The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[yanni]

Are you now questioning your own source's authority on Bach?

If so, please present your credentials in this forum for the reader to compare with...

Peter Williams (Musicologist, Arranger)

Born: May 14, 1937 - Wolverhampton, England

The eminent English musicologist, organist, and harpsichordist, Peter (Fredric) Williams, was educated at St. John's College, Cambridge (BA, 1958; Mus.B., 1959; MA, 1962; Ph.D., 1963).

In 1962 Peter Williams joined the faculty of the University of Edinburgh as a lecturer, subsequently becoming a reader (1972) and a professor (1982), where he held the first chair in performance practice in the UK. In 1985 he was made Arts and Sciences Distinguished Professor at Duke University in Durham, N.C., where he was chairman of the music department (1985-1988), university organist (1985-1990), and director of the graduate center for performance practice studies (from 1990).

As a performing artist, Peter Williams made appearances as a recitalist from 1965. As a scholar, he ranks among the foremost authorities on the organ. In addition to his learned books and articles, he has served as general editor of the series Biblioteca Organologica (80 volumes, 1966 et seq.) and as founding editor of The Organ Yearbook (from 1969). He is also founder-general editor of the series Cambridge Studies in Performance Practice and of the Duke University series Sources and Interpretation of Music. He is also general editor of the New Oxford J.S. Bach Edition.

Writings

The European Organ 1450-1850 (London, 1966; 2nd edition, 1968)
Figured Bass Accompaniment (2 vols., Edinburgh, 1970; 2nd edition, 1972)
Bach Organ Music (London, 1972; 2nd edition, 1974)
A New History of the Organ From the Greeks to the Present Day (London, 1980)
The Organ Music of J.S. Bach (3 vols., Cambridge, 1980-1984)
editor: Bach, Handel and Scarlatti; Tercentenary Essays (Cambridge, 1985)
Playing the Works of Bach (New York, 1986)
The Organ (London and New York, 1988)
with L. Todd, editor: Mozart: Perspectives in Performance (Cambridge, 1991)
The Organ in Western Culture 750-1250 (Cambridge, 1993)
The King of Instruments or, How Do Churches Come to Have Organs? (London, 1993)
The Goldberg Variations (Cambridge University Press, 2001)
The Life of Bach? (2004)

Source: Baker’s Biographical Dictionary of 20th Century Classical Musicians (1997)

Never said ALL brit musicologists are C.R.A.P members, did I?

Ta-ta!

PS Having checked the fact using a friend's portable, I now confirm that this subject indeed now rates #3 in 139000 when googling for "Bach variations" (with the quotes included)

[Musicology]

There are at least 3 documented references to the Bach contest from men alive during Bach's time. That's good enough for me. And it will be good enough unless/until they are all shown to be wrong. Does it get more simple ? Don't waste your life on nonsense Yanni. Obscurantism is a form of deliberate ignorance.

Toccata in D Major
BWV 912/2
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjtw3...eature=related

[yanni]

Thank you for your,never-asked-for,demonstration of unlimited credulness. Please continue by presenting your credentials, if any!

[Musicology]

See Credentials Below

[Musicology]

Thank you for your,never-asked-for,demonstration of unlimited credulness. Please continue by presenting your credentials, if any!

Certainly. Here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByLvd...02A3B&index=26

[yanni]

Haec est fides bachiana/handeliana, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit. Amen.

On the other hand, Goldman said it continues to see that current U.S. fundamentals are consistent with a gradual dollar depreciation. It cited the country's large current account and fiscal deficits, which will remain an obstacle to strong investment inflows into the United States

[yanni]

The Weathercock, a musical entertainment of two acts,was performed at Covent Garden Theater October 17 (1775):

The Characters

Amyand (Sir Rowland- leading role) .........(by) Mr Mattocks

Etc

Of great 'cultural' interest the play's following verse

Love’s the bane* of female glory,
Friendship’s all we dare bestow
She who would be fam’d in story
Must at distance keep the foe
But the fair who once surrenders
By a gale of passion blown
To the hands of weak defenders
Yields the glory of her own.

