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Thread: PoemoftheWeek

  1. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    Here's some other observations, none of which adds up to an epiphany for me:
    The poem starts in day time ("winter sun") and ends at night. Joyce sets up opposing motifs: cold road versus warm home, warm fire. Why is a branch flowering in the winter time? There's a lot of speaking in the poem: He calling, voice they know, cows moo. Perhaps within the context of the collected poems of that book, this one poem may make more sense.
    Very interesting point about the flowering branch in winter - I hadn't noticed! - So few words and I miss something like that. I suppose it could be late winter, on the cusp of spring? Blackthorn can flower as early as late February, producing white blossom before any leaves. But there may be more to it.

    The line is, "He travels after a winter sun". I took this to mean that the poem was set in the twilight. This would fit with cattle being led back to their byres following a day in the pasture, hence talk of home being warm.

    I really love short poems. They often have as much to say as long ones and they're much easier to reread many times.

    I'm not sure that there is much insight into this particular poem to be gained from the rest of the book. It was written in 1904, the rest variously between 1912 and 1924. There is not any discernable connection in terms of theme, as far as I can see. They are all nice and short though.

  2. #107
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Ok, since it's Monday in some parts of the world, I'm going to post the poem for this week. I'm posting Ezra Pound's Canto XVII from his book The Cantos, which he published in parts throughout his lifetime, starting in the mid 1920's. Canto XVII, it says here was published in 1933. The cantos are supposed to be an autobigraphical journey, but a journey in which he morphs (to use a contemporary word) with history and myth. The poem is not as complicated as it might seem, once you get over the allusions. Let me list it up front so people aren't intimidated. Allusions here are Odysseus's journey, that of Jason (of the Golden Fleece), and a ship's entrance into Venice. The names are mostly pagan dieties except for the Italian names, which are of Reniassance craftsmen, who Pound idealized.
    XVII By Ezra Pound
    So that the vines burst from my fingers
    And the bees weighted with pollen
    More heavily in the vine-shoots:
    Chirr—chir—chir-rikk—a purring sound,
    And the birds sleepily in the branches.
    ZAGREUS! IO ZAGREUS.
    With the first pale-clear of the heave
    And the cities set in the hills,
    And the goddess of the fair knees
    Moving there, with the oak-woods behind her,
    The green slope, with white hounds
    leaping about her;
    And thence down to the creek’s mouth, until evening,
    Flat water before me,
    and the trees growing in water,
    Marble trunks out of stillness,
    On past the palazzo,
    in the stillness,
    The light now, not of the sun.
    Chrysophrase,
    And the water green clear, and blue clear;
    On, to the great cliffs of amber.
    Between them,
    Cave of Nerea,
    she like a great shell curved,
    And the boat drawn without sound,
    Without odor of ship-work,
    No bird cry, nor any noise of wave moving,
    Nor splash of porpoise, nor any noise of wave moving,
    Within her cave, Nerea,
    she like a great shell curved
    In the suavity of the rock,
    cliff green-gray in the far,
    In the near, the gate-cliffs of amber,
    And the wave
    green clear, and blue clear,
    And the cave salt-white, and glare-purple,
    cool, porphyry smooth,
    the rock sea-worn.
    No gull-cry, no sound of porpoise,
    Sand as malachite, and no cold there,
    the light not of the sun.

    Zagreus, feeding his panthers,
    the turf clear as on hills under light.
    And under the almond-trees, gods,
    with them, choros nympharum. Gods,
    Hermes and Athene,
    As shaft of compass,
    Between them, trembled—
    To the left is the place of fauns,
    sylva nympharum;
    The low wood, moor-scrub,
    the doe, the young spotted dear,
    leap up through the broom-plants,
    as dry leaf amid yellow.
    And by one cut of the hills,
    the great alley of Memnons.
    Beyond, sea, crests seen over dune
    Night sea churning shingle,
    To the left, the alley of cypress.
    A boat came,
    One man holding her sail,
    Guiding her with oar caught over gunwhale, saying:
    “ There, in the forest of marble,
    “ the stone trees—out of water—
    “ the arbours of stone—
    “ marble leaf, over leaf,
    “ silver, steel over steel,
    “ silver beaks rising and crossing,
    “ prow set against prow,
    “ stone, ply over ply,
    “ the gilt beams flare of an evening”
    Borso, Carmagnola, the men of craft, i vitrei,
    Thither, at one time, time after time,
    And the waters richer than glass,
    Bronze gold, the blaze over the silver,
    Dye-pots in the torch-light,
    The flash of wave under prows,
    And the silver beaks rising and crossing.
    Stone trees, white and rose-white in the darkness,
    Cypress there by the towers,
    Drift under hulls in the night.

