D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Hehe well maybe over the summer when I do not have such a reading load on me, I will begin reading over those stories. I am thinking of starting with the Horse Dealer's Daughter which Virgil mentioned, a while back, because it has the word horse in the title. LOL, I know great reason.

Hehe Goodnight.

[Virgil]

The other story that we covered that those of you who missed the early ones might want to read is "The Prussian Officer." A very intense story.

[Virgil]

I don't recall that debate on Hamlet, at all. What was it about? See, it really must have been vitally important, when I can't even remember it!


You don't remember? It was on the significance of the ghost. Here:http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19277&page=5&highlight=hamlet.

[Janine]

You don't remember? It was on the significance of the ghost. Here:http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19277&page=5&highlight=hamlet.

Hi, Everyone!I am justing now coming online. I was up way too late last night, as usual....

Hi Virgil,I did manage to re-read one of the stories - the one you suggested, when I showed you my list of stories, that I had read so far. I have read many of the stories by now; but I venture to say, they tend to all blend into a muddle for me, so I have to go back and review each one (really re-read the whole story again). That is the trouble with short stories, as opposed to novels. There are so many themes and so many plots, that they begin to run together, when you read so many at one time, especially late at night with one eye opened, one dropping shut ;), like me.:lol:

Virgil, now I do recall the debate about the ghost.:D Yes, I think finally we had to all finally say, 'let's give up the ghost!' - let's not :( go back there again, ok? Keep the peace, instead. :lol:

Anyway, bottom line, I will post the story officially, but I can tell you all now - it will be 'The Witch A La Mode' (an early story in Vol. 1); I will now go hunting for the online text, for some of you who will need it. I am also looking up some background on the story and most likely will add a nice picture - that gives the page a nice touch and attracts other people to the thread. OK, so NO discussing just yet, until I officially announce the story, on it's own page, in a bold typestyle. I promise to accomplish all this by this evening, now that I have made up my mind, as to which story we should read. We probably won't discuss it until tomorrow or next day, so everyone has a chance to read it first.

Here is one link to the story at Project Gutenburg: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks04/0400311h.html#s13
The story text is not our Lit Net site, unfortuately; sorry about that. Hope you all can assess this first link.

Antiquarian, I can't read too well online, either. I try to print out the stories, when I don't have assess to them. I have sometimes reduced the point size of the font or the style or both and still been comfortable reading it when printed. This helps save pages and if you designate 'draft' printing and in color 'print in gray scale' this also conserves ink. You might already be aware of these tips.


I downloaded that one, Virgil, but have to get paper before I can print it out. I can't concentrate reading at the computer.

That is a longer story, too...'The Prussian Officer' - that will take up a number of printed pages.
One of my favorite ones was 'The Shades of Spring' - that one is much shorter, and it is nice for this time of year.

[Dark Muse]

Anyway, bottom line, I will post the story officially, but I can tell you all now - it will be 'The Witch A La Mode' (an early story in Vol. 1); I will now go hunting for the online text, for some of you who will need it. I am also looking up some background on the story and most likely will add a nice picture - that gives the page a nice touch and attracts other people to the thread. OK, so NO discussing just yet, until I officially announce the story, on it's own page, in a bold typestyle. I promise to accomplish all this by this evening, now that I have made up my mind, as to which story we should read. We probably won't discuss it until tomorrow or next day, so everyone has a chance to read it first.

Well I have to say I am intrigued by the title of the story

[Janine]

Hi Janine,

I read "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" while I was at dinner tonight. I thought it was elegantly written, with much beautiful imagery, but so far, it has been my least favorite. I'm afraid I did not understand it fully, and because of that, felt it lacked depth.

Antiquarian, I agree that the imagery was so beautiful and the story so elegantly written. I picked it for springtime. We did discuss this story quite extensively and I don't recall all that was said about it; there was some symbolism, that we finally came up with between all of our thinking the various key words and images and researching it. I would have to review to see exactly what they were now.


Was the young man her supposed dead lover, or was she the one fantasizing? Now, I want to know!

Yes, he was her old lover, presumed dead; but he was derranged from the war and did not know her, he probably was shell-shocked and lost his memory. Likewise she was in-shock, when she saw him; wouldn't you be? In the garden she did not let on that she knew him at all. She did confess all this later to her husband at home. No, the man was real and not a figment of her imagination. If he had been a figment he would have appeared to her as normal or as she had known him. She had loved him and apparently, believing he had died, she married the next guy who came along and perhaps truly did not love him with the same passion, as this former lover.


Thanks for the link to the online text of "The Witch a la Mode." :)

Glad you could assess it. You can copy to your hard-drive now.

[Janine]

Well I have to say I am intrigued by the title of the story

Yes, DM...I knew you would be...;):lol:

[Dark Muse]

Yes, DM...I knew you would be...;):lol:

LOL, hopefully I will be able to fit it in this weekend with all my other reading.

[Janine]

LOL, hopefully I will be able to fit it in this weekend with all my other reading.

Is it a full moon this weekend? You might need a full moon to read this particular one:lol: ....just kidding really....think the full moon was last weekend, actually.
I thought we all could read it on the weekend, although I have read it twice already; I probably will read it again.

[Virgil]

Perhaps we should have saved this one for Halloween. :lol:

[Janine]

Thanks, Janine. That is what I thought. I did like the prose, but I didn't think the story had nearly the depth and symbolism as some of the others. I think it's worth reading for the beauty of its prose alone, though.

Yes, not too much plot to that one, true. It is hard to pick the stories each month (some great stories are hard to follow up on with others that might not be quite as good); but I am still glad I picked that one for that month, since the flower garden was enough to make one enjoy reading it. I also did like the idea of 'what if one were to meet up years later with a lost love?' sort of element to the story. I will tell you a funny story, about that later on, in regard to my own personal experience.
There was a lot of significance in the roses and the colors of the roses, I believe. When she gazed out over the sea that also had some hidden meaning. I will have to go back one day soon and review our commentary on that story. Can you wait till then? Now you have me curious, also.
Yes, the prose was almost poetry I thought. I would read it again just to read that lovely prose and imagine those roses so lush.

[Dark Muse]

Well as it turns out, my required reading for the weakend is pretty light, so it should not be difficult for me to get this one read.

[islandclimber]

Janine. Great choice!! This is my favourite of all the Lawrence stories I have read until now... I read it in a collection of short stories called "Love Among the Haystacks and Other Stories" back in University, several years ago... and I loved it.. I actually quite enjoyed several of the stories from that collection.. as I think I have said before, I do enjoy his short works more so than his novels...:D

The White Peacock, I found in my grandparent's library several years ago...

[Quark]

The story wasn't in my collection, so this will be new to me. When does the discussion begin?

[Janine]

The story wasn't in my collection, so this will be new to me. When does the discussion begin?

Sorry it was not in your collection. See I am getting you back, Quark!;) :lol: just kidding. Anyway, I did provide the link above to the story and wow, the Gutenberg site is really something - it has all the novels, poems and the short stories, plays, whatever L wrote available in full texts, right on one site. How cool is that? I even saw "The White Peacock" there.
Ok, so while all you have been posting, I have been offline and writing an introduction to the story. So without further ado.....I will be formally announcing the story in my next post, and adding my commentary and references I found on this early Lawrence work.



Janine. Great choice!! This is my favourite of all the Lawrence stories I have read until now... I read it in a collection of short stories called "Love Among the Haystacks and Other Stories" back in University, several years ago... and I loved it.. I actually quite enjoyed several of the stories from that collection.. as I think I have said before, I do enjoy his short works more so than his novels...

Oh, I am so glad, islandclimber. I suffered over which one to pick too long now. I read about 10 more stories in the process. Of course I like all the L stories so it was hard to choose just one. I thought I had that collection but I can't seem to find it. I do have enough collections as it is though. I own about 25 Lawrence books by now (of course many are bios and other commentaries). All I know is that they take up a lot of room!


The White Peacock, I found in my grandparent's library several years ago...
That is great - you mean your grandfather read Lawrence? or was it your grandmother? My friend's father read a lot of Lawrence...and he even wrote his own commentary on his work; my friend keeps it to this day.

Virgil and DM, glad you can fit the reading in this weekend. No Virgil, it is not that 'witchy' to me....anyway, you were the one that suggested it when I showed you the list of all I have been reading/reviewing these past few weeks.

[Janine]

Our next story reading and discussion is:


The Witch a la Mode

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p70/sealace/poppieandViolin.jpg


This story was begun in the spring of 1911; Lawrence was 25 years of age and had just lost his mother, to a long struggle with cancer; as most of you know, Lawrence had an unusually close relationship to his mother, which is greatly explored in "Sons and Lovers" and his biographies. In this period, he had also broken off with several key women in his life and he had a severe illness, in which he nearly died himself. Many biographers claim he was greatly altered after this illness and became even more sensitized to the world around him, especially the natural world. See references below, for more information on this time period in Lawrence's life.

The story is about a young man, going back to visit with a family he had been close to, because of his close ties to their daughter, Winifred. We find out early on, that he is betrothed to another woman, who is referred to in the story as Connie or Constance. He originally, was on his way to visit his fiancé, when he took a slight detour to stop the night and see Mrs. Braithwaite, obviously hopeful of meeting up again with his old flame. He uses the excuse, that he is too far from Connie’s house, to travel there at this hour of the night, using his fatigue as a further excuse to venture any further. As anticipated, he does meet up with Winifred and there is an intricate verbal matching of wills and intentions that pursues; with many interesting references to witchcraft, etc and much symbolism for all of us to muse on and try to interpret.

From D.H.Lawrence The Early Fiction by Michael Black:

..the short story ‘The Witch a la Mode’ explores the whole context of witchcraft, lamplight, and the long kiss which is vampire-like. The idea of a spirituality like a pressure-lamp, which burns so intensely that it consumes the vessel, the person concerned, links this passage to Miriam Leivers, in Sons and Lovers. There, too, we encounter the notion of ‘leaking’ – or a reversal of that process (‘as if he had not sufficient sheathing to prevent the night and the space breaking into him’).

I can go into that in more detail later and explain what he means by that last line...there is more explanation in my book. First we have to read the story, of course.

In the same reference book I found this:


The Lawrence-figure in ‘The Witch a la Mode’ is called Bernard Coutts; and the links here are with the young teacher in ‘Lesson on the Tortoise’, and with Cyril Mersham. But the woman is based on Helen Corke*, and a whole set of themes is derived from that relationship.

*Helen Corke was one of Lawrence intimage girlfriends. In "Sons and Lovers" the character of Clara is partly based on Helen Corke, along with other women Lawrence knew at that time period.

Biograhical references below from D.H.Lawrence A Calendar of his Works by Sager

1911 at 12 Colworth Road, Croydon in school terms until the end of September, when the Jonese moved to 16 Colworth Road. On 29th July Lawrence, Ada and Louie Burrows* went to Prestatyn in North Wales for the fortnight. Lawrence spent frequent weekends at the Burrows home in Quorn.

Louie Burrows was Lawrence's finance at one time. Therefore the character of Connie was probably partly based on her.

This next part is from Lawrence's diary or a letter; in the Timeline book:


SUMMARY …and , in the sick year after [the death of his mother]. The collapse for me of Miriam [Jessie Chambers], and of Helen [Corke], and of the other woman, the woman of ‘Kisses in the Train’ and ‘Hands of the Betrothed’[Louie Burrows]. Then, in that year, for me, everything collapsed, save the mystery of death, and the haunting of death in life. I was twenty-five, and from the death of my mother, the world began to dissolve around me, beautiful, iridescent, but passing away substancesless. Till I almost dissolved away myself, and was very ill. [CP 851]

Lawrence continued to work on Paul Morel. He wrote the first versions of the stories ultimately known as ‘The Witch a la Mode’[C215 A71], ‘The Old Adam’[A71], ‘Daughters of the Vicar’[A6], ‘Second Best’[C9 A6], ‘The Shades of Spring’[C18 A6] and rewrote most of his earlier stories…..

12 APRIL The third story was probably ‘Intimacy’ (‘Witch a la Mode’). ‘Intimacy’ was certainly written about his time [Corke 210]. The story describes a musical evening at the home of the pianist Laura Macartney at Purley, Lawrence attended several such evenings in the spring and summer of 1911, including 6 April. In the story, however, it is ‘an evening in March’.

During this time period, it seemed that Lawrence was struggling greatly with his writing, especially that of Paul Morel, which later became Sons and Lovers. Somedays he could not even write a word. Also,= to note, would be the fact that he was working at the same time (while writing these short stories and his novel) at Croydon as a school teacher. His severe illness that almost claimed his life after his mother’s death, halted any further working in a teaching environment. Also, what stood out to me, when reading more about this time period in The Calender of his Works, was the fact, that Lawrence was very much fluctuating between his sketching, drawing, painting and his writing. If he wrote one day, he concentrated on his visual art the next one or even few days, in-between. In my own opinion, in this time frame the stories reflect very much this sad personal time in this young writers life and also his intense and visionary skill at painting with words.
Also to note, is all the sadness and confusion he was experienceing at this time, having broken his ties with three woman he had been very close to, and the loss his mother.

So what does everyone say, shall we begin reading the story and start discussing, that is when everyone has completed their reading and is ready?

[Dark Muse]

Well I hope to have the story read over the weakend. I am looking forward to it.

[Virgil]

Fabulous intorduction Janine. :thumbs_up I started skimming last night. But it will take a while for me to really read it. I usually don't comment until I've read it twice.

[Dark Muse]

I should hopefully have the story read on Firday. Usually I will read the story over once and post my initial coments, thoughts, impression and such, than as the discussion progressess I will begin to rexamine the story looking for sepcific things and such.

[Janine]

Hi Everybody!

Quotes by Antiquarian

Sounds wonderful, Janine. Thanks for all the background. And the montage (is that the right word) is lovely.

Glad it enticed you to read the story, Antiquarian.
Oh, thank you! Yes, it is a montage but in my program it was called a composite. It really wasn’t exactly what I had in-mind, because I could not make piano keys, an oil lamp (couldn’t find a broken one or one with a flame) or the anemones (poppies) and a violin work all together. After I finished and posted that photo, half satisfied I thought of how I could have done it…by making the photo long and thin and putting a bit of each image next to each other…oh well, I will use that method next time. At least this one is eye-catching with the red and I thought she would have had to pick the poppies in the field and also red is so symbolic of flame or fire, don’t you think?
These montage/composites are fun to make. I have an old Adobe Photo Deluxe program (old now) that will do so many cool artistic things with photos.


I think I can read the story tomorrow while my husband's at the gym. At least I hope so. I'm looking forward to it, too, DM. Sounds great.

Glad everyone is looking forward to this. All your enthusiasm is great to feel; it's infectious!:D


I should follow that practice, Virgil. I often comment on things before I've thought them through, then have to make new comments correcting myself.

Hey, Antiquarian, I think we all do that; we are only human and sometimes our minds rush ahead of us. It is good to see such enthusiasm actually. I have been doing it more lately too, like in the Chekhov thread and then changing my mind about what I wrote, prior to my last post. It is getting confusing in there and I am a bit tired now of the last story. Hope Quark picks a new one soon. Maybe the fact we have picked one here will encourage him.


I read the story this afternoon and enjoyed it very much. I'll have to read it again before I comment, though.

Fabulous, so glad you liked it,Antiquarian. I agree – it is always best to read the story again. I sometimes read them 3 and 4 times.
I have to go and get the online text today to past into my Word program – then I make a shortcut right to my desktop. I found this works so well. Also, if you pull up two Microsoft Work windows you can write comments/notes in the second one, so you can post those online later. It is sometimes easier that way to see the story, directly in front of you. So many ‘key’ words become apparent.

Quote by Dark Muse

I should hopefully have the story read on Friday. Usually I will read the story over once and post my initial coments, thoughts, impression and such, than as the discussion progressess I will begin to rexamine the story looking for sepcific things and such.

Dark Muse, would it help you, if we started actually discussing this story on late weekend,...or even Monday? I know my weekends usually end up being a little hectic, and I know right now, I am needing to get my housework at least set up to do, if not scratch the surface; I need do some straightening today. I keep putting it off and I am literally tripping over things like shoes and flip-flops :lol: and books, books, books! A, you will never live that ‘flip-flop’ remark down with me now! :lol: I don’t know – what is the general consensus here? That would give Quark and islandclimber a chance to read the story. They both showed great interest in it. Hey, where are those guys anyway? Probably they are still reading….of goofing off and drinking tea…see the Chekhov thread. They are having quite a teaparty in there. :lol:


Quote by Virgil

Fabulous introduction Janine. I started skimming last night. But it will take a while for me to really read it. I usually don't comment until I've read it twice.

Thanks so much, Virgil. It took me a long time to type all of that in in the introduction…it is good to be appreciated; thanks! I didn’t want to use my scanner since my computer has been acting up (super-slow) and besides the information was from different books. I have much more commentary on this story, I think. I will be checking other books to see what I can dig up. This was one of Lawrence's popular stories, I believe. Isn't the title a neat one?

[Janine]

The weekend is fine with me, Janine. And I do like the composite. The poppies are gorgeous, but you know how much I love nature imagery. Oh, flip-flops! LOL I saw a girl wearing them in a restaurant last night.

:wave: Hi Antiquarian! Don't I know it though. I knew you would like the pastoral element and definitely I thought you would like the violin. Well, all the anemones I found online in vases, were just plain dull looking and not vibrant like these. Poppie anemones are brilliant in color, like fire. Hey, I think I already detected one bit of symbolism or forshadowing in the story. Think I am right? Poppies do look flamelike, in someway.
My neighbor has those type poppies in her front garden. When they bloom, I go wild. They are such an intense red and red is not my favorite color flower, but these are stunning to see. By the way, the ones in my composite photo are from the UK.

:lol: When you saw the flip-flops, did you think of me? I would imagine you will be encountering a lot of flip-flops by now.:nod: I saw tons of ads for them. I have too many as it is:( ; I better not even look at those ads.

:wave:Hi DM, too.

Quote by Antiquarian

DM, I tend to do the same thing in any book discussion.

It is always good to give an opinion and overview at first after reading; or a first impression. However, it is helpful, if everyone does not jump too far ahead in discussing the actual text, theme of the story or plot. Some people may not have read the story yet, when we start discussing it. If you mention the ending, please just put 'spoiler' before your post in bold. Also, and this is just a suggestion and one I have made before, if we jump right into discussing the ending, no one wants to disguss the rest of the story and the discussions die out too quickly. Way back when we started this thread,Virgil taught me a good thing: to take the story slowly and underline the key words, as we go along, also to break down the story into sections to discuss. It might be beneficial, as well, to look at the various aspects of the story like theme, symbolism, forshadowing...usually this does come out when we take it slowly and look at key words and phrases first.
I don't mean to be lecturing, but remember, we do have lots of time to discuss this story and it is not that long a story, anyway.....so everyone, please take it slowly...


Quote by Dark Muse

I should hopefully have the story read on Firday. Usually I will read the story over once and post my initial coments, thoughts, impression and such, than as the discussion progressess I will begin to rexamine the story looking for sepcific things and such.

Yeah, you have the right idea...DM....just don't give away the ending yet...

[Janine]

I think it's pretty obvious that the fire in the fireplace and the scarlet anemones at Winifred's signify that she's a giver of life - at least to Coutts. But why is so odd they're on the piano? Winifred, I thought, played the violin.

You really think she is a giver of life? That is interesting. We must discuss that more later on. I don't know if I see it that way - why was did she lead him on and then pull back then? I really don't wish to venture that far into the story yet, but it is something to think about. I don't know about the flowers exactly, but Coutts does mention it was unexpected of Winifred - he would have thought she would have freesias sitting in the vase on the piano, instead of the bright red flowers...so it did seem to signify something important...Lawrence would not have pointed it out like that if it had not meant something vital to the story. Maybe the red even symbolised Lawrence 'blood philosophy', we mentioned in the last story, or fire in general, fire being warm like the sun. The moon is also mentioned and I know that indicates a coldness and bright whie light for Lawrence and death, or an unliving state. A star is always Lawrence's special good omen.
I guess she just owned the piano, so that someone could accompany her when she played the violin, but maybe she did play both. I don't think in that day, it was that uncommon to have a piano in one's house. I know Lawrence's mother had a piano and played often, and I know my grandmother had one and played occasionally. My mother still has one in our living room and she rarely plays now. Many people had them to play hymns, Christmas carols or classical music. Lawrence even wrote a poem about his mother and the piano and an essay on loving the old hymns. The poem is one of my favorites. I should look it up for you. I have noticed that pianos have played dominately in Lawrence's works. In the time with no television or radios of phonographs, I guess people had to entertain themselves someway.

[Dark Muse]

Hi Everybody!

Dark Muse, would it help you, if we started actually discussing this story on late weekend,...or even Monday? I know my weekends usually end up being a little hectic, and I know right now, I am needing to get my housework at least set up to do, if not scratch the surface; I need do some straightening today. I keep putting it off and I am literally tripping over things like shoes and flip-flops :lol: and books, books, books!

Monday would be good for me, I should definately have the story read by then. But I do not want to hold anyone up if they have already read the story and want to start comenting on it. I will just do my best to catch up to everything when I am able.

[Janine]

Monday would be good for me, I should definately have the story read by then. But I do not want to hold anyone up if they have already read the story and want to start comenting on it. I will just do my best to catch up to everything when I am able.

Monday would be better for me, too actually. We will see what the others say. The guys don't even seem aware yet of the announcement, except for Virgil. They are both missing in Chekhov, too. They will probably show up later. Anyway, if we already read the story, it will give us all a chance to re-read it, and maybe make some notations of things we would like to discuss/also organise our thoughts on the story.

Antiquarian, what was the name of that other story you wanted me to read - the Faulkner one? I want to look that up online to keep in a file offline. If it is not too long I will print it out.

[Janine]

MINOR SPOILER ALERT: THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE STORY MAY NOT WANT TO READ THIS POST

He thought she would have white freesias, "...cream and gold and restrained, bruised purple..." He was very surprised at scarlet anemones. I think there's a definite significance, and I think it's significant they're on the piano. Here are a few lines from the story:

"I say," he said, this is a variation from your line!"

He pointed to a bowl of magnificent scarlet anemones that stood on the piano.

"Why?" she asked, pausing in arranging her hair at the small mirror.

"On the piano!" he admonished.

"Only while the table was in use," she smiled, glancing at the litter of papers that covered her table.

He's also extremely surprised because the anemones are scentless. and freesias are not.

I do think she's a giver of life, in a certain way, but I'll hold off on explaining why until everyone's read the story.

END OF POSSIBLE SPOILER

I won't really answer this now, unless someone else jumps in to, like Mr. V; anyway I don't think she is a giver of life....and what exactly would you say that means? I have specific reasons and people she directly relates to in L's real life so this is definitely influencing me. But we can go into that later on. You can also email me if you want to expound on that thought and then later add it to the posts.
Yes, I too thought it curious they were scentless but I might have a small notion on that idea, too.
Ok, this should be a really great discussion. It is starting off with a bang. A friend just called me, so I will be back later.

[Janine]

Janine, you are referring to H.C.? Perhaps Winifred is not a giver of life, but a giver of passion.

SPOILER ALERT DO NOT READ UNTIL YOU'VE READ THE STORY

Perhaps she sucks the life out of men, and that's why he expected her to have white flowers rather than red. But I really don't think so.

And I'm still stuck as to why Coutts is so surprised that they're on the piano.

END OF SPOILER



Ok, Antiquarian, I am back finally, but now I see you are gone - your light's no longer on.
First off, I was typing the post above yours when my friend called, so I forgot to thank you for the name of the Faulkner story. I like the title; thanks. I will copy and try to read it tonight.

Possible SPOILER

H.C.? I am lost now, who is that you are referring to? Yes, I agree that Winifred may have had a 'passionate' connection at one time, with Coutts (I believe that to have been the case), but she is now holding back from his full physical contact.

Don't poppies (red ones) symbolise rememberance? For instance, they were a symbol from the war, to remember the fallen soldiers. Veterans give paper poppies out on military holidays, when you give a donation. I thought his might be significant to this story - the idea of 'rememberance' - maybe 'passion remembered, although now dead'.

end of SPOILER


It is hard explaining Lawrence and just how complex his male and female interactions/relationships/struggles are. I think if you get around to reading "Sons and Lovers", Antiquarian, that will reveal so much to you about how the young Lawrence thought, in regards to women and relationships. This story is one written in the same time frame as "Paul Morel" or what later became know as "S&L". When you start "S&L" it might go slowly at first...first few chapters do... but stick with it and you will not be sorry. The story really draws one in and I don't know anyone who has read it, that seriously said they did not like it; most people I know loved it.

[Dark Muse]

Well I ended up reading the story tonight instead of waiting for tomorrow, but I will probably read it over again tomorrow as well, but until then I just wanted to say a few things.

Honestly, I have to admit this was not one of my favorite of the stories we have read. And well it did get to be a but annoying and redundant with all the laughing. After every single line of dialogue just about, someone laughed. It seemed a bit poor writing for Lawrence in that regard.

But one of the things I really did enjoy about the story was the symbolism that was used in this one. I rather did enjoy many of the passages, and well this will probably come as no surprise from the Chekov Thread, but I did love all the references made of the moon.

I think this story will be interesting and fun to discuss.

And, to be different, and so not to disappoint :D I really did not like the man in this story.

Mr. Coutts was just so irritatingly full of himself.

Though I must say, Laura did annoy me a bit, even though she only played a brief role at the beginning of the story

[Dark Muse]

Honestly I have to say for some reason or another, I did not have a problem with Winifred

[Dark Muse]

Yes I agree, I would not say I really liked Winnie, but there was something about her that I found interesting. Laura annoyed me, I hated Mr. Coutts. And I have to agree I did feel for Connie as well even if we never acutally meet her.

[Janine]

Dark Muse and Antiquarian, you two are a riot!:lol: Go back and listen to your posts. I just came on and geez...I hope I am not attacked for picking this story...no throwing of rotten tomatoes :rage: at me...

Wow, Islandclimber is going to be in direct opposition to you Dark Muse; he said this was his favorite Lawrence short story....and Manny suggested this one, out of all I showed him I had read...he said it was good story.

This is funny, I did not even think, as I read the story, whether I liked the characters or not. However, both of you seem to have strong opinions right away about liking or disliking the various characters. I usually just view the characters, in these stories, as having their human weaknesses and flaws or acting poorly or in reasonable fashion, which Lawrence is so good at portraying; he really gets into their heads.... and no one said we had to like anyone, for that matter. I find the stories interesting and fascinating, anyway.
Dark Muse, you always don't like someone - usually the woman I noticed. How funny you don't hate the man this time or did you say you did? Now you have company since Antiquarian doesn't like anyone in this story. :lol:

I am beginning to think we should have an opinion poll at the top of each story, so we can vote on how we view the charcters such as 'Hate, Like, Undecided, Love.' Hey, you two, this is not the 'Love, Hate' thread.;)

I would have to direly disagree with Dark Muse, that this is a poorly written work. I think a lot of critics would just cringe, if they heard that. This story was one of Lawrence's most popular and acclaimed ones, I believe...but I will look up further, what has been said and written about it and post some commentary directly; so don't just take my word for that. There is a couple page commentary in my Michael Black book, so he must have found it interesting. I do know Lawrence wrote it when quite young and therefore, it might not appear as polished or as advanced as stories, such as 'Sun' or 'The Man Who Loved Islands' - those stories came from a much different period in Lawrence's writing, when he turned to a more surrealistic approach. This story encompasses more, the rudimentary rural life and the pastoral feel of this early novels, "Sons and Lovers" and "The White Peacock", these being influenced by Thomas Hardy's work, but then taken a step further with Lawrence's own ideas. It is interesting to note, that in some of the Hardy novels 'witchcraft' is evident and the symbols of 'witchcraft' and the 'moon' is often very prominent, playing into his plots. I am thinking specifically of "Return of the Native", if any of you have read that novel. In fact, locals thought Eustachia to be a witch. These pagan beliefs are rooted in Hardy's culture and reflect in his works; he often explores how the town's people harbour so much superstition and believe in the pagan witchcrafts of ages past. In Hardy's work, unlike Lawrence's, 'fate' is a big factor. In Lawrence's work, he goe further to express 'free will', although his characters are often trapped in circumstances, they fight to free themselves from.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see just what the men have to say about this story. Where did they all go, anyway? I know Quark is still mulling over the choice for Chekhov ; I wish he would decide soon. I don't want to take my library book back, until he does.

Antiquarian, the moon image is not easily explained but I think Virgil can explain that better than I can. I did just recently read commentary that the moon to Lawrence represented a coldness and a whiteness and perhaps death. Remember, at this time Lawrence was going through a dire period in his life, having just lost his mother and also lost the woman he was close to...don't think he had relationships with all the women at one time. No, to the contrary; in fact Lawrence very much believed in being married to one woman for life. Of course, in his youth he was struggling to find the right woman, and going through what most of us go through as youths. Therefore it looks like he was a real womanizer but in truth he was not to my eyes.

Anyway, back to the moon, he may have seen the moon in cold terms and the morning star as a favorable omen. So when the moon is mentioned "He says the moon has set, and the evening star," he answered, "Both were out as I came down." The only thing I can make from this, is that the two combined made him hasten to her house or pursue her....he would see the star as the omen saying it was permissable or would be something he should pursue. Because in the next line she says

She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism.
This indicates that she understood what he was implying. Now I hope we can further understand just what that meant as well. I think that Virgil will have a thing of two to say about the moon. There was a chapter in "Women in Love" that was named "Moony". I will would excerpt some of those passage except it might be a spoiler for you to read the novel. Maybe I will go look the commentary up in the thread that deals with that chapter and the one dealing with 'the morning star'...both would be good resources to examine in relation to this story.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, you always don't like someone - usually the woman I noticed. How funny you don't hate the man this time or did you say you did? Now you have company since Antiquarian doesn't like anyone in this story. :lol:.

LOL, I said I hated Mr. Coutts in this story. He instantly struck me as just being completely full of himself. I did not really care about him at all. It was the other characters I found interesting mostly Winifred


I would have to direly disagree with Dark Muse, that this is a poorly written work. I think a lot of critics would just cringe, if they heard that. This story was one of Lawrence's most popular and acclaimed ones, I believe...but I will look up further, what has been said and written about it and post some commentary directly; so don't just take my word for that.

Well I am not one to be intimidated by what critics think. I like to be my own judge. And I perosnaly did not feel as if this story was very well written compared to the others we have read. Perhaps the story will grow on me more when I get the chance to read it again.

[Quark]

Janine. Great choice!! This is my favourite of all the Lawrence stories I have read until now

Honestly, I have to admit this was not one of my favorite of the stories we have read.

I did not like anyone in the story.

The strong reactions have piqued my curiosity. This is already making out to be the most controversial story Janine's picked so far. I'll read it tonight and see what I think.


I hope I am not attacked for picking this story...no throwing of rotten tomatoes :rage: at me...

Well this is one of the more well-known stories from Lawrence so there must be something noteworthy about it. Everyone enjoys the images and symbolism, maybe it's just the characters they don't like--and the laughing.


I am beginning to think we should have an opinion poll at the top of each story, so we can vote on how we view the charcters such as 'Hate, Like, Undecided, Love.' Hey, you two, this is not the 'Love, Hate' thread.;)

That would be fun, but I think we're a little too nuanced in our opinions for just four choices. There are different degrees and kinds of loathing, and I do want to be a specific as possible. Hopefully the characters won't be loathsome at all, though. I just got through a Vonnegut novel where all the characters are selfish and sleazy. I could use a few likable people in my next story.


I know Quark is still mulling over the choice for Chekhov ; I wish he would decide soon. I don't want to take my library book back, until he does.

Ha, first you wanted the discussion to go on for multiple months, and now you tell me I need to pick a story before the first month is out. You may just have to wait a few days. I'll try to pick one this weekend.

[Dark Muse]

I think it is mostly the dialogue within the story that I found atrocious. And that was a good portion of the story. The way the dialogue was written I just found a bit obnoxious at times. For the passages and the imagery, and such, and the part of the story that was not dialogue I did rather enjoy within this story.

And I did not hate all the chars. Just Mr. Coutts, and well Laura was annoying, but Winni I actually find quite interesting.

So I thought I would post some parts of the story I actually did like :D :

And don't worry I won't go far ahead, I will keep it close to the beginning.


The day was dying out. One by one the arc lamps fluttered or leaped alight, the strand of copper overhead glistened against the dark sky that now was deepening to the colour of monkshood. The tram-car dipped as it ran, seeming to exult. As it came clear of the houses, the young man, looking west, saw the evening star advance, a bright thing approaching from a long way off, as if it had been bathing in the surf of daylight, and now was walking shorewards to the night. He greeted the naked star with a bow of his head, his heart surging as the car leaped.

I really enjoyed this passage. I thought it was beautifully written, and I loved the imagery it produced.

I particularly like the last lines:


a bright thing approaching from a long way off, as if it had been bathing in the surf of daylight, and now was walking shorewards to the night.

And I loved the "naked star"

This also made me think of Two Bluebirds in a way. As it spoke of him "looking to the west" and than later on he begins to thank of his wife whom is back in the north. It is sort of the reverse of the scene with the wife in Two Blue Birds.


Above the coloruring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung sharp and keen. Something recoiled in him.

"It is like a knife to be used in a sacrifice," he said to himself. Then, secretly: "I wonder for whom"

I loved these lines, and found it interesting the way in which it is depicted as a new moon because the importance that phase of the moon plays in witchcraft.

I find the question of who the sacrificial victim is to be intriguing.

At first the obvious answer seemed to me to be Connie, but in further reading the story, in some regards I think it could also be either him or perhaps Winifred in a way.


Soon the car was running full-tilt from the shadow to the fume of yellow light at the terminu, where shope on shop and lamp beyond lamp heaped golden fire on the floor of the blue night. The car, like an eager dog, ran home, sniffing with pleasure the fume of light.

I just loved this.

[Janine]

Good start, Dark Muse - thanks for posting that and for not advancing too far into the story. I read some commentary about these passages and these images in the Michael Black book, but presently I don't have time to type them out or post them. I will do so later. I am going out now for a time and will return later tonight. I also loved those descriptions and they do relate to witchcraft and forshadow things to come in the story. Good observations on your part.
I wrote so much above your post - two posts and now I am all tired out to think and write anymore now. See you all later on.

[Dark Muse]

One of the things I did greatly enjoy was all the little witchcraft inuendo throughout the story. And I did find a lot of the images of passing from light into darkness to be a bit of forehsadow. Also I found very interesting how this story was set specially in the night. Most of the other stories thus far that I have read, seemed to have mostly day time imagery and settings to them.

For anyone else who is currious, as I was, here are some pictures of monkshood which I looked up:

http://www.flowerella.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/monkshood.jpg

http://www.handlebarhostas.ca/Pere_aa_ar/Aconitum%20monkshood.jpg

http://www.waltersgardens.com/image/lib/plants/WGDETA-17.jpg

[Janine]

Those are beautiful! I love having some images in this thread. I love that intense lavender. Did you notice I changed my sign picture to lilacs - they are out in my neighborhood right now and they are my favorite flower, they smell so good.
Thanks, Dark Muse, for posting these great photos. I was going to post another photo I found online later on, of this gorgeous poppie (anemone) field in England.

Yes, how true - so many contrasting light and dark images and the idea of the story taking place at night is an interesting one. I can't think, either of one we did that dealt with a nightime setting. I am a night person so this suits me just fine. I can only recall that one scene in "Women in Love" called 'Moony' that was set in the night-time hours with much darkness, only illuminated by the moon and stars. I simply loved that chapter.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I thought they were very pretty flowers. Though it does seem like an odd color for the sky to be described as. It is hard to imagine a sky that color. And well a part of me, could not help but think given the nature of the story that there perhaps not some signifigance to the flower name itself "monkshood" I do not think that was just randomly, or coincidental.

I will be looking forwrd to those picutres. And yes, I did notice the flowers you use in your sig now. They are quite lovely.

[Virgil]

Goodness gracious, how did I fall this far behind? :alien:

[Janine]

Goodness gracious, how did I fall this far behind? :alien:

How funny, Virgil, did you see that I summoned you? Then you arrived shortly after. First I summoned Quark, and he appeared; time for islandclimber to return, too. I really know how to reel you all back in with my magic wand!

Yeah, Virgil, technically we are not suppose to be discussing this until Monday, but you see how hard it is to hold back the flood-gates! Hahah - lots of enthusiasm here and already some contraversy so it should make for a great discussion this time around. I told them, if they don't like the story to toss the rotten tomatoes at you and not me! ;) :lol:

V - did you get my PM last night? I was kind of upset and probably sounded angry.

[Dark Muse]

It is probably my fault Virgil. LOL I got impatiant and ended up reading the story 12 o clock last night instead of waiting to read it over the weakend.

Here are some more flowers from the story. You can tell that I have nothing better to do. Which is actually pretty amazing, but I am caught up on everything now.

These are some alyssum flowers which are mentioned when Coutts first arrives at the house of Mrs. Braithwaite.

Funny thing is, that even after multiple readings I kept thinking that it said Asylum flowers.

http://www.floridata.com/ref/L/images/lobu_ma3.jpg

http://www.glenleagreenhouses.com/alyssum.JPG

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/904/686464.JPG

http://www.flowersoul.com/images/AlyssumRoyalCarpet.jpg

[Janine]

It is probably my fault Virgil. LOL I got impatiant and ended up reading the story 12 o clock last night instead of waiting to read it over the weakend.

Not just you but everyone. Soon as I post the story name we all get impatient to begin; I know that is true...and it is fine. Virgil, we did not get too far into the story yet at all. You can easily catch up. Mostly it has just been a little banter between us, a little debate about the characters and overall impression of the story.


Oh, these are gorgeous! Thanks so much. How they liven up the thread and we are all in such a 'springy' mood. I just love alyssum. I always try to grow it but it seems the white is the hardiest and will last the longest for me; but I want the lavender and blue colors. Weren't the flowers cascading or something from the walls? I have to look that up now. I recall it was such a lovely passage.

Dark Muse, glad you are getting a little 'down time' and rest. I have actually, seen the sky the color of those monkshead flowers - like a lavender blue, periwinkle. Haven't you truly ever seen the sky that color? Maybe in the dawn or sunset, I saw it with streaks of that color. Who knows; maybe it was from the polution in my area, what a thought... Anyway, back in England, Lawrence may have perceived the sky, exactly this color since there was a purer environment then, although the coal mines would have probably effected the sky color, in the area he lived in growing up. He may have left there and probably the coastal areas would have cleaner air and beautiful vivid sunsets. I imagine they still do.

[Dark Muse]

I do not think I have ever seen the sky quite that color before.

Here is the passage with the alyssum.


Coutts flung away uphill. He had forgotton he was tired. From the distance he could distinguish the house, by the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls. He ran up the steep path to the door, smelling the hyacinths in the dark, watching for the pale fluttering of daffodils and the steadier show of white crocusses on the grassy banks.


the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls.

When I first read this, it put me in the mind of an altar cloth.

And while I am at it, here is some crousses as well:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/40/412004187_ecb8eadb3e_o.jpg

http://www.jimmortensen.com/white-crocus.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/41/101116147_b702ff059e.jpg

[Janine]

Very pretty indeed, DM!
Quark is going to say this is turning into a 'girly flower garden' thread! :lol:

[Dark Muse]

LOL he better not, I take personal offence to being called girly :p

[Janine]

Gorgeous photos. I'm especially partial to lilacs and alyssum. And peonies. LOL

Oh yes, so am I, Antiquarian...I need to go and pick those lilacs today before it is past their season. There season does not last that long.
Dark Muse, those photos are lovely of the crocus. I like white flowers -they can be so dramatic in the yard. Right now, our white dogwood is out and it looks so bright at night - it looks like peddles of snow.

I have been reading a terrific commentary in my Michael Black book; it is specifically on this story (about 3, 4 pages), and I think now I have a clearer understanding of the symbolism and the idea(s) behind the story, even the significance of the title. I will try to copy (scan or type) some of this commentary/analysis for you all to read and mull over. I don't think I can accomplish posting this until Monday, when we officially start the discussion.

I may be really busy today and tomorrow. I have things to do and not all computer. Also, they said we might have thunderstorms, in which case, I will have to unplug and so cannot use the computer. We had some last night and I was shut down for a short while, but it was late already. So if I don't appear online tonight it is due to thunderstorms in my area. I don't take any chances anymore since I left my computer on one day and lightning surge went through out wires and blew out my DSL. I was without a computer for a week or more, so it is not worth it.

[Quark]

And well it did get to be a but annoying and redundant with all the laughing. After every single line of dialogue just about, someone laughed. It seemed a bit poor writing for Lawrence in that regard.

Was there really that much laughing? Only the beginning has laughter, and it's just a couple of giggly characters doing it all. What was funny is that when I first read your post I thought you meant that Lawrence was writing out every "ha." That would be extremely irritating.


And, to be different, and so not to disappoint :D I really did not like the man in this story.

Mr. Coutts was just so irritatingly full of himself.

Though I must say, Laura did annoy me a bit, even though she only played a brief role at the beginning of the story

I can't say there was anything specifically dislikable about her, DM, but I didn't find anything particularly likable, either. I guess I felt rather neutral about all the characters, even Laura. I felt sorry for Connie, though, even though she did not appear in the story. At least not directly, only by reference.

As for the characters, I agree with Antiquarian. I'm neutral toward them. Obviously, they have their flaws, but they pay for them themselves. Coutts is too fickle-minded and weak-willed to be really likable, but I empathize with his problems--so it evens out. I wouldn't call him selfish. The story is absorbed in his problems and relationships, therefore I don't fault him for also being absorbed in them. If you considered him as separate from the story, then you might see him as more selfish.

The only character that I'm not neutral about is Laura who, as Dark Muse aptly labels her, is annoying. Her reserve and politeness is almost grating.


I would have to direly disagree with Dark Muse, that this is a poorly written work. I think a lot of critics would just cringe, if they heard that. This story was one of Lawrence's most popular and acclaimed ones, I believe

I myself found the story enjoyable. Winnifred and Coutts' encounter on the dark hill was one of the best parts I've read in these short stories. The setting was perfect for Winnifred's attempted seduction; the dialogue was witty; the scene had such tension, too.

[Dark Muse]

Was there really that much laughing? Only the beginning has laughter, and it's just a couple of giggly characters doing it all. What was funny is that when I first read your post I thought you meant that Lawrence was writing out every "ha." That would be extremely irritating.


Hehe it felt like a lot to me.




As for the characters, I agree with Antiquarian. I'm neutral toward them. Obviously, they have their flaws, but they pay for them themselves. Coutts is too fickle-minded and weak-willed to be really likable, but I empathize with his problems--so it evens out. I wouldn't call him selfish. The story is absorbed in his problems and relationships, therefore I don't fault him for also being absorbed in them. If you considered him as separate from the story, then you might see him as more selfish.

He just really rubbed me the wrong way. And there was this one passage in which I just found him really completely obnoxious, and it made me just roll my eyes at him, but I do not want to give it away now, becasue it comes later in the story, and I have a few other things I want to say about it.

I really could not emphazise with his problems. Though we never acutally meet his fiancee, he seems to be completely inconsiderate of her and he does not really care even when he knows he might be causing her pain, he does it anyway and tries to justify it to himself.

[Quark]

Hehe it felt like a lot to me.

