D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread [Archive] - Page 9

Virgil

06-07-2008, 09:09 AM

The man she opened to was tall and thin, but graceful in his energy. He wore white flannels, carried a tennis-racket.
:lol: I found that so funny actually, though I'm not sure it was meant to be funny. The notion of wearing white carrying a tennis racket seems so school boyish to me. It's certainly meant to imply something and the only thing I can think of is youth, adolescent. His mocking of Kate while underneath empathizing reveals a sort of childishness, immaturity, an inability to express real feelings. I think somewhere else he's described as diffident. Even his interaction with the child shows his immaturity, or at least puts him on the same level as the child.

She's being forced out because she's competition for the wife. The situation later with Severn and the couple is briefly mirrored here at the beginning--this time with two women and one man, instead of two men and one woman.
Good point Quark. I didn't pick that up. The mock fight with the child I believe mirrors the climatic one. That too is a parallel. There are parallels that are laid out between these desparate scenes.

I didn't feel that Kate and Severn had anything "going on." (I don't know if anyone said they did.) I felt Kate was just trying to hold onto her dignity.

I didn't think Kate was competition for Mrs. Thomas because Severn later says to Mrs. Thomas that Kate was being thrown out for "such a little thing." If she were competition for Mrs. Thomas, I don't think Severn would have said that to her.
I agree with your first statement Anti; there isn't overt sexual tension between Kate and Severen that I could see. Except for the very fact that Lawrence makes a point of her sexual attractiveness, and that has to be considered. As to the second statement, I think that's where the subtext has to be interpreted. Given the sexual dynamics that are going on, one has to conclude that underlying whatever surface motive they gave to let Kate go, the unconscious firing of Kate has to have been because of her sexual threat to Mrs. Thomas. The same sort of subtext I think has to be used in understanding the fight between Severn and Mr. Thomas; the provided reason is just a surface rationale for a deeper reason.

I think that Mrs. Thomas was jealous of Kate, I do not think Kate and Severn acutally previously had relations, but now that Kate is being noticed as a woman Mrs. Thomas did not want the young man around a woman younger than she is, and who has been described as being beautiful
Yes, this is how I saw the general reationships.

I didn't see any sexual tension there because Severn was too ironic with Kate for that. I also think Severn is too innocent to even recognize any sexual tension, and Kate was too intent on maintaining her dignity in the face of being thrown out.
I completely agree about Severn not seeing the sexual tension. Hahaha. But for Lawrence there is an unconscious.

Kate just seems angry to me, not that I blame her, especially if she has nowhere to go. She might very well be angry with Severn for not sticking up for her more if indeed, he didn't. We know he thinks Mrs. Thomas' reasons are trivial because he says something to that effect later on, but we don't know if that's the extent of his protestation or not.

When Severn says, "A troublesome sort of evening; must be because it's your last with us."

Kate says, "Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.

Then later: The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.

That's why I felt she was angry with all of them. (I don't know how one clenches her breast. I tried to do it and I couldn't. LOL)

I'm ready to move on as soon as slow poke (Virgil) is. (Joking, don't want him to get mad at me.)
I agree with you analysis of Kate. Yes I've caught up and we can move on. ;)

One last thought on the thunder and lightning. I think it was mentioned that it foreshadows the fight, but it does one other thing, it suggests the sort of electricity that hangs about from the sexual tensions that are going on. Just like static electricity is an unseen force, so are the unconscious sexual anxieties.

Just a side not. Janine is aware of this but let me make it clear for everyone else. I don't buy into 90% of this psychobabble. These are just ideas from the early 20th century. Unfortunately many people even today buy into them. I'm just attempting to understand Lawrence, not project my views into the text.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 10:32 AM

I don't buy into the psychobabble, either, which might be why I didn't care for this story too much on some level. I don't believe in psychoanalysis, but I don't want to debate that. On another level, I liked the amusing aspects of the story a lot.

On the second rereading I probably don't think as highly of this story as I initially did. It's very well written, chracterization-wise and the drawing of scenes. But I think there is too much of a leap of faith (all the subtext stuff) that one has to make that makes the themes somewhat tenuous. We could get into that later.

Still, I don't see any sexual tension between Severn and Kate. LOL A lot of women can be insanely jealous of an attractive, or even an unattractive woman, and still know there's absolutely no sexual threat to any man she cares about coming from that woman. I feel this is how Mrs. Thomas felt about Kate. I think Mrs. Thomas just wanted to be the "Queen Bee." I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think there's sexual tension. ;) I honestly don't think it matters if there's sexual tension or not.
No question that whether there is tension between Kate and Severn is questionable. I can't see it overtly either. But given that a lot of the story is subtext and given the sexual electricity between several of the characters and given that Kate is so sensual and beautiful, I jump to this assumption. It seems like it's suggested.

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 12:14 PM

One last thought on the thunder and lightning. I think it was mentioned that it foreshadows the fight, but it does one other thing, it suggests the sort of electricity that hangs about from the sexual tensions that are going on. Just like static electricity is an unseen force, so are the unconscious sexual anxieties.

I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.

Janine

06-07-2008, 01:13 PM

I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.

Yes, you did Dark Muse; I think I commented on what you said, also. I know the electrical storm and tension were mentioned a page or so back.

Of course, there are always going to be better stories, and worse ones, as well; some will be more developed and whether we like them or not is really individual. I choose this current story because I was looking for a simplier one and this one seemed to strike a cord with me. It is a young work, but even with that it does excell compared to some other early works by others. As L said about his "Sons and Lovers" - it is an early work and I will never write just like this again. I find all of L's works fascinating, even though I could rate some better than others; I try not to compare them though because they all seem different to me. Maybe at the end of discussing all the stories we care to on this thread - we could indeed have a sticky poll and rate the stories we have discussed. That might be fun. It would only show what the majority here liked but that may be helpful.

So with this comparatively simple story, if you add in all the assumptions and the subtext, to a huge degree, this story will take on many complications and become more complex than you first though.
Hey, Virgil, I thought you said to me we might be 'over analysising' these stories - going too deeply into them. I didn't personally agree with that idea, but maybe we can make too many blind assumptions about this story, also. When I picked this one, I mainly was interested in the shift in the story between loyalties between the three main characters; husband, wife, and young man. Often these type of situations have surfaced in L's work. In "Sons and Lovers' there was Clara, her husband and Paul, if you recall and in the end Paul and the husband formed a similar bond. I am just trying to say, that when I chose the story this was my concentration. I liked the other elements in the story as well. I did not think anything really sexual about Kate or the baby scene but I will be anxious to hear what all of you have to say about it.

Virgil, thanks for posting so we can move on. I see you got over your scotch and are back to comparable normalacy today. :lol: I read some of your philosphophical thread and got totally confused after awhile; I guess I needed a wine or scotch to understand it all. Too heavy for me.

I will post this part of the text, since I have to go out most of the day. I need to go get ready now. You can all talk about it up to this point since you are all so anxious and I will comment later on.

Next Part of the Text:

Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.

The door opened into a tiny conservatory that was lined with a grapevine. Severn could hear, from the garden beyond, the high prattling of a child. He went to the glass door.

Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.

"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.

The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement.

"All gone up to buds," she said, pointing to the closed marigolds. Then "See!" she shrieked, flinging herself at his legs, grasping the flannel of his trousers, and tugging at him wildly. She was a wild little Mænad. She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers. And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.

The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.

It stoped before the child and Severn goes into the house - this is just the garden scene. That should keep you all busy for awhile and I can easily catch up later tonight. Have fun.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 03:22 PM

I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.
Oh I'm sorry D-M. I must have missed that.

I choose this current story because I was looking for a simplier one and this one seemed to strike a cord with me. It is a young work, but even with that it does excell compared to some other early works by others. As L said about his "Sons and Lovers" - it is an early work and I will never write just like this again. I find all of L's works fascinating, even though I could rate some better than others; I try not to compare them though because they all seem different to me. Maybe at the end of discussing all the stories we care to on this thread - we could indeed have a sticky poll and rate the stories we have discussed. That might be fun. It would only show what the majority here liked but that may be helpful.

Yes that is interesting, and I do find the characterization and the fleshing out of the narrative very well handled. It does show someone incredibly skilled.

Quark

06-07-2008, 06:34 PM

Well, I could be totally wrong about the sexual tension

No, I don't think your wrong at all. The tension is there; it's just not explicitly stated at the beginning. It's created through the tone of their conversation and the development of the plot. There's a flirtatousness in the tone, and the conflict later in the story really changes our opinion of their relationship. Immediately after the fight between the husband and Severn has been resolved, Lawrence reminds the reader that Kate's being thrown out--alsost as if to say "Look! it's happening over here, too."

This little three-year-old is a temptress-in-the-making, a little Eve in the Garden of Eden.

The child is a tease. She toys with Severn just as the mother does. The language in this section is just like in the previous story where there was a similar seduction going on. The man, of course, walks blithely into the trap again.

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 06:46 PM

The child is a tease. She toys with Severn just as the mother does. The language in this section is just like in the previous story where there was a similar seduction going on. The man, of course, walks blithely into the trap again.

That is an interesting observation, the way in which Severn is always stumbling in these "sexual" or "seductive" traps of the women, though of course the child is not at this age being "sexual" intentionally, but there is an implication within her behavior and the way she acts, though I do not think Sever's actions and feelings toward the child are in any way unnatural or inappropriate, there is an implication upon Severn's situation.

When I have the time I will coment on the rest of the text.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 07:29 PM

She was a wild little Mænad.

What catches my eye is that description of the little girls, and I believe Lawrence repeats it later on.

From Webster's:

Main Entry: mae·nad
Pronunciation: \ˈmē-ˌnad\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin maenad-, maenas, from Greek mainad-, mainas, from mainesthai to be mad; akin to Greek menos spirit — more at mind
Date: 1579
1 : bacchante
2 : an unnaturally excited or distraught woman
and

Main Entry: bac·chante
Pronunciation: \bə-ˈkant, -ˈkänt; -ˈkan-tē, -ˈkän-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Latin bacchant-, bacchans
Date: 1579
: a priestess or female follower of Bacchus

What's the significance? I think it suggests her primitive naturalness, a wild freedom prior to society layering people with conventions. Notice that she's the only one associated with a pagan diety. The others are associated with Judaism, Protestism, and Catholicism.

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 07:33 PM

Yes I found it interesting that the child was portrayed as a little heathen, and especially being that Bacchus was the most hedonistic of the Pagan gods.

He would really be the complete extreme in contrast to Catholicism and Prostatism

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 08:01 PM

Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.

I love the description in this passage, and I really liked his use of the word delicate ticking. The word delicate could have more than one meaning here. As the whole balance of the house is quite delicate we late come to see. As well it suggests a certain quiet, and unobtrusiveness, this perhaps is almost the clam before the storm.

Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.

I noticed reading this story, the colors white and yellow seem to crop up a lot, and I was curious about this, as here it points out that the girl is wearing a white dress, and Severn, says it makes him think of a mouse playing in the corn. I love how the sort of free, wildness of the child is captures, with her quick movements and flashing greeting.

"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.

Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.

The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement

I found it interesting how she was constnatly refered to as simply "the baby" when everyone else is given a name, though her mother calls her by name once, other than that she is always only the baby.

She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers.

Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"

And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.

Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.

The way in which he is said to be hunting her, and than it says:

Often she was really frightened of him;

I did wonder just what that was about.

The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.

I loved this passage, and the imagery and desciptions used here.

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 08:04 PM

Becasue we love pictures over here, I could not resist this painting by Monet, of Poplar trees

http://www.artsupply.com/artservices-fromer/540_POPLAR_TREES_-_Claude_Monet%5B1%5D.jpg

Virgil

06-07-2008, 08:38 PM

I noticed reading this story, the colors white and yellow seem to crop up a lot, and I was curious about this, as here it points out that the girl is wearing a white dress, and Severn, says it makes him think of a mouse playing in the corn. I love how the sort of free, wildness of the child is captures, with her quick movements and flashing greeting.

Interesting on the colors. I can't think of any significance. Perhaps just Lawrence trying to be visual.

Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.
You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.

Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"
Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.

Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.
To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 08:48 PM

You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.

Perhaps for Mrs. Thomas tricked is too strong a word, but she does play Severn and Mr. Thoams against each other, when Severn and Mr. Thomas are having thier political debate over the supper table, Mrs. Thomas, takes sides with her husband, becasue she knows if she were to take Severn's side, he would be gentle with Mr. Thomas.

Mrs. Thomas meanwhile took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ectasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The ironly of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitited the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 08:49 PM

Ok, thanks. ;)

Virgil

06-07-2008, 09:40 PM

I hate it that this site logs us off so fast! I wrote a long, long post and lost it all. :flare:

I'm not inclined to write it again. At least not now.

White is innocence, yellow is happiness. Before the fall of Adam, people were innocent and happy, with a positive future and no suffering. They were wild and free and ran around without clothes.

I still think Mary is a little Eve (temptress) in a Garden of Eden.

And I still don't think there's any sexual tension in that first scene between Edward and Kate, though I do think one flirted with the other in the past and that's why Kate is being thrown out.

You may be onto something Anti. Lawrence would use colors in that fashion later in life. Perhaps he may have been using them all along and I never noticed. Thanks.

It's amazing how much of my Lawrence expertise increases by discussing these stories with all you outstanding readers. :)

Dark Muse

06-07-2008, 09:46 PM

I find it interesting that the "Pagan" of the group, the child, who could be cast as Eve, particularly sense she is seen within the gardens, is named Mary of all things, the Virgin.

Or perhaps she is meant to be more Mary Magdalene.

Though I still disagree with Virgil about sexual tension between the child and Severn, I still think it was present between Severn and Kate

Janine

06-07-2008, 09:59 PM

Interesting on the colors. I can't think of any significance. Perhaps just Lawrence trying to be visual.

Yes, and I read that he was doing a lot of painting at this time when he wrote this story. I think Lawrence often uses white; it can signify purity and a certain innocense; a purity before the world's tainting perhaps; a kind of departure back into the purity of the past and the pagan world. It brings to mind a passage in "The White Peacock" in the woods when they all come across wild snowdrops. I will have to look that up and post that passage and it may give you some insight into the idea of white and what it meant to L. It also, could mean a kind of virginal whiteness - the purity of the child and the young man's purity at this point in his life - maybe the purity of Adam, before Eve tempted him with the apple. Also, if you notice, this scene takes place in a garden.

You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.

You know, I don't understand that either; really, it is jumping way aheard of the text that I posted. Can we hold up on that till we get to the conversation between Mrs. Thomas and Severn alone in the parlour?

Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.

I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:

This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon.

A Baby Running Barefoot

When the bare feet of the baby beat across the grass
The little white feet nod like white flowers in the wind,
They poise and run like ripples lapping across the water;
And the sight of their white play among the grass
Is like a little robin’s song, winsome,
Or as two white butterflies settle in the cup of one flower
For a moment, then away with a flutter of wings.

I long for the baby to wander hither to me
Like a wind-shadow wandering over the water,
So that she can stand on my knee
With her little bare feet in my hands,
Cool like syringa buds,
Firm and silken like pink young peony flowers.

I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.

I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.

To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.

I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.

I am kind of tired, so I hope all that makes sense.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 10:10 PM

Yes, and I read that he was doing a lot of painting at this time when he wrote this story. I think Lawrence often uses white; it can signify purity and a certain innocense; a purity before the world's tainting perhaps; a kind of departure back into the purity of the past and the pagan world. It brings to mind a passage in "The White Peacock" in the woods when they all come across wild snowdrops. I will have to look that up and post that passage and it may give you some insight into the idea of white and what it meant to L. It also, could mean a kind of virginal whiteness - the purity of the child and the young man's purity at this point in his life - maybe the purity of Adam, before Eve tempted him with the apple. Also, if you notice, this scene takes place in a garden.

Yes Anti made a good association with the colors.

I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:
The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.

I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.
When and where was he a border? Was that in London?

I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.

I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.

well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante. :D

Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.

Virgil

06-07-2008, 10:15 PM

I wonder if there is an actual definition. :lol: :lol: I'll see if I can look it up. I don't think the child feels any sexual tension, though it could be implied as being in her subconscious.

Edit: Goodness gracious, you're right Anti. There's an actual Wiki entry for sexual tension:

Sexual tension is a plot element employed in works of fiction wherein two or more of the characters sexually long for one another, but the consummation is postponed or never occurs. This longing is often suggested by incidents of intimacy; for instance, when two characters are alone, are physically close, but desire is never explicitly expressed. It also might be suggested in dialogue, as in, for example, a subtle reference to a character's feelings. Sometimes, displays of hostility are used to hide secret attraction, or to deflect true but inconvenient romantic feelings.

The device creates a direction for the plot: toward a resolution. Alternatively, it might create a subplot that may or may not be resolved.

The device, when used by a skilled writer, evokes tension in the audience on account of this private knowledge. In a generic movie, by contrast, sexual tension is often employed and then concluded with a love scene. Soap operas in particular, rely heavily on sexual tension between characters to extend storylines, and maintain interest.

It is important to note that many popular television shows, such as NBC's Friends and Frasier, suffered declining ratings and subsequent cancellation, once the sexual tension between the main characters was dissolved. This was usually achieved when the characters married, entered an ongoing sexual relationship or had a child.

Sexual tension can be a normal part of human sexuality in day to day life. It is particularly common in the workplace, where many people work together in close proximity and develop an attraction to each other, but are unable to pursue a connection for any number of reasons.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_tension"

Virgil

06-07-2008, 10:22 PM

I do think she's going to grow up to be a temptress, but right now, I think Mary symbolizes the freedom and innocence man felt before the fall in the Garden of Eden. No sexual tension. That's how I see it.

Ok I concede. Based on the definition above there is no sexual tension. There must be another word then for what I mean. :confused:

Janine

06-07-2008, 10:52 PM

Yes Anti made a good association with the colors.

Did you mean Anti or me, Janine - my quote was above this remark?

The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.

Thanks, there are few other baby poems and they also are lovely and revealing. I will look them up; I could not find them online.

... where was he a border? Was that in London?

I posted this earlier but you can read more about that in my introduction page to this story:

"This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon."

Interesting, the real baby is Hilda Mary and in this story he calls her just Mary. Croydon, I believe is a superb or section of London. You can probably find photos online of the exact house. In reality Lawrence was attracted to his landlady. It is strange because in the play I just bought, I felt the young man character was representative of Lawrence, and that play may have been written to represent the same sort of triangle, even though the young man in the play is not a border, just a friend to the wife.

well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante. :D

I don't think it is sexual tension either. I think it takes two for that sort of thing and Severn does not see the child in any kind of sexual light. He is only observing that soon she will be too old for him to undress. That would be a natural thought. I think all of you people are seeing too many movies with pedefiles and sick people lately. I don't think 'sexual tension' was Lawrence's intention here at all.

Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.

Maybe we both were thinking in the same vain since I mentioned it too; I just post slower.

Quotes by Antiquarian

Lawrence states that Mary is three-years-old, Janine:

Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white.

I'm one who sees zero sexual tension in the scene in the garden between Edward and Mary. I see it as all innocence, though Mary is an Eve-in-the making.

I think she asks Edward to put her to bed because before the Fall, Adam and Eve were not ashamed of their nakedness, remember? I'm not sure they even knew they were nude. It was just the natural way to be. It was only after the fall that they became ashamed, as Edward is, not exactly ashamed, but more modest. He's grown up enough to know about sin. Mary isn't. Mary is still innocent, so she's not embarrassed by things such as nudity or the licking of Edward's face. It's just natural fun to her, not something sexual.

Thanks for pointing out she was a three year old. That would be about right then to think of no longer undressing/dressing her.
I agree, Antiquarian, with everything else you wrote here.

Janine

06-07-2008, 11:15 PM

White signifies purity and innocence, gold and yellow a positive and happy future. There is mention of a train with a "gold-light" while they are in the garden. The flowers are marigolds. Edward and Mary are dressed in white.

It seems to me it's a figurative scene in the Garden of Eden before the fall, but then Edward, who is old enough, is reminded of man's sin. Adam's sin. Also like Adam, Edward succumbs to Mary's (Eve's) tempting, but in this case, Mary is too young to realize what she's doing. However, she does have some knowledge of it. Lawrence says as much. She knows she's tempting Edward, but it's free and innocent. She doesn't know about sin.

Thanks, Antiquarian, that is good; I think that is an accurate way of paraphrasing it.
I guess I should post more of the story now; what do you think?

Janine

06-07-2008, 11:24 PM

Next Part of the Text:

Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.

"And now we must go in," she heard Severn say.
"No," cried the baby, wild and defiant as a bacchanal. She clung to him like a wild-cat.
"Yes," he said. "Where's your mother?"
"Give me a swing," demanded the child.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.

"Mary!" called Mrs. Thomas, in that low, songful tone of a woman when her heart is roused and happy.
"Mary!" she called, long and sweet.
"Oh, no!" cried the child quickly.

But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.

"Come along here," said Mrs. Thomas roguishly, clasping the baby's waist with her hands.
"Oh, no," cried the child, tucking her head into the young man's neck.
"But it's bed-time," said the mother.

She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.

"Let Mr. Severn undress me," said the child, hugging close to the young man, who had come to lodge with her parents when she was scarce a month old.

"You're in high favour to-night," said the mother to Severn. He laughed, and all three stood a moment watching the trains pass and repass in the sky beyond the garden-end. Then they went indoors, and Severn undressed the child.

She was a beautiful girl, a bacchanal with her wild, dull-gold hair tossing about like a loose chaplet, her hazel eyes shining daringly, her small, spaced teeth glistening in little passions of laughter within her red, small mouth. The young man loved her. She was such a little bright wave of wilfulness, so abandoned to her impulses, so white and smooth as she lay at rest, so startling as she flashed her naked limbs about. But she was growing too old for a young man to undress.

She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment: she did not want to go to bed. But Severn made her repeat a Pater Noster. She lisped over the Latin, and Mrs. Thomas, listening, flushed with pleasure; although she was a Protestant, and although she deplored the unbelief of Severn, who had been a Catholic.

The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.

"Kiss me," said Severn to the child.

He raised his face as he sat in the rocking-chair. The mother stood beside, looking down at him, and holding the laughing rogue of a baby against her breast. The man's face was uptilted, his heavy brows set back from the laughing tenderness of his eyes, which looked dark, because the pupil was dilated. He pursed up his handsome mouth, his thick close-cut moustache roused.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

"No, no," he laughed, in low strangled tones. "No dog-lick, my dear, oh no!"

The baby chuckled with glee, gave one wicked jerk of laughter, that came out like a bubble escaping.

He put up his mouth again, and again his face was horizontal below the face of the young mother. She looked down on him as if by a kind of fascination.

"Kiss me, then," he said with thick throat.

The mother lowered the baby. She felt scarcely sure of her balance. Again the child, when near to his face, darted out her tongue to lick him. He swiftly averted his face, laughing in his throat.

Mrs. Thomas turned her face aside; she would see no more.

"Come then," she said to the child. "If you won't kiss Mr. Severn nicely--"

The child laughed over the mother's shoulder like a squirrel crouched there. She was carried to bed.

Note: we can probably comment on this fairly quickly and then move on; since we did comment on some of it already.

Quark

06-08-2008, 12:11 AM

I don't think it is sexual tension either.

Once more, the wildness of Mary in emphasized. She's young and innocent and knows nothing of sin or of how religion can divide people.

No, I don't think there's sexual tension between them, but at the same I don't believe Mary is innocent. There is tension and conflict between the two of them. Severn wants affection from the girl, but Mary merely wants to play with the older man. The bachanal allusion helps characterize Mary as a pleasure-seeker, but her actions do so more. She demands to be swung and then teases Severn when he wants a kiss. I think we were right when we called her a temptress and tease before. It's just that she's toying with affections and not sexuality.

Quark

06-08-2008, 12:28 AM

Is he really hesistant? He seems pretty strongly drawn to her. Lawrence says that Severn loved her willfulness and impulsiveness. These are the qualities that Severn lacks, and so he finds them attractive in the child. I suppose Severn making Mary repeat a Pater Noster shows that he has some qualms about this, but he's never actually hesitates.

Quark

06-08-2008, 12:38 AM

Yes, repulsed was a poor word, so I edited my post.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't interpret this passage to be sexual at all. Severn isn't bothered by her nudity. He's put off by her wildness which he's trying to civilize. Mary isn't Eve. She's a heathen, and she's even called by heathen Greek names like Dryad and Bachanal. Severn, on the other hand, is the overly-educated, civilized man who finds her spirit both attractive and worrisome.

Janine

06-08-2008, 11:36 PM

Are we ready to move on to a new part of the text?

I have been absent today, because my new granddaughter came to visit her grandma and greatgrandma and great-aunt, for the very first time. Our visit was simply wonderful and now I am in seventh heaven. She is adorable and I love her so much - words can't even describe this feeling I have when I see her again. I got to feed her a bottle and she is darling. This is one happy grannie!

I will post the text tomorrow, if you all give me the go-ahead. Sorry to slack off today; but I am happy I did so. My granddaughter has to come first!

Dark Muse

06-09-2008, 12:42 AM

Let me just say a few words on the next section, sense I missed when it was first posted.

Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.

I find the mention of the dark doorway here interesting, with Mrs. Thomas, sort of looming there watching, as what goes on in the house ends up being far less pleasent and carefree than the garden scene outside. Mrs. Thomas does sort of cast a shadow over everyone.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"

I do find it interesting that the interactions between Severn and the child are tinged with the suggestion of violence intermingled in thier affection and thier play.

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.

But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.

She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.

Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.

He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting here

Virgil

06-09-2008, 08:39 AM

Ok I concede. Based on the definition above there is no sexual tension. There must be another word then for what I mean. :confused:

Ok, after thinking about what I mean about the sexual inference between Severn and the child, and since sexual tension turns out to be the incorrect term, I'm going to have to settle for sexual undercurrent as for what I think Lawrence is implying. While I don't think it's a conscious element to Severn or the child, i do think Lawrence is putting this undercurrent into the text. There are just too many sexual references to completely think that everything on a subconscious level is innocent. I think the same may be said between him and Kate, though it's not as prominant, if at all, there. At least that's my opinion and reading. I think you guys will mostly disagree with it.

I completely agree with those that mention the garden scene as a sort of playing in the garden of eden. I had not thought of that at all when i first read the story and I do think it fits well.

I do find it interesting that the interactions between Severn and the child are tinged with the suggestion of violence intermingled in thier affection and thier play.

Yes, this was what caught my eye in my readings. What occurs is a sort of mock fight, which parallels the climatic real fight at the end.

He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.

He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.
The action here is very similar to the fight action, only of course there is a slant to it. It's not a fight but a mock fight.

Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.
Well, perhaps. I don't know. There is a danger of pushing the allegory too far. I don't think at its heart this is an allegorical story.

He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.

I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.
I found that interesting too. I don't see this part of the characterization have any direct influence to the plot. What troubles of his become relavant? I don't see any. But it does show a relatively immature man, someone not fully capable of expressing himself. And I guess that does figure into the plot somewhat because it seems people do misinterpret his jocular quips, especially Mr. Thomas who figures Severn dropped the weight on him on purpose..

He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting here
He does become dangerous at the end. ;)

Virgil

06-09-2008, 09:23 AM

I think, for awhile, only I thought it was a "Garden of Eden" scene, with Mary as an Eve-in-the-making. I'm glad to see others coming around. :)

I still don't see any sexual undertones in the scene with Mary. Perhaps I need someone to hit me over the head with the book. LOL I see it more as total innocence like there was before the fall, before Eve ate the apple. They can play around, but it doesn't end in a fight because this is the garden before the fall.

You may be right about it being innocent. Perhaps the point is a pre-fall innocence. But that does imply the undercurrent is there. It's how we interpret the undercurrent I guess is the issue. I think you guys have convinced me it's innocent and therefore your interpretation holds. ;) See, who says I'm stubborn and never change my mind? :p

I see the apple figuratively in this story as the fight Mrs. Severn seems to deliberately provoke, but that's getting ahead.
Hmm, it had not occured to me that an "apple" was implied in the story. Again I try not to read too allegorically. Let's look at it when we get there.

Dark Muse

06-09-2008, 10:49 AM

So, Edward knows sorrow. I wonder if that's because of Kate leaving? They didn't seem that close to me. Edward's sorrow is something Lawrence never shows us, at any rate.

I did not take that to mean Kate leaving, but that he had known some Sorrow in his past, or that perhaps he was unhappy for some reason. As we do not know what brought him to live with this family, but being that he is bording with them, it seems he unable to support himself though he is shown to be intelligent latter on.

Virgil

06-09-2008, 12:22 PM

I don't like to read allegorically, either. I don't think Lawrence wrote allegories, but I'm no expert on Lawrence, as everyone here knows. I do think he was highly symbolic, though. For example, flowers are always chosen for a certain reason, which is something I usually do myself, unless the "proper" flower can't be used. You can't have a field of sunflowers in the very early spring, for example. Those are a summer flower. Just going back to the red anemones in "The Witch a la Mode," I think Coutts was surprised to see them because they were red and red signifies passion. I think that showed he and Winifred had a "chaste" passion previously. Or just an attraction.

In this story, I think yellow flowers are used so often because they signify happiness and a positive future. The child points to marigolds, and in the garden one can see a "golden-lighted train." Even Mary, the child, has "dull-gold" hair.

I had not noticed the flowers at all. I need to re-read the story. I've been focused on the sexuality and the fighting.

I do have to wonder about all the anger in the story. Even Mary is described as "eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment" because she did not want to go to bed. Well, I guess that's normal for a child of three. Mary's thought processes seems very precocious for a child of three. Or maybe I was just very innocent for a longer period of time.
I think Mr Thomas is also seen biting into bread and butter and I'm not sure if his bites are savage, but it could be implied. I don't have my book handy right now.

