Lawrence poem: The Elephant is Slow to Mate

[ktd222]

Ok, I wanted to discuss, and hear other peoples take on this poem.

FROM

The Elephant is Slow to Mate


The elephant, the huge old beast,
is slow to mate;
he finds a female, they show no haste
they wait

for the sympathy in their vast shy hearts
slowly, slowly to rouse
as they loiter along the river-beds
and drink and browse

....

http://www.poets.org/m/dsp_poem.php?prmMID=15346


by D.H. Lawrence

[kilted exile]

Ok, I dont know about poetic devices etc so cant discuss them - but I will give my take on the poem's meaning.

I think it is referring to people who are insecure/not confident and despite what they want being right in front of them are unwilling/able to make an attempt to claim it. Similar in some respects to the song Fluorescent Lights by The Webb Brothers.


I'd ask her to dance but I cant even stand
As good as my girl if I'll just take her hand
She's been on the scene and she's probably clean
And I wanna take her home

It's 3 in the morning she's lovely
But ugly to me
In flurorescent lights we'd be sickening to see
Nights are routine here in purgatory
Painless for you, thats perfect for me

[Janine]

I have to think about this, but I know this poem well. I just have to get my thoughts together; I am pressed for time right now. I know a great deal about Lawrence, his life and his attitudes on life and sex, from my reading, so I think I can add something worthwhile to this discussion. For now I can but say that Lawrence believed in the natural world and it's importance. I don't know if he was directly making a reference to humans in this poem, but he was keenly observing the natural animal kingdom (of which humans are a part, of course) and the natural order of things, as opposed to the intellectual notion we project on life. I can hopefully explain this better when I have more time. I like the poem very much. He also wrote a tortoise poem you might want to check out Ktd 222. I think there was a prior discussion on this site about it, but I don't know the exact thread. Lawrence also believed in monogomous love and relationships, so I think this poem somehow reflects that notion. While reading it I did think in human terms, as well. I am hoping that Virgil will comment, also. I will let him know of this thread.

[Virgil]

Oh, this is a wonderful poem. But I will hold off commenting. I do know Lawrence well, so I would like others to join in. Come on and let's talk about this. :)

[Janine]

Hi Virgil :wave: Glad you found this thread. Yes, this poem is one of his best. Why won't you comment yet? I was waiting for your keen ideas and comments.
Did you start a thread for the short story/stories? Don't want to forget what I read. Read "Things" two nights ago. What did you think? J

[Virgil]

Hi Virgil :wave: Glad you found this thread. Yes, this poem is one of his best. Why won't you comment yet? I was waiting for your keen ideas and comments.

Well, I wanted people to give ideas before I step into the water. OK, here's something as a start. Notice how Lawrence uses long vowels and an odd line length to project the slow ponderous walking of the elephant:

The elephant, the huge old beast,
is slow to mate;
he finds a female, they show no haste
they wait

for the sympathy in their vast shy hearts
slowly, slowly to rouse
as they loiter along the river-beds
and drink and browse



Did you start a thread for the short story/stories? Don't want to forget what I read. Read "Things" two nights ago. What did you think? J
Yes, I've read it twice. I don't have time to start a thread right now, but perhaps later tonight or tomorrow night, if that is alright with you. I do want to discuss that with you. I liked the story.

[Janine]

Hi Kilted, I don't think I agree with you at all about insecurity. If you take the stanza:

Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast.

This does not reflect to me insecurity at all, but rather a willingness to wait for "the full repast". Patient the elephant is and for being so he enjoys the full sensuality of the consumation of their longing and desire. "wisest of beasts" would not indicate insecurity, as your lyrics seem to express. The elephant is not inept in love-making but in Lawrence's view a master of it. He lets the desire grow slowly before acting. I find the poem very beautiful in it's naturalism.
I would be interested in knowing others views on the line "loneliest of feasts" within this same stanza.

[Janine]

Virgil, we must have been writing the post the same time. I am glad you brought up the form of the poem. Yes, good observation. How in tune with nature and it's rhythms was Lawrence! Amazing the spacing and so graphic and artistic to portray the slow persistent pace of the elephant.

Glad you liked the short story. Anytime that is convenient for you is fine.

[kilted exile]

Hi Kilted, I don't think I agree with you at all about insecurity. If you take the stanza:

Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast.

