Brits Out!

[Scheherazade]

https://youtu.be/AZYcjVC2rRQ

Thanks for the informative video - though, even without it, I could have guessed that you had voted for OUT and why.

[Tyrion Cheddar]

I've heard that there's a large segment of the French who want out as well. Maybe it is similar in Germany. Does anyone want to stay in the EU (outside of Scotland and Northern Ireland)?

I had to look at a map to see where Puerto Rico was. In their case they might be more worried about getting kicked out.

Don't think that's too likely. It's a gem, a conveniently located bit of the Caribbean for us. I, as a New Yorker, have enjoyed the proximity of it a few times. Also, the PR population of NY is colossal, and every year the Puerto Rican Day parade takes over NY like a blanket. Also, I like PR chicks. ;-)

[Clopin]

I do agree with you that Britain voted to get out; however, I find your assumption that those 17M, who voted IN in 1975, has now changed their minds. Actually, it was the elder population again who voted IN then; those who witnessed, experienced and endured the results of the World Wars and their consequences.

Who actually voted OUT now is the baby-boomers, who came after the wars and spent the 60s and 70s in a daze. They did not have the first-hand experience of the world wars and they are not part of the new generation who consider themselves part of a new, globalised and multinational world. To this new generation, it is incomprehensible that the UK would like to severe ties with the rest of the Europe in such a fashion but, unfortunately, they will be the ones who will actually have to live with the consequences of the decisions of a generation whose shelf-life - frankly speaking - is about to expire.

I am frustrated that the younger generation did not vote in the referendum as they should - but who knows how many of those babyboomers who voted OUT now actually did vote 40 years ago?

Well people who are 70-90 right now aren't boomers and the majority of them voted leave.

To this new generation, it is incomprehensible that the UK would like to severe ties with the rest of the Europe in such a fashion but, unfortunately, they will be the ones who will actually have to live with the consequences of the decisions of a generation whose shelf-life - frankly speaking - is about to expire.

Young people (18-24) are the most misinformed and ignorant demographic. They're mainly capable of parroting back buzzwords they've heard and accusing everyone who disagrees with them of racism. There were enough people in this age group, by the way, to clinch a remain victory, had a larger percentage of them actually voted, so don't blame boomers or the elderly for exercising their right to vote when young people couldn't be bothered.

Also this notion that the elderly are voting entirely in their own self interest in order to best 'sell the youth down the river' is total nonsense as well. Elderly people often have children and grandchildren and are looking to see that they have the best possible futures. Yes, people who are twenty today are at odds politically with their grandparents but that doesn't mean that every time a vote goes in favour of the elderly that young people are going to suffer as a result.

[Scheherazade]

Yes, people who are twenty today are at odds politically with their grandparents but that doesn't mean that every time a vote goes in favour of the elderly that young people are going to suffer as a result.

It is not about "suffering" but having to live with the consequences of another generation 's choice.

And I am quite at a loss that you would personify a whole genetation as misinformed and misguided. Merely because ypu don't agree with their views or choices?

[Clopin]

It is not about "suffering" but having to live with the consequences of another generation 's choice.

How about living with the consequences of their own choice? 64% of them chose not to vote, so they can start there.

[YesNo]

Don't think that's too likely. It's a gem, a conveniently located bit of the Caribbean for us. I, as a New Yorker, have enjoyed the proximity of it a few times. Also, the PR population of NY is colossal, and every year the Puerto Rican Day parade takes over NY like a blanket. Also, I like PR chicks. ;-)

You're right. No politician in his or her right mind would want to kick out Puerto Rico.

I was thinking regarding the municipal debts that Puerto Rico is having trouble paying, we should just allow the territory to go bankrupt.

Speaking of debt and since this is about the EU, I've never understood the Greek debt situation. Here's one take on it: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-s...an-generosity/

I still don't understand it.

[Clopin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhhpg3adfNc

Also at this point the Greeks can't even pay the interest on their debts so any further 'bailouts' are quite literally funnelling money from European taxpayers directly into the filthy, gaping, maws of the banking elite. None of it goes to Greek public services, Greek infrastructure or the Greek people.

[YesNo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhhpg3adfNc

Also at this point the Greeks can't even pay the interest on their debts so any further 'bailouts' are quite literally funnelling money from European taxpayers directly into the filthy, gaping, maws of the banking elite. None of it goes to Greek public services, Greek infrastructure or the Greek people.

Nigel Farage is a powerful speaker. He knows how to antagonize his audience while at the same time remain calm.

It does seem to me that bailouts are for the benefit of whoever holds the loans at the expense of the taxpayers, but I wonder how much money is actually coming from the taxpayers? The article I cited suggested to me that nothing was, but that may not be true.

