License To Have Kids?

[Lote-Tree]

We need license to drive, sell beer, hunt and in some parts of the world own a gun, to do buisness etc....Why?

Because we want only responsible people doing these things.

And yet any Tom, Dick and Harry and drug addict can have kids. Why is this?

Is having kids a less of a responsibility than owning a gun or license to drive?

What say chaps and chappeses?

Should we have license to have kids? :D

Edit: Mods can you amend my entry 2 in the poll to say *NOT* upto the job... :D

[Bakiryu]

But them again it would be better if the government actually fined people or better distributed contraceptives.

[barbara0207]

Lote, there's one option missing in your poll, which is why I can't vote: This is not a politically correct question. :D
But as you don't give a damn about political correctness, I'll answer anyway.

Why don't we make "Raising a child" a compulsory subject for everyone in our schools? That might help.

I know that there are projects in Europe and America to give young people an impression what looking after a baby really means. The students get a doll programmed to let out an ear-splitting howl at the inconvenient times (just like a real baby ...). Then the "parent" has to find out what to do (feed, change diaper, rock in your arms singing a lullaby etc.) If the "parent" neglects his or her duty, the "baby" may be "dead" after some time. Shocking experience, maybe, but perhaps then I wouldn't have to read headlines like "Baby smashed against the wall because he cried" any more.

[Granny5]

I don't believe that it's possible to determine who will be a responsible parent and who will not be one. I have known people who I would have thought would be great parents and they turned out to be awful. I felt sorry for their children. And I've known people who I would have thought, by their selfish actions, would have been terrible parents and they turned out to be wonderful parents. Who would make the decision as to who would be allowed a license and who would not? What kind of test would one have to pass to be allowed to be a parent?

[Niamh]

That is just wrong.

[Granny5]

That is just wrong.

What is just wrong? My posts or the OP?

[applepie]

I think that everyone should be given the chance to be a good parent. I will admit to believing in forced sterilization in some cases. People that abuse their children, neglect them, or allow them to be born addicted to drugs should not be allowed to have another chance, but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt initially.

[Granny5]

I think that everyone should be given the chance to be a good parent. I will admit to believing in forced sterilization in some cases. People that abuse their children, neglect them, or allow them to be born addicted to drugs should not be allowed to have another chance, but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt initially.

I think you're correct, Meg. I can't imagine a test that would determine who would be a good parent other than having a child. I know a ob-gyn who delivered the baby of a woman who didn't know if the father was her dad or her brother. The Dr. tied the woman's tubes without permission. Now she has had problems beyond belief. I think she is a hero. There are cases where having a child would be wrong under any conditions, like you've listed. But who is to say what kind of parent any one of us would be?

[Virgil]

You know Lote, you finally came up with a crazy poll I agree with. However, unfortunately it is unenforceable. But in the best of all worlds I would completely agree.


I think that everyone should be given the chance to be a good parent. I will admit to believing in forced sterilization in some cases. People that abuse their children, neglect them, or allow them to be born addicted to drugs should not be allowed to have another chance, but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt initially.
Yes, Meg, I pretty much agree with that, including the sterilization.


Why don't we make "Raising a child" a compulsory subject for everyone in our schools? That might help.

Really good idea Barbara. I wish it was compulsory. That would be great. But I can see all sorts of groups protesting it.

[B-Mental]

I would revoke a license on anyone that asks questions in such poor form.

[Shalot]

A memorable quote from the movie Parenthood:


You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming ***hole be a father

[motherhubbard]

I wonder what the standard would be, and I'm sure it would be money. You know, those rich kids turn out soooo well- just look at the Paris Hilton.

[jon1jt]

We need license to drive, sell beer, hunt and in some parts of the world own a gun, to do buisness etc....Why?

Because we want only responsible people doing these things.

And yet any Tom, Dick and Harry and drug addict can have kids. Why is this?

Is having kids a less of a responsibility than owning a gun or license to drive?

What say chaps and chappeses?

Should we have license to have kids? :D

Edit: Mods can you amend my entry 2 in the poll to say *NOT* upto the job... :D

ah, you're for a birth law. i say let women procreate all they want---on the condition that hard-working people are not required to fund a bunch of dead-beat social programs by a government whose entire existence is based on coercion, not voluntariness. :)

let's not kid ourselves: "Human rights" is to liberals what faith is to religion.

[TheFifthElement]

I suppose it's a good way of making sure the human race dies out.

Who would decide on the licencing? Supernanny? Would you get a 'trial run', and where would those kids come from.

The state can already take away your kids if you're a bad parent. The problem is that they then hand them over to more bad parents who are licenced to remain bad.

[Lote-Tree]

But them again it would be better if the government actually fined people or better distributed contraceptives.

Condom's are oozing out from every outlets in the UK and yet there is high rates of unwanted pregnancies...



Lote, there's one option missing in your poll, which is why I can't vote: This is not a politically correct question. :D
But as you don't give a damn about political correctness, I'll answer anyway.


He he :D



Why don't we make "Raising a child" a compulsory subject for everyone in our schools? That might help.


Thats a an execellent option! And nothing to do with political correctness. Why didn't I think of that!!



I know that there are projects in Europe and America to give young people an impression what looking after a baby really means. The students get a doll programmed to let out an ear-splitting howl at the inconvenient times (just like a real baby ...). Then the "parent" has to find out what to do (feed, change diaper, rock in your arms singing a lullaby etc.) If the "parent" neglects his or her duty, the "baby" may be "dead" after some time. Shocking experience, maybe, but perhaps then I wouldn't have to read headlines like "Baby smashed against the wall because he cried" any more.

