WITHIN THE OUTLINE OF FAITH (Just thinking outloud)

[WriterAtTheSea]

Ahhh, the complications of our lives… We all have them; some seemingly more complicated than the next, and it is so easy to let our desires pull us in a million directions. Even ambition can be overly idolized in our search for “infinite happiness” or ”joy.” I truly am thankful for my faith, because it is the one thing that has really grounded me and I believe it has kept me from making continual decisions that might add to polluting my life with more unwanted sorrows. Within the framework of life’s uncertainties (which are many), there is the ability to find an infinitely greater joy within the outline of faith. It is hard for us to comprehend that at times… Because I believe human nature wants to control and often we look to a variance of things that truthfully only add to the pollution of our lives. So often, we miss an unfathomable joy because we are consumed by the business of the hour and our sense of business and control keep us ignorant. CS Lewis speaks so wisely about infinite joy. “Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition, when infinite joy is offered to us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in the slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”

Do we sell out for what we “think” is pleasure? I often think so. Are we willing to take down the ideological walls that might possibly block us from things more eternal, more lasting?

I recently read the following written anonymously. “As a third-century man was anticipating death, he penned these last words to a friend: "It's a bad world, an incredibly bad world. But I have discovered in the midst of it a quiet and holy people who have learned a great secret. They have found a joy which is a thousand times better than any pleasure of our sinful life. They are despised and persecuted, but they care not. They are masters of their souls. They have overcome the world. These people are Christians--and I am one of them.”

What does it really mean to be “one of them?” It is religion? I think not. Is it a bunch of laws that dictate? I believe not. Is it a big cathedral, or a television show? Not hardly. Is it finding infinite joy in a true relationship with a living and engaging God? I believe so. With all of my heart, I have experienced such...over and over again. From every sunrise to sunset, cloud formation to pondering the constellations. In every aspect of incredible scenery, God has left his imprint and a message of his infinite nature...

:idea:

[cuppajoe_9]

Though I would not presume to attack such a well worded and well thought out defense of theistic belief, I feel I have to submit that such joy of understanding is not impossible outside the outline of faith.

[WriterAtTheSea]

I do thank you for that Cuppajoe, and I do agree with you, that understanding comes to many, at various times in life and from a multitude of sources. I will add this however, for the theist, part of the process of enlightenment and growth comes out of not just faith, but time well spent with an inexaustiblly giving God. Hence, while anyone can gain understanding, there is the question of "type" that arises. Is the understanding only based on the carnal man, or indeed does it move into the divine?

Thank you for your comment. I look forward to more? :)

[cuppajoe_9]

I do thank you for that Cuppajoe, and I do agree with you, that understanding comes to many, at various times in life and from a multitude of sources. I will add this however, for the theist, part of the process of enlightenment and growth comes out of not just faith, but time well spent with an inexaustiblly giving God. Hence, while anyone can gain understanding, there is the question of "type" that arises. Is the understanding only based on the carnal man, or indeed does it move into the divine?

Thank you for your comment. I look forward to more? :)My dictionary gives the definition of carnal as 'relating to physical, esp. sexual needs and activities', which is not quite what I was getting at. However, it seems to me that it would be hard to solicit knowledge directly from the divine, as the divine is clearly not in the habit of conversing with mortals over the phone. It seems more likely that moving towards enlightenment is a process that would entail discovering the nature of the divine and, indeed, if there is such a thing.

[Orionsbelt]

Not enough time to formalize these ideas in a more coherent way … so here ya go

These are some interesting perspectives that fit into my own experience a bit. I understand that some folks find comfort and a kind of joy within the boundaries of a traditional faith envelope. I think I have seen this personally. I would be wrong to say that this framework has not worked for some folks. However, I have seen what I think is joyful living outside of any such structure. I am finding some things I think are truer than what I have been taught traditionally. I am finding the traditional rejection of physical pleasures (over-emphasis on the spiritual) just as silly as an over-emphasis on it. I am after all the creature that I am. I find it joyful to accept these things and enjoy them. There is a guiding precept. That is one of compassion for me and others. Avoiding "The high price for hard liv'n" as the song says. However, I don't think you can't get there in either case by staying in the box. I have come to believe that we fell into paradise not out. I am uncomfortable with people who I refer to as "living in death". In other words all the good stuff happens after you die. Hell, hurry up and die. I'll catch up later .... better yet I'll stay here. Take a careful look around you. I think you can live a very full life outside the boundaries of any particular faith and a crappy one within the same boundry. I think it is up to you to search. I feel that we have indeed been handed a wonderful gift but you won't find it with your head buried in a 2000 year old book... of any kind or of any culture. That is not an excuse to go nuts, throw everything out, whatever. But I think that you need to go out and live. That means being stupid, selfish, arrogant... kind, giving, and humble. I think that if you have not given to one side AND the other you are playing in the mud and have missed the cruise. The world is what it is... you get to see it the way you want. ;)


Just some thoughts....I hope I'm not coming over too strong.

[cuppajoe_9]

Don't know how the 'sins of the flesh' issue got tied up in this, but here's my two cents:

It's a fairly rough old world out there and if a person feels the need to, say, indulge in a particular plant that makes him or her laugh for five hours straight, I'm not about to pass judgement.

[cuppajoe_9]

Oh yeah, the 'sins of the flesh' issue was adressed in the original post. Oh well.

[WriterAtTheSea]

Hahaha, Cuppa., you are too funny... Of course, I am not "conversing" with God on a phone line, and of course I mentioned absolutely NOTHING about "conversing" with him. In my original thread I did mention "engaging with God," and there are many different ways to do that. Everytime you read a history book, you are engaging with some facet of the past. I also said, "part of the process of enlightenment and growth comes out of not just faith, but time well spent with an inexaustiblly giving God." That is not referencing a confernce call, cell phone or phone conversation. :)

[WriterAtTheSea]

Thanks for your post Orion. You have some GREAT thoughts here... Namely, I believe every man should seek, search and find the answers for their own life. If a person is given over to faith, and surrenders to that belief system, then it is really the logical thing to seek without the influences of peer pressure, or bias, because when you do that and tap into the inexaustible living God, you will produce fruit in your life that remains, and growth will always be the end result.

[WriterAtTheSea]

...and happy you are enjoying the thread Jamison!
(so what music are you reading Bernard Shaw to?)

[Virgil]

I found this to be a very interesting discussion. Thanks WriterattheSea for bringing it up. And Jamesian, everything is improved with Beethoven's Nineth.:)

[WriterAtTheSea]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... so true, so true Virgil. Happy you enjoyed the thread...

I am in a Puccini mood today however... ;)

[Virgil]

I am actually going to see "Madama Butterfly" Sunday, but I definitely listen to The Ninth everyday.

Perhaps I should start another thread, but let me ask anyway. Which of Beethoven's symphonies do you enjoy? Certainly the ninth and fifth are on everyone's list. But after that I love the third and seventh. Most people chose the sixth after the big two, but I don't care for that one as much as most symphony lovers.