*that which causes ruin or woe

see The Hibernian magazine, or, Compendium of entertaining knowledge etc (Dublin) Vol 5,p664

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1775 19 April - The American Revolution begins with the battles of Lexington and Concord
14 June The United States Army is Founded by the Continental Congress. Battle of Bunker and Breeds Hill
8 August The famous 'diner de Metz', when the young marquis de La Fayette was convinced by the guest of honour, the visiting Duke of Gloucester, George III's brother, that the insurgents' revolt in America was in some measure justified.
“Claude Louis” comte de Saint-Germain war service was 27 October 1775 -27 September 1777
27 October 1775 US revolutionary congress authorises banknotes.
31st October Pygmalion is represented with the Comédie-Française, without the consent of Rousseau, and gains a great success, (the first representation in France).

Frédéric à Voltaire, Potsdam, 4 décembre 1775
J'ai participé à la faveur que le roi de France a faite à M. de Saint-Germain. Ce brave officier m'est connu de longtemps; il ne se rendra pas indigne de la place qu'il a obtenue. Il a tout le mérite qu'il faut pour la remplir, et un zèle bien louable pour le bien public; ce qui doit le rendre recommandable à tous les honnêtes gens.

26 December - Battle of Trenton

1776
January 1776 Thomas Paine a proponent of a free USA.

Thomas Dimsdale with his sons opened a banking house in 1776 in Cornhill (See http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki...don,_1759-1891 : Dimsdale Bank takes over 'Amyand, Staples & Mercer at 49 and 50 Cornhill, City of London')

[yanni]

To the lying keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological garbage:

Subject: The 1770 Mozart contact to 'an englishman" while in Italy

-The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/for...+Burney&page=2)

By same man sometime later:

-The Englishman you wish to identify is probably George Nassau Clavering (1738-89) then Resident in Florence. Later made a Baron of the Holy Roman Empire and a vital contact between the British Empire and the Holy Roman Empire in matters of culture, art and music. And, as for the stage managed progress of the secularisation of society, it involved, of course Benjamin Franklin, elites of Britain and of continental Europe). In a huge revival of pagan religion and philosophy which became, eventually, globalism.
(From http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=59067&page=2, post 24)

[lellyvigni]

To the lying keeper of the Groveling pile of musicological garbage:

Subject: The 1770 Mozart contact to 'an englishman" while in Italy

-[I]The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject.

Hi Yanni

I understand your point of view,
I thank you for your messages.

I'm a musician, I like Mozart's music also.
But I think that what you're quoting here is not at all musicological garbage. I think that this is just the official version of facts. In the Koechel catalogue of Mozart’s works from the very first to the last one, there is no Miserere attributed to Mozart in the section which deals with the work of other authors.
So the musicological version is that of "Musicology" and that of German Musicology also. Mozart didn't copy the Miserere of Allegri. He didn't write any Miserere by Allegri, in fact. It is just a legend .

[yanni]

Why did you avoid the main issue of my last post...... Robert?

Hi Yanni

I understand your point of view,
I thank you for your messages.

I'm a musician, I like Mozart's music also.
But I think that what you're quoting here is not at all musicological garbage. I think that this is just the official version of facts. In the Koechel catalogue of Mozart’s works from the very first to the last one, there is no Miserere attributed to Mozart in the section which deals with the work of other authors.
So the musicological version is that of "Musicology" and that of German Musicology also. Mozart didn't copy the Miserere of Allegri. He didn't write any Miserere by Allegri, in fact. It is just a legend .

[lellyvigni]

Why did you avoid the main issue of my last post...... Robert?

Hi Yanni

mmm ... I see your mind is busy with conspiracies theories.

I'm not Robert. I'm the Marquis of Ligniville. You could call me ... Marquis, if you like .

[Musicology]

Hi there Yanni,

I am certainly not Lellyvigni. In fact if your last posts were less aggressive I would have replied to you by now. They contain nothing new. Except a new kind of insults. Very interesting they are also.

Greetings to Lellyvigini !

I am pleased you are interested in the subject of W.A. Mozart (the real one and not the invention) and that you have studied the subject in some detail. Please tell us what you think about the PDF thread by L. Bianchini which was closed after few people actually managed to read it. It is always good to hear from researchers on this subject. (Yanni has timelines and we may perhaps discuss the actual evidence). He wants to prove that GF Handel and JS Bach are the same person. Which is an amusing subject, you may agree ?