This does not reflect to me insecurity at all, but rather a willingness to wait for "the full repast". Patient the elephant is and for being so he enjoys the full sensuality of the consumation of their longing and desire. "wisest of beasts" would not indicate insecurity, as your lyrics seem to express. The elephant is not inept in love-making but in Lawrence's view a master of it. He lets the desire grow slowly before acting. I find the poem very beautiful in it's naturalism.
I would be interested in knowing others views on the line "loneliest of feasts" within this same stanza.

If this stanza was taken alone I may be enclined to agree with you, but taken in contaxt with the rest of the poem especially # 1,2,3 & 6 I think it adds to the idea that the elephant waits too long and then the passion and desire is gone and they mate out of loneliness and in the end fear of being alone instead of for love/passion

Regarding "loneliness of feasts": I see it as lonely as there is no passion/fire (possibly even love?) there

[ktd222]

Well, I wanted people to give ideas before I step into the water. OK, here's something as a start. Notice how Lawrence uses long vowels and an odd line length to project the slow ponderous walking of the elephant:

Virgil? Since the poem is about waiting and showing patience before mating, I saw the long vowel sounds, and uneven line lengths, seemingly stetching out, then halted in the next line, to show the elephant's patience for the gradual build up of desire to mate.

[Janine]

Kilted, who is to say what is too long to wait? Lawrence is merely observing the natural order of things in the animal kingdom, which can be carried over to man. Rashness could only bring disappointment in not waiting for the right moment and the building up of the desire, as he describes it here in his poem....thus "the full repast".
Knowing Lawrence's background your last line would not make sense to his philosophy.
You stated -

then the passion and desire is gone and they mate out of loneliness and in the end fear of being alone instead of for love/passion"
This absolutely does not fit Lawrence and his idea of what true passion is. In my mind the poem is saying the elephants pair off and wait for the right moment of desire. They show great patience and therefore partake of the passion fully and there coupling is a full consumation.

[Virgil]

Virgil? Since the poem is about waiting and showing patience before mating, I saw the long vowel sounds, and uneven line lengths, seemingly stetching out, then halted in the next line, to show the elephant's patience for the gradual build up of desire to mate.

Yes, good point. Perhaps both. I think elephants are patient looking animals, while being ponderous. I agree with Janine; I do think that Lawrence is after a sense of naturalism. What we have is a very naturalistic event described within the context of Lawrence's values (more on that later). I know today we have sex all over, but this (writing a poem on animals having sex) was uncommon in Lawrence's day. Remember they didn't have Wild Kingdom broadcast on TV showing all sorts of creatures mating. I imagine there is a certain shock factor for Lawrence's audience.

[ktd222]

Regarding "loneliness of feasts": I see it as lonely as there is no passion/fire (possibly even love?) there

Yes, that’s right. But maybe for these elephants the idea of mating is not about desire, or love, for this act of mating can be perceived as one in which is used to fulfill individual “needs.” So knowing this, the elephants seem to be allowing their hearts to both become “full of desire,” and by the same processes of “waiting for their hearts to grow full of desire,” that part of “desire,” maybe the “fire” in the alternate line, is extinguished, so that that “loneliest of feast” can be experienced in another way.

Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast.

And I find it strange that mating is being compared to a feasts to be consumed, or taken as food(repast). And I find it even stranger that I can’t identify if these beasts are the ones consuming this feasts, or the feasts is consuming them. Do any of you get that sense? In a way the act of waiting till one’s heart “grows full of desire” flips the act of mating so the consumers of this feasts becomes consumed by the feasts.

Ok, that’s my take on this stanza 6, any other opinions or ideas?

[ktd222]

I agree with Janine; I do think that Lawrence is after a sense of naturalism.

I do agree as well.

[Virgil]

Let me provide a little background on Lawrence's ideas. In a letter to Bertrand Russell, the philosopher, Lawrence put forth the central thesis of his ideas. I think if you understand this paragragh, you understand 50% of D.H. Lawrence. Please excuse any typos, I had to type this out myself.


From 8 December 1915 letter to Bertrand Russell,
page 470 of The Letters of D.H. Lawrence: June 1913-October 1916.