Well you gave me the idea that it was like one of those irritating laugh tracks on bad sitcoms. I didn't find it anywhere near so annoying. The laughs were used only to indicate how uncomfortable Laura is, and I thought they were well-placed.


I really could not emphazise with his problems. Though we never acutally meet his fiancee, he seems to be completely inconsiderate of her and he does not really care even when he knows he might be causing her pain, he does it anyway and tries to justify it to himself.

But his wife is such a bore and the life he leads with her is artificial and disingenuous.

[Dark Muse]

But that is not her fault, the only thing we know of her is what he tells us, and so he is a bit biased on the subject, particuarly sense he is trying to justify himself for his actions.

He should have thought of that before getting engaged, but he has made his choice. So he needs to the right thing and either be faithful to her, or tell her that he made a mistake and they cannot get married. Not go behind her back.

[Quark]

But that is not her fault, the only thing we know of her is what he tells us, and so he is a bit biased on the subject, particuarly sense he is trying to justify himself for his actions.

Everything is told from his perspective; however, unlike Chekhov's "About Love", there isn't any irony that makes you doubt his story. And, all he tells us about the relationship is how it makes him feel. It's hard to see how he could be biased about his own subjective state.


He should have thought of that before getting engaged, but he has made his choice. So he needs to the right thing and either be faithful to her, or tell her that he made a mistake and they cannot get married. Not go behind her back.

It's not so black and white as that. Some part of him does want to play the chivalrous husband, but other parts of him are not satisfied in this arrangement. Both marriage and non-marriage are poor choices for him.

[Janine]

Was there really that much laughing? Only the beginning has laughter, and it's just a couple of giggly characters doing it all. What was funny is that when I first read your post I thought you meant that Lawrence was writing out every "ha." That would be extremely irritating.

Quark, good to see you here with some preliminary comments. I am glad you liked the story. I liked it very much too and liking it more and more all the time now. I read some very enlightening commentary which gave me fresh ideas on the symbolism and the story's meanings and also the relationship to Lawrence's life at the time. I hope you read my earlier post that explains that Coutts did indeed represent the 'confused' Lawrence at the time this was written, and Winifred represents Helen, who Lawrence had a passionate affair with. Ok, now Connie would probably represent Lawrence real life finance for a time, Louie Burrows. She was very pretty and a proper type girl. That would fit the profile.
Personally, I don't remember any giggling or laughing in the story at all. I will have to go back and read that part. Was it before the little music recital? I did not feel there was excessive laughter in this story throughout. When Dark Muse wrote that I was not sure what she was referring to and meant to re-check the text. I will today and probably re-read the story tonight.
:lol: At least Lawrence did not use these - :lol:


As for the characters, I agree with Antiquarian. I'm neutral toward them. Obviously, they have their flaws, but they pay for them themselves. Coutts is too fickle-minded and weak-willed to be really likable, but I empathize with his problems--so it evens out. I wouldn't call him selfish. The story is absorbed in his problems and relationships, therefore I don't fault him for also being absorbed in them. If you considered him as separate from the story, then you might see him as more selfish.

You know, I don't recall being neutral to any of Lawrence's characters - isn't it funny that you all feel that way and I feel more strongly about them? I empathise with Coutts because, I think he is going through a transitional and confusing time in a young man's life. I don't think I liked Winifred that much, but I certainly did not dislike her either. I was just trying to understand the interaction between them, which in my book states they are talking to each other in a sort of symbolic, or code type of manner. This is partly, where the 'witchcraft' idea begins, to come into play in the story. Coutts feels drawn back to Winifred, and therefore sees her, as putting him back under her 'spell' of control and sucking the life-blood from him. She is not a 'giver of life' but a 'taker of life', as Coutts sees her.
In some of the lines, it states that they are right back in the 'love/hate' cycle of relating to each other, as before. It does not take long for this to happen, because truly, this relationship would be a destructive one for Coutts; Winifred as well, no doubt.



The only character that I'm not neutral about is Laura who, as Dark Muse aptly labels her, is annoying. Her reserve and politeness is almost grating.

Humm, but isn't Laura a secondary character? Why such strong feelings about her? I hardly thought about her actually. I did find her questioning a little annoying at times.




I myself found the story enjoyable. Winnifred and Coutts' encounter on the dark hill was one of the best parts I've read in these short stories. The setting was perfect for Winnifred's attempted seduction; the dialogue was witty; the scene had such tension, too.

I agree entirely. I think it is a good story and well structured with lots of interesting symbolism, that hopefully we will understand by the end of this discussion. We have plenty of time.
Later I will try and post some beginning passages, underlining some key words and phrase, to discuss. Several images stand out in the scene you mention on the hill, Quark. I though the image of the train winding through the dark night - the 'golden-and-black snake' just incredible. Often Lawrence uses snake images and golden. The crystal ball and mirror, the new moon, the evening star, red anemones, fire and a circle of fire, etc. are all images worthy of exploring for their full meaning to the story.


But that is not her fault, the only thing we know of her is what he tells us, and so he is a bit biased on the subject, particuarly sense he is trying to justify himself for his actions.

He should have thought of that before getting engaged, but he has made his choice. So he needs to the right thing and either be faithful to her, or tell her that he made a mistake and they cannot get married. Not go behind her back.

;) :lol: Miss Puritanical...DM, I did not take you as being that conservative in your thinking. Did you ever hear of temptation? I think this story is about being tempted to reach back into the past before, he (Coutts/Lawrence) does tie the knot with his finance, which is a very serious and permanent thing. He is not taking marriage lightly at all. It says he feels guilty about his encounter several times in the text. By the way, they are not yet married, Quark. The man is basically still 'free' and has some 'free-will' of his own, you know. Engagements are broken all the time. Maybe he needed to be sure, that he was marrying the right girl. Personally, I don't think he is and in the end the engagement will be broken off entirely. This is what happened to Lawrence in real life, so if you want to hate or be repelled by Coutts, basically you are dismissing Lawrence's own feelings and the temptation to go and seek out his old girlfriend and see if anything between them has changed in the 10 month interval. In the beginning of the story it seems clear to me that Coutts is still very unsure of himself, and even still feels this attachment to Winifred, and he is unsure of his relationship with his finance - that seems to me to be on somewhat unsure and shaky ground. Why is everyone assuming that is such a set thing and he must stick to it? What happened to the idea of free will? The word was even mentioned by the old man in the very begining of the story. I don't think broken engagements, in that time period, were that uncommon, so it still would be an option for Coutts. I think the story is about following one's instinct and setting things straight, before proceeding to the big step of matrimony. Remember that Coutts is young and who do you know at that age who is totally ready for total commitment or marriage?


Everything is told from his perspective; however, unlike Chekhov's "About Love", there isn't any irony that makes you doubt his story. And, all he tells us about the relationship is how it makes him feel. It's hard to see how he could be biased about his own subjective state.

I totally agree with this. His story is a honest one and straightforward, therefore I can empathise with the character of Coutts. He is confused and exploring his past to make sure he does not make a dire mistake in his future.


It's not so black and white as that. Some part of him does want to play the chivalrous husband, but other parts of him are not satisfied in this arrangement. Both marriage and non-marriage are poor choices for him.

I agree with this also. You snuck in this post when I was working on my long posts. As I said I don't think either relationship will work out for him. He is not the chivalrous husband because he is not yet married to Connie, only engaged. He has some 'free will' at this time. And the issues are hardly black and white ones - definitely more complext than that.

[Virgil]

I cant believe you guys are up to over five pages of discussion on this already. Is this real discussion or just chit chat? Should I go and read these five pages? I just read the story for the first time. I want to read it again before I jump in.

[Janine]

I cant believe you guys are up to over five pages of discussion on this already. Is this real discussion or just chit chat? Should I go and read these five pages? I just read the story for the first time. I want to read it again before I jump in.

Virgil, glad you finally arrived; glad you read the story also. Well, the five pages of post (can't believe that really) is a mix, so it is worth going back to read some of the pages; can you? It would really be helpful, because we all seem to have some differing ideas on this story, and the characters. I did read some good commentary on it early today and will reread it tonight, about the witch and other symbolism/significance and I know you will pick up on some typical Lawrence images and just what they meant to L and this particular story. I will check in later tonight to see if you posted anything else.

[Janine]

Whose wife? Coutts? He's not married.

Antiquarian, I said that, too and I pointed that out to Quark a few posts back. This is an important factor, since Coutts really does have free 'will to' go and see whomever he wants to, even an old girlfriend. He does indeed express a feeling of betraying his finance - several times in the text the word 'guilty' is used, did you notice that? But he has not tied the knot yet.

[Janine]

Janine, I've come to see Coutts pulled in two directions. On the one hand, he wants a very proper life with a very proper wife like Connie. In that case, his lustful attraction to Winifred would make her a definite "taker of life." (Though, really, Coutts has to take responsibility for his own actions.)

On the other hand, I think Coutts finds a passion and intensity with Winifred that he can't share with Connie. So, in that sense, she's a "giver of life."

Coutts needs to make up his mind which is the more important to him and which he really needs in his life.

I rather liked Coutts. I was a little angry with him for letting his passion for Winifred make Connie upset, though, for his lack of self-control, but I could understand him, especially in light of the fact that Lawrence wrote this story when very, very young.

Antiquarian, that is exactly right, in my own opinion. I think the 'taker/giver of life' idea is a kind of prominent idea of 'duality' in Lawrence and his writing. Yes, definitely Coutts/Lawrence is struggling to find his own path and which road he should follow - marry a respectable girl and settle down or go with the old passionate flame of desire and physical love. I don't see that either will be right for Coutts in the end, as it was the actual case with Lawrence, in reality. Both women, in this story, are at opposite ends of the poles. He needs a woman who will encompass both and he has not found her yet, not in this story, nor his real life. Had he found her, he would not have strayed to go to pursue his old girlfriend.

[Quark]

Whose wife? Coutts? He's not married.

Yes, I know. I referred to her as the wife because I forgot her name, but I figured everyone would know who I was talking about.


Antiquarian, I said that, too and I pointed that out to Quark a few posts back. This is an important factor, since Coutts really does have free 'will to' go and see whomever he wants to, even an old girlfriend. He does indeed express a feeling of betraying his finance - several times in the text the word 'guilty' is used, did you notice that? But he has not tied the knot yet.

Coutts would have free will even after marriage. There's only a slender difference between seeing another woman when engaged and when married. Both are affairs.


He needs a woman who will encompass both and he has not found her yet, not in this story, nor his real life. Had he found her, he would not have strayed to go to pursue his old girlfriend.

You're right that neither woman is really "right" for him. They each appeal to different sides of him.


Still, the person I have the most sympathy for is Connie, however.

I do feel bad for Connie, and so does Coutts. Lawrence draws our attention to her through both Coutts feelings and similar situations. One situation that reminds us of Coutts' neglected wife is the scene where Miss Syfurt gets on the car.


It was not later than ten o'clock when Winifred and Miss Syfurt rose to go, the former to Croydon, the latter to Ewell.

"We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.

"Yes, I am glad," he answered.

He took up Winifred's violin, and the three proceeded downhill to the tram-terminus. There a car was on the point of departure. They hurried forward. Miss Syfurt mounted the step. Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:

"Come along, please, if you're going."

"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."

"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.

The conductor rang the bell.

"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"

"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.

"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.

"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.

Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.

It's another situation in which Coutts promises a woman to join her, but then breaks away.

[Dark Muse]

;) :lol: Miss Puritanical...DM, I did not take you as being that conservative in your thinking. Did you ever hear of temptation? I think this story is about being tempted to reach back into the past before, he (Coutts/Lawrence) does tie the knot with his finance, which is a very serious and permanent thing. He is not taking marriage lightly at all. It says he feels guilty about his encounter several times in the text. By the way, they are not yet married, Quark. The man is basically still 'free' and has some 'free-will' of his own, you know. Engagements are broken all the time. Maybe he needed to be sure, that he was marrying the right girl. Personally, I don't think he is and in the end the engagement will be broken off entirely. This is what happened to Lawrence in real life, so if you want to hate or be repelled by Coutts, basically you are dismissing Lawrence's own feelings and the temptation to go and seek out his old girlfriend and see if anything between them has changed in the 10 month interval. In the beginning of the story it seems clear to me that Coutts is still very unsure of himself, and even still feels this attachment to Winifred, and he is unsure of his relationship with his finance - that seems to me to be on somewhat unsure and shaky ground. Why is everyone assuming that is such a set thing and he must stick to it? What happened to the idea of free will? The word was even mentioned by the old man in the very begining of the story. I don't think broken engagements, in that time period, were that uncommon, so it still would be an option for Coutts. I think the story is about following one's instinct and setting things straight, before proceeding to the big step of matrimony. Remember that Coutts is young and who do you know at that age who is totally ready for total commitment or marriage?

What can I say, for me betrayal and infidelity is the one unforgivable sin.

And the way I see it, the engagement period is not the period of deciding if you are or are not with the right person, that is what dating is for, presumably once you propose you have decided you want to be with that person.

And I did not say his engagement had to be a binding contract. I said he should either be faithful to her, or tell her that he made a mistake and that he cannot marry her. Just not go sneaking around behind her back.

I really do not think that is unreasonable.


Quarksaid:


Everything is told from his perspective; however, unlike Chekhov's "About Love", there isn't any irony that makes you doubt his story. And, all he tells us about the relationship is how it makes him feel. It's hard to see how he could be biased about his own subjective state

I think he is being biased in the fact that he is presenting an argument to himself in a way that will make him feel less guilty about what he is doing.

He has something to gain from making his relationship with Connie seem like a dull one, because that will make him less responsible for causing her pain if he feels his actions are justified.

I have to go now, but I will read the rest of the posts and respond when I am able.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I did notice, Janine. He feels so guilty about causing Connie pain by not continuing on to Yorkshire that night, but then later he seems to blame Winifred for his own feelings of passion when he thinks how much he hates her.

When he said:


"I believe she is very well--unless my delay has upset her," said Coutts, his tounge between his teeth. It hurt him to give pain to his fiancee and yet he did it willfully.

I felt this was rather callous, and not a sign of true remorse. He is saying, well I know I am causing her pain, but I am just going to keep doing it anyway.

If he was in true guilt he would have got his butt home.

[Janine]

Exactly, Janine. Exactly. And as Coutts was a very young man, Lawrence, too, I've come to have sympathy for his dilemma. Still, the person I have the most sympathy for is Connie, however.

Winifred must have been Lawrence's "moon," while Connie was his, what? Sun? Flame? I'm not familiar enough with his symbolism to know.

Antiquarian, I could agree with that, but I am sketchy about deciding about Connie. We actually are not given enough information in this story about her, to determine what she is really like, nor what she and Coutt's relationship is like; therefore, I can't feel truly sorry for her; this is odd coming from me, because if I was the finance, I surely would be the first one to be outragged and hurt. I just don't think that one is totally bound, until those marriage vowels are said. I don't see the line between being engaged and being married a thin line, necessarily. It can, instead be quite a giant leap. I guess I am thinking of myself and my own life, because had I pulled back last minute and called my wedding off, I would have lived through a lot less grief than I did. I think that people can remain engaged, even if they feel inclined to break it off, because there are factors such as, disappointing people and especially breaking the heart of the spouse to be that play into making decisions of the heart. Therefore, I feel that Coutts can be forgiven for his feelings of guilt and I don't think these feelings are black and white, either. I think when he takes the iniatial steps to go see the family of Winifred he is doing so with some bit of innocense but hoping underneath he will indeed encounter her again. These feeling he has are complicated and spur of the moment he follows through with them. It might be that he feels he has not truly broken the ties he has with Winifred, and in going back, actually 'subconsiously' he knows he will break those ties once and for all. The ending is very reminincent of an 'exercising' or freeing of a spell of a witch. This idea I read in several commentaries and it make perfect sense to me now.
Antiquarian, what do you think of these last ideas?

[Dark Muse]

You made me laugh, DM, but I'm not laughing at you or your opinion at all. It's just that the way you phrased it is funny, in a very good way. He should have ridden right by Croydon and gone to Yorkshire.

Hehe


That's true, if people always did what was right, but they don't, and in truth, they often do feel guilty about it. Sometimes people are tempted to do the wrong thing, the thing they know they shouldn't do, and that temptation is stronger than their moral fiber. I do think Coutts showed some signs of guilt, I'll give him that. Still, the person I felt for through the entire story was Connie.

But I do not think that just becasue a person is weak, so of thier own free will they make the choice to do the wrong thing, simply becasue it is easier to do so, reguardless or what guilt they may or may not feel, should make it excusable.

When it comes done to it. He could have at any point walked away from Winni. There was nothing stopping him from doing so, than his own choice to go with her.

I do not think we should take personale responsablity away and just excuse a wrong action by saying, well they could not help what they did becaue they are human.

[Dark Muse]

Winifred must have been Lawrence's "moon," while Connie was his, what? Sun? Flame? I'm not familiar enough with his symbolism to know.

Yes, that is how I felt about Connie, that she represented the light, becasue in a way though we do not know anything about her, she seemed to be innocent one in all of this.

While Winne, was connected and associated with the moon, and clearly she was not so innocent. She knew what she was doing and was aware of the situation.

[Dark Muse]

However, unlike DM, I do feel Coutts felt truly guilty about his encounter, and yes, I agree with you, the ending is much like an exorcism.


I abolutely loved the irony of the ending. It was like the whole witch burning thing. I did find that both quite clever as well as amusing.

And I think that also in someways, it refelcts as Coutts being the truly guilty party. Though Winni should not have been flirting with a man she knew was engaged, in some reguards she could be seen as a victim of Coutts as well. Though she is not as unknowing as Connie is.

For in the end it is ulimately Coutts who gets punnished. He is the one who is burned by the fire, while Winne, is left unharmed by the incident.

[Janine]

Originally Posted by Quark
It's another situation in which Coutts promises a woman to join her, but then breaks away.

Quote by Antiquarian

Yes, great observation. Of course, Winifred is not really a witch, but she's bewitched poor Coutts and he feels miserable about it. He liked and respected the lovely German woman, just as he loves and respects Connie, but Winifred's pull on him is too great. Especially since that moon is full. (I'm being facetious now. I know the moon was out, but was it full?)

I thought that was an interesting observation and comparison, as well. I had not thought of the significance of that moment, before. She would reflect the leaving of Connie behind and her upset state. This is interesting about the trains playing prominently in this story, because Lawrence asked Louie Burrows to marry him, while they were riding on a train. Acording to the account, his proposal was not too romantic. He simply blurted out something about the fact that 'they should (or might) marry'. I don't think there was too much passion between he and Louie (Louise); quite honestly. In this story, the counterpart to Louie would be Connie, who we only perceive by her name and few scant remarks.

Quotes by Dark Muse

What can I say, for me betrayal and infidelity is the one unforgivable sin.

Ok, if you were engaged and you found out in your heart that you really were unsure and might still love your former lover, what would you do? Remember too, that engagements in the early part of the century were a lot different than today. For one today's trend is to live together first, and in the 1900's this was not the case. Often intimacy with a 'nice' girl did not happen until after marriage. It was a far different time and attitudes were different back then. Young men were often quite frustrated, because women did not allow physical contact (sex), until those marriage vowels were taken.


And the way I see it, the engagement period is not the period of deciding if you are or are not with the right person, that is what dating is for, presumably once you propose you have decided you want to be with that person.

That is true of today; however, in either time periods, people are allowed an 'out' if they truly decide the marriage is not for them or right for the couple. I knew someone recently who called off her wedding. It was not an easy decision to make, but I told her it was her life and she had to please herself and not do what everyone else expected her to do. As it turned out, it is for the better. I don't think that is betrayal, to decide not to marry, after one is engaged. My neighbor and his girl friend broke off an engagement, of about 5 years, and married other people. Better to decide before the wedding, than afterward.



And I did not say his engagement had to be a binding contract. I said he should either be faithful to her, or tell her that he made a mistake and that he cannot marry her. Just not go sneaking around behind her back.

Give him time; I believe he was going to tell her had he seen Winifred and realised he still loved her. He only went there as a social visit and it turned into more than that, but then the fire stopped him and brought him to his senses. Now, Dark Muse, do you think honestly, he will end up marrying Connie after he leaves this scene? When talking to Laura, in the beginning, to me, he seems very unsure of his marriage-to-be. I don't believe any date had been set or any firm decision had been made.


I really do not think that is unreasonable.

Well, once again, Dark Muse...we disagree...;) :lol: what can I say?


I think he is being biased in the fact that he is presenting an argument to himself in a way that will make him feel less guilty about what he is doing.

I don't. I think the story is being expressed with the inner feelings, as they are happening to him. I think the writing is very sincere and truthful, even to admitting any feelings of 'guilt'. In fact, a whole range of emotions are expressed from elation (beauty of the night), to a presentiment, to confusion, to emotional struggle, to passion and withdrawal, to quilt and dispair, perhaps awakening. I think as Quark already stated we can't judge this as a black or white issue - nothing about this story is black and white and clearcut to me.



He has something to gain from making his relationship with Connie seem like a dull one, because that will make him less responsible for causing her pain if he feels his actions are justified.

I think in actuality it was dull. How would you know otherwise? I don't think he is conniving in this respect at all. Geez, you really want to see this poor guy as a total jerk. What good does it do to categorize him thus and place him into a stereotyped mold. He is only human with human weaknesses and failing and decisions that might not always be correct but he is gropping to find his way, his true path.



I have to go now, but I will read the rest of the posts and respond when I am able.

OK, great, DM...glad you posted so much and don't take our differences of opinion too seriously. We are just debating and trying to come to some understanding, of why the Coutt acts as he does. He is the main character and therefore, to me, the focus is on him and his internal feelings and dialogue; even though it is written in a third person format....it still feels like he is is the one expressing it.

[Dark Muse]

Ok, if you were engaged and you found out in your heart that you really were unsure and might still love your former lover, what would you do? Remember too, that engagements in the early part of the century were a lot different than today. For one today's trend is to live together first, and in the 1900's this was not the case. Often intimacy with a 'nice' girl did not happen until after marriage. It was a far different time and attitudes were different back then. Young men were often quite frustrated, because women did not allow physical contact (sex), until those marriage vowels were taken.

Well I would not go behind the back of the person I was engaged with and visit my old lover to have an affair with them, while I knew that my fiancee was at home waiting for me.

And I think the only reason he did not "go all the way" with Winni was becasue he saw that she did not truly want that from him. He grew angry when he realized she wanted a kiss and no more.



That is true of today; however, in either time periods, people are allowed an 'out' if they truly decide the marriage is not for them or right for the couple. I knew someone recently who called off her wedding. It was not an easy decision to make, but I told her it was her life and she had to please herself and not do what everyone else expected her to do. As it turned out, it is for the better. I don't think that is betrayal, to decide not to marry, after one is engaged. My neighbor and his girl friend broke off an engagement, of about 5 years, and married other people. Better to decide before the wedding, than afterward.

It is not beytryal if you are open and honest with your fiancee about your feelings and what you really want. But it is betryal to me, if you go behind your back, and do something you know will hurt them, while you are still currnetly engaged to them.


Give him time; I believe he was going to tell her had he seen Winifred and realised he still loved her. He only went there as a social visit and it turned into more than that, but then the fire stopped him and brought him to his senses. Now, Dark Muse, do you think honestly, he will end up marrying Connie after he leaves this scene? When talking to Laura, in the beginning, to me, he seems very unsure of his marriage-to-be. I don't believe any date had been set or any firm decision had been made

I do not think that is entirely true. The fire started when he kicked the lamp over out of his anger, what really stopped was seeing that Winni really did not wnat that from him.


The hurt became great it brought him out of the reeling stage to distinct concsouness. She clipped her lips, drew them away, leaving him her throat. Already she had had enough. He opened his eyes as he bent with his mouth on her neck, and was strartled; there stood the objects of the room, stark; there close below his eyes, were the half-sunk lashes of the woman, swooening on her unatural ebb of passion. He saw her thus, knew that she wanted no more of him than that kiss. And the heavy form of this woman hung upon him. His whole body ached like a swollen vien, with heavy intensity, while his heart grew dead with misery and despiar. This woman gave him anguish and a cutting-short like death; to the other he was fale. As he shivered with surring he opened his eyes again and caught sight of the pure ivory lamp. His heart flashed with rage.



I think in actuality it was dull. How would you know otherwise? I don't think he is conniving in this respect at all. Geez, you really want to see this poor guy as a total jerk. What good does it do to categorize him thus and place him into a stereotyped mold. He is only human with human weaknesses and failing and decisions that might not always be correct but he is gropping to find his way, his true path.

What can I say, I am not that forgiving. He is knowingly and willingly doing something wrong, the whole time he is doing it, he cliams he feels guilty about it, but does not let that acutally stop him from his actions.

I do not think we should just let people off the hook on the simple basis, well becasue they are human they cannot help themselves form doing things that are wrong, so it should than be ok for them to do those things.



glad you posted so much and don't take our differences of opinion too seriously. We are just debating and trying to come to some understanding, of why the Coutt acts as he does. He is the main character and therefore, to me, the focus is on him and his internal feelings and dialogue; even though it is written in a third person format....it still feels like he is is the one expressing it.


Hehe yes I know. And well I know I have to be the difficult one. Or maybe just the mean one :D

[Janine]

Janine, I'm inclined to cut Coutts some slack here, because he's very young, and he does feel guilty, and we truly don't know his relationship with Connie. We never meet her and get to know her.

Yes, that is a good way to put it, Antiquarian - 'to cut him some slack'. Ok, he did wrong by going back, but then you could not just pick up a phone and say 'by the way, how have you been' in those days. It was common to go and see people. I think Winifred kind of lured him in, too or am I reading that wrong? I need to re-examine the text, and exactly what transpired between them, on the way to the train and after. Of course, as soon as the train pulled away, with the other woman abroad, leaving Coutts and Wini alone, then the situation was bound to spiral out of control. Fortunately, the fire stopped it, but seconds before this, didn't Coutts begin to come to the realisation and to withdraw from his actions? Maybe Connie and guilt and reality were calling him back. He was like someone under a 'spell' and then suddenly he began to break the spell, himself. Then the lamp was kicked over and that finished it. The blaze totally brought him back to reality.


I don't dislike Coutts, not entirely, however, I do feel as DM that being engaged entails certain commitments and one of those commitments is to stay away from other women (or men, if one is a woman).

Cut oneself off from people entirely, just because they are women or men? What if you have a good friend, who is a woman? Lawrence had many good friends who were women and no doubt some of them would have gone for him if he had shown interest. I just don't know. He had this whole group of friends along with Winifred and he went there to listen to them play instruments often in the past (in Lawrence's real life this was true as well and this family were truly close friends). Should he have to totally cut himself off from them, even after he was married?



Right now, I don't feel he went down to Croydon in all innocence. I think he went hoping to encounter Winifred again, perhaps even to have a sexual liaison with her.

I think when he makes the sudden detour or delay to stay in this area he does it consciously. I don't think he has fully thought out his intentions or expectations though, not yet. He may have entertained the possibility of a sexual liaison, but how did he know it would even be feasible or possible. In the end, it was not and partly due to his own decision to depart.



However, unlike DM, I do feel Coutts felt truly guilty about his encounter, and yes, I agree with you, the ending is much like an exorcism.

I think the quilt and the reality of Connie pulled him back into the real world, as I said. He was 'swept-up' into her influence (withcraft) the moment he saw Winifred again, as in a dream. This was the whole idea of the story - that she had bewitched him and taken him momentary back to the past - a past that would not work for them, then or now. With the kiss, he snapped out of the dream - funny, it is sort of like the awakening of a sleeping princess, but instead the prince awakens and flees. This is another sort of irony at the end of the story, don't you think?



I abolutely loved the irony of the ending. It was like the whole witch burning thing. I did find that both quite clever as well as amusing.

So did I. I thought you might like that, Dark Muse. It was so very 'witchy'! It was a very clever ending and him rushing from the house with burned hands was a great touch. "Hey, you play with fire, you get burnt."



And I think that also in someways, it refelcts as Coutts being the truly guilty party. Though Winni should not have been flirting with a man she knew was engaged, in some reguards she could be seen as a victim of Coutts as well. Though she is not as unknowing as Connie is.[quote]

No, I think she shared in the guilt. I think it was pretty equal that way. Unlike Winifred though Coutts stopped and separated himself from her and left at the end, calling himself a 'clumsy fool'. I think that 'clumsy fool' implied way more than kicking over the lamp and starting a blaze.


[quote]For in the end it is ulimately Coutts who gets punnished. He is the one who is burned by the fire, while Winne, is left unharmed by the incident.

Like I said, 'you play with fire and you get burnt.' So I wonder how he will explain those burned hands to Connie? ;) :lol: hummm......will she suspect...we must tune in next week to find out...hummmm....

[islandclimber]

Just stopping in for a second before I head out again... but I am going to be the black sheep here...:p

I love Coutts and Winifred as well.. I sympathize with them both entirely.. well I wouldn't even call it sympathize for I do not especially see there actions as wrong... Maybe hedonistic.. but I suppose it depends upon your outlook of what is right and wrong...

I find to be two still quite young people in all the glory and power and sexuality that their age comes with... they are just doing what would please them, what makes them happy... and why shouldn't they.. and why shouldn't Coutts, love Connie and at the same time love another... No one here really had a problem with the gallant affairs of the woman in the last story... is that only because her husband knew and was okay with it???

but still, if Coutts wants to go on passionately with Winifred, while marrying Connie, then why shouldn't he? if that is what makes him happy, and if Connie is happy with him, and if Winifred is okay with this setup.. I say do what makes you happy, and if others have a problem with that, well, then they just don't have to be a part of your life... Connie can leave him if she finds out...

In this story though, I think Coutts is very unsure of himself and what exactly it is that he wants.. he really has no idea... he is very conflicted... as mentioned in earlier posts.. Does he love the sun or the moon.. and maybe a combination... and he returns to his former lover just to see... I love the strength of character of Winifred, I find she is a powerful woman, strong, and knows what she wants... whether she is always certain around Coutts, well that is part of loving and hating at the same time, which they both have feel for one another, but she has such character...

I love her sarcasm on Coutts engagement, and her thought that it is a monstrosity that he could marry for almost no apparent reason other than something to do it seems... and then their discussion on her fog of symbols, and candles in that fog.. the images elicited by this story are so abstract and so wonderful... and then the statement saying she would never buy scentless flowers just as she would never love a man only for being handsome.. I love this comparison, a scentless flower to a shallow man... :p though I do have to say I love some scentless flowers, they have such a mystery to them at times... and as later in the story she lifts her hands towards him like small white orchids.. and orchids are usually scentless.. such amazing imagery though...

and then how she is cruel to the ordinary, commonplace part of him... but I think he is cruel to the ordinary part of her.. they both seem to want to escape the ordinary, and love the extraordinary that the other has to offer but hate the ordinary, petty side that comes along...

in the end though, Coutts is not strong enough, in mind, in personality, in character, to be with Winifred... I think that is all he needed to realize.. he is not the type that can just enjoy life in whatever way pleases them, day by day, hour by hour, even second by second.. he has faint glimmers of that in him, but he can not be a true free spirited hedonist himself... whereas it appears she can...

I could go on forever.. I really do love this story.. even if I despised everything else Lawrence wrote, which of course I don't, but if I did, I would still be a Lawrence fan just for this one story...:D

[Virgil]

Quote by Antiquarian:
I should follow that practice, Virgil. I often comment on things before I've thought them through, then have to make new comments correcting myself.


Hey, Antiquarian, I think we all do that; we are only human and sometimes our minds rush ahead of us.
Well, apparently I'm not human. I didn't do that. :p It seems like everyone has rushed ahead. What happened to starting on Monday?

[Virgil]

I am beginning to think we should have an opinion poll at the top of each story, so we can vote on how we view the charcters such as 'Hate, Like, Undecided, Love.' Hey, you two, this is not the 'Love, Hate' thread.;)

We should have had a poll at the top of each story. That's a great idea. That would have been cool. But we would have to have a different thread for each story.


I would have to direly disagree with Dark Muse, that this is a poorly written work. I think a lot of critics would just cringe, if they heard that. This story was one of Lawrence's most popular and acclaimed ones
This may not be the most complex of stories, but it is definetely not poorly written. Some passages are wonderful. And the climatic scene is incredible.


Antiquarian, the moon image is not easily explained but I think Virgil can explain that better than I can. I did just recently read commentary that the moon to Lawrence represented a coldness and a whiteness and perhaps death. Remember, at this time Lawrence was going through a dire period in his life, having just lost his mother and also lost the woman he was close to...don't think he had relationships with all the women at one time. No, to the contrary; in fact Lawrence very much believed in being married to one woman for life. Of course, in his youth he was struggling to find the right woman, and going through what most of us go through as youths. Therefore it looks like he was a real womanizer but in truth he was not to my eyes.

Anyway, back to the moon, he may have seen the moon in cold terms and the morning star as a favorable omen. So when the moon is mentioned "He says the moon has set, and the evening star," he answered, "Both were out as I came down." The only thing I can make from this, is that the two combined made him hasten to her house or pursue her....he would see the star as the omen saying it was permissable or would be something he should pursue. Because in the next line she says

This indicates that she understood what he was implying. Now I hope we can further understand just what that meant as well. I think that Virgil will have a thing of two to say about the moon. There was a chapter in "Women in Love" that was named "Moony". I will would excerpt some of those passage except it might be a spoiler for you to read the novel. Maybe I will go look the commentary up in the thread that deals with that chapter and the one dealing with 'the morning star'...both would be good resources to examine in relation to this story.

I was thinking of the Women In Love scene too. The sun is an easy symbol for Lawrence: Life, male power. The moon is less clear. It's a source of mystery, the source of femine power.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, that is a good way to put it, Antiquarian - 'to cut him some slack'. Ok, he did wrong by going back, but then you could not just pick up a phone and say 'by the way, how have you been' in those days. It was common to go and see people. I think Winifred kind of lured him in, too or am I reading that wrong? I need to re-examine the text, and exactly what transpired between them, on the way to the train and after. Of course, as soon as the train pulled away, with the other woman abroad, leaving Coutts and Wini alone, then the situation was bound to spiral out of control.

I did not get the impression that Winni lured him there. Though perhaps she had timed her being there to intentinally meet him. The impression I got, he did not know Winni was going to be there untill Laura told him that she was coming.


Fortunately, the fire stopped it, but seconds before this, didn't Coutts begin to come to the realisation and to withdraw from his actions? Maybe Connie and guilt and reality were calling him back. He was like someone under a 'spell' and then suddenly he began to break the spell, himself. Then the lamp was kicked over and that finished it. The blaze totally brought him back to reality.

I mentioned this in one of my other posts, but the reason why he stops is because, he sees Winni does not want any more from him.

I will not repost the entire quote again but it says:


He saw her thus, knew that she wanted no more of him than that kiss.

That is when he grows angry and kicks over the lamp


Cut oneself off from people entirely, just because they are women or men? What if you have a good friend, who is a woman? Lawrence had many good friends who were women and no doubt some of them would have gone for him if he had shown interest. I just don't know. He had this whole group of friends along with Winifred and he went there to listen to them play instruments often in the past (in Lawrence's real life this was true as well and this family were truly close friends). Should he have to totally cut himself off from them, even after he was married?

I do not think he has to cut himself off from his friends, but I think he should have included Connie in with this friends, or at the very least, let her know that he is going to be visiting friends. And you should not be going to the house with old flings if you are engaged.


I think when he makes the sudden detour or delay to stay in this area he does it consciously. I don't think he has fully thought out his intentions or expectations though, not yet. He may have entertained the possibility of a sexual liaison, but how did he know it would even be feasible or possible. In the end, it was not and partly due to his own decision to depart.

But the whole time he makes the little detour, he is trying to justify doing so to himself.

At the begining he says:


"I may just as well" he said to himself. "Stay the night here, where I am used to the place, as go to London. I can't get to Connie's forlorn spot to-night, and I'm tired to death, so why shouldn't I do what is easiest?"

This does not sound to me like a man who is totally innocent, but rather a man trying to convince himself that he is not doing something he should not be doing.


I think the quilt and the reality of Connie pulled him back into the real world, as I said. He was 'swept-up' into her influence (withcraft) the moment he saw Winifred again, as in a dream. This was the whole idea of the story - that she had bewitched him and taken him momentary back to the past - a past that would not work for them, then or now. With the kiss, he snapped out of the dream - funny, it is sort of like the awakening of a sleeping princess, but instead the prince awakens and flees. This is another sort of irony at the end of the story, don't you think?

That is an interesting way to look at it. And yes I did get that feeling of the bewtichment. I do like the idea of the dream. And the fair tale aspect of it.



No, I think she shared in the guilt. I think it was pretty equal that way. Unlike Winifred though Coutts stopped and separated himself from her and left at the end, calling himself a 'clumsy fool'. I think that 'clumsy fool' implied way more than kicking over the lamp and starting a blaze.

I think Coutts holds more of the blame, becasue at any time he could have walked away from her. She did not force him into anything. And from that very first moment with the carriage, he could just as well gotton on the carraige with the German lady and been on his way, but becasue Winni stays to walk, he holds back to put himself in a place to be alone with her.

[Virgil]

Everything is told from his perspective; however, unlike Chekhov's "About Love", there isn't any irony that makes you doubt his story. And, all he tells us about the relationship is how it makes him feel. It's hard to see how he could be biased about his own subjective state.

I've only read this once at this point, but I agree that everything is told from his perpsective, and so we get may get swayed on the moral stance to Coutts's point of view, but I suspect that there is an irony going on and Lawrence is somewhat judgemental to Coutts. Although Lawrence is very frank sexually, he was puritanical in many respects.


Janine, I've come to see Coutts pulled in two directions. On the one hand, he wants a very proper life with a very proper wife like Connie. In that case, his lustful attraction to Winifred would make her a definite "taker of life." (Though, really, Coutts has to take responsibility for his own actions.)

On the other hand, I think Coutts finds a passion and intensity with Winifred that he can't share with Connie. So, in that sense, she's a "giver of life."

Coutts needs to make up his mind which is the more important to him and which he really needs in his life.

I think that's how I see Coutts too.

[Janine]

Just stopping in for a second before I head out again... but I am going to be the black sheep here...:p

Hi islandclimber, glad to see you back, since you love this story so much. I enjoyed reading your post very much. I agree with many things you bring up here, maybe not all and I anticipate you will be in direct opposition to some, your attitude of being permissive and accepting of an open relationship between the three people involved but that is ok. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and so you have stated yours. Of course Dark Muse is going to freak out when she sees it and maybe Antiquarian, too. We can all debate that part as well.



I love Coutts and Winifred as well.. I sympathize with them both entirely.. well I wouldn't even call it sympathize for I do not especially see there actions as wrong... Maybe hedonistic.. but I suppose it depends upon your outlook of what is right and wrong...

Directly addressing this issue I would imagine that men in this time slot were very much sexually frustrated and if they were not inclined to go to brothals (like James Joyce admittedly did), if they found a woman who was unihibited they often had sex with them because of simply being so restained. I don't think it was an easy time for men so I do sympathise with them. Also this was the time of woman's liberation as well and so I think with this woman, Winifred, she is a more modern thinking woman and is freer sexually than Connie would be. It was mentioned that Connie was a nice girl and back then that meant one thing. Now, if you read "Sons and Lovers" you will understand what I mean about this struggle and what Lawrence himself went through. Now going to see Winifred he probably did hope for this sexual encounter - it could be he only needed one passionate night with her and then he would depart forever. I think the way the story ends he stops consciously before it gets to that point. I can't really judge Coutts myself because I don't know how I would feel in his situaton. I imagine at his age I would feel pretty frustrated sexually. The woman the same and also I think with Winifred she is working to get him back. He does crave what she has - the physical side of loving and I don't think he gets this with his betrothed; of course; I am just surmising that, but I think the story implies this difference in the two women, through symbolism, comments, references, etc. Therefore I think their intentions are not ones to be judged. They are acting on instinct and the 'blood' attraction that Lawrence often speaks of. The pull of the moon is evident in the pull from Winifred but in the end this pull does prove to be the cold light of the moon. Winifred matches her will with Coutts when she draws away from him in their moments of passionate contact. She holds back and is like the cold light of the moon. Only the hot blaze of the oil lamp fire brings Coutts completely back into reality.




I find to be two still quite young people in all the glory and power and sexuality that their age comes with... they are just doing what would please them, what makes them happy... and why shouldn't they.. and why shouldn't Coutts, love Connie and at the same time love another... No one here really had a problem with the gallant affairs of the woman in the last story... is that only because her husband knew and was okay with it???

Well, that would be stretching it, in the early 1900's, and I do doubt that would work in the end at all. Someone would suspect and find out and jealousies would insue. There is one thing for certain, about this part of your post - Dark Muse will be livid and write something back to you, about these statements - just predicting, mind you. ;) Well, Coutts might love two women and be undecided who he should marry or end up with, but he would not act on it, without adverse circumstances. I don't think the women, in this story, would be willing to go along with that idea.

Yes, well every story is different and the two in the other story had been married for a time, and were both bored with each other - quite a different scenerio there, islandclimber. Your rendition here sounds like the '1970's free love and sex, drugs and rock and roll' period - I was in college then! :lol:



but still, if Coutts wants to go on passionately with Winifred, while marrying Connie, then why shouldn't he? if that is what makes him happy, and if Connie is happy with him, and if Winifred is okay with this setup.. I say do what makes you happy, and if others have a problem with that, well, then they just don't have to be a part of your life... Connie can leave him if she finds out...

Really what I wrote above applies to this, also. In actuality Coutts (Lawrence) does break with his finance.




In this story though, I think Coutts is very unsure of himself and what exactly it is that he wants.. he really has no idea... he is very conflicted... as mentioned in earlier posts.. Does he love the sun or the moon.. and maybe a combination... and he returns to his former lover just to see... I love the strength of character of Winifred, I find she is a powerful woman, strong, and knows what she wants... whether she is always certain around Coutts, well that is part of loving and hating at the same time, which they both have feel for one another, but she has such character...

Very conflicted I believe....I think the moon represents the cold light and a sort of death of self. The sun is the healing light and the evening and morning star is usually the stars, Lawrence saw as his good omens. She is powerful and yet this is what drives him from her in the end. She is powerful like his Lawrence's mother and strong willed. Yes, the love-hate aspect is definitely a 'duality' that surfaces often in Lawrence's works, don't you think?




I love her sarcasm on Coutts engagement, and her thought that it is a monstrosity that he could marry for almost no apparent reason other than something to do it seems... and then their discussion on her fog of symbols, and candles in that fog.. the images elicited by this story are so abstract and so wonderful... and then the statement saying she would never buy scentless flowers just as she would never love a man only for being handsome.. I love this comparison, a scentless flower to a shallow man... :p though I do have to say I love some scentless flowers, they have such a mystery to them at times... and as later in the story she lifts her hands towards him like small white orchids.. and orchids are usually scentless.. such amazing imagery though...

Yes, I love the abstract images tooo like the scentless flowers and the candles - even the candles that Coutts lights in Winifred's house - the piano candles. I love the descriptive writing. It is so lovely and so beautiful describing the night and the skies at various times. The scentless flowers are mysterious in this story, as well. I do like that - "a scentless flower to a shallow man" - that is an interesting idea. I think he it indicates something to me; that Winifred does not view Coutts as a shallow person but someone with depth and complexity.



and then how she is cruel to the ordinary, commonplace part of him... but I think he is cruel to the ordinary part of her.. they both seem to want to escape the ordinary, and love the extraordinary that the other has to offer but hate the ordinary, petty side that comes along...

