I won't become a real Christian.

[virginiawang]

I went to a Bible discussion today, where a group of people talked about topics related to Bible, and I was shocked to find that some people did commit themselves to God. They could even remember a particular passage in my Bible, which I bought lately. However I only went there to have people to talk to in English. I wonder how they've convinced themselves of God, Jesus, and everything that was realated in Bible, when nobody could have given a piece of evidence to what had happened thousands of years ago. It's really interesting to see how those people put their trust and energy in some sort of myth and take it as a guide to everything they do. As far as I am concerned, I will join some of these discussions gladly, but will not surrender my soul to any invisible power.

[JBI]

I went to a Bible discussion today, where a group of people talked about topics related to Bible, and I was shocked to find that some people did commit themselves to God. They could even remember a particular passage in my Bible, which I bought lately. However I only went there to have people to talk to in English. I wonder how they've convinced themselves of God, Jesus, and everything that was realated in Bible, when nobody could have given a piece of evidence to what had happened thousands of years ago. It's really interesting to see how those people put their trust and energy in some sort of myth and take it as a guide to everything they do. As far as I am concerned, I will join some of these discussions gladly, but will not surrender my soul to any invisible power.

Who knows - I have a friend, for instance, who thinks, when you die, you are given soup by an old woman, and wake up in an alternative universe, only to die there and get another bowl of soup to return. Of course, she couldn't tell me what kind of soup, or how there is any logic in that, but she did tell me she was a rather secular, not so religious practitioner in this belief.

The point is - people like to believe ridiculous things - it's upbringing more than anything. If you are told something by your parents as a kid, and know no other sense of authority, it can be assumed, that unless you rebel later on in life, you will continue to believe in it. On another note, if you later come to it, it could be for many other reasons, the most probable being, a) a sense of desire to be part of a community, b) a fear of death, c) a percieved sense of guilt at not being a good person, or d) you were bored and they knocked on the door, and wouldn't go away (I know a girl, raised by a single mother who was forced to convert to Jehovah's Witness in that fashion) or even e) a cultural hegemony that insists one way of life and belief system is more right, and better than another.

Of course, some people just don't know any better, and take this as the best explanation.

[Wintermute]

a) a sense of desire to be part of a community, b) a fear of death, c) a percieved sense of guilt at not being a good person, or d) you were bored and they knocked on the door, and wouldn't go away

Hi JBI,

I'm going with b. Death is scary.

The promise of eternal bliss is awful tempting--until you really wrap your head around 'eternal'. And unfortunately no one seems to be able to define 'heaven' in specifics. Everyone's ideas are different.

Most apparently take it on faith that they will be happy there. Some folks think you actually meet others you've know from your time on this planet. My grandma imagined green hills and beautiful houses. Being agnostic, I'm doubtful but uncertain.

Blessings,
Doug

[Virgil]

You non believers just don't understand believers. You think it's a calculation. It's not a calculation. It's God entering your heart. You either feel Him or you don't. The calculations are rationalizations by both believers and non believers. If you've never had Him in your heart you don't understand it.

That said, I do believe that God (non denomnational God, or a sort of Gog-head) is probable in a scientific/statistical way. But I'm not getting into that. I've had it arguing that.

[Wintermute]

It's God entering your heart. You either feel Him or you don't.

Hi Virg,

I've tried, I promise you. But as of yet nothing. I do think there is something amazing going on in the universe, but as I've said many times I haven't a clue what it is. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't give a darn if I eat meat on Fridays or have sex with a man.

I don't know what you mean by 'calculated'. If that means asking for specifics before concluding that a particular religion is right for me, then I'm guilty as charged.

Cheers,
Doug

[Virgil]

Hi Virg,

I've tried, I promise you. But as of yet nothing. I do think there is something amazing going on in the universe, but as I've said many times I haven't a clue what it is. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't give a darn if I eat meat on Fridays or have sex with a man.

I don't know what you mean by 'calculated'. If that means asking for specifics before concluding that a particular religion is right for me, then I'm guilty as charged.

Cheers,
Doug

First I understand Wintermute. I spent a lot of my early life as an atheist so I know what you mean.

I look at established religions as paths to God. They are intertwined with culture because that's how man can conceptualize something that is beyond our senses. The culture establishes a sense of sacredness and holiness, whether through a historical bond to a past (as in the Old Testament) or through a mystical figure as in Jesus. There are other ways of how the sense of sacredness leads a conceptualization of a transcendence. In my opinion, all religions are paths toward that transcendence, toward God. If you have a chance, take a course in theology.