I have been reading Frazer’s Golden Bough and Totemism and Exogamy. Now I am convinced of what I believed when I was about twenty—that there is another seat of consciousness than the brain and nerve system: there is a blood-consciousness which exists in us independently of the ordinary mental consciousness, which depends on the eye as its source or connector. There is the blood-consciousness, with the sexual connection, holding the same relation as the eye, in seeing, holds to the mental consciousness. One lives, knows, and has one’s being in the blood, without any reference to nerves and brain. This is one half of life, belonging to the darkness. And the tragedy of this our life, and of your life, is that the mental and nerve consciousness exerts a tyranny over the blood-consciousness, and that your will has gone completely over to the mental consciousness, and is engaged in the destruction of your blood-being or blood-consciousness, the final liberating of the one, which is only death in result. Plato was the same. Now it is necessary for us to realise that there is this other great half of our life active in the darkness, the blood-relationship: that when I see, there is a connection between my mental-consciousness and an outside body, forming a precept; but at the same time, there is a transmission through the darkness which is never absent from the light, into my blood-consciousness: but in seeing, the blood-percept is not strong. On the other hand, when I take a woman, then the blood-percept is supreme, my blood-knowing is overwhelming. There is a transmission, I don’t know of what, between her blood and mine, in the act of connection. So that afterwards, even if she goes away, the blood-consciousness persists between us, when the mental consciousness is suspended; and I am formed then by my blood-consciousness, not by my mind or nerves at all.

Let me also say that Russell felt completely insulted by this letter and pretty much ended his friendship with Lawrence.

Now how do you read this poem, given this context?

[kilted exile]

Ok I realise I am in the minority in my opinion here (something I am well used to). I also understand that Lawrence may not approve of my interpretation of his poem, however the language usage I think is there to back it up.


"he finds a female, they show no haste
they wait"

This reads to me that the male knows he wants the female now, but he does not make a move.


"for the sympathy in their vast shy hearts
slowly, slowly to rouse
as they loiter along the river-beds
and drink and browse"

This stanza is where I get the majority of my interpretation, they do not wait because they are unsure, they wait because they are shy and insecure and so instead of "making a move" continue drinking from the river bank with the occassional shy glance over to what they want but will make no attempt to get. (this is the part which I think is similar to the lyrics I posted earlier.


and dash in panic through the brake
of forest with the herd,
and sleep in massive silence, and wake
together, without a word.

Here as the elephant gets older, he becomes concerned about not having a mate and panics into taking anyone who will accept him at this stage, the sleep in silence continues the idea that there is no passion. And they wake without a word, words are not needed there is no love to express and no true connection other than loneliness.


and the great beasts mate in secret at last,
hiding their fire

There is no show of affection, the fire they are hiding here is their supreme disappointment at the turn of events.


Now:



Kilted, who is to say what is too long to wait? Lawrence is merely observing the natural order of things in the animal kingdom, which can be carried over to man. Rashness could only bring disappointment in not waiting for the right moment and the building up of the desire, as he describes it here in his poem....thus "the full repast".

I do not read "the full repast" here as a good thing: yes the elephant does get all of the loneliest of feasts, but since when has loneliness been a thing to savour.


Knowing Lawrence's background your last line would not make sense to his philosophy.

Probably not no, as I say Lawrence would likely disapprove of my interpretation. It may not have been how he would have liked it to be read, however the connotations are there to allow it to be read as such (yes, I do realise this in some ways goes against my latest post in the "How to analyse poetry thread" further clarification will come later)


And I find it strange that mating is being compared to a feasts to be consumed, or taken as food(repast). And I find it even stranger that I can’t identify if these beasts are the ones consuming this feasts, or the feasts is consuming them. Do any of you get that sense? In a way the act of waiting till one’s heart “grows full of desire” flips the act of mating so the consumers of this feasts becomes consumed by the feasts.

I read it as more that they are consumed by the idea of the feast rather than the feast itself.

[ktd222]

Let me also say that Russell felt completely insulted by this letter and pretty much ended his friendship with Lawrence.

Now how do you read this poem, given this context?

Thanks for the letter Virgil.:) What do you think about the lines in stanza 6? I feel I was building up my analysis to overlap with what was said in the letter.

[ktd222]

This is more things I observed:


"he finds a female, they show no haste
they wait"
"for the sympathy in their vast shy hearts
slowly, slowly to rouse
as they loiter along the river-beds
and drink and browse"

To me this reads “he finds a female,” they(both he and she) show no haste they(both he and she) wait.” Both male and female are consciously showing haste to mate. The reason is given in the next stanza: “For the sympathy in their vast shy hearts.” There is this relationship developing in which the self, and that something inside the self(vast shy heart) need be in “sympathy” with each other before mating can fully be experienced. The fact that the word “shy” is there contrast well against the self, which is ready to mate, but is hesitating in wait for the “heart” to be ready as well.

and dash in panic through the brake
of forest with the herd,
and sleep in massive silence, and wake
together, without a word.