If that helps in even very small way then that is something indeed!



I don't believe that it's possible to determine who will be a responsible parent and who will not be one.


Yes. Of course. But serial drug addicts can be ruled out easily until they are fit for raising a child?



I have known people who I would have thought would be great parents and they turned out to be awful.


Yes. That is too. But whatever it takes to help parenting I think would be a bonus.



Who would make the decision as to who would be allowed a license and who would not? What kind of test would one have to pass to be allowed to be a parent?

I think doctors would be good people. They can check individuals for Drug addiction etc...police to check past history of violence etc...


That is just wrong.

The Question obiviously has Deep Ethical Implications. Eugenics is one of them. But if it improves in very small way then that would be a good thing perhaps?


You know Lote, you finally came up with a crazy poll I agree with. However, unfortunately it is unenforceable.


:D

Off course it is unenforceable. Not only it is unenforceable it has very deep moral implications too. And I think those Moral Implications should at least be debated...


I would revoke a license on anyone that asks questions in such poor form.

I am sorry. Would you want to rephrase those questions for me? I would not mind changing them...:-)


ah, you're for a birth law.

More like wanting responsible parents.

[SleepyWitch]

Yes. Of course. But serial drug addicts can be ruled out easily until they are fit for raising a child?

Yes. That is too. But whatever it takes to help parenting I think would be a bonus.


I think doctors would be good people. They can check individuals for Drug addiction etc...police to check past history of violence etc...



in principle, I agree with you. but this approach kinda singles out lower class people. what do you do about irresponsible posh parents? e.g. there's this lady in my town who's an MP and her husband owns several big companies. they have a big posh house in the posh part of town. the lady is said to spend most of her time in Berlin (where it's rumoured she has a lover). the same goes for the husband (both Berlin and the lover).
their son died a couple of years back because he "fell" off the roof and broke his neck or something. a friend of his said he used to go on the roof for fun.
of course, after he fell of, the whole town was shocked at this "terrible tragedy".. but seriously this was an accident (or suicide?) that could have been avoided.
now what do you think Mrs. Posh did about that (if she was at home at all)? I'm sure she sat in the garden sipping her cocktail and did absolutely nothing to prevent him from playing on the roof. you know what some posh people are like: "Oh well, yeah, he likes going up there.".
there's this whole phenomenon of children from affluent homes who are totally neglected by their parents. but how do you spot those? they offer their kids everything and anything a kid could possible want in material terms, good schooling, trendy clothes, TV, expensive hobbies...

[TheFifthElement]

I think doctors would be good people. They can check individuals for Drug addiction etc...police to check past history of violence etc...


Yes, like Harold Shipman.

[Lote-Tree]

Sleepy it will never be enforceable. The Moral and Ethical Implications is high even to attempt it...and I think it will lead to Eugenics quite easily....

Only thing we can do is to educate people.

[Madhuri]

I don't think it will be possible. Any parent is a parent for the first time, and subsequently use their experience if they have more than one child. This experience maynot be applied fully as each child is different. As we grow from being a child to being an adult and learn in the process, so do the parents. It will help if there is some prior information about raising kids, but in most cases it's not so. We have to give the parents the benefit of doubt. They are also human beings and they raise their kids ot the best of their experience and knowledge. Which for some maybe good enough or maynot be.

Responsibility comes from experience (for that the parents need to have children) And, so to give license to only responsible parents can't be decided beforehand. Sometimes, even the drug dealers and the dons are nice to their kids, it's their own vices that they should deal with.

Also, in a way (if you think), the 'license' to have children is given to only married couples as per their religion. It is assumed that the couple gettimg married are responsible enough to take care of a family. I am saying 'assumed' because even if its made a law it will still be subjective (I have yet to see a law that is subjective), as there cannot be fixed parameters to deicde who can be a responsible parent.

Just my two cents :p.

[Lote-Tree]

Just my two cents :p.


At least you have given your "two cents" on this. Some don't give a damn and have kids...

[Madhuri]

I meant that, these are just my thoughts, that will hardly add any value to the discussion, so I said so. Don't take it otherwise. :)

[Lote-Tree]

I meant that, these are just my thoughts, that will hardly add any value to the discussion, so I said so. Don't take it otherwise. :)

I did not :D

I meant to say is that at least you thought about it but others don't even think... :-)

[Virgil]

ah, you're for a birth law. i say let women procreate all they want---on the condition that hard-working people are not required to fund a bunch of dead-beat social programs by a government whose entire existence is based on coercion, not voluntariness. :)

let's not kid ourselves: "Human rights" is to liberals what faith is to religion.
Wow, you sound like me Jon. Are your ideas evolving? :lol:


in principle, I agree with you. but this approach kinda singles out lower class people. what do you do about irresponsible posh parents? e.g. there's this lady in my town who's an MP and her husband owns several big companies. they have a big posh house in the posh part of town. the lady is said to spend most of her time in Berlin (where it's rumoured she has a lover). the same goes for the husband (both Berlin and the lover).


Hopefully it wasn't the same lover. :D There may be some ambiguity there in your syntax. :lol:

[SleepyWitch]

Hopefully it wasn't the same lover. :D There may be some ambiguity there in your syntax. :lol:

hahahah :) yeah, you're right. nope, it wasn't the same lover, although if it had been, maybe Mrs Posh and her husband would have spent more time together ;)

[Niamh]

What is just wrong? My posts or the OP?

Sorry Granny i meant the what the thread is about is just wrong. Its immoral, unjust, inhuman, and silly. Having children is apart of our nature. The thought of licencing our human right is just wrong.

