Christmas Reading: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev

[Nightshade]

Yes, but first time reading, you get the element of surprise in the story!

Unless you do a Night and skim the last 10 pages....

[Janine]

Unless you do a Night and skim the last 10 pages....

You know I never do that....but apparently you do, Night! Well, enjoy the middle of the book last!

I'm just wondering if I would have read it when I was in my early twenties/teens would I identify with Bazarov and Arcady moreso then the father/uncle.

papayahed, you know, that is an interesting thought. Perhaps we will all relate differently, to the various characters, depending on our own ages.
Since I am reading the book the second time I may now sympathise (being older) with the older generation....who knows.

[Scheherazade]

You guys want me to start the book immediately; before I even finish the one I am reading at the moment!

Janine> I love Snoopy and Peanuts. My favorite comics. Still read them daily.

[Dori]

finshed 8 chapters...and Im really enjoying this, great comeback read!
I need to find out abit of context , so russian history when Ive time.
Lots of it are rather timless observations of the generation gap, though arent they I can see ( actualy I have seen and heard my family having conversations simmilar to the one where Arkady explains to his father and uncle what a Nihlist is,)
also this


Cant you just see a 'punk' , well my copies translation is slightly different it says "dyed pomaded hair"... still fitting though.

My copy says "pomaded hair of various shades".

Interesting.

My translation, by Constance Garnett, says "...in whom everything -- the turquoise ring in his ear, the streaky hair plastered with grease, and the civility of his movements -- indicated a man of the new, improved generation...” Essentially, it's the same, but it is interesting to compare translations.

I'm just wondering if I would have read it when I was in my early twenties/teens would I identify with Bazarov and Arcady moreso then the father/uncle.

I'm a teen and from my previous reading of this book, I couldn't really identify with Bazarov; I believe that I indentify more with the "old idealists" as Bazarov describes Pavel and Nikolai. Also, I'm not sure I could identify with someone who said "[Nikolai Petrovich] wastes his time reading poetry." I may respect Bazarov, but I certainly cannot identify with him.

papayahed, you know, that is an interesting thought. Perhaps we will all relate differently, to the various characters, depending on our own ages.
Since I am reading the book the second time I may now sympathise (being older) with the older generation....who knows.

I'm not sure that it will depend on our age, although it might hold true to some. Like I mentioned above, I think I can identify more with the oldies than Bazarov and Arkady, and I'm a teenager.

I have read up to about Chapter 6 and am enjoying it very much. So far, I find some of the passages quite amusing and I like Arkady and his father; I am still not sure what to make of Bazarov; also of the old uncle who seems to be somewhat of a 'dandy'. I feel there will definitely be some real clash between those two somewhere in the novel. I thought it interesting to note that Arkady' father has kept a mistress and is shy or ashamed of the fact with his son. I like the way the author doesn't directly come out with this information but suggests, she is his mistress from time to time. I can see this happening to some degree, even today. The son just found out about the child, and this is especially interesting to see the son's now 'open-minded attitude' towards the whole situation; unlike his father, who is rooted in the traditions and conventions of the past. I hope I did not give away too much of the story, but it as I saidm I am only up to Chapter 6. These short Chapters fly right by quickly, so that part is not too far into the book. I accomplished this last chapter, in the waiting room at my doctor's, today. The reading is easy and enjoyable.

Pavel indeed is, as you said, somewhat of a dandy. I liked how his hand was described: “Pavel Petrovitch took out of his trouser pocket his exquisite hand with its long tapering pink nails, a hand which seemed still more exquisite from the snowy whiteness of the cuff, buttoned with a single, big opal, and gave it to his nephew." And then Bazarov, as he speaks with Arkady, goes on saying, "You're uncle's a queer fish...Only fancy such style in the country! His nails, his nails -- you ought to send them to an exhibition!" Nevertheless, from my last reading, I sympathized with Pavel throughout the story.

[Janine]

You guys want me to start the book immediately; before I even finish the one I am reading at the moment!

Janine> I love Snoopy and Peanuts. My favorite comics. Still read them daily.

Scheherazade, what are you reading now? Maybe try doing as I do; read more of that one and then just a chapter or two of the new book, just to get your feet wet, so to speak.