A mate is found right away in the first stanza. But the mating doesn’t commence until stanza 4. This type of patience shown by the elephants for the sympathy of their hearts really comes through this way. The fact that all the activities carried seems to be a way of consciously delaying the mating until their hearts are also in line, desire wise, to mate. And the fact that their activities during this period of waiting are described without “a spoken word” really gives me a sense that there is a mutual understanding between the mates, without verbal communication, what must happen, before they can mate. Maybe that is the privileged information these “wisest” of beasts retain.

[Janine]

To everyone in discussion, I would be interested to know the actual habits of the elephant kingdom and if, in fact, if they do wait to mate in patience, as is described in L's poem.

Thank you, Virgil, for posting the Lawrence theology.
For everyone's information, many people did not agree with Lawrence and cut him off as a friend, so Russel was no exception. Other friends, such as Audox Huxley and his wife remained true and faithful to his last days, but he lost many others along the way. He could be very opinionated at times, and stubborn about his theories or beliefs. In essense, Lawrence felt the conscious mind impended the blood consciousness (as he called it). In my mind he is pointing out this animal instinct in all of us. The whole theory is difficult to understand with the changes of attitudes in our modern world, or since L wrote this. Also, now we have more liberal views and more scientific information to go on. Virgil pointed part of this out. L had to deal a lot with censorship, as did Joyce. It was a much different time. But I still think this poem is a good one and is timeless in it's naturalistic observation.

To Kilted, I say - that is fine to have another opinion and interpretation of the poem if that is how you perceive it. Personally, I just do not think that is how L would have meant the poem to be perceived. But you are certainly entitled to your own opinion and interpretation. Anyway, some disagreement always makes for a better discussion.

From my biography reading I have heard that there are many theories that L feared the dominence of women. Perhaps Virgil can expound on this. Perhaps this "loneliest of feasts" springs from his inner fear. As many know, he had a unusually close relationship with his late mother and she was very prominient in his life - actually domineering at times. It helps to know more about Lawrence's background/biography in interpretting his intentions in this particular poem. I feel he is merely observing the natural order of things, events in the animal kingdom, which would represent the "blood consciousness" he refers to.

By the thought of loneliness, actually "loneliest" in the text, he probably meant the comsumation of the act of sex would be an all devouring act, that would result in a loneliness. Lawrence felt that going through the depths of desire, he was purging out the old consciousness and creating a new one - thus there was a transfiguration into the "blood consciousness". Virgil understands this and can better relay this idea of "Transfiguration", since he wrote his thesis on it. I am struggling with this and not sure my explanation is accurate enough. I know what I read, but find it is hard to put it down on paper. Lawrence can be very complicated and at times I think he does contradict himself, in his writings. So the "loneliness of feasts" is partly an enigma to me, as well.

Also, I do not know the actual habits of elephants and will try looking them up on Wikipedia. Perhaps after the act of mating, the male and female then part. In this way loneliness would be their final state.

[ktd222]

I am struggling with this and not sure my explanation is accurate enough. I know what I read, but find it is hard to put it down on paper. Lawrence can be very complicated and at times I think he does contradict himself, in his writings. So the "loneliness of feasts" is partly an enigma to me, as well.

Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest

To me this stanza connotates mating to something that is to be consumed, literally. That is what the lines say. It also connotates mating to a feasts, which represents ample or abundance, yet is the "loneliest" to its consumer. It also states that these "wisest of beasts" know how to approach such a "loneliest of feasts." Being that the descriptions of elephant activity up through stanza 6 had them doing everything together, it's possible the the elephants have found a way to joinly experience an activity that is previously suggested as a lonely experience. And maybe that by the elephants not consuming, but allowing the desire for mating to become full in there hearts, and consume them in this experience - that that will be the way to gain a fuller experience(group experience) from an otherwise stated "loneliest of feast."

so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast

The elephants are not acting on but are in wait for this feasts.

[Virgil]

While I don't completely I agree with Kilt, there are parts of his reading which make a lot of sense.


"he finds a female, they show no haste
they wait"
This reads to me that the male knows he wants the female now, but he does not make a move.