[Lote-Tree]

Sorry Granny i meant the what the thread is about is just wrong. Its immoral, unjust, inhuman, and silly. Having children is apart of our nature. The thought of licencing our human right is just wrong.

Our nature is also to hunt and yet that is licensed Niamh?

Is that also immoral and wrong?

[Petrarch's Love]

Originally Posted by jon1jt
i say let women procreate all they want

Glad to hear this Jon. I agree that it's the men procreating that we need to control. :D

[amalia1985]

I think that this is a serious issue for someone to contemplate on.

I have often found myself whispering "but how can those or these people have children?''. But, it is in our nature-yes, as many other things,- and a kind of hope that simply cannot be taken away, even if the people in question would not be considered "good, responsible parents."

I have come across many couples who would fit to the classification of "responsible people", and their children ended up horribly. It's not black or white...

[Lote-Tree]

Glad to hear this Jon. I agree that it's the men procreating that we need to control. :D

As long as this control does not include "danda" chopping then its fine by me :D

[SleepyWitch]

As long as this control does not include "danda" chopping then its fine by me :D

how about a well-aimed kick? :D

[MrD]

In England the birthrate is low, real low. Middle class people concentrate on careers or money issues and aren't having the numbers of kids they used to (well, medical issues now mean virtually all our babies survive to adulthood now)

If it wasn't for single mothers and immigration then in two generations we'd be devastated for population. Seriously! So we can't knock single mothers doing their bit for the countries birthrate (even if we mutter about socialisation of those kids) and we can't knock immigration (although laws coming in soon mean they all have to speak English!)

[Virgil]

In England the birthrate is low, real low. Middle class people concentrate on careers or money issues and aren't having the numbers of kids they used to (well, medical issues now mean virtually all our babies survive to adulthood now)

If it wasn't for single mothers and immigration then in two generations we'd be devastated for population. Seriously! So we can't knock single mothers doing their bit for the countries birthrate (even if we mutter about socialisation of those kids) and we can't knock immigration (although laws coming in soon mean they all have to speak English!)

I think that is all across Europe, MrD. What's the matter with Europe? You don't believe in children anymore?

[TheFifthElement]

Only thing we can do is to educate people.

Education on it's own isn't enough, there needs to be better support systems in place after a child is born, to support and aid the parents without overstepping the mark, or interfering. The current system is either too heavy handed or non-existent, so parents are left to muddle through as best they can. Take on top of that that the only example they have to follow is that of their own parents, which might not be the best because their parents didn't have good support either, plus the emotional magnification that parenthood adds to your life, and it's no wonder that a lot of parents don't necessarily, from an outside point of view, always 'get it right', or appear to behave 'responsibly'. And the fact remains that until the child is grown you don't know if you've been a 'successful' parent or not, and those decisions that you make that you think are responsible or for the best, could be the decisions that have the worst impact on the child's life.

On top of that, just because someone has a licence for something doesn't mean that they're 'responsible'. All the licence means is that they can do something, not that they will do it well/in a responsible (whatever that means) manner.

[SleepyWitch]

Education on it's own isn't enough
yeah, I agree. there was this woman in Germany who bashed like 2 or 3 of her newly-born babies to death and burried them in a flowerbox because her boyfriend didn't want her to have any more children.
now, this woman was a nurse! how come a nurse doesn't know about contraception? I mean, even if the boyfriend refused to use condoms, she could have taken the pill? so I don't think this can be reduced to knowing about contraception, it's also got to do with women knowing their rights and taking responsibility for their own lives.

[Lote-Tree]

Education on it's own isn't enough, there needs to be better support systems in place after a child is born


And better support system would be to prevent drug addicts having kids? Is that not more corrective action? Make them see sense?

[TheFifthElement]

And better support system would be to prevent drug addicts having kids? Is that not more corrective action? Make them see sense?

Define drug addict ;)

No seriously, the whole idea of a licencing system is completely flawed, it's neither reasonable nor practical.

Take your drug addict example today. Consider the following:

1. What if there is a change in the law, and drugs which are currently considered illegal become legal. If someone is 'addicted' to legal drugs, what is wrong with that?
2. Does being addicted to drugs automatically make you an 'irresponsible' parent?
3. How would you prevent the pregnancy?
4. If a drug addict or other 'non-licenced' person accidentally becomes pregnant what happens then? Forced termination? Hardly fair on the baby. Push them into the fostering/adoption system? ('cos there are no horror stories there are there - and these systems are already policed heavily by the Gov't).
5. How do you police after licencing? What if someone gets a licence, has a child, and then (perhaps because of the child) adopts behaviour which results in the withdrawal of their licence? Do they lose the child? Does this make them irresponsible?

And consider how many people that may have turned their lives around and become 'responsible' citizens because they've had a child? Often children can be the making of people because they can force you into a position where you have to think about what's best for someone else, instead of just yourself. But the other side to that is that children put you under a lot of stress, they change you. So if you're not the same person when you have the child, as you were when you got the licence, how then is the licencing system effective?

[NikolaiI]

Another good reason for licensing is over-population. I don't think families should really be having 10-14 kids. It seems apparent to me that if everyone did this, Earth would become miserable for all of us.

Of course it's our right to have kids, but if we all exercise that to the fullest extent, then, well...you know, crowding.

So maybe I would be in favor of licensing so that people will only have 1-4 kids.

Also what if there were a stipulation that we adopted all orphans before having more kids?