    “In the gloom the gold
    Gathers the light about it.”

    Now supine in burrow, half over-arched bramble,
    One eye for the sea, through the peek-hole,
    Gray light, with Athene.
    Zothar and her elephants, the gold loin-cloth,
    The sistrum, shaken, shaken,
    the cohorts of her dancers.
    And Aletha, by the bend of the shore,
    with her eyes seaward,
    and in her hands sea-wrack
    Salt-bright with foam.
    Kore through the bright meadow,
    with green-gray dust in the grass:
    “For this hour, brother of Circe.”
    Arm laid over my shoulder,
    Saw the sun for three days, and none after,
    Splendour, as the splendour of Hermes,
    And shipped thence
    to the stone place,
    Pale white, over water,
    known water,
    And the white forest of marble, bent bough over bough,
    The pleached arbour of stone,
    Thither Borso, when they shot the barbed arrow at him,
    And Carmagnola, between the two columns,
    Sigismundo, after that wreck in Dalmatia.
    Sunset like the grasshopper flying.
    Edit: Unfortunately the spacing of the lines, which I think has some significance on how you read the line, did not come through in the cut and paste. I can't help that. I don't feel, however, its a huge significance.
    Last edited by Virgil; 01-29-2006 at 10:55 AM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #108
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    For future reference, to give everyone equal chance to post poems:
    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade
    * Please post a new poem only on a Monday. (Please wait till it is Monday in your part of the world)

    * The same person cannot post another poem within the same month.
    I have never read anything by Ezra Pound. This poem seems full of imagery... Almost too much so; like Virgil suggested, they make the poem seem a little blurred and complicated but once past those... what is there?

    Would like to hear your opinions.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  4. #109
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade
    For future reference, to give everyone equal chance to post poems:

    I have never read anything by Ezra Pound. This poem seems full of imagery... Almost too much so; like Virgil suggested, they make the poem seem a little blurred and complicated but once past those... what is there?

    Would like to hear your opinions.
    Sorry if I jumped the gun, Scher.

    Funny you should say that about imagery. Ezra Pound was at the forefront of modern poetry, and he believed that a modern poem should just be the setting side by side of imagery. For instance, he gave this little poem as an example:
    [
    In a Station of the Metro by Ezra Pound
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.
    That's it. That's the whole poem. Three images, if you include the title, and from there the reader is to inductively infer his meaning. As to Canto XVII, it is a compiling of images, layered multi-fold. Sorry if the poem is too long, I didn't realize just how long until just layed out.
    Last edited by Virgil; 01-30-2006 at 12:22 AM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #110
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    Don't worry about posting again Virgil, I don't mind. I'm reading the poem now and do disagree with Scheherazade; I already see something happening in the poem. We will tackle this poem stanza by stanza? I'll have time to respond Monday evening.

  6. #111
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktd222
    Don't worry about posting again Virgil, I don't mind. I'm reading the poem now and do disagree with Scheherazade
    ktd222, I am really not sure what it is that you disagree with and disagreeing for the sake of disagreement will not do.

    -My reminder was not only directed at Virgil but also at people who have joined the Forum recently, like yourself. This Forum is visited by people from all around the world and it is good to have some rules to ensuring that everyone is getting an equal chance; and as a Moderator, I would like to make sure that it is so. I do believe that Virgil's was an honest mistake, which is why his post was not deleted.

    - I readily admitted that I had not read any of Pounds' works and I didn't express any opinion apart from the fact that the poem is rich with imagery and asked others' opinion on what they see when those are pushed aside. Do you disagree that imagery is used generously in the poem? Or that they make the poem a little complicated? If that is the case, it is purely a matter of familiarity and taste.


    Virgil,

    The length of the poem is not an issue at all. After reading again today (it was 1 am when I read it last night and didn't want to make hasty, tired posts about it), I am a little taken with it. The imagery used is -although I still think it is a little on the heavy side- is beautiful and used for a... noble cause. In my eyes, the poem is rich with sexual references (describing a very intimate moment) and the imagery makes a wonderful job of masking those so that it does not seem crude or tasteless.

    I think I would like to re-read it again later on to go through some of the references and imagery.