"for the sympathy in their vast shy hearts
slowly, slowly to rouse
as they loiter along the river-beds
and drink and browse"
This stanza is where I get the majority of my interpretation, they do not wait because they are unsure, they wait because they are shy and insecure and so instead of "making a move" continue drinking from the river bank with the occassional shy glance over to what they want but will make no attempt to get. (this is the part which I think is similar to the lyrics I posted earlier.
It is interesting as to why they wait. Does blood-consciouness not grab a hold of them? Are they locked in mental consciousness? I can see how Kilt is attributing a negative connotation here.


"and dash in panic through the brake
of forest with the herd,
and sleep in massive silence, and wake
together, without a word. "
Here as the elephant gets older, he becomes concerned about not having a mate and panics into taking anyone who will accept him at this stage, the sleep in silence continues the idea that there is no passion. And they wake without a word, words are not needed there is no love to express and no true connection other than loneliness.
I don't know about older (I take the events to be relatively near each other, like hours), but it does seem like the elephant has overcome the mental consciousness (words being a sign for mental activity) and now is in a state of blood consciousness.


There is no show of affection, the fire they are hiding here is their supreme disappointment at the turn of events.
I'm not sure of disappointment. I don't get disappointement from the line. Lawrence is really quite prude, and I believe he feels it is natural to keep their "fire" in private.


so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast.

I read it as more that they are consumed by the idea of the feast rather than the feast itself
I'm not sure I know how to read those lines either. I have to think them over.

But the last stanza is the connection with the feamle into blood consciousness:

their massive blood
moves as the moon-tides, near, more near
till they touch in flood.

[Virgil]

As to "loneliest"let's consider this passage (chapter 3) from Lawrence's novel The Rainbow:


His blood beat up in waves of desire. He wanted to come to her, to meet her. She was there, if he could reach her. The reality of her who was just beyond him absorbed him. Blind and destroyed, he pressed forward, nearer, nearer, to receive the consummation of himself, he received within the darkness which should swallow him and yield him up to himself. If he could come really within the blazing kernel of darkness, if really he could be destroyed, burnt away till he lit with her in one consummation, that were supreme, supreme.

Their coming together now, after two years of married life, was much more wonderful to them than it had been before. It was the entry into another circle of existence, it was the baptism to another life, it was the complete confirmation. Their feet trod strange ground of knowledge, their footsteps were lit–up with discovery. Wherever they walked, it was well, the world re–echoed round them in discovery. They went gladly and forgetful. Everything was lost, and everything was found. The new world was discovered, it remained only to be explored.

They had passed through the doorway into the further space, where movement was so big, that it contained bonds and constraints and labours, and still was complete liberty. She was the doorway to him, he to her. At last they had thrown open the doors, each to the other, and had stood in the doorways facing each other, whilst the light flooded out from behind on to each of their faces, it was the transfiguration, glorification, the admission.

And always the light of the transfiguration burned on in their hearts. He went his way, as before, she went her way, to the rest of the world there seemed no change. But to the two of them, there was the perpetual wonder of the transfiguration.
A transfiguration is a religious experience that transforms one. One is no longer the same. Sexual experience is a transfiguration for Lawrence, the touching, the coming together. That's what happens at the end of the poem. But before that, the male and female are separate, individuals, isolated, lonely creatures.

[Janine]

Kilt, I know I should not be going backwards, but I have been wondering about the poem you originally posted and what you saw as similar to the L poem. Here are the lyrics/poem:


I'd ask her to dance but I cant even stand
As good as my girl if I'll just take her hand
She's been on the scene and she's probably clean
And I wanna take her home

It's 3 in the morning she's lovely
But ugly to me
In flurorescent lights we'd be sickening to see
Nights are routine here in purgatory
Painless for you, thats perfect for me

You have mentioned this poem a couple of times. I don't see the relationship at all with the elephant poem of Lawrence's and this poem.

The first line: "...but I cant even stand"
These lyrics seem to me to be about someone who is drugged, drinking or impaired in someway, or if that is not correct, why can't he stand? Now the other 3 lines indicate he would like to take her home, but he hesitates and doesn't.

This line(second stanza):
"It's 3 in the morning she's lovely
But ugly to me"
seems to be totally condradictory. How can she be lovely, but ugly at the same time?

"Nights are routine here in purgatory"
This line seems really negative and sad and hopeless as well.