Yes, they are really cute and my son had a stuffed Snoopy he would sleep with every night...oh what memories. We always watched all the specials, especially this time of year. His friend and he liked Snoopy as 'The Red Baron", best of all; funny, because his friend went on to be a pilot. My mother still keeps a small collection of the miniature plastic Christmas figurines that she puts on a certain windowsill in the kitchen, I think mostly in honor of her only grandchild and our memories of when he was little and still living here. They do look so cute and we have a set of the ceramic ones for a Christmas tree that were also my sons. Perhaps we can pass them onto our newly expected grandchild and great-grandchild come spring or next Christmas.

[Quark]

I'm just wondering if I would have read it when I was in my early twenties/teens would I identify with Bazarov and Arcady moreso then the father/uncle.

papayahed, you know, that is an interesting thought. Perhaps we will all relate differently, to the various characters, depending on our own ages.
Since I am reading the book the second time I may now sympathise (being older) with the older generation....who knows.

The conflict between the younger characters and their older relatives and friends certainly is a generational one; but, it's also a matter of beliefs. I think I agree with Dori that, even though I'm closer in age to Bazarov, I actually agree more with Pavel. I'm much more of a pretentious romantic than I am a levelheaded scientist. I think my attitudes are probably closer to Bazarov's, though. At the end of chapter six Bazarov shows much of the presumptuous arrogance that characterizes youthful arguments. He says of people like Pavel:

Well, should I coddle them, these provincial aristocrats? Why, it's all pride, it's fashionable custom, it's foppishness

I think I've talked about some people like this before. I also think I've been talked to by older people like Pavel who are so close-minded that they can't even accept that others might have ideas outside of their own.

So, I agree with Pavel, but I think I empathize with Bazarov. Hopefully, that means I have the good sides of each character. Or, maybe it just means I'm really confused. I think we're probably all in the middle somewhere. That's why Ardiskii (however you spell it) is the main character. We all, to some degree, feel stuck in the middle of Pavel and Bazarov going back and forth.

Yet, if Pavel represents the older generations views, Bazarov the new, and Ardaskii (I'm going to change my spelling until I stumble into the correct one) is trapped in the middle, what is the purpose of Nikolai--the father. What purpose does he serve? Or, better put, what do you think of him?

Janine> I love Snoopy and Peanuts. My favorite comics. Still read them daily.

C'mon, what about Calvin and Hobbes?

[Dori]

...it's also a matter of beliefs. I think I agree with Dori that, even though I'm closer in age to Bazarov, I actually agree more with Pavel. I'm much more of a pretentious romantic than I am a levelheaded scientist.

I agree completely.

So, I agree with Pavel, but I think I empathize with Bazarov. Hopefully, that means I have the good sides of each character. Or, maybe it just means I'm really confused. I think we're probably all in the middle somewhere. That's why Ardiskii (however you spell it) is the main character. We all, to some degree, feel stuck in the middle of Pavel and Bazarov going back and forth.

First of all, my translation says the main character's name is Arkady (and it is spelled this way too). I agree with your final statement. I sympathize with Pavel for what he's gone through, evinced in Chapter VII, and I can relate to him, although I'm not as aristocratic as he is. Bazarov is, among other things, rebellious, nonchalant, and scientific -- three traits I don't share with him, despite my youth.

Yet, if Pavel represents the older generations views, Bazarov the new, and Ardaskii (I'm going to change my spelling until I stumble into the correct one) is trapped in the middle, what is the purpose of Nikolai--the father. What purpose does he serve? Or, better put, what do you think of him?

I don't think I'll comment on that quite yet; I'll wait until later in the story. Truthfully, even though I've read this story before, I'm not sure what to think of Nikolai (at that point I was far more interested in Pavel and Bazarov).

C'mon, what about Calvin and Hobbes?

I prefer Calvin and Hobbes to Snoopy anyday.

[Quark]

First of all, my translation says the main character's name is Arkady (and it is spelled this way too).

