Stepford Wives?

[Scheherazade]

On more than one occassion recently, I got involved in discussions on housework and feminism and would like to hear your thoughts.

Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?

[The Comedian]

Speaking for myself, I try to avoid women's rights discussion, topics, etc. . .like the plague. And against my better judgment, I'm responding to this. I'll speak for myself, but I always feel in any women's rights discussion, that as a man, I'm in a lose-lose situation. If I complement a woman on keeping good house, I'll be accused of all sorts of chauvinistic slander. If I don't mention it, I'll come off as unobservant or unkind.

So usually, when these discussions or topics come up, I just keep my head down and say nothing.

[Lulim]

(...) Is doing housework or keeping where one lives tidy and clean (or worrying about those things) against women's rights movement?

Not in my opinion. But housework has always been a womens' domain; no need to take up a fight for that.

I don't know how it was in other countries, in Germany, a wife needed her husbands permission to take on a job (provided her domestic duties didn't suffer), and the husband could cancel his wifes' job (without her consent, or even asking her). This law was abandoned in 1957.

Why does a man get a pat at the back when they fix a car, dig a hole or "accomplish" some other task that is considered "manly" while a woman gets frowns or sarcastic comments for doing something slightly "domestic"?

Domestic duties were always considered as lowly tasks. Better-off-people had employees for that. There was no special education or training needed for cleaning, or doing the laundry. And it got paid poorly.
And, more importantly, men got paid for their work, they earned (traditionally, not so much anymore) the living for the family: the work had more value thereby.

Why do even women feel proud to declare they can handle a drill or change the oil in their cars but refuse to learn how to cook a meal from scratch?

Perhaps they feel, or hope having a larger share of that value inherent in men's work?

[Scheherazade]

Thanks for your reply, Lulim.

Not in my opinion. But housework has always been a womens' domain; no need to take up a fight for that.

I have no problem with doing the housework and am not questioning why it is considered women's domain (not at the moment at least ). What I would like to understand is why doing one's housework is considered "lowly" as you put it. I do not clean or cook because I am female but because I want to live in a tidy house and have some decent meal every now and then.

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

Does being a feminist today mean that one needs to refuse doing things that used to be in women's domain?

Perhaps they feel, or hope having a larger share of that value inherent in men's work?

Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

The Comedian> I hear what you are saying but... Come on! We know you want to comment!

[mikemaster70]

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

Does being a feminist today mean that one needs to refuse doing things that used to be in women's domain?Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

I see what your saying and have often wonder it myself. I take it as in a double edged sword; you can do one thing, but it's going to mean something else. You can also take the same argument and place it on men. If a man begins to do, traditionally what is seen as "women's work," then the man is automatically homosexual or effeminate, which I don't see how it is a bad thing because being able to relate to the opposite sex means you can communicate more easily. Given I am a gay man and I enjoy cleaning and cooking, but that doesn't mean I should be thought of as any less of a man, more than a woman who enjoys working on cars, establishing herself as a businesswoman, or watching sports should be considered any less of a woman.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. After that, I just think it became a little too much. It almost seems as if sometimes some feminists are trying to put men down. No one sex is better than the other, just like no one race is better than the other. I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing. Just my two cents on the matter

[JuniperWoolf]

Surely there is a bigger value in being able to do any job whether it is considered men's or women's domain?

Should be, but that's not reality is it? There's a stigma associated with housework, this whole "get back to the kitchen, *****" mentality. There's some honour and class associated with tinkering with cars, you can't say the same about unclogging a drain or washing undergarments. Housework is difficult, and should be treated with the same amount of respect and reverence as any other form of labour. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's been classified as "lower," and also as "women's work." In that frame of mind, housework can be seen as an icon of the low status of women.

...what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

The fact that you do housework isn't just fine, it's necessary. the feminist movement isn't all about people either living in slop or using men as slaves to tidy up after their wives (as women have been used in the very recent past). Women's rights issues against housework are more about equal division of labour within the household. All women should be self sufficient, and therefore they should be trained to work. This gives them security, and also self-worth. If a woman is working leading her own fulfilling life, and so is the man that she lives with, yet when they get home she is the only one cleaning the house, rearing the children and cooking the meals while he sits around and does absolutely nothing, this is against the feminist movement. Everybody who lives in a household and has an able body should share in the work of keeping it clean.