"Painless for you, thats perfect for me"
I don't understand this last line at all or what it could possibly have to do with the elephant poem. Can you explain your thinking in linking the two poems?


While I don't completely I agree with Kilt, there are parts of his reading which make a lot of sense.

It is interesting as to why they wait. Does blood-consciouness not grab a hold of them? Are they locked in mental consciousness? I can see how Kilt is attributing a negative connotation here.

I still don’t see how the natural world can have a negative connotation, especially when L states that the elephant is a wise animal. I did try to find out some information on the mating habits of elephants and have not come up with anything concrete yet. It seems you have to see a Animal Kingdom DVD to find out. Wikepedia mentions birth, but nothing much about how they go about mating. Seems though that they do break away from the herd for a time. They also seem pretty selective and patient in the matter.


I don't know about older (I take the events to be relatively near each other, like hours), but it does seem like the elephant has overcome the mental consciousness (words being a sign for mental activity) and now is in a state of blood consciousness.

I can’t really see how elephants would ever be in the mental consciousness, I usually see the animal kingdom ruled by instinct and the blood consciousness. Perhaps this is what separates man from beast?.... but of course I have never been a beast, so I don’t know first hand.


I'm not sure of disappointment. I don't get disappointement from the line. Lawrence is really quite prude, and I believe he feels it is natural to keep their "fire" in private.

I agree with this. I did not feel the least disappointment at this part of the poem. Yes, true enough about Lawrence being a prude in someways and private. He would not like exhibitionism. Frieda once said “Lawrence is a strange bird.” His poetry can be downright lustful at times, but his private life was just that – private.


But the last stanza is the connection with the female into blood consciousness:

Definitely – but is it not also the male into the blood consciousness? Virgil, can you explain why you said only female?

Virgil, thanks for posting the excerpt from “The Rainbow”. I just read this recently. Was this in your thesis? I don’t remember. Perhaps this passage was pointed out in one of my biographies I read a couple months ago. It is an excellent example of L’s thinking on blood consciousness and tranfiguration. I was also thinking of “Women in Love” and the scene when Birkin breaks away from society’s bonds and goes into the cornfield – a very sensual scene and one that always left an impression on me....but perhaps that was not a full transfiguration....just the beginning of the consciousness.

[ktd222]

A transfiguration is a religious experience that transforms one. One is no longer the same. Sexual experience is a transfiguration for Lawrence, the touching, the coming together. That's what happens at the end of the poem. But before that, the male and female are separate, individuals, isolated, lonely creatures.

The ending brings about a sense of connection with a part of us to nature, a part that progresses naturally to its fullness in how it’s expressed. The comparison of their blood to the tides of an ocean brings about that connection of our “blood conscious” to nature.
And the affect of the moon on the tidal waves brings about an understanding by the elephants that the “blood conscious” – the part responsible for a “full” sexual experience, is intertwined with nature. The two elephants, described here, “do not snatch or tear,” but it’s their “massive blood” that lifts, and moves, and “touches” during mating. Just as the cycle of the moon affects the ocean waves, similarly that same moon is described as affecting our sexual experience.

[Janine]

I like what you have written Ktd222; It is very well articulated and I feel the same way about the ending of the poem. I especially like the references to the tides and the moon cycles. It is so beautiful.


Virgil started a new thread on Lawrence short stories. I hope you can join it. It should make for interesting discussion and we can all learn much from each other in the process.

[Virgil]

I still don’t see how the natural world can have a negative connotation, especially when L states that the elephant is a wise animal. I did try to find out some information on the mating habits of elephants and have not come up with anything concrete yet. It seems you have to see a Animal Kingdom DVD to find out. Wikepedia mentions birth, but nothing much about how they go about mating. Seems though that they do break away from the herd for a time. They also seem pretty selective and patient in the matter.

My first reaction Janine was as yours, the elephants are ponderous and slow by nature. But Kilt made me think, why does Larence have them hesitate and wait? Why not go straight to what the blood consciousness wants? Well, first, aestheitically, it does add tension to the posm. The hesitation is like an unresolved melody that you wait for to resolve. But thematically too, they are in what Lawrence might consider unbalanced toward mental consciousness. "Wisest of beasts" and "browse" which suggests eye connection (read again the letter to Russell) are signs of mental consciousness I think. Lawrence picks an animal who's intelligence is noteworthy. I wonder how this would compare with Lawrence's famous Tortoise poems.