I looked in my copy. The MLC edition spells his name Arkadii. There are probably endless variants since they're translating it from a language with an entirely different alphabet. They could refer to him as quf%sji@#yfhii and it would be just as accurate, I guess. Whenever I read these novels it always takes me thirty or forty pages to remember who is who. If I can't pronounce the names, I often have a hard time distinguishing between Petryvitch and Petrovitch. This problem becomes even worse when they start using their patronymic or nicknames. In a scene where there are only two people having coffee, I think it's a party of twelve. If I start talking about Evgenii and Bazarov like they're two different people, just remind me.

I agree with your final statement. I sympathize with Pavel for what he's gone through, evinced in Chapter VII, and I can relate to him, although I'm not as aristocratic as he is. Bazarov is, among other things, rebellious, nonchalant, and scientific -- three traits I don't share with him, despite my youth.

I guess the question is: if you're stuck in a carriage ride between St. Petersburg and a remote town in the country, who would you rather talk to?

[Janine]

I looked in my copy. The MLC edition spells his name Arkadii. There are probably endless variants since they're translating it from a language with an entirely different alphabet. They could refer to him as quf%sji@#yfhii and it would be just as accurate, I guess. Whenever I read these novels it always takes me thirty or forty pages to remember who is who. If I can't pronounce the names, I often have a hard time distinguishing between Petryvitch and Petrovitch. This problem becomes even worse when they start using their patronymic or nicknames. In a scene where there are only two people having coffee, I think it's a party of twelve. If I start talking about Evgenii and Bazarov like they're two different people, just remind me.

Hi Quark, good to see you in the discussion, now the the L short story thread is on hold.... I hope in the new year we can start up the Chekhov again. I have those audiobook CD's.
Anyway, back to F&S, both you and Dori are making me laugh. You don't have to identify with anyone yet, really. It is funny to hear you two guys changing your mind every couple of seconds as to who you are more like. I don't know who I am identifying with at this point. I do find Bazarov as was described by Dori , "Bazarov is, among other things, rebellious, nonchalant, and scientific -- three traits I don't share with him, despite my youth." I don't boast of youth and I don't identify with his traits either, so far; which to me is strange, because I had the impression, that when I first read the book, I did feel the most empathy for Bazarov....maybe I just have not gotten far enough into the story, to feel as I once did...who knows?

Quark, your paragraph above is just how I felt on my first reading. I got so confused, with the mulitple names; you really cracked me up with your saying "They could refer to him as quf%sji@#yfhii and it would be just as accurate, I guess." I also think there are 'more people in the room', because of the surnames or whatever one technically calls them, in a Russian novel. It takes me about forty pages also, to figure out just who is who. I think my book has an introduction where it lists them....well, hopefully it does...

I guess the question is: if you're stuck in a carriage ride between St. Petersburg and a remote town in the country, who would you rather talk to?

Yes, that might be the quesion! you could want to talk to quf%ji@#fhii or maybe you would rather talk to tdfr*mige@zzfc#...

[papayahed]

The conflict between the younger characters and their older relatives and friends certainly is a generational one; but, it's also a matter of beliefs. I think I agree with Dori that, even though I'm closer in age to Bazarov, I actually agree more with Pavel. I'm much more of a pretentious romantic than I am a levelheaded scientist. I think my attitudes are probably closer to Bazarov's, though.

First of all, my translation says the main character's name is Arkady (and it is spelled this way too). I agree with your final statement. I sympathize with Pavel for what he's gone through, evinced in Chapter VII, and I can relate to him, although I'm not as aristocratic as he is. Bazarov is, among other things, rebellious, nonchalant, and scientific -- three traits I don't share with him, despite my youth.

I am the levelheaded scientist. It's funny I can clearly remember getting into debates with my uncle, very reminiscent of Bazarov/Paul(Paval). Which kind of makes me laugh because as I'm reading I'm having more sympathy for the older gents.

Side Note:

In my copy it's spelled Arcady, i think I have the Englishized version because the uncle is "Paul".

[Dori]

I looked in my copy. The MLC edition spells his name Arkadii. There are probably endless variants since they're translating it from a language with an entirely different alphabet. They could refer to him as quf%sji@#yfhii and it would be just as accurate, I guess. Whenever I read these novels it always takes me thirty or forty pages to remember who is who. If I can't pronounce the names, I often have a hard time distinguishing between Petryvitch and Petrovitch. This problem becomes even worse when they start using their patronymic or nicknames. In a scene where there are only two people having coffee, I think it's a party of twelve. If I start talking about Evgenii and Bazarov like they're two different people, just remind me.