Maybe hate the ordinary everyday part of each. I can see your point here and your observation makes sense. They could not exist in the 'everyday' sense.



in the end though, Coutts is not strong enough, in mind, in personality, in character, to be with Winifred... I think that is all he needed to realize.. he is not the type that can just enjoy life in whatever way pleases them, day by day, hour by hour, even second by second.. he has faint glimmers of that in him, but he can not be a true free spirited hedonist himself... whereas it appears she can...

This part, you bring up some good points. Coutts is torn and he is very weak in his mind as to what it is he really wants in a woman at this point in his life. I think, truly, he would be bored with Connie and that would end up being a very dead and stagnant marriage. I don't know if Lawrence would advocate them being free spirited heonistic because in actuality Lawrence did not accept that sort of thinking and wanted to remain faithful to one person - his spouse - until he died. It did not exactly end up that way on his wife's part, but it is also been conjectured that he did have an affair or tried to have one towards the end of their marriage.
I think this idea of hedonism would be better described by Lawrence's idea of his blood philosophy which is some thing Virgil is much better explaining than I am. I just know it instinctively but he knows how to work it.




I could go on forever.. I really do love this story.. even if I despised everything else Lawrence wrote, which of course I don't, but if I did, I would still be a Lawrence fan just for this one story...:D

Yes, it is a very good story; I think so, too.

[Virgil]

What can I say, for me betrayal and infidelity is the one unforgivable sin.

Spoken like a true Italian-American. ;) I still remember you're a relative of Crazy Joe Gallo. :lol: God ep the boyfriend that cheats on you. :p :D


And the way I see it, the engagement period is not the period of deciding if you are or are not with the right person, that is what dating is for, presumably once you propose you have decided you want to be with that person.
Yes. Lawrence could have easily written this story without mentioning Constance (that's a very particular name, something that Coutts does not adhere to) or without mentioning that Coutts is engaged. The very fact that he does sets up a moral stance. Now Lawrence does this to either undermine the morality or slant our opinion of Coutts. Islandclimber I think believes the former, while Dark Muse thinks the latter. I need to read the story once again before I consolidate my opinion.

[Dark Muse]

Spoken like a true Italian-American. ;) I still remember you're a relative of Crazy Joe Gallo. :lol: God ep the boyfriend that cheats on you. :p :D


LOL :p

I cannot aruge with you there, and for once I am not aruging with anyone in this thread :lol:

[Janine]

"Connie can leave him if she finds out."

Well, you're admitting Coutts is being very deceitful, and being very deceitful is wrong.

He shouldn't do it because it's deceitful and it's wrong to be deceitful to one you love or are committed to. It's wrong to betray someone's trust. By his guilt and thoughts, we know, without a doubt, Connie would NOT be happy with it. And while Coutts and Connie are not yet married, Coutts has committed himself to her.

Honestly, I don't think anyone who defends his betrayal of Connie would feel the same way if someone they loved were betraying them, and then said, "Well, you can just leave."

The reason I can cut Coutts some slack is because he knows he's doing the wrong thing and he feels guilty and bad about it. If he had told Winifred, "Well, Connie can just leave if she doesn't like us having a little fun," I'd hate the guy more than DM does, and she seems to hate him quite a bit already.

Antiquarian, good post and your brought up some good points here. I don't agree with island about - 'she can just leave'...No, that is not too nice a thing. Nor, that they should just go about doing as the please, Winifred and Coutts, with no consequences. I agree that he is doing wrong - Coutts - and he does know it, as he is being tempted by miss 'witchy-woman' every step of the way...of course, I don't blame her, he went there and sent her the message (by his presence) that he wanted her to egg him on. I do think that Connie, most likely, is not the woman for Coutts and he knows it subconsiously or maybe even consciously - why else would he be so unsure of himself and take the detour to the other woman?

:lol: Yes, Dark Muse, undoubtably, is going to freak-out, when she reads island's post. That should be interesting. ;)

Anyway, I have been desperately trying to get off this computer and watch a movie or something. I am so addicted now to this thread, and the movie thread is fun, too. This thread is hyper-active already and I just hate to miss anything.:lol: I think I am going to depart now and rest up on my sofa - my poor brain is aching. I will re-read that commentary tonight before I fall asleep - maybe that way it will sink into my brain.

[Virgil]

That is true of today; however, in either time periods, people are allowed an 'out' if they truly decide the marriage is not for them or right for the couple. I knew someone recently who called off her wedding. It was not an easy decision to make, but I told her it was her life and she had to please herself and not do what everyone else expected her to do. As it turned out, it is for the better. I don't think that is betrayal, to decide not to marry, after one is engaged. My neighbor and his girl friend broke off an engagement, of about 5 years, and married other people. Better to decide before the wedding, than afterward.

Except that Coutts is not in a quandry. He's not even ambivilant about Connie. He's sneakily seeking out this old girl friend. Where do we even get that he's unsure about Connie?


Give him time; I believe he was going to tell her had he seen Winifred and realised he still loved her. He only went there as a social visit and it turned into more than that, but then the fire stopped him and brought him to his senses.
Oh I don't think it was just a social visit. There is a passage where they discuss why do people do what they do. This was no accident. Frakly I think you're reading into the story there Janine. There is no evidence that he was going to tell Connie anything.

[Dark Muse]

I love Coutts and Winifred as well.. I sympathize with them both entirely.. well I wouldn't even call it sympathize for I do not especially see there actions as wrong... Maybe hedonistic.. but I suppose it depends upon your outlook of what is right and wrong...

I would feel sorry for your girlfriend.

I do not think any man or woman would be fine with their fiance going to the house alone of an old lover, with the full intent of starting up an affair with them just for old times sake.


I find to be two still quite young people in all the glory and power and sexuality that their age comes with... they are just doing what would please them, what makes them happy... and why shouldn't they.. and why shouldn't Coutts, love Connie and at the same time love another... No one here really had a problem with the gallant affairs of the woman in the last story... is that only because her husband knew and was okay with it???

So self-happiness at the expense of everyone else?

The difference from the last story is that indeed it was completely open and honest. The wife hid nothing from her husband and he accepted what was going on. In this way the two of them together made a lifestyle choice. He could have divorced her if he was unhappy about it, but he choose to live with things as they are.

In this story Coutts is clearly going behind the back of Connie in what he is doing. He is betraying her trust and her love of him. There is no indication that she has any idea as to what is going on. And it seems quite clear from Coutt's actions that she does not know anything about what he is up to.


but still, if Coutts wants to go on passionately with Winifred, while marrying Connie, then why shouldn't he? if that is what makes him happy, and if Connie is happy with him, and if Winifred is okay with this setup.. I say do what makes you happy, and if others have a problem with that, well, then they just don't have to be a part of your life... Connie can leave him if she finds out...

Connie would not be happy if she knew what he was up to with Winnie, and that is completely unfair and quite cruel to think that her husband should marry her while he has ever intent of being unfaithful to her, and if she does not like it, than it is her problem.

He should break the engagement with her, and come clean.

Not to mention the fact, that it was not so easy for women to just leave their husbands back than. Not to mention that being a divorced could make it difficult for her to marry again, even if she herself did no wrong in the marriage

[Janine]

Except that Coutts is not in a quandry. He's not even ambivilant about Connie. He's sneakily seeking out this old girl friend. Where do we even get that he's unsure about Connie?

Virgil, did you hear me mention your name again? I was doing my witch-craft on you, again...like summoning the dead. :lol: Anyway, I felt it from his insecurity about his relationship in these lines and his sketchy way of not really committing by saying he would marry when he could afford it. To me that was putting it off and using that as an excuse not to take the final steps to marry.


"And are you still engaged to your Constance?" she asked of Coutts, with a touch of mockery this time. Coutts nodded.
"And how is she?" asked the widow.
"I believe she is very well--unless my delay has upset her," said Coutts, his tongue between his teeth. It hurt him to give pain to his fiancée, and yet he did it wilfully.
"Do you know, she always reminds me of a Bunbury--I call her your Miss Bunbury," Laura laughed.
Coutts did not answer.
"We missed you so much when you first went away," Laura began, reestablishing the proprieties.
"Thank you," he said. She began to laugh wickedly.
"On Friday evenings," she said, adding quickly: "Oh, and this is Friday evening, and Winifred is coming just as she used to--how long ago?--ten months?"
"Ten months," Coutts corroborated.
"Did you quarrel with Winifred?" she asked suddenly.
"Winifred never quarrels," he answered.
"I don't believe she does. Then why did you go away? You are such a puzzle to me, you know--and I shall never rest till I have had it out of you. Do you mind?"
"I like it," he said, quietly, flashing a laugh at her.
She laughed, then settled herself in a dignified, serious way.
"No, I can't make you out at all--nor can I Winifred. You are a pair! But it's you who are the real wonder. When are you going to be married?"
"I don't know--When I am sufficiently well off."

Then later when he is alone with Winifred in the night I think they bring up something about Connie. I just get the impression that relationship is not really a set one, even though he claims to be engaged to her.


Oh I don't think it was just a social visit. There is a passage where they discuss why do people do what they do. This was no accident. Frakly I think you're reading into the story there Janine. There is no evidence that he was going to tell Connie anything.

I know, you are right. I should not have used the word 'social' for visit. I am wrong. Yes, I do know of that passage and also the part about 'Free Will' that the old man and Laura mention momentarily. Yes, I know too much of the background of this story and you are right, it is going against me being objective and so I have to look at it in a different light now. But instinctively I still do not think either woman is right for Coutts. He is a confused young man. I didn't ever think he would tell her but wonder what he will say happened to his hands. I was just kidding when I ended my post with that question. ;)

I read in my book that this story is related in someways to 'The Shades of Spring' and I was thinking about it when I read it first time. There are some parellels and some reversals.

[Dark Muse]

Antiquarian,

Hehe thank you.

I almost feel like Coutts is on trail, and I am the prosecutor. But I cannot help it, I just have very strong opinions about things.

[Janine]

Great post, DM.

If my husband did what Coutts did, well, he would not be my husband. LOL

I second that! Good post DM, and very well put.

I know, Antiquarian - was all wrong about the social visit thing. That is not really what I was getting at when I said it. Can we all just drop that idea as my mistake. I am guilty!:(

So, does everyone think that Coutts just sought out the old girlfriend for sex? Seriously, is that all they had going for them? I am just curious to know what you all think. Was there more attraction between them than the physical?

Also, let me ask this - do you all think now that Coutts will go through with his marriage to Connie?

[Virgil]

Amazing we're all on together tonight. I'm not going to comment again until I re-read the story. :) Good night ladies.

[Dark Muse]

So, does everyone think that Coutts just sought out the old girlfriend for sex? Seriously, is that all they had going for them? I am just curious to know what you all think. Was there more attraction between them than the physical?

That is a tough one, I do not know if thier past relationship was purely a physcial one, but I think that they were much more of a physcial attraction/relationship, than he and Connie.

There was one conversation at the end, that might suggest they were primarly a sexual attraction, as they both quite clearly seem agreed upon the fact the could certaintly never marry each other.


You know, Winifred, we should only drive each other into insantiy, you and I: become abmormal.

"Well," she said, "and even so, why the other?"

"My marrige--I do not know. Instinct"

"One has so many instincts," she laughed bitterly

Than later one he says:


"You know you only like a wild-goose chase"


Also, let me ask this - do you all think now that Coutts will go through with his marriage to Connie?

This is a tough call. But the way it ended, I do not know if I can see him going through with the marriage. I am not quite sure if he would acutally confess to Connie, but I think it might be over for him.

[Janine]

Janine, I think the relationship between Coutts and Winifred was purely physical.

Not so sure of it entirely,since DM points out the line where he says she is always a wild goose chase. Is she just a tease or has she truly been physical with him in the biblical sense?


No, I don't think he'd go through with his marriage to Connie. I would think he'd go to her with those burned hands and confess his guilt and the marriage would be off. I get the idea that that's what happened anyway.

Neither do I. I think that is precisely what he would do or lie about his hands
and then break off the relationship in the end.


That is a tough one, I do not know if thier past relationship was purely a physcial one, but I think that they were much more of a physcial attraction/relationship, than he and Connie.

Ok, I will buy that.


There was one conversation at the end, that might suggest they were primarly a sexual attraction, as they both quite clearly seem agreed upon the fact the could certaintly never marry each other.

Ok, that might be a clue.


a tough call. But the way it ended, I do not know if I can see him going through with the marriage. I am not quite sure if he would acutally confess to Connie, but I think it might be over for him.

I think this killed it for him. I think it will be over. I don't think he truly loves Connie, not as he should.


Amazing we're all on together tonight. I'm not going to comment again until I re-read the story. :) Good night ladies.

Yeah, funny huh...we are the night shift...and the morning shift and the day shift....we are all kind of addicted I believe!:lol:

Night night, Virgie! Night everyone - Dark Muse and Antiquarian, whomever else is awake! Sleep well all....:yawnb: It has been fun today.

[Janine]

I meant purely physical in the sense of attraction, only, Janine. I don't think Coutts and Winifred had ever been physically intimate. Sorry, my mistake. I should have more clear. I do think Coutts intends to break it off with Connie as he knows he couldn't be faithful to her and he wants to be faithful to a woman. I think his horror comes from the fact that he almost wasn't. (Well, in a sense, he did betray her.)

Antiquarian, is that really you? I thought someone stole you avatar today and mine, too. I don't think I have time today for that game. Maybe I will just plain change mine today to one of my own photos. I hate to be 'sour grapes', but 'just what I don't need today - more confusion in my life. I am wondering why you still have yours, as it was. Did you refrain from changing it? I thought it was you that stole mine. ;) :lol:

Anyway, this is so curious - I just came online and as I was waiting for this forum and this page to load, I was reading about Helen Corke, and Louie in my Brenda Maddox biography book and about how very frustrated Lawrence was at this time. He had been ill (often in bed) most of the year and it talks a lot about his restlessness and sexual frustrations, too. Geez, I will have to scan this and sent it to you; it is good reading, interesting.
Anyway, apparently neither woman would give into his sexual advances. Also, it is stated that he was all the time seeing Helen, when he was engaged to Louie. I think they both knew about each other for a number of years. The two woman may have even been friends, as well. I don't think this means he was seeing Helen 'romantically', definitely not 'intimately'; they simply had never stopped their contact and they were good friends; at least, this is how I am perceiving it. So to go on, he still kept contact with Helen, until one day he did propose having sex with her; of which she flatly turned him down, igniting a lot of resentment or rage towards her and towards the other woman as well (Louie). The biographer, Brenda Maddox states:

He still intended to go through with the marriage, but seethed at the price men were expected to pay for socially sanctioned sex. Helen Corke bore the brunt.
Then a paragraph later she continues:

With a frankness he never accorded Louie, he told Helen that, although he could never completely love either her or Louie, Louie at least would leave him free. "And I cannot marry save where I am not held.*"


* this last line would refer back to how he felt about his mother and her control over him. Don't read this as being totally free to go off and have sexual liasons while he is married. Lawrence was very much against that after the marriage vowels. He held marriage as sacrad and throught monogomously.

But Lawrence was young, sexually frustrated and was very bitter at this time and he had been ill for a year (even fearing the dreaded TB), so he most likely, in this anger and anxiety had built to a boiling point; he was not altogether thinking clearly, either. Brenda Maddox goes on to say:


By now marriage and money were so firmly entwined in his mind that, in a vow written at nearly one o'clock in the morning, he spat out his acceptance that women had their "market price": "I will never ask for sex relationship again, never, unless I can give the dirty coin of marriage: unless it be a prostitude, whom I can love because I'm sorry for her.


It also mentions how Louie who represents Connie, who we know little about, and she did nag him about various things - whether he drank, smoked, cursed or would attend church with her, once they were married. She also nagged him about money; quite a bit until it seemed to come to a head when Lawrence lend a good friend money for his wife to have a gynecological operation. I get the sense he knew that this relationship between Louie and himself was not going to work out, in the end. Her parents were against the marriage, from the start; they thought of Lawrence as an "irreligious rascal".

I thought this little bit of background might help us understand how Lawrence, represented in the story by Coutts, was thinking at the time he wrote this story. I will try to scan this part of the book and send to you, Antiquarian - you will enjoy reading it.

Ok, asside from this, last night I read more of the story - basically up until the part when the little house concert begins. I want to post some text tomorrow and point out things that now have stood out to me clearer.

I also read over the Michael Black commentary and hope to share much of that with all of you. I think you will get much insight from that commentary.

Now, I was thinking of our discussion so far and wondering why we keep getting stuck on deciding if we 'like, dislike, hate, love' the characters. I think we have spend a number of pages hashing this about, and I wondered if we could try and look at other aspects of the story and see just what motivated the characters to 'act and react' as they do. There is also, so much beautiful writing and symbolism in this story. I love the way the evening and night skies have been described. Those stand out to me particularly. Also the floral descriptions are lovely and seem to me very meaningful.

Gee wiz...I was thinking how poor Coutts has been 'crucified' right here in this very thread, and he didn't commit as bad a crime as slitting throats in "Sweeny Todd"; people are giving Sweeny more sympathy than poor Coutts; they seem to even worship the character. I wonder if Johnny Depp played Coutts, if we would all sympathise with him a little more. Everyone says - well ST had a good excuse for getting revenge. It is the same with the trends these days in many movies, I notice and much sympathy for dark characters, with excuses to do all kinds of outrageous things.
Then I had a funny thought, when Coutts sees the moon and thinks about 'sacrifice', I wonder if we are not the ones with the sharp blade doing the poor guy in. :bawling: Let's cut the guy some slack today...no pun intended...:)

[Quark]

There is also, so much beautiful writing and symbolism in this story. I love the way the evening and night skies have been described. Those stand out to me particularly. Also the floral descriptions are lovely and seem to me very meaningful.

I hadn't noticed the symbolism in the sky descriptions. I'm trying to remember them now. We get one at the beginning, and another when they're on the dark hill. Are there any others? What do they symbolize?

[Dark Muse]

Gee wiz...I was thinking how poor Coutts has been 'crucified' right here in this very thread, and he didn't commit as bad a crime as slitting throats in "Sweeny Todd"; people are giving Sweeny more sympathy than poor Coutts; they seem to even worship the character. I wonder if Johnny Depp played Coutts, if we would all sympathise with him a little more. Everyone says - well ST had a good excuse for getting revenge. It is the same with the trends these days in many movies, I notice and much sympathy for dark characters, with excuses to do all kinds of outrageous things

What can I say to me slitting the throats of people whom have wronged you is forgivable and understandable. I am not really against revenge.

But to betray someone who you have made a promise to and who loves you, well I cannot abide by that.


Then I had a funny thought, when Coutts sees the moon and thinks about 'sacrifice', I wonder if we are not the ones with the sharp blade doing the poor guy in. :bawling: Let's cut the guy some slack today...no pun intended...:)


I do not think I can do that. I can't really bring myself to feel sorry for him.


Hi I'm not in favor of men having romantic liaisons of any kind while engaged, but I understand Coutts, and have kind of come to like him. After all, he was horrified at his own tendencies and he did want to remain true to Connie. He had a conscience.

I do not know if I completely agree with the fact that he wanted to remain true to Connie. For if he did, he would not have gone back alone to Winnie's house, and the only reason I think, that they did not end up in bed together, is because he realized Winni herself did not want that from him.

[Janine]

Hi Janine,

It's really me. You'll discover what happened to our avatars in a little while. Don't change yours, okay?

Now I think I remember, Virgil stole mine.:lol: Someone stole yours, I think. I was going to steal his, but someone took it already. Are you going to change yours? I don't really have the time today to change mine, and besides I am going to be mighty confused in threads, when people go switching avatars....Glory bee!...what next? I actually, don't find it that amusing. I know that sounds crabby, but I am trying to be less confused and not more so.:confused:


Thanks for all the background information. That does make the story much clearer, though I still don't know why Coutts was so surprised to see the anemones on the piano.

Oh good, glad that helped. I found it interesting. Thing is I start reading a few pages of the bio and I want to read it all again...it is fascinting.
Yes, we still have to figure that one out, about the red flowers; you sure are curious about that, aren't you? Well, poppies represent soldiers who have fallen/died and the idea of remembrance after death. I wonder if it could have anything to do 'subconsciously' with Lawrence's mother just dying, her control over him in life/now her death and the fact, that he sees Winifred as a person who would have control over him (like his mother did), which would be deadly to him. Also his mother played the piano and now they sit on the piano and not the table.
Hey,Dark Muse, do poppies signify anything to do with witchcraft? Red could also signify the 'blood-consciousness' for Lawrence. I don't definitively know quite yet, but I will try researching it for you, A. That is really bugging you, I can tell....and on the piano...it is curious...I admit.



I'm not in favor of men having romantic liaisons of any kind while engaged, but I understand Coutts, and have kind of come to like him. After all, he was horrified at his own tendencies and he did want to remain true to Connie. He had a conscience.

Well, I don't approve either. I know for a fact, that the real engagement did not work out and of course we can plainly see why. I didn't think it would; neither did I think this one would in the story would work. If Coutts was truly in-love with Connie, he would not be straying from her. I am glad, Antiquarian, that you are not so judgemental about him now. I don't think we have the right, to just say I like or I dislike him. There is much that does not meet the eye here.
I sympathise with young men like Lawrence. In actuality, he was a virgin into his early to mid 20's. Can you imagine how frustrated men were? Woman must have been so, as well. Also, I see him as confused and more so in his wanting to see Helen. He must have been an emotional mess, when he pursued this action.
He most certainly did have a 'conscience.' Also, to think about it and how many men and women were stuck in loveless marriages back then, because they did commit to a woman/man eventually and did not truly know her/him, not just intimately, but emotionally, as well. It was a 'smaller', more 'contained' world back then and men and women did not have the broad choices they have now, especially since they were expected to pick a 'proper' spouse. The time and areas they lived in made it very limited for them.
Apparently, much is lacking with his relationship to Connie, as it was with Louie Burrows. I think Lawrence would have perceived Coutts this way and this story this way, as well. In this story, he is actually working out his own questions and confusion on women and sex.



Quark, I remember the stars and the moon, but I'll have to go back and read the descriptions of the sky. I did love the floral descriptions, though.


Quark and Antiquarian, Yes, there is some symbolism in the two descriptions of the skies, but I will get to that later on and progress from the beginning images and later talk about the ending. The florals were lovely and I think they too, have much symbolism embodied in them...they both also have forshadowing. I will try and post the beginning text tonight so we can discuss it tomorrow. A, I particularly like the one when he said the house had a white blanket of alyssum....I was thinking that idea of a blanket would be comforting to a person who had been ill for so long. Actually, it says "the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls"...that is so beautiful and inviting, comforting.


What can I say to me slitting the throats of people whom have wronged you is forgivable and understandable. I am not really against revenge.

No, Dark Muse, you misunderstand. It is "Sweeny Todd" who is doing the slitting of throats and everyone says they feel sorry for him, the serial killer. Same on TV now days, one of my friends said that she liked "Dextor" and it deals with a serial killer, getting revenge on bad people. Sorry, I don't support that or revenge in, anyway. Killing is horrible, anyway you view it, in my opinion. It is the taking of life; and who made someone them judge, and jury and even God to decide it is right to do?



But to betray someone who you have made a promise to and who loves you, well I cannot abide by that.

So he is suppose to go and marry someone he does not truly love? No, well that would be just as big if not worse a crime for both of them? Better to find out now how he feels about life than pay for it later.
One circumstance cannot dictate another. All cases are different. I agree I can't abide by people breaking a promise but it would be better than sticking to one and being miserable all your married life.



I do not think I can do that. I can't really bring myself to feel sorry for him.

Then don't, but just don't concentrate so much, in the story, about that one factor. There is much in this story to discuss and agree on. I don't really like all this hassling in this thread. I guess I like keeping it somewhat peaceful in here. So we all disagree on Coutts...let's just get on with the rest of the story elements, that I already mentioned. If anyone doesn't like this story they don't have to discuss it at all. We all have free will in here. I like the story and so do others, so we should discuss the writing and other things, not just judging the character of the various people in the tale.



I do not know if I completely agree with the fact that he wanted to remain true to Connie. For if he did, he would not have gone back alone to Winnie's house, and the only reason I think, that they did not end up in bed together, is because he realized Winni herself did not want that from him.

I don't think he did at all and I don't honestly think he truly loved her. It would have been a loveless marriage had they gone through with their engagement. Maybe Coutts was looking for a good excuse to break it off and even accepting his own guilt, would be better than being married to a woman, he knew deep-down, he did not love or want to spend the rest of his life with. At least that is my take on the whole thing.

[Dark Muse]

No, Dark Muse, you misunderstand. It is "Sweeny Todd" who is doing the slitting of throats and everyone says they feel sorry for him, the serial killer. Same on TV now days, one of my friends said that she liked "Dextor" and it deals with a serial killer, getting revenge on bad people. Sorry, I don't support that or revenge in, anyway. Killing is horrible, anyway you view it, in my opinion. It is the taking of life; and who made someone them judge, and jury and even God to decide it is right to do?

I think you misunderstand me. I know Sweeny Todd is the one doing the killing, but in the movie, he is slitting the throats of poeple whom have done something to him first. It is not just random killing. He suffered a horrible wrong, and is avenging himself.



So he is suppose to go and marry someone he does not truly love? No, well that would be just as big if not worse a crime for both of them? Better to find out now how he feels about life than pay for it later.
One circumstance cannot dictate another. All cases are different. I agree I can't abide by people breaking a promise but it would be better than sticking to one and being miserable all your married life.?

I never said that. I said he should either be faithful to her, or tell her the truth, not sneek behind her back to see his ex-lover.

[Virgil]

Do you notice anything strange, Janine? :p :p

[Virgil]

Now I think I remember, Virgil stole mine.:lol: Someone stole yours, I think. I was going to steal his, but someone took it already. Are you going to change yours? I don't really have the time today to change mine, and besides I am going to be mighty confused in threads, when people go switching avatars....Glory bee!...what next? I actually, don't find it that amusing. I know that sounds crabby, but I am trying to be less confused and not more so.:confused:


:lol: I'm sorry Janine. I was actually going to take Antiquarian's but my wife said to take yours. Actually I think you would have been more confused if I took Anti's. :D

[Dark Muse]

Janine and DM, while I don't condone at all what Coutts did, I can understand why he did it and cut him a bit of slack. After all, he's human, he makes mistakes just like we do, and Lawrence was only twenty-five when he wrote the story. I don't have to like or condone what he did in order to be able to understand and forgive. I wouldn't do it, but that's me. Winifred must bear some of the guilt, I think, as she didn't put a stop to his flirting.

DM, you're right, Coutts should have not given in to temptation, but he's a human being and fiction is, for the most part, about the failings of human beings, not the times they managed to remain above all wrong. Not trying to say Coutts or Winifred were right in their actions, they weren't, but they are human.

I just do not think that just becasue someone his human is a good enough excuse to forgive them of all wrong that they do. As they say, often doing the right thing is the hard thing, but that dosen't mean you should just ignore it because it is easier not to.

Though Winni should not have been flitring with someone who was committed to another woman, even if they were only engaged and not married, Winni was not the one who has a responseablity to Connie.

And Winni is ultimately the one who prevented Coutts from going any farther with it than he did.

[Virgil]

So, does everyone think that Coutts just sought out the old girlfriend for sex? Seriously, is that all they had going for them? I am just curious to know what you all think. Was there more attraction between them than the physical?


Now that I've read it a second time, I'm going to have to fined some way to understand this story. To be frank, I'm a little confused. To answer Janine's question, he had the opportunity for sex, but actually runs away. He doesn't take it up or follow through, dependng on who is doing the seducing. If he is trying to seduce Winifred, then he doesn't follow through. If Winifred is trying to seduce him, which I'm now leaning to as a reading, then he doesn't take it up. I think the inerpretation of the story rests on who is seducing whom. What are your feelings on this?

[Dark Muse]

Now that I've read it a second time, I'm going to have to fined some way to understand this story. To be frank, I'm a little confused. To answer Janine's question, he had the opportunity for sex, but actually runs away. He doesn't take it up or follow through, dependng on who is doing the seducing. If he is trying to seduce Winifred, then he doesn't follow through. If Winifred is trying to seduce him, which I'm now leaning to as a reading, then he doesn't take it up. I think the inerpretation of the story rests on who is seducing whom. What are your feelings on this?

Personally I think Winni is the one that really puts an end to thier meeting together, becasue it says that he realized all she wanted from him was that kiss, and that is when he starts the fire and than flees the scene


That is true, DM.

Oh, I see both sides and feel so stuck in the middle! LOL

I think we should discuss some of the symbolism and imagery now. :) Janine, you're our leader, what do you say?

Yes I agree, I think on the Coutts issue we should all just agree to disagree, we all have our opinons about him, I am in favor of exploring other asepcts of the story now

[Virgil]

That is true, DM.

Oh, I see both sides and feel so stuck in the middle! LOL

I think we should discuss some of the symbolism and imagery now. :) Janine, you're our leader, what do you say?

Before we get to symbolism and imagery, can we start by understanding the structure? It's not complicated, but it is interesting.

I divide the story into four parts. The first part is the gathering at Laura's house of the various guests, culminating with the music scene. The second part is the journey home, where Coutts and Wini split off from the German Lady and walk home. Here Lawrence has the opportunity give the moon imagery. The third part is where WIni invites Coutts into her home. And finally the fourth part is the climatic kiss. Lawrence seems to take the characters through a journey. He could have had the climatic kiss occur at Laura's house in some side room, or he could have had Coutts go straight to Wini's house on some pretense or he could have had them get to her home in a matter of a sentence or two. The journey is unneccesary structurally. So there is the opportunity to integrate thematic elements in that scene.


Personally I think Winni is the one that really puts an end to thier meeting together, becasue it says that he realized all she wanted from him was that kiss, and that is when he starts the fire and than flees the scene

Well, it gets interupted by the flaming lamp. When a woman invites a man into her home at eleven at night (she invites him in), induces a passionate kiss (she moans and goes near "him like a suddenly risen flower"), and "offers her throat," I would think she's inviting him to something more. ;)

[Dark Muse]

But all Winifred wanted was a kiss, and she got that. Coutts wanted more, but he could see Winifred only wanted the kiss, bolding is mine:

The hurt became so great it brought him out of the reeling stage to distinct consciousness. She clipped her lips, drew them away, leaving him her throat. Already she had had enough. He opened his eyes as he bent with his mouth on her neck, and was startled; there stood the objects of the room, stark; there, close below his eyes, were the half-sunk lashes of the woman, swooning on her unnatural ebb of passion. He saw her thus, knew that she wanted no more of him than that kiss. And the heavy form of this woman hung upon him. His whole body ached like a swollen vein, with heavy intensity, while his heart grew dead with misery and despair. This woman gave him anguish and a cutting-short like death; to the other woman he was false. As he shivered with suffering, he opened his eyes again, and caught sight of the pure ivory of the lamp. His heart flashed with rage.

Winifred just wanted to toy with him. He is the one who wanted more, but then he's angry with himself for wanting her.

The fire starts because he kicks over the lamp out of anger when he sees that Winni really did not want to go any further with him

[Virgil]

The fire starts because he kicks over the lamp out of anger when he sees that Winni really did not want to go any further with him


But remember, we have only his word for how Winifred felt. We never get Winifred's viewpoint. I agree with DM. Coutts started the fire out his rage at Winifred not wanting more.

Good point, but she hangs on him despite it all. I don't know. Is Wini some sort of temptress to destroy his fedility but not satisfy him? What are her motivations?

[Dark Muse]

*Gasp* how could you? *points to avatar*


Good point, but she hangs on him despite it all. I don't know. Is Wini some sort of temptress to destroy his fedility but not satisfy him? What are her motivations?

In a way I think she wants to prove to him that he really should not get married, that he is not fit to be married, and that such is not what he really wants. It seems to me, that she was trying to prove to him that they can never truly escape each other, even if they admit they cannot live together either.

Neither one of them were really meant to be married.

[Janine]

Now that I've read it a second time, I'm going to have to fined some way to understand this story. To be frank, I'm a little confused. To answer Janine's question, he had the opportunity for sex, but actually runs away. He doesn't take it up or follow through, dependng on who is doing the seducing. If he is trying to seduce Winifred, then he doesn't follow through. If Winifred is trying to seduce him, which I'm now leaning to as a reading, then he doesn't take it up. I think the inerpretation of the story rests on who is seducing whom. What are your feelings on this?

Hi Virgil who looks like Janine; enjoying my avatar today, Virg? You robber you!:lol:

Well, this is what I did; I went out for awhile; I had to go do some errands. I was hoping to get away from all this arguing/disagreeing and instead I have to admit, I did mull it all over, when I was out. So I am back and I can say only one thing...I was getting perturbed about obsessing on this whole question of 'who is right and who is wrong'. We wouldn't even have a story, if no one did wrong. We would have this nice guy, Coutts, who was very upstanding and followed all the rules of being engaged. The conflicts in this story are what make it interesting, and like many stories throughout literature, conflict and deception are common themes, along with many others. There would not be many good stories, actually, if no one did any wrong. Why would we need them? It is almost laughable, that no one condempted Syson in 'The Shades of Spring', when he went to see his former girlfriend; for God's sake he was married at the time, but it was unhappily. It seems that wasn't as 'unforgivable' a gesture, as this one where Coutts slips and goes 'spur of the moment' and sees his old girlfriend, on an impulse. Also, no one seems to condemn the officer who falls for "Anna Karenina", nor the man who has sex with an under-aged women in "Lolita"; this list in literature could go on and on...

The bottom line is this - lets just drop this whole disagreeing part. It truly is insignificant. It happened and we have to deal with it now. This whole constant bickering back and forth, about how we view the two main characters and their code of morals, is senseless.

Virgil and Antiquarian both asked what we should do next. I feel I should post some text and underline key words, phrases and we should talk about the writing....it is so very beautiful and even spring-like.

Dark Muse, I agree that we will disagree forever, on this issue, and the other one you commented on about revenge, which hit a nerve with me, I admit. I am a very non-violent person, so I just could not understand that way of thinking. But, that is irrelevant, and I was only trying to show, how things far worse than breaking a trust, are sometimes applauded.

So everyone asked me what we should do next and I think first, we should all stop being so 'judgemental', because we really are not learning a thing about this fine story, by going around in circles. Instead, we are just discussing our own ideas of morality.


I see the story in 3 distinct sections, not four. Usually Lawrence uses three but I will check that over tonight in the text.

Dark Muse and Antiquarian, I don't agree with this at all.
The fire starts because he kicks over the lamp out of anger when he sees that Winni really did not want to go any further with him

It was not deliberately set, why would he set fire to her house? No, I don't believe that one minute. The text reads:


A sudden involuntary blow of his foot, and he sent the lamp-stand spinning.
How can something 'involuntary' be intentional? I am lost here.

[Virgil]

*Gasp* how could you? *points to avatar*

:lol: I'm feeling impish tonight. :p


In a way I think she wants to prove to him that he really should not get married, that he is not fit to be married, and that such is not what he really wants. It seems to me, that she was trying to prove to him that they can never truly escape each other, even if they admit they cannot live together either.

Neither one of them were really meant to be married.
Good thought. You might be right.

[Janine]

Did you have to do that Virgil? I am confused enough as it is.

Did anyone even notice my post, since you had my avy first? I think I am going to bed. I have had it on this thread today!


Good point, but she hangs on him despite it all. I don't know. Is Wini some sort of temptress to destroy his fedility but not satisfy him? What are her motivations?

Virgil, if you wrote this, I do agree with you - yes, I think the metaphor here is, Wini is a kind of temptress and has bewitched him. She definitely is still hanging onto him; she really doesn't want to let him go. She is controlling like his mother and putting him into a bind; he can't win either way. The ending represents the circle of fire and frees him from the spell, get it?

I will post the text tomorrow. I am too tired out now and a little crabby, too...I admit it....
geez I hope I don't get like you, Virgil, - M ,B & D! :lol:

[Virgil]

Hi Virgil who looks like Janine; enjoying my avatar today, Virg? You robber you!:lol:

You're behind the times Janine. :D



So everyone asked me what we should do next and I think first, we should all stop being so 'judgemental', because we really are not learning a thing about this fine story, by going around in circles. Instead, we are just discussing our own ideas of morality.
I've come to the conclusion they are both morally suspect. It is important to come to some understanding on this though. Lawrence creates all sorts of moral implications. He beckons us to be judgemental.


"You didn't tell us you were going away. Why didn't you?" asked Laura, in her distinct tones, between laughing and reproach. Coutts looked at her ironically, so that she fidgeted with some crumbs on the cloth.

"I don't know," he said. "Why do we do things?"

"I'm sure I don't know. Why do we? Because we want to, I suppose," and she ended again with a little run of laughter. Things were so amusing, and she was so healthy.

"Why do we do things, Pater?" she suddenly asked in a loud voice, glancing with a little chuckle of laughter at Coutts.

"Ay--why do we do things? What things?" said the old man, beginning to laugh with his daughter.

"Why, any of the things that we do."

"Eh? Oh!" The old man was illuminated, and delighted. "Well, now, that's a difficult question. I remember, when I was a little younger, we used to discuss Free Will--got very hot about it . . ." He laughed, and Laura laughed, then said, in a high voice:

"Oh! Free Will! We shall really think you're passé, if you revive that, Pater."
This is actually beckoning us to question why Coutts and Wini act the way they do. Are they under free will or is there something that is controlling them?

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse and Antiquarian, I don't agree with this at all.

It was not deliberately set, why would he set fire to her house? No, I don't believe that one minute. The text reads:


How can something 'involuntary' be intentional? I am lost here.

Right before the lamp is ends up knocked over it says this:


The hurt became great it brought him out of the reeling stage to distinct concsouness. She clipped her lips, drew them away, leaving him her throat. Already she had had enough. He opened his eyes as he bent with his mouth on her neck, and was strartled; there stood the objects of the room, stark; there close below his eyes, were the half-sunk lashes of the woman, swooening on her unatural ebb of passion. He saw her thus, knew that she wanted no more of him than that kiss. And the heavy form of this woman hung upon him. His whole body ached like a swollen vien, with heavy intensity, while his heart grew dead with misery and despiar. This woman gave him anguish and a cutting-short like death; to the other he was fale. As he shivered with surring he opened his eyes again and caught sight of the pure ivory lamp. His heart flashed with rage.

So he fixes his attention upon the lamp, and he is in a state of rage, and than next thing you know the lamp is kicked over.

Though he might not have conciousuly been thinking I am going to kick over that lamp, I think the two events are linked, so I do not think it was completely accidental and innocent.

[Janine]

You're behind the times Janine. :D

Well, when I was writing this, you did still have my avatar. Then you quickly changed it. Yes, now I see you have DM's. By the time I post this no doubt you will have stollen someone else's :lol:


I've come to the conclusion they are both morally suspect. It is important to come to some understanding on this though. Lawrence creates all sorts of moral implications. He beckons us to be judgemental.

It takes two to tango...;)

Virgil, it may be Lawrence's intention, your last statement; but, do you think we could start from the beginning of the story tomorrow and work up to the end? Geez, it is not even Monday yet and we filled up 5 pages, mostly of arguing and disagreement. I really want to go back to the beginning of the story and work it along, like we have done others. Maybe things will become clearer to us that way. I know I am confused as heck now.


This is actually beckoning us to question why Coutts and Wini act the way they do. Are they under free will or is there something that is controlling them?

I think the story mentions 'Free Will' in the very begining at Laura's house. I was trying to figure out why it was capitalized.

Quotes by Dark Muse

So he fixes his attention upon the lamp, and he is in a state of rage, and than next thing you know the lamp is kicked over.

Though he might not have conciousuly been thinking I am going to kick over that lamp, I think the two events are linked, so I do not think it was completely accidental and innocent.

I was well aware of those lines preceeding, the part I quoted. I don't want to keep arguing the point here. I read this section over several times in the past few days and I came to the final conclusion, that the lamp accident was not intentional. Believe what you may, Dark Muse, but I interpretted it for myself as 'unintentional'. I don't think Coutts would be so cruel as to cause either Wini or her house harm. I really want to drop the issue and not be drawn back into a difference of opinion on this issue and another endless and pointless discussion on a matter of opinion. I am too weary for that now....maybe I am just overly tired.

[Dark Muse]

I do not think he did it with the intent of atucally causing harm. When he kicked over the lamp, I do not think he was thinking of starting a fire.

I do think he did it out of an act of rage, and that was just the nearest thing in which to act out his temper upon, but I do not think he was acutally trying to start a fire.

And that is all I will say on it.

[Janine]

Good, then you agree it was not intentional. Let us leave it at that. I agree he was feeling rage at the time the accident happened. How it really happened we can only surmiss, since there is not much information on the incident. Like I said, I read that part over a few times because I was questioning it at first. I came up with my own conclusion in the end.

And that is all I am going to say on the matter.

[Dark Muse]

Janine Anna Karenina is my all time favorite book. So many people just hate Anna! Not Vronsky, no, I suppose because he's not married, but so many people hate Anna.

LOL yeah I hated Anna though I did not necessarily like Vronsky I thought Anna was worse.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I so did I. I felt sorry for the poor guy and thought he was unfairly judged by his wife.

It was a very good story thought.

[Janine]

I don't know who is who anymore. I'm so confused. :( And I'm very, very nervous today/tonight.

Me too, Antiquarian. I have been confused all day with all this avy switching -hope it goes back to normal tomorrow. I was getting dizzy before in here, so I had to depart for awhile. It never ever has gotten this hectic in this thread before; it is hard to keep up. It has been rather confusing. Sorry your first time in here had to be like this. I have been edgy today too and nervous, wonder why? I feel all off kilter.:(

I only checked back briefly on here now and it is late; I just finished watching "The Great Escape" and decided it was pretty exciting at the end. I want to watch the documentary now on the true story; that should be very interesting...DVD's are so incredible.:thumbs_up


I'm not going to go on and on, Janine. I just want to say that I don't think Coutts meant to start a fire. I don't think he meant harm to come to the house or to Winifred. I agree with you. I think he fixed on the lamp in frustration and anger at himself.

I appreciate that, Antiquarian, glad you consider my point and agree the fire was not intentional. I just could not see how Coutts would do such a thing on purpose and put them both in harm's way; but I really did have to read the ending over a few times to get it straight in my head and be sure. I think the fire alarmed him; afterall, he was the one who got burned hands putting it out.


I think, DM, you're probably right about Winifred. I'm not sure she doesn't want Coutts to marry, but I think she believes Connie to be the wrong woman for him, and of course, to Coutts, she's bewitching.

Yes, I agree, I don't think Winifred does think Coutts should marry Connie. Laura said as much, too, in the beginning of the story, or implied it, with all her prying and questioning. We will look at that conversation closer tomorrow. I think her laughter and his was a matter of nervousness, as well.


Janine Anna Karenina is my all time favorite book. So many people just hate Anna! Not Vronsky, no, I suppose because he's not married, but so many people hate Anna.

Is that so? I percieved that most people I talked to empathised with Anna and did not think her a truly bad person. I don't know, maybe I just have more tolerance for people, who give into their weaknesses and then later pay for it. It seems I do think them tragic and sad and feel for their struggles. I know I have made bad decisions before in my own life, so I can't condemn people who do make poor or weak decisions.



Now, I'm done, too, with this issue. :) Underlining text it is.