I think the story might be called "The Old Adam" because it shows any man (helpless creatures all the way back to Adam, the "old" Adam) can be led into temptation. I don't know. I don't feel as sure about that. LOL
I haven't made up my mind on it completely. I think Lawrence is after that layer of pre-civilization in man. Are we sure it's Severn who is the old Adam or is it thomas? Or both?

Janine

06-09-2008, 02:26 PM

Hello Everyone It is me, again! Seems I thought about posting more text; then bingo - about 6 or more new posts came in concerning this present text. Ok, so rather then feel bogged down myself responding to each and every one of those, I simply read them all and pretty much agree with the conclusions you all came up with and I think now basically, we all agree.

I too do not see the scene with Severn and the little child as sexual; I think everything mentioned is quite natural to a 3 yr old. They can be very precocious and a little naughtly at times and they can be argumentive at that age and stubborn; especially about going to bed; I did not see anything that unusual or deviant about her behavior, only perhaps the licking kiss, which also was just a smarty kind of gesture that some kids will pull; it is not that unusual. I think Severn, if anything knew it was not nice as seen from the adult perspective and so he discouraged the child from continuing. He could think she was imitating adults and thus shedding her babyhood and her pure innocense, also. But 'sexual tension' between them? This I do not see at all; so everyone can 'hit me over the head with a book', as Antiquarian said.

I also have an opinion on the sorrow part. I don't think it has a thing to do with Kate. They were not involved at all, I don't see how they could have been. It is not indicated or even implied in the story. I think, that since Lawrence wrote this story at a time he was feeling a lot of personal sorrow in his own life he is speaking about Severn's past sorrows, which we are never allowed assess to in this story. Sorrow is just a general term here to group any sorrows he may have felt in the past, such as Lawrence had experienced himself not long before this story took form in his mind.

Other than that I think all of you have good ideas on this story and I fairly agree with most of what you all have said and expounded on or changed through the course of the discussion so far. I like the undercurrents of suggestion of things to come later on; but I do think we need to stop ourselves from going too far into analysising every tiny bit and turning things into allegory that just are not quite developed as such. This is an early Lawrence work, afterall.
I also am ambiguous about the title and just who that applies to. I tend to think of it as both men at the end of the story; but we can wait till that part and explore the idea more indepth.

So, I guess it would be a good time now to post more text and move on. I really can't think of anything more to add to this part; can any of you? When you all give me the word I will post the next part of the text.

Dark Muse

06-09-2008, 02:41 PM

Yes, I am ready now for the next part of the text if everyone else is

Janine

06-09-2008, 03:29 PM

DM, why are you being so agreeable?:lol: It's kind of frightening to me. Anyway, thanks for saying we can progress; I would think everyone else is ready as well so I will post it now:
Yay - I want to move on, so we can progress with the main interaction between the adults. The portion below is just of Severn and Mrs. Thomas alone in the room.

The Next Part of the Text

It was still not quite dark; the clouds had opened slightly. The young man flung himself into an arm-chair, with a volume of French verse. He read one lyric, then he lay still.

"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

She did not understand. There was a peculiar silence.

"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

There was silence again.

"It's lightning," he said at last.
"Where?" she asked, with a suddenness that surprised him. She turned, met his eyes for a second. He sank his head, abashed.
"Over there in the north-east," he said, keeping his face from her. She watched his hand rather than the sky.
"Oh," she said uninterestedly.
"The storm will wheel round, you'll see," he said.
"I hope it wheels the other way, then."
"Well, it won't. You don't like lightning, do you? You'd even have to take refuge with Kate if I weren't here."
She laughed quietly at his irony.
"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."
"Well, as he won't be urgently required, we'll acquit him, eh?"

At that moment a white flash fell across the blackness. They looked at each other, laughing. The thunder came broken and hesitatingly.
"I think we'll shut the door," said Mrs. Thomas, in normal, sufficiently distant tones. A strong woman, she locked and bolted the stiff fastenings easily. Severn pressed on the light. Mrs. Thomas noticed the untidiness of the room. She rang, and presently Kate appeared.

Interesting to note: there is the mention of two flowers in this section and they both seem to have significance to me - the red poppies again and flags or iris'. Lawrence knew and loved his flowers and plants! It is one aspect of L's writing I truly enjoy.

He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

Interesting, that the iris are yellow and the poppies are, not merely decribed as red or scarlet, but 'gold-scarlet', isn't it Antiquarian? You picked up on these yellow/gold references and their significance before. Also, I would say the gold/yellow would relate directly to the sun. The sun to L, was always a good thing.

This passage with the light and dark, being mentioned often, is also a good indication of opposites and contrast. It may also mimic the oncoming scene with the two men so much in contrast; Severn the light figure and the husband the dark figure. Then the very fight itself, is forshadowed here, in the flashes of the lightening and the contrast of light and darkness. Also, the very nature of lightening/thunder storms evoke a kind of hostility and agressiveness. As with Severn who is normally low key, will also express pent up hostility (as the storms electricity discharges it's energy) near the end of the story.

I will leave the rest up to all of your. I don't have time for futher comments now. I have to get ready to go out.

Quark

06-09-2008, 03:38 PM

The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

Dark Muse

06-09-2008, 03:56 PM

"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be moking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

Pensive

06-09-2008, 04:44 PM

"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

Janine

06-09-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote by Quark

The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

Who says? :lol: I am just kidding with you, Quark! Well, it might be one idea, but I am not sure about it. Seemed interesting to me at first but now I wonder how the stitching relates to her husband. Can you explain just what you are thinking on that score?

Quote by Dark Muse

Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

Good observation. I thought she was also and seemed to me that Severn was rather in her favor in this way. She seemed to like to mother him and he liked it as well.

I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

As Antiquarian has pointed out that is the old-fashioned name for an iris. My mother used to call them flags all the time; my grandmother did as well.

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

Well 'carnal' means: 1. of the flesh; material; worldly. 2. sensual. Pair that up with the words peculiar and brutal and I am not sure what to think accept that carnal can be base and brutal at times I suppose. I do think this foreshadows the events to happen in the house this evening.

Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

Quote by Pensive

Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

Hi Pensive, good to see you here again. Sorry you are puzzled. I do think Mrs. Thomas is implying sarcasm quite a bit in this conversation between Severn and herself. I don't think we will ever know what kind of things; I doubt they are very serious, probably just petty things that people living in close proximity run up against all the time. We may end up pondering much about Severn, because the story is a short one and doesn't provide much information about him to us; only what is truly necessary to the plot and the interaction of the characters.

Quotes by Antiquarian

A "flag" is just an old-fashioned word for an iris. They are one and the same, though some people called wild iris only flags. Obviously, in this story they're referring to yellow iris, and the poppies are gold-scarlet, so we're still dealing with yellow/gold flowers, though all the poppies I've seen are scarlet. No, come to think of it, I've seen pink ones. I guess they come in many colors, like iris. Scarlet flowers are coming into play now, too, and red signifies passion.

Yellow iris are a bit unusual, aren't they? Maybe they are more abundant in England and maybe they smell there stronger than they do here. I will have to check that out and see if they do indeed have any odor. I think mine are done blooming now. I think poppies can indeed come in various colors but here he does say they are scarlet-gold; interesting. Yes, the scarlet flowers do seem to suggest passion to Lawrence and would apply to this story. They only hint at passion that could exist if unguarded or acted upon by Mrs. Thomas or Severn.

But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

Antiquarian, I think that is foreshadowing but I don't know why the yellow color either.

Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.

I would agree with that. Seems like a reasonable explaination.

"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

Thanks for breaking this down sentence by sentence, Anti; that is pretty much how I view it, also. I don't know how sad Edward is though. I don't think he is happy she is leaving but not torn appart by it either. I think Mrs. Thomas has a very sardonic way of speaking. She is being kind of snide in my opinion.

I supposed the approaching thunderstorm presages the fight to come, but right now, Edward makes the observation that it's still a ways off. And Gertie makes a point of saying that Mr. Thomas is never home when he's wanted. She doesn't say needed, but wanted.

True, she does make a point of his not being home and she does use the work 'wanted' and not needed. Yes, the thunderstorm does suggest the human conflict to come. That builts, just like the approaching storm.

Did you notice how the boys are missing again? All four of us women (the faithful) have posted but where are the men? They are such slowpokes all the time. They are, no doubt absorbed in the Aeneid or some other thread. After they post some comments I will post more of the story - keep it moving right along....

Wait, I take it back, Quark did post a few lines but where is our tried and true L fan, our beloved Virgil?

Dark Muse

06-09-2008, 10:51 PM

I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

Also when he says

"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.

He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

Janine

06-10-2008, 12:05 AM

To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

Well, of the two I think the first might fit her but not the second. Where exactly did you get this definition? I could not find it in my dictionary, but forgot to look online. I get the sense that Kate might be headstrong or fiesty, but not of a 'violent temper'; after all she plays reverie when she breaks up the fight with Severn and Thomas.

He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

This part might be true, but I still find fault with that word 'mock'. It really seems to overstate the case for me. I looked the word up in the dictionary online, as a verb:

Main Entry:
1mock
Pronunciation:
\ˈmäk, ˈmȯk\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English, from moker
Date:
15th century
transitive verb1: to treat with contempt or ridicule : DERIDE2: to disappoint the hopes of3: DEFY, CHALLENGE4 a: to imitate (as a mannerism) closely : MIMIC b: to mimic in sport or derisionintransitive verb

Then I looked up 'ridicule' as a verb:

Main Entry:
2ridicule
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
ridiculed; ridicul•ing
Date:
circa 1700
: to make fun of
— rid•i•cul•er noun
synonyms RIDICULE, DERIDE, MOCK, TAUNT mean to make an object of laughter of. RIDICULE implies a deliberate often malicious belittling <consistently ridiculed everything she said>. DERIDE suggests contemptuous and often bitter ridicule <derided their efforts to start their own business>. MOCK implies scorn often ironically expressed as by mimicry or sham deference <youngsters began to mock the helpless wino>. TAUNT suggests jeeringly provoking insult or challenge <hometown fans taunted the visiting team>.

I don't get the sense of ridicule here or of mocking; I get more a sense of discussing and criticising, but not mocking her. There is some sarcasm, but I don't think that adds up to mocking either.

Dark Muse

06-10-2008, 12:14 AM

I found my definition in my old websters dictionary

Janine

06-10-2008, 12:28 AM

And I always thought it was just a slang type expression.

I looked online, but could not come up with anything except 'cream of tartar' -you should know about that Antiquarian, having attended cooking school. :lol:

My mother used to use the expression all the time. The way she used it it was not really mocking, more like poking fun or stating the person was a bit precocious or difficult to get along with. From what I have seen so far in the story, concerning the temperment of Mrs. Thomas, I think she is the one who would be hard to get along with. I see her more as the tartar. It is kind of ironic.

Virgil

06-10-2008, 07:39 AM

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

That is a rather unusual way to describe flowers or even just the aroma of flowers, but i do think, like others have mentioned, that it presages thigs to come.

But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

I don't recall smelling irises, so i can't say. But I remember from Odor of the Chysanthums that Mums from my experience also don't give off any scent. But the story is based on it. I don't know if they're just different in England.

Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.
Now I hope people will agree with me and see the sexual tension between Severn and Gertie. Do you think Gertie is letting Kate go because she feels jealous of Severn or Mr. Thomas?

"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

I like that kind of analysis too. Very good Anti. As to whether mock is too strong a word, perhpas tease is more accurate.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

I think that's what's meant by the word. Kate seems like a passionate person who could be Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :p :lol:

Dark Muse

06-10-2008, 10:47 AM

When they are alone together with the storm raging outside, it says that they were no longer afraid of the storm but of each other, and Severn is thinking:

There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But that idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on sonconcsiously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his concious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

Here he seems to clearly express some sort of physcial desire towrd Mrs. Thomas, only his thinking mind refuses to give into it, and he resists the temptation, but he is tempeted by her.

Dark Muse

06-10-2008, 11:04 AM

I was just using a quote from the text to illustarte what I think is an example of sexual tension within the story between Severn and Mrs. Thomas.

It is hard to effectively discuss ideas within a story if one can only go in chronolgicial order without using context within the story from elsewhere to help support a point.

Janine

06-10-2008, 03:36 PM

Edit - How did those quotes get in my post? I don't even know how to put two in or I would have done so. LOL As I've said, I do see some sexual tension later, but not quite yet, so I'm not being quite as disagreeable as I might have first appeared. LOL

Antiquarian, Those quotes go in automatically, when you click on someone's post to respond. Those are from Dark Muse. This brings up a good point. I have been reading the posts, sort of taking a backseat this time to see what progresses; and to be honest with you all, I see a lot of going around in circles. I really can't get into all this debating and what seems to me at times as bickering or nitpicking about the tiny details, because to be honest again, I find that usually I can't make sense out of it all, when the posts keeps changing so rapidly, along with individuals opinions. I wish I could. I probably need to just copy out posts and take them offline and take what I wish to respond to. I think that Quark made mention of this in the other thread. He said he only responded to a few from each person.

Anyway, it would be helpful, Antiquarian, if you could use the quote system when you are posting. I have the worst time reading your posts, I have to be honest with you, because everything seems to run together - italics are hard for me to see and read since I have bifocals (you know, getting old); I actually take my glasses off and sit close to read the screen. If you don't know how to do the quotes, maybe ask Logos or Scher. I can help, also. I really do wish to read your posts and not get confused. I know you have some good things to add.

I guess I am really tired out and a little crouchy myself today. I just read all the posts and before I post the next section of the text, I would like to look up a few things in my books and post some ideas on what I find or what I think at this point; this might give you all further insight into the story; since these characters were based on some true people in Lawrence's young life and a family he lived with. I do tend to go with Virgil and DM on the idea that there is sexual tension exisiting between Gertie and Edward as the sit in the room together alone. I will explain later on. Everyone keeps giving their opinions on this idea, but I don't see a lot of backup. I did see that DM posted some of the text and she did indeed, point out phrases that indicated 'sexual tension' or at least 'attraction'. I think it is always good to quote the text to backup an opinion. As we have seen in the past, so many times even words or phrases are miscontrued. I read somewhere that Lawrence was brutally misunderstood in his time and now scholars look on his work in a whole new light; they are finally beginning to know his true meanings. I believe it. In fact, often texts were so cut down by his publishers that they do indeed lack something to make the meaning totally clear to us. I heard some have been recovered and now they are published as L would have intended them to be read.

I will be back soon to post some idea before we progress on with the next part of the story text.

I am glad to see you here, Virgil. I wondered if you read my post #2294.

Quark

06-10-2008, 05:47 PM

And Mrs. Thomas was sewing, not reading, Quark.

Something in his (Edward Severn's) lithe, vigorous balance, so alert and white, and independent, caused Mrs. Thomas to glance at him from her sewing.

Mrs. Thomas sat at the table, near him, sewing.

Severn listened to the snap of her needle....

I think it would have been a good idea to have the shifting loyalties coincide with sewing and reading, but they don't. At least not yet. Or, maybe Quark meant Mrs. Thomas is baiting Edward when she's sewing and baiting her husband when she's reading. I can see that. Is that what you mean, Quark, because if it is, then I think it holds up. I have to look through the story, but I think so.

I'll explain it better this time. Sometimes when I write these posts I'm doing it in between other things I'm trying to do. I have to speed through some idea that I'm sure really isn't clear and needs much support, but I don't have the time to write a long post. Now that I'm free for a couple hours I can say this a bit better.

First, I should point out that she is reading later on when her husband enters the room. Lawrence sneaks this detail in. It's easy to miss, but it's there. It's also an important signal to the reader of Gertie's allegiance--that's probably a poor word, but I think everyone knows what I mean. Gertie shifts between two activities which correspond to each relationship she has. Initially, before the husband walks into the scene Gertie indicates to Severn that she's uncomfortable with her relationship toward Severn. She has qualms about entertaining another man when she's already married. Lawrence has Gertie stitch to show the wife thinking about her husband. I hope Janine doesn't mind, but to make this point I have to post a section of the story. Here's the part with her stitching:

She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he. He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

Not only does Lawrence connect the sewing with Gertie's marrital thoughts, but the action itself has long been considered a symbol for faithfulness and domesticity (think of Penelope at the loom in the Odyssey).

Eventually, though, the perspective changes. We see the room from the husband's view, and what he sees are two people reading. The reading shows their solidarity against him, and it makes him feel like an outsider.

He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.

"Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

"Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

"I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

"Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

I brought this up because we see Severn reading in the part that Janine quoted.

"Yet all the storms are a fair way off. Not one near enough to touch us."

I certainly don't see that as sexual tension, but as foreshadowing of the fight to come.

That is foreshadowing for the fight. Also, we should remember that there are two storms. One for Severn and the husband, and the other is for Gertie and Kate.

Janine

06-10-2008, 05:55 PM

Antiquarian,
To use quotes just do the following: place the word quote between two of these brackets [ ] preceeding the quoted text and /quote in the same brackets at the end of the quote (to end it). In the advanced menu, there is an icon at the top, that will do this for you automatically, if you first highlight the text you want quoted and then click on that icon. The icon looks like a piece of paper with writing on it. On my screen it is the one next to the envelop and the #. Now if you want to quote several people, you can copy and past their words right from their post; if you scroll down from this window (advanced) you will see their posts (from this page only.) If you have to go back to another page, then you have to copy and past into an offline word program and transport later, back to this window. I do that all the time. Then after, copying you just add the quote in brackets at the beginning and the end or use the icon in the menu (that makes it faster and easier).

This applies to Everyone: If you want to argue your case, you should back it up with text or even commentary. If you just want to bicker and disagree all the time, there is a big difference; look up the definitions online and you will see what I am getting at. Not long ago, Virgil said maybe we should just stick to one post for each individual opinion or argument on a point. That might be a good idea. We don't all have to all agree that there is or isn't sexual tension between Edward and Gertie; this is being too drawn out and keeping us from moving onward with the story. In the end, it is all personal opinion/interpretation; afterall, we are dealing with human beings interpretting other human beings; what would one expect? People are not easy to interpret. Yes, it would be dull, if there was no debate, but the debate does not have to dominate this discussion either; and that is what has been happening lately. It just plain gets tiresome after awhile. It is only the 10th of the month and I think we are pacing well with the text I posted so far. If you want I can post it more quickly. I may post more tonight.

I still do want to post some thoughts on what everyone is referring to as the 'sexual tension' part; but will wait till we get to that part of the text, because I really have not backed up my opinion. If you want to address it further, when we get to that part of the story, that is fine; but to go on about it for 3 or 4 pages is silly, and we won't change opinions, if they are set. The commentator I read, said that this is another example of a story by Lawrence, where there is a rival and three people are involved. I was therefore, assuming he meant the three main characters. I will post more on this later. It is dinnertime. Maybe we are getting hung up on the idea of 'sexual' tension. We could tone that down to say 'attraction', but not true 'sexual' attraction between them. I will have to re-read the text to see if that is more feasible. I am trying to be fair. It is not easy keeping these threads running smoothly.

Scheherazade

06-10-2008, 06:18 PM

To quote more than one messages in your post:

Click the http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif icon on each of the posts you want to quote, it looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field.

I would like to remind everyone that this thread -nor any others on the Forum- is under the sole control of any one person or group. What is more, these discussions are not class lectures: each user is free to post in the manner and pace it suits them (as long as they are not breaking any Forum Rules).

Please do not try to impose your own personal wishes or preferences on others and respect their right to discuss any points they would like to deal with.

If you do not care about any points made, please also feel free to ignore them.

Janine

06-10-2008, 06:23 PM

To quote more than one messages in your post:

Click the http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif icon on each of the posts you want to quote, it looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field.

Scheherazade, my icon does not look like that, exactly. It is more like an piece of yellow paper with a little tail at the bottom and looks like text lines on the surface. Where did you find those icons? Mine is the fourth from the end (right side) at the top of my menu.

Scheherazade

06-10-2008, 06:25 PM

They appear at the right bottom corner of each post (not on the Advanced Reply page).

Janine

06-10-2008, 06:39 PM

They appear at the right bottom corner of each post (not on the Advanced Reply page).

Thanks, I have never noticed that on here. That will be a real time-saver.

Virgil

06-10-2008, 09:04 PM

Now, I suppose I'm being disagreeable, but I don't see sexual tension between Edward and Gertie. I do think she definitely wants to lure him into her trap, and in a way she does, when she gets him to carry down Kate's traveling trunk or box or whatever it is, but I don't see any interest on Edward's part. Just the opposite, in fact.

First of all it's not being disagreeable if you disagree. That's ok. You don't need to apologize.

I got the idea that Gertie was taunting his because Kate had shown an interest in him, but that Edward was interested in neither Kate nor Gertie.

Heck, I admit I could be wrong, but I just don't see it now. Don't feel it when I read the story, either
I think the story is somewhat flawed in that Lawrence is not clear. I frankly see no point to the opening scene when Severn walks in the door, the garden of eden scene, and the sitting room scene. They are all unfocused, though individually well written. There are too many extraneous detals that can lead a reader into a direction but frankly undeveloped. Is there sexual tension? I can see how one can read it and how one cannot. I think Lawrence is to blame. In all fairness to Lawwrence, this story was only published posthumously.

I was just using a quote from the text to illustarte what I think is an example of sexual tension within the story between Severn and Mrs. Thomas.

It is hard to effectively discuss ideas within a story if one can only go in chronolgicial order without using context within the story from elsewhere to help support a point.
I tend to read the story as having sexual tension too. Without the sexual tension it becomes unclear as to why Severn and Mr. Thomas fight. I tend to see the underlying fight as motivated by subconscious conflicts. But is there in the text? Anti may be right. We may be back filling that information. I don't think Lawrence did a good job here.

To me, that's just foreshadowing of the fight that's to come, not indicative of sexual tension of any kind. I don't think this story's sexual at all. Edit: I do see a little sexual tension later, but not in the part we're discussing right now.

Not sexual at all? Hmm, I think at the risk of me seeing phallices everywhere ;) I have to believe there are sexual references.

Virgil and his phallic symbols have influenced people too much. LOL
:lol: :lol: Perhaps I have. :D It must be my old age and how I've sublimated all sorts of desires that I now see in texts. :p :lol:

I've already jumped ahead too much. I'm sorry, Janine. See? I'm nervous and edgy, but feeling no sexual tension. LOL Far from it.
I'm old, what's your excuse. :p What's wrong with pulling in a detail from another part of the story if it helps explain a point on hand? It's ok. I don't ant to get too structured here. It's a discussion.

Edit - How did those quotes get in my post? I don't even know how to put two in or I would have done so. LOL
If you want to quote a post, just hit the post quote at the bottom and it comes up with the post written in your text box already in quotes. Just delete out what is extraneous. If you wish to quote more than one post at a time, then hit the " (italics) on the bottom of the first post and hit the Quote on the second. You can keep hitting the italics to include as many posts as you wish; just click the quote as the final post you wish to include. I hope that made sense. Play around with it Anti, you'll get the hang of it.

I am glad to see you here, Virgil. I wondered if you read my post #2294.
I did read it. There was nothing for me to comment on one way or the other. I'll go back and recheck.

As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.

Janine

06-10-2008, 09:52 PM

As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.

Virgil, I do totally agree with that. There would be no point in the ending of the story. The three main characters, Severn, Mrs. Thomas and Mr. Thomas all make up this triangle and set up this tension of a rival. We have seen this in other stories - even the last we read - in that there were 2 women and one man, even though we only saw one of the woman in the story; we felt the existence of the other - both competing for the man. In "Two Blue Birds" there was a situation of rivals with the two women again, one man. In "The Blind Man" there were two men in rivalry to the wife. Even though that one does not have sexual tension, there is rivalry and at the ending there is a sort of bonding between the two men, more so of course for Maurice than for Bertie.

I have to shut down - thunder and lightening.

Edit:I was able to come back online and am editing now. I am going to post the next part of the text with some comments I made. Hope everyone can add to them.

Next Part of Text:

"Will you clear baby's things away?" she said, in the contemptuous tone of a hostile woman. Without answering, and in her superb, unhastening way, Kate began to gather up the small garments. Both women were aware of the observant, white figure of the man standing on the hearth. Severn balanced with a fine, easy poise, and smiled to himself, exulting a little to see the two women in this state of hostility. Kate moved about with bowed defiant head. Severn watched her curiously; he could not understand her. And she was leaving to-morrow. When she had gone out of the room, he remained still standing, thinking. Something in his lithe, vigorous balance, so alert, and white, and independent, caused Mrs. Thomas to glance at him from her sewing.

I find these two decriptive phrases of interest - to describe Kate - (silently) she had a “superb, unhastening way”, and this one to describe Mrs. Thomas -speaking with the “contemptuous tone of a hostile woman” to Kate. Severn is noticed by each of the women, as the “observant, white figure”. Here again, the thought of him as a 'white' figure seems to be quite significant. It is also pointed out that Severn is “exulting a little to see the two woman in this state of hostility.” I was curious about the line “he could not understand her” in reference to Kate and her leaving. Seems when she leaves the room he is still pondering about it. Again his 'whiteness' is noticed, alone now by Mrs.Thomas in that last line, along with his 'independent way, his lithe, alert vigorous balance.'

I’ll let the blinds down," he said, becoming aware that he was attracting attention.

"Thank you," she replied conventionally.

He let the lattice blinds down, then flung himself into his chair.

Here the text points out that he is aware that he is attracting her attention.

Mrs. Thomas sat at the table, near him, sewing. She was a good-looking woman, well made. She sat under the one light that was turned on. The lamp-shade was of red silk lined with yellow. She sat in the warm-gold light. There was established between the two a peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break. Severn listened to the snap of her needle, looked from the movement of her hand to the window, where the lightning beat and fluttered through the lattice. The thunder was as yet far off.
Strange that the one light that is turned on is over Mrs. Thomas, also that it is described like the poppies – yellow and red - the poppies were gold-red. I would think this would indicate a relationship between the passion of red and the flowers to Mrs. Thomas; or suggest this idea. It goes on to saying it is a “warm-gold light”. Now between the two in the room is a “peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break”. Kind of like the suspense of the impending storm and the tension that imparts to the scene.

"Look," he said, "at the lightning."

Mrs. Thomas started at the sound of his voice, and some of the colour went from her face. She turned to the window.

There, between the cracks of the Venetian blinds, came the white flare of lightning, then the dark. Several storms were in the sky. Scarcely had one sudden glare fluttered and palpitated out, than another covered the window with white. It dropped, and another flew up, beat like a moth for a moment, then vanished. Thunder met and overlapped; two battles were fought together in the sky.

Why is the color going from her face and why did she start at his voice? Was it only the thought of the storm or more than that? I also noticed that snap of her sewing; that too seems to indicate something like the click in the oil lamp did in the last story. Maybe the snap is something like the far off thunder; a hint of something to come; it is just a thought on my part.

I like the contrast of the lightening to the darkness. I also, love the way the two storms are described, or several storms, and the 'overlapping' in the last line, which indicates 'two battles', mimicking the two battles in the house and their overlapping. That is brilliantly done/written. I like thunderstorms and the tension they impart, but if not too severe. One has to admit they hold a certain curiousity and an energy and are sometimes very beautiful; like untamed nature and furry.

Interesting also, is the line "another covered the window with white"...again white seems to be emphasised; I wonder if Severn, being seen so 'white', is like the lightening and will be so, when his temper finally flairs and he fights back at the husband. It is like the energy of a storm being released in that moment of the confrontation that will come; like lightening which is electricity being discharged. Also, as in "The Prussian Officer" there was a 'snap' or 'click' and then the violent action occured. This is why I thought of that snap of Mrs. Thomas' sewing and thought it might relate later to the fact that Severn himself snaps and looses control.

Dark Muse

06-11-2008, 11:45 AM

I find these two decriptive phrases of interest - to describe Kate - (silently) she had a “superb, unhastening way”, and this one to describe Mrs. Thomas -speaking with the “contemptuous tone of a hostile woman” to Kate. Severn is noticed by each of the women, as the “observant, white figure”. Here again, the thought of him as a 'white' figure seems to be quite significant. It is also pointed out that Severn is “exulting a little to see the two woman in this state of hostility.” I was curious about the line “he could not understand her” in reference to Kate and her leaving. Seems when she leaves the room he is still pondering about it. Again his 'whiteness' is noticed, alone now by Mrs.Thomas in that last line, along with his 'independent way, his lithe, alert vigorous balance.'

Me and Virgil have already sort of touched upon this, but I felt this scene between the two women was a sort of minor reflection on what is later to occur with Severn and Mr. Thomas. I think it is also an indication of Mrs. Thomas's jealously. In the presence of Severn the two women act hostile too each other, while it points how aware of his presence the women were.

I think perhaps in part Severn does not understand just why Kate is acting in such a stubborn way, when she knows that such is going to cost her job. And perhaps he just does not understand the reasons behind her behavior.

Strange that the one light that is turned on is over Mrs. Thomas, also that it is described like the poppies – yellow and red - the poppies were gold-red. I would think this would indicate a relationship between the passion of red and the flowers to Mrs. Thomas; or suggest this idea. It goes on to saying it is a “warm-gold light”. Now between the two in the room is a “peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break”. Kind of like the suspense of the impending storm and the tension that imparts to the scene.

I think perhpas the light is turned upon her, to sort of put her in the spot light, as her figure is such a central figure, she seems to affect everything and everyone in the house, as in thier own way they all just sort of revolve around her. Her very pressence is enough to change the way others react to each other or to her.

Yes I think the red is meant to signify passion.

There was established between the two a peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break.

This line does seem to signify that there is a tauntness within the air, that is just ready to snap at any moment and release itself.

Severn listened to the snap of her needle, looked from the movement of her hand to the window, where the lightning beat and fluttered through the lattice. The thunder was as yet far off.

I found this to be an odd description of the storm, as I do not know I can say I have ever found lignting to "flutter" Even through blinds, it usually comes in a flash. As well that idea of "fluttering" which is a gentle, graceful motion seems completely oppsisite to everything else within the story.

I wondered if there is menat to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

It also seemed to me as if Severn was almost tuanting Mrs. Thomas in a way, as he constnatly keeps trying to draw her attention to the storm and telling her to look, when he knows she does not like it.

Why is the color going from her face and why did she start at his voice? Was it only the thought of the storm or more than that? I also noticed that snap of her sewing; that too seems to indicate something like the click in the oil lamp did in the last story. Maybe the snap is something like the far off thunder; a hint of something to come; it is just a thought on my part.

I thought it was becasue of the storm as well as perhaps she was startled to suddnely have that silence between them to be broken.

There, between the cracks of the Venetian blinds, came the white flare of lightning, then the dark. Several storms were in the sky. Scarcely had one sudden glare fluttered and palpitated out, than another covered the window with white. It dropped, and another flew up, beat like a moth for a moment, then vanished. Thunder met and overlapped; two battles were fought together in the sky.

I loved this passage. I find it interesting, that above it said the lightening was "fluttering" but now here it comes as a flare. I felt that the "several storms in the sky" were also the many different conflicts within the house, as really within the house no one is completely happy wich each other, and all of the characters have little conflicts among them.

With the rising power of the storm it also seems to be indicating that someting is about ready to just break, and unlesash itself. Things are building up to the point of climax, where something will have to give.

Quark

06-11-2008, 03:54 PM

I wondered if there is menat to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

I think there is. It scares the wife because it's a reminder her that her husband is about to come home and there will be a confrontation. The needlework is a similar symbol meant to indicate that she's thinking about her husband.

I don't find the story at all well crafted.

Is there sexual tension? I can see how one can read it and how one cannot. I think Lawrence is to blame. In all fairness to Lawwrence, this story was only published posthumously.

You guys are funny. Lawrence is being subtle, and that's the only way he could write about their relationship. If he gave it away and told us unequivocally whether Severn and Gertie wanted an affair, then the reader would have to take sides during the dispute at the end. It would become a matter of choosing between marriage and infidelity. Instead, Lawrence blurs their relationship and makes it about the characters' vague longings versus the husband's harsh uprightness. I think this is why Lawrence doesn't just come out and tell you what's going on between Gertie and Severn.

Oh, and Janine I wanted to repeat your question about Severn's white outline. Why does Lawrence draw so much attention to Severn's shirt?

Quark

06-11-2008, 04:24 PM

Lawrence is telling us too much. He's giving us too much information. He's being heavy-handed in this story.

Wait, what? Didn't you just post this:

While I don't see any real sexual tension in the story, I do think there's supposed to be sexual tension. I suppose, as an editor, I'm a more demanding reader than most people are.

That made it sound like you were criticizing Lawrence for not making their relationship clear.

Janine

06-11-2008, 04:46 PM

Me and Virgil have already sort of touched upon this, but I felt this scene between the two women was a sort of minor reflection on what is later to occur with Severn and Mr. Thomas. I think it is also an indication of Mrs. Thomas's jealously. In the presence of Severn the two women act hostile too each other, while it points how aware of his presence the women were.

I agree, Dark Muse. This also matches up to ideas, I just read about rivalry in these early stories; also about Lawrence and unacted on passions. I will have to post some more information on that later on since I am going out soon. I checked out several biography books that mention this story and the family Lawrence lived with in Croydon and used as the model for the story. One part clearly shows Lawrence's feelings for the two children but mostly for the baby featured in this story and the account is totally innocent and sweet. He wrote two sweet stories about babies and he loved these kids to death.

I think perhaps in part Severn does not understand just why Kate is acting in such a stubborn way, when she knows that such is going to cost her job. And perhaps he just does not understand the reasons behind her behavior.

That sounds logical to me.

I think perhaps the light is turned upon her, to sort of put her in the spot light, as her figure is such a central figure, she seems to affect everything and everyone in the house, as in thier own way they all just sort of revolve around her. Her very pressence is enough to change the way others react to each other or to her.

I agree - it puts her in the center of the two conflicts. This is a good comment on your part and observation. The light and the color is an interesting device to use at this particular time in the story with the flashing/flickering white light on the blinds just suggesting the coming storms.

Yes I think the red is meant to signify passion.

I do, too. And 'passion' comes in many forms and disquises and one need to determine his own idea of just what passion signifies.

This line does seem to signify that there is a tauntness within the air, that is just ready to snap at any moment and release itself.

I agree. Did you read "The Prussian Officer" , DM? Often Michael Black brings up that 'click' that occurs in that story, just prior to the outbreak of aggression or violence.

I found this to be an odd description of the storm, as I do not know I can say I have ever found lignting to "flutter" Even through blinds, it usually comes in a flash. As well that idea of "fluttering" which is a gentle, graceful motion seems completely oppsisite to everything else within the story.

I think it is perceived as a flutter because there are several storms so the lightening is overlapping. I have seen this happen before. Perhaps L is indicating that the storms approaching are gentle and graceful at first. It is later the real furry erupts as in the story.

I wondered if there is meant to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

I think that is possible also, if heard far off.

It also seemed to me as if Severn was almost tuanting Mrs. Thomas in a way, as he constnatly keeps trying to draw her attention to the storm and telling her to look, when he knows she does not like it.

Teasing or taunting her playfully. It is like someone teasing about being afraid of a spider. I don't think he means it in a mean way at all. It indeed does draw attention to the storm, also foreshadowing the coming storm between the two men.

I thought it was because of the storm as well as perhaps she was startled to suddnely have that silence between them to be broken.

True - it could be part of each.

I loved this passage. I find it interesting, that above it said the lightening was "fluttering" but now here it comes as a flare. I felt that the "several storms in the sky" were also the many different conflicts within the house, as really within the house no one is completely happy wich each other, and all of the characters have little conflicts among them.

I loved that passage, too. Good observation, DM, and I think that is correct. It is true that no one seems truly happy; perhaps only the little child.

With the rising power of the storm it also seems to be indicating that someting is about ready to just break, and unlesash itself. Things are building up to the point of climax, where something will have to give.

I think that is correct and I think I said it also in my post, about the same way.

Sorry, I can't answer anymore posts now. I am going out. I am sure I won't be missed; I think I can answer some later on tonight.

I did read all of them; but I skimmed Quarks, sorry Mr. Q. I will have to put bits of Antiquarian's into an offline program, because to be quite honest, I can't make sense of it all without the quotes and with two edits, Anti. I am sorry about that. The bold is distracting as the main body of type - I guess those being your comments. Maybe if you email to a mod, she can help you find out how to solve this posting/quoting problem.
I often just take all posts offline and add my own quotes manually, like this [quote] at the beginning, and the second one, with the addition of the slash in front of the word, - like this /quote, but in brackets.

Quark, I will read your post better later on. Probably by then Virgil will arrive to post some comments, too. Be back later on.

Janine

06-11-2008, 05:08 PM

That's fine with me. I have trouble making sense of posts that use the quote thing so I can see where the opposite would be true. I had a lot of trouble trying to quote one of Virgil's posts this morning, so I don't think I'll use that anymore.

I tend to write like an editor, not a reader, so many people, unless they write or edit, too, have a problem with my posts. Just like the term "set piece" the other day. I probably shouldn't have used that term except in work.

You don't have to answer mine if you're short on time or just don't want to. I won't be offended at all. It's just a casual discussion. I think you should only answer what you want to answer.

I'm going out tonight, too, so I won't be able to check until later.

I didn't say I would not answer it, Antiquarian. Your post was more complicated to answer than DM's and I have always tried to answer all or part of a person's post. I just need the time to place your post into my offline program and sort through what I wish to answer.

That is very true and you have emphasised if often; I don't have the expertise of being an editor or a writer, so I write my posts in a different style perhaps.

I don't even care to be a Lawrence 'scholar', but I have read much about this author; 3 biographies, many of the letters, and many commentaries about his various works and his stories; because that is pleasurable to me. When I don't know something, I try to research it, to find more insight into his intentions/his deeper meanings. That has always been my fascination with this author. To the best of my ability I try to share whatever additional information I find out about the story with all of you.

Enjoy your evening out! Must be cooler there now. It got some bit cooler here.

Dark Muse

06-11-2008, 05:42 PM

I think there is. It scares the wife because it's a reminder her that her husband is about to come home and there will be a confrontation. The needlework is a similar symbol meant to indicate that she's thinking about her husband.

That is a good observation. Part of the tension in the air could relate to the ancipation of the return of Mr. Thomas, and her knowing that his coming will bring a confertation of some sort, as the needle work being a domestic activity and seen as a chore of a "good housewife" could indicate the husband.

Though It seems she really does not need to fear him as it seems she is the one who holds all the control, it could be she does not wish to have to have a confertation.

And though Severn and Mrs. Thomas do not acutally do anything, it could also be that they might feel "caught" at something becasue of the nature of thier thoughts, when he does "walk in on them"

Obviously, Edward and Gertie have never engaged in anything even remotely like a sexual or romantic affair, though the storm and their being shut up together seems to have affected them momentarily, especially Edward. But he doesn't like it. He seems appalled by the very idea.

I felt it was always a bit unclear just why Severn does seem to be so appalled by the idea. I cannot say I honestly felt it was because of any morality he felt in regards to engaging in an unfair, or any sort of fear of disloyalty toward Mr. Thomas. I just do not get that that is his reasoning for resistance.

But I wondered if it is the fact that he truly does not care for the kind of woman Mrs. Thomas is that repulses him at his physical attraction to her, or if in fact the idea of intimacy with women in general is repulsive to him and he is trying to suppress his natural urges.

Janine

06-11-2008, 05:45 PM

That is a good observation. Part of the tension in the air could relate to the ancipation of the return of Mr. Thomas, and her knowing that his coming will bring a confertation of some sort, as the needle work being a domestic activity and seen as a chore of a "good housewife" could indicate the husband.

Though It seems she really does not need to fear him as it seems she is the one who holds all the control, it could be she does not wish to have to have a confertation.

And though Severn and Mrs. Thomas do not acutally do anything, it could also be that they might feel "caught" at something becasue of the nature of thier thoughts, when he does "walk in on them"

I would agree with all those thoughts, Dark Muse. I have to leave now to go out. Good job on both your posts! I will get to others later on.

Virgil

06-11-2008, 09:25 PM

Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.

Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL

:lol: No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights. They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. ;) But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war. :D

Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.
Oh I wish I could show you. It's really not hard. Oh well, whatever is easiest for you.

I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.
Like what? I'm curious.

I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted.
The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.

I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.
The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

[QUOTE=Quark;583583]You guys are funny. Lawrence is being subtle, and that's the only way he could write about their relationship. If he gave it away and told us unequivocally whether Severn and Gertie wanted an affair, then the reader would have to take sides during the dispute at the end. It would become a matter of choosing between marriage and infidelity. Instead, Lawrence blurs their relationship and makes it about the characters' vague longings versus the husband's harsh uprightness. I think this is why Lawrence doesn't just come out and tell you what's going on between Gertie and Severn.
Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.

I have to disagree here. I don't think Lawrence was being subtle at all. Not in this story. I think he's being quite heavy-handed.

This is not subtle:

"Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating his his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other."

(At this point, I agree that they find themselves attracted to each other.)

"He (Severn) was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the dlicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone."

Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.

Obviously, Edward and Gertie have never engaged in anything even remotely like a sexual or romantic affair, though the storm and their being shut up together seems to have affected them momentarily, especially Edward. But he doesn't like it. He seems appalled by the very idea.

I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.

That made it sound like you were criticizing Lawrence for not making their relationship clear.
Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions. ;)

I felt it was always a bit unclear just why Severn does seem to be so appalled by the idea. I cannot say I honestly felt it was because of any morality he felt in regards to engaging in an unfair, or any sort of fear of disloyalty toward Mr. Thomas. I just do not get that that is his reasoning for resistance.

I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck. ;)

But I wondered if it is the fact that he truly does not care for the kind of woman Mrs. Thomas is that repulses him at his physical attraction to her, or if in fact the idea of intimacy with women in general is repulsive to him and he is trying to suppress his natural urges.
Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda. :D

Janine

06-11-2008, 11:04 PM

Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.

Wow, I am lost now. Admittedly, I don't know how to reply to any of this. I am so far behind now I doubt I can catch up. I will just go with the new posts, starting with yours.

:lol: No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights.

:lol: How true, how true! You did not get your name for nothing - the B,M, D one.;)

They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. ;) But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war. :D

I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.';) :lol: I see the sexual tug of war quite clearly myself.

The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.

I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.

The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?

Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.

Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.

Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?

I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.

I don't see any acting on the attraction at all; just thinking of the posibility of it. This is quite reminescent of Lawrence's play "The Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd". A younger male who is close friends with Mrs. Holroyd expresses his own sexual attraction towards her, completely to the surprise of the woman/wife in the story; perhaps subconsicously she realised it before but then it becomes conscious. In this story the opposite seems to be occurring and the male is wondering at the wife's remarks. It is interesting to me how Lawrence reversed that idea.

Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions. ;)

I would say a number of times now; that is partly why I am so confused.

I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck. ;)

Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.

Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda. :D

Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.
Indeed, Mrs. Jones and Mr. Jones were a few years older than Lawrence, when he resided with them in Croydon. They even moved once and Lawrence moved with them. I don't think I ran across any physical description of Mrs. Jones, just that she was the mother of two young girls.

I will try to go back to Antiquarian's now and add on the new one. Also, I think Quark posted something. At least I will read all those.

Janine

06-12-2008, 01:07 AM

Well, Antiquarian, asside from your last two posts, which I did not see until just now; I have been working on this post from the previous page (in my offline program). I really wish to post it; it took me considerable time. I didn't misconstrue your posts at all; I just needed the read them over again and time to answer. I was out most of the evening and got in late. I am aware that I use bold face type at times to accent certain key words or phrases; actually, Virgil began that method, way back in the second or third story.
I didn't mean anything unkind when i said that you could get help from a moderator. I have often asked them for help with formating and other tech problems. The fact, that your text in that one post, contained the failed quoting with a beige background and Virgil's text and then your bold parts (replies) with the difference in the bottom white area, made it very confusing, but I have worked it out offline. I just hope these quotes are correct as to who said what:

Quote by Antiquarian

I feel the story is very flawed, though amusing. Not only is Lawrence ambiguous, but he tells us far too much of the time how someone is thinking. If it's not clear how someone is thinking, then a writer needs to rewrite his work, not tack on an explanation.

You should understand that all the stories we read for this thread cannot be as advanced as “The Horse-Dealer’s Daughter” and “The Witch a la Mode”. That last story was a hard act to follow. I don’t agree that this story is 'very flawed.' If it were, it would have no merit at all. I think it is an early story, just as Lawrence’s book “Sons and Lovers” is an early novel. Both were written around the same time period. Lawrence liked this short story very much and was quite disappointed it was not published when he submitted it, along with others that year he wrote it. Just because it was published later, does not take away it’s value. Many of the finest stories were not published back in that time period, because or censorship and other restricted attitudes. I almost feel this might have been the case with this story or a possibility. Lawrence called it a ‘wicked little story.’ Many of James Joyce’s stories in Dubliners were frowned on by the publishers; many publishers refused to publish them. It took years for him to have his book "Dubliners" published. The reason this story might have been rejected may have been the child licking Severn's face. I can see how that would be very distasteful in that era and very much misunderstood as to the meaning in this story.

I don’t see the unclear quality you are referring to Antiquarian; I don’t see it anymore so, in this story than other Lawrence stories we have read. I read the story several times now and I did not see anything unclear about it or anything more I needed to know to understand the story and especially to comprehend the ending.

"Will you clear baby's things away," she said in the contemptuous tone of a hostile woman."

Contemptuous tone of a hostile woman should be evident, not explained.

Well, since you have the MFA in Creative writing, can you enlighten me as to why? I don’t understand the rule of thumb here.

Quote by ?

I don't know when the story was written, but if it was a very early story, I can understand why it's unfocused and why it was not published during Lawrence's lifetime. Everything in a short story must related to everything else. In this story, it doesn't.

How so? That sounds reasonable, but I fail to see what is not related. I don't see lack of focus either.

Quote by Virgil

I tend to read the story as having sexual tension too. Without the sexual tension it becomes unclear as to why Severn and Mr. Thomas fight. I tend to see the underlying fight as motivated by subconscious conflicts. But is there in the text? Anti may be right. We may be back filling that information. I don't think Lawrence did a good job here.

Quote by Antiquarian

If there's supposed to be sexual tension, I don't think Lawrence did a good job. I just read it as Mrs. Thomas becoming overwrought due to her fear of storms. I do think Edward has a momentary attraction to her, though, that upsets and scares him far more than any storm could. I don't see the fight later as being over the affections of Mrs. Thomas, but over which man is right.

Quote by Virgil

Not sexual at all? Hmm, I think at the risk of me seeing phallices everywhere I have to believe there are sexual references.

I must be the only one thinks Lawrence did do a good job and he subtly set up this scene, with sexual tension, which the storm parellels in it’s own mounting tension, energy/electricity.

Quote by Virgil

:lol:Perhaps I have. It must be my old age and how I've sublimated all sorts of desires that I now see in texts.

Yes, no doubt it is that old age creeping up on your Virgil! :lol: Next senility sets in. You will probably be distorting all kinds of crazy things by then.:lol:

Quote by Antiquarian

Well, you're not old. And I was joking about that, of course, Glad to read you've sublimated those desires, though. LOL

Your are right, Antiquarian, he is not old, just ripe and has an overly active imagination oftimes!

Quote by Virgil

I'm old, what's your excuse. What's wrong with pulling in a detail from another part of the story if it helps explain a point on hand? It's ok. I don't want to get too structured here. It's a discussion.

Nothing that I can see.

I'm a fiction editor, primarily of short stories. That's my excuse. LOL Seriously, because it hasn't happened yet. We can't try to justify what happens on page three with something that doesn't occur until page nine. We can, of course, but the justification doesn't hold up in most cases, especially not in a linear story. I do think Edward becomes momentarily attracted to Gertie, but only momentarily and it's not something I would call sexual tension. Others do, I don't, which is fine, really. But you're right. I'ts just a casual discussion, not a classroom lecture.

I pass….I haven’t the insight and the knowledge of a writer, let along the writing genius of Lawrence. I don’t see the attraction as momentary; undoubtably it has been latent in a subconscious way for sometime. Lawrence is a writer well known for his use of delving into the mind and the individual’s subconscious; especially, when it comes to interaction between man and woman; man and man.

Antiquarian, have you posted any of your short stories yet in your blog? I would like to read some. My library had a volume of William Trevor’s stories, so I took it out today to sample a few. Do you write like Trevor? I will be anxious to read some. I read some of the other Lit Net members stories, including our own Virgil’s. His were quite good; but I like his poetry best.

Quote by Antiquarian

Well, I hope this one turns out right or it's going to look like you're contradicting yourself all over the place, Virgil. LOL As you can see, it didn't turn out right, so I had to put my responses in bold, which I don't like to do.

Yes, and they are overwhelming to me that way; also the bold text feels like you are emphasizing everything (sort of like raising your voice). It helps me to paste it into this Microsoft Word program (offline) and convert the text, but it takes me a long time to do. I hope you can solve the problem eventually. I would think you would have run up against this sort of formatting in editing at your job.

Originally Posted by Virgil

As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.
I agree with what you say here, Virgil; especially with the use of the words “brutal” and “carnal”. I do think some iris have a scent; not that pleasant but a scent – maybe the scent is brutal and carnal, in a primitive sense.[/quote]

Quote by Antiquarian

Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL

Virgil does in some threads! :lol:

Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.

Sorry you had no success. Oh well…

Quotes by Antiquarian

While I don't see any real sexual tension in the story, I do think there's supposed to be sexual tension. I suppose, as an editor, I'm a more demanding reader than most people are. Editors read to find mistakes and I found quite a few surprising ones in this story, though I also found it amusing.

You do seem to be a more demanding reader, than most of us. You seem to expect a lot out of the author, even though at the time he was young and not as experienced, as he was later on. I guess we all could find mistakes in anything, if we looked hard enough for them. I didn’t know that was our task here. As you said before, this is a casual discussion. I take the work for what it is worth. I can’t be that strict or demanding about it and pick apart Lawrence’s writing, work by word. Maybe you could make a list of parts or sentences that annoyed you or you felt were written incorrectly; just to satisfy yourself. I make notes often myself for my own benefit.

I do think the part that says: ...two battles were fought together in the sky is supposed to signify Edward's attraction to Gertie because of her fear and momentary vulnerabilty and Edward's desire not be attracted to Gertie.

I can go with that idea. I think Lawrence mentioned even more than two storms brewing outside. That would make sense to the story actually.

Previously, I had agreed with Quark that the two battles were Edward/Mr. Thomas and Gertie/Kate, but Kate's role is now so extraneous, I believe the two battles are the battle in Edward over his attraction to Mrs. Thomas and his desire not to be attracted. And I do see it as that - a momentary attraction to Mrs. Thomas that he doesn't want to admit to himself, but if others want to call it sexual tension, then I'm not arguing with them. People see things how they see them for many reasons and all are valid. We can't all be right all the time, but all opinions can always be valid.

I agree with this part.

I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.

There probably are many other points besides sexual tension in the story. No one said there weren’t.

Edward enjoys seeing Kate and Gertie at odds. Perhaps he also enjoys seeing Gertie and Joe at odds.

I saw it as being amused at something, he had no power to change. I don’t think for one minute he enjoyed seeing Gertie and Joe at odds with each other; but maybe I'm wrong.

I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted. However, as Virgil mentioned, the story wasn't published during Lawrence's lifetime. If he wouldn't have written some lesser stories he wouldn't be human, and he was certainly human, and he certainly wrote some very finely crafted, superlative stories later in his career.

Disagree with both of you; I do think the story is well-crafted. I defy anyone of us to come up with a story as well crafted as this one. I can’t make that comment, unless I could do better. Yes, he was human and even at an early age many thought of Lawrence as the young genius. His novel “The White Peacock” has many flaws and yet he got his start with that novel; I read it and I overlooked the flaws and found the novel brillant, fascinating. Even early under-developed Lawrence is better than some authors who have remained mediocre. That is exactly true, Lawrence was ‘human’.

Edit - After thinking about it, I see the story as more of a power struggle than a story with sexual tension, though there's no denying that for a few moments, Edward is attracted to Gertie. I think it's Gertie's fear of the approaching storm and he vulnerabilty that set Edward off more than any truly sexual thing, though.

It probably is a power struggle in many ways during the duration of the story; such as between the two women; later, no doubt between the two men. I don’t see a power struggle between Mrs.Thomas and Severn; unless you mean her exerting a power over him in a sexual way, by way of suggestion. I guess there is power struggle between Mr. and Mrs. Thomas at the table.

Quote from story

"She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he....Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing."

Quote by Antiquarian

A look of greeting, at least at first. There had not been sexual tension previously, at least to me, and each is rather horrified that they feel that way now.

Seems that way; but we are not privy to what kind of interaction has taken place before this story begins. On a 'day-to-day' basis perhaps, there was attraction at times, but just in a playful sense; nothing at all serious. I guess then you could say there did not exist sexual tension, until this scene when the two are alone in the room together, prior to the husband returning home late from his meeting.

I don't feel there's real sexual tension, but I do feel Edward is attracted to Gertie because of her vulnerability, a vulnerability which disappears once Mr. Thomas arrives home.

So you think it is merely her vulnerability that he is attracted to? I know by now, that you don’t see any sexual tension in this story. I am not even sure who brought up that phrase. Were you the culprit, Virgil?

I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.

Well, that is fine if that is how you see it; that is your opinion.
I do see the sexual attraction and tension; so therefore, I don’t feel Lawrence failed at the story. He was young and I am cutting him a break perhaps, but I don’t see the story as flawed and if it truly is, I don’t think it is flawed enough to ruin my reading or enjoyment of it personally. I haven’t heard any Lawrence scholars say this particular story is a failure and I have read much about this story, this time period in L’s life and the real story this was based upon; all from different sources.

I am not sure how something can be ‘too ambiguous, too unconnected’. Many of the Chekhov stories, we have been reading, could be acused of the same thing – what about the one we are current discussing? There is much 'ambiguity' in that story and I don’t see where it makes the story a poor work of fictional writing. If anything it makes it fascinating.

Well, I will have to get to your current posts tomorrow. This took me time and now I am going to watch a movie. Tomorrow I can post more of the new text, also; and comment on that briefly. I will be home all day.

Scheherazade

06-12-2008, 05:33 AM

Re. quoting issues:

It would be great if everyone used the "quote" functions while posting because it does help reading the posts. It would make it much easier for anyone reading, especially for us Moderators who read almost every single post in this Forum.

Here is a little "how to" (if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate one of the Moderators):

- To quote a post or a part of it, please type [-quote] at the beginning of a quote and [-/quote] at the end (withour the -). It is very similar to using [i] or function on the forum but replaced with [quote], instead.

- To add the name of the poster to your quote, type [-quote=Username] at the beginning of a quote (without the -).

- To quote more than one post in your reply, click the http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif icon on the right bottom corner of each post you would like to quote. It looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field. Then you can add your comments at the end of each quote, which will be marked with [-/quote] (without the -).

You can practise using these functions in your posts and edit them when/if necessary.

[B]This is a wonderful thread that hosts one of the liveliest and prolonged discussions on the Forum. However, recently its image has been tarnished by personal differences, which is why I am now asking you all to put all these behind or deal with them via PMs. Persistence in similar vein will lead to temporary/permanent thread closure.

Virgil

06-12-2008, 08:15 AM

I agree about the layers of civilization. You've said it well. I don't need to add a thing, except to say that I found it heavy-handed about the carnal scent of the iris as well. Iris don't have much scent. Strange, he did the same thing in "Odour of Chrysanthemums" and they don't have much scent, either. Oh, well. I do agree completely about the central theme of the story. And I agree that being shut up together in the storm, Edward develops an attraction to Gertie. Maybe we're getting hung up on semantics and we shouldn't do that. So, while I don't see sexual tension throughout the story, yes, I see it in that scene.

I do think that what I put in bold in that post is the heart of the story.

Well, if she sounds like Frieda....LOL And you would know, having studied Lawrence. ;)
I'm not claiming that he was basing the character on Frieda. I'm not sure if he had even met Frieda when he wrote this story. I would have to check a timeline. But Mrs Thomas does seem to have a number of similar characteristics with Frieda, including a husband who doesn't pay her much attention.

I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.';) :lol:
:lol: I am not. Let's not give anyone any false impressions.

I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.
My problem is that we have to project too much into the scenes. Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.

Quote:
The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.
Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?
Yes, I just don't think he's as successful in this story. I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.

Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?
Too obvious; he tells too much rather than dramatise. It's probably the only moment in the story where L is heavy handed. Other times he's just too subtle that it becomes vague, as I explanin in the paragraph above. I suspect that as L was writing this, he realized he was being too vague and decided to be heavy handed on this point to make sure.

Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.
Ok.

Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.
I believe you it's not based on Frieda, but there are uncanny similariites. I think it says she's large built but now I'm not sure, but here are a couple of passages that would suggest it:

The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.

Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

Regarding the story being well written or not, I don't care if it's well written or not. It's still amusing and interesting. I've stated that. I've also stated I think Lawrence a superlative writer, especially in the area of the short story.

It is a fun story. That was my first reaction. As we have analysized it to death, I think it's flaws have surfaced, at least for me. Like Janine says, this is a young writer and we should cut him a break. Even at my age now i couldn't write as good as this story is at Lawrence's age. If I came across this story in a current magazine, I would say what a good writer this is. I think we are being a little overly picky, but we are here to disect.

Janine, I don't think anyone is saying this story is crap. It's just not upper tier level. That's all.

I always allow others their opinions and respect them, but I feel mine are being misconstrued here. Please show me where I've been inconsistent as I don't see it. I am in no way saying I'm right. Everyone else could be right and I could be wrong and that's fine with me. I don't think it's even a question of right and wrong. I just think I should be allowed to my own opinion and not have people say I've changed it several times.
I don't think anyone is disrespecting you Anti. But this is a dialogue between all of us, and perhaps we are being super critical of all our statements, just lkike we're doiing to poor Lawrence's story. ;)

I no doubt am a very demanding reader. I do not contest that statement one bit. I am probably one of the most demanding readers people will ever encounter. I'm also demanding with myself when I write. I'm afriad I don't post my work here. People ask to read it and say they want to make a comment about it, then don't, so now I don't post it.
Very good. We all have certain traits and abilities we bring to the dialogue. In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.

No, I've always said the story is not about "sexual tension" and I maintain that it's not about "sexual tension." I have never wavered from that or from the fact that Edward only feels a primitive, but repugnant and fleeting, attraction to Gertie Thomas. That, to me, does not constitute "sexual tension."

I do not think this is a story of "sexual tension." To me, on episode of primitive attraction that lasts a minute or so, isn't "sexual tension." If it is to others, that's fine with me, but please allow me to have my own opinion and not say I keep changing it when you said you can't even make sense of my posts.
I can definitely see where your reading it this way. I do disagree, but I see where you're coming from.

Janine, it's fine with me if not every story measures up to "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter." Not many stories, from any author, do. In fact, I think "The Old Adam" is good to look at because it shows how much Lawrence evolved. And it's an amusing story in its own right. I think the story was a good choice.
And so do I. Has anyone bought the audio. I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I love reading while an audio of the text is being read. I've said this in many places on lit net. I find audio readings very entertaining. But I do need to read along. Many people just listen, and I can't focus that well with just a reader. But a reader with the text in front of me really amplifies the writing.

I think sometimes we tend to go round and round in this thread because people want others to agree with them and I don't personally think total agreement is necessary.
Sometimes. Sometimes we are just questioning each other. It's trying to understand how the other person arrived at that conclusion. But sometimes we do press it to far. I think we're all guilty of that.

One point about the use of flowers and how irises (and Mums in another story) don't have odor and yet Lawrence says they do. I can't quite answer that. But I must say Lawrence knew his botony. In fact I think that's what he taught in school when he was a teacher before he was a writer. There are flowers in just about every work he wrote. I have to think that the irises and mums he's referring to do have an odor, perhaps in some version in England. I don't know. But Lawrence really, really knew flowers. It doesn't strike me as something he would make up. It's probably something my lack of expertise can't pin down.

Virgil

06-12-2008, 11:41 AM

If people don't mind, especially Janine, I would like to take over the leadership of this story. I think I will make it go faster. Is that alright?

Janine

06-12-2008, 03:05 PM

Virgil

06-12-2008, 11:15 PM

Virgil, that is just fine with me; would be great if you would take over the story. Actually, I asked Virgil to do so in a PM last night. I don't mind admitting it here now; I am quite resigned to the fact I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion. I'll have to consider about continuing with other discussions in this thread. I definitely need a break; I think I said that about 3 months back, but then we ended up continuing. I tried to do a good job contributing to this thread, within my own capabilities, so I am satisified with that.

Oh I didn't realize you were not going to participate at all. Ok I understand.

So let's get on with looking at the text. I will post whole sections at a time. Breaking into subsections I think makes it harder to see the big picture of the story; of course on the flip side we may not be able to focus on the details as much. So there are pluses and minues to both approaches. As it turns out completing this section is still not that large a chunk. Ok, here it is.

Mrs. Thomas went very pale. She tried not to look at the window, yet, when she felt the lightning blench the lamplight, she watched, and each time a flash leaped on the window, she shuddered. Severn, all unconsciously, was smiling with roused eyes.

"You don't like it?" he said, at last, gently.

"Not much," she answered, and he laughed.

"Yet all the storms are a fair way off," he said. "Not one near enough to touch us."

"No, but," she replied, at last laying her hands in her lap, and turning to him, "it makes me feel worked up. You don't know how it makes me feel, as if I couldn't contain myself."

She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he. He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

He was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the delicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?

This paragraph gets to the heart of the tension (whether sexual or not;) ):

Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

And then we have the paragraph we've focused on before, where Severn questions himself ("What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering.) about his sexual arousal. And then we get a clear statement of what've I've been calling the two planes of consciousness:

There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.
Interesting Lawrence even uses the word "tension." Like I said earlier, Lawrence felt the need to be heavy handed here, otherwise the theme of the story would have been indeciperable.

Another interesting point, perhaps already stated by one of us, is that he will not act on his desires. At least that's what his conscious mind says. He intends to hold on to the mast (is that a good way to say it?) of civilization. Interesting, Severn doesn't repress it with Mr. Thomas and they conclude on good terms, wile he will not act with Mrs. Thomas and they end on frustrated terms.

Quark

06-12-2008, 11:23 PM

In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.

Those are certainly two of the advantages to discussing the stories in the L thread. I've always found the conversation interesting and argument enlightening. With that in mind, let me "round" parts of your last post. First, this:

I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.

I didn't have the same problems understanding Kate and Mary. The Kate and Gertie fight mirrors the Severn-husband fight. You're right that Lawrence doesn't integrate her character into the plot, but that's only because it would be repetitive to do so. After we see the Severn-husband fight it's instantly clear why Kate is leaving. The reader doesn't need to see her fight played out; we've already seen what that would look like. Meanwhile, Mary shows the temptation and repulsion of desire that we later see in the wife. Gertie attracts Severn only to reject him later. Mary does the same. I didn't think her role--or Kate's--was in any way ambiguous. In fact, I thought we agreed on the points I made above.

One other comment on this:

Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.

That's well put. Severn's inner struggle between these two planes is particularly dwelt on. I'm surprised you didn't like this part, though.

I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion.

You've certainly earned a break, but don't think that anyone here is pushing you out. We're all sorry to lose you. Hopefully, you can come back soon.

I am happy this thread has been so successful and run as long as it has; a year with over 2000 posts is really impressive, I think.

Yes, it's been the busiest literature thread on the entire forum. (I did a brief check). It's also a close second for the most entertaining--right after the Chekhov Short Story Thread (CSST).

Dark Muse

06-13-2008, 12:40 AM

Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?

I think it is a sign of her weakness, perhaps as a woman, she is seen as week compared to Severn in the room with her whom does not seem to be bothered by the storm but rather more amused by it and her fear of it.

It could also be her apprehension and fear to the tension within the air, and what the storm signifies in the events that are yet to come. It seems to be very uncharacteristic of her character, as normally she is seen as being very overbearing and dominant, so perhaps it is showing her vulnerability here.

He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

I found these lines interesting. Perhaps it is seeing her in this moment of vulnerability of weakness that sparks his attraction to her.

Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

Here Severn does seem drawn to this softer side of Mrs. Thomas, seeing her in a different light, or new element than he is use to seeing her. It also seems to be an example of the weakness of the feminine compared to the masculine, she is being cast very much like the damsel in distress in this interaction with Severn, compare to how she than later acts.

Also I found the use of the word recklessness interesting here.

Virgil

06-13-2008, 08:49 PM

Ok, the next section is Mr. Thomas arrives home and the events of the evening prior to bringing down Kate's box.

Towards eleven o'clock Mr. Thomas came in.

"I wonder you come home at all," Severn heard Mrs. Thomas say as her husband stepped indoors.

"I left the office at half-past ten," the voice of Thomas replied, disagreeably.

"Oh, don't try to tell me that old tale," the woman answered contemptuously.

"I didn't try anything at all, Gertie," he replied with sarcasm. "Your question was answered."

Severn imagined him bowing with affected, magisterial dignity, and he smiled. Mr. Thomas was something in the law.

Mrs. Thomas left her husband in the hall, came and sat down again at table, where she and Severn had just finished supper, both of them reading the while.

Thomas came in, flushed very red. He was of middle stature, a thickly-built man of forty, good-looking. But he had grown round-shouldered with thrusting forward his chin in order to look the aggressive, strong-jawed man. He had a good jaw; but his mouth was small and nervously pinched. His brown eyes were of the emotional, affectionate sort, lacking pride or any austerity.

He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.

"Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

"Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

"I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

"Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

"Quite--I thank you," he answered, bowing with great sarcasm. It was utterly lost on his wife.

"Hm-hm!" she murmured in abstraction, continuing to read.

Silence resumed. Severn was grinning to himself, chuckling.

"I had a compliment paid me to-night, Gertie," said Thomas, quite amicably, after a while. He still ignored Severn.

"Hm-hm!" murmured his wife. This was a well-known beginning. Thomas valiantly struggled on with his courtship of his wife, swallowing his spleen.

"Councillor Jarndyce, in full committee--Are you listening, Gertie?"

"Yes," she replied, looking up for a moment.

"You know Councillor Jarndyce's style," Thomas continued, in the tone of a man determined to be patient and affable: "--the courteous Old English Gentleman--"

"Hm-hm!" replied Mrs. Thomas.

"He was speaking in reply to . . ." Thomas gave innumerable wearisome details, which no one heeded.

"Then he bowed to me, then to the Chairman--'I am compelled to say, Mr. Chairman, that we have one cause for congratulation; we are inestimably fortunate in one member of our staff; there is one point of which we can always be sure--the point of law; and it is an important point, Mr. Chairman.'

"He bowed to the Chairman, he bowed to me. And you should have heard the applause all round that Council Chamber--that great, horseshoe table, you don't know how impressive it is. And every face turned to me, and all round the board: 'Hear--Hear!' You don't know what respect I command in business, Mrs. Thomas."

"Then let it suffice you," said Mrs. Thomas, calmly indifferent.

Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter.

"The fat-head's had two drops of Scotch, so he's drawing on his imagination," thought Severn chuckling deeply.

"I thought you said there was no meeting to-night," Mrs. Thomas suddenly and innocently remarked after a while.

"There was a meeting, in camera," replied her husband, drawing himself up with official dignity. His excessive and wounded dignity convulsed Severn; the lie disgusted Mrs. Thomas in spite of herself.

Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics, passed a lordly opinion very offensive to the young man. Severn had risen, stretched himself, and laid down his book. He was leaning on the mantelpiece in an indifferent manner, as if he scarcely noticed the two talkers. But hearing Thomas pronounce like a boor upon the Woman's Bill, he roused himself, and coolly contradicted his landlord. Mrs. Thomas shot a look of joy at the white-clad young man who lounged so scornfully on the hearth. Thomas cracked his knuckles one after another, and lowered his brown eyes, which were full of hate. After a sufficient pause, for his timidity was stronger than his impulse, he replied with a phrase that sounded final. Severn flipped the sense out of it with a few words. In the argument Severn, more cultured and far more nimble-witted than his antagonist, who hauled up his answers with a lawyer's show of invincibility, but who had not any fineness of perception, merely spiked his opponent's pieces and smiled at him. Also the young man enjoyed himself by looking down scornfully, straight into the brown eyes of his senior all the time, so that Thomas writhed.

Mrs. Thomas, meantime, took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ecstasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The irony of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.

The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.

"I will go to bed," said Severn. He would have spoken some conciliatory words to his landlord; he lingered with that purpose; but he could not bring his throat to utter his purpose.

"Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box? You may be gone before he's up in the morning, and the cab comes at ten. Do you mind?"

We get a description of Mr. Thomas here.

Thomas came in, flushed very red. He was of middle stature, a thickly-built man of forty, good-looking. But he had grown round-shouldered with thrusting forward his chin in order to look the aggressive, strong-jawed man. He had a good jaw; but his mouth was small and nervously pinched. His brown eyes were of the emotional, affectionate sort, lacking pride or any austerity.
It reminds me of a neanderthal. :lol: But what's key is the "lacking pride or any austerity." He is one not layered in civilization. By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?

Here's more interesting stuff;

He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.
:lol: I love it, he is an ape:"thick hands," rudimmentary movement. I hadn't picked up on this in my other reads. Perhaps he would enjoy my clerihews. :lol: If you don't know what I mean, go to my current blog entry.

And really I love the dialogue next between Thomas and Gertie. It's worth repeating:

"Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

"Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

"I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

"Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

"Quite--I thank you," he answered, bowing with great sarcasm. It was utterly lost on his wife.
My wife swears I talk like this too sometimes, as if I'm insulting. It must be my neanderthal moments. :lol: Or women just hear such stuff in their minds. ;) Of course I'm drinking wine usually, not beer.

But throughout the scene there is a bond between Severn and Mrs. Thomas and stand in opposition to Mr. Thomas. I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment." Now whle Mr. thomas doesn't eat with "savage" bites, the tone of his voice is definitely savage. I do think there is a clear tie. Thomas is supposed to be linked with the precivilized.

And look at Severn's reaction to Thomas:

"The fat-head's had two drops of Scotch, so he's drawing on his imagination," thought Severn chuckling deeply.
We've talked about what's not great about the story, I'd like to say how masterfully Lawrence handles the Severn character. He changes during the course of the story. He's a young man in a white clothing and holding a tennis racket at the beginning, but by the end he's closer to Mr. Thomas, the neanderthal, and Mrs. Thomas has been pushed to the side. That movement is very skillful and really does amplify the central theme. No heavy handedness there.

What's really interesting, and again it just caught my eye, is that the discussion of politics is over woman's liberation.

Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics, passed a lordly opinion very offensive to the young man. Severn had risen, stretched himself, and laid down his book. He was leaning on the mantelpiece in an indifferent manner, as if he scarcely noticed the two talkers. But hearing Thomas pronounce like a boor upon the Woman's Bill, he roused himself, and coolly contradicted his landlord. Mrs. Thomas shot a look of joy at the white-clad young man who lounged so scornfully on the hearth. Thomas cracked his knuckles one after another, and lowered his brown eyes, which were full of hate. After a sufficient pause, for his timidity was stronger than his impulse, he replied with a phrase that sounded final. Severn flipped the sense out of it with a few words. In the argument Severn, more cultured and far more nimble-witted than his antagonist, who hauled up his answers with a lawyer's show of invincibility, but who had not any fineness of perception, merely spiked his opponent's pieces and smiled at him. Also the young man enjoyed himself by looking down scornfully, straight into the brown eyes of his senior all the time, so that Thomas writhed.
For those that may not know, Lawrence was pretty much anti-feminist. He associates woman's liberation with civilization and the discontent from civilization and in some cases the reason against civilization. The feminist critics do hate Lawrence. :D

Interesting that Mrs. Thomas atcually takes her husband's side in the political argument:

Mrs. Thomas, meantime, took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ecstasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The irony of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.
But I think we see that the conflict has finally been engaged (Severn and Thomas) which result in the climatic fight. I'll conclude with this wonderful paragraph that sets up the fight that will ensue:

The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.
Boy that is good writing. :)

Virgil

06-13-2008, 10:05 PM

Hahaha, very good Anti. The subtext is there. I don't know how one can teach that to a writer. I have no idea how to write fiction like that. That's why I always call Lawrence such a natural.

Dark Muse

06-14-2008, 12:03 AM

It reminds me of a neanderthal. :lol: But what's key is the "lacking pride or any austerity." He is one not layered in civilization. By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?

That is an interesting thought. Mr. Thomas being the "Old Adam" but it does make sense, as Severn is man after the fall, he is more aware of morality, and sin, while Mr. Thomas does seem to be more primitive than Severn is.

He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile

Though I do not belive they have ever acutally fought before, they clearly have a history of hostilty to each other. Perhaps the moment of the fight is something that has been building up for a time now. And with the talk of the storm, well perhaps finally something did just snap, and a preassure was released. It could also be why they were able to be friends after. For they finally confronted whatever was between them instead of habording it away.

I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment." Now whle Mr. thomas doesn't eat with "savage" bites, the tone of his voice is definitely savage. I do think there is a clear tie. Thomas is supposed to be linked with the precivilized.

Ineresting observation, but a good point. I can see how Mr. Thomas might be more linked to the child. Or rather more like the child, though we never acutally see Mr. Thomas and the child together. And there is no indication they have much of a relationship with each other as he is always away from home and the child seems bonded to Severn. But thier natures are more the same than the others in the house.

The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it. At last Severn was aware he and Thomas were both getting overheated. Thomas had doubled and dodged painfully, like a half-frenzied rabbit that will not realise it is trapped. Finally his efforts had moved even his opponent to pity. Mrs. Thomas was not pitiful. She scorned her husband's dexterity of argument, when his intellectual dishonesty was so evident to her. Severn uttered his last phrases, and would say no more. Then Thomas cracked his knuckles one after the other, turned aside, consumed with morbid humiliation, and there was silence.

This very much seems to refelct the thunderstom, and reminds me of the scene with the storm. The way in which it says "the battle of words" makes me think of how the storm was said to be two storms at battle.

One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

Though sometimes it is only two of them, never more than three.

First it is the child, Severn, and Mrs. Thomas, and than the child is removed, and Kate enters, and it becomes Kate, Severn and Mrs. Thomas, than Kate leaves the secene and Mr. Thomas enters, and so it is Mrs. Thomas, Mr Thomas, and Severn.

And twice within the story it does point out that there are three of them together

The first time it says

All three stood a moment watching the trains pass

and the next time it says:

The three were silent becasue of the baby

Logos

06-14-2008, 12:12 AM

Ok, [lots of thoughts in my head right now!] but just for now ... I am going to post this information here because a few have mentioned their desire to keep a record of this thread. [These instructions are for when viewing the site in the Firefox browser. Internet Explorer browser will act similarly; I can amend later when I have more time to check this out in IE to make sure of this however.]

There are a few different ways you can save a copy of a *page* from this thread to your computer hard drive, or, you can print a hard copy of a page. [If you want to save more than one page, of course you have to follow these steps for *each* page of the thread you wish to save.]

How to print to paper a page from the thread:

If you want to print a colour version of the page as-is, with all the lovely LitNet colour scheme, icons, smilies, avatars, images, etc, click on the "File" menu @ top left hand corner of screen and select "Print".

If you want a more plain copy of the page with just text, no background colour and images etc. you can click the "Thread Tools" link near top right hand corner of screen. Select "Show Printable Version", then, click in the top left hand corner browser menu "File" --> "Print".

errrk, the "Email this page" option does not seem to work right now...lol...

--

If you want to save a copy of a page from this thread to your computer hard drive:

First decide *where* on your computer you want to save the file. You might want to set up a folder in your documents folder called "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion" or something like that.

Then, when viewing the page you want to save, in top left hand corner click "File" then "Save Page As"; a pop window prompts you to select the location where you want to save it. So, where it says "Save In" at the top of the pop up window, click on the drop down menu arrow on right [pointing down] to find on your computer the location where your "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion" folder is. The path to it might be, say, "My Computer", "Local Disk", "My Documents", "Lit Net", then "LitNet D. H. Lawrence discussion". So double click that folder in the drop down menu so it's name appears in the window beside "Save In".

The default "File Name" in window at bottom of pop up window might be "showthread.php"--you probably want to amend this to say "Page 145 [or whichever page it is you are wanting to save] so that if you save more than one page they appear in your folder in chronological sequence. So now you can save the page as a "Web Page, complete" which will give you all of the colours, avatars, icons, images, text, etc. [some of which is saved in an additional yellow folder so just leave that alone]; or, you can save the page as "Web Page, HTML only" which does *not* give you all the avatars or icons etc. If you save the page as "Text Only" it becomes a jambled mess of pure plain text, no colour, no images, no spacing so I don't recommend.

Another way to save a page, in top left hand corner click "Edit" --> "Select All" then right-click your mouse on the page and select "Copy", then open a Microsoft Word document or other such similar word processing document in the folder you have set up for this, click "Edit" in top menu, then select "Paste".

ok, its late, I think this is clear and correct, sorry for yet another off-topic post ;) let me know if it makes sense.

cheers,
/L

--

Virgil

06-14-2008, 12:22 AM

One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

Though sometimes it is only two of them, never more than three.

First it is the child, Severn, and Mrs. Thomas, and than the child is removed, and Kate enters, and it becomes Kate, Severn and Mrs. Thomas, than Kate leaves the secene and Mr. Thomas enters, and so it is Mrs. Thomas, Mr Thomas, and Severn.

And twice within the story it does point out that there are three of them together

That is an interesting observation. I don't know what to make of it. Perhaps just coincidence.

Logos - Thanks for all that. I didn't know we could do all that. I'm glad you provided that.

Janine

06-14-2008, 02:35 AM

Logos, I tried it both ways and actually I think I will go with the text doc. It will take up less hard-drive space, although the other is prettier, of course. It took me awhile to find the file you were talking about, but I finally found it all the way up in my own browser menu; before that, like a dummy, I was looking only on the Lit Net pages (tan) and could not locate it. It is easy to use and works quickly. I can make out the differences in the quote and the posted text. One is intended. The text will be faster to copy and less to store. Thanks so much for these great instructions and taking the time to write them all out; sorry it got late for you; your brain needed a rest after all this.

Quark

06-14-2008, 09:15 PM

By jove, he I think must be the old adam. What do you guys think?

I haven't been able to put together what the title refers to. We all agree that it's an allusion to the character in Genesis, but beyond that it becomes hard to understand. The "Old" in "Old Adam" either refers to the fact that the story of Adam is old or it refers to Adam advanced in age (post-lapsarian). Either way, the title probably is meant to show that the narrative in some way demonstrates the fall of man. Whether one character is meant to demonstrate that or just the general plot, I don't know. The closest we come to a character "falling" is not either of the men in this story, though. It's Gertie. She's the one who commits a sin and suffers. The guys, meanwhile, reconcile their differences and move on--hardly a "fall." If the title referred to a woman, though, wouldn't it be called "The Old Eve?" It's confusing. Clearly, Gertie is an Eve-like character, but who does that make Adam? Mr. Thomas? Severn? Severn sort of depicts what Lawrence thought of as a fallen man, but he's redeemed at the end. How can he be Adam? Once again, it's confusing.

Perhaps he would enjoy my clerihews. :lol:

This made me look at your blog, Virgil, and what a mistake that was. I think I lost whatever innocence I had left.

I found the line, "Mr. Thomas bit his bread-and-butter" very interesting. A rather innocuous line but it does tie back to the child biting into bread and butter too: "She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment."

That's a good observation. I didn't notice that. Both characters are primitive, and their reaction to obstacles is similar: gnaw on some bread. I think the characters are primitive in different ways, though. Mr. Thomas is a brute. He's the simian predecessor to man who lacks the cerebral skills and refinement of ordinary human beings. This is certainly primitive, but it's different from the girl who is merely free-spirited and impulsive. I suppose you could call them two sides to the same coin, but I do think they express different forms of "precivilized" behavior.

I'd like to say how masterfully Lawrence handles the Severn character.

Oh, I agree. Lawrence develops Severn's character and his relationship to Mrs. Thomas very well. One part seems to naturally come out of the next until the full charactered emerged at exactly the critical moment.

What's really interesting, and again it just caught my eye, is that the discussion of politics is over woman's liberation.

Gertie's married to a brutish husband. What could be more appropriate?

I like the subtext:

That's hilarious. You captured it perfectly. Lawrence should have included a subtext commentary like your's after the story.

One thing I did notice, though I do not know if it is meant to mean anything, but with the relgious nature of the story it did strike me as currious. There is never at any point more than three people together in the room.

Maybe I'm harping on this too much, but I think all the characters are playing out one shared plot. If Lawrence brought them all out at once it would be needlessly repetitive. We know what is going on with Kate through what is going on with Severn, and we understand Mary through Gertie. The reader doesn't need to see them all at once because they can be described through the other characters who share their qualities.

Virgil

06-15-2008, 12:23 AM

Weren't trains a good symbol to Lawrence? I can't believe he had all three watch the trains for no reason at all, yet the fight follows?

Not exactly sure what you mean by good symbol. Usually it suggests the modern world. That meaning does fit here I believe.

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

Pensive

06-15-2008, 04:20 AM

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

Thanks Virgil for making this clear. It quite makes sense. :)

Oh and Janine, you will be missed. But I guess we all need rest at times in our life. But despite of that I hope you visit us now and then.

Quark

06-15-2008, 01:06 PM

Not exactly sure what you mean by good symbol. Usually it suggests the modern world. That meaning does fit here I believe.

You're probably right, but I never took them so much as symbols. They seem like simply a mood setting device. A sting of light in the distance is a sensual image which fits with the seductive mood of that scene and the one in the previous story. It's funny that all the characters stop to stare at it, as Anti pointed out. Lawrence was really trying to make the reader notice, I guess.

Quark, the old Adam refers to the pre-lapsarian man, that is man before the fall and pre-civilization.

That could be, but still you run into problems trying to evaluate which character is Adam or how the story relates to its title. There are two "precivilized" characters but neither is like prelapsarian Adam. Mary is more like a heathen, and it's questionable whether Mr. Thomas is even human. Severn perhaps comes closest to being an Adam because he's unaware that he's in love with Mrs. Thomas. He's repressing that love, though. He isn't totally unaware of it.

Dark Muse

06-15-2008, 02:00 PM

I really did not care for Joe.

Though we do not see much of Kate I had an inclination to like her, and I liked Mary, and did not really find anything wrong with her. I personally like the whole "wild child" thing. I like a kid that shorts some spirit and spunk.

And I found Severn to be intriguing. He had a certain almost sarcasam to him, with his "dangerous laughter" but than again I tend to be like people who do have that evil, or dark side.

and Mrs. Thomas I did not care for. She was too overbearing.

Janine

06-16-2008, 12:45 AM

Even though I am taking a break from this story for the remainder of the the month, I did enjoy reading this story; so I am reading the posts, just not posting, Pensive. I was just wondering - what happened to Virgil?

Virgil

06-16-2008, 07:11 AM

No I haven't deserted. :lol: I thought you guys wanted a little more time. I'll get the next section out tonight.

Janine

06-16-2008, 02:53 PM

No I haven't deserted. :lol: I thought you guys wanted a little more time. I'll get the next section out tonight.

Ha! and you said you would be faster than me.;)

Yeah really, A, V should get is brain out of those silly poems and get in here!:lol:

Janine

06-16-2008, 09:01 PM

You mean "dirty" poems. ;) I read them all, too. Who knows what he's composed that he hasn't shown us, Janine? ;) Yep, there the ones. I read them all, too (unfortunately). Yes, if these are his public works, better we don't know his private ones.

Poor Lawrence. And people accused him of things.

Yeah, really. I think he would have cringed at Virgil's poem about him.

Virgil, tsk, tsk. ;) (You did tell us you'd be faster, though. Janine is right. Since you've discovered Clerihews, we've barely heard a peep from you. LOL)

Yes, tsk, tsk - Shakespeare uses that a lot! tsk! I guess he will surface eventually.;)

Virgil

06-16-2008, 09:16 PM

Ok, ok. :lol: Even God said to rest on the seventh day. :D

Here's the next section:

"Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box? You may be gone before he's up in the morning, and the cab comes at ten. Do you mind?"

"Why should I?" replied Severn.

"Are you ready, Joe?" she asked her husband.

Thomas rose with the air of a man who represses himself and is determined to be patient.

"Where is it?" he asked.

"On the top landing. I'll tell Kate, and then we shan't frighten her. She has gone to bed."

Mrs. Thomas was quite mistress of the situation; both men were humble before her. She led the way, with a candle, to the third floor. There on the little landing, outside the closed door, stood a large tin trunk. The three were silent because of the baby.

"Poor Kate," Severn thought. "It's a shame to kick her out into the world, and all for nothing." He felt an impulse of hate towards womankind.

"Shall I go first, Mr. Severn?" asked Thomas.

It was surprising how friendly the two men were, as soon as they had something to do together, or when Mrs. Thomas was absent. Then they were comrades, Thomas, the elder, the thick-set, playing the protector's part, though always deferential to the younger, whimsical man.

"I had better go first," said Thomas kindly. "And if you put this round the handle, it won't cut your fingers."

He offered the young man a little flexible book from his pocket. Severn had such small, fine hands that Thomas pitied them.

Severn raised one end of the trunk. Leaning back, and flashing a smile to Mrs. Thomas, who stood with the candle, he whispered: "Kate's got a lot more impediments than I have."

"I know it's heavy," laughed Mrs. Thomas.

Thomas, waiting at the brink of the stairs, saw the young man tilting his bare throat towards the smiling woman, and whispering words which pleased her.

"At your pleasure, sir," he said in his most grating and official tones.

"Sorry," Severn flung out scornfully.

The elder man retreated very cautiously, stiffly lowering himself down one stair, looking anxiously behind.

"Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically, when he had managed one stair. She lifted the candle with a swoop. He was in a bustle and a funk, Severn, always indifferent, smiled slightly, and lowered the box with negligent ease of movement. As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the heavy weight: pressed on Thomas. Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

"If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself.

"Don't come yet," he called softly to Mrs. Thomas, whom he heard following. "If you slip, your husband's bottom-most under the smash. 'Beware the fearful avalanche!'"

He laughed, and Mrs. Thomas gave a little chuckle. Thomas, very red and flustered, glanced irritably back at them, but said nothing.

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.

When Thomas was beginning to sweat with relief, being only one step from the landing, Severn did slip, quite accidentally. The great box crashed as if in pain, Severn glissaded down the stairs. Thomas was flung backwards across the landing, and his head went thud against the banister post. Severn, seeing no great harm done, was struggling to his feet, laughing and saying: "I'm awfully sorry--" when Thomas got up. The elder man was infuriated like a bull. He saw the laughing face of Severn and he went mad. His brown eyes flared.

Hahaha, this is great drama. And like a really good joke, Lawrence sets up the punch line. "Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically" and then "If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself." and then "Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs" all set up the sip and drop of the trunk. But the key here is the psychological implications of the drop. Did Severn do it on purpose? Well, we can take it on face value that he didn't mean to drop the trunk. But this I think is the key:

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.
A "subconscious instinct." Below his conscious thoughts Severn wants to drop the trunk. He's been bullied by Mr. Thomas all night and now he's got a chance to get his revenge. He realizes how dangerous it would be to Mr. Thomas, "I should squash him like a shrimp," but he doesn't consciously want to hurt him, but he does want him hurt. Their masculine instincts are revved up, and ready for a fight. The fight was subconsciously in the works prior to the dropped trunk. They just needed an excuse to go through with it.

Janine

06-16-2008, 09:46 PM

I'll bet Virgil could compose a good Clerihew about this story :LOL:

Yes, Lawrence was conventional is someways - he did want marriage to one woman, based on love, respect, closeness; athough, he did not like the word 'love' particularly, because he felt it was much more than the actual word usually indicated. He did desire this union for a lifetime, maybe even eternity; yes, he did believe in fidelity, although it is reported that Frieda did stray towards the end, but L was suppose to be impotent by then; but I don't think L liked it one bit; he just accepted it because he did love her.

Virgil

06-16-2008, 10:24 PM

I
Edit - Oh, I see you're back, Virgil. Janine and I could only come to the conclusion that you were off composing Clerihews. ;)

You women better watch it. Or I'll compose some new clerihews about someone named Antiquarian and Janine. :D

Dark Muse

06-17-2008, 01:34 AM

"On the top landing. I'll tell Kate, and then we shan't frighten her. She has gone to bed."

This confused me a bit, as I was not sure just what it is she thought would frighten Kate.

Severn raised one end of the trunk. Leaning back, and flashing a smile to Mrs. Thomas, who stood with the candle, he whispered: "Kate's got a lot more impediments than I have."

"I know it's heavy," laughed Mrs. Thomas.

Thomas, waiting at the brink of the stairs, saw the young man tilting his bare throat towards the smiling woman, and whispering words which pleased her.

"At your pleasure, sir," he said in his most grating and official tones.

"Sorry," Severn flung out scornfully.

The elder man retreated very cautiously, stiffly lowering himself down one stair, looking anxiously behind.