What I meant in calculation was this rational working through of whether God exists or not, whether there is an after life or not, whether our fear of death leads us to believe in God, and so on. These are all calculations of some sort. You can't experience the metaphysical that way. All I can tell you is that I experience something and there was a time when I didn't. All I can tell you is that if there is no God then life, including humans, is nothing more than a machine, a mechanical-chemical device. I can tell you that I'm not a mechanical device and no life is such.

I leave you with a Shakespeare quote from Hamlet, Hamlet speaking to Horatio: "There are more things to heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamed of."

[MarkBastable]

I wish you'd stop saying 'I can tell you' in that condescending way.

Also, being an atheist doesn't preclude one from understanding or experiencing the metaphysical. And there are those who have been brought to atheism through the study of theology.

Lastly, why do believers always trot out that line from Hamlet, as if it proved something in their favour? It may apply as tellingly to your philosophy, Virgil, as to anyone else's.

First I understand Wintermute. I spent a lot of my early life as an atheist so I know what you mean.

I look at established religions as paths to God. They are intertwined with culture because that's how man can conceptualize something that is beyond our senses. The culture establishes a sense of sacredness and holiness, whether through a historical bond to a past (as in the Old Testament) or through a mystical figure as in Jesus. There are other ways of how the sense of sacredness leads a conceptualization of a transcendence. In my opinion, all religions are paths toward that transcendence, toward God. If you have a chance, take a course in theology.

What I meant in calculation was this rational working through of whether God exists or not, whether there is an after life or not, whether our fear of death leads us to believe in God, and so on. These are all calculations of some sort. You can't experience the metaphysical that way. All I can tell you is that I experience something and there was a time when I didn't. All I can tell you is that if there is no God then life, including humans, is nothing more than a machine, a mechanical-chemical device. I can tell you that I'm not a mechanical device and no life is such.

I leave you with a Shakespeare quote from Hamlet, Hamlet speaking to Horatio: "There are more things to heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamed of."

[Virgil]

I wasn't being condescending in any way whatsoever. Perhaps it's you that feels insecure.

Not sure what you mean but by definition atheism precludes metaphysics. If I'm wrong please explain it to me.

[MarkBastable]

I wasn't being condescending in any way whatsoever. Perhaps it's you that feels insecure.

Not sure what you mean but by definition atheism precludes metaphysics. If I'm wrong please explain it to me.

metaphysical
1.pertaining to or of the nature of metaphysics.
2. Philosophy. a. concerned with abstract thought or subjects, as existence, causality, or truth.
b. concerned with first principles and ultimate grounds, as being, time, or substance.

3. highly abstract, subtle, or abstruse.

Atheism precludes God. It doesn't preclude anything mentioned in the definition of metaphysics reproduced here.

[The Atheist]

It's really interesting to see how those people put their trust and energy in some sort of myth and take it as a guide to everything they do. As far as I am concerned, I will join some of these discussions gladly, but will not surrender my soul to any invisible power.

You'd probably guess that I agree ith you 100%.

[Whifflingpin]

"As far as I am concerned, I will join some of these discussions gladly, but will not surrender my soul to any invisible power."

Should that not be "will not surrender my soul to any other invisible power" ? A soul is an invisible power.

[Jane_Li]

Hello People..
I see you are discussing something interesting here...
Actually,you can't tell anything about God Or Jesus or anything that you don't believe in..I see you randomly not believing in anything..have you searched for the truth???
Have you read about any evidence whether God exists or not??
I don't believe in something unless I know everything about it...Indeed, I read about alot of beliefs and religions to know the truth and end up to believe in God as something that can't be seen but can be felt..I end up with the belief that Jesus is only a human ..An honest man who led people to God

[Wintermute]

Hi Virgil,

All I can tell you is that I experience something and there was a time when I didn't.

I hate to be calculative, but could you be very specific on this, please. What, exactly, do you experience? Was if physical? Mental? I've not experienced anything that I would define as paranormal or outside of my own brain and senses. I'm 53 years old. I've prayed. I have indeed taken Theology (University of Maryland, 1982). And honestly, I've experienced nothing that would lead me to believe with absolute certainty that a universal creator exists and that it cares about us here on this little chunk of rock in the corner of a relatively normal little galaxy amongst billions of galaxies. Could ego be involved here?

I leave you with a Shakespeare quote from Hamlet, Hamlet speaking to Horatio: "There are more things to heaven and earth, Horatio, than your philosophy ever dreamed of."

Now on this, we can agree 100% 8-). Again, I just don't think it cares if I shave my beard or not.