Good! I will try to post that text tomorrow, up until the concert begins. We can talk about how the author presents us at first or introduces us to the story and the characters, pointing out symbolism as we go along, of course. I just love that image of the house and the flowers and the white cascading flowers down from the front of the house.
I am so tired and I do have a doctor appointment fairly early tomorrow, so I don't know if my posting the text will have to delay to later in the day. I knew I was way to tired to do it all tonight. Sorry...

Thanks for being patient, everyone, and I will be back soon as I can.

[Virgil]

Good! I will try to post that text tomorrow, up until the concert begins. We can talk about how the author presents us at first or introduces us to the story and the characters, pointing out symbolism as we go along, of course. I just love that image of the house and the flowers and the white cascading flowers down from the front of the house.


Good. I've wanted to break the story down. I still think it divides into four parts. (Of course there's a beginning, middle, and end, but there are subdivisions too.) So Janine will start with the first part.

[Virgil]

I hope Janine can remember my original avatar. ;) It's back. :D :p

[Janine]

Hi Everybody, I am back, but only briefly, I have to get ready to go out and will back later on, early this evening...

Virgil are you back to being yourself today?:lol: I posted in the avy thread and asked if the participants in yesterday's antics (that drove a lot of forum members batty...no pun intended there..bat/witches,etc.) would turn into pumpkins at 12 midnight if they did not return their avatars to the rightful owners. I guess everyone is now back to normal, relatively speaking.

So here is the first part of the story with words and lines underlined. That is all I can do for now but figured if I posted it you all could just discuss it without me for now; I can add comments when I get back.

I was originally going to go up to the concert part, but decided (just now) to stop here and discuss the symbolism and the images in the first part of the story, when we are first presented with Bernard Coutts and his experience of making his decision to detour to the house...the imagery leading up to the area and the house is quite impressive, I think.


When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.

I will comment on this phrase. I think it is so key to the story. First off, this is a story about being tempted. We already pretty much established this fact and so this part of the story very much fortells the ending of the story. It really is a brilliant way of getting the reader's attention straight-off, don't you all agree?

In some research that I did offline in a book called "D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912" by John Worthen (a very recent biography, quite detailed and part of the Cambridge set of 3 volumes) I found out some more background about the writing of this story. It was begun in 1911 and then rewritten in 1913. 1911 was considered by Lawrence as his 'sick year', and by no means did he refer only to his 'physical' health, although it was truly bad and he nearly died, but his emotional/mental state, as well. I won't dwell on that, but only will only add that he was quite confused and distressed at the time and it reflects in this story; also his inner anger is very much mirrored in the story. The first version of this story was a bit different and even had a different title. The main character, Coutts, is returning from France in that story. East Cryodon was apparently a sort of suburb of London. Lawrence was indeed 25 at the time, he began this story, but a very young 25. His fiancee and he were engage under a year. Lawrence referred to her as very 'churchy' and her parents discouraged the union greatly. The 'duality' we spoke of in Coutts, not knowing what he wanted in life or in women, is definitely born out of this confusing time in Lawrence's own life. He thought that his financee would provide a 'normal' type life for him, one of stability and grounding, and at the same time he was drawn to a more 'free' type existence with his creative desires. He really was struggling to know just which path he should take in life. He was very 'unsure' of himself, like Coutts is in this story.

From this very first statement in the story this duality is suggested; young man who is tempting fate or Providence.


"I may just as well," he said to himself, "stay the night here, where I am used to the place, as go to London. I can't get to Connie's forlorn spot to-night, and I'm tired to death, so why shouldn't I do what is easiest?"
He gave his luggage to a porter.

All of the phrases here indicate a feeling of unsurity and of being somewhat 'wishy-washy' or vague; and making it ok to stay on and not advance to his financee's house for the night; as we said before giving him an excuse. However "Connie' forlorn spot" stands out to me. Why is he referring to Connie in the same phrase as 'forlorn'? Could he possibly feel being with her is a forlorn prospect? Now I am wondering about that because from what I read last night, about L's financee, L made a statement that when he was with her, he wanted 'to flee'...but this was not due to not desiring to be with her, but rather being totally sexually and even physically held back from her, by her. He seemed in letters to have a deep longing and desire for her; in fact, he only wrote or expressed these feelings to her in French, so her parents could not read them. Apparently, also he wrote some poems that very much expressed his longing and his wharted desire. They went away on freguent weekends or fortnight holidays with a chaperone, his sister usually. Lawrence, like Coutts was a very frustrated young man at 25. He also states in this paragraph something true of Coutts and the author "I'm tired to death". Not only was the author very tired out, but he was very much obsessed with 'death and dying'. I think this story will also reveal some feelings towards death and dying in the night-time imagery. Someone else pointed out that this story was set at night whereas all the stories we have read so far have been in the day; I believe that is true anyway. This story is shrouded in night and the contrast of light and darkness.


Again, as he faced the approaching tram-car: "I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
It was an evening of March. In the dark hollow below Crown Hill the buildings accumulated, bearing the black bulk of the church tower up into the rolling and smoking sunset.

Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising here

"
I know it so well," he thought.
"And love it," heconfessed secretly in his heart.

Twice now, he mentioned he was comfortable here or knew it...."where I am used to the place" - see beginning statements. Of course,
"secretly in his heart" also stands out.



The car ran on [b]familiarly. The young man listened for the swish, watched for the striking of the blue splash overhead, at the bracket. The sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire, pleased him.

Any ideas here?




"Where does it come from?" he asked himself, and a spark struck bright again. He smiled a little, roused.

Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.



The day was dying out. One by one the arc lamps fluttered or leaped alight, the strand of copper overhead glistened against the dark sky that now was [b]deepening to the colour of monkshood.


That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.

I have to stop here and leave the computer; I wrote way more than I thought I would. We also, seem to be having a thunderstorm or coming near. I better shut the computer down for now. See you all later when I will post the next part of this first section. I am not quite done doing so. I wanted to go up to the part when Laura opens the door to Coutts. See you all later on.....

I did not see you two there - it took me forever to post this - I kept messing up the quotes and the bolds....talk about being confused. I need a long rest after this story! and the avy switch...brilliant idea...:lol:....I have to run now...see you all later! Hope you enjoy my painstaking post...:lol: I can't think clearly this early....

[Dark Muse]

Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising her but will be anxious to see what all of your think...

I think the image of the church tower is a bit of foreboding and warning against what is to come. As it is interesting the way in which the church seems to be case into the darkness and is described as being a black bulk. I almost picture this dark silhouette in cast in the shadow of the setting sun. I think it touches back to the line just before it:


concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.

In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.



The car ran on familiarly. The young man listened for the swish, watched for the striking of the blue splash overhead, at the bracket. The sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire, pleased him.

I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.

I do find the lines


The sudden fervour of the spark

to be interesting, and those particular words used, considering what is to happen next within the story. The word fervor in particular sticks out to me. It seems almost to be predicting what is to happen between Coutts and Winifed, as the "spark" between them more or less ends up being rekindled when they reunite.


Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.


That is the first thing that came to my mind when I read that line, before I even knew anything of what the story was going to be about. But when I read it for the first time, I instnatly thought of that.

I think there is one other moment in which he mentiones his state of being "roused" but I cannot recall just where.



That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.

Yes, I had that sense too, to me as well, the image of a monk in his robes, with the hood concealing his features, is alose a bit forboding or ominous in some regards, but perhaps that is just me.

[Virgil]

Virgil are you back to being yourself today?:lol: I posted in the avy thread and asked if the participants in yesterday's antics (that drove a lot of forum members batty...no pun intended there..bat/witches,etc.) would turn into pumpkins at 12 midnight if they did not return their avatars to the rightful owners. I guess everyone is now back to normal, relatively speaking.

Yes I'm back Janine, and after a hard day at work, the impishness that filled me last night has been beaten out of me. :( So no more witchy games. ;)

But let me commend you on this fine post. I agree with most of what you say. I made similar notes in my book. Let me expand on certain key points.


I was originally going to go up to the concert part, but decided (just now) to stop here and discuss the symbolism and the images in the first part of the story, when we are first presented with Bernard Coutts and his experience of making his decision to detour to the house...the imagery leading up to the area and the house is quite impressive, I think.
Ok, the four parts are rather large. The more we discuss this story, the more I'm impressed by it.


Quote:
When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.


I will comment on this phrase. I think it is so key to the story. First off, this is a story about being tempted. We already pretty much established this fact and so this part of the story very much fortells the ending of the story. It really is a brilliant way of getting the reader's attention straight-off, don't you all agree?
Absolutely agree. And let me couple that with this quote that I presented earlier:

"Why do we do things, Pater?" she suddenly asked in a loud voice, glancing with a little chuckle of laughter at Coutts.

"Ay--why do we do things? What things?" said the old man, beginning to laugh with his daughter.

"Why, any of the things that we do."

"Eh? Oh!" The old man was illuminated, and delighted. "Well, now, that's a difficult question. I remember, when I was a little younger, we used to discuss Free Will--got very hot about it . . ." He laughed, and Laura laughed, then said, in a high voice:

"Oh! Free Will! We shall really think you're passé, if you revive that, Pater."

Mr. Cleveland looked puzzled for a moment. Then, as if answering a conundrum, he repeated:

"Why do we do things? Now, why do we do things?"

"I suppose," he said, in all good faith, "it's because we can't help it--eh? What?"
Temptation and why do we do things? That is the central question of the story. So the question that beckons is whether Coutts actions under temptation is out of his free will or is it deterministic. We can decide on that later.


All of the phrases here indicate a feeling of unsurity and of being somewhat 'wishy-washy' or vague; and making it ok to stay on and not advance to his financee's house for the night; as we said before giving him an excuse.
Yes, I see what you mean as vague, but I read this a little different. This is a psychological story and this is rationalization. He's making excuses for himself, rationalizing why it's ok to go to a place where Wini might be. So does this imply free will?

And we also get this:

Again, as he faced the approaching tram-car: "I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
It was an evening of March. In the dark hollow below Crown Hill the buildings accumulated, bearing the black bulk of the church tower up into the rolling and smoking sunset.


However "Connie' forlorn spot" stands out to me. Why is he referring to Connie in the same phrase as 'forlorn'? Could he possibly feel being with her is a forlorn prospect?
More rationalizations. At least that's my view. And of course "concessions to his desires he made against his conscience" is I think a flat out statement to the story's central theme.


Now I am wondering about that because from what I read last night, about L's financee, L made a statement that when he was with her, he wanted 'to flee'...but this was not due to not desiring to be with her, but rather being totally sexually and even physically held back from her, by her. He seemed in letters to have a deep longing and desire for her; in fact, he only wrote or expressed these feelings to her in French, so her parents could not read them. Apparently, also he wrote some poems that very much expressed his longing and his wharted desire. They went away on freguent weekends or fortnight holidays with a chaperone, his sister usually. Lawrence, like Coutts was a very frustrated young man at 25. He also states in this paragraph something true of Coutts and the author "I'm tired to death". Not only was the author very tired out, but he was very much obsessed with 'death and dying'. I think this story will also reveal some feelings towards death and dying in the night-time imagery. Someone else pointed out that this story was set at night whereas all the stories we have read so far have been in the day; I believe that is true anyway. This story is shrouded in night and the contrast of light and darkness.
Interesting point that this is set at night. And he makes a point several times throughout to tell us the time of the evening. But I'm afraid I don't see the death allusions in the story. I see the symbolism of the night as female power and mystery.


Those are interesting dark/night images. I think the image of that church tower especially interesting and would almost be like a warning considering his financee was 'churchy' and also the church could symbolise eternity or the forboding idea of eternal darkness/death....I don't know and only surmising here
Actually I see the church as phallic. But what's really interesting to me is how Lawrence is foreshadowing the flaming lamp with the "smoking sunset" and the "swish and "splash" and "the lamps sputtering," and "he sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire."


Twice now, he mentioned he was comfortable here or knew it...."where I am used to the place" - see beginning statements. Of course,
"secretly in his heart" also stands out.
I think these are all conscious rationalizations of internal subconscious desires. You know how I detest Freud, but Lawrence, though he disagreed with Freud on some things, bought into several of his theories, especially when he was a young man.


Any ideas here?

Seems like a direct reference to a man's desires, arousal...this excitement and spark he is actually feeling, perceiving, not just seeing.
Yes, the fire is linked to male desire/libido, and it also functions as foreshadow. Can you see the wonderful craft of this story?


That phrase about the 'monkshood' really interests me. I think this would suggest a monk, actually and he would be referring to his own thwarted sex life. Also, it goes along with the church spire. That could also be a very phallic symbol.
Not sure about that, but I've found that monkshood is also wolfsbane which dovetails with the witchy themes.

In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

[Dark Muse]

In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

Yes I agree with that assessment, I do think that the scene at Laura's house when they begin the discussion about Free Will and Why we do things is an important part to setting up the story and the events that are about to unfold.

[Virgil]

In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.

I have to agree with that, despite what I said as phallic. Perhaps it's a wonderful coupling of two desparate thoughts into one symbol.


I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.
I'm not sure what to make of the car, except perhaps in that day cars sputtered frequently. But there is a lot made of various modes of transportation, the tram and train as well as the car. And the story makes a point of Coutts and Wini walking to her home rather than getting on the train. Not sure what to make of that.

[Dark Muse]

I'm not sure what to make of the car, except perhaps in that day cars sputtered frequently. But there is a lot made of various modes of transportation, the tram and train as well as the car. And the story makes a point of Coutts and Wini walking to her home rather than getting on the train. Not sure what to make of that.

This might be a bit of a streach, but perhaps it represents, that in the beginning with the car, he has the desire to arrive swiftly at his destination to return to that in which he feels most comftrable, he does not want to dely or stall.

But when he is with Winiferd, they end up walking together becasue of his desire to prolong his time with her he wants it to last as long as possible, as well it is a more intimate setting walking together while riding in the car could be seen as more infmoral in a way.

It might also relate to the strcture of the story as well. For the real "joruney" of the story, and the moment that leads to the climax, comes from that moment with Winifred.

While the beginning was a way to set up the events that were to come, and place Coutts in the posistion of his encounter with Winifred.

[Quark]

I'd have look more closely at the story to argue this, but perhaps we should look more at Coutts' attitude toward his transportation and not just fixate on the mode. When it says that the train ran on familiarly, the word familiarly might be more important than the fact that he's on a train. I'm curious, are there any other subjective modifiers attached to his means of travel. Does it ever say that he walked on unfamiliarly, or something along those lines? I'll go back and look. I need to reread the story anyway.

[Janine]

Hi Everybody! I am back; but I am not feeling particularly well tonight. I actually have been reading all of your posts. I got back but then had to go out again. Whew, I must be getting old; it is hard to keep up with all of this and so I feel like my head is a bit congested now with mega information which includes so much that I read last night concerning this story, stuff I mulled over today while driving, etc. I will try and answer everyone and keep it all straight; but don't push too far ahead. When I am done answering these post now I will try and post the next part of the story, so you all can muse on that. This story is much more complex than I first imagined; there is much that does not immediately meet the eye and sink in. On underlining word and phrases one can even notice a sort of pattern of dark and omininous images.

Quote by Antiquarian

I have to go out too, soon, Janine, but I'll be back this evening.

I just wanted to say, I do love the way Lawrence begins his story. It makes the reader want to read on, wondering why he's tempting Providence. And the fact that he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him, at least in my eyes.

Antiquarian,

I hope your day was more favorable than mine. I had a car accident. Don't worry, no injuries and basically just a fender bender but still those are upsetting. It was not my fault, since some guy pulled out of a bank parking lot onto a busy road, the one I was traveling on....anyway, long story..thank God it was not worse.

Yes, isn't the story's beginning wonderful? I absolutely agree with this part "he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him,"...to the extend that I could then identify with the character and his longing and his feelings of doing wrong, guilt. I think sometimes things drive a person inwardly and they are caught up in this current and this is especially true when younger. I noticed how the story is like a chain of events that lead him onward in this quest. He is swept up in the beauty of the night, his surroundings (that are familiar to him and he states he loves:


I know it so well," he thought. "And love it," he confessed secretly in his heart.

Also, this strong sexual urge, that is feeding his excitement and may have a possible outlet (on a night like this) for his pent-up desires, drives him forward towards the imminent encounter with Winifred. This night described to me is a very sensual night and one made for temptation and a temptress...is not Winifred the witch/temptress? Michael Black refers to her as a 'druid princess'. Coutts not only 'sees' everything, but just imagine, he feels it and he smells it - the night, the flowers, the breeze, the glow of the lamps - this whole experience would be very alluring and inviting; it would emerse a person in another 'secret' magical/mysterious world...the night would shroud a person in wonder and longing, would it not?


I think the image of the church tower is a bit of foreboding and warning against what is to come. As it is interesting the way in which the church seems to be case into the darkness and is described as being a black bulk. I almost picture this dark silhouette in cast in the shadow of the setting sun. I think it touches back to the line just before it:

"concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted."

Dark Muse, I think that church tower is a 'forboding image', also, the way it is decribed as
"the black bulk of the church tower".
This interests me completely and I am still not quite sure what to make of it, but from other readings, I have heard Lawrence describe similiar images in his travel books on Italy, along with crucifixes and other religious symbols, also in "The Plumed Serpent". Also, the opposite is when I have heard him describe a man as luminous and a 'tower of light' or life. In the reverse this is a sort of 'tower or darkness' or looming death. As Virgil pointed out to my remark of it as a phallic symbol as well, I think this blackened church tower has multiple meanings and hidden symbolism, complex and not easily explained. It is a vey curious image, because if it being described as black, a witch color, the color of death, the color of night....

Yes, that is good, Dark Muse, the idea of a silloutte image and the setting sun. The sun setting might even cast a bit of light on the tower and this would be his "spirit exulted"...or the way it actually is perceived with light fading behind it. This darkness in conjunction to a death image is something I was thinking of in relation to Lawrence's mother's recent death.

Virgil, you asked about my thoughts connecting this story with death. Ok, the church spire and the story may correspond, closer than you realise, to that event, and the idea of death or disintegration. In some way, this would lead us to a sort of 'emotional suicide' for Coutts and the ending could be interpretted as the end of both of his female relationships for Coutts.

SPOILER for "Sons and Lovers" if you have not read it.

I don't want to jump too far ahead, but if this was the case, Virgil, the ending to this story is quite tragic and remininscent of how Paul in "Sons and Lovers" feels at the end of the story.


In a way the church is acting as a reminder to his conscience, but it is more or less being overridden, while still a lingering presence.

I don't understand how it is being over-ridden? Can you explain? Do you mean the image of it as his conscience is over-ridden or overshadowed isn some way and by what?



I think where it says "the car ran on familarly" touches back to the points you made before about Coutts being comftrable hear, and knowing this place.

Yes, even the train is comfortable to him since it has brought him back here many times before and so the familiarity of it is comforting and inviting to him.


to be interesting, and those particular words used, considering what is to happen next within the story. The word fervor in particular sticks out to me. It seems almost to be predicting what is to happen between Coutts and Winifed, as the "spark" between them more or less ends up being rekindled when they reunite.

Yes, the spark is reminescent of the spark that will be ignited between them, in more ways than one. The final spark will actually break the spell for Coutts but I don't want to advance to the ending quite yet. I feel the spark in the begging is more representative of desire.



That is the first thing that came to my mind when I read that line, before I even knew anything of what the story was going to be about. But when I read it for the first time, I instnatly thought of that.

Seriously, Dark Muse? It is an interesting line and thought isn't it?


I think there is one other moment in which he mentiones his state of being "roused" but I cannot recall just where.

I am sure, as we go along, we will find it and other direct references, inferences to a Coutt's desire.


Yes, I had that sense too, to me as well, the image of a monk in his robes, with the hood concealing his features, is alose a bit forboding or ominous in some regards, but perhaps that is just me.

Yikes, we actually agree on a few things here. That is good to see. I do think it helps greatly to take the text slowly and really look at it and consider what it all means and symbolises. The monkshood is fascinating and such an image may also indicate that Coutts feels like a monk in that he is lead on by these woman but is celibate, chaste, very much like a monk. In Coutt's case it would be a forced celibacy and not one of his own choosing. One can't wrong him for having desire and wanting/needing to fully express it, especially when the women in is life are leading him on and then at a point, suddening pushing him away. It is like holding a candy bar in front of a child, and not allowing him to partake of the chocolate. Even with Wini, we get a first hand picture of how she is egging him on, inticing him, seducing him and then pulls back at the moment he begins to express his desires to her. It is a very frustating position to be put into.

Ok, I know I am moving slowly but now I will go onto the next post...

[Dark Muse]

I don't understand how it is being over-ridden? Can you explain? Do you mean the image of it as his conscience is over-ridden or overshadowed isn some way and by what?

The reason I say that it is being overridden, is because the way in which the church is described as being in the darkness, and because, in my opinion Coutts does not ultimately obey his conscious. And so his desire or temptation ends up overtaking the warning of the church.




Seriously, Dark Muse? It is an interesting line and thought isn't it?

hehe yes



In Coutt's case it would be a forced celibacy and not one of his own choosing. One can't wrong him for having desire and wanting/needing to fully express it, especially when the women in is life are leading him on and then at a point, suddening pushing him away. It is like holding a candy bar in front of a child, and not allowing him to partake of the chocolate. Even with Wini, we get a first hand picture of how she is egging him on, inticing him, seducing him and then pulls back at the moment he begins to express his desires to her. It is a very frustating position to be put into.

But the way I see it, Coutts his an adult, and adults are expected more than childern to control themselves and to understand right from wrong. That is part of being an adult. And I think really Coutts is the one in a way that insights it all and starts it. Winni does not start tempting Coutts untill they begin the walk to the house. So at the beginning Winni does not really say or do anything to try and keep Coutts from getting onto the train with the German lady, he could have just rode away than and there, but completely on his own he chooses to stay behind when Winni says she is going to walk. Perhaps she execpted him to follow her, but I do not think she acutally does anything to try and make him do so.

[Quark]

I am sure, as we go along, we will find it and other direct references, inferences to a Coutt's desire.

Have you talked about the Venus statue, yet? That's a pretty direct reference.

[Dark Muse]

We have not got there yet, in our discussion but yes that was quite erotic to say the least

[Janine]

Quote by Antiquarian

Monkshood belongs to the buttercup family and that seems to signify cheerfulness to me, however, it does have a tall, erect stem, which would be indicative of a phallic symbol.


Quotes by Virgil

Yes I'm back Janine, and after a hard day at work, the impishness that filled me last night has been beaten out of me. :( So no more witchy games. ;)

Hi Virgil, so now you are Virgil again and not 'Janine' and then 'Dark Muse' imposter. Good, I am glad you got over your little impish fun and returned to sort of normal...:lol: I thought for a time I was seeing double! Sorry your day was a tough one; mine was awful, too.:(


But let me commend you on this fine post. I agree with most of what you say. I made similar notes in my book. Let me expand on certain key points.

;) We do seem to think alike about Lawrence - strange, isn't it? Thanks for your compliments. Did you really read all that...or just skim it.;) I have been thinking hard about this story all last night and this morning and today when I was out, too. Wow, this is one complicated short story and I really do love it more and more; it is a great challenge, don't you think?



Ok, the four parts are rather large. The more we discuss this story, the more I'm impressed by it.

Yes, now I see there are four parts and not just 3. I agree about being impressed. Seems even in Lawrence's direst period he was highly creative, always 'deep'.



Absolutely agree. And let me couple that with this quote that I presented earlier:

Temptation and why do we do things? That is the central question of the story. So the question that beckons is whether Coutts actions under temptation is out of his free will or is it deterministic. We can decide on that later.

That is jumping a little a head/ but I see your point/ connecting it with the begining of the story. Virgil - what would be the difference between 'free will and 'deterministic'? I don't quite get that.


Yes, I see what you mean as vague, but I read this a little different. This is a psychological story and this is rationalization. He's making excuses for himself, rationalizing why it's ok to go to a place where Wini might be. So does this imply free will?

I don't know if it does, but since it is mentioned in the story I would think that is a hint that his actions are of 'free will' - otherwise why would that come up in the conversation shortly after he enters the house? Yes, I totally agree - this a psychological story and he is rationalizing his every move and action as it happens. Can it be both 'free will' and 'racialization', even a mix of all - subconsious and determininstic actions, included? I don't know yet. Maybe more examination of the story text will reveal what is driving him on in this direction.



More rationalizations. At least that's my view. And of course "concessions to his desires he made against his conscience" is I think a flat out statement to the story's central theme.

Yes, very true. It might be the central theme; I am not quite sure yet what I believe is the central theme.


Interesting point that this is set at night. And he makes a point several times throughout to tell us the time of the evening. But I'm afraid I don't see the death allusions in the story. I see the symbolism of the night as female power and mystery.

Maybe death in the female. You know that Lawrence had a fear of being all comsumed by the female. His mother was the prime example and then this fear extented to his relationships. OK, so when I say night and death it does go along with the idea of the female and her power. In this case the power is the spell of a witch/druid princess/temptress....doesn't it make sense?

Think of the images: dark church tower, forbodding monk's hood (secret/hidden/darkness), knife, sacrifice, crucifix, smoking sunset, 'day was dying out' and many more death images that will be shown to exist in the story, as we go along.
This is from Michael Black, Early Fiction:


This is strange. The notion of crucifixion and sacrifice, linked to the idea of a willed stability, including that of marriage, will re-surface in various ways and various places, most notably in the Tirol, among the crucifixes that reminded Lawrence of Ernest Weekley*. But Lawrence will not again propose himself as the willing victim. The implication of the story is that he is torn between this sacrifice and another, the one presided over by the priestess or witch.

*his wife, Frieda's husband
The priestess, Michael Black is referring to would be that of Connie, his betrothed and the witch, of course, would be Winifred. Either way he is saying that he would be a 'sacrifice' to either woman. So the images in the story all indicate this idea of 'sacrifice' and ultimate death to Coutts.


Actually I see the church as phallic. But what's really interesting to me is how Lawrence is foreshadowing the flaming lamp with the "smoking sunset" and the "swish and "splash" and "the lamps sputtering," and "he sudden fervour of the spark, splashed out of the mere wire."

Is that all he is forshadowing here. I feel he is forshadowing the sacrifice and the death as well. I now take back my earlier idea of a emotional suicide. I don't know if we could actually call it that but he certainly knows the results of this encounter could be risky and end badly, not just for he with Winifred, but for he and Connie. I feel that his fleeing at the end is far more than just fleeing from the one woman. I feel he is fleeing from both. I think it is like Michael Black points out - this time the character representing Lawrence, "will not propose himself as the willing victim". The sparks and flame certainly do relate to the lamp, the candles, the hearth and the blaze but what exactly do all those things symbolise to Lawrence?


I think these are all conscious rationalizations of internal subconscious desires. You know how I detest Freud, but Lawrence, though he disagreed with Freud on some things, bought into several of his theories, especially when he was a young man.

That first statement sounds right-on. I like the way you put that. I don't know though if the desires were truly subconscious. I think that Coutts, just like Lawrence, had very 'conscious' desires and he knew he needed what his desires satisified. I think the main problem was that the women in his life were in fact willingly and actively pursuing him, and yet, holding aloft and not providing him with the emotional and physical closeness, he so desperately craved at this time.


Yes, the fire is linked to male desire/libido, and it also functions as foreshadow. Can you see the wonderful craft of this story?

Incredible and wonderful. It is so well-written/structured, I am in awe....plus I love the way it ties in directly with Lawrence at this difficult time in his young life. It is a tiny window into Lawrence's soul. It almost makes me want to cry, it feels very tragic to me.


Not sure about that, but I've found that monkshood is also wolfsbane which dovetails with the witchy themes.

Good choice then. This is a witchy tale, afterall. Lawrence knew his flowers and only he would have thought of that one - with all it's various connotations. I love the image of monkshood. It is a lovely flower and very interesting as well. It looks like the hood of a monk as someone pointed out, Dark Muse, I think and it also looks like something secretive - hoods/shrouds/capes always conjure up images of secretive beings or avatars (real avatars, Virgil!;) :lol: ), vampires, etc. That image is so dark and so forbodding.


In summary, I think the key to this early part of the story is the establishment of the temptation motif and raising the question as to whether Coutts' actions are determinsitic out of subconscious desires or whether they're a free will choice.

Yes, but this part also, contains so much forshadowing and deep symbolism into the deeper recesses of Coutt's desires....I think subconsious and conscious.


I'd have look more closely at the story to argue this, but perhaps we should look more at Coutts' attitude toward his transportation and not just fixate on the mode. When it says that the train ran on familiarly, the word familiarly might be more important than the fact that he's on a train. I'm curious, are there any other subjective modifiers attached to his means of travel. Does it ever say that he walked on unfamiliarly, or something along those lines? I'll go back and look. I need to reread the story anyway.

Actually Quark, I did post the first part of the story text about one to two pages back, post #1674 I believe (right after talking about avies and Anna, (today about 1:30PM) and there I address this idea of the 'familiarity' of the setting and the place, as Coutts approaches the Laura's house, where he will meet up with Winifred. If you go back and read that post, you will see many things layed out about the symbolism in the first part; then following directly - the comments from everyone else today.

Lawrence often talked of trains and trams and such so I did not pay particular attention to that either but I did notice the references were quite blantant about his feelings of familiarity and feeling comfortable in this setting - even loving it here.

Dark Muse, I don't understand this part of your post. The rest of that post, I pretty much understand what you are meaning, but not this particular part. Can you explain?


This might be a bit of a streach, but perhaps it represents, that in the beginning with the car, he has the desire to arrive swiftly at his destination to return to that in which he feels most comftrable, he does not want to dely or stall.

Which car or train and keep him which destination - to his fiancee or to Wini?

[Dark Muse]

Opps I do not know what happend to the original quotes, they dissapared when I had to edit the post


Dark Muse, I don't understand this part of your post. The rest of that post, I pretty much understand what you are meaning, but not this particular part. Can you explain?



Which car or train and keep him which destination - to his fiancee or to Wini?

Sorry if I did not make myself clear, I ment his destination to Laura's house which would in the end lead him to Winni.

[Virgil]

Janine, free will and determinism are opposites. Under free will one has the ability to chose one's destiny or course of actions. Determinism means that one's choices are fated by something, subconscious, natural forces, social pressures, financial status. Thomas Hardy I think, though you and Antiquarian might know best, was a determinist.

So sorry to hear about your accident. The main thing is that no one was hurt.

[Janine]

Janine, so sorry to hear about your accident, but glad you're okay. Yes, those things are unsettling even if there are no injuries. At least I slept last night, but I'm exhausted again today and not 100%.

Antiquarian, thanks for being so understanding. Yes, it was really so unsettling and I was coming home in rush hour traffic when the accident occurred - quite a shock. I hate that road anyway - very hazzardous. Plus I am having a bad day for my chronic ailments so you can imagine the rest. Now I a truly suffering from all the stress; stress makes my symptoms worse. Soon I am off of here too.
Sorry to hear you are not feeling well still; try and get good sleep tonight and maybe slowly you will feel better. Fatigue demands rest and sleep. I feel particularly fatigued today and bad but it might be our weather here affecting me - it is rainy and colder again. I hate it!


The discussion has been very interesting, hasn't it?

Hasn't it though. I think it has been wonderful! I have to admit it is hard to keep up with all of these post. I think I am getting old; tonight I am quite exhausted.
I was glad was able I fit in posting that section of the story to discuss this afternoon before I went out; that way you got to comment on it while I was out and there was lots to answer when I finally got back to my computer. The direct text certainly did reveal more, than I even imagined at first, and I have read the story numerous times...odd. I guess one misses a lot, until you actually look at the lines separately. Do you think that is true?

DM, I particularly like the way you described the symbolism of the church and I quite agree with it.

I really like that image and now I see so well how it fits into the whole scheme of the story and ideas behind it. Lawrence used this tower type symbolism often. It is really fascinting and so indictive of so many feelings: religious, spiritual, emotional, eternal, sexual and somehow in Lawrence's mind these were all intertwined. If you read more Lawrence, Antiquarian, and especially his novels, you will see how all these mix in the recesses of Lawrence's mind. This is what facinates me about Lawrence but even more than that something you said earlier, about his state or his being....I wish I could recall it now. I will have to look that up and get back to you. I always think of Lawrence as having this kind of beautiful 'fragility'. His work is like a artist - so 'painterly'...there is a fragile beauty in is art, yet his words are powerful and a 'fragile strength'...do you know what I mean?


I never knew Lawrence was so very complex, especially with regard to symbolism, but I do enjoy it immensely. And his writing is beautiful. The prose is simply a joy to read. When he describes the white alyssum tumbling from the wall, it was the most beautiful image.

Yes, very complex and yet someone simple too...the way the words just flow to natuarally, don't you think? I knew it so instinctively, for a long time, (since my late 20's) when I first discovered his writing, but now Virgil had helped me greatly, to see so much more in Lawrence's work. So much can just simply be enjoyed and absorbed and one feels the beauty and power and fragility and senitivity, it is almost painful like poetry. However, since we started discussing his work in this way, in this forum with the addition of my own extented reading of biographies and reference materials, I never imagined the extend of his work and the depth and richness of meaning that it contained.

I too, keep thinking of the white aylssum. It is spring and our white dogwood tree is blooming; at night from my upstairs room, it looks so luminous and makes me think of the feeling Coutts much have had approaching the house, seeing that moonlight cascading aylssum....so simple yet so beautiful the way that is stated...it is very poetic.


Sorry to Quark, I have not read over the short story for Chekhov yet. I hoped to today but it turned out to be otherwise.

I think I will have to post the rest of this first part tomorrow...I am so worn out now.
Hold on, Everyoneand I will be back with that part, as soon as I get a good night's sleep.
Hope you have a good night's sleep tonight.

Wow, how many posts were written today? Amazing!


Janine, free will and determinism are opposites. Under free will one has the ability to chose one's destiny or course of actions. Determinism means that one's choices are fated by something, subconscious, natural forces, social pressures, financial status. Thomas Hardy I think, though you and Antiquarian might know best, was a determinist.

Is that the same as a 'determinist' - someone who believes fate rules out destinies? That is what Hardy believed. Oh my goodness - don't tell me now, I have to go and read Lawrence's essay on 'Hardy' - in that essay I know he did compare these two ideas and how they differed in this way of thinking. It has been awhile since I read it.


So sorry to hear about your accident. The main thing is that no one was hurt.

Yes, no injuries...I ran into him but the cop determined it was no one's fault. Actually I think it was his since he pulled out into traffic; claims he did not see me. Alarming when you are plowing into someone with your foot tight on the brake. It looked like results might be worse. His car was worse - think our car is just scratched, really. At least my airbags did not employ...;)
oh my gosh, you must have been flying to have that happen, 'Mr. Lead-Foot'!

[Janine]

Hi I am back again; hope Everyone had a good night's sleep! I did for once. I thought I would post some more of the story which I had hoped to do yesterday. This will just take us up to the first part, right before Laura opens the door to Coutts and he enters inside the house, setting a new scene of conversation, as opposed to this natural lush spring setting with internalised throughts and images.


The tram-car dipped as it ran, seeming to exult. As it came clear of the houses, the young man, looking west, saw the evening star advance, a bright thing approaching from a long way off, as if it had been bathing in the surf of the daylight, and now was walking shorewards to the night. He greeted the naked star with a bow of the head, his heart surgingas the car leaped.

So, here Lawrence would be assosicating the 'evening star' as having been bathed in the light of the sun, when he states ' bathing in the surf of the daylight,"...but he goes on to say it is now 'walking shorewards to the night'. I know this 'evening star' is a vital sign to Lawrence - a kind of mystical omen or 'heavenly mystery' and some of his novels and stories even signifying union with a woman, but 'equal union' - as two stars are in orbit and balanced opposite each other. Virgil can explain this better. In this case, in this particular story, I also think of the star in terms of 'immortality' and perhaps Lawrence's ideas of 'eternity' and 'everlasting life'. In the one novel I read "The Plumed Serpent' they spoke often of the evening star and the morning star in conjunction with Lawrence's ideas on spirituality. It seems that this time between day and night(evening or dawn) are always vitally important to Lawrence, in his spiritual thinking. Also, the image of the star bathed in sunlight is appropriate to Lawrence in his ideas of the sun being as an object of worship, such as in the stories we already read, most notably 'Sun'. If you think of it, stars are like the sun and made up of gases that burn brightly. In a immortality sense, I think this particular star could also be a remembrance of his own mother, now residing in eternity. I thought this when he 'bowed' to it and also it conjures up thoughts of worship and spirituality; the church image supports this idea as well.

I looked up many references on churchs and church spires and towers last night online and found that so many, maybe in all of Lawrence novels and many of his short stories present images of churches and church steeples. I will post some of these very interesting references later, after you all get this far into the story text. One to particularly note, is in the story that we discussed months ago, "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter".
Antiquarian, I know you just read that story; do you recall the tower of the church casting a dark shadow on the cementary scene? That is so reminescent of the church tower in this 'witch' story, I believe. Any thoughts on that? I do recall that we discussed much about that scene and the church imagery. I should go back and look that up in our thread.

Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.


"It seems to be greeting me across the sky--the star," he said, amused by his own vanity.

This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.



Above the colouring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung [/b]sharp and keen[/b]. Something recoiled in him.
"It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice," he said to himself. Then, secretly: "I wonder for whom?"
He refused to answer this question, but he had the sense of Constance, his betrothed, waiting for him in the Vicarage in the north. He closed his eyes.

But now, he is forwarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentiones a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.


Soon the car was running full-tilt from the shadow to the fume of yellow light at the terminus, where shop on shop and lamp beyond lamp heaped golden fire on the floor of the blue night. The car, like an eager dog, ran in home, sniffing with pleasure the fume of lights.

I did read something about lamp light and how it was to Lawrence an unnatural light. I will try and research that better today. I feel that this golden light would be warm and illuminating as it "heaps golden fire on the floor of the blue-night"...the word fire again and more forshadowing of the fire at the end of the story. Image after image will appear of darkness and illumination - piano candles, lamps, shops alight, street lamps, the golden lights of the train like a serpent, the hearth and the blaze at the end....all against the backdrop of the dark, mysterious night. Interesting.


Coutts flung away uphill. He had forgotten he was tired. From the distance he could distinguish the house, by the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls. He ran up the steep path to the door, smelling the hyacinths in the dark, watching[b/] for the [b]pale fluttering of daffodils and the steadier show of white crocuses on the grassy banks.

Notice that he has 'forgotten he was tired'...the spring night seems to have renewed him....maybe to his former self...in returning to a place he feels at home and comfortable.

Again, that lovely image of the garden, as he approaches this house of his past - how more inviting could it be and on top of that to know there will be music resounding in the parlour. This had to take Lawrence, himself, back to this childhood/adolscent days and even his first love with Jesse. His mother and Jesse had flower gardens directly in front of their houses.

This scene is so lush and so inviting. I know I would not be able to resist going forward to knock at that door. The imagery is so beautifully written - note the phrases I underlined and how they relate to their adjectives...wonderful fragile and sensitive expressions. Lawrence is so good at describing flowers and fauna; for one thing he has become like a part of them, to know them so well. I love "the pale fluttering of daffodils".

I am glad I chose this story for this time of year, since the flowers of this variety (early spring) have been coming out lately, being greatly admired by everyone. The mood is so appropriate and one can feel the surge within of the advancing of spring and the warm summer months to come and finally the coming of warmth and sun! Yeah!:) I think I have spring-fever badly! :lol:

[Janine]

Glad to hear you got a good night's sleep, Janine. I slept better as well.

Antiquarian, glad you slept better too. I had to take a pill and it knocked me out, but helped my condition, so I am pleased and a bit happier today...plus it is sunny, which is a real bonus, too! Have fun on your excursion if you go outside today. Hope it is sunny there, too.



I can't stay on long right now, but I did want to answer your question about "The Horse Dealer's Daughter" and the chruch shadow. Here's how it reads:

There she always felt secure, as if no one could see her, although as a matter of fact she was exposed to the stare of everyone who passed along under the churchyard wall. Nevertheless, once under the shadow of the great looming church, among the graves, she felt immune from the world, reserved within the thick churchyard wall as in another country.

So it seems the graves were under the shadow of the church.

I'll be back later - hopefully! :)

Antiquarian, thanks for looking that up and quoting it. Interesting isn't it? I am glad you just recently read that story. I like the image of the graves under the shadow of the looming church. I found so many references online and seems that in Lawrence's novel, "The Rainbow" which we may read by summer and discuss, the image of the church is vitally important to the story. It seems to be a symbol for the men of the town, as a mystical symbol of worship or potency. In "The Plumed Serpent" a church is converted into a kind of temple of male potency and rule. Interesting, to see Lawrence's early stories embody this 'church' image, that will prevade throughout his later writings. Also, he meet Jessie Chambers in a church, for the first time or so one site claimed; I need to research that better. Jessie was his first love and plays prominently in "Sons and Lovers" as Miriam Leivers. I can't wait until you read that novel, so we can discuss it sometime.
I found a photo online of that exact church and street taken in the 1950's. I will send you the link or post it on this thread somewhere along the way. The site is interesting, with other locations, that are featured in Lawrence's works, but you can't copy the photos on this site, unfortunately. I keep a file of Lawrence related photos; I wish I could have these for my file. Maybe looking them up separately, I could find them online. I had to really dig for these photos; they're all b/w.

NOTE: my post with the continuing part of the story text is the long post, just before Antiquarian's, which now put us onto a new page - so that post of the text is one page back.

[Dark Muse]

Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.

I had a similar thought, though slightly different, but with the same basic concept regarding this idea, though stemming from a later passage in the story, so when we get to that point, I will discuss my interpretation and idea upon the subject in more detail.


This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.

In some regards I thought the way he thought of Connie was somewhat vain, as really we do not know anything of what she is really thinking or feeling, but he tells us, oh she must be in so much pain because I am away form her.

The way he places himself between these two women with the expectation that both of them should love him is vain on his part.


But now, he is forewarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentions a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.

I have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.

He sacrifices Connie by decided after he has become engaged to her, that he really does not wish to be with her anymore, and though I am not say he should be stuck in an unhappy marriage, but ultimately Connies feelings are being sacrificed for his own desires.

And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.


Again, that lovely image of the garden, as he approaches this house of his past - how more inviting could it be and on top of that to know there will be music resounding in the parlour. This had to take Lawrence, himself, back to this childhood/adolscent days and even his first love with Jesse. His mother and Jesse had flower gardens directly in front of their houses.


the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls.

When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.

[Janine]

I had a similar thought, though slightly different, but with the same basic concept regarding this idea, though stemming from a later passage in the story, so when we get to that point, I will discuss my interpretation and idea upon the subject in more detail.

Good, glad you thought of it also; then we agree on this point and idea. I didn't want to advance too far yet, but I know it will relate to more of the story, as we go along. The quote from Michael Black's Early Fictions explains this idea of the priestess (Connie) to the witch (Winifred).


In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

I disagree with that idea, because of the fact, that I know the 'evening star' and the moon, and even the 'sun" figure prominently throughout Lawrence's literature, as special symbols to him.
In Michael Black's book it states:


We might use our modern terminology and say that Orion, the evening star, the sun are Lawrence's totem; or we might use the classical term tutelary deity. Lawrence escapes the banality of such terms by making the presences active and implying a kinship.

So I think that his veiwing this evening star on this particular night is vitally important to the story and not just one of humor. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, Dark Muse. It means so much more to the character and to the author, who is represented by the character of Coutts. No, there is a deep significance to that 'evening star' and the way it fades into night. I wrote in my last post and documented the importance of this time of night for Lawrence - the time between day and night. He sees this in a very mystical way.