    *edit*
    In a Station of the Metro by Ezra Pound

    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.
    I think this is amazing; says so much in two lines and leaves so much to the reader's interpretation as well.
    Last edited by Scheherazade; 01-30-2006 at 01:57 PM.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  7. #112
    in angulo cum libro Petrarch's Love's Avatar
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    Wow, a poem like this might take us a couple weeks to untangle . Just from my quick reading of the poem I thought maybe it would be a good idea if we could sort out some of the allusions in the poem, so here are a few glosses I could make right away. Maybe others can contribute more.

    I first noticed the line in all caps. "ZAGREUS, IO ZAGREUS." Zagreus is a figure from Greek mythology. He was the son of Zeus and Persephone, but Hera (jealous as usual) had the Titans tear him to pieces and start devouring him. Somehow his heart was saved from the carnage and Zeus swallowed it which led to the creation of Dionysius (I think there's another version where Zeus gives the heart to someone else, but it ends up the same with the heart engendering Dionysus). The Dionysus connection would probably explain the reference to vines in the opening of the poem. I'm not sure, but I believe Zagreus was raised by Apollo before he was torn to pieces. If so, there could be some significance in his transfer from associations with the art of Apollo to the vines of Dionysus.

    Just in terms of language, "Io" is the Italian word for "I" (so he's declaring "I Zagreus"). A use of Italian later in the poem, "i vitrei," refers to glassworkers.

    The poem as a whole seems to work around metamorphoses (indeed, the Zagreus story may be in Ovid's Metamorphoses, I can't remember). The tree trunks of a forest inhabited by mythic figures morph into the marble columns of the buildings in Venice "growing" up out of the water. The water itself goes from being water, to "waters richer than glass," to a discussion of actual glass and glass makers. Both topically and stylistically the poem seems to blur the boundries between images, and especially the boundries between what is artful or man-made, and what is natural. I really enjoy this element of the poem.

    Also, this is the first of Pound's canti I've ever read, and I was wondering if Virgil or anyone else who's read them might comment on how it fits into the rest of the sequence. I feel as though perhaps we're missing out on some significance this context makes clearer?

  8. #113
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade
    - I readily admitted that I had not read any of Pounds' works and I didn't express any opinion apart from the fact that the poem is rich with imagery and asked others' opinion on what they see when those are pushed aside. Do you disagree that imagery is used generously in the poem? Or that they make the poem a little complicated? If that is the case, it is purely a matter of familiarity and taste.


    Virgil,

    The length of the poem is not an issue at all. After reading again today (it was 1 am when I read it last night and didn't want to make hasty, tired posts about it), I am a little taken with it. The imagery used is -although I still think it is a little on the heavy side- is beautiful and used for a... noble cause. In my eyes, the poem is rich with sexual references (describing a very intimate moment) and the imagery makes a wonderful job of masking those so that it does not seem crude or tasteless.

    I think I would like to re-read it again later on to go through some of the references and imagery.

    *edit*
    I think this is amazing; says so much in two lines and leaves so much to the reader's interpretation as well.
    I'm glad people like it. I was a little concerned, since the vague allusions can put readers off. It's almost all descriptive imagery. I don't think he makes any catagorical statements; we are supposed to infer meaning and emotion from the various images and actions he describes. And the rhythm and echoes of the language also very much add to the meaning. You know, as many times I've read this poem, I don't think I've picked up on the sexual imagery. You're right; it's there. Perhaps Scher, you can point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
    I first noticed the line in all caps. "ZAGREUS, IO ZAGREUS." Zagreus is a figure from Greek mythology. He was the son of Zeus and Persephone, but Hera (jealous as usual) had the Titans tear him to pieces and start devouring him. Somehow his heart was saved from the carnage and Zeus swallowed it which led to the creation of Dionysius (I think there's another version where Zeus gives the heart to someone else, but it ends up the same with the heart engendering Dionysus). The Dionysus connection would probably explain the reference to vines in the opening of the poem. I'm not sure, but I believe Zagreus was raised by Apollo before he was torn to pieces. If so, there could be some significance in his transfer from associations with the art of Apollo to the vines of Dionysus.

    Just in terms of language, "Io" is the Italian word for "I" (so he's declaring "I Zagreus"). A use of Italian later in the poem, "i vitrei," refers to glassworkers.
    You know, that's ["IO ZAGREUS"] the only catagorical statement. No wait, I found another: "(I) Saw the sun for three days" is another, but I can't find any others.

    Also, this is the first of Pound's canti I've ever read, and I was wondering if Virgil or anyone else who's read them might comment on how it fits into the rest of the sequence. I feel as though perhaps we're missing out on some significance this context makes clearer?
    I'll do a little research on that and summarize it in a post.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #114
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    You know, as many times I've read this poem, I don't think I've picked up on the sexual imagery. You're right; it's there. Perhaps Scher, you can point it out.
    Really? That is interesting. Like you said, the poem is very descriptive and, to me, it describes a very intimate moment (love making): 'purring sound, heave, the goddess of the fair knees, white hounds leaping about her, Cave of Nerea, Arm laid over my shoulder'... Like you said 'Jason and his ship's entrance to Venice'... So many to count.

    Now I am curious to know what your interpretation of the poem is and what made you post this poem. What do you think the imagery is used to describe? To me, from my very first reading, it has been about the decription of a sexual act so I am wondering how others interpret the meaning of the poem as well as the literary references.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  10. #115
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    There are three things I noticed:

    1)The first sentence-
    So that the vines burst from my fingers
    And the bees weighted with pollen
    More heavily in the vine-shoots:
    Chirr—chir—chir-rikk—a purring sound,
    And the birds sleepily in the branches.
    ZAGREUS! IO ZAGREUS.

    Reads almost as an action occurring. Chirr—chir—chir-rikk—a purring sound. But whats more interesting is the action in the sentence above seems ‘enabled’ because of some other events had happened So that the vines burst from my fingers… I do not know of which events, yet. Do you guys get the same sense?
    It is as if the poem is beginning in action; and the way the sentence is set up makes that action or sentence dependent.

    2)That gets to my next observation: the poems movement seems to going backwards in time, forward to present, then even farther to a time where The light now, not of the sun. Starting from the poems first sentence in action, going down stanza 1 we get a lot of placement words coupled with descriptions of a place.
    With the first pale-clear of the heave
    And the cities set in the hills,
    And the goddess of the fair knees
    Moving there
    , with the oak-woods behind her,
    The green slope, with white hounds
    leaping about her
    ;
    And [I]thence[/I](From that place or time) down to the creek’s mouth, until evening,
    Flat water before me,(Back to the present)and the trees growing in water,
    Marble trunks out of stillness,
    On past the palazzo,(Back to the past)in the stillness,
    The light now, not of the sun.
    And so on…
    We, the reader, are jumping to all of these places. To the place of Gods; to a place where there is no ‘real’ light; to a place where no birds cry, nor any noise of wave moving; to a place where the sand is of malachite, and there is no cold.

    3)There is also a heavy sound of rrr’s in the first sentence. And for me, as I’m reading the rest of stanza 1, any word that has an r sound brings me immediately back to the image of sentence one.


    ---
    Maybe this couples with the sexual imagery you see Sher.
    Last edited by ktd222; 01-30-2006 at 09:50 PM.

  11. #116
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktd222
    There are three things I noticed:

    1)The first sentence-
    So that the vines burst from my fingers
    And the bees weighted with pollen
    More heavily in the vine-shoots:
    Chirr—chir—chir-rikk—a purring sound,
    And the birds sleepily in the branches.
    ZAGREUS! IO ZAGREUS.

    Reads almost as an action occurring. Chirr—chir—chir-rikk—a purring sound. But whats more interesting is the action in the sentence above seems ‘enabled’ because of some other events had happened So that the vines burst from my fingers… I do not know of which events, yet. Do you guys get the same sense?.
    Yes, time is jumbled throughout the poem.

    2)That gets to my next observation: the poems movement seems to going backwards in time, forward to present, then even farther to a time where The light now, not of the sun.
    Yes. I think he's morphing diferent myths together with his journey.
    3)There is also a heavy sound of rrr’s in the first sentence. And for me, as I’m reading the rest of stanza 1, any word that has an r sound brings me immediately back to the image of sentence one.
    Interesting, but where? You make an interesting point. I've never quite understood the "chirr". He is emphasizing the "r" sound but where does he follow up with it?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  12. #117
    Personally, I find this full of interesting images but pretty directionless. I can see where Scher is coming from with the sex angle, but a ship entering a harbour is a pretty sexual metaphor at the best of times, so it's only natural that the same metaphorical images would overlap somewhat. But (puts Freud hat on) I sink you vill agree zat most sings come down to ZEX in ze final analyzis, ja?

    I've never been a big fan of Pound. I've always seen his work as style heavy and substance light. But I must admit that this is the first time I've read one of his poems several times (so that I could comment fairly) and it did grow on me. I can't see myself rushing out to buy any books full of Ezra though (although I may reread the few poems I've got in compendiums.)

    I'm not quite sure where the wooded hills come into it though. Venice is a flat city in a flat environment. Woods there may have been in earlier times, but hills, never. The best of the imagery is definitely that comparing Venice's architecture to trees coming from the water though - that I do like. Unfortunately, there is much that is too abstruse and life's too short to go reading commentaries on every poem I read to find out what the hell they mean. If there's not enough there for me to make up my own mind (right or wrong) I lose interest.