[Emil Miller]

I see what your saying and have often wonder it myself. I take it as in a double edged sword; you can do one thing, but it's going to mean something else. You can also take the same argument and place it on men. If a man begins to do, traditionally what is seen as "women's work," then the man is automatically homosexual or effeminate, which I don't see how it is a bad thing because being able to relate to the opposite sex means you can communicate more easily. Given I am a gay man and I enjoy cleaning and cooking, but that doesn't mean I should be thought of as any less of a man, more than a woman who enjoys working on cars, establishing herself as a businesswoman, or watching sports should be considered any less of a woman.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. After that, I just think it became a little too much. It almost seems as if sometimes some feminists are trying to put men down. No one sex is better than the other, just like no one race is better than the other. I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing. Just my two cents on the matter

I can see why housework is considered women's work, because that was their traditional occupation as the joint head of a family and to some extent it still is. However, if, for whatever reason, a male remains single, he has no recourse other than to do it himself unless he can afford to hire people to do it for him. Therefore, there is nothing effeminate in a male doing housework just there is nothing unfeminine in a female doing it.

[Lulim]

(...) What I would like to understand is why doing one's housework is considered "lowly" as you put it. I do not clean or cook because I am female but because I want to live in a tidy house and have some decent meal every now and then.

I'm doing these things also, and I don't mind it, because I prefer self-cooked meals to fast food, and a clean house to a dirty one. I do those things for my own comfort, and not because I'm told to.

I tried an historical approach (therefore the expression "lowly"), that's why I mentioned the example with women only being able to go to work by their husbands grace. Otherwise, they were restricted to housework, not being able to earn their own money, completely depending on their husband, and being in a somewhat inferior position.

I would like to emphasise that I do not mind being lazy or having ready meals at times; what I am beginning to mind is that I have to justify my actions when I clean my house or spend time in the kitchen. I would like to understand why these are hurting (!) the feminist movement or offending anyone who consider themselves feminists.

I haven't been in a situation when I had to defend my cleaning the house or my cooking yet, and I can only speculate that peoples' considering it harmful to the feminist movement is connected to above mentioned inferior position of housewives: Your "voluntarily submitting" to an obsolete role model, how is the feminist movement supposed to liberate women if women are contented in their position. -- That's not my opinion but my guess!

It is still strange. I mean, you aren't doing housework exclusively. You are working too.


{edit}I needed ages to compose this post; hopefully, it is somewhat correct (in regard to grammar and spelling), at least.

[Scheherazade]

Should be, but that's not reality is it? There's a stigma associated with housework, this whole "get back to the kitchen, *****" mentality. There's some honour and class associated with tinkering with cars, you can't say the same about unclogging a drain or washing undergarments. Housework is difficult, and should be treated with the same amount of respect and reverence as any other form of labour. Unfortunately, it isn't. It's been classified as "lower," and also as "women's work." In that frame of mind, housework can be seen as an icon of the low status of women.

I find this whole argument rather superficial and immature.

If women themselves start treating housework or anything domestic "lower" as well as declaring "masculine" work "honourable", something to be looked up to, then the stigma attached to housework will never be eliminated.

All women should be self sufficient, and therefore they should be trained to work. This gives them security, and also self-worth. If a woman is working leading her own fulfilling life, and so is the man that she lives with, yet when they get home she is the only one cleaning the house, rearing the children and cooking the meals while he sits around and does absolutely nothing, this is against the feminist movement. Everybody who lives in a household and has an able body should share in the work of keeping it clean.

I think you are missing the point here. We should not force our values and choices on others, assuming that is the best for them. What if a woman does not want to work outside? What if her fulfilment comes with being at home, bringing up her children and providing a safe atmosphere for them? Can a couple not have an understanding to share the responsibility of their family by one working outside while the other one stayed at home? And this can be a man opting to stay at home as well while the woman goes out to work. It is about their choices and their mutual understanding.

Personally, I believe a big part of the Feminist Movement was being able to choose whether a woman wants to go out and get a job, or stay at home. ... I believe a true feminist is a woman who takes control of her life, despite the stigmas society has put on her, and does not have to justify why she is doing what she is doing.

I very much agree with your statements here, Mike.

It is about choice and it is about being control.

I'm doing these things also, and I don't mind it, because I prefer self-cooked meals to fast food, and a clean house to a dirty one. I do those things for my own comfort, and not because I'm told to.

Exactly. Whether you live with someone else or not, we would still do these things because that is the way we choose to live.

Your "voluntarily submitting" to an obsolete role model, how is the feminist movement supposed to liberate women if women are contented in their position. -- That's not my opinion but my guess!