"Are you holding the light for me, Gertie?" he snapped sarcastically, when he had managed one stair. She lifted the candle with a swoop. He was in a bustle and a funk, Severn, always indifferent, smiled slightly, and lowered the box with negligent ease of movement. As a matter of fact, three-quarters of the heavy weight: pressed on Thomas. Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

"If I slip now," thought Severn, as he noticed the anxious, red face of his landlord, "I should squash him like a shrimp," and he laughed to himself.

"Don't come yet," he called softly to Mrs. Thomas, whom he heard following. "If you slip, your husband's bottom-most under the smash. 'Beware the fearful avalanche!'"

He laughed, and Mrs. Thomas gave a little chuckle. Thomas, very red and flustered, glanced irritably back at them, but said nothing.

I found this little flirtation between Mrs. Thomas, and Severn here to be interesting.

A moment ago Severn was gripped by hatred for womankind becasue of Mrs. Thomas's treatment of Kate, but now he is once more joining in with her, in making fun of someone else.

Near the bottom of the staircase there was a twist in the stairs. Severn was feeling particularly reckless. When he came to the turn, he chuckled to himself, feeling his house-slippers unsafe on the narrowed, triangular stairs. He loved a risk above all things, and a subconscious instinct made the risk doubly sweet when his rival was under the box. Though Severn would not knowingly have hurt a hair of his landlord's head.

When Thomas was beginning to sweat with relief, being only one step from the landing, Severn did slip, quite accidentally. The great box crashed as if in pain, Severn glissaded down the stairs. Thomas was flung backwards across the landing, and his head went thud against the banister post. Severn, seeing no great harm done, was struggling to his feet, laughing and saying: "I'm awfully sorry--" when Thomas got up. The elder man was infuriated like a bull. He saw the laughing face of Severn and he went mad. His brown eyes flared.

This reminds me of the lamp incident in the last story. Where to me there seems to be a thin vauge line between accident and intention.

It is interesting that Mr. Thomas, does blame Severn for having done it on purpose, and though it seems that in fact he had accidently slipped all the while he was cotemplating doing the very thing that happened.

I felt that the age difference between the two men, Mr. Thomas being the elder, with Severn being a young man played some role in the fight, particuarly with the ideas of "primal" man. As the fight in someways made me think of pack animals, in which young males will try and establish themselves as the leaders by making a challange to the older males within the pack, the alphas, to try and establish dominence for thesmelves, becasue as the young grow older, they become restless feeling they have a lesser rank, and having to take orders.

Janine

06-17-2008, 01:46 AM

Really? I'm sure Janine and I would be honored. :D

Thank you for the information, Janine. Yes, I believe love is more than love. It's more all encompassing than the word indicates.
Anytime, Antiquarian; I have tons of biographical information on Lawrence and love to share it with others. Yes, actually in the novel "Women in Love" he makes it known that the word 'love' is insufficent for what he feels exists in a perfect relationship between a man and a woman, husband and wife. I grasp his idea on a deeper plane, now innate and I believe he is correct.

Why did Lawrence write so much about infidelity? I do know Connie in Lady Chatterley's Love is very hesitant to become the lover of Mellors. She's encouraged by her husband and doesn't want the affair (for want of a better word). Not at first.

I don't know except to think that so much was born out of his own family situation and his parents who were so at odds with each other, so different. I think Lawrence was a very keen observer of life around him; he was highly sensitive to individuals and could read far below the surface of a person. I think he is extraordinary delving into the minds of women, especially. Yes, Lady Chatterly does not go off with Mellors suddenly, she is slowly attracted to him; she struggles with this attraction; then with breaking away from her husband. I think basically, Lawrence writes about human struggle; all of his stories are filled with that struggle and elements of opposition, even within a person. I can see how Lawrence would have related to that struggle.

Why do some authors write about murders? They are not murderers themselves. I think authors try to teach us by showing us the wrong things people do or their reactions that go astray or their bad decisions; in this way, we come to the conclusion that the characters could have acted more appropriately. Therefore, we come to the conclusion that life could be better and we could make it so.

He wrote about infidelity in his short stories, too. Was he just exploring human nature and the problems we have with love? I can understand that.

The above goes along with this. In showing that people do indeed act out infidelity or other failings of human-beings he is not condoning that behavior but showing how wrong or destructive it can be.

I read somewhere that Lawrence said it was vital for a mate of his to be as passionately interested in literature as he was. He said it was essential that he be able to share that with the woman he married. Did he share that with Frieda? Was she open to that? I would imagine so, but I don't know.

Frieda was involved in Lawrence's work very much so. I think she was a highly intelligent woman. Don't judge a book by it's cover. I think she was well-read and very helpful in regard to his novels; I don't think so much with his short stories. I just read "The Virgin and the Gipsy" and noticed the book was dedicated to her.

His rival? For Mrs. Thomas? Or just his male rival in the night's shenanigans?

Short answer, since I was suppose to be refraining from posting on the story. I think rival to Mrs. Thomas. Seems the three make up the triangle often seen in Lawrence's stories. It is not till Severn glances towards Mrs. Thomas that her husband becomes jealous and irritable, sarcastic towards Severn.

The scene is wonderfully comic and again, loaded with subtext. Very masterful writing here.

I laughed when I first read it. I found it very amusing. Lawrence, who Severn was suppose to be fashioned after (biographically), did indeed make that family (the Jones) laugh often. He had a great rapport with them; I read that in one of my biography books.

Virgil

06-17-2008, 07:13 AM

Why did Lawrence write so much about infidelity? I do know Connie in Lady Chatterley's Love is very hesitant to become the lover of Mellors. She's encouraged by her husband and doesn't want the affair (for want of a better word). Not at first.

He wrote about infidelity in his short stories, too. Was he just exploring human nature and the problems we have with love? I can understand that.

I'm not sure that he does. I'm thinking through his major novels: no infidelity in Sons and Lovers (although I think Clara has been separated from her husband), none in The Rainbow, I can't recall any in Women In Love, and of course in Lady Chatterly there is. I guess there's some in the short stories, but it doesn't exactly stand out to me either.

This confused me a bit, as I was not sure just what it is she thought would frighten Kate.

Yeah, me too. Was it that she was in bed?

A moment ago Severn was gripped by hatred for womankind becasue of Mrs. Thomas's treatment of Kate, but now he is once more joining in with her, in making fun of someone else.
That jocular nature of Severn is his key characteristic it seems.

This reminds me of the lamp incident in the last story. Where to me there seems to be a thin vauge line between accident and intention.
That is a central tenet in many of Lawrence's work. He seems to believe the subconscious is way more active than we know (a bunch of psychobabble crap, if you ask me ;) ) and that it is free to go to things we repress in the conscious mind.

It is interesting that Mr. Thomas, does blame Severn for having done it on purpose, and though it seems that in fact he had accidently slipped all the while he was cotemplating doing the very thing that happened.
In a way, he did do it on purpose. :D

I felt that the age difference between the two men, Mr. Thomas being the elder, with Severn being a young man played some role in the fight, particuarly with the ideas of "primal" man. As the fight in someways made me think of pack animals, in which young males will try and establish themselves as the leaders by making a challange to the older males within the pack, the alphas, to try and establish dominence for thesmelves, becasue as the young grow older, they become restless feeling they have a lesser rank, and having to take orders.
Good point, the bucking young male trying to take over leadership of the pack. :lol:

Quote:
Why did Lawrence write so much about infidelity?

I don't know except to think that so much was born out of his own family situation and his parents who were so at odds with each other, so different. I think Lawrence was a very keen observer of life around him; he was highly sensitive to individuals and could read far below the surface of a person. I think he is extraordinary delving into the minds of women, especially. Yes, Lady Chatterly does not go off with Mellors suddenly, she is slowly attracted to him; she struggles with this attraction; then with breaking away from her husband. I think basically, Lawrence writes about human struggle; all of his stories are filled with that struggle and elements of opposition, even within a person. I can see how Lawrence would have related to that struggle.

Why do some authors write about murders? They are not murderers themselves. I think authors try to teach us by showing us the wrong things people do or their reactions that go astray or their bad decisions; in this way, we come to the conclusion that the characters could have acted more appropriately. Therefore, we come to the conclusion that life could be better and we could make it so.

I agree with both of Janine's points. Let me phrase it my way. First, one of the key events in Lawrence's life is his wooing of Frieda, who was a married woman, with children no less. And writers write mostly on what they know, so Lawrence must have thought about his experience much. Second, as poetry is charged language (I've said that elsewhere in several places) fiction is charged narrative. A poet needs to take the language beyond the mundane to make it interesting; a fiction writer needs to take narrative beyond the mundane to make that interesting. To write about our daily activities doesn't usually amount to anything interesting. So writers will write about war, an intense love affair, a murder, a dysfunctional family, and infidelity. These are things that raise the interest of readers because they are intense and they are not mundane.

Short answer, since I was suppose to be refraining from posting on the story.:lol: :lol: You can't keep away from Lawrence. It's like a moth attracted by a fire. :p

Dark Muse

06-17-2008, 11:18 PM

I could not get this site to work for me all day, untill just now

Virgil

06-17-2008, 11:30 PM

I could not get this site to work for me all day, untill just now

Me too.:bawling:

Janine

06-17-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote by Virgil:

:lol::lol: You can't keep away from Lawrence. It's like a moth attracted by a fire.:p

Virgil, :lol::lol: 'flame' and that is not a lot of psychobable! :p :lol:

DM, I could not get on either - the site was down for certain all day. ; so I went on Amazon and spent some money! yay!

I actually got my floor all vacumned today! Hurray, I should turn off the computer more often.

Virgil

06-18-2008, 01:20 AM

I think writers often write about mundane things, though, Virgil. Don't you? Not all, but some.

Well, they have to make it interesting. How mudane do you mean? I've never cared for pure slice of life stuff. No one cares that I got up in the morning, showered, went to work, and came home to futz around lit net. That's a slice of life. :lol: Ultimately those slice of life pieces depend on some sort of internal psychological drama. What is it that Tolstoy says: All happy families are alike; all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. You can't just easily write a slice of life of a happy family, but now a dysfunctional family - how easy is that. ;)

Janine

06-18-2008, 01:28 AM

Well, they have to make it interesting. How mudane do you mean? I've never cared for pure slice of life stuff. No one cares that I got up in the morning, showered, went to work, and came home to futz around lit net. That's a slice of life. :lol: Ultimately those slice of life pieces depend on some sort of internal psychological drama. What is it that Tolstoy says: All happy families are alike; all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. You can't just easily write a slice of life of a happy family, but now a dysfunctional family - how easy is that. ;)

Mine would fit the bill! hahaha :D They thrive on being disfunctional!

Janine

06-18-2008, 03:50 PM

No, I didn't mean mundane in that way, Virgil. I absolutely can't stand "slice of life," either.

I meant writers don't always write about murders, adultery, secrets, etc.

For example, in "The Old Adam" Lawrence writes about mundane things - a conventional middle class family, a husband who comes home late and enoys a beer, a wife who reads and sews, a young man with little experience in life, an innocent child, a maid who's being fired, and no one really does anything that doesn't occur in households every day, but Lawrence puts his own unique spin on the happenings and it makes the story special. He extracts a universal human truth from the goings on, which aren't that much, really - a romp in the garden, a slip down the stairs in which no one is seriously injured.

I just meant the not all stories, the best stories, in fact, aren't about spectacular things like John Grisham writes about or Dan Brown. The happenings in the best stories aren't going to change the world, but they are things that every human being experiences. We all carry "the old Adam" inside us, we all know loss of some kind, eventually, we all can name a child we love, even if not our own, we're all seaching for something, etc.

I hope that clears it up. ;)

Antiquarian, I agree with all what you said above; I think you wrote that and expressed the idea very well. I do think this an everyday sort of story or observance, which Lawrence's 'puts his own unique spin' on. Much is shown below the surface/between the lines/in the expressions of the characters - perhaps what you term 'subtext', and the ending is not an everyday occurance. I don't think many experience that type of thing occurring in our families, on a daily basis. Anyway, I liked the rest that you wrote very much so; especially about the 'Old Adam' within.

I guess I am in and out of here briefly - like a 'moth to a flame' as Virgil put it.

So what happened to the last bit of text Virgil posted? Is all discussed from that part? I kind of lost track here. I was reading along, but lost the flow again.

Antiquarian and Virgil, I was over in the Shakespeare; the discussion seems to have started today. I still need to relisten to my audiofile of the play, put I did answer a few posts from my memory. That play should be fun.

Janine

06-18-2008, 04:50 PM

Thanks, Janine. I appreciate your response.

Thanks, that makes me happy to know. I am still sort of on break. At least Virgil is posting the text! ;)

I don't think all of Lawrence's stories are about the everyday happenings in life. Is it "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" in which a love thought dead is found to be emotionally broken? That's not an experience everyone has, but it is a loss for the woman involved, and we all suffer loss.

No, they really aren't all everyday happenings, so true. Funny you should mention that short story - I just ordered some books from Dover last night - bit sale again and got them each so reasonable that I bought a lot so I would get free shipping. Anyway, one book onsale was some of L's more noted stories - think it is 7; at least this book made the claim they were some of his best. Several we have discussed in here and that one was on the list. I know there was some conjecture to if it was a good story but I personally loved that story. It is funny, a few of the others listed were ones I had considered and thought would be good for later on.

I think part of Lawrence's genius is being able to illuminate what goes on beneath the surface. That's the goal of almost every writer and Lawrence was certainly a genuis at achieving it.

Definitely true. He is noted for that talent of delving far below the surface of situations and interaction between characters and also within characters. His body of work is based on this idea and this complexity of characters. He was a natural genius at being able to achieve this - so true. He paved the way for many new authors and broke a lot of ground, not only in censorship, but also in the way he observed and wrote what is really going on within people and their minds.

I haven't been in the Shakespeare forum for a few days. In fact, I still have to read the play again. Or at least start. A lot of good discussion coming up - Chekhov, Shakespeare, hopefully The Road and The Sea. Maybe it's right to take a break from the Lawrence thread for awhile this summer, but we don't want to abandon it! Lawrence was far too great a writer for that. His stories are beautifully written and I still need to read at least The Rainbow and Women in Love.

Don't worry, it is probably moving slowly in Shakespeare. I have to listen to Act I tonight. Yes, many good discussions and summer is a good time for a break. No, I won't let the thread die out, if I can help it. I invested too many hours in this thread and much research. I need to copy all that to an offline file. It is all so 'invaluable', in my estimate - our past discussions.

Anti, I actually read "The Rainbow' after reading "Women in Love", but soon I hope to re-read "The Rainbow; I re-read now S&L, WIL, and several of the Novellas. Time to re-read "The Rainbow" I think. Do you own a copy of WIL? There is now listed on Amazon; a reasonable paperback. I wanted that one, but it was expensive back awhile ago and then not available, so I had to settle for a different edition. This one is the best, I think. It has a photo on the front of two woman, just showing their frocks/sort of black and white painting.

Virgil

06-18-2008, 06:44 PM

No, I didn't mean mundane in that way, Virgil. I absolutely can't stand "slice of life," either.

I meant writers don't always write about murders, adultery, secrets, etc.

For example, in "The Old Adam" Lawrence writes about mundane things - a conventional middle class family, a husband who comes home late and enoys a beer, a wife who reads and sews, a young man with little experience in life, an innocent child, a maid who's being fired, and no one really does anything that doesn't occur in households every day, but Lawrence puts his own unique spin on the happenings and it makes the story special. He extracts a universal human truth from the goings on, which aren't that much, really - a romp in the garden, a slip down the stairs in which no one is seriously injured.

I just meant the not all stories, the best stories, in fact, aren't about spectacular things like John Grisham writes about or Dan Brown. The happenings in the best stories aren't going to change the world, but they are things that every human being experiences. We all carry "the old Adam" inside us, we all know loss of some kind, eventually, we all can name a child we love, even if not our own, we're all seaching for something, etc.

I hope that clears it up. ;)
Oh absolutely. I was only listing the tried and retried methods by authors. Those have become genres of their own. Originaity in thinking up a new story situation is what makes a original work. My point was that one needs an experience that is intense, something that makes a story. Think of some of the premises of some great novels: Moby Dick, The Scarlet Letter, Portrait of a Lady, The Great Gatsby, The Sun Also Rises. Some of them are original but some are still tried and true. Like I said, if one does write on something mundane like in "The Old Adam" it has to rely on a psycological twist to make it interesting. If this was strictly a story about a young man dropping a trunk on an older man, well then who cares. But if there is a psychological battle underneath the surface, sexual tension, men trying to out masculine each other, then it makes for a story.

I guess I am in and out of here briefly - like a 'moth to a flame' as Virgil put it.

Seems like more in than out. :lol: Is that flame hot? :p

So what happened to the last bit of text Virgil posted? Is all discussed from that part? I kind of lost track here. I was reading along, but lost the flow again.
Oh goodness. Last night the forum was down. Patience. ;) I'll post the next in a few minutes. God, you can never keep the people happy in the peanut gallery. :D

Antiquarian and Virgil, I was over in the Shakespeare; the discussion seems to have started today. I still need to relisten to my audiofile of the play, put I did answer a few posts from my memory. That play should be fun.
I'll probably start Winter's Tale over the weekend.

Janine

06-18-2008, 07:10 PM

Seems like more in than out. :lol: Is that flame hot? :p

:lol: :lol: Now that I took a step back it is real hot!:lol:

Maybe sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.:goof:

Thundering here - might have to shut down for the evening. oh well.....then the flame will be temporarily extinquished.

Virgil

06-18-2008, 09:24 PM

In response to the pestering from the peanut gallery,:p I'm posting the next section of the story.

"You ----, you did it on purpose!" he shouted, and straightway he fetched the young man two heavy blows, upon the jaw and ear. Thomas, a footballer and a boxer in his youth, had been brought up among the roughs of Swansea; Severn in a religious college in France. The young man had never been struck in the face before. He instantly went white and mad with rage. Thomas stood on guard, fists up. But on the small, lumbered landing there was no room for fight. Moreover, Severn had no instinct of fisticuffs. With open, stiff fingers, the young man sprang on his adversary. In spite of the blow he received, but did not feel, he flung himself again forward, and then, catching Thomas's collar, brought him down with a crash. Instantly his exquisite hands were dug in the other's thick throat, the linen collar having been torn open. Thomas fought madly, with blind, brute strength. But the other lay wrapped on him like a white steel, his rare intelligence concentrated, not scattered; concentrated on strangling Thomas swiftly. He pressed forward, forcing his landlord's head over the edge of the next flight of stairs. Thomas, stout and full-blooded, lost every trace of self-possession; he struggled like an animal at slaughter. The blood came out of his nose over his face; he made horrid choking sounds as he struggled.

Suddenly Severn felt his face turned between two hands. With a shock of real agony, he met the eyes of Kate. She bent forward, she captured his eyes.

"What do you think you're doing?" she cried in frenzy of indignation. She leaned over him in her night-dress, her two black plaits hanging perpendicular. He hid his face, and took his hands away. As he kneeled to rise, he glanced up the stairs. Mrs. Thomas stood against the banisters, motionless in a trance of horror and remorse. He saw the remorse plainly. Severn turned away his face, and was wild with shame. He saw his landlord kneeling, his hands at his throat, choking, rattling, and gasping. The young man's heart filled with remorse and grief. He put his arms round the heavy man, and raised him, saying tenderly:

"Let me help you up."

He had got Thomas up against the wall, when the choked man began to slide down again in collapse, gasping all the time pitifully.

"No, stand up; you're best standing up," commanded Severn sharply, rearing his landlord up again. Thomas managed to obey, stupidly. His nose still bled, he still held his throat and gasped with a crowing sound. But his breathing was getting deeper.

"Water, Kate--and sponge--cold," said Severn.

Kate was back in an instant. The young man bathed his landlord's face and temples and throat. The bleeding ceased directly, the stout man's breathing became a series of irregular, jerky gasps, like a child that has been sobbing hard. At last he took a long breath, and his breast settled into regular stroke, with little fluttering interruptions. Still holding his hand to his throat, he looked up with dazed, piteous brown eyes, mutely wretched and appealing. He moved his tongue as if to try it, put back his head a little, and moved the muscles of his throat. Then he replaced his hands on the place that ached.

Severn was grief-stricken. He would willingly, at that moment, have given his right hand for the man he had hurt.

Mrs. Thomas, meanwhile, stood on the stairs, watching: for a long time she dared not move, knowing she would sink down. She watched. One of the crises of her life was passing. Full of remorse, she passed over into the bitter land of repentance. She must no longer allow herself to hope for anything for herself. The rest of her life must be spent in self-abnegation: she must seek for no sympathy, must ask for no grace in love, no grace and harmony in living. Henceforward, as far as her own desires went, she was dead. She took a fierce joy in the anguish of it.

"Do you feel better?" Severn asked of the sick man. Thomas looked at the questioner with tragic brown eyes, in which was no anger, only mute self-pity. He did not answer, but looked like a wounded animal, very pitiable. Mrs. Thomas quickly repressed an impulse of impatient scorn, replacing it with a numb, abstract sense of duty, lofty and cold.

Well, the fight, as most fight scenes, is comic. This is particularly funny, even slapstick:

The young man had never been struck in the face before. He instantly went white and mad with rage. Thomas stood on guard, fists up. But on the small, lumbered landing there was no room for fight. Moreover, Severn had no instinct of fisticuffs. With open, stiff fingers, the young man sprang on his adversary. In spite of the blow he received, but did not feel, he flung himself again forward, and then, catching Thomas's collar, brought him down with a crash. Instantly his exquisite hands were dug in the other's thick throat, the linen collar having been torn open.
James Bond or Sam Spade they're not. :lol: But Severn by chance it seems comes out on top, and then he meets Kate:

Suddenly Severn felt his face turned between two hands. With a shock of real agony, he met the eyes of Kate. She bent forward, she captured his eyes.

"What do you think you're doing?" she cried in frenzy of indignation. She leaned over him in her night-dress, her two black plaits hanging perpendicular. He hid his face, and took his hands away.
I can understand her being shocked, but why indignation? And what exactly are "two black plaits hanging perpendicular?" Given that she's in her night dress, I can't help thinking it's her breasts. :lol: But I guess it's clothing or her hair? :confused: And then we get Mrs Thomas who is shocked at the fight and actually paralized from responding:

As he kneeled to rise, he glanced up the stairs. Mrs. Thomas stood against the banisters, motionless in a trance of horror and remorse. He saw the remorse plainly.
I can understand why Severn is remorseful, but why Mrs. Thomas? The only thing I can think of is that subconsciously she too wished this to happen. What do you guys think on that point? I can't remember anything specific where she wished her husband harm, but I do think she was antogonistic toward him. And then Lawrence expands on Mrs. Thomas's remorse:

Mrs. Thomas, meanwhile, stood on the stairs, watching: for a long time she dared not move, knowing she would sink down. She watched. One of the crises of her life was passing. Full of remorse, she passed over into the bitter land of repentance. She must no longer allow herself to hope for anything for herself. The rest of her life must be spent in self-abnegation: she must seek for no sympathy, must ask for no grace in love, no grace and harmony in living. Henceforward, as far as her own desires went, she was dead. She took a fierce joy in the anguish of it.
Again repentance for what? She didn't drop the trunk. Lawrence even raises whatever she's guilty of to a level of a major sin: "The rest of her life must be spent in self-abnegation: she must seek for no sympathy, must ask for no grace in love, no grace and harmony in living. Henceforward, as far as her own desires went, she was dead." So what exactly did she do to reach this level of guilt? Her sexual desire for Severn? Her secret desire to punish her husband? I don't know. Frankly whatever I think it's too much of a stretch, even for those that believe in the psychobabble. And one more reaction from Mrs. Thomas:

"Do you feel better?" Severn asked of the sick man. Thomas looked at the questioner with tragic brown eyes, in which was no anger, only mute self-pity. He did not answer, but looked like a wounded animal, very pitiable. Mrs. Thomas quickly repressed an impulse of impatient scorn, replacing it with a numb, abstract sense of duty, lofty and cold.
Is the scorn directed at Severn or her husband ? I think it's for Severn, as we see in the paragraphs ahead. It's interesting to see the transition of Mrs. Thomas's reactons to the fight and the aftermath.

Quark

06-18-2008, 09:40 PM

In response to the pestering from the peanut gallery,:p I'm posting the next section of the story.

Thanks, Virgil. I was wondering how I was going to get back into the conversation.

Given that she's in her night dress, I can't help thinking it's her breasts. :lol: But I guess it's clothing or her hair? :confused:

Plaits = boobs? I don't think so. It's her hair. Now that's clear, I have to go over to the Aenead thread and respond to your comments on Book VI and female genitalia.

I can understand why Severn is remorseful, but why Mrs. Thomas? The only thing I can think of is that subconsciously she too wished this to happen. What do you guys think on that point?

She's been stringing along this other guy who she no intentions of accepting. If she had been straight-forward with Severn, none of this would have happened. That's why she reacts that way to the fight. I think it may be an overreaction, but it's clear that's why she reacts that way.

Is the scorn directed at Severn or her husband ? I think it's for Severn, as we see in the paragraphs ahead. It's interesting to see the transition of Mrs. Thomas's reactons to the fight and the aftermath.

It's pointed at her husband. Gertie is aware of how poorly her husband has acted through this episode, and she's feels contempt for him.

Janine

06-18-2008, 09:48 PM

Oh, no the moth is back. I can't resist answering this part. You are so funny, Virgil!

t exactly are "two black plaits hanging perpendicular?" Given that she's in her night dress, I can't help thinking it's her breasts. But I guess it's clothing or her hair? And then we get Mrs Thomas who is shocked at the fight and actually paralized from responding:

Plaits are braids in the hair silly - like two braided pigtails - no not breats! What are we going to do with you Virgil? You men don't know anything about women! :lol; Many women braided their hair to retire to bed, if their hair was long. I thought the 'two black braids hanging perpendicular" really made that part more humorous, amusing. I think at that point I laughed out loud.

I thought her repentence was for egging Severn on and especially that remark during the thunderstorm - the one that made him wake up and take notice and wonder about. Then too at the table when Mr.Thomas came home she was obviously siding with Severn or trying to. I guess she would have remorse for suggesting something sexual towards Severn and also for being snide when her husband was telling his story about being praised at his meeting.

Actually, I prefer to be called the butterfly!;) Moths are so ordinaray and they eat wool clothes.

Dark Muse

06-18-2008, 10:26 PM

Well, the fight, as most fight scenes, is comic. This is particularly funny, even slapstick

Yes the fight was quite amusing

I can understand her being shocked, but why indignation?

I think perhaps she might feel indignation over the fact that these two grown men are behaving like children, and perhaps a part of her feels Severn at least should no better, as it was established that this sort of thing is out of his character, and he is more of the intellectual and the "civilized"

I can understand why Severn is remorseful, but why Mrs. Thomas? The only thing I can think of is that subconsciously she too wished this to happen. What do you guys think on that point? I can't remember anything specific where she wished her husband harm, but I do think she was antagonistic toward him. And then Lawrence expands on Mrs. Thomas's remorse:

I felt that after seeing the fight, and seeing Mr. Thomas physically injured, caused within her feelings of guilt for her own treatment of her husband, and perhaps for the way she acted with Severn. It was perhaps a slap in the face to her, to actually see the joking physically manifested in this form.

Again repentance for what? She didn't drop the trunk. Lawrence even raises whatever she's guilty of to a level of a major sin: "The rest of her life must be spent in self-abnegation: she must seek for no sympathy, must ask for no grace in love, no grace and harmony in living. Henceforward, as far as her own desires went, she was dead." So what exactly did she do to reach this level of guilt? Her sexual desire for Severn? Her secret desire to punish her husband?

I felt that it was referring to some desire she had for Severn and her preference for him over her own husband. When I had first read this scene, I felt almost as if perhaps at least subconsciously both Severn and Mrs. Thomas, had this ideal that if something were to happen to Mr. Thomas, the two of them would just live happily ever after more or less, though when the possibility was actually played out with the potential for Mr. Thomas to have been seriously hurt, it came as too much of a shock to Mrs. Thomas.

And I think it was just not possible for Mrs. Thomas to have any kind of relationship with both men. For her she had to choose one or the other, and previously she had tried to live in both worlds more or less, but in the end, she choose to sacrifice herself by severing her tie with Severn and giving her devotion to her husband.

Virgil

06-19-2008, 07:15 AM

Virgil is commenting on female genitalia somewhere on this board?

Unfortunately yes. :blush: On the Aeneid thread.

I don’t agree with Quark that Mrs. Thomas has been stringing Severn along, though I do think the two were attracted to each other, possibly with primitive animalistic passion, during the thunderstorm.
I agree with Anti. Whatever sexual tension was going on appears to be a momentary thing. At least we get no indication of something going on for a longer term.

I also don’t think she subconsciously wanted the accident to happen (and I do think some things are just accidents, I don’t subscribe to the Freudian poppycock that “there are no accidents,” sure there are), however I do agree with Virgil that she’d been so antagonistic towards Joe that evening, she would feel remorseful.
I admit we have no indication of a subconscious desire to hurt her husband. I was just specualting.

I don’t know what Lawrence had in mind, what he felt was going through the minds of his characters, but I didn’t see Mrs. Thomas do anything that required this level of repentance. Perhaps I just missed it. It wouldn’t be the first time. LOL
Actually I had not noticed Mrs. Thomas's reaction in my other reads. Only now do I see this and I wonder too what is going on. She has nothing to be guilty of, certainly not on the surface of things. One would have to believe that Lawrence meant for something to be going on in her subconscious.

I didn’t feel Joe acted that poorly, given what had happened. I think I may be the only one who actually likes Joe.
Joe's reaction is quite understandable, both on the surface (someone dropping a trunk on your head) and on the subconscious level (someone having desires on your wife). I like Joe. I dubbed him affectionately the neanderthal. :D

Can you believe the men, Janine? Not even knowing that plaits are braids? LOL I laughed at this part, too. It’s very funny. I agree.
Did you laugh at me not knowing they were braids or me thinking they were breasts. :lol:

I thought her repentance was for the way she’d treated Severn earlier in the evening, too. And for the way she’s treated Joe. It seemed like she was trying to pit the men against each other. Stir the pot, then stand back and see what boils over. I agree that she feels bad for that. Maybe Lawrence wanted to redeem her in our eyes? I don’t know.
That could be, though her guilt seems way beyond that transaction.

I didn’t feel the attraction was ever more than momentary, so I don’t feel that Gertie and Edward ever felt they could live happily ever after if something were to happen to Joe, but I do think Gertie got a lot of amusement out of baiting the two men and now feels very remorseful about it.
I agree.

Virgil

06-19-2008, 11:44 AM

Actually, both. They’re long and black, Virgil! LOL I have to wonder what kind of mental picture you got when reading. ;)

Black? Hmm, they could have been bruised. :lol:

Actually that is an interesting paragraph to look at carefully:

"What do you think you're doing?" she cried in frenzy of indignation. She leaned over him in her night-dress, her two black plaits hanging perpendicular. He hid his face, and took his hands away. As he kneeled to rise, he glanced up the stairs. Mrs. Thomas stood against the banisters, motionless in a trance of horror and remorse. He saw the remorse plainly. Severn turned away his face, and was wild with shame. He saw his landlord kneeling, his hands at his throat, choking, rattling, and gasping. The young man's heart filled with remorse and grief. He put his arms round the heavy man, and raised him, saying tenderly:

"Let me help you up."
What exactly is Severn hiding his face from? And why did she lean over him? What's also iinteresting is that Severn starts talking tenderly to Mr. Thomas. Given the next section, which i haven't posted yet, I can't help feeling that Severn becomes more feamle in his nature, almost taking over for the wife. Just a thought.

Janine

06-19-2008, 03:14 PM

Black? Hmm, they could have been bruised. :lol:

:lol:Why so, nobody dropped a trunk on her? Or maybe Virgil, you could look for a phallic symbol in those braids.;) :lol:

What exactly is Severn hiding his face from? And why did she lean over him? What's also iinteresting is that Severn starts talking tenderly to Mr. Thomas. Given the next section, which i haven't posted yet, I can't help feeling that Severn becomes more feamle in his nature, almost taking over for the wife. Just a thought.

First question - shame at his rash actions perhaps? Choking someone would not be something to be too proud of.

Second question - I think he is down by the floor, when trying to choke poor Mr. Thomas. She would have to lean over to get close to his face.

Third statement: isn't that the irony in the story and the point - his turning sides and now sympathising with the husband?

Taking over the wife's role - interesting and I think it is somewhat true here; Severn certainly becomes nurturing. I think he was kind of nurturing already with the child. I just hope he does not grow plaits; long black ones at that!:lol: ....or any other female body parts.....hummm.....

I think Mrs. Thomas is appalled and ashamed of Severn for trying to choke Mr. Thomas. The dropping of the trunk seems incidental to me - certainly they all did not anticipate that happening and only for a split second or two it ran as a thought through Severn's mind since it says something about he knew he liked to be somewhat reckless and take chances. I think any one could be quilty of thinking something would happen and then it actually happening. I laughed once when a friend of mine fell off her bike right near the curb. I know it is terrible now, but she was crawling across this road with her bike dragging behind her, a dozen cars held with people just looking at her in wonder. She was not hurt and the scene was too funny to contain myself. I know; I am awful! She was mad at me for awhile, but the laugh just popped out, uncontrollably; of course then I ran to her aid.

I can see how that would have happened in this instance. I don't think Severn meant to laugh. This instance in this story, also reminds me of my son when he was young. His friend had this girlfriend who was friends with my son, also. One day the guy stopped by and they were both here at my house; the guy got extremely jealous thinking my son was interested in his girl - so they started to duke it out outside my house. My neighbor had to break it up. After that incident, they were even closer friends. I think the girl departed not long after.

Virgil and Quark, you men are hard to figure out. Is fighting a kind of bonding ritual?

Virgil

06-19-2008, 04:13 PM

Virgil [/B]and Quark, you men are hard to figure out. Is fighting a kind of bonding ritual?

I think it is, Janine.

I don't know about men, but there are two women right here who fought and now seem to have bonded. :lol:

Janine

06-19-2008, 05:15 PM

:lol: OMG, I been thinking the same thing - about this 'bonding thingie'! :lol:

I will write you an email soon, Anti! *smile*; at least we did not choke each other in real life - just cyberspace! *grin*

I have to go and see baby Brooke now....I can't wait to hold her again.

Janine

06-20-2008, 12:34 AM

Or push each other down the stairs. :lol: I'm especially glad of that because I've fallen down stairs twice this summer. Lucky I didn't break anything and came away unscathed. :lol:

Horrors, I would never do that, nor would I choke someone! You better be careful though - falling down stairs, can be downright dangerous - you can get hurt, silly! Slow-up...

Email anytime. Always welcome.

Enjoy your visit with Brooke. I know how much that means to you. Have fun!

Thanks, Antiquarian, we need entirely new emoticons on this site - less hostile ones - take away those angry red faces and replace them with a big hug or handshake. I know we both can still be good friends.;) Hey, what is it with this Lawrence guy?...he seems to stir people up. :lol: I actually think Lawrence made a comment about that once - that people should get stirred up. I will have to find that comment and post it. In retrospect, it might make a few of us really laugh; including the mods.

Seeing Brooke again was like heaven. She is soooo adorable. She grew some and her pretty eyes were open a lot tonight. I will tell you more about the visit and how sweet she is in my email, Anti. I am so happy now to have seen her. She is precious.

Virgil

06-20-2008, 08:18 AM

Ok, here's the last section of the story:

"Come," said Severn, full of pity, and gentle as a woman. "Let me help you to bed."

Thomas, leaning heavily on the young man, whose white garments were dabbed with blood and water, stumbled forlornly into his room. There Severn unlaced his boots and got off the remnant of his collar. At this point Mrs. Thomas came in. She had taken her part; she was weeping also.

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.

He locked up the house, put everything in order. Then he heated some water to bathe his face, which was swelling painfully. Having finished his fomentations, he sat thinking bitterly, with a good deal of shame.

As he sat, Mrs. Thomas came down for something. Her bearing was cold and hostile. She glanced round to see all was safe. Then:

"You will put out the light when you go to bed, Mr. Severn," she said, more formally than a landlady at the seaside would speak. He was insulted: any ordinary being would turn off the light on retiring. Moreover, almost every night it was he who locked up the house, and came last to bed.

"I will, Mrs. Thomas," he answered. He bowed, his eyes flickering with irony, because he knew his face was swollen.

She returned again after having reached the landing.

"Perhaps you wouldn't mind helping me down with the box," she said, quietly and coldly. He did not reply, as he would have done an hour before, that he certainly should not help her, because it was a man's job, and she must not do it. Now, he rose, bowed, and went upstairs with her. Taking the greater part of the weight, he came quickly downstairs with the load.

"Thank you; it's very good of you. Good-night," said Mrs. Thomas, and she retired.

In the morning Severn rose late. His face was considerably swollen. He went in his dressing-gown across to Thomas's room. The other man lay in bed, looking much the same as ever, but mournful in aspect, though pleased within himself at being coddled.

"How are you this morning?" Severn asked.

Thomas smiled, looked almost with tenderness up at his friend.

"Oh, I'm all right, thanks," he replied.

He looked at the other's swollen and bruised cheek, then again, affectionately, into Severn's eyes.

"I'm sorry"--with a glance of indication--"for that," he said simply. Severn smiled with his eyes, in his own winsome manner.

"I didn't know we were such essential brutes," he said. "I thought I was so civilised . . ."

Again he smiled, with a wry, stiff mouth. Thomas gave a deprecating little grunt of a laugh.

"Oh, I don't know," he said. "It shows a man's got some fight in him."

He looked up in the other's face appealingly. Severn smiled, with a touch of bitterness. The two men grasped hands.

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one towards the other. On the other hand, Mrs. Thomas was only polite and formal with Severn, treating him as if he were a stranger.

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", passed out of their three lives.

There's actually a lot here I think to discuss. We see more catagorically that Severn has taken a female role: "Come," said Severn, full of pity, and gentle as a woman. "Let me help you to bed." It's no accident that he's taking him to bed. And we have the blood coming out of Mr. Thomas and onto Severn, a symbolic loss of shared innoence. I still find Mrs. Thomas's behavior odd:

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.
Why is she thanking him? He just beat up her husband? And again we see her seeking a sort of redemption for guilt. It has to be a sort of subconscious guilt because I still don't see what exactly she is guilty of. And she gets extremely formal with Severn. Whatever sexual tension had existed is long gone.

"You will put out the light when you go to bed, Mr. Severn," she said, more formally than a landlady at the seaside would speak. He was insulted: any ordinary being would turn off the light on retiring. Moreover, almost every night it was he who locked up the house, and came last to bed.
It's as if she felt guilty for her subconscous "flirting" (or was it more than flirting?) with Severn and now better be on the most strictest of decorum.

Here's an interesting thing:

"Perhaps you wouldn't mind helping me down with the box," she said, quietly and coldly. He did not reply, as he would have done an hour before, that he certainly should not help her, because it was a man's job, and she must not do it. Now, he rose, bowed, and went upstairs with her. Taking the greater part of the weight, he came quickly downstairs with the load.
Before the fight he would not have had Mrs Thomas help him with the trunk "because it was a man's job." Wasn't Severn the one arguing for women's rights earlier that evening? But what's really curious is that in helping him, Mrs. Thomas takes on the man's role. Mr. Thomas was just heard to be sobbing (some neanderthal! :lol: ) and now his wife is doing his work, and Severn has just been taking on the role of a woman. It's all rather odd, and I'm not sure what significance it has. But Lawrence does use this sort of swapping of gender roles frequently in his works.

And then in the morning, the two men meet at Thomas' bed:

In the morning Severn rose late. His face was considerably swollen. He went in his dressing-gown across to Thomas's room. The other man lay in bed, looking much the same as ever, but mournful in aspect, though pleased within himself at being coddled.

"How are you this morning?" Severn asked.

Thomas smiled, looked almost with tenderness up at his friend.

"Oh, I'm all right, thanks," he replied.

He looked at the other's swollen and bruised cheek, then again, affectionately, into Severn's eyes.
Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

And then the conclusion:

He looked up in the other's face appealingly. Severn smiled, with a touch of bitterness. The two men grasped hands. The experience concludes with bitterness and satisfaction, an experience which has pushed the two beyond innocence, at least for Severn.

And then the tag ending, which I think is superfluous, but nonetheless there:

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one towards the other. On the other hand, Mrs. Thomas was only polite and formal with Severn, treating him as if he were a stranger.

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", passed out of their three lives.
Perhaps the three lives have changed. Mrs. Thomas again lives with proper decorum.

Dark Muse

06-20-2008, 12:32 PM

Why is she thanking him? He just beat up her husband? And again we see her seeking a sort of redemption for guilt. It has to be a sort of subconscious guilt because I still don't see what exactly she is guilty of. And she gets extremely formal with Severn. Whatever sexual tension had existed is long gone.

The way in which she said "Thank you" and the fact that it caused Severn to slink out of the room feeling dismissed, I do not think it was exzactly warm and genuine thanks or true feeling of gratitude. I did not find it that odd, but she probably saw no point in scolding Severn or cotninuing hostility further, as he was already remoseful for what he did. I think her thanks was just a curt and polite response to his tending to her husband after the fight. But I do not think she was expressing any real gratitiude.

It's as if she felt guilty for her subconscous "flirting" (or was it more than flirting?) with Severn and now better be on the most strictest of decorum.

Yes, I think she was feeling guilty for the way in which she carried on with Severn, and perhaps for the way she had previously treated her husband.

Before the fight he would not have had Mrs Thomas help him with the trunk "because it was a man's job." Wasn't Severn the one arguing for women's rights earlier that evening? But what's really curious is that in helping him, Mrs. Thomas takes on the man's role. Mr. Thomas was just heard to be sobbing (some neanderthal! :lol: ) and now his wife is doing his work, and Severn has just been taking on the role of a woman. It's all rather odd, and I'm not sure what significance it has. But Lawrence does use this sort of swapping of gender roles frequently in his works.

I always felt that Severn's views toward women and women rights were a bit sketchy and contradictory to start with. It seems there were many occasions in which he was changing his poistion and his views. Though he will verbally argue for women, his actions and thoughts do not always support that. As well it was when Mrs. Thomas, was "the damsel in distress" with the storm, showing her vulnrablity that Severn seemed most moved by her.

I also think here Severn is just too much in a state of shock to think of such things.

But it is odd, the way in which Severn has come now to take more of a woman's role. Though I do think that Mrs. Thomas, always from the begining wore the pants in the family so to speak.

Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

Janine

06-20-2008, 03:42 PM

The way in which she said "Thank you" and the fact that it caused Severn to slink out of the room feeling dismissed, I do not think it was exzactly warm and genuine thanks or true feeling of gratitude. I did not find it that odd, but she probably saw no point in scolding Severn or cotninuing hostility further, as he was already remoseful for what he did. I think her thanks was just a curt and polite response to his tending to her husband after the fight. But I do not think she was expressing any real gratitiude.

Dark Muse,I think for once I am totally agreeing with you; will wonders ever cease on this thread? hehehe.

I agree, I think Mrs. Thomas is merely removing herself from the circle or triangle of the three and now standing back and viewing their actions. She also must be in some shock, seeing Severn choking her husband and now coming to his aid. Who would not be in shock at such a scene? I think she is merely being polite and trying to keep hold of the peace as well. Of course no one would want anymore confrontations at this point. Remember too that Kate had to come and intervene and break it up.

Yes, I think she was feeling guilty for the way in which she carried on with Severn, and perhaps for the way she had previously treated her husband.

I think so too. I think now she can see it is serious business and not something to toy with. Before, during the thunderstorm she was kind of toying with Severn and that even extended to the table when the two seemed to be snickering at her husband's story telling. Another thing to keep in mind, is even if the man has a dull job, or is 'puffed up' about his position; probably he is just the opposite in reality - feels somewhat 'insecure' about himself. To keep in mind, is that he is the bread-winner here; so even if, Mrs. Thomas wears the pants, so to speak in the household, the man wears them at his serious profession.

I always felt that Severn's views toward women and women rights were a bit sketchy and contradictory to start with. It seems there were many occasions in which he was changing his poistion and his views. Though he will verbally argue for women, his actions and thoughts do not always support that. As well it was when Mrs. Thomas, was "the damsel in distress" with the storm, showing her vulnrablity that Severn seemed most moved by her.

That actually, sounds like a good description of Lawrence himself. He often contradicted himself or seemed to. It is something of great debate among scholars. It is no wonder, that it does surface in his writing often. His fears about women go deep and back to his childhood/boyhood, with his 'overbearing mother' influence. That is a whole territory, in itself, to talk about. I think if you read "Sons and Lovers", you would get the idea. In that novel also, Clara's husband and Paul come to blows and then after have a similar type bonding, with Paul nurturing Clara's husband; then Clara seems to stand asside. The men form the bond and the woman is left outside, as Mrs. Thomas is here. In the play, I just saw on DVD, the Widowing of "Mrs. Holroyd", a very similar dynamic occurs, both in the middle of the play and at the end. In the middle the two men - young male and the husband come to blows and then the husband passes out from drinking; the younger man asks for a basin and cleans the face and hair of the older man, thus a kind of bonding; although the husband is unaware of this action. The younger man states he is doing it because he would want him to do so towards him, if circumstances were reversed. I don't want to give away the ending of the play, so I won't say how that reflects this idea as well.

I also think here Severn is just too much in a state of shock to think of such things.

I agree. I don't in one minute think this bonding is sexual in nature. It is more like the bonding we saw in "The Blind Man" and other stories with males bonding or understanding each other.

But it is odd, the way in which Severn has come now to take more of a woman's role. Though I do think that Mrs. Thomas, always from the begining wore the pants in the family so to speak.

I addressed this above. In the house I would agree; but the husband is the true bread-winner, although she has the care of the house and children, which can be just as tough, if not more so.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

DM, you stated this very well; I agree wholeheartedly with this idea of the Blutbrüderschaft (you must have looked up this word's spelling ;) ;I would not even attempt it ). Even the mention of blood indicates this idea, doesn't it? Virgil pointed that out; I had not thought much about that on a conscious level.

Quote by Antiquarian

She’s a bit too remorseful, isn’t she? Perhaps Lawrence was just highlighting the fact that “the old Adam” exists in all of us. I mean, he husband could have been killed. He wasn’t seriously injured, but it could have gone the other way.

I agree. I think though more was going on earlier, that did not meet the eye; I think that most likely Mrs. Thomas admired and felt some attraction towards Severn - sort of like in a fantasy way; not acted on or even thinking to act on. One can dream and certainly look; she had eyes and saw his appeal.
I think this stair scene has totally put an end to Mrs. Thomas' dreams or fantasies. It has brought her quite down to earth and back to the reality of her situation of being married, with children to think about as well. It is a harsh awakening for her.

Originally Posted by Virgil

Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

Quote by Antiquarian

I know nothing about Lawrence’s sexual preferences, but in this story, I see this as just male bonding, not homosexual in any way.

I agree with Dark Muse and Antiquarian here; I don't see this as a sexual bonding; I see it just as Dark Muse has stated above about the 'blood-brotherhood.' I also think suddenly Mr. Thomas, who was kind of cocky earlier has been cowed by the whole confrontation. Now he is like the wife was during the thunderstorm - vulnerable and in a weakened state - therefore Severn takes over to nurture him and coddle him back to health. This begins the male bonding between them. Mr. Thomas becomes the underdog but Severn also demoted himself by giving into his own primal instincts to fight the man back and then go as far as try to choke him. This put them both on more level ground so they could bond. In their bonding, Mrs. Thomas is naturally excluded.

One thing I did notice was that Severn “bowed” to Mrs. Thomas several times. That indicates his subjugation to the female sex, I think.

I think that is true also. Good observation, Antiquarian.

All in all, it was a comedic story with much deeper, darker undertones. I thought it was very good.

Exactly as I see it, also.

Quote by Antiquarian

I’m glad you had a great time, Janine and I look forward to hearing about it. I'm sure Brooke is just gorgeous.

Thanks, Anti, Yes, she is soooooo adorable. I keep thinking of her and holding her so long last night as she slept. She is precious. Can't wait to show you new photos; some she is looking around with her big beautiful eyes. You know how grandmas are! I need a 'Brag Book'.:D

Dark Muse

06-20-2008, 05:38 PM

Dark Muse,I think for once I am totally agreeing with you; will wonders ever cease on this thread? hehehe.

Yes, it is getting scary.

DM, you stated this very well; I agree wholeheartedly with this idea of the Blutbrüderschaft (you must have looked up this word's spelling ;) ;I would not even attempt it ). Even the mention of blood indicates this idea, doesn't it? Virgil pointed that out; I had not thought much about that on a conscious level.\

Hehe yes, I did have to look up how to spell the word.

Yes, that is true, I did not think of that, but Virgil did point out the exchange of blood between Severn and Mr. Thomas, which could be a physical manifestation of the blood-brotherhood, as it is after this they are able to become great friends to each other.

I also felt that his moment was a long time building, as previously it mentioned that the men were often hostile to each other. I think they just needed this release of energy and emotion. It freed something in themselves. Perhaps there was resentment on the part of Mr. Thomas, and perhaps Severn felt he had to challenge the older man to try and establish some dominance of his own.

But after it was over, there differences were settled. I think this is common in men. That after one large blow out, they are more able to reconcile with each other and put there differences behind them. Where I think it is more typical of women to hold grudges and be slower to come to a complete reconciliation.

I addressed this above. In the house I would agree; but the husband is the true bread-winner, although she has the care of the house and children, which can be just as tough, if not more so.

Yes he is the bread-winner, but by "wear the pants" when I use the phrase I meant mainly that she more or less was the "boss" it seems to me that the household is at her beck and call. Both Severn and Mr. Thomas, it is stated are "humble to her" so Mr. Thomas might make the money, but Mrs. Thomas rules the roost so to speak. It is because of her that Kate is leaving, and her decision on that goes unchallenged by both of the men. Though we do not know what Mr. Thomas might have thought of Kate, we can see the authority of Mrs. Thomas in that action.

As well we can see in the dinner seen when Mr. Thomas comes home, Mrs. Thomas is not excaztly a doting wife. She already had supper and leaves him to sit and eat alone, and she verbally chastizes him. In the household he does not seem to really hold any power.

Virgil

06-20-2008, 08:55 PM

I know nothing about Lawrence’s sexual preferences, but in this story, I see this as just male bonding, not homosexual in any way.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

I agree. I don't in one minute think this bonding is sexual in nature. It is more like the bonding we saw in "The Blind Man" and other stories with males bonding or understanding each other.

I agree with the three of you. It's just there are a number of these in Lawrence's works, and some go beyond the affection of this story. How about the male nude wrestling scene in Women In Love? It's something that's discussed by lawrence scholars. I can never make heads or tails of it.

On the other question, I see Mrs. Thomas's change at the end as a shutting off of the pre-civilization instinct. The layer of civilization has won out, and she never flirts with any subconscious instincts again. As to the men, they seem to have understood that old adam instinct and are not traumatized by it at all. Only Mrs. Thomas. If I were writing an essay on this story, I would interpret the scenes by the conflict between a civilized layer at odds with a pre-civilization instincts.

It was a good story, though I still think the early scenes are flawed in the total context of the story. The implied relationship of those scenes to the central core of the story in tenuous. But I am continually overwhelmed by Lawrence's writing skills.

Janine

06-20-2008, 09:59 PM

I agree with the three of you. It's just there are a number of these in Lawrence's works, and some go beyond the affection of this story. How about the male nude wrestling scene in Women In Love? It's something that's discussed by lawrence scholars. I can never make heads or tails of it.

On the other question, I see Mrs. Thomas's change at the end as a shutting off of the pre-civilization instinct. The layer of civilization has won out, and she never flirts with any subconscious instincts again. As to the men, they seem to have understood that old adam instinct and are not traumatized by it at all. Only Mrs. Thomas. If I were writing an essay on this story, I would interpret the scenes by the conflict between a civilized layer at odds with a pre-civilization instincts.

It was a good story, though I still think the early scenes are flawed in the total context of the story. The implied relationship of those scenes to the central core of the story in tenuous. But I am continually overwhelmed by Lawrence's writing skills.

Virgil, I would say we need Lawrence here in the flesh, to help us interpret his work. Remember that thread - "Bring Them Back From the Grave"...wow, that would apply with this story. We could all sit around sipping English tea and say humm, Bert, now what exactly was your intention in having black plaits hanging down from Kate's head; or early on in the story, why did they all appear to take interest in that train outside? Why is Kate really leaving? Why this and why that?.... Well, you get the picture - we all would flood poor Bert with a zillion and one questions! :D

I too am still totally amazed at Lawrence's writing skills and genius - it is overwhelming at times - good word!

I agree with you, about civilized verses pre-civilized; hey, Virgil, you should write a second thesis on that theme.

I just watched part of that scene on You Tube today. One of the offerings was in Spanish - now that was truly different. I do love that scene, (it is so well done and so well photographed), but I never know exactly what to make of it either, in the film or the novel. I think that is a definite example of male bonding at it's deepest point, although it is not a sexual scene at all. I think there again, they do battle with each other as a game/sport; but some of the wrestling is pretty intense and even barbaric. I think this scene epitomises the idea of the return to pre-civilization and the primal instincts within the male. I do think there is a sort of attempt at bonding, but it is unsucessful in the long run. In this scene the bonding is temporary and uneven. For Rupert it seems to exist; for Gerald it is questionable; only an idea that he can't quite grasp.

Quark

06-20-2008, 10:54 PM

Actually I had not noticed Mrs. Thomas's reaction in my other reads. Only now do I see this and I wonder too what is going on. She has nothing to be guilty of, certainly not on the surface of things. One would have to believe that Lawrence meant for something to be going on in her subconscious.

The physical pain she might not have meant, but the confrontation she definitely had in mind. Everyone doesn't like the phrase "string along" so I'll avoid it, but clearly she's controlling the situation. First, she ignores her husband to rile him up. Then, she supports her husband to make Severn angry.

If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.
As the conversation heats up, Lawrence points out that the wife lets it get out of control.

The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it.
Then, she gets the two men together so they can have their confrontation.

"Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box?"
Lawrence continues to put the wife in a position of leadership and control.

Mrs. Thomas was quite mistress of the situation; both men were humble before her. She led the way, with a candle, to the third floor.
And,

Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

Whether this is conscious or subconscious is immaterial. It's clear that the wife is orchestrating the episode. She's perhaps more involved in the fight than the two combatants. That's why she's ashamed.

Virgil

06-20-2008, 11:07 PM

Quark

06-20-2008, 11:11 PM

One can only attribute it to subconscious, Quark. There is nothing in the text to warrant your claim that "the confrontation she definitely had in mind" and "stinging along." I didn't think she was consciously stringing him along toward a confrontation.

Well it doesn't matter. That's what I say above. It's clear she was leading the two men no matter what she was aware of.

Edit:
I suppose more what I mean is that it doesn't matter whether she was conscious of her motive for controlling the two men. It does matter whether she's conscious of controlling them, and I think one can see from the quotes I posted above that she is conscious of controlling them. A woman cannot be "mistress of the situation" subconsciously, nor can she wound both men in the conversation subconsciously. It's shown that she does control the men consciously. Now, why she's controlling the men isn't clear. There very well could be a subconscious motive working inside of the wife. And, since the reader isn't privy to that motive, it's a good bet that the wife isn't either. Not being aware of the motive, however, does not absolve her from guilt. She's aware that her actions helped to cause the fight, and her motive for doing so is irrelevant.

Janine

06-21-2008, 04:18 PM

Sorry, I had to go way back to answer Dark Muse's post. It got buried a day or so ago (a page, too)

Yes, it is getting scary.

Boo!:lol:

Hehe yes, I did have to look up how to spell the word.

DM, I just cheated and copied and pasted yours into my post.:p

Yes, that is true, I did not think of that, but Virgil did point out the exchange of blood between Severn and Mr. Thomas, which could be a physical manifestation of the blood-brotherhood, as it is after this they are able to become great friends to each other.

And this blood exchange is often seen in Lawrence's work, even his novels. He would indicate the signifance of physically shedding blood to change or purge onself of the old ways. Perhaps in this story he is thinking of the blood being shed as a path back to the old ways - the Old Adam. In the book, "Women in Love", it is only after Birkin is struck on the head and sheds blood and runs into the wilderness to purge himself of the hypocrisy of the upper-classes and their falsity, that he he becomes a new man. He connects with nature and his own primal self. Perhaps he is also connecting with Adam before the expulsion from the "Garden of Eden." Here too the blood would serve two purposes - to free up both men so that their bond would tap into their more primal roles and their Old Adams.

I also felt that his moment was a long time building, as previously it mentioned that the men were often hostile to each other. I think they just needed this release of energy and emotion. It freed something in themselves. Perhaps there was resentment on the part of Mr. Thomas, and perhaps Severn felt he had to challenge the older man to try and establish some dominance of his own.

Apparently, the story suggests that, but from reading about the family Lawrence actually resided with (in two residences), and fashioned this story after, he did not get along poorly with the male. In fact, both the husband and wife liked Lawrence very much and found him quite amusing, at times. I think eventually, the whole scene did sour and Lawrence left the household, because of some strife involving a sort of triangle and jealousy. It may be his intention in this story, to show that they two men were antagnistic towards each other for a time; this I don't have a certainity about, only a very vague impression. The confrontation did definitely free them both up, even within themselves, as you say above. I am not sure about trying to establish a dominance over Mr.Thomas. I don't see that he achieves that at the end as much as an even ground.

But after it was over, there differences were settled. I think this is common in men. That after one large blow out, they are more able to reconcile with each other and put there differences behind them. Where I think it is more typical of women to hold grudges and be slower to come to a complete reconciliation.

Perhaps, DM - it does seem common, at least to me, concerning men. Yes, perhaps some women do hold grudges. I try never to do so; I think holding grudges is a waste of energy and time, and what is the point of it? I do think men are less emotional about things and therefore, can move on after a confrontation and forget it ever happened, or at least pretend to. My son is still friends, to this day, with that guy he had a confrontation with, over the girlfriend. I still laugh at it, but bring it up to my son, and he doesn't want to hear anything about it.

Yes he is the bread-winner, but by "wear the pants" when I use the phrase I meant mainly that she more or less was the "boss" it seems to me that the household is at her beck and call. Both Severn and Mr. Thomas, it is stated are "humble to her" so Mr. Thomas might make the money, but Mrs. Thomas rules the roost so to speak. It is because of her that Kate is leaving, and her decision on that goes unchallenged by both of the men. Though we do not know what Mr. Thomas might have thought of Kate, we can see the authority of Mrs. Thomas in that action.

Yes, I think the text does indicate that Mrs. Severn orchestrated the household. It would probably go back to how controlling Lawrence's own mother was, in his household when growing up. She pretty much did the same thing, trying to keep the house in balance and under her control.

This is still something I am unclear about. Does the text actually ever say, it was Mrs. Thomas' lone decision to expell Kate from the house? Do you know what part of the text states that as a solid fact?

As well we can see in the dinner seen when Mr. Thomas comes home, Mrs. Thomas is not excaztly a doting wife. She already had supper and leaves him to sit and eat alone, and she verbally chastizes him. In the household he does not seem to really hold any power.

Well, she may have supper for him but he did come home extremely late. I don't blame her for not doting on him. He was acting kind of childish himself and she has children to care for as it is. It seems she is quite annoyed at him for coming in late and maybe she does have some grounds for her annoyance. If it happened continually then she might know he is indeed not being truly honest with her. I felt he was not totally honest; perhaps he stopped off at a pub on the way home; this was often the case in households in England. He may hold some power in the fact he rebelled against her and came in when he felt like doing so. This might be his way of holding power for himself.