Michael Black goes on to say

Certainly it is beyond popular horoscopy -- yet he is appealing to the vague inkling which underlies the debased use in popular journalism. Entirely characteristic is the compulsive or obessessional image of the naked worshipper, raising is hands to the sun, and gladely entering the cleansing sea.

In this passage I think we can see just why he bows to the star as in worship. In truth he does worship the mystery of that star and this time of evening...twilight. He even mentions that the star had been bathed in the light of the sea - "bathing in the surf of the daylight".

Dark Muse, given your user name I would think you would like these mystical star images.


But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.

There you go again, passing judgement on this guy. If so, you are also passing judgement on Lawrence, himself. I can't understand your thinking here. You are so dead-set against him. The character is merely a man with confusions/weaknesses/urges and yes, temptations. And what are you saying exactly is 'setting him up in someways, of a man who does tend to focus upon himself"?....who does not at times do that? If we don't like ourselves, then we won't like others, why do you condemn him for that? Yes, Lawrence may have been selfish at times and self-centered, but can any creative person attest to the fact they are totally 'unselfish' and not at all interested in their own well-being. Of course, Coutts knows his flaws, as Lawrence knew his as well, and he is stating them as the story goes along. This story is about 'human struggle' and how can one have human struggle, by doing everything by the book? I just feel that your whole attitude towards Coutts is one of set intolerance. If he is unsure of his impending marriage why do you assume everything between he and Connie is just as it should be. Why would he express nearly in the same statement the idea of sacrifice in connection with her name. Dark Muse, did you read Lawrence's novel "Sons and Lovers"? I ask you this because similar struggles insue in that book and the sacrifice Lawrence sees always is that of the man, not the woman. His mother was so overbearing and controlling to him he felt he was her sacrifice and this extends to the women he tries desperately to connect with.


In some regards I thought the way he thought of Connie was somewhat vain, as really we do not know anything of what she is really thinking or feeling, but he tells us, oh she must be in so much pain because I am away form her.

Isn't that an assumption on your part? I don't see him as vain, but if so, maybe that is why the word is mentioned. In my eyes I doubt that to be the true meaning, but think what you like.


The way he places himself between these two women with the expectation that both of them should love him is vain on his part.

I can't say this enough. He is a confused young man, struggling with his own thwarted desires/sexuality; there is the blantant fact that these women are not inactive in leading him on either. The women are not exonerated from blame; they share in this. One, the real woman/financee in Lawrence's life nagged him constantly, and the other represented by Winifred plays a verbal game of egging him on. I think all of the characters are willing participants in this story. We know so little about Connie in the actual story. I wish to God, Lawrence had indicated more about her, because that part is sketchy and vague. I can only surmise he cannot be totally happy with her if he strays to another. Men deeply in love and totally commited do not stray back to an former lover. Obviously something is wrong in that relationship, so it is merely implied. An engagement ring is not total commitment; truly it is not. That is why in the wedding ceremony the priest or minister or whomever performs the ritual asks if anyone opposes. One of the two who are marrying can be the one to oppose at that point.
If Coutts is being self-centered, then just maybe, he is trying to figure out how he should live the rest of his life and with whom. Yes, he does wrong, in sneaking about; the end proves that but to me it also proves he should not marry either woman. I don't think we should hate or condemn him for that.


I have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.

It is possible but I did not think that was the thought, in the very beginning of the story, to Coutts. But the story is open-ended so one can believe it to be so.



He sacrifices Connie by decided after he has become engaged to her, that he really does not wish to be with her anymore, and though I am not say he should be stuck in an unhappy marriage, but ultimately Connies feelings are being sacrificed for his own desires.

According to additional reading, it may suggest that his engagement was a pressured one and he really could not keep company with her or get to know her if they were not engaged first; apparently parents had a lot to say in these cases in the early 1900's when young men came calling and any 'repectable' girl had to become engaged first to even see the young man. In that case, I can certainly see why Coutts would then have second thoughts on marrying Connie, especially if he truly did not love her, in the way to dedicate his entire life to her. It would be better to hurt the financee now, than marry her and be miserable, which would only hurt her more in the end; like many young women of that day, who were bound by a restricted system and a contract.


And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.

Well, she does lead him up to it...right up to that fateful kiss. I can't see where she is so innocent herself. Why take a man to your house alone at night, if you don't want to go any further, not in that day and age, without a chaperone. I would say she was asking to be seduced that night. I don't think she was a sacrifice, at all. I don't think she loved Coutts. I think she wanted to have the power over him and her 'spell' is the power...which is eventually burned out with the lamp fire - extinquished by the putting out of the flames and extinquished also is Coutts desire for her. The spell is finally broken.




When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.


Yes, this thought has occurred to me before too, and you may have mentioned it earlier, Dark Muse, because now I keep seeing it that way and even with the white flowers, which seems to be so pure and significant. A thought just came to me that the alter cloth would directly relate to the idea of 'sacrifice' or a 'sacrificial alter', and that usually is white, isn't it? Such as the lamb is white, that is sacrificial in the bible.

[Dark Muse]

Good, glad you thought of it also; then we agree on this point and idea. I didn't want to advance too far yet, but I know it will relate to more of the story, as we go along. The quote from Michael Black's Early Fictions explains this idea of the priestess (Connie) to the witch (Winifred).


I disagree with that idea, because of the fact, that I know the 'evening star' and the moon, and even the 'sun" figure prominently throughout Lawrence's literature, as special symbols to him.
In Michael Black's book it states:


So I think that his veiwing this evening star on this particular night is vitally important to the story and not just one of humor. I think it goes a lot deeper than that, Dark Muse. It means so much more to the character and to the author, who is represented by the character of Coutts. No, there is a deep significance to that 'evening star' and the way it fades into night. I wrote in my last post and documented the importance of this time of night for Lawrence - the time between day and night. He sees this in a very mystical way.

Michael Black goes on to say


In this passage I think we can see just why he bows to the star as in worship. In truth he does worship the mystery of that star and this time of evening...twilight. He even mentions that the star had been bathed in the light of the sea - "bathing in the surf of the daylight".

Dark Muse, given your user name I would think you would like these mystical star images.

I did like the imagery in the story, and I did not mean to make myself unclear, but in my comments I was not focusing so much upon the image of the evening star itself, but rather the line in which he said "he was amused by his own vanity."



There you go again, passing judgement on this guy. If so, you are also passing judgement on Lawrence, himself. I can't understand your thinking here. You are so dead-set against him. The character is merely a man with confusions/weaknesses/urges and yes, temptations. And what are you saying exactly is 'setting him up in someways, of a man who does tend to focus upon himself"?....who does not at times do that? If we don't like ourselves, then we won't like others, why do you condemn him for that? Yes, Lawrence may have been selfish at times and self-centered, but can any creative person attest to the fact they are totally 'unselfish' and not at all interested in their own well-being. Of course, Coutts knows his flaws, as Lawrence knew his as well, and he is stating them as the story goes along. This story is about 'human struggle' and how can one have human struggle, by doing everything by the book? I just feel that your whole attitude towards Coutts is one of set intolerance. If he is unsure of his impending marriage why do you assume everything between he and Connie is just as it should be. Why would he express nearly in the same statement the idea of sacrifice in connection with her name. Dark Muse, did you read Lawrence's novel "Sons and Lovers"? I ask you this because similar struggles insue in that book and the sacrifice Lawrence sees always is that of the man, not the woman. His mother was so overbearing and controlling to him he felt he was her sacrifice and this extends to the women he tries desperately to connect with.

Well nothing is going to change the way I feel about him. And I am not going to get into another debate about Coutts and my views of him and his actions.

But there is one point in which you seem to often misundertand where I am coming from.

I am not trying to say I think he should get married to Connie and be unahppy if he does not truly love her or want to marry her.

What I am saying is, that he should have broken off with Connie before he ever went to see Winni again.


Isn't that an assumption on your part? I don't see him as vain, but if so, maybe that is why the word is mentioned. In my eyes I doubt that to be the true meaning, but think what you like.

That is just how he came off to me


I can't say this enough. He is a confused young man, struggling with his own thwarted desires/sexuality; there is the blantant fact that these women are not inactive in leading him on either. The women are not exonerated from blame; they share in this. One, the real woman/financee in Lawrence's life nagged him constantly, and the other represented by Winifred plays a verbal game of egging him on. I think all of the characters are willing participants in this story. We know so little about Connie in the actual story. I wish to God, Lawrence had indicated more about her, because that part is sketchy and vague. I can only surmise he cannot be totally happy with her if he strays to another. Men deeply in love and totally commited do not stray back to an former lover. Obviously something is wrong in that relationship, so it is merely implied. An engagement ring is not total commitment; truly it is not. That is why in the wedding ceremony the priest or minister or whomever performs the ritual asks if anyone opposes. One of the two who are marrying can be the one to oppose at that point.
If Coutts is being self-centered, then just maybe, he is trying to figure out how he should live the rest of his life and with whom. Yes, he does wrong, in sneaking about; the end proves that but to me it also proves he should not marry either woman. I don't think we should hate or condemn him for that.

I just do not think that just because you are not married to someone, gives you free reign to go fooling around behind thier backs. When a person preposes to another there is the expectation of a comimtent and there is the idea of some trust, honest and fatifulness in it.

I do not think anyone who is enganged would be fine with thier fiancee going to vist old flings, just because they are not yet offically married.



Well, she does lead him up to it...right up to that fateful kiss. I can't see where she is so innocent herself. Why take a man to your house alone at night, if you don't want to go any further, not in that day and age, without a chaperone. I would say she was asking to be seduced that night. I don't think she was a sacrifice, at all. I don't think she loved Coutts. I think she wanted to have the power over him and her 'spell' is the power...which is eventually burned out with the lamp fire - extinquished by the putting out of the flames and extinquished also is Coutts desire for her. The spell is finally broken.

But utlimately he is the one that decides to go with her, at the begining when they are all getting ready to leave, to my recollection Winni at that point does not acutally do anything to intince Coutts not to get on the tram with the German lady, all on his own he chooses to stay behind just becasue Winni says she is going to walk, and he wants to be near her.

[Janine]

I did like the imagery in the story, and I did not mean to make myself unclear, but in my comments I was not focusing so much upon the image of the evening star itself, but rather the line in which he said "he was amused by his own vanity."

Well, Dark Muse, I did not get that from your post, but if you say so fine. But do you understand the star significance? I think the evening star is the more significant symbol here and the fact that he bows to it.
As far as the idea of vanity - haven't you ever laughed at yourself and your own vanity? I have at times; I can understood the reason that amused him. It is human to feel a little vane sometimes.


Well nothing is going to change the way I feel about him. And I am not going to get into another debate about Coutts and my views of him and his actions.

But there is one point in which you seem to often misundertand where I am coming from.

I am not trying to say I think he should get married to Connie and be unahppy if he does not truly love her or want to marry her.

What I am saying is, that he should have broken off with Connie before he ever went to see Winni again.

That is just how he came off to me.

I just do not think that just because you are not married to someone, gives you free reign to go fooling around behind thier backs. When a person preposes to another there is the expectation of a comimtent and there is the idea of some trust, honest and fatifulness in it.

I do not think anyone who is enganged would be fine with thier fiancee going to vist old flings, just because they are not yet offically married.

But utlimately he is the one that decides to go with her, at the begining when they are all getting ready to leave, to my recollection Winni at that point does not acutally do anything to intince Coutts not to get on the tram with the German lady, all on his own he chooses to stay behind just becasue Winni says she is going to walk, and he wants to be near her.

I just can't keep doing this anymore. I am worn out and can't argue about it any longer; I disagree and that is it. You see the story one way and I see it another. I would like to drop the whole issue, as to whether you think Coutts awful or hate him, or whatever. I don't see how you can even consider the story, by seeing it so black and white, but if you choose to do so, that is your business. I am just tired of going around in circles, with the whole question of his moral code and what he should and should not have done. He is a fictional character and it is not worth elevating my blood pressure over. Our difference of opinion on the character's code of ethics, can not be resolved, so why not just drop it? I am trying my best to post parts of the text and show how the writing has been interpretted by others, who have more knowledge about Lawrence, than I could even hope to have, and then adding some of my own thoughts, as well as I know how. If I condemn the main character right away, what is the point of even disgussing this story?

Before I post the next part of the story, which is ready in my Word program to be posted (possibly tomorrow or next day), I want to wait for others to catch up and read my long post of the text and commentary, a page or so back, post #1693. I don't want to advance us further, before we all get a chance to discuss that part of the story and text. I know Antiquarian and Virgil and Quark and islandclimber haven't had a chance to review that yet. That post took me a long time to write and type references out of my books. I will wait now until they can review it. I need a break anyway for now.

[Virgil]

Before I post the next part of the story, which is ready in my Word program to be posted (possibly tomorrow or next day), I want to wait for others to catch up and read my long post of the text and commentary, a page or so back, post #1693. I don't want to advance us further, before we all get a chance to discuss that part of the story and text. I know Antiquarian and Virgil and Quark and islandclimber haven't had a chance to review that yet. That post took me a long time to write and type references out of my books. I will wait now until they can review it. I need a break anyway for now.

Yes, I need to catch up in the morning. I've been busy tonight. Sorry. I can't keep up with you guys. ;)

[Janine]

Yes, I need to catch up in the morning. I've been busy tonight. Sorry. I can't keep up with you guys. ;)

Oh good, glad to see you back, Virgil. I missed you. Were you preoccuppied, by any chance, in your 'appreciation day' thread? :lol: busy in there I bet. I must try to find it again and see any new posts.:D

Anyway, I didn't want to get too far ahead with the text. I really researched that post #1693 extensively; it took me a long time to write and I didn't want it to fade into oblivion.
I need a break now anyway. I have the next part ready to go. If I can keep one step ahead of myself offline, that would be helpful.

See you tomorrow and hope you have a nice night! J:)

[Dark Muse]

Well, Dark Muse, I did not get that from your post, but if you say so fine. But do you understand the star significance? I think the evening star is the more significant symbol here and the fact that he bows to it.

I was just trying to respond to your own post in which you specially mentioned that particular line:


This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

I did not get from this, that you were focusing on primiarly the symbolism of the star, sense here you pointed out the line about his amusment and vanity, so I was just trying to address that issue.

[Virgil]

Yes, isn't the story's beginning wonderful? I absolutely agree with this part "he's aware of his faults, aware of his weaknesses, humanizes him,"...to the extend that I could then identify with the character and his longing and his feelings of doing wrong, guilt. I think sometimes things drive a person inwardly and they are caught up in this current and this is especially true when younger. I noticed how the story is like a chain of events that lead him onward in this quest. He is swept up in the beauty of the night, his surroundings (that are familiar to him and he states he loves:

I think Lawrence had to do that. He's faced with a delimma (sp?) in writing this story. He's writing about a guy who's being unfaithful, but yet we've got to see him in some sort of positive light, otherwise it's a different story I think. The humanizing and the guilt qualify the infidelity.


Also, this strong sexual urge, that is feeding his excitement and may have a possible outlet (on a night like this) for his pent-up desires, drives him forward towards the imminent encounter with Winifred. This night described to me is a very sensual night and one made for temptation and a temptress...is not Winifred the witch/temptress? Michael Black refers to her as a 'druid princess'. Coutts not only 'sees' everything, but just imagine, he feels it and he smells it - the night, the flowers, the breeze, the glow of the lamps - this whole experience would be very alluring and inviting; it would emerse a person in another 'secret' magical/mysterious world...the night would shroud a person in wonder and longing, would it not?
Everything in the story works toward the temptation, nature, Winifred's attractiveness or should I say spell, and one thing we haven't discussed, the music. The story is filled with musical metaphors, as well as that music scene.


Dark Muse, I think that church tower is a 'forboding image', also, the way it is decribed as
"the black bulk of the church tower".
This interests me completely and I am still not quite sure what to make of it, but from other readings, I have heard Lawrence describe similiar images in his travel books on Italy, along with crucifixes and other religious symbols, also in "The Plumed Serpent". Also, the opposite is when I have heard him describe a man as luminous and a 'tower of light' or life. In the reverse this is a sort of 'tower or darkness' or looming death. As Virgil pointed out to my remark of it as a phallic symbol as well, I think this blackened church tower has multiple meanings and hidden symbolism, complex and not easily explained. It is a vey curious image, because if it being described as black, a witch color, the color of death, the color of night....
That is interesting. We do see that frequently with Lawrence. There is a similar image in The Rainbow. I've always felt that Lawrence liked Hardy's use of that image in Jude The Obscure. The church tower in Jude is very prominant if I remember. Whether Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy uses it oin Jude is a good question.


Virgil, you asked about my thoughts connecting this story with death. Ok, the church spire and the story may correspond, closer than you realise, to that event, and the idea of death or disintegration. In some way, this would lead us to a sort of 'emotional suicide' for Coutts and the ending could be interpretted as the end of both of his female relationships for Coutts.
To be honest Janine, I don't see any motif or theme or even metaphor of death in this story. I think you got that from Michael Black, and I'm just going to have to disagree with him.


I don't want to jump too far ahead, but if this was the case, Virgil, the ending to this story is quite tragic and remininscent of how Paul in "Sons and Lovers" feels at the end of the story.
There are similarities to S&L, I agree. I guess Black is going cross texts and linking things in that sense, but I like to hold each work as an individual self enclosed piece, and in my way of reading i don't really see death as a theme. I think the church, may or may not suggest phallic, but I do think it reminds the reader of conscience. Plus Connie is supposed to live in a "rectory", a residence for religious people, that's mentioned more than once, and that I think links again to conscience.


So, here Lawrence would be assosicating the 'evening star' as having been bathed in the light of the sun, when he states ' bathing in the surf of the daylight,"...but he goes on to say it is now 'walking shorewards to the night'. I know this 'evening star' is a vital sign to Lawrence - a kind of mystical omen or 'heavenly mystery' and some of his novels and stories even signifying union with a woman, but 'equal union' - as two stars are in orbit and balanced opposite each other. Virgil can explain this better. In this case, in this particular story, I also think of the star in terms of 'immortality' and perhaps Lawrence's ideas of 'eternity' and 'everlasting life'. In the one novel I read "The Plumed Serpent' they spoke often of the evening star and the morning star in conjunction with Lawrence's ideas on spirituality. It seems that this time between day and night(evening or dawn) are always vitally important to Lawrence, in his spiritual thinking. Also, the image of the star bathed in sunlight is appropriate to Lawrence in his ideas of the sun being as an object of worship, such as in the stories we already read, most notably 'Sun'. If you think of it, stars are like the sun and made up of gases that burn brightly. In a immortality sense, I think this particular star could also be a remembrance of his own mother, now residing in eternity. I thought this when he 'bowed' to it and also it conjures up thoughts of worship and spirituality; the church image supports this idea as well.

You know I did not give a lot of thought to the star imagery in this story. I think Janine is referring to the balanced star imagery in Women In Love, where the male and female are in perfect balance with each other. That's a later work and I'm not sure Lawrence had worked out that imagery yet when this story was written. I will go back and re-read that tonight. It's an interesting thought.


I looked up many references on churchs and church spires and towers last night online and found that so many, maybe in all of Lawrence novels and many of his short stories present images of churches and church steeples. I will post some of these very interesting references later, after you all get this far into the story text. One to particularly note, is in the story that we discussed months ago, "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter".
Antiquarian, I know you just read that story; do you recall the tower of the church casting a dark shadow on the cementary scene? That is so reminescent of the church tower in this 'witch' story, I believe. Any thoughts on that? I do recall that we discussed much about that scene and the church imagery. I should go back and look that up in our thread.
See my thought in the previous post on it's allusion to Hardy's Jude the Obscure. I don't know if Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy, but I do think he became infatuated with that image and used it many times.


Another idea I had about the evening star and the fading into darkness is that now he is going from the light/sun world of the priestess (Connie) into the dark witch (Winifred) realm/world of night and mystery.
That is an excellent thought!! It is something that Lawrence would definitely do and has done. Like I said, I don't know if at this early date in his career he had worked out his star/sun imagery yet. Perhaps so.


This, I partly understand, but I am not entirely sure of why he says "amused by his own vanity". Any ideas on that, anyone? Unless it means that is vanity is leading him onward away from the star.

But now, he is forwarned by the image of the 'new moon' as a blade that is 'sharp' and 'keen' and he thinks of himself as the sacrifice. I think at this time he feels he may be the sacrifice for Connie, if he goes through with the marriage. Note that immediately after this statement he mentiones a 'sense of Constance'. At the end I think we see that the sacrifice would be if he remained with either woman. But, let's just stick to his impression at the beginning of the story for now.
I took it as a sacrifice of Connie, but you may be right. Perhaps sacrifice of his innocence, or naivete.


I did read something about lamp light and how it was to Lawrence an unnatural light. I will try and research that better today. I feel that this golden light would be warm and illuminating as it "heaps golden fire on the floor of the blue-night"...the word fire again and more forshadowing of the fire at the end of the story. Image after image will appear of darkness and illumination - piano candles, lamps, shops alight, street lamps, the golden lights of the train like a serpent, the hearth and the blaze at the end....all against the backdrop of the dark, mysterious night. Interesting.
Dark Muse did suggest a distiction between natural transportation (walking) and powered (car, train, tram) transportation. Lawrence did that in amny places, but I'm not sure I can see a significance in this story. But natural and artificial light might also be significant.


In a way I thought it was just sort of a comical gesture on his part, he is looking out the window, and thinks to himself that it looks like it is greeting him, but than he just sort of laughs at himself for having such a notion as that.

The vanity I think is that he thinks he can play this game with Wini while engaged to Connie. At least that's how I read it. I also think it reinforces his youth and inexperience, and that this event will be a maturing process.


But it could be a way to help further establish his own character for the events that are later to come in the story. It sets him up in someway's, of a man whom does tend to focus upon himself and think first of himself, but also his awareness of this flaw of his.
Yes, I think that fits with what I just said.

I
have briefly touched on this idea before, but I think in a way all three of the characters could be potentially seen as being sacrificed. Connie, Coutts, and Winni. I do am not convinced that the line refers strictly to him as being the one have to sacrifice himself.
Good point. I hadn't thought that. Although I'm not sure how Wini gets sacrificed. She seems to be in control. In fact after the initial shock she has in finding Coutts at the house, she has all the power in the story. She's the witch who casts a spell and breaks off the spell at her whim.


And though Winni is more aware of the situation and what she is getting herself into, in a way she is sacrificed because it seems that ultimately he uses her only to satisfy his physical desires, his attraction to her seems primarily a sexual one as he becomes angry once he realizes she only wants him to kiss her and does not want anything else from him. He does not seem to genuinely love her beyond his passion for her.
Though I think Coutts actually sought encountering Wini, I'm convinced now that it's Wini who reels him in and manipulates the situation to cast her spell.


When I read this, it made me think of an altar cloth, and the house when we get to the part, has an almost temple like feeling to it, with the music, and the vivid description of the statues.
Good thought. That's quite typical in Lawrence's work. he's always drawing on religious/magical mysteries.

Hey, I think I'm caught up. :)

[Dark Muse]

It hurt him to give pain to his fiancee, and yet he did it wilfully.

Coutts is aware that Connie will be hurt, but he can't help himself
.

But doing somwthing willfully, is the exzact oppisite of not being able to help yourself. If he does it willfully, than he is fully aware of the fact that he is doing it, and he is in fact making the choice to do it.

[Janine]

Hi Everybody.....Wowy! I am totally overwhelmed now! Can we slow up a bit, eveyone? I didn't want to jump too far ahead in the story but some good points have been brought up and I will try to address all that has been written eventually. I really do like what everyone wrote so far, everyone is thinking hard about the imagery and symbolism and that is great, but do want to stick with the next part of the story which is up to 'when the door opens to the cottage and and we are introduced to the people and the interior of the house.
So, I will go back now and try to answer all your posts that talk about up the text up until this part and answer the others in the next part of text I will soon post.
Antiquarian, I like everything you researched and I hate to criticise you but I have to ask, do you know how to put the quoted parts in quotes. I find you post a little hard to read. I have bifocals and really take off my glasses to read online but the type gets so small when put into italics. If you don't know how to enclose in the quotes let me know and I will tell you. I only recently discovered myself there is a tab on the menu that does it automatically when you hightlight the text will composing it.

[Quark]

Can we slow up a bit, eveyone?

A short pause would help me. I need to reread the story and find time to look at all the posts. I didn't mean to be absent for so long, but we've moved at a pace that's left me behind. From what I've seen, though, the conversation has been pretty good.

[Dark Muse]

Sense you have brought up the scene at Laura's house I thought I would post some of the passages, particularly that of the statues, which I think is a most vivid description.


Mrs. Braithwhite chattered one, laughing all the time. She was a young widow, whose husband had been dead two years. Of medium height, sanguine in complexion and temper, there was a rich oily glisten in her skin and in her black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut. She was dressed for the evening in a long gown of soft, mole-coloured satin.

Though she does not play a large role in the story, I loved this description of Mrs. Braithwhite. To me the way she was described conjured up the image of a witch. With the black hair, and the mole colored satin dress. I also love the use of the word sanguine here. I also found the nut reference to be interesting, nuts themselves often act as powerful symbols in paganism.


She let Coutts into a small, very warm room that had a dark, foreign sheen, owing to the black of the curtains and hangings covered thick with glistening Indian embroidery, and to the sleekness of some Indian ware.

I loved this description and I found it really quite interesting. I think the dark, foreign feel to it, and the Indian reference give it a sort of exotic feeling. And I think early on someone mentioned a dream like quality to the encounter between Coutts and Winni, and I think this sort of setting up the idea of somewhere far away or a sort of escape can go along with that idea.


They adjourned into the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in a dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shinning white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet height. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

This is one of my favorite passages in the story, and it is ripe with sensuality, as well as sexuality, I think it really does set up the events in the story that are to come.

I found the line:


He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination.

Though he knows the setting and the people and has been here before, there is something different about this visit, perhaps, it is suggesting that after his separation from Winni, now that he has been united with her, he is becoming re-enchanted by her.


Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen.

This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"

One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.

The presence of the mirrors seems almost in direct contrast with the passion invoked by the statues, as such feelings of desire and temptation occur without thought or refection upon ones action, but they are heat of the moment.


She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins

This was a great line.


Hi Everybody.....Wowy! I am totally overwhelmed now! Can we slow up a bit, eveyone?

Hope I did not go too far ahead, there were just some passages in the section Antiquarian brought up that I wanted to address. But I will stop there for now.

[Janine]

I think Lawrence had to do that. He's faced with a delimma (sp?) in writing this story. He's writing about a guy who's being unfaithful, but yet we've got to see him in some sort of positive light, otherwise it's a different story I think. The humanizing and the guilt qualify the infidelity.

Virgil! How are you today? Glad to see you back again, thanks for reading my posts.

To your post I say definitely so and well put. No one is perfect, so we can try and identify with some part of the character, even if we have only felt a small tempation in our own lives. If we are totally pure and never knew what it is like to be tempted, maybe we can't, who knows? But, who on earth can say that? No one is with out sin; if we were, we would be angels. I don't know about you, but I am no angel. The facts, of his own weakness and awareness of potential wrong doing, from the very beginning of the story, makes him human in our eyes (connect Coutts to us) and mades the story possible. If we could not connect with Coutts character the story would be meaningless.


Everything in the story works toward the temptation, nature, Winifred's attractiveness or should I say spell, and one thing we haven't discussed, the music. The story is filled with musical metaphors, as well as that music scene.

I had thought of the music, too. I thought I added that to the list; guess I missed it, so thanks of mentioning that. Yes, the music is definitely a big part of the story and would be very intoxicating, don't you think?....and that violin and the piano are mentioned at the end, as well. They are symbols of that same 'intoxication' of the night and the music. One reason perhaps, the red anemones sit on the piano, and draw attention to those musical images - but lets explore that more later on, when we get to that part of the text and see exactly how it is worded.

I am sure Coutts does focus on himself. But don't we all do that daily? I am confused about the significance of such a statement of 'a man who focuses on himself'? We all have these little internal dialogues daily don't we. We all question constantly decisions we make on a daily basis and even long term ones. We all focus basically on the person we know the best - ourselves. In this case I think Coutts is focusing on himself and trying to 'find himself', as well. As I said many times so far in this discussion, he is young and very confused, most notably with his own manhood and sexuality. Interesting thought just came to me 'monkshood' sounds similar to 'manhood' or looks so at a glance.


That is interesting. We do see that frequently with Lawrence. There is a similar image in The Rainbow. I've always felt that Lawrence liked Hardy's use of that image in Jude The Obscure. The church tower in Jude is very prominant if I remember. Whether Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy uses it oin Jude is a good question.

Yes, and I read about the one in "The Rainbow". I have collected quotes from each story and book where a church tower, spire plays a prominent role in the writing. There is much symbolism connected with church towers. I wonder now also if Lawrence did not, at least relate, to that image in the Thomas Hardy novel "Jude, the Obscure" and others of Hardy's. Often towers and church spired have been evident and meaningful in Hardy's work. But also, I think in Lawrence own immediate area where he grew up churches and church spires were very much a dominent part of the landscape and part of the English way of life. I don't think it unusual he would employ these images in his works but he does it so well, with church towers casting dark shadows. In the case of "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter" it was on the graveyard and the graves, which does indicate a suggestion of death and mystery.


To be honest Janine, I don't see any motif or theme or even metaphor of death in this story. I think you got that from Michael Black, and I'm just going to have to disagree with him.

I don't think I got that from Michael Black. I think I got that idea from the Timeline book, combined with several biographies. I think the idea just came to me and witches are connected with death such as a witches brew with dead things to make up a potion. I just felt the use of all the black imagery and the heavenly references suggested death; even eternity with the star. But also, I am thinking more of an emotional death. As Antiquarian later points out in her post, Winifred would have been overpowering to Coutts and in a sense, I believe that would have been a sort of 'death', or 'sacrifice' of Coutts, as well.


There are similarities to S&L, I agree. I guess Black is going cross texts and linking things in that sense, but I like to hold each work as an individual self enclosed piece, and in my way of reading i don't really see death as a theme. I think the church, may or may not suggest phallic, but I do think it reminds the reader of conscience. Plus Connie is supposed to live in a "rectory", a residence for religious people, that's mentioned more than once, and that I think links again to conscience.

Believe it or not, Black is cross references "The Tresspasser" more so, and now it has made me want to read that play. He also cross-references some of aspects of the story with "The Shades of Spring"...I thought of that story as well, when reading this story for the first time. The commentary is complicated and Antiquarian has found it online, so if she can provide the link, we all can read it. I believe it is the same one, I have in my book by Black on "The Early Fiction". It is a good reference book, Virgi.



You know I did not give a lot of thought to the star imagery in this story. I think Janine is referring to the balanced star imagery in Women In Love, where the male and female are in perfect balance with each other. That's a later work and I'm not sure Lawrence had worked out that imagery yet when this story was written. I will go back and re-read that tonight. It's an interesting thought.

I was thinking of that star imagery in WIL, but I felt unsure about that, too. I think that he had the seeds of the thought, but like you said, this idea was not yet developed. I think in "Sons and Lovers" there is a star image mentioned at the end of the novel, in conjunction with his mother. I will look that up. That is more feasible to me to explain what the evening and morning stars or a single star meant to Lawrence at this time in his life. Michael Black says it is a special Lawrence omen. Omens would go along with nights of enchantment and being under the spell of a witch. Do not witches deal in codes, symbols, special language, omens, predictions, etc?


See my thought in the previous post on it's allusion to Hardy's Jude the Obscure. I don't know if Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy, but I do think he became infatuated with that image and used it many times.

Yes, now I see he did become quite infatuated with the image of the church tower/spire extending upward to the heavens. It is a very important symbol to Lawrence. In his later work "The Plumed Serpent" the church and it's towers play a prominent role in the structure of the story, they have become converted into a temple for the old gods. Bells ring out from the towers hourly, which also signify something particular.


That is an excellent thought!! It is something that Lawrence would definitely do and has done. Like I said, I don't know if at this early date in his career he had worked out his star/sun imagery yet. Perhaps so.

Thanks! Yes, he does tend to repeat images and ideas/symbolism. It seems stars/suns/churches do predate to this period. Over time the ideas will evolve and change somewhat.


I took it as a sacrifice of Connie, but you may be right. Perhaps sacrifice of his innocence, or naivete.

I think the sacrifice is to Connie, however if he had had a fully sexual encouter with Winifred I think he would have been sacrificed, as well, because I don't see either woman as right for Coutts. humm...I don't know aobut sacrifice of his innocence. This I did not think of and I don't think it is such...but I am not sure either. I don't think he is naive either.


Dark Muse did suggest a distiction between natural transportation (walking) and powered (car, train, tram) transportation. Lawrence did that in amny places, but I'm not sure I can see a significance in this story. But natural and artificial light might also be significant.

Yes, they too play prominently into Lawrence's stories. I thought the most interesting was the image of the train as a 'golden snake'..we will get to that later when the scene/text comes up.


The vanity I think is that he thinks he can play this game with Wini while engaged to Connie. At least that's how I read it. I also think it reinforces his youth and inexperience, and that this event will be a maturing process.

Male vanity, then? I do think it reinforces his youth and inexperience and this event will definitely be a maturing process in the end.



Yes, I think that fits with what I just said.

Yes, he is human since he sees his flaws.


Good point. I hadn't thought that. Although I'm not sure how Wini gets sacrificed. She seems to be in control. In fact after the initial shock she has in finding Coutts at the house, she has all the power in the story. She's the witch who casts a spell and breaks off the spell at her whim.

I don't think the one to suffer will be Winifred. I think she is way stronger than that and she is powerful and in control. Exactly, she does exert the power (spell) over Coutts after the shock of the initial meeting. She is the "Witch a la Mode" afterall! I believe she it the one to break off the spell, I would rather determine that for certain at the end of the story text.


Though I think Coutts actually sought encountering Wini, I'm convinced now that it's Wini who reels him in and manipulates the situation to cast her spell.

Why else would she be considered the witch in this story. Witches and enchantresses cast the spell on young men in lore. I think of characters such as Lancelot. I will bring that up later, since Michael Black sites some references to various legends to relate to things that are said in this story - one being "The Lady of Shallot".


Good thought. That's quite typical in Lawrence's work. he's always drawing on religious/magical mysteries.

Yes, always. I can't recall a prose work when he did not do so, can you Virgil?



Hey, I think I'm caught up. :)

Yes, good job on your post, Virgil. You are caught up but I have barely scratched the surface.

Onward I march to the next posts and comments.


Hope I did not go too far ahead, there were just some passages in the section Antiquarian brought up that I wanted to address. But I will stop there for now.

Dark Muse....well, you did go on a little far and somethings repeat my own comments, I did offline last night and I want to comment on what you say, too. I asked if we could hold up a bit, so I could post that and I really personally need to catch up...so does Quark; Can I still post the next part of the text, all underlined with a few comments? I was thinking I would just add on Antiquarian's, as I go along...and I can add your new post as well.

Is that ok, Antiquarian? I think you got a little bit enthused and pushed ahead to the text which I did not yet post; but I am so happy to see your enthusiam in this thread...I really am and so glad you researched the story further. Fun, isn't it?
Presently though, we need to slow up a bit...I can't keep up at this fast rate.

However, Antiquarian, I do think we are making you into a Lawrence convert.;) :lol: I will try to answer the parts that apply to how far we got in the text.

Dark Muse, I understand about the star and the feeling of vanity. I guess I did ask if anyone had any ideas on the statement of the vanity. I do think the star is a prominent symbol. I guess I wondered why they were within the same statement or single thought of Coutts.

Here is the first part of Antiquarian's post that applies to the following part of the story and the text before that:


I'm trying to catch up with the other posters, so I'm sorry if I've repeated anything here. These are just my impressions. Please feel free to comment or just to skip over anything that's redundant.

Wow, we all are trying to play ‘catch up’! It is getting a little confusing, to say the least, but I will try my best to answer all you wrote, Antiquarian:



When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.

Coutts knows he's in danger of seeing Winifred, and he knows seeing Winifred is, in fact, danger.

"I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."

Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.

He feels bad about not continuing on to Connie's, but he realizes he's pleased at the prospect of seeing Winifred again.

Above the coloring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung sharp and kenn Something recoiled in him. "It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice...I wonder for whom?"

Is Connie to be sacrified or Coutts? I think it's both of them. I think it's their relationship that's to be sacrificed.

I think it is eventually the outcome, and the perhaps the 'sacrifice'; but I think, when he questions himself in the begining he is referring the sacrifice in conjunction with the idea of being married to Connie. Later he might consider the 'sacrifice' to refer to the idea of his affair with with Winifred (druid priestess, witch), if it were indeed realised. Etiher woman would have smothered him, had the had hold of him fully.

All the rest (above) I agree with.


Then, there's the conversation about free will.

Laura says regarding why we do things:

"I'm sure I don't know. Why do we? Because we want to, I suppose."

A few lines later, her father says:

"I suppose...it's because we can't help it - eh?"

We do things for two reasons - because we want to and sometimes, because we simply can't help doing them. Coutts realizes:


It hurt him to give pain to his fiancee, and yet he did it wilfully.

Coutts is aware that Connie will be hurt, but he can't help himself.

Yes, and then the go onto mention the now dead debate about “Free Will. I wondered why it was capitalized. Is it because it was an published article or topic publically?

Yes, agreed with last line.

Antiquarian I am going to take all of your posts and put them in my offline file, to answer as I go along, with that part of the text, as we come to it. I can't jump this far ahead in my mind yet, but you do bring up a lot of good points and good questions, that I promise to address individually.

I am sorry to be so confused at this point but I want to post the next part of the text which Dark Muse and you have already commented on some of the points. Sorry to back up the wagon like this but even Quark said he is totally lost now. If we stick to some type of sequence we can all get back ontrack. Is that ok. I want to really read your three posts offline so I can get a better understanding of what you say and what you ask here.

I know that if I post this next part Quark is going to be a little behind and Dark Muse and some of what Antiquarian is going to get repeated, not doubt (if that be the case with anyone, I am really really sorry. I wrote this yesterday). Later tonight I will go back and copy both Antiquarian's and DM's posts and try to answer those below.

************************************************** *****

So here is the next part of the text:


Mrs. Braithwaite herself opened the door to him.
"There!" she exclaimed. "I expected you. I had your card saying you would cross from Dieppe to-day. You wouldn't make up your mind to come here, not till the last minute, would you? No--that's what I expected. You know where to put your things; I don't think we've altered anything in the last year."
Antiquarian, is Dieppe in France, do you know? I am asking because I am curious since I read the first version of this story had Coutts returning from France.
This woman knows him very well and his ways of doing things on impulse apparently. Also the mention of not altering anything after a year would suggest he is taking in even more so to his past like in a dream.

Mrs. Braithwaite chattered on, laughing all the time. She was a young widow, whose husband had been dead two years. Of medium height, sanguine in complexion and temper, there was a rich oily glisten in her skin and in her black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut. She was dressed for the evening in a long gown of soft, mole-coloured satin.
I think this description of Mrs. Braithwaite is interesting and pretty graphic. I especially thought the way he describes her ‘rich oily glisten in her skin’ and the ‘black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut’….doen’t sound too flattering really. She is dressed in soft a subdued color ‘mole-coloured’ satin. She is sanguine (cheerful, or ruddy, red) in complexion and temper. She seems to be a person always chattering and laughing.

"Of course, I'm delighted you've come," she said at last, lapsing into conventional politeness, and then, seeing his eyes, she began to laugh at her attempt at formality.
So again, they know each other quite well, he sees her down to earth and not pretentious or formal.


She let Coutts into a small, very warm room that had a dark, foreign sheen, owing to the black of the curtains and hangings covered thick with glistening Indian embroidery, and to the sleekness of some Indian ware.
I wondered about this part with the words foreign sheen and then the mention of the Indian embroidery and pottery ware. Could it suggest the idea of travel and foreign lands? I like the way the room is described as such. It feels warm and inviting and interesting.


A rosy old gentleman, with exquisite white hair and side-whiskers, got up shakily and stretched out his hand. His cordial expression of welcome was rendered strange by a puzzled, wondering look of old age, and by a certain stiffness of his countenance, which now would only render a few expressions. He wrung the newcomer's hand heartily, his manner contrasting pathetically with his bowed and trembling form.
It seems this old man has seen his day and now is retired to his little room of memories.

"Oh, why--why, yes, it's Mr. Coutts! H'm--ay. Well, and how are you--h'm? Sit down, sit down." The old man rose again, bowing, waving the young man into a chair. "Ay! well, and how are you? . . . What? Have some tea--come on, come along; here's the tray. Laura, ring for fresh tea for Mr. Courts. But I will do it." He suddenly remembered his old gallantry, forgot his age and uncertainty. Fumbling, he rose to go to the bell-pull.
"It's done, Pater--the tea will be in a minute," said his daughter in high, distinct tones. Mr. Cleveland sank with relief into his chair.

The word “gallantry” stands out since this is very much like a dreamworld for Coutts. For this man his gallant days are done, but he may have had a life of great freedom and adventure at one time. At anyrate the man and daughter both do their best to make Coutts feel at home and comfortable, from the moment he steps into their house.


"You know, I'm beginning to be troubled with rheumatism," he explained in confidential tones. Mrs. Braithwaite glanced at the young man and smiled. The old gentleman babbled and chattered. He had no knowledge of his guest beyond the fact of his presence; Coutts might have been any other young man, for all his host was aware.
So really to the old man “Coutts might have been any other young man”. His babbling and chattering might just be his way now in his old age.


"You didn't tell us you were going away. Why didn't you?" asked Laura, in her distinct tones, between laughing and reproach. Coutts looked at her ironically, so that she fidgeted with some crumbs on the cloth.
"I don't know," he said. "Why do we do things?"
"I'm sure I don't know. Why do we? Because we want to, I suppose," and she ended again with a little run of laughter. Things were so amusing, and she was so healthy.
So, Laura asks Coutts, rather pointedly, why he went away and then she is nervous and fidgets a bit, waiting for him to answer. Coutts answers that he does not know, evading a true answer. So he doesn’t know why he went away to begin with or he doesn’t want to tell her. Now Laura ends up answering for him in the last statement, “Because we want to, I suppose”. The scene is perceived as ‘amusing’ and Laura, as being ‘so healthy’. Who is perceiving that – Coutts?

"Why do we do things, Pater?" she suddenly asked in a loud voice, glancing with a little chuckle of laughter at Coutts.
"Ay--why do we do things? What things?" said the old man, beginning to laugh with his daughter.
"Why, any of the things that we do."
"Eh? Oh!" The old man was illuminated, and delighted. "Well, now, that's a difficult question. I remember, when I was a little younger, we used to discuss Free Will--got very hot about it . . ." He laughed, and Laura laughed, then said, in a high voice:
"Oh! Free Will! We shall really think you're passé, if you revive that, Pater."
Mr. Cleveland looked puzzled for a moment. Then, as if answering a conundrum, he repeated:
"Why do we do things? Now, why do we do things?"
So, we already did discuss much of this idea of free will as opposed to the idea of fate ruling our destinies. I was wondering why they capitalized Free Will. Also, why is Laura saying he will be thought of now as passé?


I will get to requoting of DM's later...sorry, I am not skipping over your post; this is temporary.

[Dark Muse]

I will get to requoting of DM's later...sorry, I am not skipping over your post; this is temporary.

It is quite allright, I did not mean to move too far ahead.

