Questions re: English Language

[Sitaram]

A student of English in China has forwarded to me these questions:

1. "Through the child trained in the infant school the adult poor would be instructed in the mores of the dominant society." Here "the dominant society" refers to the ruling class, or the mass, or most of the people in a society?

2. Are "German-American academies " the schools set up by German immigrants in America?

3. Is "general session " of the NEA a meeting with the attendance of all the members?

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I do not time to really respond to them until this weekend, but I thought I might post them here in case anyone cares to comment.

The student feels that any native speaker should be able to answer quickly. For example: I am not familiar with what the NEA is, and the precise nature of a "general session" in more a matter of what an organization defines, than a matter of English usage.

The precise intent of the first sentence eludes me. I must have time to think.


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Google informs me that the NEA is the "Nuclear Energy Agency"

[Sitaram]

I have found some time to give thought to these questions. Here is my response to the student in China:

1. "Through the child trained in the infant school the adult poor would be instructed in the mores of the dominant society." Here "the dominant society" refers to the ruling class, or the mass, or most of the people in a society?

It is difficult to believe that this first sentence was written or spoken by a native English speaker. It is very confused. It seems to be attempting to express some kind of thought which is alien to the free people of a secular democracy. The thinking underlying this sentence seems to be driven by a notion of conspiracy, that there is some "ruling class" which attempts to "brainwash" the poor by seizing their infants, placing them in a school for indoctrination, and then sending the infants home to in turn indoctrinate their poverty-stricken parents. I have never heard of an "infant school."

As I reread my response to the above, I can easily imagine someone in another part of the world thinking that I am blind to whatever conspiracy or brainwashing they feel is going on in the United States. When Jefferson first suggested the idea that there be free education for all, it was an unheard of idea. Education in those times was for certain classes which could afford it. Jefferson envisioned a nation in which ALL the people would participate in the governing and legislative process. Jefferson knew this would only work if all citizens were educated to the highest degree possible. It was Jefferson's vision that inspired the opening of many small "Liberal Arts" colleges.

Certainly, Jefferson was guilty of a conspiracy. I am reminded of a similar conspiracy alluded to by the motto of St. John's College in Annapolis, MD, "Facio liberos ex liberis libris libraque", "I make free adults out of children by means of books and a balance."

As I write the above words, "The Conspiracy of Freedom" occurs to me as a title for an essay.

I wonder what results I shall find if I search in google on "conspiracy of freedom."

When I search in google on "conspiracy of freedom" I get 53 hits. I see from the nature of these hits that, if I follow any further down this path of thought, the topic will become so political that I shall find myself in violation of this forums rules against political posts. And it is certainly not my intention to alienate myself from this wonderful literature forum.

But how interesting it is that a question on English usage might lead to such a "cogitation" (as Virginia Woolf might say in "Orlando").

2. Are "German-American academies " the schools set up by German immigrants in America?

In the 1960's I used to pass by a "German-American Singing Society." I have never heard of German-American Academies. I am sure if there are such things that they would be set up by German immigrants and their first or second generation descendants. Google give no hits for "German-American Academies" but 2000 hits for "German-American Societies." I do get 53 hits for "German-American ACADEMY" (singular). I actually find a reference to a German-American Academy in Berlin, which may mean that Americans in Germany might found such an Academy for Americans.


3. Is "general session " of the NEA a meeting with the attendance of all the members?



I am not familiar with what the NEA is, and the precise nature of a "general session" in more a matter of what an organization defines, than a matter of English usage.

Google shows the NEA to stand for Nuclear Energy Agency.

I rather doubt that all members of anything ever attend a meeting at once. Our senate and congress certainly always experience absenteeism.

[Sitaram]

The student in China writes:

I encounter these sentences or phrases in a book introducing the history of American preschool education. And the "infant school" is the first preschool institution built in America or even in the world. And later another one called "kindergarten" was introduced to America from German.(http://www.wordiq.com/definition/German-American) So there is the term "German-American". Infant School and Kindergarten were two institutional reformations in preschool education in the 19th century. NEA is the abbreviation of National Education Association, whose predecessor is National Teachers Association.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Nat...on_Association)

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My reply:

The sentences sound like they are from some kind of
propaganda aimed at criticizing American society
(which is ok... I dont mind)....

I had to search on internet to find NEA.... and it
gave hundreds of links,.... but I assumed it had
something to do with the Nuclear Energy Agency.

It would help so much more if you could provide
such backgroud to your sentences and questions up
front, so I have some idea of what you are talking
about, and dont have to "spin my wheels" (waste my
time) in the search engines.

I thought of kindergarten (which I attended myself,
everyone does)... but such children, aged 5 or so,
are no longer considered "infants". The word
"infant" comes from the Latin "infans" which means
"not speaking".... infant denotes newborn through
age 2, I would say.... older than 2 is toddler.

Kindergarten age is considered preschool, which is older than
toddler (toddle means just barely able to attempt
walking)

[Scheherazade]

"Through the child trained in the infant school the adult poor would be instructed in the mores of the dominant society."

I have been reading this sentence, trying to make sentence. And I wondered if 'mores' is actually 'morals' and somehow it is misspelt/typed?

[Sitaram]

I am intrigued now at the notion that these few sentences might be from a book which is propaganda designed to criticize western capitalistic society.

First sentence:

"Through the child trained in the infant school the adult poor would be instructed in the mores of the dominant society." Here "the dominant society" refers to the ruling class, or the mass, or most of the people in a society?