[mercy_mankind]

license to have kids
That is very important matter to discuss . thank you .
This problem is so common , bringing up children .
Some people could not bring their children well ,
simply because LOSSES thing is not to give , We see irresponsible youths because their parents teach them Irresponsibility ...
to Solve this problem we Have to Improve our way in bringing up children ,
and this thing will happen when we speak with parents , give them reports and cds , told them how to deal with their children in the Different ages of life , and direct them with affectionateness .
we know the dangerous changeable in our world, Nowadays , Smoking , Drugs, Deflecting, Terrorism .....etc.
All these things threatening our children .
but when the parents became so wise people , they will put the base of the life to their children , and they will never became afraid of all these changeable .
and this is the associations's role ,
but we could not at all put this license .
Thank you again ,

[NikolaiI]

I want to have kids! But I will not get a license!

How about; it's our nature to have more parasites, and shorter life spans?

[Bakiryu]

I would rather adopt than having my own kids. Think about it: all those poor lonely children no one cares about.

I agree with NikolaiI we should adopt more of them instead of acting like jackrabbits.

[TheFifthElement]

I would rather adopt than having my own kids. Think about it: all those poor lonely children no one cares about.

I agree with NikolaiI we should adopt more of them instead of acting like jackrabbits.

I would love to adopt a child, if I were rich I would have a houseful of them. We may still do so, when we're more settled and the time is right, currently my job means that I am out of the house from 7am - 6pm, I would not adopt a child to leave it all day. I'm hoping that this will be able to change, soon.

[Virgil]

I haven't announced this to the world yet, but my wife and I are in the process of adopting right now. It does take a while to get through the system, but I think within another six months we should have a child. :banana:

Hahaha, I just thought of it. Going through the adoption system is like getting a licence. :lol:

[Granny5]

Congratulation Virgil!!! That's wonderful.

[Nossa]

We need license to drive, sell beer, hunt and in some parts of the world own a gun, to do buisness etc....Why?

Because we want only responsible people doing these things.

And yet any Tom, Dick and Harry and drug addict can have kids. Why is this?

Is having kids a less of a responsibility than owning a gun or license to drive?

What say chaps and chappeses?

Should we have license to have kids? :D

Edit: Mods can you amend my entry 2 in the poll to say *NOT* upto the job... :D

There is no easy answer to this question. It's not a secret that having kids is a big responsibility, and probably the biggest of all, but then again I've seen my parents and many others who took this respinsibility and succeeded in it (if you consider me a success anyways :lol:)
If they make a law to make people stop having kids I'd personally consider it as a form of Eugenics, even though that latter doesn't apply to everyone. But yeah, everyone should be granted the chance of having kids, and nobody is ever ready to have children anyways. It's like any other risk in life, if you're afraid to do things just cuz they might be a huge responsibility, you'd end up doing right about nothing in it. I'll be against it, it's personal and it should be open for anyone.

@Virgil: This is great news! Congrates :D

[samercury]

I haven't announced this to the world yet, but my wife and I are in the process of adopting right now. It does take a while to get through the system, but I think within another six months we should have a child. :banana:

That's great- congrats! :D

[Virgil]

That's great- congrats! :D

Thank you Same. But it hasn't happened yet, and this process is complicated. Let's hope it works out.

[TheFifthElement]

Thank you Same. But it hasn't happened yet, and this process is complicated. Let's hope it works out.

Well I've got everything crossed for you Virgil. You'll be a great Dad, and the kid will be lucky to have you. I really hope it works out for you. Keep us posted.

[Virgil]

Thank you Fifth. I will start a post with an announcement. It is an international adoption (Vietnam) so we will have to leave for three weeks to go through their process and of course pick up the child.

[Bakiryu]

Congrats Virgil!

[Virgil]

No, no, Baki. Not yet. Just keep your fingers crossed.

[Shalot]

Thank you Fifth. I will start a post with an announcement. It is an international adoption (Vietnam) so we will have to leave for three weeks to go through their process and of course pick up the child.

Is it very expensive? One of the ladies at work adopted a baby from Russia. Do you know how old the child is?



Anyway, I hope it works out.

[Virgil]

Is it very expensive? One of the ladies at work adopted a baby from Russia. Do you know how old the child is?



Anyway, I hope it works out.

Thanks Shalot. It is expensive. I don't have a a complete understanding of what it will cost yet. I have set money aside. I just hope that my car doesn't die and I have to get a new one. The goevernment will give us a tax break though to offset it. I'll let you know when it's all said and done.

[Bakiryu]

No, no, Baki. Not yet. Just keep your fingers crossed.

Well, I hope everything comes through then Virgil.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z124/cc2742/Good%20luck/good252520luck.gif

[Virgil]

Thank you Baki. You're sweet. :)

[samercury]

Thank you Same. But it hasn't happened yet, and this process is complicated. Let's hope it works out.

It will work out

[SleepyWitch]

I haven't announced this to the world yet, but my wife and I are in the process of adopting right now. It does take a while to get through the system, but I think within another six months we should have a child. :banana:

Hahaha, I just thought of it. Going through the adoption system is like getting a licence. :lol:

holy cow! Virgil's gonna be a father! :banana: congrats Mr and Mrs Virgil!

http://www.familylobby.com/common/tt674460fltt.gif (http://www.familylobby.com)

hey, that means I'll be an aunt! roughly speaking :D (or a virtual step-witch at least)*JOKING*

[Nossa]

Hope everything goes as planned Virgil :D Congrates in advance :D

[Madhuri]

Good Luck, Virgil ! That's a great news. I hope all goes well :)

[Petrarch's Love]

Best of luck with the adoption process Virgil. It's wonderful that you may soon be a father. When the time is right we'll have to throw you a baby shower around here. :D

[Virgil]

Oh my, I really didn't mean to let the cat out of the bag yet. Thank you all. The process is not easy so I didn't want to count my chickens before they're hatched. To let you know, we are now fourth on the list; we started at 10th back in May or June, I can't quite remember. So we're more than half way there. :)

[Petrarch's Love]

I know the adoption process can be really long, and wish you the blessing of patience. Some friends of my family adopted a child awhile back and it took them a long time, but they used to joke that even if it took a few months longer than having a kid yourself, it still saved a lot of wear and tear on the wife. ;)

[metal134]

Sounds very Orwellian to me.