[Virgil]

I'm behind again. :(

[Janine]

It is quite allright, I did not mean to move too far ahead.


I didn't mean to move too far ahead, either, Janine. I just wanted to catch up after my slacking. ;) I don't mind waiting at all.

Dark Muse and Antiquarian, Thanks for your understanding. I guess I am was feeling a little bogged down, and totally overwhelmed when I saw so many post suddenly. I just was trying to stay focused and organised and I find it too confusing and disjointed when we charge ahead with ideas, that extend deep into the story or to the ending. I think if we do that we will miss a lot of the symbolism and significant words. I know how hard it is to hold back, because I find this true of myself. I get an idea, and right away I want to post it. A good idea would be to write these down in your offline program and keep a shortcut to the desktop, then minimise it and can pull it and post it at the appropriate time. I try to do this now, all the time and it works out great.
I think we are mostly caught up and I will post more of both your posts soon.

I just wanted to give a little time or a short break, so that hopefully Quark and Virgil can catch up. I guess Quark did not realise the official start of the story was this month; he probably thought it would start as we normally do on the first (May).

I think next time that I post the text segment, I will only underline key words and then all of you can go ahead and talk about each part underlined or whatever else comes to you referring to that section. Then afterwards, I can post some comments of my own or on what you have said. How does that sound? To me that sounds a bit easier and clearer.

Antiquarian, I have the remainder of your text offline and I am about to copy Dark Muse's as well. Then I will post them right after I post the next part of the text, so hang-in there because those posts will not be forgotten, I promise.

And Virgil, You are not behind because I put the reigns on these two speed demons!:lol: oh no that was another dumb pun - demons and witches! You were right, this should have been a Halloween story, although it is set in the spring. You commented on the first section of text I posted and then I just posted this second set which starts with the cottage door being opened. We were waiting for you and I am holding back comments on some part of Dark Muse and Antiquarian's post to post after the comments when they enter the parlour of Laura's house. So to catch up just start with my last really long one because I requoted their comments and I posted this second part of the text (post #1712 - halfway down the page).

I am also waiting a bit now for Quark,although he is really far behind I believe; he still could catch up, I suppose.

[Virgil]

After the musical interlude, Miss Syfert suggests they all take the tram. After Miss Syfert gets on, Winifred says:

Oh, don't rush too fast off this musical interlude. Here's the exact passage:

Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.

And then we get many musical metaphors thoughout the story. You point one out here:

Her note had that intense reedy quality which always set the man on edge;...or, more often, of her tortured sense of discord.
The music is a charm casting medium. It seems from here on that Coutts is put under Wini's spell.


"No,...I prefer to walk this stage."

It is Winifred, not Coutts, who makes the decision to separate from Miss Syfert at this stage. Winifred has begun to cast her spell around Coutts, as she knows she can.

Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.

Coutts feels terrible about leaving Miss Syfert alone on the tram, but yet does so. Has Winifred already taken possession of his free will?
I don't know. I can't make up my mind if Lawrence is supporting free will or determinism. Perhaps the point is to make it ambiguous, hold the reader under both possibilities. It is somewhat unclear in life and so could Lawrence be tring to capture that ambiguity? It is "The Witch A La Mode". What does he mean by "a la mode"?

[Dark Muse]

I don't know. I can't make up my mind if Lawrence is supporting free will or determinism. Perhaps the point is to make it ambiguous, hold the reader under both possibilities. It is somewhat unclear in life and so could Lawrence be tring to capture that ambiguity? It is "The Witch A La Mode". What does he mean by "a la mode"?

I had to look up just what "a la mode" meant, and apperently it is french of "in style" or "in the fasion of"

It is an interesting choice for the tilte of this story, and I am not entirely sure just what the meaning of it could be.

Perhaps the more liberal ides expressed in Coutts and Winnis behavor to each other. She could be seen as a very free modern sort of women, as she does not seem to have any intention of getting married, nor wish to.

[Janine]

Oh, don't rush too fast off this musical interlude. Here's the exact passage:


And then we get many musical metaphors thoughout the story. You point one out here:

The music is a charm casting medium. It seems from here on that Coutts is put under Wini's spell.


I don't know. I can't make up my mind if Lawrence is supporting free will or determinism. Perhaps the point is to make it ambiguous, hold the reader under both possibilities. It is somewhat unclear in life and so could Lawrence be tring to capture that ambiguity? It is "The Witch A La Mode". What does he mean by "a la mode"?

Virgil, this is good, what you wrote, but I didn't get that far in the text. Should I post the next section, then? I copied out Antiquarian's and Dark Muse's posts to post right after. This time I will merely underline the key phrases and you all can interpret it. I have to go out tomorrow, so I had better do this now.

Isn't 'al la mode' on the side? Antiquarian you must know this; your husband is French. My American dictionary says: 1. in fashion 2. served in a certain style. Is that the only definitions for it?

[Dark Muse]

A la cart is on the side

[Janine]

Deleted this post and posted it on the next page...hope that is not too confusing. I think it better to start fresh.

[Virgil]

From an online dictionary:

à la mode
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ah luh mohd, al-uh-; Fr. a la mawd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. in or according to the fashion.
2. Cookery. a. (of pie or other dessert) served with a portion of ice cream, often as a topping: apple pie à la mode.
b. (of beef) larded and braised or stewed with vegetables, herbs, etc., and served with a rich brown gravy.


Also, a la mode, alamode.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1640–50; < F]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

[Virgil]

A la mode is "in the style of." A la carte is "one the side," or "extra." Got this from my French husband. ;)

Apple pie a la mode is apple pie with ice-cream. It's pie in "that style."

Wow, it just dawned on me Anti. You have a French husband who's a cook. Oh the meals at your house must be great!!!! ;)

[Janine]

From an online dictionary:

à la mode
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ah luh mohd, al-uh-; Fr. a la mawd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. in or according to the fashion.
2. Cookery. a. (of pie or other dessert) served with a portion of ice cream, often as a topping: apple pie à la mode.
b. (of beef) larded and braised or stewed with vegetables, herbs, etc., and served with a rich brown gravy.


Also, a la mode, alamode.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1640–50; < F]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

:lol: :lol: ;) Or we could call the story "(larded) fat, herby witch" or we could call it "Witch smothered in ice-cream" or "fashionable witch".....I think Lawrence picked the more apropo title, don't you?

Antiquarian, yes, that is the exact book I own. It is a good book. Actually the commentary on "Witch a la Mode" begins at the bottom of page 29, this link takes us to 30. It is only a little portion and I posted that (quoting) from the book about 5 pages back now. In fact, I posted a whole segment of that box text in my introduction or shorty after. I think it got buried. I was planning to post more of that commentary later on.
Oh, sorry, I did just notice you pointed out you do have to scroll back to that.

Did everyone see the portion of text I did post last night late? I went up to the part where Coutts and Wini part from the German lady, I think. I guess my post already got buried; I'll go hunt for it. I did not comment on anything (leaving that to all of you) and I was going to add Antiquarian and Dark Muse's posts referring to that section today. I merely underlined key passages and words or sentences. Be back after I find it.

I reposted the text below and deleted my old post.

Yes, Virgil, isn't Antiquarian the luckiest, she and her hubby are chefs and eat yummy all the time. She has some great recipes...ummm.


Here is your earlier commentary which I answered (in bold), Antiquarian:

Quotes by Antiquarian

When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.

Coutts knows he's in danger of seeing Winifred, and he knows seeing Winifred is, in fact, danger.

"I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."

Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.

He feels bad about not continuing on to Connie's, but he realizes he's pleased at the prospect of seeing Winifred again.

Above the coloring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung sharp and kenn Something recoiled in him. "It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice...I wonder for whom?"

Is Connie to be sacrified or Coutts? I think it's both of them. I think it's their relationship that's to be sacrificed.

I think that is eventually the outcome, both being sacrificed, but I think when Coutts now questions himself about this idea, he is either referring to the his own state if her were married Connie, he would be sacrificed and then later it could refer to, if he consummated his desires fully with Winifred (druid priestess, witch). Etiher woman would have sacrificed the 'true' core of the person he is and smothered Coutts.

Below are the comments by Dark Muse (these were posted earlier but apply to up to this next section of text, only.

Quotes by Dark Muse

Sense you have brought up the scene at Laura's house I thought I would post some of the passages, particularly that of the statues, which I think is a most vivid description.


Mrs. Braithwhite chattered one, laughing all the time. She was a young widow, whose husband had been dead two years. Of medium height, sanguine in complexion and temper, there was a rich oily glisten in her skin and in her black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut. She was dressed for the evening in a long gown of soft, mole-coloured satin.
Though she does not play a large role in the story, I loved this description of Mrs. Braithwhite. To me the way she was described conjured up the image of a witch. With the black hair, and the mole colored satin dress. I also love the use of the word sanguine here. I also found the nut reference to be interesting, nuts themselves often act as powerful symbols in paganism.

That is quite interesting about the nut being a powerful symbol of paganism. Can you expound on that? DM




She let Coutts into a small, very warm room that had a dark, foreign sheen, owing to the black of the curtains and hangings covered thick with glistening Indian embroidery, and to the sleekness of some Indian ware.

I loved this description and I found it really quite interesting. I think the dark, foreign feel to it, and the Indian reference give it a sort of exotic feeling. And I think early on someone mentioned a dream like quality to the encounter between Coutts and Winni, and I think this sort of setting up the idea of somewhere far away or a sort of escape can go along with that idea.


DM, I loved that passage too, and thought maybe it evoked the idea of travel/foreign exotic lands, as well; especially since we have so much mention of trains and trams and travel in this story; even Coutts having just come from Diepe; thank Antiquarian, for letting me know that was in France and in what proximity to the area that Coutts now finds himself.

I decided to repost that part of the story and delete my old post...so here goes....less confusing this way, I think...

Ok, here is the next part of the text underlining some key phrases and words:


Presently there arrived a German lady with whom Coutts was slightly acquainted. At about half-past seven came Winifred Varley. Courts heard the courtly old gentleman welcoming her in the hall, heard her low voice in answer. When she entered, and saw him, he knew it was a shock to her, though she hid it as well as she could. He suffered too. After hesitating for a second in the doorway, she came forward, shook hands without speaking, only looking at him with rather frightened blue eyes. She was of medium height, sturdy in build. Her face was white and impassive, without the least trace of a smile. She was a blonde of twenty-eight, dressed in a white gown [/Qb]just short enough not to touch the ground. Her throat was solid and strong, her arms heavy and white and beautiful, her [b]blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion. When she had turned away from Coutts, she flushed vividly. He could see the pink in her arms and throat, and he flushed in answer.

"That blush would hurt her," he said to himself, wincing.
"I did not expect to see you," she said, with a reedy timbre of voice, as if her throat were half-closed. It made his nerves tingle.
"No--nor I you. At least . . ." He ended indefinitely.
"You have come down from Yorkshire?" she asked. Apparently she was cold and self-possessed. Yorkshire meant the Rectory where his fiancée lived; he felt the sting of sarcasm.
"No," he answered. "I am on my way there."
There was a moment's pause. Unable to resolve the situation

, she turned abruptly to her hostess.
"Shall we play, then?"
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.

The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.


Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.


All the evening, little was said, save by Laura. Miss Syfurt exclaimed continually: "Oh, that is fine! You play gra-and, Miss Varley, don't you know. If I could play the violin--ah! the violin!"
It was not later than ten o'clock when Winifred and Miss Syfurt rose to go, the former to Croydon, the latter to Ewell.
"We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.

"Yes, I am glad," he answered.

He took up Winifred's violin, and the three proceeded downhill to the tram-terminus. There a car was on the point of departure. They hurried forward. Miss Syfurt mounted the step. Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:
"Come along, please, if you're going."
"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."
"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.
The conductor rang the bell.
"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"
"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.
"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.
"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.




Have fun with it today or tonight! I have ideas, but will hold up for now.

[Dark Muse]

That is quite interesting about the nut being a powerful symbol of paganism. Can you expound on that? DM[/b]

Many trees were often held as sacred in Pagansim, and the wood of those trees were seen to have certain magical properties, and so often times nuts from various different trees would be used in making charms and talismans.

Nuts also can be symbolic of fertility, and in many different Pagan Celebrations and Ceremonies incoperating nuts into the feast is comon, nuts are used in varrious ways in a lot of tradidtional Pagan receipies.

Varrious nuts were also beleived to have certain healing properties




DM, I loved that passage too, and thought maybe it evoked the idea of travel/foreign exotic lands, as well; especially since we have so much mention of trains and trams and travel in this story; even Coutts having just come from Diepe; thank Antiquarian, for letting me know that was in France and in what proximity to the area that Coutts now finds himself.

Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.

[Janine]

Many trees were often held as sacred in Pagansim, and the wood of those trees were seen to have certain magical properties, and so often times nuts from various different trees would be used in making charms and talismans.

Nuts also can be symbolic of fertility, and in many different Pagan Celebrations and Ceremonies incoperating nuts into the feast is comon, nuts are used in varrious ways in a lot of tradidtional Pagan receipies.

Varrious nuts were also beleived to have certain healing properties

Dark Muse, Thanks, that was interesting; it might directly relate to the ideas in the story of potions and witches. It might just be the way he saw her skin. Decriptions like this were not that uncommon of Lawrence; als it links Laura to nature. I like all of these thoughts and find them of inportance. Thanks!



Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.

Yes, since Antiquarian was questioning the significance of trams and trains and Coutts comes on a train to begin with I thought of travel when I read the passage about the old man's room. Why else would it be described like that? I think the idea of travel and being free go hand in hand in Lawrence's eyes so it may have been so in this story; Coutts was coming back from France and I read that Lawrence had made quite a number of journeys there, at this time. He really wanted to get away from England and it's restrains. So Connie could not only represent a marital retraint, but also a total life-style/socialogical restraint for Coutts (Lawrence). He would have been rooted now in England for good, had he married Connie.


My oldest brother is complaining of gaining weight! LOL

I'll be back to read your commentary later, Janine. We are barbecuing. LOL

Antiquarian, Tell your brother that is my problem, too! My son seems to think running will remedy that or cycling, of course the second can be dangerous if you are my son...*sigh...sigh*

Have a great barbecue! Serve your brother a piece of chicken tonight or burger with no roll. :lol:
I am going out to dinner with my mom very shortly. See you all later on.

[Janine]

As Winifred plays the violin, she seems to be a living embodiment of the Venus statue. Venus, the goddess of love, beckoning to Coutts.

Yes, I totally agree with that observation and idea. I could see that as I was underlining the text. Also, the Venus idea directly relates to the heavenly elements and the Godess of Love or the 'feminine', in astology. Isn't the morning star ruled by Venus? I am not sure but I will look that up.



Coutts actually wants to take the tram with Miss Syfert to West Croydon and then walk from there. It's Winifred who wants to walk the entire way, and of course, we know Coutts gives in to her wishes. She's already cast her spell on him.

Exactly; 'the witch a la mode' is doing her magic on him. I like this idea so much. Yes, he is even saddened by the fact that they don't go on with the kind older lady. He feels they hurt her.

Antiquarian, Shall I post the rest of your commentary about the interior of the room and also Dark Muse's commentary, when we enter the parlour and see the concert, just up until the two are left alone walking alone? I can do that, when I come back from eating out or you can repost those comments from your earlier posts?

[Dark Muse]

I can respost my coments regaurding the statues as I think we have already addressed my previous coments.

[Quark]

Ok, here is the next part of the text underlining some key phrases and words:

Have fun with it today or tonight! I have ideas, but will hold up for now.

Looking over the posts, it seems like we've already covered this part. The German woman represents the wife, while Winifred is the temptress. The scene at the car is reminiscent of Coutt's decision not to meet up with his wife. We've been over what the statue and the music symbolize. I don't have much else to add. I am caught up now, so I'm ready to move on whenever anyone is.

[Virgil]

My oldest brother is complaining of gaining weight! LOL

I'll be back to read your commentary later, Janine. We are barbecuing. LOL

I'm sorry for calling him a cook. Chef, of course. Have you watched the Food Network on TV? I've watched over the years and the other day I noticed while I'm at the gym (they have TVs with the treadmills and other machines and I usually put on the Food Channel) that several of the chefs have gained weight over the years. I guess they must eat way too much.

[Janine]

I can respost my coments regaurding the statues as I think we have already addressed my previous coments.

Ok, Dark Muse, that would be great if you could just re-post the parts about the statues. Thanks so much; I just got back from dinner and I ate too much, Virgil, Antiquarian...haha..and now I feel really sleepy...and fat!;) :lol:

Quark, if I see anything I want to further comment on in the text above I will do so and then post more of the text - ok?

[Virgil]

It seems this old man has seen his day and now is retired to his little room of memories.


The word “gallantry” stands out since this is very much like a dreamworld for Coutts. For this man his gallant days are done, but he may have had a life of great freedom and adventure at one time. At anyrate the man and daughter both do their best to make Coutts feel at home and comfortable, from the moment he steps into their house.


So really to the old man “Coutts might have been any other young man”. His babbling and chattering might just be his way now in his old age.

I wonder what the function of this old man is in the story. It's rather odd. The character serves no structural purpose, so it must be thematic. I want to think that the old man serves as a double to Coutts, a character that reflects something of another character. But I can't see what this arthritic old man reflects in Coutts. His only purpose seems to be that he mentions free will.

[Virgil]

Yes, since Antiquarian was questioning the significance of trams and trains and Coutts comes on a train to begin with I thought of travel when I read the passage about the old man's room.
I think the traveling about suggests a certain freedom for Coutts. The star early in the story serves as a guide post. He seems headed for his future. Is he choosing his path? Sometimes he does, sometimes it seems fated for him (the not being able to get on the train). Is it destiny or free will? Again it seems both.


Maybe he's what Coutts would become if he married Constance? That doesn't seem likely, but it's all I can think of right now. Coutts' future life would be sitting around a dinner table talking with others about this and that. We know Coutts wants more. He seems very passionate about life and very demanding of it.

Yes that was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit well. My other thought was that this may be Coutts if he remains under Wini's spell. Laura seems to have the old man under a spell. I think that fits better.

[Virgil]

I don't know. I thought Laura was his daughter.

Oh you're right. I went back and ooked and she calls him "pater." But he does seem to be under her spell.

[Janine]

Lawrence uses those fertility symbols very frequently. He may have been young here so he may not have read Frazier's The Golden Bough yet, but he did at some point in life and used symbols from there many times.

Antiquarian, I think I read that Lawrence did read that book; I will check references and see if that is true. That is interesting.

I just read all your posts or most of them; what happened when I was writing my long response to the text? So many more posts again. I don't know if I can answer them all. Anyway, you asked for my comments on the post text up until the train, so here it is.


He suffered too. After hesitating for a second in the doorway, she came forward, shook hands without speaking, only looking at him with rather frightened blue eyes.

This part stood out to me making it clear they both suffered at this initial meeting. Winifred look at him with frightened blue eyes.


She was of medium height, sturdy in build. Her face was white and impassive, without the least trace of a smile.

I wasn’t sure what to make of that expression; was it due to the shock of seeing Coutts or was this her normal demeanor? She sounds like she might be somewhat on the ‘cool’ side, passive and reserved.


She was a blonde of twenty-eight, dressed in a white gown just short enough not to touch the ground. Her throat was solid and strong, her arms heavy and white and beautiful, her blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.

As the paragraph goes on we get a good mental picuture of her - blonde, 28, lovely white gown, beautiful arms though heavy and white, solid and strong throat…..most notably to me was this last phrase “with blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.”



When she had turned away from Coutts, she flushed vividly. He could see the pink in her arms and throat, and he flushed in answer.

"That blush would hurt her," he said to himself, wincing.

Did this ‘blush’ also hurt him, at the same tim,e since he is’ wincing’; or does he feel guilt in that wince, for coming here tonight and seeing her again?


"I did not expect to see you," she said, with a reedy timbre of voice, as if her throat were half-closed. It made his nerves tingle.
"No--nor I you. At least . . ." He ended indefinitely.

It seemed that this “reedy timbre of voice” makes his nerves tingle. I think later it mentions the voice when they are walking in the night and I believe it says they put his nerve on edge. Here is the later statement: “Her note had that intense reedy quality which set the man on edge;……..” When we get to that part it has more to the statement that may explain why this is so to Coutts.


"You have come down from Yorkshire?" she asked. Apparently she was cold and self-possessed. Yorkshire meant the Rectory where his fiancée lived; he felt the sting of sarcasm.
"No," he answered. "I am on my way there."
There was a moment's pause. Unable to resolve the situation,
she turned abruptly to her hostess.

So Winifred assumed automatically that he is on his way from the Rectory in Yorkshire and had gone there first and then came her to visit after. Also, note the one clue now that indeed Coutts fiancée lives in a Rectory and therefore must be a very protected young woman. It seems in mentioning this there is a “sting of sarcasm” – it that due to her disapproval of his engagement to a girl of this distinction and moral background? It seems, too, that now clearcut communication takes place to resolve this uncomforatable situation, so Wini turns to ask if they should play now.


"Shall we play, then?"
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.

Someone already pointed out the new, lustrous fascination he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now seemed totally unchanged to him but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake or ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast to this mysterious mirror are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images – call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star he first saw.

Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable at times...she tosses Coutts about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that.




The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

A lot of sensual and sexual tension. I think that Dark Muse said as much in or in a similar way. A lot of ‘suspense’ in this part of the evening. Also, like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?); also him stiffening, although I feel that is more sexual tension than literal.


..Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticize, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly.

I did not quite understand about the “unable to criticize” phrase…does this mean he normally would have or that he found nothing to criticize?


He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.

She plays sensually and with a lot of sexual power and suspense. How could any man resist at this point? At least being fascinated with her and her power? He obviously notice her figure with the fact observed that she wore no corset; also those days that would indicate a more modern type woman and maybe less sexually restrained. The last statement now indicates that he is consciously connecting her with the Venus figure on the mantelpiece. Also, interesting to note, maybe that the chimney/fire is connected to Winifred as well, even this early in the story. Also the ending line of that paragraph about Winifred - "an isolated woman" - interesting and may go along with what Antiquarian just said about Winifred and marriage.


…."We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.
"Yes, I am glad," he answered.

So after the German woman suggests this and this would be safer with 3 people and not Coutts being left all alone with Winifred he says he is glad. He seems to be sincere at this point about that statement. The woman seems to like Coutts and looks at him with admiration. She is however described as “forty, naïve and innocent.”



…… Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:
"Come along, please, if you're going."
"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."
"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.
The conductor rang the bell.
"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"
"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.
"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.
"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.

So suddenly, Winifred changes her mind and balks at going along on the train as a threesome. Wasn’t this planned out back at the house and she seemed in agreement on the plan? I can see why Coutts would be very annoyed at Winifred and her stubbornness, and feel “wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.”
One thing confuses me here and this is the prominity to Winifred’s house to West Croyden and to this location where they are leaving the train. Wouldn’t Coutts accompany her from either locales? Why is it so key that this is the longer walk? Is it also more remote and isolated, giving her more time to lure him, cast the spell of desire upon him?

And Virgil, woman can be so bewitching....;) :lol:


Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? :lol: just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...


Oh you're right. I went back and ooked and she calls him "pater." But he does seem to be under her spell.

The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....:lol:

[Quark]

Yes that was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit well. My other thought was that this may be Coutts if he remains under Wini's spell. Laura seems to have the old man under a spell. I think that fits better.

I don't know if Laura has him under a spell, but I think the comparison between a potential Coutts and the old man does hold up. The old gentlemen is stiff with his politeness and gallantry, and Coutts considers himself similar to this when he's with Connie.


This part stood out to me making it clear they both suffered at this initial meeting. Winifred look at him with frightened blue eyes.

I wasn’t sure what to make of that expression; was it due to the shock of seeing Coutts or was this her normal demeanor? She sounds like she might be somewhat on the ‘cool’ side, passive and reserved.

As the paragraph goes on we get a good mental picuture of her - blonde, 28, lovely white gown, beautiful arms though heavy and white, solid and strong throat…..most notably to me was this last phrase “with blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.”

Did this ‘blush’ also hurt him, at the same tim,e since he is’ wincing’; or does he feel guilt in that wince, for coming here tonight and seeing her again?

The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.


It seemed that this “reedy timbre of voice” makes his nerves tingle. I think later it mentions the voice when they are walking in the night and I believe it says they put his nerve on edge. Here is the later statement: “Her note had that intense reedy quality which set the man on edge;……..” When we get to that part it has more to the statement that may explain why this is so to Coutts.

The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.


So Winifred assumed automatically that he is on his way from the Rectory in Yorkshire and had gone there first and then came her to visit after. Also, note the one clue now that indeed Coutts fiancée lives in a Rectory and therefore must be a very protected young woman. It seems in mentioning this there is a “sting of sarcasm” – it that due to her disapproval of his engagement to a girl of this distinction and moral background?

Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.

[Janine]

I don't know if Laura has him under a spell, but I think the comparison between a potential Coutts and the old man does hold up. The old gentlemen is stiff with his politeness and gallantry, and Coutts considers himself similar to this when he's with Connie.

I agree with this, Quark. I do see how that relates and especially with the key clue - the word 'gallantry' because later in the story the idea of the Lady of Shallot is suggested and I think he appears as a sort of Lancelot, gallant and bold.


The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.

That is a good observation, Quark. Yes, Winifred is comprised of all kinds of opposites and she gives to Coutts many confusing/conflicting signals, don't you think? I feel she is conflicted, just as Coutts is in a different way; or is it that Coutts is seeing her this way in his eyes. At anyrate I don't see that anything between them is ever clearcut or direct. All is spoken in glance and looks and symbolic language. We will see that in the next section of text, when I post it.



The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.

It seems to grate on him, don't you think? It is curious. At one moment I thought her 'raspiness' a sort of turn-on and then I wondered at that.



Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.

Yes, that is a very good way of putting it. Coutts life would be 'cloistered' as well.

ANOUNCEMENT

I can't post the next section of text, until later tomorrow night or Saturday....Can everyone hold up and wait until then. Post any comments up until this part of the story, but try not to get into discussing the walk to Winifred's house. I am sorry I have to delay for a day. I have very important things to do tomorrow and will be out all day and into the evening. See you all when I get here!

[Dark Muse]

I have not read over everyone's post yet. But here was my coments regaurding the statue.

This is one of my favorite passages in the story, and it is ripe with sensuality, as well as sexuality, I think it really does set up the events in the story that are to come.

I found the line:


He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination.

Though he knows the setting and the people and has been here before, there is something different about this visit, perhaps, it is suggesting that after his separation from Winni, now that he has been united with her, he is becoming re-enchanted by her.


Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen.

This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"

One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.

The presence of the mirrors seems almost in direct contrast with the passion invoked by the statues, as such feelings of desire and temptation occur without thought or refection upon ones action, but they are heat of the moment.



She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins

This was a great line.

[Janine]

Winifred certainly seems to be an embodiment of the Venus statue. Perhaps she mirrors the statue.

Antiquarian, Oh, I think she does. The statue does represent her, and as I wrote earlier:


... like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?)...

Dark Muse quote

One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.

Dark Muse, I think that is very true and when we get to the part when Coutts becomes angry with Winifred he brings up the idea of the image of a mirror, that she likes to hold up and see him in...something like that. He later says "I am a blessed Lady-of-Shalot looking-glass for you". A looking glass is a mirror, right? So I would take that to mean she does not see the real person, but the image of what she wants him to be - a mere reflection of himself, not his true being.

You said this before in reference to this line:

"Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen."
DM's comment:
"This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"

With this, I feel you are pushing the symbolism a little too far. I think Coutts is talking with Laura and she is trying to pry personal information from him about his engagement and also about why he and Winifred broke things off. He is not in a state of arousal; if anything it is aggitation. She is putting him into an uncomfortable position and the stiffening is a sign of being a little defensive and secretive. Why would he be aroused by Laura? He doesn't have any sexual interest in Laura.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, I think that is very true and when we get to the part when Coutts becomes angry with Winifred he brings up the idea of the image of a mirror, that she likes to hold up and see him in...something like that. He later says "I am a blessed Lady-of-Shalot looking-glass for you". A looking glass is a mirror, right? So I would take that to mean she does not see the real person, but the image of what she wants him to be - a mere reflection of himself, not his true being.

First they discuss Winifred's "crystal ball" but than later I think he does say looking glass


With this, I feel you are pushing the symbolism a little too far. I think Coutts is talking with Laura and she is trying to pry personal information from him about his engagement and also about why he and Winifred broke things off. He is not in a state of arousal; if anything it is aggitation. She is putting him into an uncomfortable position and the stiffening is a sign of being a little defensive and secretive. Why would he be aroused by Laura? He doesn't have any sexual interest in Laura.

Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:


They adjourned into the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in a dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shinning white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet height. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

[Janine]

First they discuss Winifred's "crystal ball" but than later I think he does say looking glass

Yes, I know that; but I was holding back from advancing to that part this early. That was when he was at Winifred's house; so that would be the final division in the story. Here is the entire quote, but taken out of context of what preceeds this remark and what follows, so we can examine that closer when we get to it. Here is the quote and Coutts is saying it:


"Exactly," he said in a biting tone. "Exactly! That's what you want me for. I am to be your crystal, your 'genius'. My length of blood and bone you don't care a rap for. Ah, yes, you like me for a crystal-glass, to see things in: to hold up to the light. I'm a blessed Lady-of-Shalott looking-glass for you."

I can briefly comment on this that Lawrence was considered a young 'genius' and he really did not like people labeling him such; so Coutts based on Lawrence would be saying this in a way to Winifred and that this was not all his worth as a man. Remember at this junction, he was still struggling as an artist/author. When he says "my length of blood and bone" he is definitely referring to the physical side of himself and the deeper blood conscious relationship he can not establish here with Winifred and they both know it. The crystal-glass may refer in this case to the magic she feels he weaves about her or the allure and they both have plenty of allure for each other. I can't quite recall the story of the 'Lady-of-Shallot', but isn't that magical and to do with Lancelot? I am going now to look that up on Wikipedia. Believe it or not, I have the poem - it is by Sir Walter Scott I believe and it is long but I never did get around to reading it.



Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:

Oh sorry, I was thinking of a different part of the story. I mixed that up with the part when he was talking to Laura. I am not sure why or how I did that, but I did just go and check out the text and I don't see it in the conversation and now with the whole quote, I see what you are saying.
I think this is also a tension along with the actual erotic feeling or reaction. I think by feeling aroused by the statue, the image off Winifred in the dark mirror, he is also feeling torn and disturbed with that ever-present feeling of guilt and the fact that the potential is there for him to do wrong.


I am editing this with additional information on "Lady of Shallot", which I found in Wikipedia. If you find that entry in Wiki you can also read more about the poem and the original legend. I correct myself, the poem is by Tennyson. Here is an important exerpt from the article:


"In a more general sense, it is fair to say that the pre-Raphaelite fascination with Arthuriana is traceable to Tennyson's work" (Zanzucchi). Tennyson's biographer Leonée Ormonde finds the Arthurian material is "introduced as a valid setting for the study of the artist and the dangers of personal isolation".

Some consider "The Lady of Shalott" to be representative of the dilemma that faces artists, writers, and musicians: to create work about and celebrating the world, or to enjoy the world by simply living in it. Others see the poem as concerned with issues of women's sexuality and their place in the Victorian world. The fact that the poem works through such complex and polyvalent symbolism indicates an important difference between Tennyson's work and his Arthurian source material. While Tennyson's sources tended to work through allegory, Tennyson himself did not.

The article reveals much more than this states - it is also about the woman's isolation.

Hi Everyone! It is me, your tired leader. I have to go out today and might not be back until late - depends. You might want to discuss up to this part, while I am gone today and when I come back I can also comment and post more text or post more text tomorrow.


NEXT PART OF TEXT:


At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.
"It is a year last Monday since we came over here," said Winifred, as they stopped to look about them.
"I remember--but I didn't know it was then," he said. There was a touch of hardness in his voice. "I don't remember our dates."
After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones:
"It is a beautiful night."
"The moon has set, and the evening star," he answered; "both were out as I came down."
She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism. He was looking across the valley with a set face. Very slightly, by an inch or two, she nestled towards him.
"Yes," she said, half-stubborn, half-pleading. "But the night is a very fine one, for all that."
"Yes," he replied, unwillingly.
Thus, after months of separation, they dove-tailed into the same love and hate.


If anyone wants to requote this and underline key words/phrases, go ahead. I will be in later to read all of your brilliant insights. Have fun, or take a break, too!

[Virgil]

I haven't read through today's posts, but as to the statue, you know there are two statues. Wini and Connie??? Look at how they're described. I think there's a distinction between the two.

[Virgil]

And Virgil, woman can be so bewitching....;) :lol:

That's an understatement. ;)


Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? :lol: just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...
Actually that's an even bigger understatement. :lol:


The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....:lol:
Yes, I ooked. :p

[Virgil]

Good observation, Virgil. :) It'll be interesting going back to see how both are described. This story is so much more complex that I first gave it credit for being, and I'm glad.

Janine commented on how that passage was sensual. Here it is again:


They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.
The nude statue of Venus is clearly associated with the corsetless Winifred. Lawrence never mentions what the other statue is like. Is it an exact replica? He calls one "the Venus" which implies the other is not. But clearly there are two statues, like there are two women in his subconscious. But it's almost as if the other statue goes out of Coutt's consciousness. Just like Connie, perhaps?

[Dark Muse]

Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.

Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

[Virgil]

Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

Yes, good points. :)

[Quark]

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

I hadn't thought about that DM. Good point. I wonder what everyone thinks about the mirror. What's with the whole grey, mysterious thing on the wall? Janine put forward an idea that makes some sense, but I'm still not convinced.

[Virgil]

Mirror seems to be associated with the moon and the night and water. All symbols of the female.

[Janine]

Interesting ideas from all of you on this page. I will just add this but I am too tired now to post anymore. Some of this is from an earlier post concerning the mirror and the statues....sorry if I can repeating..


Someone already pointed out the new, 'lustrous fascination' he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now, seemed totally unchanged to him, but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake at night or the ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ legend and poem, which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast, to this mysterious mirror, are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. She will be against the darker mystery of the heavens or night skies, which also mimic the mantel, statues and mirror. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images; call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star and the new moon he first saw.

Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable most of the time when with Coutts....she tosses him about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that. Usually on a mantel one can have matching pairs of statues but it may be these are different. Does the text indicate that they are? Many times one is a woman and one a man in that case. The duality of Connie and Winifred is an interesting idea; but I think it also could inticate a certain duality within Winifred's very character.

[Dark Muse]

The discussion about the statues has given me a slightly different persepctive upon the story, than what has been discussed thus far though I do not know if anyone else would see it in this light, it had occured to me. But part of it involves one of the passages that come up later in the story, so I might just wait untill we get to that point.

[Janine]

I never thought about that, Janine, but I would think the statues would indicate more of a duality in Winifred than anything else.

It seems, though, that only one is a Venus:

Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.

Well, it they were full body statues most likely one would be a female (godess) and the other a male (god)..they would be a set of mythological deities. Usually you don't have a set of two female deities together and they seem to be a set. I used to deal in antiques and I know this is generally the rule. The description only concentrates or focus on the Venus, which would be appropriate considering she is the goddess of love. Perhaps the other was Mars - the male god in the love duo. Venus embodies the feminine (receptive) and Mars the masculine (dominent, aggressive).
I tend to believe the two probably were this pair of statues. In "Jude the Obscure" I recall distinctively, that Sue purchased two statues, such as these -one male and one female. I wonder if Lawrence got the idea from reading Hardy's novel.
I see the duality within Winifred herself. She is variable like the moon....she is the new moon clearly visible and then she is illusive, just as the moon has gone from sight and now is illusive, invisible to the viewer.


The discussion about the statues has given me a slightly different persepctive upon the story, than what has been discussed thus far though I do not know if anyone else would see it in this light, it had occured to me. But part of it involves one of the passages that come up later in the story, so I might just wait untill we get to that point.

Oh good, post that when it comes up later. I will be interested to hear your theory.

[Janine]

In Jude the Obscure, Sue purchases statues of Venus and Apollo. Apollo, of course, was the sun (opposite of moon?) god and the god of poetry and music. And they are having a musical concert.

Antiquarian, wow, that is really interesting - thanks for looking that up and posting it. You are right, in astrology Apollo rules the Sun. Now that seems to have some relevance here, don't you think it? I just looked Apollo up in my dictionary and it says: "The Greek and Roman god of music, poetry, prophecey, and medicine". The first 3 would fit the story and characters. Often L was later seen to be prophetic in his writing, interesting.
When I said Mars, I was thinking in terms of astrology, again. Actually, in astrology/astronomy, the sun is not opposite the moon. The sun is in the center (most significant force) with the planets radiating/rotating outward in their orbits from the sun in this order - the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. The moon would not be opposite the sun in astronomy. The moon reflects the sun's rays and gets it's illumination from the sun. Therefore, this might relate to the whole mirror idea and the reflection of Winifred in that mirror and being seen illuminated as the moon would be from the sun; not the sun, but an illusion of the sun. The moon for Lawrence embodied the negative/cold of the feminine and the sun the healing/warmth of the feminine image. Not sure I expressed that completely right. In this sense, they could be seen as opposites to Lawrence's mind.

This probably will be my last post tonight; actually, I am not feeling too well tonight, so I was trying to take it easy. Glad I checked in though. Hope you are better, A.....and I hope I am better tomorrow.

[Quark]

In Jude the Obscure, Sue purchases statues of Venus and Apollo. Apollo, of course, was the sun (opposite of moon?) god and the god of poetry and music. And they are having a musical concert.

Are they usually grouped together? I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to just know what the other one was, or whether the omission was somehow significant. Virgil already brought this up, but I think the desription of just the one statue is supposed to show how distracted Coutts is with Winifred that he just forgets about the statue that represents his wife. It makes sense since this part is placed right next to the part with violins which also represent seduction.

[Virgil]

In Hardy's Jude, the reason he picks one statue of Apollo and one for Venus is that Venus represents fleshy passion while Apollo typically represents an intellectual rationality. Lawrence could be playing with that too, not it's undeveloped in Lawrence's short story.

[Janine]

That's an understatement. ;)

Actually that's an even bigger understatement. :lol:

Yes, I ooked. :p

Virgil, you really made me laugh, too! :lol: you always do!!!;)
I just 'ooked' somethings up, and also took everyone's recent posts and put them into this one to answer:

Quotes by Antiquarian

Good observation, Virgil. It'll be interesting going back to see how both are described. This story is so much more complex that I first gave it credit for being, and I'm glad.

Yes, the story is complex; all of Lawrence’s stories have proved to be so far, at least the ones we have discussed. Actually, Antiquarian, when I first read over this story, looking for possible stories to pick for discussion, this one did not impress me as much as it does now. Of course, by now I have read it at least 3 or 4 times and parts of it, as I went along in much closer scrutiny. It does help to look at parts of the story separate from the whole and see what might be lurking there, just beneath the surface. It is interesting, isn’t it? We have all learned so much from these discussions and this thread. We would all get A’s on a final exam! :lol: I am so glad you have been enjoying it. I knew you would.


Thank you, Janine. I hope we're both feeling terrific the whole weekend!

Thanks, Antiquarian, I slept well and went to bed a tad earlier than I have been; I even turned the computer off earlier. I think this is what I need to do every night, actually. However, I woke up suddenly at 9 and when I got back into bed my left leg is aching something fierce - probably a flairup of sciatica. It is some better but it is damp out today and miserable here - rainy. Hope it is better there and you have a great weekend!

Quotes by Virgil

The nude statue of Venus is clearly associated with the corsetless Winifred. Lawrence never mentions what the other statue is like. Is it an exact replica? He calls one "the Venus" which implies the other is not. But clearly there are two statues, like there are two women in his subconscious. But it's almost as if the other statue goes out of Coutt's consciousness. Just like Connie, perhaps?

I can now that that is one possibility…two women and the subconscious/conscious idea. It might also be a man and woman statue – he representing the man. I don’t know but I wish Mr. L had given us a bit more information on that.

Quote by Antiquarian

I would say that's a very good assumption, Virgil. That Connie leaves Coutts' consciousness when Winifred begins to enchant him. I hadn't remembered that the second statue was not described. Thanks for reposting that.

Oh, I did go back to read that passage. It just mentions them and that one is “leaned slightly forward”…I wonder if by not mentioning the one descriptively Lawrence is just directing our attention to one of the statues – the one that stands out. Maybe the other means nothing actually. If he had wanted it to mean anything wouldn’t he have told us what who that one represented or if it were the same, unless in his eyes pair means totally matching or a duplicate of each other. I don’t know if we can be totally certain of the full meaning but it is fun to derive ones own personal take on it.

Quote by Dark Muse:

“Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.”
Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

Dark Muse, This is an interesting ‘take’ on the idea also; and the pedestal is mentioned specifically so this could suggest the idea you propose. Also, Coutts might view Winifred as cold like alabaster; we certainly know she was described as white and linked with the cold moon image of whiteness and of mystery.

DM, I think I know the exact passage you will be referring to later. Is it the one about Connie? I was reviewing that part of the story the other night and realized it does reveal more about Connie and their relationship, than I had previously observed. That one paragraph nicely sums up the way things are between them, which reveals the problem with their relationship, I believe. I won't mention it until you do when we get to that part, if that is what you are referring to.
Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie.

Quote by Virgil

Mirror seems to be associated with the moon and the night and water. All symbols of the female.

Quark, What Virgil posted seems to make sense. I think too, it relates to images reflected, and the crystal ball idea, that Coutts brings up later on, when he is at Winifred’s house. To Coutts as well, Winifred never makes herself quite 'real' to him in the flesh and blood sense, so she is a mere reflection of what he would like her to be towards him, in a sense. Also, the mirror could be a mirror to reflect Coutt's 'conscience' that Coutts is constantly holding within his mind, knowing he is self-examining and seeing his own temptation and wrong-doing, as he goes along. Very near the end of the story, Coutts blurts out, (in his mind) “to the other woman he was false”….this would be the mirror reflecting back the image of himself, the man he knows to be guilty of deception, in the his final observation (of himself).

Oops, I see more posts....*sigh*...*sigh* and I thought I was caught up. You must all be online now. I have some definitions/background here in a book, for Venus and for Apollo, so if you let me copy them from my astrology/mythology book I will type them now. Be patient and I will be back shortly with that info in detail.

[Dark Muse]

DM, I think I know the exact passage you will be referring to later. Is it the one about Connie? I was reviewing that part of the story the other night and realized it does reveal more about Connie and their relationship, than I had previously observed. That one paragraph nicely sums up the way things are between them, which reveals the problem with their relationship, I believe. I won't mention it until you do when we get to that part, if that is what you are referring to.

Yes, it is about Connie, acutally I have a couple different ideas about that passage, in someways I found it the most interesting in the story.


Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie.

Though I know previously I did say that in someways Coutt's could be seen as putting Winni on a pedastol, what you have stated above, sort of fits more into my "new" interpitation of the story.


Lawrence keep linking Winifred to the statue. He keeps mentioning how white Winifred is and how rounded. It got so she sounded a little pudgy to me. LOL

Espcially the way he talked about her arms, of which he seems to have a fetish for.

[Janine]

Here is the mythology:

The Sun
Apollo, son of Zeus and second only to him in power, became associcated in the 5th century BC with the strength, light and purity of the Sun; the snake which he slew represents the cold darkness of winter, dispersed by his blazing beauty, He governed the seasons, was the god of agriculture, guardian herds and flocks. Perfectly beautiful, he was supposed to be the first victor in the Oylmpic Games, symbolized Man, most perfect of animals, in his highest form.