    And I like em short too.

    But hey, if we all liked the same poems and they were all that got posted here, it would be a dull thread. (Translates as - "Thanks for posting this pile of ******")

  13. #118
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    I know nothing about a lot of things, now I must say that Annabel Lee is a poem which can put all your senses together to understand it totally ( that is what I had to do!!) and think about your first love,the first time you felt moved by this strange feeling that no one has ever dared to explained.

  14. #119
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
    Personally, I find this full of interesting images but pretty directionless. I can see where Scher is coming from with the sex angle, but a ship entering a harbour is a pretty sexual metaphor at the best of times, so it's only natural that the same metaphorical images would overlap somewhat. But (puts Freud hat on) I sink you vill agree zat most sings come down to ZEX in ze final analyzis, ja?
    Quote Originally Posted by XC
    I'm not quite sure where the wooded hills come into it though. Venice is a flat city in a flat environment. Woods there may have been in earlier times, but hills, never. The best of the imagery is definitely that comparing Venice's architecture to trees coming from the water though - that I do like.
    I have never been to Venice myself (been on my 'TO-DO LIST' forever!) but I thought 'oak woods behind her' refers to the headboard/frame of the bed and hills to the curves of a woman's body...
    Quote Originally Posted by XC
    Unfortunately, there is much that is too abstruse and life's too short to go reading commentaries on every poem I read to find out what the hell they mean. If there's not enough there for me to make up my own mind (right or wrong) I lose interest.
    I agree with this and I like the challenge of coming up with my own interpretations.

    Virgil>I am wondering whether you missed my post earlier but I am curious to know why you chose this particular poem to be this week's poem and also what it means to you once you peel away all the references and metaphors and what not.
    Last edited by Scheherazade; 02-01-2006 at 10:12 PM.
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  15. #120
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade
    :Virgil>I am wondering whether you missed my post earlier but I am curious to know why you chose this particular poem to be this week's poem and also what it means to you once you peel away all the references and metaphors and what not.
    No, Scher I haven't forgotten. I've just been busy. I'll try now.

    Here are some of the reasons I like this poem; let me just list technical reasons, the craft of it as poetry first:
    1. The layering of images; everyone has already commented on it.
    2. The way the images just interweave with each other; here's where I've used the word morph. One scene suddenly shifts into another, as if they just grow out of each other. It's really hard to tell when the character is Odysseus, when it's Jason, when it's the Venetians, and when it's himself/narrator. Other poets have done this before, but I'm not sure anyone has doen it to this extent.
    3. Each line has such perfect rhythm and breath that if you read them, it sounds like a latin chant. Here, listen:
    Cave of Nerea,
    she like a great shell curved,
    And the boat drawn without sound,
    Without odor of ship-work,
    No bird cry, nor any noise of wave moving,
    Nor splash of porpoise, nor any noise of wave moving,
    Within her cave, Nerea,
    she like a great shell curved
    In the suavity of the rock,
    cliff green-gray in the far,
    In the near, the gate-cliffs of amber,
    And the wave
    green clear, and blue clear,
    And the cave salt-white, and glare-purple,
    cool, porphyry smooth,
    the rock sea-worn.
    No gull-cry, no sound of porpoise,
    Sand as malachite, and no cold there,
    the light not of the sun.
    He even suggests it later: choros nympharum, chorus of nymphs. BTW, the foreign language words should be italizised in my copy of the poem; that too didn't convert over in the cut & paste.

    Let me try to summarize what I think the poem is about. The cantos are supposed to be the autobiographical development of Pound as a poet. Pound hated modern consumerism (we've heard others rail in other threads about that), but his solution was not socialism/communism (that was just another economic construct). His solution was dictatorship; he sided with Mussolini and Hitler in WWII. The poem is an epiphany that great art exists in cultures like Renaissance Venice, where commerce is (to his understanding) by artisans. He thought Mussolini would recreate Renaissance Venice in the 20th century. (BTW, anyone who thinks great artists have any special insight into society is fooling themselves.) The poem takes the questing hero Odysseus blurs it with his persona, blurs it with the finding of the golden fleece, blurs it with a journey to Venice with famous Ventian artisans, and wraps it with pagan religious imagery. Now I'm not sure how the sexual imagery fits in, except to suggest that pagan religion was mixed with the sexual.

    Got to go for now. My wife is calling me to take the dog out.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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