Gentlemen,Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle
I thought you might enjoy seeing the album, so I took a picture of the front and portion of the bach.
On the cover, Bach appears to be a cross between a member of Fleetwood Mac and a Greenwich Village minstrel, anyhow, this might give you some food for thought.
Regards
Gilliatt
.
Bache/Handel ....devoted his last years to oratorio, showing that (in his own words)
"the English Language which is so expressive of the sublimest Sentiments, is the best adapted of any to the full and solemn Kind of Musick".
Nice picture,Gilliat: He is on his way to London, making sure his wallet is still in place (next to his 'Herze').
Last edited by yanni; 01-04-2011 at 06:34 AM.
Yanni,
Kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 2010 Manager of Macdonalds restaurant in Athens, Greece. Since it will be more in context than your last post. You can provide a context, can't you Yanni ?
In the meantime, a musical divertimento -
J.S. Bach
Orchestral Suite No. 2
BWV 1067/1
Overture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJUSu...eature=related
Ta, ta !!
Last edited by Musicology; 01-04-2011 at 10:20 AM.
Your pains to sterilize 'Bach' from his London family, friends and associates, are praiseworthy Robert but don't you find it of importance that his son, the aforementioned Claudius Amyand jr(aka Frederick de Nicolay, Immanuel Kant, J.J.Rousseau etc ), married Frances, daughter of rev Thomas Payne, on November 26, 1761?
Or that she, Frances, had also a brother, Thomas or Tom, bookseller/printer (1719-1799), address: 1) next the Mew's Gate, near St Martin's Church in Cheapside 2) near the South Sea House, Bishopsgate Street?
Were these Paynes related, I wonder, to the second Grand Master (freemason) George Payne (succeeded by John Desaguliers in 1719, ie Handel/Bach/HM's doctor Claude senior Amyand)?
Or to the "other" Thomas Paine (of MacDonalds)?
Naaaah, too paynefull to believe true!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Payne_(Freemason)
Last edited by yanni; 01-04-2011 at 01:27 PM.
Yanni,
This may be relevant to GF Handel. But how does it show JS Bach was ''the same man as GF Handel'' (and vice versa) ? You haven't told us. Thanks for the visit to an 18th century coffee shop but the facts remain the facts. What exactly is the connection you are still searching for ? Over several months you have played on the edge of GF Handel's career. A career which (I've repeatedly said) was massively faked. And which you may agree is a fact.
Shall I repeat those Handel posts which say so? With the published sources and text from letters of the time which say so ?
(I have the feeling 2011 may be a long year !!)
Anyway to make things more wonderful (and less fraudulent) - some music from a composer discovered by Vienna ('city of music') and everywhere else in the musical world only with great reluctance. And in small doses. Of course. LOL !!! You have to laugh at this.
Orchestral Suite 3 (aka Cosmic Dance No 239) LOL !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3vI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bfJ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPN9T...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_et...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 01-04-2011 at 02:33 PM.
Elementary, my dear Watson, provided of course you had gone to the trouble of following my advise, long ago, to start by reading my "Two works by Poe decoded", in this here forum, and then follow to next threads by me, all relevant and interlinked.
Can't make a list of the countless indications/evidence leading to last conclusion that 'Bach' (Johan Sebastian Koch actually)/Handel was the same with Dr Amyand/Cocchi, but, besides the fact of your own failure (to provide one single instance 'Bach' is on record as being at a different place than any of the other three), the fact Tom Payne arrived at McDonalds of Philadelphia carrying a letter of recommendation-for employment-addressed to Manager Richard Bache, signed by his father-in-law- and heavily indebted at the time* -B.Franklin, should suffice!
Franklin's own relations to many 'Cocchi Americano's', all relevant and interlinked as well- some even on record printing the 'revolutionary'-in its concept- and first ever 'McDonald catalogue' in Paris in parallel to the one by Paine in Philadelphia (on 'The Rights of Customer')- have long be established too,as per Poe thread above.
And no, it won't be a 'long 2011', the subject is exhausted but it propably is hard to digest, not just because of the form of presentation.
Regards!
*Finding out who french-minister-of-defense was then, will surely help you a lot.
PS "The facts remain the facts": I read it as a bad joke only!
Last edited by yanni; 01-05-2011 at 04:16 AM.
This really is my last post on this thread. Once the clowns have left we can have some music. Richard Bache was an Englishman who died in 1811.
JS Bach (1685-1750)
Fantasie and Fugue in A Minor
BWV 944
Sviatoslav Richter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7OS_...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 01-05-2011 at 06:22 AM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I
...and close the door before you do!