I understand what you are saying, Lulim

I think the problem with this kind of attitude is that women are not given the opportunity to make their own decisions but told what's good for them. If feminism means that I have to give up things I enjoy doing or find necessary for a good life, then I don't want to be one.

It is still strange. I mean, you aren't doing housework exclusively. You are working too.

I think this is another negative assumption about women: if a woman shows domestic tendencies, she could not work or be capable of coping with the life outside the house. What I am finding -much to my amazement and chagrin- is that this is the kind of negative attitude displayed mostly by those who claim to be feminists.

[motherhubbard]

I'll add some of my thoughts to this, as it has been on my mind a lot. As you may know, I've been a stay home mom for nearly 16 years. I always smell like I've been bleaching things and chopping onions. My house is a reflection of how well I see after my family. The keeping of the house is my responsibility. I take pride in keeping house, ironing, cooking meals and the like. I do not expect my husband to do any housework. He works and supports us- that's his job. I keep the house – that's my job.

For me, keeping a clean house is just one way I take care of my family. I believe that ultimately it is my responsibility as a woman. My husband would help, but I don't want him to. If he were to take doing the laundry as his regular responsibility I would feel incompetent.

I know women who do not keep their homes clean. They sit and leave the mess, sometimes bad messes. It doesn't bother them to live in a mess. I would have a hard time with that.

During student teaching I found that even though I had full time work hours and an average of 2-3 hours of homework daily my house was in the best shape ever. I was always on top of everything and it seemed so much easier. Planning meals was more challenging and took a lot of getting used to. I'm going to start teaching next month. I'll be making more money than my husband. I hope to start on my masters in the spring. How will this effect the balance of household responsibilities? Is it still ALL mine? Will it be easier since there are not children in the house to clean up after all day? Will I become an angry mother who gripes at the kids who can NEVER put a dish in the dishwasher? I worry a little. I have found myself feeling a little frustrated during that hour when I clean up after dinner, put things away, work on laundry, help kids with homework, and do the bath/bed thing while my husband watches the TV. I wonder how things will change and how I will think about these things next year?

[JuniperWoolf]

I find this whole argument rather superficial and immature.

If women themselves start treating housework or anything domestic "lower" as well as declaring "masculine" work "honourable", something to be looked up to, then the stigma attached to housework will never be eliminated.

You didn't really grasp my point. Of course the view that housework is lowly peasant's work is immature, that was basically my point. That's the way the world thinks, and it sucks.

You can't deny that before the women's rights movement, women were treated like employees by their husbands. If you pick up any book on women's history, you'll see that we weren't allowed to do anything outside of the home. Women were shoved into domestic duties and ignored, they weren't even allowed to attend university until the eighteenth century. The view of housework as slave-work goes waaaaaay back. You don't think that a reaction against this long-standing mindset is justified?

You seem to believe that it is the fault of women that housework is viewed derisively. This is not so. It is because for the last few thousand years, all we were allowed to do was frickin' housework while the big boys went to school and became writers, doctors, philosophers, politicians.

We should not force our values and choices on others, assuming that is the best for them. What if a woman does not want to work outside? What if her fulfilment comes with being at home, bringing up her children and providing a safe atmosphere for them? Can a couple not have an understanding to share the responsibility of their family by one working outside while the other one stayed at home?

This is a common argument. "Well, what if women just like housework, and they find existential meaning in picking up their husband's dirty socks?" I have strong doubts. Go around a school classroom and ask little girls what they want to be when they grow up. You'll hear firefighter, psychologist, doctor, vet, but you won't find many who say "housewife." Cleaning and child-rearing might just be the ticket for a few women (men, too), but I don't see how that number could be very high.

I'll tell you how I arrived at that conclusion: I learned in psychology that the suicide rate among housewives in the post WWII era almost leaped off the board. The reason? When the men went off to war, these women took over the country. They learned how to run factories, they could build airplanes and earn their own paycheque. When the war ended, the men got their jobs back and the women were forced (yes, forced) back to their kitchens. How riveting, scrubbing melted cheese off of a casserole dish after you've been trained as an engineer. Housework is fulfilling? Yeah, sure it is. If that's anyone's personal choice, to place all of their faith into the fact that a man is going to constantly provide a source of income (and not, oh say, screw the babysitter or just take off as very frequently happens), and she really doesn't want anything more from her life than to clean the same bloody house every day of her life, than power to her. But if this is the case, than why is the rate of suicide among housewives so high? Why are women depressed so much more often than men? Why are so many housewives on medication? I don't accept indevidual report when it comes to quality of life, because it's all controdictory; statistics in this case are at least accurate.

