[jblackst]

I'm a Christian. It was interesting to read the response by the person who was speculating on how a Christian might read 1984. I ask you to consider this; what if you have accidentally mistaken who is God and who is Satan in 1984? I submit to you the idea that perhaps Big Brother is a more accurate representation of what Satan looks like and how he acts and Goldstein is a representation of God. What if the whole book is a picture of what hell looks like and the way that people who are lost think? People in hell don't believe in heaven. To them the very idea of it seems like a farce. They can't imagine that life could be anything more than a boot endlessly stepping on your face and God seems weak and powerless. Notice also that Goldstein seems to be associated with truth and freedom...and you know, he wrote a BOOK!! Big Brother on the other hand concerns himself with lies, violence, control and taking pleasures away from people. If you think this is what God looks like then I beg you to look again. He wants to know you and He wants you to know HIM for who he truly is.

[The Atheist]

...Notice also that Goldstein seems to be associated with truth and freedom...and you know, he wrote a BOOK!! ....

Unfortunately, Goldstein didn't write a book, primarily because he didn't exist.

Goldstein is a fiction by the Party and the book originally attributed to him was written by O'Brien at al.

[jblackst]

ok...so maybe some of the details aren't perfect. But try the idea on for size...its interesting. Think about it, hell is supposed to be a bad place, full of gnashing of teeth, hopelessness and away from the light and face of God which is where life comes from, etc....Oceania seems to fit this description.

[davebarrie]

@jblackst there is no such thing as a place away from the light of God because God is omnipresent

Edit: i registered here just to tell you this, keeping this in mind could help you deepen your relationship with our lord

[The Atheist]

@jblackst there is no such thing as a place away from the light of God because God is omnipresent

Does that mean the god runs hell as well, or is there just no hell?

[davebarrie]

who knows. I'm inclined to believe its all a bunch of rubbish.....

[Forgottenname]

One word.
No.

[Monkeys]

I don't think this really relates to god and Satan. I think this is simply big brother using Goldstien as a scape goat. They are uniting the people through a common enemy.