[Lily Adams]

You know, seeing where the world is going now, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. Why not? The world is so overpopulated and...



this reminds me of Idiocracy, you know that?

I also like the idea of mandatory parenting classes in school.

[metal134]

If you want me to be totally honest, I couldn't care less how much such a measure would be beneficial to society. I wouldn't be willing to do it, period.

[Bakiryu]

I also like the idea of mandatory parenting classes in school.

What about those of us who will not have children?

I wouldn't go to that class in the first place!

[Lote-Tree]

Hahaha, I just thought of it. Going through the adoption system is like getting a licence. :lol:

Ah the Irony of it!!! Any Tom, Dick and Harry can have a child and no one does a check on them. And yet if you want to adopt? Oh the irony irony !!!!

As for adopting Virgil - good one you. All the best :-)

One of my colleagues have adopted three kids all in one go :D

[AuntShecky]

You know, I was just reading the newspaper about a court case in Rochester NY in which a judge had ordered a couple NOT to have any more children, as they were drug-addicted and found guilty of neglecting their four children.(The kids are in foster homes.) An appeal to a higher court shot the judge's original ruling down, stating that the
court cannot remove one's human right to procreate.
That's probably appropriate: governments do have a tendency to overextend their own power at the expense of
private citizens. What would be the criteria for outlawing
parenthood for couples: drug addiction? Well, yeah, because the toxins can be transferred to the fetus. Neglectful ways? Yes, because we must fulfill the child's basic needs, food, shelter, clothing, supervision. What about poverty? Just because a couple is "poor" should that proclude having a child? So what would be done if a
pregnancy -- "intended" or not -- should begin? Would a government be put in the position of having to mandate an
abortion? You see, we're getting into some pretty shaky moral territory.
On the other hand, you don't have to be a social scientist to realize that there are some people who are unfit to have children.
Maybe society has the "birth control" idea backwards. Instead of taking pills to PREVENT pregnancy, let's make everybody temporarily sterile and only those who really want to have a family can take pills for conception. What are you going to do? Spike the municipal water supply as they do with flouride?
See-- we're getting into Aldous Huxley, Jonathan "A Modest Proposal" Swift territory.

[Lote-Tree]

See-- we're getting into Aldous Huxley, Jonathan "A Modest Proposal" Swift territory.

As I said before the question has very high moral and ethical implications. With advances in Genetics and Medicine...those questions are crucial to us as human beings...

[Virgil]

You know, I was just reading the newspaper about a court case in Rochester NY in which a judge had ordered a couple NOT to have any more children, as they were drug-addicted and found guilty of neglecting their four children.(The kids are in foster homes.) An appeal to a higher court shot the judge's original ruling down, stating that the
court cannot remove one's human right to procreate.
That's probably appropriate: governments do have a tendency to overextend their own power at the expense of
private citizens. What would be the criteria for outlawing
parenthood for couples: drug addiction? Well, yeah, because the toxins can be transferred to the fetus. Neglectful ways? Yes, because we must fulfill the child's basic needs, food, shelter, clothing, supervision. What about poverty? Just because a couple is "poor" should that proclude having a child? So what would be done if a
pregnancy -- "intended" or not -- should begin? Would a government be put in the position of having to mandate an
abortion? You see, we're getting into some pretty shaky moral territory.
On the other hand, you don't have to be a social scientist to realize that there are some people who are unfit to have children.
Maybe society has the "birth control" idea backwards. Instead of taking pills to PREVENT pregnancy, let's make everybody temporarily sterile and only those who really want to have a family can take pills for conception. What are you going to do? Spike the municipal water supply as they do with flouride?
See-- we're getting into Aldous Huxley, Jonathan "A Modest Proposal" Swift territory.

Very good post Aunty. There is no way to enforce such a law in a free society.

[applepie]

I haven't announced this to the world yet, but my wife and I are in the process of adopting right now. It does take a while to get through the system, but I think within another six months we should have a child. :banana:

Hahaha, I just thought of it. Going through the adoption system is like getting a licence. :lol:

Congratulations Virgil! I just found this, and that is great news. I wish the best to both of you:)

[Nossa]

What would be the criteria for outlawing
parenthood for couples: drug addiction? Well, yeah, because the toxins can be transferred to the fetus. Neglectful ways? Yes, because we must fulfill the child's basic needs, food, shelter, clothing, supervision. What about poverty? Just because a couple is "poor" should that proclude having a child? So what would be done if a
pregnancy -- "intended" or not -- should begin? Would a government be put in the position of having to mandate an
abortion? You see, we're getting into some pretty shaky moral territory.


I totally agree. There are no moral or legal basic to such a law. I suppose it all comes down to the people, if they think outside themselves and determine if they're willing to take over such a responsibility, then it's thier choice. But having a law, that would be probably based on sterilizing people, this would be just another form of Eugenics, which is, for me, just another sort of discrimination according to social standard or the IQ rate.