[Virgil]

The ending brings about a sense of connection with a part of us to nature, a part that progresses naturally to its fullness in how it’s expressed. The comparison of their blood to the tides of an ocean brings about that connection of our “blood conscious” to nature.
And the affect of the moon on the tidal waves brings about an understanding by the elephants that the “blood conscious” – the part responsible for a “full” sexual experience, is intertwined with nature. The two elephants, described here, “do not snatch or tear,” but it’s their “massive blood” that lifts, and moves, and “touches” during mating. Just as the cycle of the moon affects the ocean waves, similarly that same moon is described as affecting our sexual experience.

I think you nailed that last stanza down perfectly ktd. It is a wonderful last stanza.

[kilted exile]

While I don't completely I agree with Kilt, there are parts of his reading which make a lot of sense.

Yay :lol:


I don't know about older (I take the events to be relatively near each other, like hours), but it does seem like the elephant has overcome the mental consciousness (words being a sign for mental activity) and now is in a state of blood consciousness.

This could well be where the difference in interpreation comes from, I see a long period of time months, if not years, rather than hours.


I'm not sure of disappointment. I don't get disappointement from the line. Lawrence is really quite prude, and I believe he feels it is natural to keep their "fire" in private.

I think this is another example that suggests they are still in the "mental" as opposed to "blood consciousness" I know when I am in a new relationship I find it near impossible to keep my hands off the object of my affections, even if it is just holding her hand walking along the street. This to me also suggests the lack of passion/love


I'm not sure I know how to read those lines either. I have to think them over.

But the last stanza is the connection with the feamle into blood consciousness:

I have still to properly formulate my opinion of the final stanza, once I get it thought through properly I will post my ideas on that section.


Kilt, I know I should not be going backwards, but I have been wondering about the poem you originally posted and what you saw as similar to the L poem.

You have mentioned this poem a couple of times. I don't see the relationship at all with the elephant poem of Lawrence's and this poem.

May not have made myself clear it is a song by a group called the Webb Brothers. I did not post the complete lyrics (unable to find online & too lazy to transcribe from the CD)


The first line: "...but I cant even stand"
These lyrics seem to me to be about someone who is drugged, drinking or impaired in someway, or if that is not correct, why can't he stand? Now the other 3 lines indicate he would like to take her home, but he hesitates and doesn't.

Yeah, its a bar he's drunk, drugged "but I cant even stand" also relates to the other 3 lines in that he is making excuses for not having the guts to go and talk to her.


This line(second stanza):
"It's 3 in the morning she's lovely
But ugly to me"
seems to be totally condradictory. How can she be lovely, but ugly at the same time?

More of the excuses


"Nights are routine here in purgatory"
This line seems really negative and sad and hopeless as well.

"Painless for you, thats perfect for me"
I don't understand this last line at all or what it could possibly have to do with the elephant poem. Can you explain your thinking in linking the two poems?

Yeah, they are a fairly depressing band, probably best described as "bleak rock".
The line "Nights are routine here in purgatory" is possibly one of my favourites lines in any poem or song. The imagery is brilliant, and perfectly describes the club scene and going out every Friday/Saturday night to the club(purgatory) and the way everything turns into a routine of drink, drugs, occassional sex and hoping to meet the "one" (heaven)

"Painless for you, thats perfect for me" is the patron thinking about this wonderful, or at least could be, girl but is scared of getting too involved or turned down. So he convinces himself that it would cause her less pain if he didnt get involved.

With regards to linking the poem to this song, I suppose it really only makes sense if you read the poem from my viewpoint about insecurity and waiting too long that you have to settle.

Apologies for going off on a tangent (but folk round here should be used to that by now)


I still don’t see how the natural world can have a negative connotation, especially when L states that the elephant is a wise animal. I did try to find out some information on the mating habits of elephants and have not come up with anything concrete yet. It seems you have to see a Animal Kingdom DVD to find out. Wikepedia mentions birth, but nothing much about how they go about mating. Seems though that they do break away from the herd for a time. They also seem pretty selective and patient in the matter.

I do not know a great deal about the mating habits of elephants, I believe I read/was told at one point that they mate for life - but the reliability of that information I am unsure of (long time ago). I did see a report fairly recently on the BBC that elephants are one of the few animals with a distinct realisation of self (of course this is a recent study and not available to Lawrence as he was writing this


I can’t really see how elephants would ever be in the mental consciousness, I usually see the animal kingdom ruled by instinct and the blood consciousness. Perhaps this is what separates man from beast?.... but of course I have never been a beast, so I don’t know first hand.