Blessings,
Doug

[NikolaiI]

I didn't read all the posts after Virgil's, and I am restricting my time on Lit-net so I don't have a lot of time for it right now, but in response to

I've tried, I promise you. But as of yet nothing. I do think there is something amazing going on in the universe, but as I've said many times I haven't a clue what it is. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't give a darn if I eat meat on Fridays or have sex with a man.

I would say, something I've recently felt and wanted to share was the feeling that I am part of the universe. I know this has been covered, but in the sense, directly perceiving that I'm part of some kind of infinite energy. To me that is what God is - the source which all eventually flows to.

I had this feeling and again, I am of the understanding that the first step is to intellectually acknowledge something like this, like I felt, or to feel it perhaps. Then one may choose whatever path to search for this and hopefully realize it. But I guess the first questions I'd ask would be, "what is the Universe," and "what is my relation to it?" Because I know, for sure, absolutely, that I am part of this thing called the universe, and I have an intimate connection to it. That's the source of mysticism, for me. What's the end of mysticism? Enlightenment or some such. For we're in illusion - we are part of the universe, in truth, connected to an infinite energy; yet we feel as we are not. To intellectually understand this is a prelude to ever realizing it.

Can the microcosm ever know, ever feel the macrocosm? That is spirituality.

[JBI]

Hello People..
I see you are discussing something interesting here...
Actually,you can't tell anything about God Or Jesus or anything that you don't believe in..I see you randomly not believing in anything..have you searched for the truth???
Have you read about any evidence whether God exists or not??
I don't believe in something unless I know everything about it...Indeed, I read about alot of beliefs and religions to know the truth and end up to believe in God as something that can't be seen but can be felt..I end up with the belief that Jesus is only a human ..An honest man who led people to God

In other words, if I can't know anything unless I give my soul to it, and devout a part of my income, a morning one day a week, and chasten my life to its guidelines. In other words, you can only comment on Christianity if you are a devout, Jesus feeling Christian? Does that not sound like an absurd argument?

Lets put that into retrospect - your comment about atheism is ungrounded since you are a believer. Your position as a believer does not let you understand atheism, and therefore, you have no ground to comment, since you do not know what it feels like to be atheist.

Likewise, I am not allowed to have, by your logic, any thoughts regarding women's issues, because I am not a woman - and they can't comment on masculine issues or subjects either, since they are not men.

Hell, lets take it even further - all my comments on the US (and the rest of the world outside the US), useless - we aren't American. I might as well stop studying Italian and Italian literature - I'm not Italian, how could I possibly understand it.

Or, I can do even better than that -

How can you punish criminals for sick offenses like pedophilia, without understanding the crime itself (in your words, committing the offense, and letting it into your heart)? How can you comment on anything you haven't done, by your logic?

In other words, you create an immunity for yourself - it's alright for Christians to get up and go to literally every corner of the world to convert people (historically, often by force), but I cannot possibly know anything about Christianity, and cannot possibly comment since I haven't yet let Jesus Christ into my soul. All I can do, is close the door in these missionaries faces, when they come, from different sects, each preaching a slightly different Bible (all of which have been mistranslated in numerous ways). And it is me who hasn't searched for the truth? Well, I guess I'm in the wrong for slamming the door in their faces - I guess I'm a rude, ignorant, un-open, unyielding stubborn jackass, who refuses to let Jesus into my life.


I have no problem with other people's beliefs, but this censorship because "I don't know what it feels like to know god" is an insult to my rights as a commenter. I could argue you do not know not knowing God properly, therefore, I think, you cannot possibly comment on this thread, as Miss Wang is a non-practitioner of Christianity, and therefore your opinion cannot possibly apply to her, by your logic. If I made such a claim, would you be a little bit insulted, hurt, set back? Now you know how I feel.

Though, in all irony, this thread has derailed completely - the thread has nothing to do with whether God exists or not - it has to do with the psychology behind people's decisions to practice certain religions - topically, Christianity, though, I see no reason why we couldn't discuss differences and rational between all religions. So far, there has been a lot of mumbojumbo about metaphysics and whatnot, but lets be honest - I think only a few of us have put out answers toward the real question, and I think, for terms of keeping coherency, one could suggest one leave their personal desire to extend their belief system out of this, and perhaps take a more scientific outlook at the question, providing rational answers, as apposed to emotional ones.

The question then, is why do certain people choose to believe this - I see no reason why people cannot comment, and, perhaps give their reasons in a logical manner (instead of saying you cannot possibly know what I feel), or give their thoughts on the subject as a whole.