Homosexuality

[Shea]

"Hate the sin not the sinner", to me, does not make sense. Indeed, it is an excuse to stay judgmental without judging. How can one not hate the rapist but his act of raping? Semantics abounds in fundamentalist religiosity.

That's what forgiveness is for. For many people it may take years to forgive. For example, look at Craig Scott, one of the survivors of the Columbine shooting.

"Hate the sin and not the sinner" seems incredible, but it is most certainly possible.

[cacian]

That's what forgiveness is for. For many people it may take years to forgive. For example, look at Craig Scott, one of the survivors of the Columbine shooting.

Hate the sin and not the sinner" seems incredible, but it is most certainly possible.

I am not sure I agree with this because the underlaying message of this is to hate still and that for me is wrong.
No hatred whatsover regardless is what it's at.

[Shea]

I am not sure I agree with this because the underlaying message of this is to hate still and that for me is wrong.
No hatred whatsover regardless is what it's at.

Phrase is actually one of those "bibleisms" and it's really not in there. But the idea is kind of there and you make a good point. We need less ideas of hate in our lives. I would amend the phrase to say, "Do not love the sin, but love the sinner."

[OrphanPip]

I need unbiased proof for that one.

The question is a bit of a red herring, but there is overwhelming evidence of hormonal, genetic, and environmental contributing factors and little to no scientific evidence that it is a "choice," which is itself usually a poorly defined parameter by those who use the word. What constitutes a choice?

It is the official stance of the APA and the AAP, the two largest American scientific/medical associations that address issues of sexuality, that sexuality is not a choice.

Both organizations also hold that "conversion therapy" doesn't work. So, there is also no evidence that one can reliably change sexual orientation, something which one would expect if it were readily a choice.

Also, this does not mean that sexuality cannot be malleable, people can change how they relate to their sexuality. However, just as someone's favourite flavour of ice cream can change from vanilla to chocolate over a lifetime, it doesn't mean people make conscious choices about their palette.

[Paulclem]

This issue is going to pull the Anglican chruch apart as they struggle with the evolved worldview of those who accept homosexuality within the church, and those traditionalists who do not. (In the UK)

I think the problems arise when a religion is tied to what they regard as the holy book and therefore sacrosanct. It has driven some to the catholic church already.

Now they are fighting the idea of gay marriage because they know that denying the right to a marriage in a church will then constitute a breach of a couple's human rights.

The claim of the church over the word marriage is interesting too as they are trying to define it in terms of the church's view on it - it being in their view a sacrament.

[Scheherazade]

I am still not sure what "gay lifestyle" means.

Can anyone offer an explanation?

[OrphanPip]

This issue is going to pull the Anglican chruch apart as they struggle with the evolved worldview of those who accept homosexuality within the church, and those traditionalists who do not. (In the UK)

I think the problems arise when a religion is tied to what they regard as the holy book and therefore sacrosanct. It has driven some to the catholic church already.

Now they are fighting the idea of gay marriage because they know that denying the right to a marriage in a church will then constitute a breach of a couple's human rights.

The claim of the church over the word marriage is interesting too as they are trying to define it in terms of the church's view on it - it being in their view a sacrament.

The Canadian branch is already out of communion with some of the African ones over issues of gay marriage. Although, they eventually decided on only blessing unions and allowing openly gay clergy, instead of full on marriage in order to prevent a schism with England.

We actually had an openly gay Catholic priest as an MP in Montreal, but he was eventually forced to resign his seat to remain a priest. I think the churches will always reflect the societies they find themselves in, the Catholic Church will come to the left in Quebec simply to stop itself from being completely abandoned.

I am still not sure what "gay lifestyle" means.

Can anyone offer an explanation?

An American term they seem to use to emphasize that gay people choose to be gay.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes. But personally, I don't have those urges.

But if homosexuality is a choice, and one is judging homosexuals because they've made the choice to love someone of the same sex, how can one claim they don't have those urges? If you don't have those urges, you didn't have to make a choice in the first place. Why would some have to make a choice and why would others, like you, not have to? It would seem to me that the whole "it's a choice" accusation is dependent upon, you know, people actually having to make a choice. That some do and that some don't, as you concede (even if flimsily so), would seem to support that it is indeed out of an individual's control. If it wasn't, we would all be on an equal playing field, each of us having urges for both sexes, and each of us choosing the sexuality we want to practice. I'm betting homosexuals feel pretty much the same way about being in a heterosexual relationship as you feel about being in a homosexual one.

Also, if it is a choice, why would anyone choose to be gay? Why choose to put yourself in a position of otherness, and lead yourself to possible prejudice and persecution? What, gays just want to be different, like the kids who has his face pierced up and dresses all in black?

And you never answered what exactly you disagreed with when it comes to the homosexual lifestyle.