[manolia]

Should we have license to have kids? :D


Does that mean, that we'd need a license to have sex as well? :lol:

[Shalot]

Does that mean, that we'd need a license to have sex as well? :lol:

You know, that's not a bad idea. Especially if you're one of those "no sex before marriage types." Seriously, what if you married someone only to find that you're not er, compatible. Things don't match up well. Things don't live up to expectations. It'd be like getting a license to drive. You get a manual and you have to undergo a physical and a health screen and take an exam on it before you were deemed suitable to participate in the act itself (with another person)

Actually, I am only partially kidding

[Lote-Tree]

Does that mean, that we'd need a license to have sex as well? :lol:

No way!!! Love sex too much :D

Sex good - unwanted pregnancies bad !!!:D

[Niamh]

I haven't announced this to the world yet, but my wife and I are in the process of adopting right now. It does take a while to get through the system, but I think within another six months we should have a child. :banana:

Hahaha, I just thought of it. Going through the adoption system is like getting a licence. :lol:

I wish you the best of luck Virgil!

[Lily Adams]

What about those of us who will not have children?

I wouldn't go to that class in the first place!


Well, yeah, I'm one of them according to where my life path is heading, but what if you change your mind?

Then again it would probably turn into one of the "well-rounded" things, which I totally agree with except for the act that they make money off of you being there...

[manolia]

No way!!! Love sex too much :D


Hehe how can you license procreation without licensing sex as well? Think about it..Would you force people to wear condoms *(and how can you be sure? Will you place cameras in their bedrooms?) So no. What happens when a careless perhaps irresponsible woman gets pregnant and fails to pass the license test? Force her to have an abortion? Force her to give her child for adoption? That would be very inhuman ;)
Hehehe i know this thread is meant for fun but i thought, what the heck..let's get serious.


*not a bad thing actually

[Lote-Tree]

Hehe how can you license procreation without licensing sex as well?


Easy. Women do that all the time with the use of Pill. Men should also have Pill. Remember Pill freed women from Reproduction. And same way men will be freed from impregnating.


Sex good. unwanted kids bad.




Think about it..Would you force people to wear condoms *(and how can you be sure?


You can't force anyone do anything. But you can only educate them.



Will you place cameras in their bedrooms?)


Sounds voyeuristic :D



What happens when a careless perhaps irresponsible woman gets pregnant and fails to pass the license test?


They should be made to wear pants on their heads and paraded on the High Street and pelted with tomatoes :D



Force her to have an abortion? Force her to give her child for adoption? That would be very inhuman ;)


Of course it would be. That why education is the only way...



Hehehe i know this thread is meant for fun but i thought, what the heck..let's get serious.


You can make it serious as you can :D


SEX is GOOD unwanted pregnacies and kids BAD :D

[manolia]

Easy. Women do that all the time with the use of Pill. Men should also have Pill. Remember Pill freed women from Reproduction. And same way men will be freed from impregnating.

Well it seems gynaicologists have various opinions about the pill and what it does to a woman's body when taken for many years. So again, you can't force all women take the pill (i could tell you my opinion about the pill if you like).




You can't force anyone do anything. But you can only educate them.

Definately agree. But if you educate everybody on earth (which is a bit difficult and unfortunately unrealistic) we wouldn't have to discuss about license to have kids. You could educate everybody to behave well to their future kid. (Well this is as realistic as educating everybody to have safe sex).




They should be made to wear pants on their heads and paraded on the High Street and pelted with tomatoes :D.

:lol: :lol: you remind me of a bible quotation, but i only know it in greek :D




You can make it serious as you can :D

:lol: With you around? That would be difficult :p

[Lote-Tree]

Well it seems gynaicologists have various opinions about the pill and what it does to a woman's body when taken for many years. So again, you can't force all women take the pill (i could tell you my opinion about the pill if you like).


As I said you can't force anyone to do anything. Only educate them.



Definately agree. But if you educate everybody on earth (which is a bit difficult and unfortunately unrealistic) we wouldn't have to discuss about license to have kids. You could educate everybody to behave well to their future kid. (Well this is as realistic as educating everybody to have safe sex).


As I said licensing is unworkable. And yet it is workable in when adopting...strange...



:lol: :lol: you remind me of a bible quotation, but i only know it in greek :D


He he :D



:lol: With you around? That would be difficult :p

I can be serious too :D
In fact I am a very "serious" persion ;-)

[TheFifthElement]

SEX is GOOD unwanted pregnacies and kids BAD :D

A little naive Lote, a little naive.

Kids are wonderful.

Unexpected pregnancies can be a blessing.

Sex isn't always good (especially for women) ;)

[cactus]

Hi all,

Sorry if I repeat things that others have already mentioned (I can't be bothered reading all the posts in this thread from the start).

Here is my 2 cents worth of input....

I find China's one child policy disgusting especially the penalty for those who violate this policy. I understand the issue here is not about the one child policy but any restriction/licensing would require penalty for violators and well... that would be going a bit too far, regardless what the penalty is....

I believe the focus should be on helping potential parents learn the ins and outs of parenthood so they are more prepared when they have children.

It is a pity that today's education have a stronger focus on academic achievements and lesser on helping children develop skills that would help them live as "social beings".

The Vietnamese (and I believe most Asian cultures have something similar) has a saying and it goes something like this "Tiên học lễ hậu học văn" which meant "first learn manners then learn letters". In other words, the Vietnamese value teaching children on how to be good human beings above all else.

God, I think I have sidetracked from the discussion at hand...

Cactus

[Virgil]

Hi all,

Sorry if I repeat things that others have already mentioned (I can't be bothered reading all the posts in this thread from the start).

Here is my 2 cents worth of input....