Quark

06-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Here too the blood would serve two purposes - to free up both men so that their bond would tap into their more primal roles and their Old Adams.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. The fight restores Severn and Mr. Thomas to their original friendly relationship. Lawrence tells us that

as a rule the two men were very friendly

The angry, combative postures they assume, therefore, are not natural. At first, Lawrence doesn't specify why they've changed. He only vaguely says

there came times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile.
Eventually, though, the reason becomes clear: Mrs. Thomas. We see this in the argument over Woman's Bill. Mr. Thomas brings up the topic as way of gaining the attention of his wife.

Presently Thomas, always courting his wife and insultingly overlooking Severn, raised a point of politics
This annoys Severn because now he's the one being ignored. If only Mrs. Thomas would agree with him, then he could be comfortable. This fight with words foreshadows the fight with fists, and we see that Mrs. Thomas is the one making the men combative. Lawrence even makes this explicit with sentences like:

It was surprising how friendly the two men were, as soon as they had something to do together, or when Mrs. Thomas was absent. Then they were comrades.
Mrs. Thomas excites them to a hatred that isn't natural. When the fight breaks out, though, they're doing something together which minimalizes Mrs. Thomas's role. That reunites them.

but from reading about the family Lawrence actually resided with (in two residences)

That's interesting. I didn't know all this about L's personal life. How autobiographical do you think the story is?

Yes, I think the text does indicate that Mrs. Severn orchestrated the household.

Mrs. Severn orchestrates the action within the story, but the story doesn't say much of anything about the lives of these characters outside of this point in time. A reader could extrapolate from what we know in this story, and decide that Mrs. Severn was always controlling. But, I think this would have to remain speculative. There's nothing I could find in the story which describes the household outside of this little bit we get.

This is still something I am unclear about. Does the text actually ever say, it was Mrs. Thomas' lone decision to expell Kate from the house? Do you know what part of the text states that as a solid fact?

I don't remember it ever saying who directly was responsible for her leaving, but it is implied that Mrs. Thomas is throwing her out. The last line

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", pased out of their three live.
So, it either has to be Mr. or Mrs. Thomas. There's no reason why Mr. Thomas would be throwing her out, however Mrs. Thomas could be throwing her out in a similar tiff like that the men are having. The text gives us little hints that make this seem probable. For example, Severn, who loses the fight for Mrs. Thomas and the fight itself, is connected with Kate, who loses out with Severn and her job. After Severn starts to lose in the fight, Lawrence explains that

With a shock of real agony, he met the eyes of Kate. She bent forward, she captured his eyes.
Severn and Kate connect at this moment because they are both suffering the same fate. Mr. Thomas is quarreling with Severn, just as Mrs. Thomas is quarreling with Kate. And, both Severn and Kate are being repulsed by their "betters."

Well, she may have supper for him but he did come home extremely late. I don't blame her for not doting on him. He was acting kind of childish himself and she has children to care for as it is. It seems she is quite annoyed at him for coming in late and maybe she does have some grounds for her annoyance.

It sounds like this is constant complain of Mrs. Thomas's. She tells Severn

"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."
Whether that makes her justified in being snippy with him when he gets home, I don't know. But, it does sound like Mr. Thomas has a problem with punctuality.

Janine

06-22-2008, 03:29 PM

Antiquarian, I feel badly. I think your post got lost a page or so ago - not sure anyone has answered it. I am going out with my mother - she needs me to take her to dinner. When I come back I will look into it. I guess I am back in the discussion; but may just take a break, except to reread yours and see if it needs response, until Virgil posts some more of the text - there is more, right? Anti, I hope you have been having a nice Sunday and hope your hubby is off from work.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's true. The fight restores Severn and Mr. Thomas to their original friendly relationship. Lawrence tells us that:

Quark, thanks for posting that statement. I had forgotten it did say that right in the actual text before the fight broke out.

The angry, combative postures they assume, therefore, are not natural. At first, Lawrence doesn't specify why they've changed. He only vaguely says

Well, not fighting wouldn't be natural, but in the Alpha and Beta male animal sense it might be. I guess the rivalry is active or evident in the fight; that would be animalistic in aspect; therefore, a natural response. I think Lawrence would have viewed it that way. There also may have been a friendliness; and yet, some shreds resentment on both sides. Hey, it happens sometimes, without us even being aware of it. Usually it comes out in the unwise manor, such as the sudden confrontation, physically. Remember, that these people are living together, and may just grate on each other's nerves at times.

Eventually, though, the reason becomes clear: Mrs. Thomas. We see this in the argument over Woman's Bill. Mr. Thomas brings up the topic as way of gaining the attention of his wife.

That may be the catalyst to cause the buildup of resentments and hostiliy that later is expressed in the fight. I don't believe it is the complete reason. Severn also might be somewhat annoyed/resentful about the expulsion of Kate from the household. Afterall, that would now place Severn on precarious ground as well, being below the statis of the husband and wife. He might have felt subconsiously threatened. The Thomas' would have the option to expell him as well anytime they pleased. They hold the power here.

This annoys Severn because now he's the one being ignored. If only Mrs. Thomas would agree with him, then he could be comfortable. This fight with words foreshadows the fight with fists, and we see that Mrs. Thomas is the one making the men combative. Lawrence even makes this explicit with sentences like:

This could further his feelings of insecurity - as though people are taking sides and he is now the one being left out; much as Kate is being left out of the household, after this evening. Yes, I do see parallels, to the two women at odds and the two men and it does seem Mrs. Thomas is making the two men turn against each other - she is causing or adding to this state of mind in each; therefore the verbal combat does forshadow the fight.

Mrs. Thomas excites them to a hatred that isn't natural. When the fight breaks out, though, they're doing something together which minimalizes Mrs. Thomas's role. That reunites them.

Now it does leave her completely out, even before they reconcile their differences.

That's interesting. I didn't know all this about L's personal life. How autobiographical do you think the story is?

I wrote about it in the introduction to this story.

Mrs. Severn orchestrates the action within the story, but the story doesn't say much of anything about the lives of these characters outside of this point in time. A reader could extrapolate from what we know in this story, and decide that Mrs. Severn was always controlling. But, I think this would have to remain speculative. There's nothing I could find in the story which describes the household outside of this little bit we get.

It is only a short story; same with Chekhov - don't we have to guess about that? Quark :lol: Don't you mean 'Mrs. Thomas' and not 'Mrs. Severn?':lol: Last story you kept calling the guy and gal husband and wife and they were only engaged.

I don't remember it ever saying who directly was responsible for her leaving, but it is implied that Mrs. Thomas is throwing her out. The last line
Thanks, that is helpful; yet it could indicate the married couple have conferred on that decision and then decided she must leave. Also, if Mrs Thomas and Kate were often antagonistic to each other perhaps the husband did take control and decide she must depart. There really is no solid evident within the boundries of this story that it was Mrs.Thomas' decision alone.

So, it either has to be Mr. or Mrs. Thomas. There's no reason why Mr. Thomas would be throwing her out, however Mrs. Thomas could be throwing her out in a similar tiff like that the men are having. The text gives us little hints that make this seem probable. For example, Severn, who loses the fight for Mrs. Thomas and the fight itself, is connected with Kate, who loses out with Severn and her job. After Severn starts to lose in the fight, Lawrence explains that

Like I said above, it could be either - or. My inclination would be to believe that Mrs. Thomas instigated Kate's removal. She probably did confer with the husband and so she is leaving the household. Yes, at the end, it seems that it brought Severn down to Kate's level. She showed her strength and power over him to stop the fight. He covered his face ashamed of his actions. If anything I think Kate was more dominent at this moment. Mrs. Thomas could not even be dominent enough to control the two men, and yet Kate handled the situation brillantly and with much strength of character.

Severn and Kate connect at this moment because they are both suffering the same fate. Mr. Thomas is quarreling with Severn, just as Mrs. Thomas is quarreling with Kate. And, both Severn and Kate are being repulsed by their "betters."

This I am not sure of. Is Severn being repulsed by his betters? How is Severn suffering the same fate as Kate?

It sounds like this is constant complain of Mrs. Thomas's. She tells Severn:

"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."

Whether that makes her justified in being snippy with him when he gets home, I don't know. But, it does sound like Mr. Thomas has a problem with punctuality.

I don't doubt he does and on a regular basis. That would make the wife rebell against his habitual lateness. I can't help relate this to Lawrence's own father who came in late night after night and missed many a dinner, because he had to stop off first at the local pub. That was common to some, in those days.

Quark

06-22-2008, 05:23 PM

There also may have been a friendliness; and yet, some shreds resentment on both sides. Hey, it happens sometimes, without us even being aware of it. Usually it comes out in the unwise manor, such as the sudden confrontation, physically. Remember, that these people are living together, and may just grate on each other's nerves at times.

It's possible they may have fought before, but it doesn't appear that they were every at each other's throat like this. This episode seems like an aberration in their usually peaceful relationship. The quotes I posted above indicate that, and what Lawrence tells us at the end also points that way.

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one toward the other.

That may be the catalyst to cause the buildup of resentments and hostiliy that later is expressed in the fight. I don't believe it is the complete reason. Severn also might be somewhat annoyed/resentful about the expulsion of Kate from the household.

That may be true, but I don't know why anyone would be lead to think that. Severn is somewhat angry that Kate is being forced out, but he doesn't direct his hatred toward Mr. Thomas. He points it at Mrs. Thomas. Lawrence:

"Poor Kate," Severn thought. "It's a shame to kick her out into the world, and all for nothing," He felt an impulse of hate toward womankind.

I wrote about it in the introduction to this story.

I'll have to go back and read your post. I came into the discussion a few days late, so I missed it.

Don't you mean 'Mrs. Thomas' and not 'Mrs. Severn?':lol: Last story you kept calling the guy and gal husband and wife and they were only engaged.

Doh.

Thanks, that is helpful; yet it could indicate the married couple have conferred on that decision and then decided she must leave. Also, if Mrs Thomas and Kate were often antagonistic to each other perhaps the husband did take control and decide she must depart. There really is no solid evident within the boundries of this story that it was Mrs.Thomas' decision alone.

No, there is no solid evidence--meaning, Lawrence never comes out and says Gertie fired Kate. There are, however, a few good indications that Mrs. Thomas is responsible. The quote I posted in my last post was just one. The quote I posted above in this post is another.

Yes, at the end, it seems that it brought Severn down to Kate's level. She showed her strength and power over him to stop the fight. He covered his face ashamed of his actions. If anything I think Kate was more dominent at this moment. Mrs. Thomas could not even be dominent enough to control the two men, and yet Kate handled the situation brillantly and with much strength of character.

Kate comes onto the stage as a innocent third party which makes the players involved in the fight ashamed. I don't know if she's actually leading anyone, though.

This I am not sure of. Is Severn being repulsed by his betters? How is Severn suffering the same fate as Kate?

Severn fails to attract Mrs. Thomas. He's unable to overcome the husband who is better. Severn does win the fight (I think I messed that detail up in my last post), but he isn't able to win the kind of attention he wants from Mrs. Thomas. Kate, meanwhile, desires greater respect and possibly Severn's attention, but is repulsed by the wife.

Janine

06-22-2008, 09:10 PM

Oh, that’s fine, Janine. I think it was answered. Unfortunately, my husband never has Friday, Saturday, or Sunday off as those are the busiest days at the restaurant. But he is home from Sunday night to Thursday afternoon, so that’s good.

Antiquarian, I just checked and you were correct; I had answered it; I must be cracking up!
Well, at least he is home now til Thurs evening. I know the weekends are a bummer for you; I can well understand.
At my age, I would rather do things on the weekdays, since weekend traffic is horrible here; and more and more I hate driving in traffic.

I don’t think Severn really wants to attract Mrs. Thomas. When they’re alone together during the thunderstorm before Mr. Thomas comes home, Severn is repulsed by his momentary attractive to Gertie.

I agree; I don't think he really does either; he is quite taken aback by her remarks.

Virgil

06-22-2008, 09:11 PM

Janine

06-22-2008, 09:32 PM

Well, I think everyone by now has gotten their concluding say on "The Old Adam." If not go ahead and continue. I would like to propose we take the summer off on the Lawrence short story thread. I know I got a busy reading schedule. I'll be reading Cormac McCarthy's The Road for the July book club forum, and reading John Banville's The Sea for the summer read, and I'm working on Shakespeare's "The Winter's Tale, and of course forever trying to get through Virgil's The Aeneid. I really would like to catch up and complete these reads. I'm not the fastest reader in the world, so I hope you'll understand if I wish to by pass Lawrence for a bit. Plus it's time to take a break. So I hope you'll forgive me. :)

That is fine Virgil; I can well understand that mountain of reading you have ahead of you; I read slowly, too. I am glad to take this break for a few months, the hopefully restful summer. I think the break would refresh us all. We have discussed so many stories and this has been quite an achievement, thanks to everyone. We could all use a rest. I know that Antiquarian and I are both attempting to participate in the Shakespeare summer read; and I have a two visual threads I want to start; and a participant in the Shakespeare thread and myself are colaborating on a thread, that she will start soon, relating to Shakespeare - also visual...oh, yeah and then there is Chekhov...all three of us women are dedicated to that thread of Quark's.
Anyway, good luck with your reading, Virgil!

Only comment I have is concerning this story is, aren't we missing the very ending of the story? Maybe we could all just go ahead and point out some things that stand out in the ending. I noticed these tears in this passage:

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.

It is interesting to see tears in context with the non-emotional side of Mrs. Thomas. Is she shedding those tears for her husband or herself, I wonder. In this paragraph, it seems both Severn and Kate leave the scene and the husband and wife remain alone. It is interesting to note, the way the characters line up together in this story, from scene to scene; both referring to male/female, male/male, female/female.

Dark Muse

06-22-2008, 09:34 PM

It would be good for me if we took the Summer off because I would have missed half the dicussion for next month as I am going to be gone a week in July

Virgil

06-22-2008, 09:35 PM

Oh I commented on his tears. I said, some neanderthal. :lol:

Quark

06-22-2008, 11:38 PM

I could use the time, too. I've wanted to get into the Shakespeare discussion for a while now, but haven't found time to read the play yet.

Janine

06-23-2008, 12:51 AM

Quark, DM, Anti, I think we all share the Shakespeare thread dilema. I have now listened to the first disk of the play, for about the 4th time. I still can't separate all the characters entirely, so I know I need to read the text at the same time. I just have not found the time.

So I guess we have finished with this story - what does everyone think? I am satisfied, if all of you are as well.

Time to put this thread to sleep for the summer and depart for Shakespeareland! ah, 'To sleep, perchance to dream'......

Janine

08-12-2008, 10:40 PM

Thank you Logos, for keeping this going; this thread means a lot to me.

Well, I just wanted to check in today and say hi to everyone. I really have been missing the forum (major forum withdrawal brings on weird symptoms) and not only missing this forum, but have been in Lawrence short story withdrawal; although, when I was without a computer for all those several weeks, I actually managed to read another Lawrence biography -that is at least the fourth I have read now, yet they are all different and quite fascinating. I hope my new found knowledge will lend itself to this forum and this thread, in particular.

I definitely wanted to announce that we will start a new story in September. I love this thread and could never depart long, you all know that. There are many more stories we have not done yet and it will be exciting to discuss them each month...I so much look forward to that. We have a good group and we have learned to discuss really well together. I guess it just took us time to get to know each other's style. I hope also, with the new upgrades to the site, we will draw other DHL enthusiasts to our discussions.

I have read several stories now ahead and have a few in mind, so it won't be difficult to choose one to begin the fall. Well, for now, back to Chekhov. I will check in here from time to time until I post the new story. I may have something I can add to the thread in the interum such as L photos or something of interest related to the stories.

Dark Muse

08-12-2008, 10:47 PM

Nice to see the thread open again

Janine

08-13-2008, 12:12 AM

It is that. I really missed it. Glad to see you gravitated back here, DM. September we can all start afresh; looking forward to a new story.

Virgil

08-13-2008, 06:55 AM

Great, it's open. :) Start thinking about which story you are going to choose Janine. ;)

Janine

08-13-2008, 02:27 PM

I think I know the one I will pick, Virgil...but you know me, I have to review them first. Did you want to start a short one soon?

I am having one problem with either my browser or this thread itself. I can't hit the 'last' button and get here - the internet explorer connection page appears with no connection. Now the only way to get here to this page is to start at page 1 and work my way back, which takes me at least 4 clicks. I now know we are on page 143 but it shows all these other pages afterward, when you click on those I can't get anything but that internet explorer page. Are you all having this same problem? Also, this the connection on this particular thread is super slow.

Virgil

08-13-2008, 04:04 PM

I'm having trouble too. And when I finally get in it shows my last post on page 143. And it shows many more pages and when i hit last page it never goes anywhere. Very strange. I hope Logos or one of the other mods see this and look into it.

Janine

08-13-2008, 04:41 PM

Good it is not just me; I just had to hit 4 numbers at least to work up to page 144...very strange....I hope they do see it although I think I emailed to Logos or Scher about the problem already. Maybe they are working on it.

Dark Muse

08-13-2008, 05:32 PM

For me, when I click on last page, it takes me to the last post that has been posted, it just hightlights the wrong number at the bottom. It tires to tell me I am on page 144 but I am still reading the most current posts.

Unless 144 is the last page, and all the other pages listed are just phantom pages, that do not really exisit

Logos

08-13-2008, 05:36 PM

hmmm yes I'm looking into this, but see for me it works ok. When I click the "last post" icon http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/lastpost.giffrom the main page of the DHL forum for this particular thread, or, if I search the forums for new posts and also click the last post icon it takes me to this page.

But the thread does take a long time to load.

I'm using Firefox and WinXP; so things might be working differently for me. I wonder if it does have something to do with the forum upgrade and this being a really long thread. Just trying some different things to see why this is happening...hang in there :)

Logos

08-13-2008, 08:35 PM

I only see this strangeness when I'm *not* logged in to the site, just viewing as Guest.

In Internet Explorer and Firefox it says there's 163 pages. But page 144 is the last page so I don't know what to make of this, some kind of bug, hopefully it will go away very soon.

Janine

08-14-2008, 02:34 AM

Thanks Logos for looking into this for us...that is really strange, that it does not do it as a 'visitor'. It is probably something minor and can easily be corrected...maybe it is some tiny setting or something. Or...maybe there is a 'ghost in the machine' and it knows we will fill up those remaining pages...that the Lawrence thread will extend into eternity....maybe the ghost is Lawrence, himself..... *spooky*

Scheherazade

08-14-2008, 04:02 AM

new thread

Scheherazade

08-14-2008, 08:17 AM

No, I will try to move all your posts here but considering the number of posts there, it will take some time! :p

Virgil

08-14-2008, 08:19 AM

Thanks. I couldn't get into the old thread at all. Does this mean that our discussions on the old thread are lost to us?

Virgil

08-14-2008, 08:25 AM

Is it me or is the sequence and times of the posts mixed up?

Scheherazade

08-14-2008, 08:30 AM

It is you, of course! :p

No, I think it is a little messed up.

Logos

08-14-2008, 08:33 AM

I think some tweaks with server going on, maybe wait till that is done and things will start to act more "normal" around here again.. :p

And kudos to you Scher for doing this, although I think you'e insane ;) :D

Scheherazade

08-14-2008, 08:38 AM

And kudos to you Scher for doing this, although I think you'e insane ;) :DI could do with some more encouragement, y'know! "Come on, Scher, you can do it" etc! :p

Scheherazade

08-14-2008, 09:48 AM

Yay!

It works! I have done it! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

country doctor

08-14-2008, 12:26 PM

this sounds interesting janine, thanks for the heads up.

Janine

08-14-2008, 02:39 PM

Yay!

It works! I have done it! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Is this the same thread or a new one? When I clicked on the last page it worked today. How did you do it Scher? This is the same link I had listed in my 'Subscribed Threads", so I guess it is the same - you are a magician, S!:thumbs_up Good job!

Hello country doctor! Glad you took my suggestion. Welcome to the 'Lawrence Short Stories' thread! Let me fill you in a bit, since you might be confused about all this. First, we disbanded for the rest of the summer and planned to come back in Sept and start a new story. Then this thread was locked: long story; but now we are up and running again to my relief and delight. As you probably noticed, we have discussed a lot of good stories in here; sorry you had not joined the forum early, so that you could have participated. These discussions have been just great. However, if you ever want to discuss any that we previously did, let me know and we can discuss the privately. Also, to your benefit, should you read any of them, you can refer back to that story in the thread, for more 'indepth' information and analysis. We have a good group here and we all have now become familiar with Lawrence's work so the discussions keep getting better and better.

Another thing, is that after the updates and the reopening of this thread, the number sequence at the top of the thread, was giving some of us a lot of grief, but thanks to the moderators, namely Logos and Scheherazade it has finally been straightened out.

We will choose another story soon. Maybe we will get started earlier than September. What does everyone think? I am game.

Dark Muse

08-14-2008, 03:29 PM

It is fine by me if we start early

Janine

08-14-2008, 03:31 PM

Ok, how about if I post a new story on Monday. You still want me to pick one, right?

Dark Muse

08-14-2008, 03:32 PM

Hehe sure, that would work for me

Janine

08-14-2008, 03:39 PM

Oh good, DM...did you see my post in 'Tortoise Poems' also?

Virgil

08-14-2008, 03:43 PM

Ok, how about if I post a new story on Monday. You still want me to pick one, right?

Monday? I thought we were waiting for September. How about we do a Tortoise poem this month and start the story in September?

Janine

08-14-2008, 03:53 PM

Monday? I thought we were waiting for September. How about we do a Tortoise poem this month and start the story in September?

Well, I was going to pick a very 'short' short story - an easy one. I will email you with the suggestion. It won't be too taxing. We can flip back and forth between the two threads. I feel insecure now, like I need to keep this thread open and active....we don't want to fade into oblivion.

Virgil

08-14-2008, 03:57 PM

Ok. :)

Janine

08-14-2008, 04:07 PM

Ok. :)

Ahhh, you are so sweet and co-operative.:D

Dark Muse

08-14-2008, 05:41 PM

Oh good, DM...did you see my post in 'Tortoise Poems' also?

Yes I saw your post over there. I will have to take a look at some of the past poems I missed when I get the chance

Nossa

08-15-2008, 04:43 AM

I might join you guys if you started a new story :D I don't mine if we started now or waited till September.

Janine

08-15-2008, 01:56 PM

Nossa, so happy to see you here. Yes, by all means, do join in. This should make for a very good discussion soon. Maybe we should vote on it. I will think of whether it would be better to start a few weeks from now; Virgil had thought it and I had orginially but I am flexible. With all that is going on right now, it might be better delayed a few weeks, but then again now is when we have people interested and I was thinking of a 'short' short story anyway.
I don't know about you but, I can't stop visiting the 'Profile pages, including my own. They are all getting more and more interesting, now that members are adding photos, along with changing the color schemes.

Hey, DM, did you create one yet? I think you could come up with some great imagery, since your blog is quite active. I would love to see what you come up with. I didn't really know what I was doing at first so I just had to try anything to see how it worked, then you can easily delete it or change it. Truly, it is fun. I love yours Nossa!

I think the administrator and the mods were right - this is just the thing now to pep up this site and create more enthusisam. I know I am now more intereted in getting to know everyone and have them participate in the discussions, such as this one.

Dark Muse

08-15-2008, 02:38 PM

No I have not, perhaps I will have to look into it

Janine

08-15-2008, 02:49 PM

No I have not, perhaps I will have to look into it

We have a lot of 'pink/lavender/yellow' themes, but somehow I don't see you as a pink/lavender/yellow type person; am I right? I think of you more dark, mysterious and 'Poeish' and so I think yours will be interesting - maybe some fog and obscurity? There are many black ones already - can't wait to see what you come up with though, DM. I could also picture a dark underwater scene with Poe's famous 'Anna Bell Lee' (sp?) poem floating somewhere in the background, or as a theme.

Dark Muse

08-15-2008, 02:51 PM

Hehe I am working on it right now and playing around with it to see what I come up with. But it will be dark more like than not

Janine

08-15-2008, 02:54 PM

Hehe I am working on it right now and playing around with it to see what I come up with. But it will be dark more like than not

I saw it so far - just go and play around and have fun with it. I like the maroon, no one has used that color yet - I bet gray (maybe some fog) would set that off well instead of the tan. Have fun! It is definitely something creative and cool to do.

Dark Muse

08-15-2008, 03:32 PM

Haha, well it is a bit insane, but that is probably suiting. I think I am happy with it now.

Janine

08-15-2008, 04:18 PM

DM, I love it! It is great!!! I guess we have some hidden talent among us.

Dark Muse

08-15-2008, 04:23 PM

Hehe thank you

Janine

08-15-2008, 06:01 PM

You are welcome!

Nossa

08-16-2008, 03:56 AM

Nossa, so happy to see you here. Yes, by all means, do join in. This should make for a very good discussion soon. Maybe we should vote on it. I will think of whether it would be better to start a few weeks from now; Virgil had thought it and I had orginially but I am flexible. With all that is going on right now, it might be better delayed a few weeks, but then again now is when we have people interested and I was thinking of a 'short' short story anyway.

I don't mind starting any time. Whenever you decide to start, I'll be here :D

I don't know about you but, I can't stop visiting the 'Profile pages, including my own. They are all getting more and more interesting, now that members are adding photos, along with changing the color schemes.
Yes. Me too!! lol...it's so much fun. I'm glad you like my page :D I love yours too! Virgil's is amazing too, and also Dark Muse's is great! I think we do have hidden talents like you said ;)

Janine

08-16-2008, 04:16 PM

I don't mind starting any time. Whenever you decide to start, I'll be here :D

Yes. Me too!! lol...it's so much fun. I'm glad you like my page :D I love yours too! Virgil's is amazing too, and also Dark Muse's is great! I think we do have hidden talents like you said ;)

Well, thanks for being understanding, Nossa and Dark Muse. I will think of when we should start then. I haven't quite made up my mind about it, since I was thinking of other things, beside the computer, that I must do in the next few days. Then with all this new stuff going on this week on the forum, it seems like stretching it a bit to start the story this Monday; maybe we could delay till next Monday instead. I need to review the story(ies) first.

I agree - Dark Muse really came through with a cool layout and page. I knew you would DM ...I can tell you think creatively. Nossa's is so cool, also. I love the color - it just right for you. Virgil went wild with the golden yellow and green, but I like it and the page with the background of DaVinci drawings, don't you? There are many great pages so far. I like LadyWentworth's also....very 'Phantom of the Opera' and that suits her well. It is theatrical and dramatic. Yes, I think many of us do indeed have hidden talents! This is such a great way to express our own personalities, don't you think. Also a good way to bring us all together and talking.

Virgil

08-16-2008, 05:25 PM

Janine, why don't you tell which story so we can read it while there is still a weekend? :D

Scheherazade

08-16-2008, 06:02 PM

Have you read the competition stories yet? ;) :p :D

Virgil

08-16-2008, 06:17 PM

Have you read the competition stories yet? ;) :p :D

No I haven't. Thanks for the reminder.

Janine

08-16-2008, 07:05 PM

Have you read the competition stories yet? ;) :p :D

Scher, can you give me the link to them? I have hunted and can't find the actual stories to read. I really do wish to read them and vote.

Virgil, I will pick 'The Christening' then...because you want a headstart reading it. I think you told me before that you read it years back. Anyway, I will officially post the story with a photo on Monday. We will just take it slowly this coming week, since I anticipate being rather busy. I request no posting comments until after Monday - ok with you?

Virgil

08-16-2008, 07:12 PM

Here you go janine: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36922.

Thanks for the story. I will try to read it tonight.

Janine

08-16-2008, 08:07 PM

Good, Virgil, let me know how you like it. It is a short one and fairly straight-forward. Kind of a sad one though.

Virgil

08-16-2008, 08:38 PM

For those that may not have a hard copy, here is an electronic version. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301501h.html#c11. We can cut and paste quotes from there.

Dark Muse

08-16-2008, 09:09 PM

Hopefully I will be able to read it tomorrow

Janine

08-16-2008, 11:29 PM

For those that may not have a hard copy, here is an electronic version. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301501h.html#c11. We can cut and paste quotes from there.

Good Virgil, this is very helpful. Thanks so much for providing that for us. I will have to track down a good photo to represent the story - you know, for my introduction. I have no idea what to write about that but I will think of something. I better re-read the story tonight, myself.

Nossa

08-17-2008, 01:30 AM

I have this story! I'll start reading today :D

Janine

08-17-2008, 01:48 AM

I have this story! I'll start reading today :D

Great Nossa! I just wrote the introduction offline, which includes some research on the background of the story, date, etc. I also came up with an interesting image, unless I change my mind for something else...you know me. I will try and post that tomorrow night late, so you all can get started talking on Monday.

Janine

08-17-2008, 11:16 PM

The next story will be:

The Christening

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p70/sealace/AntiqueWhiteBabyShoes.jpg

Lawrence probably wrote this short shory in the year 1912, around the same time he completed his revision of Paul Morel, which later was retitled Sons and Lovers.

I found this reference in the book D.H. Lawrence A calendar of his works by Sagar:

29 June While here I’ve written three [short stories]. But, under the influence of Frieda, I am afraid their moral tone would not agree with my countrymen [Moore 133].
‘The Christening’ may have been written or at least begun earlier, since at the top of the first page is the address, crossed out, 13 Queen’s Square, Eastwood, Notts., where Lawrence lived from February until his departure from England; perhaps in March when Lawrence heard that his friend George Neville had fathered a second illegitimate child [Moore 103]

From the entry for July 1914:

*16 July ‘The Baker’s Man’ was later retitled ‘The Christening’. It was first published in The Smart Set, Febuary 1914.