Venus
Venus, a Roman and Latin goddess, was originally goddess of beauty and growth in nature; but later she became associated With Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love, worshipped (often wih the most repulsive rites) as far west as Italy and Sicily. She ruled sexuality, fruitfulness, and eventually family life - though in her early days she showed small concern for the conventions! The famaily of Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from her.

Wow, that is kind of interesting! Relates also to other stories we have read such as 'Sun'.

Edit: As, I was posting this (above) you two posted a bunch more.:lol: I will get to that in a minute. I can't seem to catch up but you both bring up things I agree with.


It's rainy and chilly here today, Janine, but tomorrow is supposed to be warmer and dry. Sorry to hear your leg is bothering you. I slept better, too. I'm no good unless I get my sleep. Sometimes I'm no good even with the sleep.

Lawrence keep linking Winifred to the statue. He keeps mentioning how white Winifred is and how rounded. It got so she sounded a little pudgy to me. LOL

Actually, Antiquarian, Lawrence did like his women a little on the 'pudgy' side; he liked some 'meat on their bones', so to speak. He even wrote a letter to one woman, telling her never to lose weight; I think this was born out of the fact, that Lawrence was so thin after his first major illness, and apparently he never could gain his weight back. He really did have a thing about 'fleshy' women, loins, and Dark Muse, as you pointed out fleshy arms, as well. Also, he in other writings he seemed to describ Louie as rather tall with strong arms and large hands, or it may have been Jessie Chambers, but amazingly most of the women he knew and seemed attracted to were a little on the 'hefty' side and fleshy (not quite fat). I should post photos, in this thread of Louie Burrows (she was quite beautiful, I think) and Helen (more plain and looks to be on the rounder fleshier side). Louie actually, is thin looking and built well, I believe, in the photo in my book.
Anyway, about the arms, etc, DM, I think you will find that Lawrence had quite a few 'fetishes' such as these. He was a 'quirky' sort of guy.

Antiquarian, thanks - hope it gets warmer here too and sunny would be nice. It was rainy yesterday but warm actually. You are not the only one needs her sleep. When I am forced to get up early, if I did not get to bed till late, I am a disaster! I sleep badly too, most nights...so I can sympathise with that.


Yes, it is about Connie, acutally I have a couple different ideas about that passage, in someways I found it the most interesting in the story.


"Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie."


Though I know previously I did say that in someways Coutt's could be seen as putting Winni on a pedastol, what you have stated above, sort of fits more into my "new" interpitation of the story.

Dark Muse, I probably went back and researched the same parts looking for clues to Connie; I got curious and thought, 'there has to be more text describing Connie or the relationship.' How funny, we probably thought the same way, DM. Now I feel I do a have a very firm grasp of the meaning of the entire story. It really helps to go along like this slowly and see what is meant by everything written. First impressions sometimes alter so much on second and third reading or discussions like this one.

[Dark Muse]

In Sons and Lovers, wasn't Paul sort of fascinated by Clara's arms as well? I think I recall him often looking at her arms and talking about them

[Janine]

In Sons and Lovers, wasn't Paul sort of fascinated by Clara's arms as well? I think I recall him often looking at her arms and talking about them

Yes, good memory, DM...I recall that, as well; actually I read that Clara's character is partically (she was a composite and basically fictional) based on several women in Lawrence's life - one might even be Helen Corke, but the others I believe also were quite fleshy in the arms and body generally. Didn't he also say Clara was big or had strong limbs? I picture her that way, but then again I have also seen the new movie version (miniseries); she was not fat, but not quite skinny either, and she was a little bigger in bone structure.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, good memory, DM...I recall that, as well; actually I read that Clara's character is partically (she was a composite and basically fictional) based on several women in Lawrence's life - one might even be Helen Corke, but the others I believe also were quite fleshy in the arms and body generally. Didn't he also say Clara was big or had strong limbs? I picture her that way, but then again I have also seen the new movie version (miniseries); she was not fat, but not quite skinny either, and she was a little bigger in bone structure.

I think I do recall him saying something about her having strong limbs.

[Janine]

I found some photos online. Louie looks to have been the prettiest. I was not taken with Jessie's looks at all nor with Frieda's. In fact, in a 1926 photo, Frieda seems quite dowdy, while Lawrence seems almost gaunt. Lawrence, himself, at age 21 is strikingly handsome.

I found this interesting: It was essential to Lawrence that any woman he loved could respond to his writing and become...a collaborator.

Antiquarian,
Yes, that is all very true. I have seen various photos of Jessie, so don't go by just one; not that she was a beauty but she did have dark eyes that were on the pretty side. I think in those days photos were a little inaccurate, or people looked so stiff in them. The photo of Jessie may have been taken after Lawrence even knew her. In early photos of Freida, she did look pretty, but later on she got quite hefty and lost any looks she might have had; she also, began looking worn and hard...I think living with Lawrence took it's toll on her....not easy living with a tempermental author. Yes, Lawrence got very gaunt and he looked to be very thin, boney. I have seem a zillion photos of him by now, and have many in my various books. He was quite altered in his midlife and was so very different looking from his earlier photos. He looked to be blond early on (think actually, he was a strawberry blond or redhead) and quite good-looking, handsome and he did have a confident, but sensitive look; I think, in the eyes one can percieve a certain vulnerability/fragility and also the spark of genius. His early baby pictures depict him as just adorable and his early boyhood the same. I think later, after his first illness, he really went downhill in appearance, with the continuing series of attacks of his chronic illness, eventually diagnosed as the then deadly TB. His longish beard he attributed to two reasons - he said it kept his neck warm (I said he was quirpy) and kept him from getting ill; also they said he got scraggly (hair and beard) because often he did not trust barbers to cut them. I guess Freida did it for him and she probably did not do a very professional job. Also, his hair color seemed to darken as he got older, as is usually the case.
Seemed of all the woman, Louie was the prettiest and I think he has association with another woman named Baynes. I will look her up, too - they say she was the model for Connie in "Lady Chatterly's Lover".
I will have to find more photos for you. I had posted some in various Lawrence threads on this site. I will look those up - there are whole pages of them somewhere.


I think I do recall him saying something about her having strong limbs.

He usually does point that out about certain women. He seemed to admire physical strength in a woman...interesting.

Antiquarian,Indeed, women did often help Lawrence with his work, either editing or proof-reading, typing manuscripts and even advising. Jessie was the first to do so, then others followed. She even entered a contest for him, which he won when very young. She had the pseuydenom (sp?) of E.T., I believe. I will look that up, to be certain. His wife, Freida, also helped Lawrence a great deal.

Virgil, This is rather funny; I went to look in the old "Sons and Lovers" discussion thread seeking photos for you, Antiquarian, and whatever else turned up. It turned out to be plenty of interesting information, but only a couple of photos of Jesse and Louie, you can find it in the thread post #44. I found so many interesting things, I had to start keeping a file. I was in there at least an hour or two reading our old posts, Virgil. Wow, we had a really good discussion in that thread! I even started to gather up ideas, that could apply to this story and others we read. I have the file offline, of some highlights and other interesting information, and will post some of the things I think are appropriate, after I I go over that material. For now I don't have the time and must take off the evening. I have to call about my accident (insur. co) and also I thought I would attempt to clean-up a little, my two upstairs rooms; maybe vacumn and then watch a movie to relax. I may be on much later, but I don't know. I am trying to shut my computer down a little earlier, so I can get better sleep. I have been up too late lately, which is not good.

[Janine]

Before we got side-tracked with talk of statuary, and beautiful women, I posted this section of text but now I am adding some commentary:

NEXT PART OF TEXT:

Quote:

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.

I just love this whole paragraph and the way the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm - one of darkness, shadows, lights, stars and mysteries. I love the way the gnats are described and it seems they correspond to all the ideas of the bits of light in the darkness, even the stars in the heavens. This magic world of night seems to be ruled over by 'Orion' who is "heeled over in the West". What fine exquisite writing and so poetic. Yet it ends with the words angry sound. The trains seem to invade this peace of nature and the valley.


"It is a year last Monday since we came over here," said Winifred, as they stopped to look about them.

Clearly makes not that it has been over one year since they were last there; and also the fact that Winifred has kept that in her mind and her memory; she has noted it.


"I remember--but I didn't know it was then," he said. There was a touch of hardness in his voice. "I don't remember our dates."

After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones:
"It is a beautiful night."

Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates. I think this would be fair to say and somewhat typical of a man. Women seem to keep mental records about time and dates, better than men do. Also, I think this would indicate, that Coutts was not so aware of all this time passing, as was Winifred. The last lines state that she spook in "low passionate tones", suggesting she is enticing Coutts at this point. She attempts to pull him into close intimacy.


"The moon has set, and the evening star," he answered; "both were out as I came down."
She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism. He was looking across the valley with a set face. Very slightly, by an inch or two, she nestled towards him.

I wonder if his reply could indicate he felt things to be favorable when he first alights from the train and now he feels the night is all blackness and unsurity. I may be reading more into that line; but, I still don't know quite what to make out of her saying that she looked for a bit of symbolism in his speech.
The last line brings Coutts closer to her by Winifred's own actions and "she nestled towards him". Coutts is not making the first move here physically. She is and she knows it and the effect.


"Yes," she said, half-stubborn, half-pleading. "But the night is a very fine one, for all that."
"Yes," he replied, unwillingly.

So again are they referring to the night now being no longer illuminated by the moon and the evening star, perhaps darker and lighted by the artificial lumination of the "lamps like gnats" and the "daze of the light from London" and the "garland of arc lamps" replace the more natural light of the heavens?
So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above.


Thus, after months of separation, they dove-tailed into the same love and hate.

This line is so perfectly placed and so well written and crafted...so well put. It makes one read on in anticipation, as well.

[Quark]

Before we got side-tracked with talk of statuary, and beautiful women, I posted this section of text but now I am adding some commentary:

Oh, good. I love this part of the story. The tension between the two of them is quite exciting, and the narration is witty and clever.


the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm

The setting is sensual, and it creates a separate world for them. It reminds me of the places like "The Green World" in A MidSummer Night's Dream where Shakespeare gives the lovers their own location for their affairs. In that play, the forest and the city become representative of public society and private desire. Likewise, in "Witch A La Mode" the dark hill is the place for the seduction, and the luminous city portrays the civilized public.


Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates.

Winifred is trying to arouse old memories of their closeness. Coutts, on the other hand, tries to wound Winifred by saying he's forgotten. Most likely, he does remember, but he is teasing Winifred the way she teased him about his wife. The roles are reversed now.


I wonder if his reply could indicate he felt things to be favorable when he first alights from the train and now he feels the night is all blackness and unsurity. I may be reading more into that line; but, I still don't know quite what to make out of her saying that she looked for a bit of symbolism in his speech.

She looks for symbolism because Coutts is noticing a change. That change (Moon and Venus descending) could represent the waning of Coutts' love for his wife. Or, it could represent his waning love for Winifred. In either case, there could be a reference to his affections buried beneath his observation.


So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above.

That's a good point. The glow of the town is artificial. How do you think this change adds to the story?


This line is so perfectly placed and so well written and crafted...so well put. It makes one read on in anticipation, as well.

Yeah, that's the tension. It keeps you guessing what Coutts is going to do.

[Janine]

Excellent post!!! Quark, wow...I am impressed. I really like all that you said above. I didn't want to requote it, before the others read it, because it all makes so much sense to me. I agree with all you said. You ask me one question about

my statement:
"So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above."

You said in response:
"That's a good point. The glow of the town is artificial. How do you think this change adds to the story?" I don't know if it changes anything about the story except it suggested to me that his new meeting with Winifred is likened to a dream and would therefore be artificial and not quite reality - they both would be acting out a sort of 'dreamworld' (like in Midsummer Night's Dream - good analogy) and therefore, the dark scene and obscurity that night suggests, actually masks them both, from true true reality (of day or sunlight). I think this magic of night is a big part of the spell that Winifred weaves about Coutts, drawing him into a dark world of mystery and seduction.

Yes, Coutts might know the date and may have noted it; you are right. In fact Lawrence would have noted all dates because he wrote these things in detailed letter all the time. So, I think you are right about that - he is using this denial of recalling the date to get back at Winifred and hurt her.

Yes, that last line does set up the whole idea of "tension" between the two. That is a good way to put it, Quark, and it drives the story onward with suspense.

Quark, as Antiquarian and I have been pointing out to you continually - Coutts has NO WIFE!.....you throw everyone off, everytime you say that; It throws off the meaning of the story.....Coutts only has a finance - he is engaged to be married someday.....even that is not established as to when.....I agree Antiquarian...all that you said is true, but many times people do and can break off engagements. I know a few people who recently did so. Nothing is 'carved in stone' until you are married, even then there are things called divorces and people do part ways for the better most times...so nothing is truly 'permanent' in relationships, only trust and true commitment, perhaps.

Did you just edit, Antiquarian? I am sorry, I did not see where you said they don't always become wives or husbands. You are exactly right - it would have been a much different story had Coutts been married.

[Quark]

Quark, Coutts is not married. He has no wife. Just a finacee, which is a commitment, I grant you, but many people who have been fiancees and fiances are never wives or husbands.

Quark, as Antiquarian and I have been pointing out to you continually - Coutts has NO WIFE!

I'm sorry to throw people off, if I am doing that. I think we (including me) all know that she's the fiancee. I'll just refer to her a Connie to make it easy.


I don't know if it changes anything about the story except it suggested to me that his new meeting with Winifred is likened to a dream and would therefore be artificial and not quite reality

That makes sense. There is something illusory about the whole scene.

[Janine]

No, for once I didn't edit, Janine. LOL I do seem to edit a lot.
:lol: - on editing, because I do that, too...all the time. Usually, by the time I finish editing my post, about 4 people have posted theirs. Then I can never catch up.


Had Coutts actually been married, he would have been able to commit himself to a woman. At the present time, I think he finds commitment a little frightening. I do know (because you told us ;)) that Lawrence longed to be married and devoted to only one woman, but I think perhaps Coutts, in his youth, finds marriage a little frightening even though he does long for many of the things marriage can bring.

Exactly! And after you have read "Sons and Lovers" you will understand that so much better. Yes, the 'young' Lawrence longed for stability and marriage and love; don't we all? But getting it is always a different story and Coutts embodies the young Lawrence's confusion about commitment.

[Virgil]

Quote:

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.

I just love this whole paragraph and the way the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm - one of darkness, shadows, lights, stars and mysteries. I love the way the gnats are described and it seems they correspond to all the ideas of the bits of light in the darkness, even the stars in the heavens. This magic world of night seems to be ruled over by 'Orion' who is "heeled over in the West". What fine exquisite writing and so poetic. Yet it ends with the words angry sound. The trains seem to invade this peace of nature and the valley.

Good points. Also the lamps and lights seem to connect with climatic lamp burning.


Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates. I think this would be fair to say and somewhat typical of a man. Women seem to keep mental records about time and dates, better than men do. Also, I think this would indicate, that Coutts was not so aware of all this time passing, as was Winifred. The last lines state that she spook in "low passionate tones", suggesting she is enticing Coutts at this point. She attempts to pull him into close intimacy.
"Spook in low passionate tones"? Is spook like ooked? ;)



Winifred is trying to arouse old memories of their closeness. Coutts, on the other hand, tries to wound Winifred by saying he's forgotten. Most likely, he does remember, but he is teasing Winifred the way she teased him about his wife. The roles are reversed now.

Good point Quark! We see her in this element gaining her power. It's as if the feminine night and moon (Artemis is the goddess of the moon by the way, the sister of Apollo the Sun god) have given Wini power.

[Janine]

Good points. Also the lamps and lights seem to connect with climatic lamp burning.

humm...Virg, what is "climatic lamp burning"? Are you referring to the fog or mist here? Oh, I get it now, you are not talking about the weather..:lol: I see...you mean the lamp that burns at the 'climax of the story'....hummm the word "climatic" refers to both in my dictionary...that is why I thought it...and they mentioned lamps and London fog as they are in this particular part of the story...walking in the darkness. Yes, it does seem these lamp/light images do fortell the future in some distant way.



"Spook in low passionate tones"? Is spook like ooked? ;)Oh yes....:lol:...Exactly like "ooked"...:lol:



Good point Quark! We see her in this element gaining her power. It's as if the feminine night and moon (Artemis is the goddess of the moon by the way, the sister of Apollo the Sun god) have given Wini power.

Agree! Good points here, Virgil and Quark.

[Janine]

I agree with Quark that Winifred is gaining power the more she's with Coutts. He's losing any will to resist her. But when they are walking together, the evening star and the moon are not out. I don't understand the significance of that.

Antiquarian,I agree with that, too. It is a sort of building up, to the final scenes of seduction, don't you think? I would think that Virgil would have better ideas than I do, on the significance of the evening star and moon which is no longer visible. I am not quite clear on that line, when it said, she looked for symbolism in what Coutts was saying; only do I understand it to the extent that they know this language together - one of symbolism and not straight-forwardness/honesty. They play a little 'cat and mouse' game, continually during this walk to her house.

I will try and post another section with comments tomorrow.

[Virgil]

The only thing I can think of in that scene is that the night and the evening stars and the moon all suggest a female power. These are elements of the goddess Artemis, a female virgin goddess of hunt and the moon. She actually slays several men who desired her. I think that fits well with this story. You can read about it her here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis. The more I read this story, the more I'm convinced that lawrence is thinking along classical lines. It could be that Lawrence is suggesting Wini gains strength of the evening. It's sort of unusual to set this that late in the evening I think, so it's very conscious effort on Lawrence's part.

[Virgil]

I was wondering if Winifred's power over Coutts was becoming so great, she was "stealing" power from the moon and the stars. It sounded silly to me at first, but maybe not. Lawrence is so symbolic, but that's one of the things I really like about him.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. Whether Lawrence means it literally or metaphorically is speculative.

[Dark Muse]

I was wondering if Winifred's power over Coutts was becoming so great, she was "stealing" power from the moon and the stars. It sounded silly to me at first, but maybe not. Lawrence is so symbolic, but that's one of the things I really like about him.

I do not know if "stealing" is quite the right word, but considering the Pagan/Witch symbolisim used in the story, it is true that moon phases as well as the stars often play an important role in casting spells, and preforming certian rituals. The moon would be imporant to Winifred as the "witch" trying to enchant Coutts. Different phases of the moon, are calculated as being good for different types of magical activity, as well as the alignement of the stars often play a role in spell casting.

[Dark Muse]

But symbolicaly speaking the idea of the moon and the stars would bear imporatnce to the allusion of Winni as a witch. She is not a litteral witch, but is cast in the role as one. As later they mention her "reading a crystal ball" so the imporance of the moon would tie in with the idea of witchcraft that is being spun through the story.

[Janine]

But symbolicaly speaking the idea of the moon and the stars would bear imporatnce to the allusion of Winni as a witch. She is not a litteral witch, but is cast in the role as one. As later they mention her "reading a crystal ball" so the imporance of the moon would tie in with the idea of witchcraft that is being spun through the story.

That might be true, but why not a full moon then?

Isn't a new moon barely a thin sliver of moon or light? Coutts did refer to it as looking like a knife for a sacrifice. I know specifically that evening and morning star is very magical for Lawrence and for his symbolic thinking. He felt this time between day and night was a very spiritual and mystical time. Now too, the moon and the star has disappeared from their site and the two of them are emerced in darkness basically. Could this mean they are now darkened to reality - thrown into this other-world where anything is possible? I can see Winifred being associated with the goddess idea.

I am working on the next section of text offline; I will probably post that this evening with some comments; then I hope all of you comment and give us idea on this part. It is an interesting section when they discuss this idea of symbolism in their speech to each other.

[Dark Muse]

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

[Janine]

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

Wow, that is really interesting! Is it really representative of 'breaking away' or even 'starting a new relationship'? If so, that would relate to the idea of the moon like a knife - but would it? I think he thought of his being married, that he would be sacrificed. Maybe this image has two meanings. If it is a breaking away and connected with sacrifice then it could mean breaking with Winifred and not with Connie as I was just thinking. I had heard of the New Moon being a sort of witching time of the cycle. I will have to look more up on that idea online...it is interesting.
Dark Muse, from now on, we will have to call you the pagan/witch advisor to this thread! ;) :lol:

[Dark Muse]

LOL ok, yes, the New Moon is often seen as a good time, both for the begining of a new relationship, as well as times of change, and starting something new, breaking from things of the past. The new moon can be seen as a starting over time.

I think the idea of the sacrifice does have more than one possible meaning in the story. Though I have not thought about the idea of his breaking from Winni, with the end scene I can see how that might be.

[Janine]

LOL ok, yes, the New Moon is often seen as a good time, both for the begining of a new relationship, as well as times of change, and starting something new, breaking from things of the past. The new moon can be seen as a starting over time.

I think the idea of the sacrifice does have more than one possible meaning in the story. Though I have not thought about the idea of his breaking from Winni, with the end scene I can see how that might be.

Yes, that end scene may confirm this idea and also breaking from his past. In my commentary book, Michael Black sites the ending as a sort of ritual of fire in a circle, that finally separates Coutts from the 'spell' and his past connection to Winifred. I think this is true. He is 'exorcised' from both, in this 'circle of flame/fire' scene. Later Lawrence would adopt the phoenix as his symbol. The phoenix bird burns down to ash and is reborn from the ashes. You can see where the roots of these L ideas originate, also.

[Quark]

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

The lunar symbolism is difficult to untangle, but I think you're right about its importance in the story. I wonder, though, whether Coutts ever realizes that he should not marry Connie. While he does pursue this encounter with Winifred, does that necessarily mean that he's trying to avoid marriage with Connie?


I am working on the next section of text offline; I will probably post that this evening with some comments

Is the next section going to have more of their dialogue, or are you going to skip into the following scene?

Before we move on, I wanted to write about one last idea. At the beginning of the last section Janine posted Lawrence says:

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them.
The road they use to get to the hill, and the one that Winifred is leading Coutts down, is a "meaningless" strip of pavement. Since we're doing such a close reading of this part, I thought I should point out that this sentence is quite revealing. It describes how pointless this meeting is since the two of them can never be together. The path they are taking is "meaningless" because it can lead to nothing.

[Janine]

Quark, what a terrific insight. It's true, they are on a meaningless path, both physically and emotionally.

Janine, do you know if Lawrence was well versed in witchcraft? I know he made heavy use of symbolism, but I don't know about witchcraft.

When I read the part about the moon being like a knife, I took it to mean a warning to Coutts, that either he or his relationship to Connie would be sacrificed, but it could mean more, of course.

Yes, Quark, excellent insight about the road. I had wondered about the significance of that statement several times and your take on it makes perfect sense. I liked the rest of your post, too. Good thinking. I am about to post the next part of the text - been working on it offline just now.
Yes, Antiquarian, I agree that part about the moon could have much significance that is not easily interpretted - perhaps various meanings or possibilies, depending on how his encounter would end. It may be a variable. I don't honestly know if L knew of witchcraft, but I know he was always interested in myth and pagan ideas; sure, I would assume witchcraft would fit in perfectly with these ideas, as well.
Dark Muse, I agree with your post, too.


Ok, here it is -

NEXT PART OF THE TEXT:


"You are staying down here?" she asked at length, in a forced voice. She never intruded a hair's-breadth on the most trifling privacy; in which she was Laura's antithesis; so that this question was almost an impertinence for her. He felt her shrink.
Here he pretty much says that by her question she is doing something totally against her usual nature; it would be something natural for Laura to do as we saw in the first part of the story; but for Winifred he feels her ‘shrink’ from this invasion into his privacy. Once again he is seeing a difference in Winifred towards him; as later we see the surprise he has about the red flowers on the piano.
Also, she is trying to find out from him, his sleeping arrangements for the night with undermines his own sense of privacy and honesty; she may be prying to see his reaction and determine what his real intentions are.

"Till the morning--then Yorkshire," he said cruelly.
He hated it that she could not bear outspokenness.
So even though he is seeing her now so much altered, he hates this ‘outspokenness’ in Winifred.

At that moment a train across the valley threaded the opposite darkness with its gold thread. The valley re-echoed with vague threat. The two watched the express, like a gold-and-black snake, curve and dive seawards into the night. He turned, saw her full, fine face tilted up to him. It showed pale, distinct, and firm, very near to him. He shut his eyes and shivered.
Interesting paragraph here, entirely. I have a lot of questions about this one paragraph. I find the words and phrases I underlined so curious and fascinating. I am not entirely sure of their meanings. I was wondering what significance the ‘opposite darkness’ has. Why did the valley ‘re-echoe with vague thread?’ I know he feels a threat here, but wondered why exactly the valley is described this way – is it civilization encroaching on nature? I especially love this ‘gold-and-black’ snake image to describe the train and I think that futher indicates a threat in Coutt’s mind; snakes would for Lawrence. I am not sure – is it actually heading seawards? Right after his keen observance of the train, he turns to Winifred to observe her ‘full, fine face;’ he also uses the words ‘pale, distinct, firm’; and yet his eyes now shut and he shivers – why? Is it fear of her and his own reactions towards her? Or does he know then that he is headed in the wrong direction – like the train – the opposite direction?


"I hate trains," he said, impulsively.
"Why?" she asked, with a curious, tender little smile that caressed, as it were, his emotion towards her.
"I don't know; they pitch one about here and there . . ."
I almost see these lines as decribing the way he feels with Winifred – being pitched here and there like the train would pitch one, with uncertainity.

"I thought," she said, with faint irony, "that you preferred change."
Curious that she says this about him ‘preferring change’, because so far, throughout the text, we see little changes presented in this return to Winifred, but they are subtle changes, yet important I think in Coutt’s mind or subconscious.

"I do like life. But now I should like to be nailed to something, if it were only a cross."
She laughed sharply, and said, with keen sarcasm:
"Is it so difficult, then, to let yourself be nailed to a cross? I thought the difficulty lay in getting free."
This whole concept is so interesting to me because later this idea of ‘crosses’ and ‘crucifixion’ is so prominent in Lawrence’ works. Also, this being ‘nailed to something’ is almost reminiscent of another short story we read in which the woman claims she is part of the land. In someway if he married, Connie, he too would be part of the land, nailed to that cross, fixed and not free to go as he is free now. Winifred says the difficulty is getting free – that too, is quite interesting.

He ignored her sarcasm on his engagement.
"There is nothing now that matters," he said, adding quickly, to forestall her: "Of course I'm wild when dinner's late, and so on; but . . . apart from those things . . . nothing seems to matter."
Quark, here is the passage about the sarcasm on his engagement so before the scene leading up to this passage could not have been a response to her sarcasm about his up and coming marriage.
He admits – ‘that nothing seems to matter’ – I would say he is pretty blaze about his engagement – he is half-hearted about the whole matter.

She was silent.
"One goes on—remains in office, so to speak; and life's all right—only, it
It is like he sees marriage as an ‘office’ and, then he concludes that ‘life’s all right’ and ‘it doesn’t seem to matter (to him?)’. Doesn’t seem much like the expendent bride-groom, does he. Like I said he is blah about it all.

"This does sound like [b]complaining of trouble because you've got none," she laughed.
"Trouble . . ." he repeated. "No, I don't suppose I've got any. Vexation, which most folk call trouble; but something I really grieve about in my soul—no, nothing. I wish I had."
Again, indicating that he has no real complaints and yet one can see he not happy – he is just existing.

She laughed again sharply; but he perceived in her laughter a little keen despair.
So her laughter is covering up her true feelings. When he said she laughed 'sharply' I wondered if the laugher was not more like anger/annoyance or being critical of Coutts careless attitude.

[Virgil]

At that moment a train across the valley threaded the opposite darkness with its gold thread. The valley re-echoed with vague threat. The two watched the express, like a gold-and-black snake, curve and dive seawards into the night. He turned, saw her full, fine face tilted up to him. It showed pale, distinct, and firm, very near to him. He shut his eyes and shivered.

Interesting paragraph here, entirely. I have a lot of questions about this one paragraph. I find the words and phrases I underlined so curious and fascinating. I am not entirely sure of their meanings. I was wondering what significance the ‘opposite darkness’ has. Why did the valley ‘re-echoe with vague thread?’ I know he feels a threat here, but wondered why exactly the valley is described this way – is it civilization encroaching on nature? I especially love this ‘gold-and-black’ snake image to describe the train and I think that futher indicates a threat in Coutt’s mind; snakes would for Lawrence. I am not sure – is it actually heading seawards? Right after his keen observance of the train, he turns to Winifred to observe her ‘full, fine face;’ he also uses the words ‘pale, distinct, firm’; and yet his eyes now shut and he shivers – why? Is it fear of her and his own reactions towards her? Or does he know then that he is headed in the wrong direction – like the train – the opposite direction?


That is a fascinating paragragh. I had not noticed that before. What a marvelous image: two opposing sheets of darkness threaded together by the train. Actually not threaded together but being threaded through the train's motion. And her pale face contrasts nicely with the black sky, making it so vivid. I can't help but think this is a sexual allusion. Her pale face waiting for the snake to thread them together. :blush: Sorry about that, but that's what I think Lawrence is suggesting. Actually, unless it's my dirty mind playing with me, :p :lol: there's a lot of sexual suggestiveness in that paragragh. I won't spell it out because then I'll really blush. ;) Perhaps this is where the witch's charm is placed on him. So here's a question. Is the charm that Wini puts on Coutts a sexual spell?

[Dark Muse]

Considering the Pagan symbolism used in the story, snakes in Paganism were a good thing. It was Christianity that made them bad. Snakes in ancient times stood for rebirth, transformation, sometimes eternal life, because of fact that they shed their skin.

[Virgil]

Oh I wasn't thinking good or bad. I was thinking phallic.

[Janine]

That is a fascinating paragragh. I had not noticed that before. What a marvelous image: two opposing sheets of darkness threaded together by the train. Actually not threaded together but being threaded through the train's motion. And her pale face contrasts nicely with the black sky, making it so vivid. I can't help but think this is a sexual allusion. Her pale face waiting for the snake to thread them together. :blush: Sorry about that, but that's what I think Lawrence is suggesting. Actually, unless it's my dirty mind playing with me, :p :lol: there's a lot of sexual suggestiveness in that paragragh. I won't spell it out because then I'll really blush. ;) Perhaps this is where the witch's charm is placed on him. So here's a question. Is the charm that Wini puts on Coutts a sexual spell?

Virgil, Good observation and I don't want to know what is in your mind that you won't spell out. :lol: ...I don't care to see you blush:blush:
I think you might have something here. I keep thinking back to that scene in 'Sun' when the snake appeared out of the rocks and then retreated back. I don't know if there is a relationship here. I must look that passage up in 'Sun'. Do you think by any chance it also was a black and gold snake or a gold colored snake? Anyway, I do think snakes can have many connotations and suggest much. The way they are used in this paragraph is suggestive of a joining of the two sides into a central union of the train/snake image and symbolism. I imagine, if Lawrence has as dirty a mind as you do Virgil, he may intend this to mean what you suggest. I guess he was not known for paving the way to abolishing censorship and supporting freedom of speech for nothing.
I think, as Dark Muse has pointed out snakes are used often in Paganism as a good thing:


Considering the Pagan symbolism used in the story, snakes in Paganism were a good thing. It was Christianity that made them bad. Snakes in ancient times stood for rebirth, transformation, sometimes eternal life, because of fact that they shed their skin.


Dark Muse, That would make sense, wouldn't it? It very well, could represent to Coutts, a 'charm' type symbol or to his subconscious thinking; remember they are talking in a 'code of symbols' and Coutts, himself, is thinking in this way from the start. Why not have this train be a symbol for Coutts, as well? From the beginning of the story, Coutts has viewed things in a symbolic way, such as the 'new moon' and the 'evening star', even the 'church tower', the 'Venus statue' on the mantle. All these, seem to me, to be leading him onward, towards his own temptation. I think we can see where Lawrence is leading us with the symbolism and it all does suggest this possibility of sexual union with Winifred. I would assume up until now, Coutts has been denied by Winifred, of the complete physical union and now he probably thinks, in the back of his mind, this time may be different, now that I have broken away to marry someone else; Winifred may 'give in', in order to try and keep the connection between us. I don't think this is totally conscious on Coutts part from the beginning but as the story progresses with Winifred seducing him onward, along with these seductive symbols it becomes more evident to his conscious mind.

Quote by Antiquarian

I would think the image of a snake would be bad, but I read somewhere that the color gold and trains were "good" symbols to Lawrence. I'm sure Janine could tell us more.

Antiquarian, to your last line, I have to say, I probably don't know much more than you. Only can surmise from my reading and research. You see the more you think you have Lawrence and his symbolism figured out, the more you see he goes and does exactly the reverse, or the symbol takes on new meanings for him; this is hard to explain. I don't know about the early fiction and the symbolism with snakes, only a few things I read in the Michael Black commentaries. Trains come to mind to me, in the novel "Women in Love" when Gerald approaches a fast passing train, makes his young mare stand against her will, even whipping (beating) her on the sides, at the crossing as the train thunders past; in this scene the train represents a kind of (male?) power and even the power of industrialism reigning down on the land. but later Lawrence seem to view snakes in a more positive light and definitely they became good things and noble things. In his later works he writes of snakes often. In the "The Plumed Serpent" and definitely viewed snakes are a deity and empowering of male virility. It is hard to determine exactly what Lawrence is attributing to the two images; snake and train in this passage except to think of it as a symbol of union of male/female. Perhaps he viewed the 'dark' as the mysterious power or masculine and the 'light' as the woman/feminine. The intertwining would be the union that Virgil suggests. Probably later, Lawrence did view trains in a much more favorable light - afterall they took on new meaning for him personally from the ones that transported the coal of his childhood and represented industrialism, coal mining. They later became his chief way of getting to locations he would desire to travel to. Train travel was the chief means at the time; that and ships; prior to airplanes. He had to accept them as good things eventually. Between the younger Lawrence and the older one is a huge breath of space and ways of thinking.

I will run a research on 'snakes' in my Lawrence books. I am sure I can come up with tons of information on them. Lawrence very liberally used snakes in his writings, always. He also wrote a very interesting poem; I think it is just called "Snake". I will look that up and post it here. You will all find it quite interesting.

I don't know how much I can post today. I am having a problem with my right eye; dry eye and an erosion today. I have had them before and one has to lay off the computer screen and use drops and moisture until it heals itself. What a pain it is! Anyway, I posted that part last night, and have some more ready to go once that is discussed. So anyway you all can discuss the section I posted last night, even if I am not here. The passage has enough in it to discuss - more than just the train/snake image - what is said between Coutts and Winifred is quite interesting, I think. Have fun figuring it all out! I will check in later on....

[Quark]

Once again he is seeing a difference in Winifred towards him; as later we see the surprise he has about the red flowers on the piano.

Yeah, Winifred's manner is slightly changed from what Coutts remembers. The way Coutts has distanced himself from her has made it necessary for her to find some boldness. It's clear she struggling with this, though. She shrinks from directly asking Coutts key questions, and she regrets having bought her red flowers. This is a huge turn-off for Coutts who finds this timidness odious. Part of why he hates this so is because he's feeling the same tension and anticipation the reader is. For the reader this is slightly exhilarating, but for him it's probably just uncomfortable. The other reason why he might hate Winifred's reserve is because it makes a relationship with her impossible. Coutts says later, "for if I breathe outwards, in the positive movement toward you, you move off." Coutts hates her because he knows that any advance he makes toward her will be repelled. Winifred, on the other hand, loves Coutts--now that he's engaged--because it restrains him from making any advances. His desire for her is just a wistful longing which is safe for her. Coutts concludes: "If I draw in a vacant sigh of soulfulness, you flow near my lips." I can see why this would frustrate Coutts.


So even though he is seeing her now so much altered, he hates this ‘outspokenness’ in Winifred.

You mean he hates she cannot bear outspokenness, right? That's what the line says.


I was wondering what significance the ‘opposite darkness’ has. Why did the valley ‘re-echoe with vague thread?’ I know he feels a threat here, but wondered why exactly the valley is described this way – is it civilization encroaching on nature? I especially love this ‘gold-and-black’ snake image to describe the train and I think that futher indicates a threat in Coutt’s mind; snakes would for Lawrence. I am not sure – is it actually heading seawards?...Or does he know then that he is headed in the wrong direction – like the train – the opposite direction?

Considering the Pagan symbolism used in the story, snakes in Paganism were a good thing. It was Christianity that made them bad. Snakes in ancient times stood for rebirth, transformation, sometimes eternal life, because of fact that they shed their skin.

I can't help but think this is a sexual allusion.

I think all three of you are right. Virgil is right to suggest that the image is quite sexual, and DM is right that it symbolizes change and newness. The change would be from Connie to Winifred; the sexual allusion hardly needs to be spelled out. Primarily, though, I think Janine is right in bringing up the odd, threatening noise it makes. This indicates that the train is meant to be a warning. The ominous--and oddly sensual--train warns Coutts that he shouldn't be pursuing this encounter.


Is the charm that Wini puts on Coutts a sexual spell?

Yes.

[Virgil]

Yeah, Winifred's manner is slightly changed from what Coutts remembers. The way Coutts has distanced himself from her has made it necessary for her to find some boldness. It's clear she struggling with this, though. She shrinks from directly asking Coutts key questions, and she regrets having bought her red flowers. This is a huge turn-off for Coutts who finds this timidness odious. Part of why he hates this so is because he's feeling the same tension and anticipation the reader is. For the reader this is slightly exhilarating, but for him it's probably just uncomfortable. The other reason why he might hate Winifred's reserve is because it makes a relationship with her impossible. Coutts says later, "for if I breathe outwards, in the positive movement toward you, you move off." Coutts hates her because he knows that any advance he makes toward her will be repelled. Winifred, on the other hand, loves Coutts--now that he's engaged--because it restrains him from making any advances. His desire for her is just a wistful longing which is safe for her. Coutts concludes: "If I draw in a vacant sigh of soulfulness, you flow near my lips." I can see why this would frustrate Coutts.

It sounds like you're speaking from experience Quark. ;) :p You seem to know how Coutts' feels so well. :D

Just a note. Janine sent me a quick PM. She's having a bad time with her eye and will not be on the forum tonight and possibly tomorrow as well.

[Quark]

Just a note. Janine sent me a quick PM. She's having a bad time with her eye and will not be on the forum tonight and possibly tomorrow as well.

She said something about that in a previous post. I hope it's not too serious.


It sounds like you're speaking from experience Quark. ;) :p You seem to know how Coutts' feels so well. :D

Well, you keep pushing me away Virgil.

[Dark Muse]

Well, you keep pushing me away Virgil.

OMG LOL :lol:

[Janine]

OMG LOL :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol: me too!!!....poor Quark!...nobody wuves him......



I will be here soon...probably tonight. Eyes are mostly all better now.

[Virgil]

:lol: :lol: :lol: me too!!!....poor Quark!...nobody wuves him......



I will be here soon...probably tonight. Eyes are mostly all better now.

Great about your eyes Janine. I should be here tonight too, as long as Quark keeps his hands to himself. :lol: Tomorrow my wife and I have tickets to Camelot: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/arts/music/09came.html and http://www.pbs.org/livefromlincolncenter/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_4_livefromlincolncenterb rcamelot_2008-05-09. My mother-in-law said it was broadcast on PBS last night. So why did I need tickets? :crash: I'm sure it will be better in person. :)

[Janine]

Great about your eyes Janine. I should be here tonight too, as long as Quark keeps his hands to himself. :lol: Tomorrow my wife and I have tickets to Camelot: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/arts/music/09came.html and http://www.pbs.org/livefromlincolncenter/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_4_livefromlincolncenterb rcamelot_2008-05-09. My mother-in-law said it was broadcast on PBS last night. So why did I need tickets? :crash: I'm sure it will be better in person. :)

Virgil, Wow, that is great! I have not looked at the links yet, but I love "Camelot" and once had the golden oportunity of a lifetime to see it onstage in NYC on Broadway - it was the version with Richard Harris as Arthur - what an experience that was! I was always crazy over Richard Harris. Is this the stage play you will see tomorrow? Oh, I am so jealous. I want to go, too. I loved that show! Yes, why of course, it will be waaaay better live. You will just adore it. I know I did and I love all the music so much. Your wife will love it, too.
I had to come back in here and edit, after I looked at the link. Wow, the great Gabriel Bryne is starring as King Arthur - I adore him! This sounds like a great production, Virgil. Now I am really jealous. Here are the song highlights: Among the many musical highlights in Camelot are Arthur's "I Wonder What the King is Doing Tonight," Guenevere's "The Lusty Month of May" and Lancelot's "If Ever I Would Leave You."...love them all, but last one is one of all my all time-favorite songs...awwww....lucky you! Do enjoy it. I think I will go and listen to the soundtrack tonight. I have it on CD. I read the two articles now and the stage set and orchestra sound great and very dynamic.

Well, I certainly hope our beloved Quark, keeps his hands off of you...:lol: I know better, he liked girls - he told me he used a yellow marker in part of the text to one of L's book and I suggested he needed to read "Lady Chatterly's Lover"; that he would need a whole box of those markers!

I was out and my eyes feel sort of funny again. The weather here is cooler and so damp - horrible day :( and will be cold tonight I predict. Where did that healing Lawrence sun go to? I have to be careful still about the eyes, or I will relapse. I hope to be on tonight later. Did everyone finish up discussing this part of the text that I posted? It seemed there might be a few more things to point out about it; that post of text is a page or so back, by now.

If all of you say you are done with it and want to shove on, I will post another section to talk about.

[Janine]

I guess we are ready to move on; if anything was missed from the last section of text, feel free to post those comments anytime.

Next Part of Text


"I find a lucky pebble. I think, now I'll throw it over my left shoulder, and wish. So I spit over my little finger, and throw the white pebble behind me, and then, when I want to wish, I'm done. I say to myself: 'Wish,' and myself says back: 'I don't want anything.' I say again: 'Wish, you fool,' but I'm as dumb of wishes as a newt. And then, because it rather frightens me, I say in a hurry: 'A million of money.' Do you know what to wish for when you see the new moon?"
What does everyone think of the significance of this paragraph? My impression of that Coutts says is that he really doesn’t want for anything. He is being truly honest? This tone seems to me to be cynical or maybe careless in someway.

She laughed quickly.
"I think so," she said. "But my wish varies."[b]
[b]"I wish mine did," he said, whimsically lugubrious.
She took his hand in a little impulse of love.

I does seem to be that his statement sets up opposing thoughts between the two and the continue to go on speaking in a code to be interpreted by each about one another. When she takes up his hand it is an impulsive gesture and the text says of love. Therefore does she really love Coutts?

They walked hand in hand on the ridge of the down, bunches of lights shining below, the big radiance of London advancing like a wonder in front.
This sets the scene of a very magical romantic night, with more references to the light as in the words ‘shining’, ‘radiance’, and ‘wonder’….much like Quark pointed out before, as it they are thrown into this world of night and fantasy as in “Midsummer’s Nights Dream.” Note that they now are joined ‘hand in hand’.


"You know . . ." he began, then stopped.
"I don't . . ." she ironically urged.
"Do you want to?" he laughed.
"Yes; one is never at peace with oneself till one understands."
"Understands what?" he asked brutally. He knew she meant that she wanted to understand the situation he and she were in.
"How to resolve the discord," she said, balking the issue. He would have liked her to say: "What you want of me."
Interesting passage and was not sure what to make of the key words entirely such as ‘ironically’…also what was he about to say when he began “You know…..?” Why exactly did she say “I don’t…” Did she wish things to remain mysterious between them? She admits then that one is never at peace until they resolve the discord and he knew she wanted to understand their position at this time. He holds back from saying “What you want of me.” – both seem afraid to actually come out and say what is on their minds. Why can’t they openly confront each other? Would that ruin the magic and mystery of the evening?