As for Leopold Mozart and the faked exam of 1770 in Bologna this is connected with the claim that Wolfgang wrote a version of the Allegri Miserere in Rome from memory during that same year. Which, as you correctly say, has never been proved. Because it too is another Mozart myth. Since a Mozart version of the Allegri 'Miserere' has never been contained in any published list of Mozart's arrangements. Never. In fact. You are completely correct. Best wishes to you.

[lellyvigni]

Hi there Yanni,

Greetings to Lellyvigni !

I am pleased you are interested in the subject of W.A. Mozart (the real one and not the invention) and that you have studied the subject in some detail. Please tell us what you think about the PDF thread by L. Bianchini which was closed after few people actually managed to read it. It is always good to hear from researchers on this subject. (Yanni has timelines and we may perhaps discuss the actual evidence). He wants to prove that GF Handel and JS Bach are the same person. Which is an amusing subject, you may agree ?

As for Leopold Mozart and the faked exam of 1770 in Bologna this is connected with the claim that Wolfgang wrote a version of the Allegri Miserere in Rome from memory during that same year. Which, as you correctly say, has never been proved. Because it too is another Mozart myth. Since a Mozart version of the Allegri 'Miserere' has never been contained in any published list of Mozart's arrangements. Never. In fact. You are completely correct. Best wishes to you.

Hi Musicology,
I suppose you are the Robert that Yanni supposed I was. ...

Nice to meet. Yes, I see your point.

I know there is this letter, written by Leopold (1770) - is this the document you are refering to?

"He had to appear in the Hall of the Academy at four o`clock in the afternoon. There the Princeps Accademiae and 2 Censores who all three are old Kappelmeisters, put before him, in the presence of all the members, an antiphon taken from an Antiphoner, on which he had to write a 4-part setting in an adjoining room, where he was taken by the Pedellus, who then locked the door after him. Once he had completed it the paper was examined by the Censores and all chapel masters and composers. Then a vote was taken which was done by means of white and black balls. As all the balls were white he was called in and everyone applauded his entry and congratulated him. ...Everyone was amazed he completed the exam so quickly as many people had spent 3 hours on a 3-line Antiphon"

I'm interested in that pdf you're talking about. Where can I download it? Could you provide me with a link.

Thanks to you and Yanni for allowing me to participate in these discussions .

[Musicology]

Dear Marquis,

Thank you for your letter

The brilliant research of Luca Bianchini deserves credit for bringing together all of the documentary evidence in this PDF - the most detailed article on the hoax of 1770 which has so far been published.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

I hope you find it interesting and informative. It is a small but basic part of the ongoing criticism of the cultural and musical myth that is Mozart. There are more than a dozen similar articles that will shortly become available.

Yanni will no doubt join in congratulating Mr Bianchini for this outstanding work.

Regards

Robert Newman

[lellyvigni]

Dear Marquis,

Thank you for your letter

The brilliant research of Luca Bianchini deserves credit for bringing together all of the documentary evidence in this PDF - the most detailed article on the hoax of 1770 which has so far been published.

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6x6caeo2a84yfj

I hope you find it interesting and informative. It is a small but basic part of the ongoing criticism of the cultural and musical myth that is Mozart. There are more than a dozen similar articles that will shortly become available.

Yanni will no doubt join in congratulating Mr Bianchini for this outstanding work.

Regards

Robert Newman

Hi Musicology,
thank you for your kind message.

I agree that this Miserere story is just a legend. One of many.
It's a legend also that a person could be 'excommunicated' just for copying it. There is no trace of any such Mozart version in the documents of the Vatican.
It is a legend there was a document threatening excommunication for the copying of the Allegri 'Miserere' because in the archives of the Vatican I did not find any papal bulls or any documents that states there was ever any such threat of excommunication or forbidding it from being copied.It is also a legend that there were no copies of the Allegri Miserere available in Rome in 1770. In fact, as you know, Mr Newman, there were dozens available. Thank you.

I'll download the pdf. Thank you Mr. Musicology .