Basically, this story involves a working class family with a daughter who has given birth to an illegitimate child; the family wishes the baby to be Christened in the privacy of their home. Thus when the story begins we are presented with the family awaiting the arrival of the parson. This is an early story of the author’s and can be found in Volume I of the Complete Short Stories.

Virgil also provided a link for the story online. Enjoy your reading and we will begin discussions tomorrow. I will post the opening text at that time, so we can we can get started. Happy reading!

Virgil

08-17-2008, 11:28 PM

For those who may not be Christian, a Christening is another name for a babtism which is a religious ceremony usually performed on infants where a Priest/Minister runs water over the baby's head. It's a ceremony that initiates the baby into Christianity.

Janine

08-18-2008, 02:50 PM

No, you are not seeing things. I changed the shoes again....talk about being indecisive. I read the first part of the story at my breakfast and now I see that the baby is wearing a white dress and the house is newly built by the owner, so I think those other shoes were too old and beat. I will use them for another story, since I am kind of fond of them.

Virgil, thanks for providing the information about the term "Christening". One can also look it up on Wikipedia to get a full definition, if you are not aware of this ritual in the Christian religion. This story reminds me of the Christening scene in the Thomas Hardy novel "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" - did you read the book, Virgil ? If so, do you recall the scene when Tess baptises her own child, because the parson refuses to, the child being illigitimate?
Also, to add to what you said, about having a baby Christened not long after birth, devoted Christians believed that if a baby were to die 'un-Christened' then their soul would be lost. I am sure an online definition of the term can reveal more about this sacrament/ritual.

Here is the first part of the story for all to comment on. I will comment later on this evening. I have to go out today to take care of a few important matters:

The mistress of the British School stepped down from her school gate, and instead of turning to the left as usual, she turned to the right. Two women who were hastening home to scramble their husbands' dinners together--it was five minutes to four--stopped to look at her. They stood gazing after her for a moment; then they glanced at each other with a woman's little grimace.

To be sure, the retreating figure was ridiculous: small and thin, with a black straw hat, and a rusty cashmere dress hanging full all round the skirt. For so small and frail and rusty a creature to sail with slow, deliberate stride was also absurd. Hilda Rowbotham was less than thirty, so it was not years that set the measure of her pace; she had heart disease. Keeping her face, that was small with sickness, but not uncomely, firmly lifted and fronting ahead, the young woman sailed on past the market-place, like a black swan of mournful, disreputable plumage.

She turned into Berryman's, the baker's. The shop displayed bread and cakes, sacks of flour and oatmeal, flitches of bacon, hams, lard and sausages. The combination of scents was not unpleasing. Hilda Rowbotham stood for some minutes nervously tapping and pushing a large knife that lay on the counter, and looking at the tall, glittering brass scales. At last a morose man with sandy whiskers came down the step from the house-place.

"What is it?" he asked, not apologizing for his delay.

"Will you give me six-pennyworth of assorted cakes and pastries--and put in some macaroons, please?" she asked, in remarkably rapid and nervous speech. Her lips fluttered like two leaves in a wind, and her words crowded and rushed like a flock of sheep at a gate.

"We've got no macaroons," said the man churlishly.

He had evidently caught that word. He stood waiting.

"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.

"Oh, anything you've got," replied the schoolmistress, flushing slightly. The man moved slowly about, dropping the cakes from various dishes one by one into a paper bag.

"How's that sister o' yours getting on?" he asked, as if he were talking to the flour scoop.

"Whom do you mean?" snapped the schoolmistress.

"The youngest," answered the stooping, pale-faced man, with a note of sarcasm.

"Emma! Oh, she's very well, thank you!" The schoolmistress was very red, but she spoke with sharp, ironical defiance. The man grunted. Then he handed her the bag and watched her out of the shop without bidding her "Good afternoon".

She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

Virgil

08-18-2008, 03:18 PM

Yes, I read Tess, and that scene is vaguely familiar. It's a good thing you thought of that because I am sure Lawrence is aware of it and has it on his mind.

Janine

08-18-2008, 03:57 PM

I thought so too, Virgil, when I first read the story. It is an early story and I actually noticed in the timeline book that this was about the time he was writing his essay on Hardy, or at least the time when he revised this story he was writing the Hardy essay. Interesting, isn't it? Apparently, if you read my introduction and background information, he was inspired to write this story, right after he heard of George Neville fathering his second illegitimate child...or so it was suggested.

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 03:09 PM

You are freaking me out Janine the shoes keep changing LOL

Janine

08-19-2008, 03:37 PM

You are freaking me out Janine the shoes keep changing LOL

Yeah, real spooking, isn't it? :alien:Actually, I discovered the baby's dress is described as 'white' and so these shoes worked better, although I loved those others. I won't change them again - promise, DM.;)

Nossa

08-19-2008, 06:11 PM

You are freaking me out Janine the shoes keep changing LOL

:lol::lol: Me too! I was like 'wasn't it another color? maybe I'm seeing things?' :lol:

Virgil

08-19-2008, 07:56 PM

Janine, you already posted the first section? I thought we usually discuss the story as a whole before we get to sections.

Dark Muse

08-19-2008, 08:04 PM

The mistress of the British School stepped down from her school gate, and instead of turning to the left as usual, she turned to the right. Two women who were hastening home to scramble their husbands' dinners together--it was five minutes to four--stopped to look at her. They stood gazing after her for a moment; then they glanced at each other with a woman's little grimace.

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?

So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.

But I thought perhaps these two women were meant to sort of offset against the abnormalcy, of dysfunctional family and life of the Robtham's. They are more or less "normal" sense they are on their way to cook for their husbands, in contrast to Hilda.

Patricianly where it states:

They stood gazing after her for a moment; then they glanced at each other with a woman's little grimace

I thought this scene with the preceding lines:

To be sure, the retreating figure was ridiculous: small and thin, with a black straw hat, and a rusty cashmere dress hanging full all round the skirt. For so small and frail and rusty a creature to sail with slow, deliberate stride was also absurd. Hilda Rowbotham was less than thirty, so it was not years that set the measure of her pace; she had heart disease. Keeping her face, that was small with sickness, but not uncomely, firmly lifted and fronting ahead, the young woman sailed on past the market-place, like a black swan of mournful, disreputable plumage.

Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.

like a black swan of mournful, disreputable plumage

I found the use of these lines to be interesting, and though when I first read it, I winced slightly because I thought the metaphor was perhaps just a bit overdone, but I liked the symbolism behind the words.

White sawns are often used as this image of purity, maidenhood, and innocence. So I liked this contrast of the black swan being like the black sheep of the family. The color of their feathers being their mark against them. And yet the birds are just as elegant and beautiful as their white cousins.

I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more.

Janine

08-19-2008, 09:35 PM

:lol::lol: Me too! I was like 'wasn't it another color? maybe I'm seeing things?' :lol:

Ok, first yours. I did change the shoes, Nossa, so don't worry about your sanity.;):lol: I just thought, after a second reading of the story, that indeed, the baby was not that poor and was wearing a white Christening dress so I would go with these white shoes instead. I hope I can use those other antique shoes, for another story or poem. I really liked those; they had so much character.

*moan*Virgil, go back to the Olympics! ;):lol: I'm really just fooling with you. :D

I know, we have given individual opinions in the past, but isn't that what usually lands us in trouble right from the start? Why not just skip that for now (no passing judgement) and start discussing the story as we encounter it. We got started late this month anyway, so I figured we would not waste time hashing the story about and beating it to death, before we really discuss and analysis it. Later one when we finish we can all express our opinions on the value of the story, etc. I think that Dark Muse has pointed out some good things in this beginning part of the text, so after this post I will address what she has written.

Virgil

08-19-2008, 09:55 PM

I know, we have given individual opinions in the past, but isn't that what usually lands us in trouble right from the start? Why not just skip that for now (no passing judgement)
I'm not talking about judgements, but a discussion on what the story is about, general themes, it's structure.

and start discussing the story as we encounter it. We got started late this month anyway, so I figured we would not waste time hashing the story about and beating it to death, before we really discuss and analysis it. Later one when we finish we can all express our opinions on the value of the story, etc. I think that Dark Muse has pointed out some good things in this beginning part of the text, so after this post I will address what she has written.
I've always felt that you can't talk about the minutia without an understanding of the overall. But so be it.

Janine

08-19-2008, 09:57 PM

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

I think later, DM, you actually answer this yourself. I think also Lawrence means to set the stage of a kind of 'gossipy' neighborhood surroundings. People 'talk' and in particular, this will come out stronger with the shame of someone (in this case her younger sister) having given birth to a child 'out of wedlock.' I think that the school teacher's character is closely being grouped with this family, who are now dainted with shame; the onlookers are like the towns people in the "Scarlet Letter." Indeed their activities are presented as normal in contrast to the disfunctional family that this woman is associated with.

I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?

I think we now have established it does have it's precise purpose and is not random; nor a mere detail of no significance. Lawrence grew up in neighborhoods like this and he knew the way common people could gossip and talk about their neighbors.

So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.

They do have meaning; I don't think you are stretching things one bit. These opening passages set the scene/atmosphere and the fact that the family is now a sort of outcast unit, in the eyes of their neighbors and the town's people.

But I thought perhaps these two women were meant to sort of offset against the abnormalcy, of dysfunctional family and life of the Robtham's. They are more or less "normal" sense they are on their way to cook for their husbands, in contrast to Hilda.

I would agree with this contrast. You stated that well.

Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.

Yes, I thought so, too. I agree that "Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip" - that is a good way of putting it. I like the wording of "sails' down the street"....and the part about "her slow deliberate stride." I will read over the passage again and see if I can pick out other defining words.

I found the use of these lines to be interesting, and though when I first read it, I winced slightly because I thought the metaphor was perhaps just a bit overdone, but I liked the symbolism behind the words.

I especially noticed those lines and thought them poetic and I really liked the analogy or metaphor of the black swan.

White sawns are often used as this image of purity, maidenhood, and innocence. So I liked this contrast of the black swan being like the black sheep of the family. The color of their feathers being their mark against them. And yet the birds are just as elegant and beautiful as their white cousins.

Good observation. I like what you wrote here.

I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more.

I think it does make us wonder about the Baker and this adds some mystery to the story. Later on we do indeed get more insight into what significance he plays in the story. I like the fact that Lawrence only hints here at his part in the tale. I like how he presents him so that we have to think of why he reacts as he does to Hilda.

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 12:01 AM

I think it does make us wonder about the Baker and this adds some mystery to the story. Later on we do indeed get more insight into what significance he plays in the story. I like the fact that Lawrence only hints here at his part in the tale. I like how he presents him so that we have to think of why he reacts as he does to Hilda.

Yes I agree, though for me it was more the other way around. That is I found the way she was acting a bit more strange, and mysterious. The baker I just presumed was a genrally burly sort of fellow. But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.

I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.

When it said

He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever

I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/ what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.

Janine

08-20-2008, 12:51 AM

Yes I agree, though for me it was more the other way around. That is I found the way she was acting a bit more strange, and mysterious. The baker I just presumed was a genrally burly sort of fellow. But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.

When it said "Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile.

I wonder if she was referring to her younger sister being spoiled by her? I am not sure about the "it is less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else" - could she just be talking in a sarcastic manor? I will have to think about that line more.

"He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever."

I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.

I do think the Bakerman does not know exactly what she is referring to or consciously he does not recognise her sarcasm. I think that Hilda keeps the family together being the oldest and a woman with a profession; so perhaps she now feels that all her efforts have been invane, given the circumstances that await her at home. All of this is just my own theory of course and the impression I got of this part of the story - the beginning and introduction to both characters and their short little interchange of words.

I'm not talking about judgements, but a discussion on what the story is about, general themes, it's structure.

Virgil, we must have been posting the same time - sorry about that. I did not mean to ignore your post. I know but what you mean, but it just seems that, it always does end up being a judgement on the story or the characters. I didn't mean to go so along quickly, but this month will be short now, and I hope we can start a new story by Sept. I didn't think it totally neccessary to see the overall impression yet, but feel free, V, to say a few words about it, such as themes and structure, if you feel inclined to. I am all ears (actually 'eyes' on here), my good friend...sorry we charged into the first part so quickly; I assumed everyone had read the story by now.

I've always felt that you can't talk about the minutia without an understanding of the overall. But so be it.

Well, you know we think so differently about this. It might be me; I really can't concentrate on a story discussion, if we jump all over with the time sequence. I think I may have dyslexia or something, because I get so overwhelmed, when we start to post comments on the ending or the middle, before we get to those parts of the story. I truly have trouble with that, unless we take it step by step, and post segments of the story to discuss, along with character analysis. Often if we just jump ahead with Lawrence stories, we do miss something vital. At least, that is merely my opinion.

If you want to express an overall understanding/impression, from the start please feel free to do so. I will listen, as I said above. I personally cannot do that until I discuss, think about and digest the story, part by part. You probably are much better at seeing the whole right away, than I am.

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 01:11 AM

I wonder if she was referring to her younger sister being spoiled by her? I am not sure about the "it is less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else" - could she just be talking in a sarcastic manor? I will have to think about that line more.

Oh yes, I did not think of that. At first I thought she was just talking in general, but I can see where she could be refering to what she has to sacrifice for her family and I can see how when she tries to get something for herself once and cannot it would be frustrating.

She does seem a very pious woman, so I can see where she would view it as being better to take care of others, over oneself.

I do think the Bakerman does not know exactly what she is referring to or consciously he does not recognise her sarcasm. I think that Hilda keeps the family together being the oldest and a woman with a profession; so perhaps she now feels that all her efforts have been invane, given the circumstances that await her at home. All of this is just my own theory of course and the impression I got of this part of the story - the beginning and introduction to both characters and their short little interchange of words.

Yes that makes sense. I also got the impression, that the baker was just a bit slow in general, though perhaps it was just his awakardness around her which made him seem to be so.

Janine

08-20-2008, 01:22 AM

DM, I am going to retire to bed now - tired out. I think we made a good start today, don't you? Thanks for your comments - you had some good things to point out. Hopefully Virgil will point some general things out tomorrow and then we can move on with the text. Goodnight, DM.

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 01:29 AM

Yes I think it started out well. Goodnight

Virgil

08-20-2008, 06:51 AM

I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.

Nossa

08-20-2008, 11:05 AM

Sorry for being late in participating. I got caught up in things with my family. But I'm here now, and I can see you guys already got to the second page :lol:

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

They do have meaning; I don't think you are stretching things one bit. These opening passages set the scene/atmosphere and the fact that the family is now a sort of outcast unit, in the eyes of their neighbors and the town's people.

I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.
I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.

Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.

Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.
Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more

But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illegitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.

I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully :D

Janine

08-20-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote by Virgil

I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.

Virgil, You are not far behind, although I did reread the story 3 times now..;) and I never skim.:lol: I only posted up to the part when Hilda is about to make it to home. That is not too far at all.
Anyway, I thought you wished to post some thoughts on the theme, etc. I wrote about that in my post to you above. Just jump in an do so whenever you want, or if you would rather wait till the end to do so, save it and then we call all discuss those aspects of the story.

Sorry for being late in participating. I got caught up in things with my family. But I'm here now, and I can see you guys already got to the second page :lol:

Nossa, You are not late, either....just that DM and I are early...:lol: We did make it to the second page in the book (text I posted) but only half way down the page, I think. It really only amounts to about a page of text, actually. We will go slowly posting the text, so don't worry. I have other things besides the forum to attend to, also. Anyway, glad to see you here now, Nossa. It is nice to have a new person in this thread.

I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.

If you wish to for convenience' sake, you can refer to the author as Lawrence or just "L"...we all do that usually. I know I hate typing the D.H. all the time....those periods are a pain! Yes, good point on the words Lawrence chooses to use in that particular part of the text - indeed 'hastening' and 'scrambling' do have their significance; they convey a different feeling than if he said 'they were hurrying home'. These woman probably know that they need to get their husband's dinner on the table in time or they will be chastised for it; yet as you point out they still take the time to stop a minute to observe and gossip, if only in their wry looks of disapproval, about the other woman, Hilda. Immediately, this does set them appart and make Hilda the black sheep, or as DM pointed out - "the black swan". Yet, Hilda is blameless as we find out as the story progresses; or is she?

I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.

I think this was the point of starting this story in this manor. It makes it clear from the beginning.

Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.

Even though the story was not about Hilda directly she did play a prominent role somehow in the story structure and the family, which we come to realize is quite dysfunctional.

Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I didn't really think that actually. I think by showing that she was not 100% healthy showed that the family upkeep did take some sort of toll on her and in that way we do feel more sympathy for the woman at this point. I agree more with your last line. I am also reminded her of Lawrence's own mother for some reason with her demise. She died of cancer but I think she also had a heart condition. Don't quote me on that but I somehow was reminded of her and even the way in which Hilda dressed.

I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illigitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.

I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully :D

Good idea, Nossa, One gets so much more out a second or even a third reading. Lawrence actually was an advocate of repeat readings. I read the story about 6 months ago, and then I read it right before I choose this story for the discussion, and then again the other day at breakfast. It goes along pretty quickly and somehow I have gotten better at getting into the of Lawrence's writing - it all seems very poetic to me now. I guess reading enough, Lawrence, as with Shakespeare, you get natually into the fluidity of the prose. I love it when I find that rhythm and can easily key into it.

Dark Muse

08-20-2008, 03:59 PM

I didn't really think that actually. I think by showing that she was not 100% healthy showed that the family upkeep did take some sort of toll on her and in that way we do feel more sympathy for the woman at this point. I agree more with your last line. I am also reminded her of Lawrence's own mother for some reason with her demise. She died of cancer but I think she also had a heart condition. Don't quote me on that but I somehow was reminded of her and even the way in which Hilda dressed.

I did not think of that. But that is a good point. I had wondered just why her illness had been pointed out, as it never seemed to be refered back to much if I recall, other than this opening line.

Virgil

08-20-2008, 08:36 PM

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?

So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.

I do not think it as a random detail. First it sets the scene, but second it suggests at one of the central conflicts of the story, that is male versuses female power and the diminsihing of male power.

Virgil

08-20-2008, 08:45 PM

Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

This is why I would have liked a story discussion first before detailed analysis. I don't think anyone noticed my post on the bottom of page 147 here. The thread turned a new page after and I think people missed my point. I don't think we are in agreement as to what the story is about.

Janine

08-20-2008, 10:07 PM

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

This is why I would have liked a story discussion first before detailed analysis. I don't think anyone noticed my post on the bottom of page 147 here. The thread turned a new page after and I think people missed my point. I don't think we are in agreement as to what the story is about.

Virgil, you are getting to be bad, mad and dangerous. I did answer your post on page 147 - see my post #2208 on this page. I told you to comment in that post and then later in another post.

Virgil

08-20-2008, 10:14 PM

Virgil, you are getting to be bad, mad and dangerous. I did answer your post on page 147 - see my post #2208 on this page. I told you to comment in that post and then later in another post.

Oh so you did. I'm sorry. I didn't see it buried in that long post. Ok. Well, if you guys don't want to discuss the story as a whole, we can do without it. But from what I'm reading from the comments of all three of you I don't think you guys are seeing the same story as me.

Janine

08-20-2008, 10:22 PM

Oh so you did. I'm sorry. I didn't see it buried in that long post. Ok. Well, if you guys don't want to discuss the story as a whole, we can do without it. But from what I'm reading from the comments of all three of you I don't think you guys are seeing the same story as me.

Now this will be my third time saying this - tell us what you are seeing; post some comments on the theme and the basic idea of the story. Virgil...hello... Since when did you and I not get along? I am easy and co-operative. We have been waiting for you to post some comments as a whole...at least I have been waiting. I didn't post any new text, did I?

Virgil

08-20-2008, 10:30 PM

Now this will be my third time saying this - tell us what you are seeing; post some comments on the theme and the basic idea of the story. Virgil...hello... Since when did you and I not get along? I am easy and co-operative. We have been waiting for you to post some comments as a whole...at least I have been waiting. I didn't post any new text, did I?

:) Ok, ok. I will have to do it tomorrow. :)

Janine

08-20-2008, 10:38 PM

:) Ok, ok. I will have to do it tomorrow. :)

tomorrow....?:(...oh OK....:)

Are you going to comment in the Tortoise poems soon?

I don't feel really well tonight and may knock off soon anyway.

I can't find that thread about the updates. I tried to change my blog settings and don't know why it won't go through, but you can try it again: maybe it did reset it.

Virgil

08-20-2008, 10:55 PM

tomorrow....?:(...oh OK....:)

Are you going to comment in the Tortoise poems soon?

I don't feel really well tonight and may knock off soon anyway.

I can't find that thread about the updates. I tried to change my blog settings and don't know why it won't go through, but you can try it again: maybe it did reset it.

Yes I will. I need to sit and read it carefully. I'm overwhelmed with lots going on. :sick:

Janine

08-20-2008, 11:00 PM

Yes I will. I need to sit and read it carefully. I'm overwhelmed with lots going on. :sick:

I just emailed you. Sorry you are overwhelmed. I feel a bit that way myself currently, so take your time.

Virgil

08-21-2008, 10:15 PM

Janine

08-22-2008, 02:54 PM

Ok, here's my take on the story. I think the story is more about the daughters’s unnatural relationship with their father than about the Christening, though the Christening adds the religious overtone to the conflict. The daughters all exert their power over a decrepit old man, with Hilda’s schoolmistress personality opposing the old man’s natural, more blood conscious person. The men in the story are all either churlish (the baker, the son) or weak (the minister, the old man, the baby). All three of the women exert power, but the power is removed from nature: Hilda the schoolmistress, Bertha the bossy, and Emma the unmarried mother who rejects the father. The story is predominantly about this conflict, another of those Lawrence stories where women’s power leads to dysfunction.

Hurrah! You posted something, Virgil; I checked it last night, but I guess you were still busy and actually so was I. Ok, I would agree with all of the above. I think if familiar with Lawrence's other works one would see that right away. I did think the three woman prominent as compared with the impressions we get of the men in the story, even the brother, who actually becomes quite irritating. I think, that as we work through the story we will come up with other thoughts to add to this or to expound on what you have said here. I like the way you stated that - very precise and to the point (unlike some 'long-winded people we know, namely me;)).

If it is ok with you, leave your comment and this post for the others to read and comment on, and then tomorrow I will post more of the story; unless you wish to post some comments on the opening paragraphs, also. I have to go out late today into this evening, so that would work out well for me. Either that or I will post it later to night. Just let me know which to do.

Virgil

08-22-2008, 04:07 PM

If it is ok with you, leave your comment and this post for the others to read and comment on, and then tomorrow I will post more of the story; unless you wish to post some comments on the opening paragraphs, also. I have to go out late today into this evening, so that would work out well for me. Either that or I will post it later to night. Just let me know which to do.

Oh I'm glad you see it that way too. That sounds good to me. :)

Janine

08-22-2008, 11:05 PM

Oh I'm glad you see it that way too. That sounds good to me. :)

Glad of it. Tomorrow I will post some more of the text to discuss. Too tired now - think I might watch a movie and relax.

Dark Muse

08-22-2008, 11:14 PM

Overall I agree with Virgil about the story, and I can definitely be seen in the household with the three sisters and broken down father, and childish brother. And it is funny as Janine had mentioned this story in some relation to Sons and Lovers, and reading this story did make me think of that book and Mr. Morel.

But there was one thing of which I was curious about.

I do not think it as a random detail. First it sets the scene, but second it suggests at one of the central conflicts of the story, that is male verses female power and the diminishing of male power.

Just how do the opening lines about the women rushing home to cook dinner for their husbands support and set up the theme of the declining power of men?

Janine

08-23-2008, 02:11 AM

Overall I agree with Virgil about the story, and I can definitely be seen in the household with the three sisters and broken down father, and childish brother. And it is funny as Janine had mentioned this story in some relation to Sons and Lovers, and reading this story did make me think of that book and Mr. Morel.

But there was one thing of which I was curious about.

Just how do the opening lines about the women rushing home to cook dinner for their husbands support and set up the theme of the declining power of men?

Yeah, since when is rushing home nervously to get a husband's dinner on the table a sign of power?

Virgil

08-23-2008, 08:10 AM

Yeah, since when is rushing home nervously to get a husband's dinner on the table a sign of power?

I think that counterpoints the dysfunctional aspect of the family at hand.

Nossa

08-23-2008, 10:06 AM

I think that counterpoints the dysfunctional aspect of the family at hand.

If it counterpoints the dysfuncional family of the Rowbotham, then it's the other way around. If the two women are hurrying home to make dinner, then they're probably afraid that their husbands might get angry, which affirms the male domination. In the Rowbotham household, the father's role is almost absent. He's being treated harshly by his youngest daughter, and his middle daughter is the one who seems to be in charge. He's overall a weak character (like you stated in a previous post).

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?

Janine

08-23-2008, 11:31 AM

Nossa,Glad to see you back posting in this thread. I have to agree with you and also with Dark Muse's comments. Hey, Virgil, I think you will be outnumbered this time, with 3 women against one guy - sorry;:lol: you better drag Quark back in here; although he might not yet have internet access in his new apartment.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?

I would have to agree and ask the same question.

Maybe the wise thing to do, is to go ahead with the story, and then later consider all that has been said, to sum up the story. We really can't know the theme completely, until we discuss each part of the story and see just what the intentions of the author truly were. I think we should take the journey along with the author as he is developing his story. I know by my reading that Lawrence worked this way and so many times he wrote, then completely rewrote his story until he got it right. I don't think he just dashed this story off either; there were many rewrites so I am sure whatever he put into it was quite intentional and for a purpose.

Janine

08-24-2008, 04:39 PM

I am posting a bit more of the text:

She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

Across the field, and she was at home. It was a new, substantial cottage, built with unstinted hand, such a house as an old miner could build himself out of his savings. In the rather small kitchen a woman of dark, saturnine complexion sat nursing a baby in a long white gown; a young woman of heavy, brutal cast stood at the table, cutting bread and butter. She had a downcast, humble mien that sat unnaturally on her, and was strangely irritating. She did not look round when her sister entered. Hilda put down the bag of cakes and left the room, not having spoken to Emma, nor to the baby, not to Mrs Carlin, who had come in to help for the afternoon.

*********
My comments:

I think in this first paragraph, Lawrence paints a vivid scene of the surrounding countryside. He contrasts the words well. If you notice the the color 'white' first seen in Hilda's white bag, 'white' again echoes in the description:
"the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke...."
Also, Hilda is described as "flushing over her neck", this later in the paragragh echoes in this phrase, which I find very beautiful and graphic...painterly..

"A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist."

She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

Also, evident in the paragraph above, is the strain and stess physically, of her long walk homeward and yet though, it is a "slow-stepping torture", she has "an appearance of steadfast unconcern." I think this would be something familiar to Lawrence, with his own mother and her steadily declining health, and yet her 'steadfastness' to fight until the bitter end of life.

Also, I notice the confines of the town with it's closed in 'gossipy' feeling (restrictive to Hilda), is now contrasted with her 'freer' journey homeward in these words
"the wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight..."

The twilight also seems to be a 'foreshadowing' for the coming events of the story, being seen off in the distant of the "far woods".

"It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse."

This line seems to foretell the coming events, as well, but goes beyond that and says to us how nature can sooth and soften the human body and soul - or as Lawrence used the words, "soften, diffuse" the "irritable sadness" Hilda is feeling during her long trip homeward. I say 'long', because, to a woman of poor health, this walk would seem to go on forever and be percieved as long and difficult to endure on a daily basis.

Virgil

08-24-2008, 05:59 PM

Just wanted to back track a little. Here's the exchange with the baker:

She turned into Berryman's, the baker's. The shop displayed bread and cakes, sacks of flour and oatmeal, flitches of bacon, hams, lard and sausages. The combination of scents was not unpleasing. Hilda Rowbotham stood for some minutes nervously tapping and pushing a large knife that lay on the counter, and looking at the tall, glittering brass scales. At last a morose man with sandy whiskers came down the step from the house-place.

"What is it?" he asked, not apologizing for his delay.

"Will you give me six-pennyworth of assorted cakes and pastries--and put in some macaroons, please?" she asked, in remarkably rapid and nervous speech. Her lips fluttered like two leaves in a wind, and her words crowded and rushed like a flock of sheep at a gate.

"We've got no macaroons," said the man churlishly.

He had evidently caught that word. He stood waiting.

"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.

"Oh, anything you've got," replied the schoolmistress, flushing slightly. The man moved slowly about, dropping the cakes from various dishes one by one into a paper bag.

"How's that sister o' yours getting on?" he asked, as if he were talking to the flour scoop.

"Whom do you mean?" snapped the schoolmistress.

"The youngest," answered the stooping, pale-faced man, with a note of sarcasm.

"Emma! Oh, she's very well, thank you!" The schoolmistress was very red, but she spoke with sharp, ironical defiance. The man grunted. Then he handed her the bag and watched her out of the shop without bidding her "Good afternoon".

We learn later that the baker is the father of the child. What do you see in this exchange? Is he upset that he is shut out from Emma? I don't get the feeling he has abandoned Emma. But it's really not clear. I think this is the only failing of an otherwise a perfect story. I'm not sure what to think of the baker. I want to say that it's Emma who has left him but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Berryman?

If it counterpoints the dysfuncional family of the Rowbotham, then it's the other way around. If the two women are hurrying home to make dinner, then they're probably afraid that their husbands might get angry, which affirms the male domination. In the Rowbotham household, the father's role is almost absent. He's being treated harshly by his youngest daughter, and his middle daughter is the one who seems to be in charge. He's overall a weak character (like you stated in a previous post).

Within the moral framework of the story (not mine or yours or contemporary times) I think the women's subordination to their husbands is the norm and the willful women of the Rowbotham household are dysfunctional. The two women hurrying home is a strong contrast to the three daughters bossing their father around.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?
I think Lawrence rejects the learnedness of Hilda and the female domination of the household. The men in this story are reduced in power and stature and I don't think Lawrence approves. ;)