Certainly we can see the notion of class, the poor, being manipulated by the dominant, with a hidden agenda to control, in that the children are ment to somehow instruct their parents.

The second sentence attempts, possibly, attempts to make a link between such class control, and the German Nazi party,.... one of Hitler's sayings for women was "Kinder, Kurch und Kuch" (children, churcth and kitchen).... that being the proper occupation of women....

Then, the sinister NEA comes into play, with their "General Assembly" as a "Big Brother" to oversee such an agenda....

I rather imagine the NEA, whatever it is, spends more time on issues of pay and benefits and retirement for teachers than schemes to indoctrinate people.... but I need to learn more about the NEA from google..

[Sitaram]

there is a term , "mores", I believe pronounced "moor-rays", which I used to hear with "folkways",.... so there really is such a term to denote something about values, or social norms... but I must research... thanks Scher.... this is fun.... and possibly helps students in China....

[Scheherazade]

Hmm... Just checked the Cambridge:

mores
plural noun FORMAL
the traditional customs and ways of behaving that are typical of a particular (part of) society:
middle-class mores
the mores and culture of the Japanese

I guess it is 'mores'... One can never learn a language properly it seems

[Sitaram]

I do enjoy conversing with this student in China. But I must say, they are somewhat impatient, and hurt my feelings on several occasions. They wanted an INSTANT answer from me to these questions in MSN messenger at 7:30am in the morning, as I am trying to prepare for work. I explained I would need perhaps through the weekend to think about these (I did not say to him BIZARRE) sentences, and he said he thought they would be a piece of cake for a native speaker.

Then, today, when he provided (FINALLY) all the background info to what he was reading, and the mystical meaning of NEA,.... he made come crack about how he "didn’t think the questions would be so difficult"....

I mentioned NEA to my 88 yr old father, and the first thing he said was National Educational Association.... but all he ever reads is the newspaper,... and he is mystified by authors names or philosophical/theological terms that are second nature to me, whereas I NEVER read the newspaper (intentionally).... and I am mystified by things that are common knowledge to others... and that’s my choice... that’s how I wish to spend my time and energy, on things that many people ignore....

That doesn’t make me stupid, just specialized....

[Sitaram]

NEA home page

http://www.nfie.org/

http://www.nea.org/index.html

[Sitaram]

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me; namely, the sad truth that Communist China would set the task for its generation of English scholars to translate, not great works of literature and philosophy, but manuals on education which demonstrate the Nazi origins of Kindergarten in capitalist societies.

[Jay]

'mores' means custom, practice, manners, behaviour, tradition... can't think of more synonymous words

[amuse]

quite right

[Jay]

*gives self a KitKat*

[Sitaram]

It occurs to me now that sentence #1 is already someone else's poor tranlation of something, and not original English. The tranlator assumed that one must also translate "kindergarten" into English, since they perceive it as a German word. But, in my opinion, Kindergarten IS an English word now, in the sense that everyone understands what it means, and any attempt to "translate" it simply causes confusion.

It is like if someone speaking English suddenly says to you "bon apetit", well, YES, in French it means "good appetite", but it would be a mistake to attempt to translate it as "good appetite", since the meaning would be lost. American usage HAS no equivalent for "bon appetit". Or, if someone sends you a letter and ends it with R.S.V.P., well, it is a mistake to attempt to render it into some form of English, since everyone knows what R.S.V.P. means, and no one would understand some awkward attempt at translation.

Greeks also have an equivalent expression, "kalee oreksie" which means literally "good appetite". When I was teaching Greeks to speak English, they would ask me how to say this, and I would say "bon apetit". They would say, "but this is FRENCH". And I would explain that in American, that's what people do; they use the French expression. Just like in France, they say "le week end", much to the consternation of French purists.

By the way, in Greek there is no word for "itchy". A Greek would say, "kati mou phayee" which literally means "something is eating me".

[Sitaram]

Now I am looking into the history of Kindergarten

http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/kindergarten.html

This next link is a very complete history of Kindergarten in Kansas.
I will admit that there is some hint of a notion in this history of Kindergarten as a method to educate poor blacks.

http://www.kckps.org/disthistory/dis...ndergarten.htm

Here is a timeline history of Kindergarten in U.S.A.

http://www.dpi.state.wi.us/dpi/dltcl...p/tkind02.html

I must say, I am not seeing a lot of Germans involved in all this.

In sentence one, all this business about the "dominant" portion of society bothers me. The one history link above makes it clear that it was the whites who were concerned with the children of former slaves at a certain point. Whites might certainly accurately be described as the dominant portion of society during the period of slavery in America.

But what does it mean to say that a dominant part of society imposes its mores upon some poor class. The black in U.S. history has certainly played a major role in influencing American culture. Look at the black influence in music, jazz, boogie woogie, spirituals. The term "big apple" for New York City was first coined by black stable boys at the southern race tracks. The term "big apple" was rediscovered in the 1970s by advertising people and it was used in a marketing campaign to increase New York City tourism.

Look at the total influence today on culture, fashion, art, literature of the African American, who for centuries was not the dominant but the dominated portion of society.

Now, as it seems to me, the ruling class in pre-revolutionary Russia, under the Tsars, was a very small minority of Russians who spoke French and were at odds with the earthy Russian peasant heritage. Tolstoy makes a dramatic point of having one character, early in the novel, tell a women that he loves her in French "Je vous aime", but later in the novel he says "I love you" in Russian, "Ya vas lyoublyou."