Yanni,
1. You have provided zero evidence JS Bach was GF Handel and vice-versa.
2. Your most recent posts have returned (once again) to information that may be of relevance to the fake career of GF Handel. (As I have said repeatedly). But not on JS Bach.
3. Over the past months you have provided not a single evidence of GF Handel and JS Bach being the same person. Have you ? Despite being asked repeatedly to provide some. But your reply is to rely on even more obscure hints and suggestions which have nothing, in fact, to do with the life and career of JS Bach. And still we want to see some evidence. The truth is you have none. And nor does anyone else.
4. Evidence has also been presented here of the fake career of G.F. Handel. Here (once again) are some of hundreds of proofs of this fact.
‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’
(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni)
And here, if you believe in reading/learning, is another (far more substantial in size) -
''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers: A Presentation of Evidence'' (1906)
http://www.mediafire.com/?t2v2385o6wdd76v
Conclusion -
One side is presenting facts and the other is not. You really do not know what you are talking about. Let others decide. Door now closed. As requested.
Regards
Last edited by Musicology; 01-05-2011 at 06:47 PM.
Tutti mi chiedono, tutti mi vogliono,
donne, ragazzi, vecchi, fanciulle:
Qua la parrucca. Presto la barba
Qua la sanguigna. Presto il biglietto
Figaro ... Figaro
Son qua, son qua.
Figaro... Figaro...
Eccomi qua.
Ahimè, che furia!
Ahimè, che folla!
Una alla volta, per carità!
Figaro su, Figaro giù
Pronto prontissimo son come il fulmine:
sono il factotum della città.
Ah, bravo Figaro!
Bravo, bravissimo;
a te fortuna non mancherà. 'Figaro, Figaro (1784)
Oxford's period of predominance was now at an end, and Anne turned to Bolingbroke and Marlborough to assume the reins of government and ensure a smooth succession. But beneath the weight of hostility the Queen's health, already fragile, rapidly deteriorated, and on 1 August 1714 (O.S) – the day the Marlboroughs returned to England – she died.[132] ....the regents chosen by George prepared for his arrival.[133] The accession boded ill for the 'men of Utrecht' – Bolingbroke and Oxford. Bolingbroke (a staunch Jacobite) fled to France, while vengeful Whigs pursued Oxford to the Tower. In contrast, Marlborough was received with the greatest cordiality. The new King had not entirely forgiven him his flirtations with Saint-Germain*, and he had no intention of employing him in any but military capacities. However, reappointed as Captain-General, Master-General of Ordnance, and Colonel of the 1st Foot Guards, Marlborough once more became a person of influence and respect at court.....While living at Windsor Lodge he suffered another stroke in June 1722, not long after his 72nd birthday. Finally, at 4 a.m on 16 June (O.S), in the presence of his wife and two surviving daughters Henrietta Godolphin and Mary Montagu, the 1st Duke of Marlborough died. (Wikipedia on Churchill, first duke of Marlborough)
George's mother, the Electress Sophia, died on 28 May 1714[29]. ….George was now Queen Anne's direct heir. He swiftly revised the membership of the Regency Council that would take power after Anne's death, as it was known that Anne's health was failing and politicians in Britain were jostling for power.[30] She suffered a stroke, which left her unable to speak and died on 1 August. The list of regents was opened, the members sworn in, and George was proclaimed King of Great Britain and Ireland.[31] Partly due to contrary winds, which kept him in The Hague awaiting passage,[32] he did not arrive in Britain until 18 September. George was crowned at Westminster Abbey on 20 October.[2]
Barber; Claudius Amyand, at 170l. per an., 1 Aug. 1714 to Michaelmas 1716 From: 'Declared Accounts: Civil List', Calendar of Treasury Books, Volume 30: 1716 (1958), pp. CLXXXIII-CCXVIII. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=85262 Date accessed: 06 January 2011.
One of the barber's sons, Claudius Amyand jr, in his father's steps:
He held many political appointments ; succeeded to one after Henry Fox, afterwards Lord Holland. He was M.P. for Tregony and Sandwich. He died in 1774,**without issue, having married Lady Northampton, and was buried in Langleybury Church, Hertfordshire. CHARLES HAWKINS. Savile Row.
It may interest MR. WINTERS to know that in theyear 1762 there was a banking firm in London styled Sir George Amyand***, Staples & Mercer, carrying on business in Cornhill, near to Gracechurch Street.
