Existential and Nihilist Readings

[andrew.hidayat]

Hi to all,


Is the existential and nihilist readings the same?


Thanks in advance.

[Abraxas]

OK, I'm really not a specialist, but even though I thought your question was weird at first, I think I've understood how you could confuse the two... But just look at the names: nihilism comes from "nihil", nothing, and existentialism from existence - that should show you the difference.

I think the nihilists believed everything should be destroyed - sometimes literally! Whereas existentialists, such as Kierkegaard or Sartre (both rather different, though), were far from believing that. I am not really capable of developing further without saying something silly, alas...

[Zeruiah]

I'm no expert either, but I think that, even though existentialism and nihilism sometimes overlap, they are somewhat unrelated.

I am also under the impressions that saying "existentialism" is much like saying "religion," in that they're both very broad subjects that can have almost opposing ideas inside its own category.

I can recommend to you Nietzsche and Dostoevsky for nihilism. For existentialism, I recommend Albert Camus. There is, of course, much more to nihilism and existentialism, but those are the only authors I am familiar with.

[JBI]

The Nihilist reading is always different, because it derives nothing from the text. A true nihilist doesn't believe in meaning, therefore none can be discerned.

[Abraxas]

I can recommend to you Nietzsche and Dostoevsky for nihilism

But Nietzsche wasn't a nihilist, was he? If I got it right, he hated the nihilists!

And I'm not sure if what he thought of as nihilism is everyone's way of defining it: I think he saw it, for instance, in the ascetic idealism of priests, which amounted, for him, to a negation of life.

A simple book about existentialism, by the way, is Sartre's Existentialism is a humanism.

[JBI]

Dostoevsky wasn't a nihilist either. He was a Christian Existentialist.

[loe]

But Nietzsche wasn't a nihilist, was he? If I got it right, he hated the nihilists!
Exactly, but he was called a nihilist by others.
I'm no expert but Nietzsche didn't only destroy, he also had ideas to create something new, therefore I think it's not really justified to call him a pure nihilist.

For me existentialism means a way of living that don't want to destroy or create the world, but it shows how to cope with this world as it is. Especially Sartre concentrates on the human being itself - there is no refuge like religion (see Kierkegaard), every man an woman is totally responsible for his/hers life.

I hope I have expressed in the right way.

Greetings

[Oomoo]

"Nihilism" does not mean anything. There is no such philosophical movement. Radically different beliefs have been called "nihlist" by different people. Out of context, the term is meaningless.

Dostoevsky is not a Christian existentialist. His works do not have any fixed philosophical system. He is an important figure to existentialist thinkers, though.

[Kafka's Crow]

Exactly, but he was called a nihilist by others.
I'm no expert but Nietzsche didn't only destroy, he also had ideas to create something new, therefore I think it's not really justified to call him a pure nihilist.

For me existentialism means a way of living that don't want to destroy or create the world, but it shows how to cope with this world as it is. Especially Sartre concentrates on the human being itself - there is no refuge like religion (see Kierkegaard), every man an woman is totally responsible for his/hers life.

I hope I have expressed in the right way.

Greetings

That is a good enough definition. Well done. Yes essence precedes existence for existentialists. Man is not only free to make a choice but is 'condemned to make a choice' (Sartre). Since all things are in the design of the universe man struggles to make his mark, sometimes successfully sometimes not. It is the struggle that matters because this is the essence of life.

If you go to The University of California (Berkley) on iTunes U, there is an excellent course on Existentialism delivered by Hubert Drefus and he centred his whole course round The Brothers Karamazov as the greatest piece of 'Existentialist' literature. It is a huge course and Nietzche, Kierkegaard and FD are discussed in great details. You can download it for free and it should answer a lot many questions:

http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Philosophy/-/Existentialism-in-Literature-and-Film-Podcast/18193#listen

[mayneverhave]

I can recommend to you Nietzsche and Dostoevsky for nihilism. For existentialism, I recommend Albert Camus. There is, of course, much more to nihilism and existentialism, but those are the only authors I am familiar with.


Generally, Nietzsche is associated with the origins of existentialism. Many of Nietzsche's writings vehemently oppose nihilism. In fact, one is hard pressed to find any philosopher that would admit that they are believers in nihilism. Most of the time it is considered a negative outlook on life rather than an actual philosophy (which is arguable - by me, for example), and more like an anti-philosophy.

Dostoevsky was less of a philosopher than a novelist, and his works should primarily be read as literature rather than straight philosophy, but there are definitely existential ideas in most of his works (especially notes from underground).

Camus, for his part, disliked being grouped with the existentialist - or any movement for that matter. Camus is mostly concerned with absurdism; the majority of his works (or at least the most important - The myth of Sisyphus, The fall, the plague, The stranger, etc.) are concerned with man's relationship with the absurd and how to react to it.