I find China's one child policy disgusting especially the penalty for those who violate this policy. I understand the issue here is not about the one child policy but any restriction/licensing would require penalty for violators and well... that would be going a bit too far, regardless what the penalty is....

I believe the focus should be on helping potential parents learn the ins and outs of parenthood so they are more prepared when they have children.

It is a pity that today's education have a stronger focus on academic achievements and lesser on helping children develop skills that would help them live as "social beings".

The Vietnamese (and I believe most Asian cultures have something similar) has a saying and it goes something like this "Tiên học lễ hậu học văn" which meant "first learn manners then learn letters". In other words, the Vietnamese value teaching children on how to be good human beings above all else.

God, I think I have sidetracked from the discussion at hand...

Cactus

Quite a good point if you ask me, Cactus. "First learn manners, then learn letters." I like that a lot.

[manolia]

As I said you can't force anyone to do anything. Only educate them.

Well, taking the pill has nothing to do with education ;) You can educate women on how to take care of their bodies (and if you ask me, this is strictly my opinion based on what i have read in doctor's magazines and heard from my doctor friends, the pill is excluded ;) )



I can be serious too :D
In fact I am a very "serious" persion ;-)

Yeah i know Lote. I was just teasing you. Hope you weren't offended ;)

[Lote-Tree]

Well, taking the pill has nothing to do with education ;) You can educate women on how to take care of their bodies (and if you ask me, this is strictly my opinion based on what i have read in doctor's magazines and heard from my doctor friends, the pill is excluded ;) )


Educate them in the sense that having kids is a huge responsibility.



Yeah i know Lote. I was just teasing you. Hope you weren't offended ;)

I am very offended. In fact I crying loads :D

[manolia]

Educate them in the sense that having kids is a huge responsibility.

hehehe we have reached an agreement :D
But you know there are always barriers at education ;)




I am very offended. In fact I crying loads :D

Hehehe for a moment i thought that you might actually be a sensitive person and get offended every once in a while :D

[Lote-Tree]

hehehe we have reached an agreement :D


Of course we have. We have never differed and because I am very agreeable person :D



Hehehe for a moment i thought that you might actually be a sensitive person and get offended every once in a while :D

He he :D

No. Don't get easily offended :D

[Bakiryu]

Well, yeah, I'm one of them according to where my life path is heading, but what if you change your mind?



if I change my mind, I changed my mind. But I wouldn't do it.

The first thing I thought when I read this thread was:

Do you really think Lote should be allowed to reproduce and take over the world? :lol:

I'm just saying it. (Hope he doesn't read it too :blush:)

[TheFifthElement]

Do you really think Lote should be allowed to reproduce and take over the world? :lol:


Aaargh! Now there's a thought!

Actually, I think Lote would probably make a really good Dad, all these 'challenging' questions are really good practice for a child :)



Educate them in the sense that having kids is a huge responsibility.

I think people probably know that now, but human beings are risk takers, and sometimes we get it wrong. There are still probably more planned ('wanted' in your terms) pregnancies than unplanned ones. Sometimes people think that it's a responsibility that they're ready for, but you can't really know that until you're there, sometimes people underestimate the responsibility. To quote the Human League 'We're only human' ( ;) ), its human nature to get things wrong, only when actions are malicious should they be punishable.

Are you at risk of curtailing the freedoms of the many because of the mistakes of the few? (oh no, I now sound like a liberal 'human rights' activist, and I'm quoting the Human League. Look what you've done Lote!)

[Lote-Tree]

The first thing I thought when I read this thread was:

Do you really think Lote should be allowed to reproduce and take over the world? :lol:


He he :D

But be assured I am not into Power :D I am into Love.

Love the ever-expansive feeling that knows no hate. Love the ever-expressing feeling that knows no boundaries...

Love and Power are equal and opposite :D



I'm just saying it. (Hope he doesn't read it too :blush:)

Come Baki if I had power my moto would be : make LOVE not War :D


Actually, I think Lote would probably make a really good Dad, all these 'challenging' questions are really good practice for a child :)


You are too kind. I think I would be a lousy father...I am a Thinker - an Ideas man but crap at practicalities... :-(



Sometimes people think that it's a responsibility that they're ready for, but you can't really know that until you're there


True. But if evidence is that 16 year olds and drug addicts make terrible fathers - then this should be educated into them?



oh no, I now sound like a liberal 'human rights' activist, and I'm quoting the Human League. Look what you've done Lote!)

He he :D

But don't you think that is an Arrogant Position to give ourselves rights? Vanity?

Homo Sapiens also Homo Arrogant?

[TheFifthElement]

You are too kind. I think I would be a lousy father...I am a Thinker - an Ideas man but crap at practicalities... :-(


You'd learn. Also there's a 50/50 chance that the child would be a Thinker too - so you'd understand each other.



True. But if evidence is that 16 year olds and drug addicts make terrible fathers - then this should be educated into them?

If they don't take their other education, why would they listen to this? Education on its own is not enough. Better post birth support systems are necessary.



But don't you think that is an Arrogant Position to give ourselves rights? Vanity?

Homo Sapiens also Homo Arrogant?

Uh oh! I see another thread in the making!

[jon1jt]

Wow, you sound like me Jon. Are your ideas evolving? :lol:

:lol: i'm a strange mix that even i can't figure out virgil.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." whitman ;)

[Virgil]

:lol: i'm a strange mix that even i can't figure out virgil.