[Scheherazade]

Just did a quick search on Chick-fil-A... Luckily, I don't like chicken. When I go to Nando's, I order the only non-chicken items available on their menu: Steak sandwich and Mediterranean salad.

[Shea]

*sigh* this is getting harder to explain because "the church" takes such a political stance on this issue, and I'm not part of "the church." I guess when someone brings up religion (which wasn't me in this conversation), it's inevitable that I'm going to get grouped in with it.

Maybe it will help if I explain it this way:

I make the choice not to get drunk. I've zero desire to get drunk and I never have. Getting drunk happens to be a popular and accepted activity but I don't agree with that lifestyle. But I also don't go shoving my Bible under people's noses and say "You shouldn't get drunk."

I'm also wondering if you guys think that I'm completely anti-gay marriage? Honestly, I really don't care if it's accepted in this country or not. I don't fight for it, and I don't fight against it. People can do what they want. Just DON'T call me a bigot!

[miyako73]

But if homosexuality is a choice, and one is judging homosexuals because they've made the choice to love someone of the same sex, how can one claim they don't have those urges? If you don't have those urges, you didn't have to make a choice in the first place. Why would some have to make a choice and why would others, like you, not have to? It would seem to me that the whole "it's a choice" accusation is dependent upon, you know, people actually having to make a choice. That some do and that some don't, as you concede (even if flimsily so), would seem to support that it is indeed out of an individual's control. If it wasn't, we would all be on an equal playing field, each of us having urges for both sexes, and each of us choosing the sexuality we want to practice. I'm betting homosexuals feel pretty much the same way about being in a heterosexual relationship as you feel about being in a homosexual one.

Also, if it is a choice, why would anyone choose to be gay? Why choose to put yourself in a position of otherness, and lead yourself to possible prejudice and persecution? What, gays just want to be different, like the kids who has his face pierced up and dresses all in black?

And you never answered what exactly you disagreed with when it comes to the homosexual lifestyle.

Right. LGBT people have moments when they ask themselves why they are what they are. If you think gay men are happy with their gayness, you don't really know their suffering. Too many of them have been duped by therapies because of their desire to change but have failed. Also, too many of them have succumbed to suicide and intentional HIV infection for eventual death because of too much suffering. If what they are is a choice, who, in their right minds, will choose death over life or suffering over stability and comfort?

[tonywalt]

*sigh* this is getting harder to explain because "the church" takes such a political stance on this issue, and I'm not part of "the church." I guess when someone brings up religion (which wasn't me in this conversation), it's inevitable that I'm going to get grouped in with it.

Maybe it will help if I explain it this way:

I make the choice not to get drunk. I've zero desire to get drunk and I never have. Getting drunk happens to be a popular and accepted activity but I don't agree with that lifestyle. But I also don't go shoving my Bible under people's noses and say "You shouldn't get drunk."

I'm also wondering if you guys think that I'm completely anti-gay marriage? Honestly, I really don't care if it's accepted in this country or not. I don't fight for it, and I don't fight against it. People can do what they want. Just DON'T call me a bigot!

Believe me, if it were a choice - hell, I'd be happy enough to be gay for a bunch of superficial reasons. I have never had a choice, as I've had heterosexual feelings even during my prepubescent stage. And that is true of virtually everyone here - just think about your first feelings of sexuality.

[Paulclem]

Right. LGBT people have moments when they ask themselves why they are what they are. If you think gay men are happy with their gayness, you don't really know their suffering. Too many of them have been duped by therapies because of their desire to change but have failed. Also, too many of them have succumbed to suicide and intentional HIV infection for eventual death because of too much suffering. If what they are is a choice, who, in their right minds, will choose death over life or suffering over stability and comfort?

This vid is from 1979. It made an impression on me when I saw it in the early eighties. It clarified the situation for gay people for me in a way I had never considered before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLc-bh_DrKw

[Paulclem]

The Canadian branch is already out of communion with some of the African ones over issues of gay marriage. Although, they eventually decided on only blessing unions and allowing openly gay clergy, instead of full on marriage in order to prevent a schism with England.

We actually had an openly gay Catholic priest as an MP in Montreal, but he was eventually forced to resign his seat to remain a priest. I think the churches will always reflect the societies they find themselves in, the Catholic Church will come to the left in Quebec simply to stop itself from being completely abandoned.

Yes - I think the African church has a powerful impact upon Anglicanism - in the UK anyway.

[OrphanPip]

Right. LGBT people have moments when they ask themselves why they are what they are. If you think gay men are happy with their gayness, you don't really know their suffering. Too many of them have been duped by therapies because of their desire to change but have failed. Also, too many of them have succumbed to suicide and intentional HIV infection for eventual death because of too much suffering. If what they are is a choice, who, in their right minds, will choose death over life or suffering over stability and comfort?

No need to be so dire though, plenty of LGBT people have been and are happy with themselves.