I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just trying to be honest.

And this can be a man opting to stay at home as well while the woman goes out to work. It is about their choices and their mutual understanding...

That I'd be cool with. Doesn't happen very often though, does it? Now, why do you think that is?

*edit* I'll re-iterate, there is nothing wrong with keeping a clean house. In order to maintain a healthy lifestyle, it is important to live somewhere that isn't going to make you sick. But what's wrong with sharing some of the responsibility? It would seem that women now are forced to keep their houses clean, AND have a career. It's too much. I could not, not, NOT be spiritually fulfilled with housework and child-rearing alone, that's who I am. If you disagree, than go clean and raise children, I don't care. I'm just saying, for the women who are like me and do not want to be a housekeeper and that's it, no other outside interests (and I would say that most women today are like me in this respect), why shouldn't the man do the frickin' dishes once in a while so you can get some writing done or go to work without being exhausted?

*second edit* (sorry, I'm just re-reading my post and making sure that I'm being clear) When I say that I don't accept individual report when it comes to quality of life, I mean that often people say one thing and feel another. It is socially accepted for a housewife to say that she is fulfilled, in saying so she gains the approval of her husband and community, and she may view it as betrayal against her family to complain or admit to being unsatisfied. You can see the reasons why self-report can't be relied upon to be valid, so we must look to another source if we want an accurate representation of the average housewives’ quality of life. Another measurement of quality of life is statistics, which never lie to serve their own purposes because they don't have an agenda. Statistically, women are much more depressed than men, and housewives are more depressed than women who have a life outside of the home (the evidence being gathered by what percentage of people are on antidepressants). Married women have a higher suicide rate than unmarried women. Here's one source for the stats, if you want more look them up yourself, the evidence is staggering.

http://depression.emedtv.com/depress...-in-women.html

[OrphanPip]

More often than not, these days a woman is expected to work, at lower wages than men, and come home to still do the housework.

Although, I think there's a difference between a wife who stays at home and does all the cleaning and cooking, and a woman who has chosen to stay at home for her kids. Many women seem to think themselves more appropriate caregivers to children. It's more understandable that a woman would want to stay at home and give more attention to their kids. I'm not sure any woman really enjoys doing all the cleaning and cooking.

[papayahed]

Ya know what bugs me? That women will put each other down at the drop of a hat, it's the little comments that always bug me. Things like "Oh, I'm not one of those girly girls", like being a girl girl is a bad thing, or the reverse "she likes sports, she must be a little funny". Why do we do that to each other?

[soundofmusic]

I am often criticized by my male pals for being too independent...a womens liber. Personally, I greatly admire women who keep a wonderful house, cook and for people like you, Scher, also manage to hold down a job.

The difficulty is, that your friends men are saying to their wives, "Look at that Scher, always looks great, has a great looking house...yada, yada...

Yes, your friends could just hit their husband over the head when he turns over without kissing them goodnight, a big smile on his face thinking of how he is going to get a home cooked meal tomorrow; but it is easier to resent you...

By the way, when we learn to change the oil or mow the yard, no one pats us on the back, the neighborhood guys just point out those "little blades of grass we missed"

[JuniperWoolf]

Ya know what bugs me? That women will put each other down at the drop of a hat, it's the little comments that always bug me. Things like "Oh, I'm not one of those girly girls", like being a girl girl is a bad thing, or the reverse "she likes sports, she must be a little funny". Why do we do that to each other?

I hate the word "b***h." There are enough men out there calling us b****es, do we really need to do that to each other? I hate it when chicks are like "I really get along much better with guys, because women are sluts." Yeah, we really need that. I refuse to call a woman a b***h, slut, whore, c***, bimbo, etc., that's just not cool.

Really though, girls putting each other down is a nightmare. I had to deal with that from my year's four or five mean girls in grades 7-8-9, a girl can make your life a living hell. They drove one girl that I know to actually cutting herself, and we only noticed when she started to bleed through her jeans. Another girl that they picked on just literally stopped talking, she just stopped. Still hasn't said a word. I was always called a lesbian, because obviously I'm pretty mouthy and opinionated and I guess that = lesbian. It's not new either, I like to call it "girl bullying." My boyfriend's mom was "girl bullied." It's this verbal, subtle kind of slow torture that girls inflict on each other. Margaret Atwood was girl bullied too, she wrote about it in Cat's Eye.