Remember, the word existential has become, especially recently, an extremely broad umbrella term that almost anything philosophical is thrown under. If a movie has philosophical ideas in it, I'll undoubtedly hear someone say that it is existential. Strictly speaking though, existentialism refers specifically to the philosophical movement centered around Sartre in the 20th century.

[Zeruiah]

Hhmmm... That's odd. The first time I even heard the name Nietzsche, it was being used by a nihilist website (http://www.anus.com/zine/philosophy/). Like I said, I'm not an expert; I am simply regurgitating information I've picked up from multiple people, thus what I thought was an accepted opinion. Honestly, I don't have any substantial knowledge of philosophy at all. My ignorance can be exemplified in this thread (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32999).

I am reading some Nietzsche now to form my own interpretation of his works, and I am not seeing anything that can be called "nihilistic." Before, I thought this was because I had not gotten further enough, but it may be simply nonexistent in Nietzsche. Maybe I should form my own opinions from now on. . . :blush:

[loe]

Kafka's Crow thank you very much for this excellent link.
I'm looking forward to listening to every part. :)

In my opinion Nietzsche is one of the most misunderstood philosophers ever.

[bazarov]

Dostoevsky - his nihilistic views are expressed in The Possessed and Nietzsche was very impressed with that, he said later that it had great influence in him. His existentialism was expressed in Notes from The Underground but you cannot label Dostoevsky as Christian existentialist, nihilist or anything else - in every book he gives different views.

P.S. Zeruiah, nice avatar!

[JBI]

For nihilism you are better off looking up Michel Foucault. He was a self proclaimed nihilist thinker.

[johann cruyff]

For nihilism you are better off looking up Michel Foucault. He was a self proclaimed nihilist thinker.

I know his idea is the death of man,but I didn't think of him as a nihilist philosopher.Well,there are no nihilist philosophers actually,since it's not a real philosophy anyway.

[simon]

I find it interesting that people declare they are not a specialist on nihilism. One would think to be a specialist or expert one would have to destroy oneself. But after rereading this small quip I realize that this is more of a Woody Allen comment than a constructive comment.

[Aiculík]

For nihilism you are better off looking up Michel Foucault. He was a self proclaimed nihilist thinker.

I always thought Foucalt was structuralist??? And I know structuralism is concerned with anti-humanism (hope it is called like that in English, too)... but is that the same as nihilism? (I really don't have an idea of what's the difference, if there is any, so if you could explain, it would be great).

[JBI]

I always thought Foucalt was structuralist??? And I know structuralism is concerned with anti-humanism (hope it is called like that in English, too)... but is that the same as nihilism? (I really don't have an idea of what's the difference, if there is any, so if you could explain, it would be great). It is not the same as nihilism, but it is possible to be both.

[Morten]

No, nihilism and existentialism aren't the same. They would not have different names if they were. They are very different, though many religious people often consider existentialists nihilists. Sartre explains why that isn't so in Existentialism is a Humanism.

Neither Nietzsche nor Dostoevsky were nihilists. Dostoevsky, despite Notes from Underground and The Possessed, was vehemently anti-nihilist, if anything. He was a searching individual and a humanist. Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov particularly illustrate this point, the latter most of all.

[Abraxas]

And I know structuralism is concerned with anti-humanism (hope it is called like that in English, too)... but is that the same as nihilism? (I really don't have an idea of what's the difference, if there is any, so if you could explain, it would be great).

Structuralism and nihilism are nowhere alike - what the structuralists tried to do was to identify deep, universal structures in myth, language, literature, etc. It was called (not concerned with) antihumanist, mostly because it separated production of meaning and subject (ie, the author is not the one to give meaning to his/her text). A few well-known structuralists (mainly French): Lévi-Strauss, Jakobson, Genette, Barthes, Bourdieu.

Are there really any nihilist authors? A jesting poster said one couldn't very well be a specialist of nihilism...well, could a nihilist really write?

[Aiculík]

Structuralism and nihilism are nowhere alike - what the structuralists tried to do was to identify deep, universal structures in myth, language, literature, etc. It was called (not concerned with) antihumanist, mostly because it separated production of meaning and subject (ie, the author is not the one to give meaning to his/her text). A few well-known structuralists (mainly French): Lévi-Strauss, Jakobson, Genette, Barthes, Bourdieu.

Are there really any nihilist authors? A jesting poster said one couldn't very well be a specialist of nihilism...well, could a nihilist really write?

And what about Foucalt? Is he a structuralist or not?

[Abraxas]

I see him more as a post-structuralist, actually... like Deleuze or Derrida.

A good way to tell, he he, whether an author is a structuralist or a post-structuralist is whether he's easy to read or not: the structuralists are, on the whole, whereas the post-structuralists are not (ever try to get your head around Derrida? aaargh).

I joke, of course. :)