"Your foggy weather of symbolism, as usual," he said.
"The fog is not of symbols," she replied, in her metallic voice of displeasure. "It may be symbols are candles in a fog."
"I prefer my fog without candles. I'm the fog, eh? Then I'll blow out your candle, and you'll see me better. Your candles of speech, symbols and so forth, only lead you more wrong. I'm going to wander blind, and go by instinct, like a moth that flies and settles on the wooden box his mate is shut up in."
This is one of my favorite passages, and these images, but I am not sure I clearly understand what he is saying when he says “I prefer my fog without candles, then asks, “I’m the fog, eh?” Is he then saying that all this symbolism just leads him astray and makes him blind to any truth? If she says that symbols may be candles in a fog and he wishes to do away with them, then I suppose this means he would like to be straightforward with her and not play these symbolic games, as she would have these symbols be interpreted by each.
The last line seems to indicate that he is thinking instinctively and wandering blindly or employing Lawrence’s idea of blood-consciousness and Winifred is using mind games. He would therefore be attracted to her wooden box of mystery, yet she is shut tight within herself. The moth was mentioned earlier as being attracted to the flame and now it is mentioned again as settling on a ‘wooden box’ his mate, would be ‘shut up’ within. I like the analogies in this particular passage and how they relate back to the earlier mention of the moth and flame. Also, does his reference to himself as a fog indictate his proceeding blindly or by instinct (blood-consciously)?

"Isn't it an ignis fatuus you are flying after, at that rate?" she said.
"Maybe, for if I breathe outwards, in the positive movement towards you, you move off. If I draw in a vacant sigh of soulfulness, you flow nearly to my lips."
"This is a very interesting symbol," she said, with sharp sarcasm.
I especially like that middle line, as has been already made mention to earlier. It is so specific and the meaning quite clear. If he holds back, then Winifred comes towards him and the opposite. It seems this clearly states the game they are playing or the game that Winifred is leading him along in playing with her. I think by acting in this way she is building suspense and also tantalizing Coutts further. He knows how to keep him interested and yet at bay at nearly the same time.
What exactly is the translation of "ignis fatuus" - Virgil, you are good at these Latin/Greek phrases. It is 'fatal'... something..or....flame? duh, help...I never had Latin in school.


He hated her, truly. She hated him. Yet they held hands fast as they walked.
"We are just the same as we were a year ago," he laughed. But he hated her, for all his laughter.
When, at the "Swan and Sugar-Loaf", they mounted the car, she climbed to the top, in spite of the sharp night. They nestled side by side, shoulders caressing, and all the time that they ran under the round lamps neither spoke.
Clearly and honestly stated is the fact, that they both truly hate each other. I think there is a fine line between love and hate; both are strong emotions. Even though, they feel this strong impulse of hate towards each other, they hold fast their hands and can’t seem let go; true of their relationship to each other as well. He makes it clear he feels they are no more advanced, than they were when they were together, a year ago. Then he laughs and yet hates her for her laughter as a reaction to his. In the car they continue to stay close, ‘nestled side by side, shoulders caressing.’ I wondered what the significance of her going to the top of the car was, and 'in spite of the sharp night'? Any ideas on that, anyone?

[Dark Muse]

I cannot coment on everything right now, but there were a couple things I wanted to say for the time being.


What does everyone think of the significance of this paragraph? My impression of that Coutts says is that he really doesn’t want for anything. He is being truly honest? This tone seems to me to be cynical or maybe careless in someway.

When I read this, I interepted to mean, he did not really know what he wants. He cannot think of something to wish for, becasue he does not know, what it is that he should wish for, or that he wants in his life, but than he feels as if there should be something, that a person ought to have something they can wish for, so he just throws in the million dollars becasue he does not truly know what else he wants.


I does seem to be that his statement sets up opposing thoughts between the two and the continue to go on speaking in a code to be interpreted by each about one another. When she takes up his hand it is an impulsive gesture and the text says of love. Therefore does she really love Coutts?

I am not completely convinced that she truly loves him. I think that inspite the fact that it says it was a "gesture of love" the use of the word impuslive, could suggest it being more of an act of passion, or out of a physical attraction.


Interesting passage and was not sure what to make of the key words entirely such as ‘ironically’…also what was he about to say when he began “You know…..?” Why exactly did she say “I don’t…” Did she wish things to remain mysterious between them? She admits then that one is never at peace until they resolve the discord and he knew she wanted to understand their position at this time. He holds back from saying “What you want of me.” – both seem afraid to actually come out and say what is on their minds. Why can’t they openly confront each other? Would that ruin the magic and mystery of the evening?

I think in a way that the discord is really all they have within thier relationship, and I think in part they really do not know what there is between them, and niether one can really answer the questions. As I belive it is primarialy a physical attraction between them, the tension and the firction they create with each other, is what helps egg them on. If they were to remove that, than I do not think there would really be anything left between them, becasue I think thier "love" lacks any real depth.

[Quark]

Well, I certainly hope our beloved Quark, keeps his hands off of you...:lol: I know better, he liked girls

Yes, Quark likes girls. I was just trying to creep out Virgil.


I guess we are ready to move on; if anything was missed from the last section of text, feel free to post those comments anytime.

Thanks for posting the next chunk of the story. I probably won't get a chance to post until tomorrow night, though. I'm leaving today, and I want to post on the Chekhov thread before I go.

[Virgil]

Backing up just a little, I definitely think the "spell" Winifred puts on Coutts is sexual, though she may not wish it to be since we learn a kiss is all she wants. I think Coutts know Winifred is not the kind to marry, something a part of him desires, but she does represent the wilder side of him, something another part of him does want to indulge in. However, I don't think the moment of seeing the train is the moment in which Coutts becomes bewitched by Winifred. I think it occurs much earlier, perhaps when he's mentally comparing her to the Venus statue, or when he allows himself to miss the tram with the German lady so he can walk with Winifred.

Everyone keeps saying that Winifred is not the type to marry. What makes her not the type to marry? Yes she's toying with Coutts in this episode, but is this a one time thing or a serial type of thing? For all we know she may be getting back at Coutts for something in their ealier relationship. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see anything in Wini that constitutes someone who goes around like this with many guys. We don't know of course, but Coutts doesn't indicate this about her character.

[Dark Muse]

I think the fact that she has such an unfavorable view of marriage suggests she herself is not the type to marry. Personally I do not think that Winni is objecting to Coutts marrying Connie in specific, but to the idea of Coutts marrying at all.

When they are talking Coutts says to her "Whou should nevery marry anyone"

and she replies "And you must offer your head to harness and be bridled and driven?"

I do not thin Winni is in favor of the idea of marraige at all.

[Janine]

I think the fact that she has such an unfavorable view of marriage suggests she herself is not the type to marry. Personally I do not think that Winni is objecting to Coutts marrying Connie in specific, but to the idea of Coutts marrying at all.

When they are talking Coutts says to her "Whou should nevery marry anyone"

and she replies "And you must offer your head to harness and be bridled and driven?"

I do not thin Winni is in favor of the idea of marraige at all.

Well, I am here now; but after I write this I have to go back and answer others of the posts. I seem to have caused a stir here and some opposition to thinks I said in my commentary on last part of text I posted. Good! Means you are all awake and noticed. I guess some opposition keeps you all interested.

Ok, Dark Muse, in answer to you answer to Virgil's post; I agree with V that we can't truly assume that Winifred is against marriage herself, and especially to Coutts. I think she would like to control him and be part of his life (maybe as Lawrence viewed his mother); now that might not equate to marriage, but she certainly would like something with him - an arrangement, I don't know...maybe it would be marriage she would eventually want or an engagement. I don't feel we have enough information to determine what Winifred truly wants. I think that Antiquarian put it well when she said 'neither of them knew what they wanted'. I agree with that idea. So how can we definitively say Winifred is against marriage? I think definitely she is against Coutts marrying with Connie. That I am sure of. I think that if Coutts were to marry Connie sure enough, it would be as she stated '"And you must offer your head to harness and be bridled and driven?" He admitted as much when he brought up the idea of a cross to be nailed to, this idea indicating his life and marriage to Connie.


I am going now to answer the other posts above.

[Janine]

I cannot coment on everything right now, but there were a couple things I wanted to say for the time being.

Good, glad you saw the next part of the text I posted last night.


When I read this, I interepted to mean, he did not really know what he wants. He cannot think of something to wish for, becasue he does not know, what it is that he should wish for, or that he wants in his life, but than he feels as if there should be something, that a person ought to have something they can wish for, so he just throws in the million dollars becasue he does not truly know what else he wants.

Yes, Dark Muse, I would agree with you on all of this. I think he truly did not know what he wanted. He is quite confused about what he wants long term in his life.


I am not completely convinced that she truly loves him. I think that inspite the fact that it says it was a "gesture of love" the use of the word impuslive, could suggest it being more of an act of passion, or out of a physical attraction.

I don't know for sure; she might love him for what he was and apparently he is quite intelligent and a deep thinker, that is evident by the way the spar verbally with each other. I know the actual person, Helen, who this character was fashioned after may have felt some degree of love for Lawrence, who is the model for Coutts. I think that a lot of woman loved Lawrence, but that does not mean they thought him attainable. He just had a natural attractiveness for women and it was not such a physical thing as his whole personality, etc. It could be such in this instant that Helen does feel something deeper than just passion or sex attraction to Coutts. Afterall at the end she is the one to withdraw her affections first. If it was merely sexual attraction why would she care and why would she then stop when he wanted to make love to her. If she wanted nothing further than that then they would have proceeded and not let anything obtruct their in the path to passion. Something vital stopped them and it started with Winifred pulling away. I believe she did want Coutts but she did not just want his only his sexual being, he wanted way more than that.


I think in a way that the discord is really all they have within thier relationship, and I think in part they really do not know what there is between them, and niether one can really answer the questions. As I belive it is primarialy a physical attraction between them, the tension and the firction they create with each other, is what helps egg them on. If they were to remove that, than I do not think there would really be anything left between them, becasue I think thier "love" lacks any real depth.

I don't think the 'discord' is all they had going for their relationship to each other. I don't think either of them would be that shallow. I don't see either as shallow people or angry mean people who just want to take and never give back; or even try and get even. I just think they both are in a state of individual 'discord', within themselves; not just in relation to each other. Both are restless and don't know how to proceed to any kind of real conclusion, so they merely play this game verbally with each other, egging each other on in a kind of dreamlike fantasy world of their own making. I think they enjoy this game more than anything - yes, as you said 'the tension and the friction' is evident and it drives them on to pursue each other. It is a contest of wills, in one way. Whether the love lacks depth is not so important to me, but I think if it was realised fully, eventually it would destroy itself entirely as a flame burns out...I think this, because they seem to ignite a fire beneath each other (call it passion) and then they like to play with the fire and they would eventually just be consumed by it. I think this has a lot to do with their individual 'wills'.

[Janine]

Yes, Quark likes girls. I was just trying to creep out Virgil.
:lol: that you did!:lol: I hope you meet a nice one soon, Quark, so you don't have to go on creeping out V. :lol:


Thanks for posting the next chunk of the story. I probably won't get a chance to post until tomorrow night, though. I'm leaving today, and I want to post on the Chekhov thread before I go.

Take your time; I posted in Chekhov today. The thread was fading away towards that dreaded second page.;)


Backing up just a little, I definitely think the "spell" Winifred puts on Coutts is sexual, though she may not wish it to be since we learn a kiss is all she wants. I think Coutts know Winifred is not the kind to marry, something a part of him desires, but she does represent the wilder side of him, something another part of him does want to indulge in.

Antiquarian, I do agree - the spell is one of a sexual passionate nature, however, as you said, she stops at a kiss. Why? If it truly is only sexual, why did she stop? I think she uses this power of the sexual spell to lore Coutts to her, but I do feel something deeper is happening within her and not just something little significance or merely sex. Like the moth that is attracted to the flame - mentioned several times throughout the story - Coutts acts as the moth and she the tempting flame. I am not entirely convinced that she does not seek for more; to the contrary, I think she would like a lot more with Coutts; this is why she does not give in to his advances. Had the lamp not spilled over and he left perhaps angrily, would this not mean he might again try to achieve the passion between them, say another time? I don't know. I think at the crucial point of the kiss being withdrawn, Winifred knows she is lording a sort of control over Coutts - the control of her 'charm', her 'spell', which makes her attractive to him. As he pulls away in anger, the lamp is kicked over, bringing all possibility of their getting together to an abrupt end. Perhaps if this had not happened, they might have argued again and confronted each other and then she might have given into his desires. Perhaps he would not have returned to marry Connie, at all. The point is and I am just entertaining the question - what exactly did Winifred want of Coutts? At one point in the story, it clearly states his thought that he would have liked to ask this question of her directly. I think that also, his unexpected appearance at Lauries that evening was as a signal to Winifred that he still held interest for her; I don't feel that she felt it was a totally sexual interest. I think if she had she would not have pursued him; what woman would want to be used like that. I honestly think she felt she could secure his affections and attentions by using her sexual power over him; using the charm of the flames of passion to draw him to her.

As I said below to Dark Muse, I don't think we can fully state in truth that Winifred would never desire to marry, ever. I do think she is a more passionate type woman than Connie probably is. I get that from the information we are given about Connie directly within the text. I think that Winifred has the capacity for passion (I also can site text to back that up) beyond what Connie would ever realise and I think that Coutts knows this. He is torn between the nice 'churchy' type woman and this more free spirited and modern thinking woman. I think one will find this theme runs through several of Lawrence's novels and stories, as well. It is born from the whole idea of the fact his parents were such opposites in their thinking and being. After you read "Sons and Lovers" you will get a better sense of this division and why Lawrence thinks in this way. That book acts as a very good foundation to explain this idea in Lawrence of constant exploration of the idea of 'duality'.



However, I don't think the moment of seeing the train is the moment in which Coutts becomes bewitched by Winifred. I think it occurs much earlier, perhaps when he's mentally comparing her to the Venus statue, or when he allows himself to miss the tram with the German lady so he can walk with Winifred.

Yes, I too think it began much sooner than his seeing the train. I think I merely said or meant, that at that moment, it became clearer or more conscious to Coutts, when he noticed the intertwined 'black-and-gold' of the train in reference to the image of a snake.

I found the snake poem online last night. I will post it soon. It is quite interesting.

Quote by Virgil:

Everyone keeps saying that Winifred is not the type to marry. What makes her not the type to marry? Yes she's toying with Coutts in this episode, but is this a one time thing or a serial type of thing? For all we know she may be getting back at Coutts for something in their ealier relationship. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see anything in Wini that constitutes someone who goes around like this with many guys. We don't know of course, but Coutts doesn't indicate this about her character.

Virgil, I agree completely. I don't see Winifred as a 'loose woman' or someone who constantly teases men. She is more modern thinking, than the finance, but that does not mean she would never be the marrying type - what exactly is the 'marrying type?' A lot of people say that about themselves, and eventually, meet the right partner and marry. I just feel that when they are making these statements - a sort of 'off-the-cuff' way of talking and a code of carefully crafted words, these words and phrases are not total reality or seriously honestly reflect, what they truly feel in their hearts. What doe they feel in their hearts? Do they even know? I think many things are said in this story, that are not honestly mean or are merely meant to get a reaction from each other. This would also, be my answer to your last post, Dark Muse.

I also want to add this to my thought 'a thin line between love and hate'. I felt this true from the text, I read directly from the story when it stated:


Thus, after months of separation, they dovetailed into the same love and hate.

Both 'love' and 'hate' are strong emotions and I feel one can't hate a person, unless they truly did love them, at one point. Yes, this love is a destructive one, most likely. Both 'love' and 'hate' are emotions of passion, not of complacency. Many times throughout the text of this story the two words are used in the same statement, not just this one, I believe.

[Janine]

Janine, I think Winifred is all about control over men. To me, she wanted to be seen as a temptress, but she didn't want to fulfill the tempted. LOL I see her as one of those women who want to be very attractive to men, to be able to lure any man she wants to her, but then not give in. For Winifred, the thrill is in the hunt, not the capture. That's partly why I don't think she's the marrying type, Virgil. Once she catches a man, the thrill is gone for her and she has to move on to someone new.

I've seen actual women like this. They want the "thrill" of luring a man away from his wife or girlfriend, but when they do, they don't want the man. They discard him and move on to their next prey. Maybe Winifred didn't even want Coutts after she saw she could, indeed have him for the taking. He wisely doesn't stick around long enough to find out.

Antiquarian, I might assume this to be true and Winifred to be this type or woman, if they had not previously had a relationship together. I don't think either, Winifred or Coutts, know exactly why they parted to begin with, but it may have been because Winifred would not accept Coutts in a fully sexual way that he desired and a struggle ensued between them; this I would easily imagine to be the case. This does not mean she is not about controling him. But who is to say, what might have happened, if they had come together sexually, when they were together the first time? Yes, now I see that Winifred is luring him on and playing this game with Coutts, but did she always do this? Afterall, she now wants him back or thinks she does. She still does have feelings for him, I believe. I don't think Winifred can be 'type-cast' in the role you described above. She is not a shallow seeming woman - she plays beautifully and deeply feels a passion on her violin and she does have her good points. I think that, in this story, she is seen as the witch that Coutts is percieving her as, because she is charming him, loring him onward to his temptation of cheating on Connie. He wants to break with her at the end but does she truly wish it? I don't think that she does. Even though I feel she is leading him on, I do feel she has some lingering feelings for the man and is not just out to get him away from Connie or anyone for that matter. I honestly think she is picking up signals from Coutts all the time about how restless and unsure he is about his engagement. I think she sees this as an 'in' to lore him back to her. Remember that they were once a couple and most likely very close, just not sexually intimate apparently. Even Laura, in the beginning of the story when talking with Coutts, passes the remark that she does not understand the two of them, or why they parted ways.

[Dark Muse]

Janine, I think Winifred is all about control over men. To me, she wanted to be seen as a temptress, but she didn't want to fulfill the tempted. LOL I see her as one of those women who want to be very attractive to men, to be able to lure any man she wants to her, but then not give in. For Winifred, the thrill is in the hunt, not the capture. That's partly why I don't think she's the marrying type, Virgil. Once she catches a man, the thrill is gone for her and she has to move on to someone new.

I've seen actual women like this. They want the "thrill" of luring a man away from his wife or girlfriend, but when they do, they don't want the man. They discard him and move on to their next prey. Maybe Winifred didn't even want Coutts after she saw she could, indeed have him for the taking. He wisely doesn't stick around long enough to find out.


I would agree with this. Coutts does say to Winni:


You know you only like a wild-goose chase

and Winnise says:


I do

To me this suggests, somethign that is unattainable, and something that would be the oppoiste of something constant and steady like marriage. For once you are married it is no longer a goose chase

But we have the feeling from the wording in the begining of the story that Coutts and Winnie have not seen each other in a while, but it is suddnely when he is engaged she seems to take interest in him once more. Coutts is her wild-goose chase.

For as soon as she snares him, and she manages to wrap him around her finger, is when she than wants to draw back from him, and decide she really does not want to go any further with him.

[Janine]

I would agree with this. Coutts does say to Winni:
"You know you only like a wild-goose chase"

and Winnise says: "I do"

Dark Muse, I knew you would promptly be back with your rebutal. Sometimes, I think we are waging a debate thread here. Anyway, it does keep things interesting. You are making me laugh though - who is Winnise? ;) :lol: I think that might be like Virgil's 'ooked', which I kidded him about unmercilessly. Now I am attacking you, but it is all 'just in fun', I hope you know that, DM.

Anyway, that is true. He says she only "likes a wild-goose chase" and that is Coutts perception but she does affirm it with her "I do". How sincere are they actually? I think both of them are hiding a lot beneath their exterior selves. I guess from prior readings of Lawrence work and thinking back to "Sons and Lovers" I feel one cannot fully know the complexity in the characters. This is one thing that always intrigues me about Lawrence. His characters are never black and white. Therefore, I admit I am affected by this fact, and prior knowledge, of how Lawrence treats relationships in his works; therefore it is hard for me to see it in a simplistic light. I can't just say that she is this or that type woman. I think she is complex, as complex as Coutts is and therefore she is difficult to explain away with a few phrases. I feel she is definitely a confused woman and he is a confused young man. I actually like the open-endedness of the the conclusion of the story because he keeps one wondering 'what if' or 'what will happen now'.



To me this suggests, somethign that is unattainable, and something that would be the oppoiste of something constant and steady like marriage. For once you are married it is no longer a goose chase

This is true and often woman and men, I would imagine go for the object of their affections because they are safe being unattainable. It also seems to be a great aphrodisiac to drive people on in a passionate sense. The 'unattainable' is always a challenge. I don't know about the last line of yours. We read another short story, in which the woman did lead the man on a sort of 'goose-chase' and she was very much married to him "The White Stocking". I don't think that legally being married necessarily means one is totally secure either. The woman or the man in a marriage can still play these games of attraction/rejection with the married partner; they can still exert their wills over each other. Lawrence's own parents had a sort of test of wills all the time.



But we have the feeling from the wording in the begining of the story that Coutts and Winnie have not seen each other in a while, but it is suddnely when he is engaged she seems to take interest in him once more. Coutts is her wild-goose chase.

True but do we know how long they were actually together as a couple? I don't know if it is 'suddenly' - he is the one who showed up at her door and piqued her interest again. Maybe his mere presense encouraged her to initiate this flirting game and the whole 'goose chase' begins all over again, between them. No doubt, they have played this game before, if he mentions this to her, the fact that she only "likes a wild-goose chase".


For as soon as she snares him, and she manages to wrap him around her finger, is when she than wants to draw back from him, and decide she really does not want to go any further with him.

I know what you mean but I don't quite see it that way; I think she recoils for the same reason, she has in the past most likely. She simply gets to this point and cannot go further with him. Should she? It is true that this time she lead him on and she may have wanted to exert her own power over him at this point; he knows she has done as she did in the past, stop his advances any further towards intimacy. The way she was coming onto him, he probably thought 'this time may be different, she really desires me, she will give into me'. I think it is difficult to say just what went through Winifred's mind, as she recoiled from him. I think she wants more of him, than mere sex, even though she pulls away from his physical advances. Those might only lead to sex and to no more; so she removes herself from his advances. It might be different, if he said he really felt something for her, such as love, or was honest and said he doubted his engagement and truly wanted to be with Winifred. The outcome might lead them back to each other; but I would surmise that would be bad for both of them in the long-run. I don't think she would lose interest, but I think this test of wills would continue in a relationship and that would be the fatal factor. I still stand by the idea that neither woman is right for Coutts. They both would smother him in different ways.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, I knew you would promptly back with your rebutal. Sometimes I think we are waging a debate thread here. Anyway, it does keep things interesting. You are making me laugh though - who is Winnise? ;) :lol: I think that might be like Virgil's 'ooked' which I kidded him about unmercilessly. Now I am attacking you, but it is all 'just in fun', I hope you know that, DM

LOL I have that affect, anywhere I go turns into a debate, I know I am just so awfully disagreable :D

Hehe, I know, usually after I type my posts I copy them into an e-mail just to use the spell check there, than paste the corrected version back here, but somtimes I just get lazy

and I can be terribile at acutally proof-reading

[Janine]

LOL I have that affect, anywhere I go turns into a debate, I know I am just so awfully disagreable :D

;) I kind of though so; see I never took it personally anyway...just figured it was your norm....:lol:


Hehe, I know, usually after I type my posts I copy them into an e-mail just to use the spell check there, than paste the corrected version back here, but somtimes I just get lazy

Doesn't your Microsoft Word program correct type for you? I just type and sometimes it even capitalized words - really freaky! If the word is spelled wrong or suspect, it gets a wiggly underlining, and then you can pull up a menu by placing the cursor over the line; then you see words they suggest. I can't spell well at all; I often look things up in a pocket dictionary, I have by the computer. I really want one of those spelling calculators, but then I decided I wanted a dictionary one instead, and they are more money, so I put off buying one. My pocket dictionary is so worn now the cover recently fell off and a few pages as well...it is a wreck from over-use. I hate looking up words but I do many times.



and I can be terribile at acutally proof-reading

Yes, I guess you do fail to proof-read - you even spelled 'actually' wrong - it is backwards. You may be dyslexic; I think I am also, at times - may brain reverses things automatically - it is so weird when it does that. My son also has it, but he compensates now.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I am a bit dyslexic also sometimes I think my brain thinks faster than my fingers.

my problem is, I usually just type my posts directly into here, I do not type them on word first and than copy and paste. So when I think of it, I will type my post in the forum and than before sending it, copy and past into my e-mail just to spell check, and than past the corrected version.

[Janine]

Yes I am a bit dyslexic also sometimes I think my brain thinks faster than my fingers.

Yes, I think I am a bit, also, and when I am really tired I get even worse. Oh, I do that sometimes, too - although I am not what you would call a fast typist.



my problem is, I usually just type my posts directly into here, I do not type them on word first and than copy and paste. So when I think of it, I will type my post in the forum and than before sending it, copy and past into my e-mail just to spell check, and than past the corrected version.

Many of my posts I type directly in here, but I preview them first and proof-read them, also - we really need spell check; someone asked Logos about it not long ago. Was it in this thread or another? Anyway, I would think it harder to copy out into email, than into your offline Word program; first make a short cut to your desktop. You can minimize that, to the bottom of the screen and pull up the page at will and not shut this page down. Try it sometime and see if it is any easier or faster. I like the way it underlines the 'suspect' words and it does the capitalizing automatically. If you ever notice with my posts, I am always editing them; I am kind of a 'chronic editor', I guess.;) :lol:

[Dark Muse]

Well if I place it in an e-mail I do not have to put it into Word, becasue my e-mail has is own autamatic spell check that works just like word, so I just paste the post in e-mail, and than from the email spell check it and post it in here. So I do not acutally send the e-mail I just post it in as if I were writing an e-mail.

[Virgil]

Janine, I think Winifred is all about control over men. To me, she wanted to be seen as a temptress, but she didn't want to fulfill the tempted. LOL I see her as one of those women who want to be very attractive to men, to be able to lure any man she wants to her, but then not give in. For Winifred, the thrill is in the hunt, not the capture. That's partly why I don't think she's the marrying type, Virgil. Once she catches a man, the thrill is gone for her and she has to move on to someone new.

I've seen actual women like this. They want the "thrill" of luring a man away from his wife or girlfriend, but when they do, they don't want the man. They discard him and move on to their next prey. Maybe Winifred didn't even want Coutts after she saw she could, indeed have him for the taking. He wisely doesn't stick around long enough to find out.


I would agree with this. Coutts does say to Winni:



and Winnise says:



To me this suggests, somethign that is unattainable, and something that would be the oppoiste of something constant and steady like marriage. For once you are married it is no longer a goose chase

But we have the feeling from the wording in the begining of the story that Coutts and Winnie have not seen each other in a while, but it is suddnely when he is engaged she seems to take interest in him once more. Coutts is her wild-goose chase.

For as soon as she snares him, and she manages to wrap him around her finger, is when she than wants to draw back from him, and decide she really does not want to go any further with him.

Perhaps you two are right. I did refer to Wini as Artemis, the goddess of hunt. She was a virginal goddess. She didn't lure men but men were lured to her. Perhaps this is what Lawrence meant by "a la mode." This is the woman of the new times, not the virginal Mary (Connie) but the virginal huntress (Wini). It's probably a good time to re-read the entire story through.

[Janine]

Perhaps you two are right. I did refer to Wini as Artemis, the goddess of hunt. She was a virginal goddess. She didn't lure men but men were lured to her. Perhaps this is what Lawrence meant by "a la mode." This is the woman of the new times, not the virginal Mary (Connie) but the virginal huntress (Wini). It's probably a good time to re-read the entire story through.

Read it through again? I read it now about 3 times. How did you get the goddess Artemis from the symbolism? Is Artemis the same as the god Diana? I know she was considered the goddess of the hunt. I have a bisque statue of her.

Hey, Virgil, how was the show at the Lincoln Center? It looked to be fabulous when I checked out the links you posted.

I am having trouble on this site again; my post are going through super-slowly. Anyone else with that complaint?

[Dark Muse]

Yes Artemis is the same as Diana. She was also the twin of Apollo who was brought up at some point in this thread, so that is where the Artemis connection could come in. And though she was not a moon goddess persae, she was connected to the moon, and moon symbolism.

[Virgil]

Read it through again? I read it now about 3 times. How did you get the goddess Artemis from the symbolism? Is Artemis the same as the god Diana? I know she was considered the goddess of the hunt. I have a bisque statue of her.

Yes. Dark Muse answered it well above.


Hey, Virgil, how was the show at the Lincoln Center? It looked to be fabulous when I checked out the links you posted.
It was good, though not overwelming. Whoever played Lancelot (Nathan Gunn) was excellent. Gabriel Byrne never sold me as King Arthur. He didn't have much of a singing voice. The rest were adequate.


I am having trouble on this site again; my post are going through super-slowly. Anyone else with that complaint?
It's ok now in the morning. A little slow but not that slow.

[Dark Muse]

Now, of course, that could very well mean that it was the first kiss she had given in a genuine manner. But I don't think Winifred and Coutts were ever lovers. Another place says a kiss is all she ever wanted. And then there's the part about her only liking a wild goose chase. I still see her as a temptress, with no desire for a relationship or marriage.

Yes, personally I tend to agree with this.

[Janine]

The site is working very, very slowly for me.

I thought so; I have never seen it this slow; I was thinking it was my computer again because it was slow yesterday on Amazon as well, but not as badly as on here. Maybe systems are all jammed up this weekend.


One of the reasons I think Winifred is just a temptress and that their previous relationship had not been sexual is this:

Then he drew her from the chair up to him. She came, arms always round his neck, till at last she lay along his breast as he stood, feet planted wide, clasping her tight, his mouth on her neck. She turned suddenly to meet his full, red mouth in a kiss. He felt his moustache prick back into his lips. It was the first kiss she had genuinely given.

Now, of course, that could very well mean that it was the first kiss she had given in a genuine manner. But I don't think Winifred and Coutts were ever lovers. Another place says a kiss is all she ever wanted. And then there's the part about her only liking a wild goose chase. I still see her as a temptress, with no desire for a relationship or marriage.

I agree with you on this point, Antiquarian. I recalled it saying that about the 'first genuine kiss'. I guess what is playing into this for me, is Lawrence's characters in other novels, such as "Sons and Lovers" and even "Women in Love' - especially WIL for some reason. Maybe, because I finished listening to the audiofile of that novel the other night and I could see how intricate the relationship was between two people, who also had a love/hate thing going on. They too, don't openingly confront each other, but tend to skirt around the issues, or talk in a sort of code, and there is a definite power-play between them.
Perhaps it is that Winifred will not allow herself to truly love, yet she does pull Coutts to her, and then at the vital moment, rejects him. For Coutts, this is a very frustrating game, especially when she plants that passionate and genuine kiss upon his mouth. This to me would indicate that prior in their relationship, he may have been the one always initiating the kissing and now she goes to him with that kiss. She gives a little of herself to him in the kiss, and he thinks it is a signal that she wants more. I think that underneath it all, Winifred likes power more than she does love. This is not to say she would not wish for love, but she cannot make the step into the realm of love; she cannot give up herself to a man, at least not to Coutts. If she could with Coutts, who is to say what might happen, but she probably would have to give up her 'will' entirely to him, the man. She is not willing to do this. Something within her will not alow it. She therefore, does tempt him up until that crucial moment of the kiss and then withdraws from him.
I don't think now, that they ever were sexual lovers (in the past); I can say that I know Lawrence was not big on mouth kissing, this might be due to his having TB; so easily he could have had sex with her without mouth kissing or her giving back to him totally; but in this case I now don't believe they were that intimate. In "Sons and Lovers" Jessie is the same; never truly giving back to Paul, and yet there is no doubt in my mind she loved him intensely. This is why I can't rule out the notion of love altogether with Winifred. I don't know what exactly is going on in her head or how she feels about Coutts. She may be covering up a lot with her language of symbols and her 'candles in the fog'. People do cover up their true feelings. She may have missed him terribly over the months of separation and she may have been torn appart about his proposal. She certainly tries for an instant to get him back with that genuine kiss at that key moment. She has been working hard, throughout the walk home, to lure him back to her. I think that although they were not sexual lovers, they were lovers of sorts. They probably felt passion in the past, but stopped at the moment it would go too far. I imagine that Winifred wants that feeling back badly. I don't know if that is just infatuation or love on her part. It is hard for me to fathom she did not love him in a certain way or certain degree. One could say all her nonscense and code language got in the way of true intimacy between them. As he said earlier, he preferred his 'candles blown out'. Apparently, Winifred has played these mind games with Coutts for a long time. She loves the 'drawing him near and pushing him away' game...she gives him just enough line to allow him to approach her again and again. This time the line is broken (the spell she casts) when the fire burns it completely out, breaking the spell she has so intricately woven about Coutts.

I will post more text tomorrow - taking off (my duties in this thread) today for Mother's Day! :lol:



Virgil, I read that about Gabriel Bryne on the site you provided; I read he could not sing and was not in time with the orchestra; I wouldn't have thought he would fit the role anyway. The role of Arthur apparently never did call for a great singer, but still he should have stayed in time with the music. I don't think he is used to singing in stage roles. That is ashame. I read that the actor playing Lancelot was amazing, his voice. He is an opera singer, I believe. Now the woman who played Guenevere did not look the part to me, but who knows. Sorry that it was not that spectacular. Oh well, it is a night out on the town, right? :D

[Virgil]

Virgil, I read that about Gabriel Bryne on the site you provided; I read he could not sing and was not in time with the orchestra; I wouldn't have thought he would fit the role anyway. The role of Arthur apparently never did call for a great singer, but still he should have stayed in time with the music. I don't think he is used to singing in stage roles. That is ashame. I read that the actor playing Lancelot was amazing, his voice. He is an opera singer, I believe. Now the woman who played Guenevere did not look the part to me, but who knows. Sorry that it was not that spectacular. Oh well, it is a night out on the town, right? :D

Yes, night on the town. ;) I always enjoy that. Got to eat at a Mexican restaurant, which for some reason we don't have on Staten Island. Had a big margarita. :D :D And then we stopped at this Barnes and Noble that is a block or so away from the Philharmonic. It's got four floors of books. Actually I stopped at the magazine section, something I hardly ever do, and they had a huge collection of literary magazines. I hadn't even heard of many of them. I didn't buy any but it was cool to go flip through them. At least I know where to go to explore magazines for literary submissions, if I ever get so bold.

As to the story, are we up to the section where they go inside Wini's apartment?

[Janine]

Yes, night on the town. ;) I always enjoy that. Got to eat at a Mexican restaurant, which for some reason we don't have on Staten Island. Had a big margarita. :D :D And then we stopped at this Barnes and Noble that is a block or so away from the Philharmonic. It's got four floors of books. Actually I stopped at the magazine section, something I hardly ever do, and they had a huge collection of literary magazines. I hadn't even heard of many of them. I didn't buy any but it was cool to go flip through them. At least I know where to go to explore magazines for literary submissions, if I ever get so bold.

As to the story, are we up to the section where they go inside Wini's apartment?

Soon we are getting to that part.....I think it is next; but I need tonight off now....it is getting late. I can try and post something tomorrow, but I am a nervous wreck...unsure what tomorrow will bring. The baby might be on the way on Tues or this week. I can explain later. Today was her due date, you know. I am doing laundry right now and tired out. I might be summoned to the hospital anytime this week; just talked to my son. Just warning you, if I should disappear and you wonder where I wandered off to. Find me at the hospital nursery:D

Virgil, they don't have Mexican food on Staten Island? get out?! That is odd. I am glad you enjoyed your big margarita, and Mexican foold....ummmm.
The B&N sounded like a 'book lover's dream'. What kind of magazines, and just why did you say you had to be 'bold' to check them out again? I am really suspicious of you now...;) :lol: Are you being truthful or talking in a fog of code? ;) :lol: hummm...you have me wondering now....literary magazines... indeed! :brow:

[Quark]

I still see her as a temptress, with no desire for a relationship or marriage.

I'll have to consider this question of her motives further. Doesn't L say something like the kiss was all she wanted. That does make her sound like a temptress, but I have a difficult time reconciling that with the portrait we get of her in other scenes. If she's merely interested in Coutts sexually for that night, why is she jealous of his relationship with Connie? Why is she so timid, too? I would think she would be unabased about this if she were a temptress.

[Dark Muse]

I am not sure if I see her as truly being "jealous" in the normal sense. Really I think she is just messing with Coutts, becasue I do not think she beleives Coutts should marry period. Though also she does not really want Coutts to herself, at least not in the comitted relationship sense.

[Virgil]

Soon we are getting to that part.....I think it is next; but I need tonight off now....it is getting late. I can try and post something tomorrow, but I am a nervous wreck...unsure what tomorrow will bring. The baby might be on the way on Tues or this week. I can explain later. Today was her due date, you know. I am doing laundry right now and tired out. I might be summoned to the hospital anytime this week; just talked to my son. Just warning you, if I should disappear and you wonder where I wandered off to. Find me at the hospital nursery:D

Oh best of luck. I probably won't be on much this week. I have guests from out of town visiting at work and a major presentation to brief. I'll be missing much of this week I'm afraid.


The B&N sounded like a 'book lover's dream'. What kind of magazines, and just why did you say you had to be 'bold' to check them out again? I am really suspicious of you now...;) :lol: Are you being truthful or talking in a fog of code? ;) :lol: hummm...you have me wondering now....literary magazines... indeed! :brow:
Janine you've got such a dirty mind. :lol: Perhaps I was ambiguous but I meant now I know what magazines exist to submit some of my writing to. Go back and read what I wrote. I did not mean anything along the lines you are implying. :lol:

[Quark]

I am not sure if I see her as truly being "jealous" in the normal sense. Really I think she is just messing with Coutts, becasue I do not think she beleives Coutts should marry period. Though also she does not really want Coutts to herself, at least not in the comitted relationship sense.

Jealous is probably too strong of a word. I'm not sure what I mean. I don't know why I'm even arguing against her being a temptress since I was the first person to call her that. I think I'm just reacting to the idea that Winifred's and Coutts' relationship is purely sexual. There seems to be some attraction that isn't purely libinous. It says Coutts love and hates her. That half that is love I don't think is merely sexual.

[Janine]

Jealous is probably too strong of a word. I'm not sure what I mean. I don't know why I'm even arguing against her being a temptress since I was the first person to call her that. I think I'm just reacting to the idea that Winifred's and Coutts' relationship is purely sexual. There seems to be some attraction that isn't purely libinous. It says Coutts love and hates her. That half that is love I don't think is merely sexual.

Here is what I have been saying and questioning all along. No, Quark you are not using too strong a word in 'jealous' - I do think that Winifred is jealous of Connie. I don't see this as a purely sexual attraction on Winifred's part. It may be on Coutts but I doubt that as well. If you go back and read my prior posts you will get more insight into what I am saying. Dark Muse and I actually have been debating this part in quite a number of posts. I agree with you in that the text does clearly state that is was a love/hate relationship - go back and check that part of the text. I quoted it in my post, too. It said they feel back into the same old love and hate relationship - something like that. If it said love then there was not purely this sexual shallow thing between them. She may be toying with him but not in a shallow sense - she is really working hard to get him back. I see him falling under a certain spell but where do we see that she is a true temptress? Where did that word come from and who said it first? Oh, no I see you have owned up to it. I did not realise you said it first. Was it in the actual text or even implied? I don't see her that way entirely and if I can relate her to one that is where the analogy stops. She may be playing this game as a temptress would but in actuality I think that Winifred would like Coutts back, but on her terms and not his. His are the sexual terms; hers would be something more meaningful, even if not marriage, but at least a kind of commitment. I no way see Winifred as a loose woman or a promiscuous woman. She might be just as nice a girl as Connie but more progressive in here thinking.

[Dark Muse]

LOL yes it is true, me and Janine, have been going back and forth upon the issue as I am inclined to belive thiat thier relationship is basically a shallow one, that is not really founded on anything "real" I agree with what Antiquaria says about Winni, mostly just wanting to control men, and Coutts in particular, I do not think they really love each other, and think theres is more of a sexual attraction. Though I do not think they have acutally been sexually intimate, I do think they are driven more by the physcial tension between them, than anything else. I do not think they really have any interest in being in a relatiosnhip with each other.

[Quark]

If you go back and read my prior posts you will get more insight into what I am saying. Dark Muse and I actually have been debating this part in quite a number of posts.

I've seen the back-and-forths between you two, but I was replying specifically to Antiquarian's post. I thought that was a good place to start since that's what set off the most recent debate between you and DM. Like I say, I have to look into this more; but, when I do, I will respond to all the views on this point.


temptress? Where did that word come from and who said it first? Oh, no I see you have owned up to it. I did not realise you said it first. Was it in the actual text or even implied? I don't see her that way entirely and if I can relate her to one that is where the analogy stops.

Yes, it was me, but I forget what led me to call her that. I'll go back and look.

[Janine]

I've seen the back-and-forths between you two, but I was replying specifically to Antiquarian's post. I thought that was a good place to start since that's what set off the most recent debate between you and DM. Like I say, I have to look into this more; but, when I do, I will respond to all the views on this point.

Yes, this whole contraversy is giving me a headache by now. I don't even know how important it is to the story. I just know that Lawrence tried to 'make it' with several 'modern' thinking women who turned him down, so I am drawing from that knowledge. I don't think he and Winifred were totally shallow with each other. Afterall, he enjoyed her music and appreciated it. If you go back and look at the text that I posted (their walk across the country to her place) things may become clearer to you. I don't think any of the women that Lawrence knew were 'shallow type' women; so I can't imagine him writing about one here; again I am drawing on a huge resource of prior knowledge. I don't feel shallow people talk to each other in the manner that these two individuals are speaking. Of course, they are playing a verbal game but it is very much a game full of wit and intelligence. If it were purely 'sexual' this is not how they would be speaking to each other, even in the early 1900's. No, this is more of a power struggle game, not a purely a sexual game. If the conversation was all about sex and only sex I don't think Coutts would be interested, he is not that type of guy. He knew this girl well from another time; they had a relationship. How can things be totally sexual and shallow when you had a relationship at one time with that person?


Yes, it was me, but I forget what led me to call her that. I'll go back and look.

See how rumors get started! :lol:

Anybody else having internet problems on here? I was attempting to post something - actually an edit in the Chekhov - and it refused to go through at all; other posting is soooo slow, I think I will fall asleep.:( :yawnb:
Besides that, I have to get offline now. We are having a kind of theatening windstorm and might have lightning as well. I better unplug, and soon...a power surge killed my connection once and now I unplug to be on the safe side.

[Dark Muse]

Anybody else having internet problems on here? I was attempting to post something - actually an edit in the Chekhov - and it refused to go through at all; other posting is soooo slow, I think I will fall asleep.:( :yawnb: Besides that, I have to get offline now. We are having a kind of theatening windstorm and might have lightning as well. I better unplug, and soon...a power surge killed my connection once and now I unplug to be on the safe side.

When I was trying to view the latest post to the Chekhov thread, it would not go through, the screen just came up blank white