[Ecurb]

Geez, Clopin, why do you think elite bankers have "filthy, gaping maws"? I believe many bankers brush their teeth, visit the dentist regularly, and chew with their mouths closed. Proper table manners are essential to elite money lending.

[YesNo]

When it comes to insulting others, saying things like "filthy, gaping, maws" definitely goes over the top. It draws too much attention back to the speaker even if the listener thinks it is true. Suggesting that one side is "screwing over" the other also sounds too excessive to be really effective. When I insult someone, I want it to hit hard without bouncing back on me any more than necessary. Of course some of it will bounce back and no doubt I'd deserve it.

I was impressed by Farage. He told his audience, "None of you have ever done a proper job in your lives." That was as forceful as he could have made the statement. He didn't call them names. He didn't say they were "filthy" or "screwing something". He didn't himself get upset. He just made a bold assertion that many of his supporters would likely find credible even in its exaggeration and which would maximally annoy his present listeners.

[Dreamwoven]

I am pretty sure that a plebiscite is not in line with British law, both houses of parliament need to make such a decision, and as far as I can see there is almost no support to ensure that a bill to address that will be passed.

What is odd is that no-one has addressed that question yet. Everyone is pretending that the next leader of the Conservative Party will do so. Even the media are playing along with the plebiscite as having made the decision. Much as I would like it to, it has not, it cannot.

[Ecurb]

When it comes to insulting others, saying things like "filthy, gaping, maws" definitely goes over the top. It draws too much attention back to the speaker even if the listener thinks it is true. Suggesting that one side is "screwing over" the other also sounds too excessive to be really effective. When I insult someone, I want it to hit hard without bouncing back on me any more than necessary. Of course some of it will bounce back and no doubt I'd deserve it.

I don't object to Clopin's "gaping maws" crack -- I was just trying to add a little levity to the conversation. As far as "screwing over" - I'll grant that it's not an elegant phrasing, but I didn't accuse either side of it. Instead, I suggested (as a general principle), "Don't screw over your business partners on a whim". (I later said business partners shouldn't screw each other over even if they have a legal right to.) I didn't listen to the Farage video, but I always admired Westmoreland's skill with an insult, from King Lear. He calls Oswald:

A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a
base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited,
hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a
lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson,
glass-gazing, super-serviceable finical rogue;
one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a
bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but
the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pandar,
and the son and heir of a mongrel *****: one whom I
will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest
the least syllable of thy addition.

[Dreamwoven]

David Cameron has just been discussing the weaknesses of the EU. Sweden has been a keen supporter of Britain, we share the same critical approach to the EU. Something good can still come out of this situation.

[YesNo]

I don't object to Clopin's "gaping maws" crack -- I was just trying to add a little levity to the conversation. As far as "screwing over" - I'll grant that it's not an elegant phrasing, but I didn't accuse either side of it. Instead, I suggested (as a general principle), "Don't screw over your business partners on a whim". (I later said business partners shouldn't screw each other over even if they have a legal right to.) I didn't listen to the Farage video, but I always admired Westmoreland's skill with an insult, from King Lear. He calls Oswald:

I'm not against what you said. Someone probably is screwing over someone else but it will not be easy to sort out. Rhetorically I like to have three examples in order to praise one of them. It makes it look as if I have many examples when I only have three, so I needed you and Clopin to balance off Farage. Westmoreland's insults were not as powerful as Farage's, because they were too direct, however, much of the insult is also its delivery. (I've wondered where "lily-livered" comes from.)

Something occurred to me about those 18 to 24 year-old potential voters after listening to Farage. The fact that they are as of yet mostly non-politicized should not be viewed as good news to the Remain side. It would be nice to know, if there were exit polls, how those in that age group who were politicized enough to vote actually voted.

This is the age group that aren't personally distracted by children to protect, but they are idealistic enough to be willing to protect what they perceive to be good. They are the white knights and damsels in distress who fight and resist in their own ways the dragon. Words that get associated with the righteous knights and virtuous damsels are "democracy" and "independence". These are words the Leave side has a monopoly on. The dragons could be viewed as "Germans" or "bankers" words which can bring to their minds images of foreignness and oppression.

[Ecurb]

Westmoreland's insults were (and were designed to be) "fighting words", to which no response except cowardly acceptance or a brawl is appropriate.

I just listened to Farage, and his insults (although not the rest of his speech) were ridiculous. When he said that none of his listeners had ever held a real job, he was lying (he couldn't possibly have known) and pandering to the working class. The chairman properly took him to task for it.

Also, anyone who associates "righteous knights" with "democracy" must be muddled in his thinking. Much as I admire the romantic concept of the Christian knight, neither I nor anyone who knows anything about it would find knightly duties "democratic" or even "independent".