In 1776 this firm became Staples, Baron Dimsdale & Co., 50, Cornhill, which now flourishes under the style of Dimsdale & Co****. F. G. H. PRICEhttp://nq.oxfordjournals.org/content....full.pdf+html
*"Saint Germain" refers to James II, living in Paris, France at the time of Marlborough's alleged "flirtations". http://www.history.com/topics/james-ii-britain
** a convenient year for a premature death.
***Died 16 August 1766.
****It was Dr.Dimsdale&Co's withdrawal (of their credit insurance coverage) however, early 1771, that brought about the collapse of Scottish Banks in 1772. http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...g/chapter9.htm
Last edited by yanni; 01-06-2011 at 07:06 AM.
Rare video from Autumn of 1717* (* LOL) of a certain JS Bach warming up to meet the keyboard challenge given to him by one Jesuit superstar Louis Marchand (1669-1732)- Marchand returning home without bothering to compete. (Friends in high places, or what ??). Must have been GF Handel instead, yes ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzY3...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 01-06-2011 at 04:47 PM.
Trusting solid(!) evidence as provided by the same old suspects?
I have news for you:
Perhaps the most famous anecdote about Marchand is the account of the competition he was supposed to have with Johann Sebastian Bach in Dresden in September 1717. According to Marpurg, Jakob Adlung, and other German sources (the story is not found in any French documents), the two composers were to have a contest in harpsichord performance, and Marchand fled before Bach's arrival, apparently out of fear of being defeated. This story, retold with various embellishments by Bach's later biographers such as Johann Nikolaus Forkel, was only subjected to close scrutiny by late 20th century scholars; no conclusive proof exists that Marchand ran away, or even that he knew the competition was to take place.[3] Note 3: See Williams, 2007 (...and wake up to reality)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Marchand (Of note: There seem to be no french records available concerning a return to France, following his 1713 alleged "trip to Germany", either. His biography ends then and "there").
Merry Xmas (today, in line with the Julian calendar)!
Last edited by yanni; 01-07-2011 at 01:40 PM.
Actually, the account of what happened in late 1717 in the challenge made by Marchand on JS Bach comes from well within Bach's own lifetime. From the year of 1739, in fact. From J.A. Birnbaum, teacher of rhetoric in Leipzig. And from various others of around the same time.
He writes that Marchand was ‘the greatest man in all France on the clavier and the organ’ and the contest was to have taken place on the clavier (1739;Dok.II p.348, NBR p.79). There was also Jakob Adlung, who claims to have had the same story confirmed by Bach himself, using the same terminology (1758; Dok.III p.121, BR p.445).
I suppose that makes it worthy of your belief. But if not, well, at least you see it is not an invented idea.
Toccata
BWV 915
Inese Klotina, piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU5NT3bMuk&feature=fvst
Last edited by Musicology; 01-07-2011 at 06:07 PM.
The repetition of halftruths does not make your burden any lighter, dear Watson, neither does your selection to avoid mentioning your source -which happens to be the very one (Williams) who concludes that the 1717 contest is unsourced*!
Your 'JSBach' was just as great a liar, fake, cheat etc as your 'GFHandel'**, qualities that were apparently of greater value to the Hanoverian courts (than Louis XIV's- as 'Marchand'***most propably, his music included in Magdalena's buchlein as well) hence his later deification in London!
To conclude: Three centuries after 'Amyand's' London arrival, the fact not just musicologists but historians as well, are still 'reluctant' to reveal the truth, supporting their own 'conclusions' thru such trustworthy 'sources' reveals just how wide the C.R.A.P association really still is.
Ta-ta!
*Birnbaum's 'source' was 'JSBach' himself, the contest further 'confirmed' by 'Bach's' own 'Obituary'. (see J.S. Bach: a life in music By Peter F. Williams p 118-9)
**In his book on Bach, Williams has 96 references on Handel , indirectly confirming their common identity.
***We have to thank, besides 'Bach', another notorious liar, moreover a scottsman, for 'Marchand's early biography details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89v...iton_du_Tillet, his 'story' proving our hero's strong links and influence in 1740's Paris.
Last edited by yanni; 01-08-2011 at 07:29 AM.
'No conclusive proof that Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition in 1717' ? LOL !!! We have documentary evidence of it from Bach's own lifetime. And from years after his death. What IS conclusive proof ? It is a documented fact Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition and ran away when he heard his opponent practicing the evening before it was due to take place. And you don't like documented facts. So I will give you more. Because you specialise in avoiding them.
Marchand came to tour in Germany for several years from late 1713 onwards. In September 1717 the Dresden court was to have been the scene of a contest between Marchand and J.S. Bach. And there are not two but three sources of the time who say so. They all describe this unflattering episode in Marchand’s career - F.W. Marpurg, J.A. Birnbaum and Jacob Adlung; all of whom agree Marchand slipped away. I wonder why ? Possibly because the music speaks for itself. LOL !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbHo...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 01-08-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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