I would agree that as an animal they would generally be assumed to be in the "blood consciousness" consistently, however there are a number of allusions to them being in the "mental consciousness" as have been highlighted previously

[ktd222]

I think you nailed that last stanza down perfectly ktd. It is a wonderful last stanza.

Thanks Virgil. It's good that we agree - once in a while.;)


I like what you have written Ktd222; It is very well articulated and I feel the same way about the ending of the poem. I especially like the references to the tides and the moon cycles. It is so beautiful.

Virgil started a new thread on Lawrence short stories. I hope you can join it. It should make for interesting discussion and we can all learn much from each other in the process.

Thanks Janine. I felt overpowered and drowned in a flood of beauty by the end of that last stanza.:)
I'll try and make some time in the next couple days. I've been in the mood to write recently, and haven't read much of anything. But I will read this Lawrence story.:)

[Janine]

Thanks Virgil. It's good that we agree - once in a while.;)



Thanks Janine. I felt overpowered and drowned in a flood of beauty by the end of that last stanza.:)
I'll try and make some time in the next couple days. I've been in the mood to write recently, and haven't read much of anything. But I will read this Lawrence story.:)

Take your time, ktd222. I am not feeling really well today so things are slow for me, too. Hope you write some really great stuff. I will be anxious to read it. Tell us where you post it, ok? When the mood hits and you feel creative - great - that is when you have to stop all other things and dig in and write your heart out...."cease the moment"....I forget the latin for it.

Yes, many times Lawrence's work has that effect on me....
"felt overpowered and drowned in a flood of beauty"....
what a perfect way of putting that. Lawrence's novels can do that to you, also. I read a passage in his first novel, "The White Peacock" about tiny eggs being found in a hoof impression in the mud, in a little nest in the field. It was particularly poignant and later when L finds the eggs have hatched he writes beautifully about these tiny helpless baby birds huddling together for warmth and how he feels at the moment. I will have to find the passage and write it to you. You will love the imagery and the passage. The wonder of it is that it really did happen and he experienced this moment; it was documented later by one of his friends.

[Schecter85]

Yes, that’s right. But maybe for these elephants the idea of mating is not about desire, or love, for this act of mating can be perceived as one in which is used to fulfill individual “needs.” So knowing this, the elephants seem to be allowing their hearts to both become “full of desire,” and by the same processes of “waiting for their hearts to grow full of desire,” that part of “desire,” maybe the “fire” in the alternate line, is extinguished, so that that “loneliest of feast” can be experienced in another way.

Oldest they are and the wisest of beasts
so they know at last
how to wait for the loneliest of feasts
for the full repast.

And I find it strange that mating is being compared to a feasts to be consumed, or taken as food(repast). And I find it even stranger that I can’t identify if these beasts are the ones consuming this feasts, or the feasts is consuming them. Do any of you get that sense? In a way the act of waiting till one’s heart “grows full of desire” flips the act of mating so the consumers of this feasts becomes consumed by the feasts.

Ok, that’s my take on this stanza 6, any other opinions or ideas?


Hey, I have to do a reflection on this for my senior high school class and I just thought I'd add in.

By using the word 'feast', I think he is suggesting that mating, is something to be savored, like we should savor our food(which many of us don't because of the abundance). By using this interpretation, you can then say he is suggesting our(humans) inability to savor this love that we may have with another, while elephants to savor it because they wait their entire lives for it.

..and i know I'm a bit late.

[Schecter85]

... and can somebody explain the last stanza line for line please..

its got me completely lost

[Virgil]

... and can somebody explain the last stanza line for line please..

its got me completely lost


They do not snatch, they do not tear;
their massive blood
moves as the moon-tides, near, more near
till they touch in flood.
Lawrence had this theory of blood consciousness, that the blood contained a different knowledge than the mind, a higher knowledge. This lalst stanza is an oblique suggestion to sexual intimacy, the contact of blood consciousness. I hope that helps.

[Schecter85]

Lawrence had this theory of blood consciousness, that the blood contained a different knowledge than the mind, a higher knowledge. This lalst stanza is an oblique suggestion to sexual intimacy, the contact of blood consciousness. I hope that helps.


and what of the word flood

[Virgil]

and what of the word flood

Is this for school? What does flood mean? He's referring to a rush of blood.