You get used to it after a while. I don't usually have a problem with it, but I've been interested in Russian literature for the past two or three months. It becomes second nature after a while. I can see what you're saying though; for instance, Pavel's full name is Pavel Petrovitch Kirsanov and as a result he can be referred to as Pavel, Pavel Petrovitch, or Kirsanov.

I've seen translators translate names differently, but most of the time they're similar. For example, you can spell Dostoevsky's name six different ways:

Dostoevsky; Dostoevskii; Dostoievsky; Dostoyevsky; Dostoievskii; Dostoyevskii.

None of these are necessarily wrong, but the most common are Dostoevsky and Dostoyevsky.

I guess the question is: if you're stuck in a carriage ride between St. Petersburg and a remote town in the country, who would you rather talk to?

At this point, probably Pavel. I fear a conversation with Bazarov might turn into this:

Hi Quark, good to see you in the discussion, now the the L short story thread is on hold.... I hope in the new year we can start up the Chekhov again. I have those audiobook CD's.
Anyway, back to F&S, both you and Dori are making me laugh. You don't have to identify with anyone yet, really. It is funny to hear you two guys changing your mind every couple of seconds as to who you are more like. I don't know who I am identifying with at this point. I do find Bazarov as was described by Dori , "Bazarov is, among other things, rebellious, nonchalant, and scientific -- three traits I don't share with him, despite my youth." I don't boast of youth and I don't identify with his traits either, so far; which to me is strange, because I had the impression, that when I first read the book, I did feel the most empathy for Bazarov....maybe I just have not gotten far enough into the story, to feel as I once did...who knows?

I know I don't have to identify with anyone yet, but it would be interesting to see how my opinions of certain characters have changed of the course of my reading.


As for my progress, I just finished Chapter VIII.

[Dori]

Side Note:

In my copy it's spelled Arcady, i think I have the Englishized version because the uncle is "Paul".

Really? I've never come across a piece of Russian literature that replaced the Russian name with its English alternative. I for one prefer the Russian names; Paul sounds too boring.

[thelastmelon]

I've seen translators translate names differently, but most of the time they're similar. For example, you can spell Dostoevsky's name six different ways:

Dostoevsky; Dostoevskii; Dostoievsky; Dostoyevsky; Dostoievskii; Dostoyevskii.

None of these are necessarily wrong, but the most common are Dostoevsky and Dostoyevsky.

Just to add another spelling: Dostojevskij.
That's what it says about him on the Swedish Wikipedia site.

[Janine]

translations, translations, translatons....*awwwww, sigh*...are we all reading the same book? I guess we will all get the general idea of the story regardless. As Shakespeare stated "A Rose by any other name.....(you all know the rest)...."

Well, I am progressing well with this book and am hopeful of finishing it by the end of the year....haha - hey that is not far away.

I find the conversations in the book and in the forum somewhat amusing and I, too, can relate to some of these generational aspects of the book. I think the author is wonderfully wry and witty, at times with the body language and the dialogue, even the little details of clothing. The writing moves along so smoothly and so rapidly; as one forum member pointed out, this author does not 'beat around the bush', but directly conveys, what he intends directly to the reader. I liked the small bits of description, such as the one describing the young mistress' dwellings. I found that passage particularly interesting, reflecting so much in the tiny details, like things hanging over pictures, etc and the jars of gooseberry jam on the windowsill, which were Pavel's brother's favorites. I could perfectly imagine that room and Pavel's keen observations. The room had a life of it's own. I love it when, an author can convey so much, in such a small amount of text, and yet catch all the important little details.

[Scheherazade]

Janine> I am reading Behind the Scenes at the Museum at the moment. Only 100 pages left so I should be able to stat Fathers and Sons tomorrow.

C'mon, what about Calvin and Hobbes?

I prefer Calvin and Hobbes to Snoopy anyday.

Bah, humbug!

Kids today! What do they know?