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." whiman ;)

I've used that same quote myself.:) In fact I once had it as a signature here. :D

[jon1jt]

I've used that same quote myself.:) In fact I once had it as a signature here. :D

see that...you and me, we're the same. :p

[SleepyWitch]

you two should get married :D

[Virgil]

you too should get married :D

Here I am catching up on yesterday's posts, thinking, Hmm, Lote has another dumb question out there... da, da, da oh seems like a boring day...da, da, da that girl wants to pierce what?...da, da, da...and then here's your post. :lol: :lol: That cracked me up. :lol: I like Jon, but not quite that much. :D

[Lote-Tree]

Here I am catching up on yesterday's posts, thinking, Hmm, Lote has another dumb question out there...


Thats just charming that!!!! :D

It's very hard to Amuse Virgil!!! though I have tried. I blame myself being too good to you :D

My questions are much better than "lets count to 10,000 and how you feel threads etc..." :D

[Virgil]

Thats just charming that!!!! :D

It's very hard to Amuse Virgil!!! though I have tried. I blame myself being too good to you :D

:lol: I didn't say your dumb questions weren't amusing. I'm sorry Lote. Actually I look forward to the discussions you initiate. They have made lit net livlier. :)

[SleepyWitch]

Here I am catching up on yesterday's posts, thinking, Hmm, Lote has another dumb question out there... da, da, da oh seems like a boring day...da, da, da that girl wants to pierce what?...da, da, da...and then here's your post. :lol: :lol: That cracked me up. :lol: I like Jon, but not quite that much. :D
PS: of course I meant "you two" not "you too".. I'm so spelling-challenged these days :sick:

[Lote-Tree]

:lol: I didn't say your dumb questions weren't amusing. I'm sorry Lote. Actually I look forward to the discussions you initiate. They have made lit net livlier. :)

But Sir Virgilot my questions has always a very deep socio-ethico-moral-spiritual implications - they never are dumb :D ...they only "appear" to be "dumb" to old nookie-deprived Faulkner professors in tweed pants :D

[pinkmoon]

Irresponsible people should not think of having kids since they know they are not
welling to be responsible.

But one can have kids if he feel he will be responsible for their neeeeeds,

if he will not be responsible, he should think seriously before having any,

and we still have the right to have kids, and so we don't need a license.:)

[Virgil]

But Sir Virgilot my questions has always a very deep socio-ethico-moral-spiritual implications - they never are dumb :D ...they only "appear" to be "dumb" to old nookie-deprived Faulkner professors in tweed pants :D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I may be old, I may be nookie deprived, and while i do like Faulkner, I'm not a professor (thank God) and I don't wear tweed pants. :D

[Pensive]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I may be old,

And I always thought you considered yourself young? :p

[SleepyWitch]

what's wrong with tweed pants? I've always rather liked them... I also happen to like tweed jackets with patches on the elbows :)
(--> I am boring, but that should go in the other thread)

[Virgil]

what's wrong with tweed pants? I've always rather liked them... I also happen to like tweed jackets with patches on the elbows :)
(--> I am boring, but that should go in the other thread)

This is how I go to work. :D :p

http://www.upm.cz/storage/popup_41e2937a900c0.jpg

:D Actually nothing wrong. I thought Lote was talking about those obnoxious pants that golfer's wear. Turns out tweed pants are common. I must have lots of tweed pants. And I do have a tweed jacket with the patches on the elbow. ;)

[jon1jt]

Here I am catching up on yesterday's posts, thinking, Hmm, Lote has another dumb question out there... da, da, da oh seems like a boring day...da, da, da that girl wants to pierce what?...da, da, da...and then here's your post. :lol: :lol: That cracked me up. :lol: I like Jon, but not quite that much. :D

aw, c'mon virge get over here and give me a big hug, i promise not to kiss you or grab your butt or anything. :eek2: virge, what do you say you do a road trip with me in the spring and in our travels we'll...ahem...appreciate all the pretty girls. :p oops, i forgot that you're married. :lol:


you two should get married :D

it's all sleepywitch's fault...and lote too. :p

[Virgil]

aw, c'mon virge get over here and give me a big hug, i promise not to kiss you or grab your butt or anything. :eek2: virge, what do you say you do a road trip with me in the spring and in our travels we'll...ahem...appreciate all the pretty girls. :p oops, i forgot that you're married. :lol:



it's all sleepywitch's fault...and lote too. :p

Yes it is. :lol: If I wasn't married I would take you up on that trip. :)

[SleepyWitch]

Yes it is. :lol: If I wasn't married I would take you up on that trip. :)

of course it's all my fault. if there's some problem, blame it on the witch.. blablabla, we've so been there... and you could burn her a bit,too, she's sure to have done some crime, so you can't go wrong... grrr grumblegrumblemumble :lol: *joking*

[Lote-Tree]

it's all sleepywitch's fault...and lote too. :p

That's charming that is!!! :D

First it's the dumb questions and now promoting man to man liasons :D

Yep. Lote is the the forum's favourite whipping boy :-(

But it's ok I can take it like a man :D

Because I am a MACHO guy :D

[jon1jt]

of course it's all my fault. if there's some problem, blame it on the witch.. blablabla, we've so been there... and you could burn her a bit,too, she's sure to have done some crime, so you can't go wrong... grrr grumblegrumblemumble :lol: *joking*

so is this the case, SleepyWitch is a troublemaker?!? What say you litnetters? :p


Yes it is. :lol: If I wasn't married I would take you up on that trip. :)


well, there's always the chance that you could be divorced before springtime, in which case, you'll know where to find me. :p


But it's ok I can take it like a man :D

Because I am a MACHO guy :D

lote, you could have told ol' virge that you're a ladies' man. he would have become quite jealous. don't forget, virgil is married. :ladysman: