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Thread: The Best Work of All-Time?

  1. #31
    Registered User kelby_lake's Avatar
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    Best Epic Poem of All-Time?
    Okay, I haven't exactly finished any. I liked parts of The Faerie Queene. Does The Waste Land count? I might go for that, seeing as it's the only one I've finished.

    Best Sonnet of All-Time?
    I have to hand it to Shakespeare, really. Sonnet 18 has already been suggested- for me it is the pivotal moment in the sequence. But I might go for Sonnet 61, because I love the jealousy and uncertainty of it, and the last two lines are great. Honourable mention goes to Sonnet 129, the angry rough sonnet on lust.

    Best Other Poem of All-Time

    There are loads but I'll go for Les Noyades by Algernon Swinburne, because there are lines that are just so powerful. This has to be the most seductive last verse of a poem:

    But you would have felt my soul in a kiss,
    And known that once if I loved you well;
    And I would have given my soul for this
    To burn for ever in burning hell.

    I'm also adding Neutral Tones by Thomas Hardy, because I love how poignant it is.

    Best Short Story of All-Time?
    Hmm, none are coming to mind at the moment. I might go for The Diamond as Big as The Ritz, just because it's so weird and extravagant.

    Best Novella of All-Time?
    The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka. Depressing, surreal and powerful. And he managed to get himself into the English language as an adjective, so he must be pretty cool.

    Best Serial of All-Time?
    Corn Flakes

    Best Comedic Play of All-Time?
    Why does everybody find Lysistrata so funny? I like tragic plays and darkly comic plays. But I'll go for Noises Off because it's very clever.

    Best Dramatic Play of All-Time?
    Ooh, I don't know what to choose! I'll go for Measure for Measure. The scenes between Angelo and Isabella are some of the most powerful scenes in the history of drama. But I'm also adding The Seagull by Anton Chekhov, because it's just brilliant.

    Best Comedic Novel of All-Time?
    I love Vanity Fair so I'll go with that

    Best Dramatic Novel of All-Time?
    Oh, so many... I haven't finished Anna Karenina but it's becoming a strong contender.

  2. #32
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I'll go out on a limb and say that Hamlet-Macbeth-King Lear is a greater threesome of tragic plays than the Oedipus Cycle in the same way "Madame Butterfly"-"La Boheme"-"Tosca" are a better selection of musical pieces than Beethoven's 9th Symphony

    I'm with you on Shakespeare... but while I quite love Puccini... I'd take Beethoven's 9th.
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  3. #33
    Lord of Dunsinane Lord Macbeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
    The same can be said about any of the greats. Not just Shakespeare. He is of course the dominant name of western literature, his influence unboundable. But his quality is not so absolute that he does not admit a tea party with guys lie Plato, Sophocles, Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Dante, Cervantes... But since mortal pointed at him, it is not a matter of style, but Gibbon Fall and Rise will make all english kings eat dust. And this really if we do not bring confucious to the table, to name one...
    I know, I was just saying that all those immortal lines in ONE monologue makes it, for me, the greatest selection of text in history.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelby_lake View Post
    Best Epic Poem of All-Time?
    Okay, I haven't exactly finished any. I liked parts of The Faerie Queene. Does The Waste Land count? I might go for that, seeing as it's the only one I've finished.

    Best Sonnet of All-Time?
    I have to hand it to Shakespeare, really. Sonnet 18 has already been suggested- for me it is the pivotal moment in the sequence. But I might go for Sonnet 61, because I love the jealousy and uncertainty of it, and the last two lines are great. Honourable mention goes to Sonnet 129, the angry rough sonnet on lust.

    Best Other Poem of All-Time

    There are loads but I'll go for Les Noyades by Algernon Swinburne, because there are lines that are just so powerful. This has to be the most seductive last verse of a poem:

    But you would have felt my soul in a kiss,
    And known that once if I loved you well;
    And I would have given my soul for this
    To burn for ever in burning hell.

    I'm also adding Neutral Tones by Thomas Hardy, because I love how poignant it is.

    Best Short Story of All-Time?
    Hmm, none are coming to mind at the moment. I might go for The Diamond as Big as The Ritz, just because it's so weird and extravagant.

    Best Novella of All-Time?
    The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka. Depressing, surreal and powerful. And he managed to get himself into the English language as an adjective, so he must be pretty cool.

    Best Serial of All-Time?
    Corn Flakes

    Best Comedic Play of All-Time?
    Why does everybody find Lysistrata so funny? I like tragic plays and darkly comic plays. But I'll go for Noises Off because it's very clever.

    Best Dramatic Play of All-Time?
    Ooh, I don't know what to choose! I'll go for Measure for Measure. The scenes between Angelo and Isabella are some of the most powerful scenes in the history of drama. But I'm also adding The Seagull by Anton Chekhov, because it's just brilliant.

    Best Comedic Novel of All-Time?
    I love Vanity Fair so I'll go with that

    Best Dramatic Novel of All-Time?
    Oh, so many... I haven't finished Anna Karenina but it's becoming a strong contender.
    Nice picks, most of them I like...

    But Measure for Measure is a COMEDY...not a dramatic play (but a nice nod to the staged brilliance of Noises Off!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kelby_lake View Post
    Sonnet 18, read out of the sequence, is a nice love poem. But read as part of the sequence, it is an unashamed avowal of love for this guy who he's been telling to marry and have children. The relationship doesn't go well and near the end of the sonnets, the narrator becomes cynical towards love- Sonnet 18 is from more innocent days.

    Its universal power for me is not "You are the prettiest thing ever and when you die, you'll live on here." It's how innocent and unashamed it is, and how despite the many problems this relationship may face, this document is a reminder of the power of that first love.
    It's true that Shakespeare wrote that for hire and for a close male friend of his, the so-called "Lovely Boy."

    However, I don't think that lessens the meaning, he may have written it for hire, but still...and I don't think the fullest power of it is "You are the prettiest thing ever and when you die, you'll live on here" but rather second portion of that emphasized, "You will live IN HERE [in the narrator's heart and in the poem's body] eternally, and eternally youthful and beautiful in my mind's eye."
    Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...

  4. #34
    Registered User keilj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Macbeth View Post
    Firstly, how "abominable" any Shakespeare play is...even his worst works still have their moments, still have their lines...and Trolius and Cressida and Timon of Athens aren't all that bad, FAR below his standard, but I think they actually suffer for that fact, if they were written by another writer of the period we might appreciate what they do well more (and they certainly do have aspects which are very good, the more modern relationship between Trolius and Cressida and the possible rejection of ascetisicm by Timon are both themes which seem far more modern and are written of more today, hence their negative reception in Shakespeare's day) instead of suffering against seemingly-unfair comparison with the "big boys" of the Bard, Hamlet, Macbeth, Julius Caesar, Antony and Cleopatra, Romeo and Juliet King Lear, Othello, Richard III, and Henry IV Parts 1 and 2, besides which are all the comedies, The Merchant of Venice, which sort of straddles the line between the two categories, Coroilanus, which T.S. Eliot famously described as not only far better than Hamlet but perhaps Shakespeare's finest play, and Titus Andronicus, which has always been looked down upon by scholars as being the worst or near-worst of Shakespeare's works, but I believe it to be VASTLY underrated and underappreciated, it really is a Shakespearean Sweeney Todd, low on elegance but high on atmosphere, and Julie Taymor's movie version really does it justice, if you've never seen it...simply BRILLIANT.

    The Histories together may not measure up cohesively to the Oedipus Cycle, but in terms of having as much aggregate literary worth? Again, even if you wish to throw out the "clunkers," we're left with four plays that rank high, and perhaps it's no coincidence that they themselves are their own cycle, from Richard III to Henry V is a great story with overarching themes and characters, the three Henry plays serving as the main body and probably the best coming-of-age tale ever staged with one of if not the greatest comedic character in Falstaff, the changing relation between he and Prince Hal/Henry V really is one of Shakespeare's best pairings, and then Richard III ALONE is a masterpiece, and in this context serves as perhaps the greatest "prequel" in history.




    Maybe the Histories don't measure up to the Oedipus Cycle play-by-paly, but I still think that taken as a whole, or, perhaps more appropriately, the Richard III-Henry V cycle-within-the-cycle of histories, the aggregate of literary worth matches respectably, if not exactly.

    But I cannot pin an argument for Shakespearean Tragedy's supremacy on the Histories...it'd be like arguing the 1980s 49ers dynasty was the best ever in the NFL without making mention of Joe Montana and the West Coast Offense.

    So I'll go out on a limb and say that Hamlet-Macbeth-King Lear is a greater threesome of tragic plays than the Oedipus Cycle in the same way "Madame Butterfly"-"La Boheme"-"Tosca" are a better selection of musical pieces than Beethoven's 9th Symphony--the sum is FAR greater than the parts in the case of Beethoven's work than in Puccini's three, unconnected operas, but on the merits of the parts ALONE Puccini's works are superior, as the parts by themselves may be brilliant, but cannot match the sheer bredth of brilliance exhibitied by one of the operas.

    Sophocles' works ARE great, but their connectivty is, in this respect, both a strength and weakness in terms of their merit--apart they are but great, together they are THE Cycle, yes...but that cannot change the fact that they are still caught in the situation of trying to maintain their OWN identity while remaining a PART of a greater whole. Shakespeare's Tragedies, by contrast, may not connect (at least not systematically, thematically it can be argued that they DO, but that's a whole different matter) but are BY THEMSELVES the greatest staged tragedies in history.

    To put it into perspective, we receive the full extent of Oedipus' suffering in three doses, three parts--even with the enormity of the traedy in Oedipus Rex, the tragic fall THERE somehow seems less BY ITSELF than, say, Hamlet, Macbeth, or LEar suffering, as THEY have all of their tragic woes compacted into one enormously-powerful piece, in his ONE PLAY we have more of a sense of what Hamlet's suffering or Macbeth's fall from grace or Lear's tragic condition means, how it feels, than Oedipus, not because Oedipus is an inferior character or Sophocles an inferior playwright, but because Oedipus' true suffering is stylistically stretched out over three plays, so going work-by-work we only recieve a half or a third or what his overall suffering may be, and that third or half is far less than the huge whole that Hamlet gives us in one play.

    As a CYCLE, Oedipus may be King--and if THAT'S the argument, then perhaps he should be placed in the "Best Serial" category, for if that is the argument, that the series of his sufferings in the trilogy ammounts to a huge whole, then he should seem to fit there as it then IS a series (and if that's the argument and he is determined to be a Series/Serial/Cycle, then surely he msut be the greatest, THAT is a fact I won't dispute, nor do I think most would, if we view him like this.)

    But as a PLAY, as ONE WORK, I'll go on record and say ANY of Shakespeare's "big gun" Tragedies, Hamlet, Macbeth, King Lear, Othello, those four (Romeo and Juliet is famous but cannot hold a candle to Oedipus, the same applies to Antony and Cleopatra, Coriolanus just is not as relatable as Oedipus, as much as TS. Eliot adores him and that play, Richard III in this line of reasoning should seem committed to a cycle of its own, and so to seperate it would be to commit the same fallacy, and Richard III as a character and play ALONE is not as good as Oedipus, and Julius Caesar is a great work but neither Casear nor Marc Antony is strong enough to beat out Oedipus) are all superior to ANY of the plays in the Oedipus Cycle BY THEMSELVES, in a play-to-play analysis.

    I'll finally make two last assessments (because I'm already so far in I might as well) and name Iago from Othello The Best Antagonist of All-Time, certainly for the stage, and even in works of literature, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a more worthy candidate...Lucifer from Paradise Lost, perhaps, but other than those two...

    And I'll finally posit that The Best Dialogue/Monologue Line of All-Time should be awarded to...what else?

    "To be or not to be, that is the question..." from Hamlet, for not only having what is INDISPUTABLY the most quoted and known line of literature in the West this side of "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" but for the utter brilliance and perfection of that monologue.

    I don't use that term lightly or often in discussing literature, but I honestly think that's about as perfect a monologue, as good a selection of text you can put togetether as potentially possible, I do not see any way at the moment to top that, do not see any flaws with any of the lines, they're all brilliant, all work, it's a tour de force, a total examination of the human condition--in one monologue, and with SO MANY lines that are not only poignant but also so popular they're part of our cultural awareness as peoples in the West.

    "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy..."
    "The Undiscovered Country..."
    "To suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or To take arms against a sea of troubles..."
    "To die, perchance to dream, aye, there's the rub..."

    And, the line I will unashamedly and forever defend as being The Human Experience Captured In One Line,

    "To be or not to be, that is the question."

    You could have shortened this post and just said: "I love Shakespeare"

  5. #35
    Registered User kelby_lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Macbeth View Post
    I know, I was just saying that all those immortal lines in ONE monologue makes it, for me, the greatest selection of text in history.



    Nice picks, most of them I like...

    But Measure for Measure is a COMEDY...not a dramatic play (but a nice nod to the staged brilliance of Noises Off!)

    I know it is conventionally a comedy but it's normally played as a drama with comic bits. Shakespeare was pretty modern in that not all of his plays are purely comic- they have mixtures of comedy and tragedy.


    It's true that Shakespeare wrote that for hire and for a close male friend of his, the so-called "Lovely Boy."

    However, I don't think that lessens the meaning, he may have written it for hire My point is that this is the first one that it doesn't look like he has written for hire. The sonnets before it are obviously written for hire but this one is the start of the dramatic sonnets., but still...and I don't think the fullest power of it is "You are the prettiest thing ever and when you die, you'll live on here" but rather second portion of that emphasized, "You will live IN HERE [in the narrator's heart and in the poem's body] eternally Yes, that is powerful. It's a repeated theme throughout the sonnets though, so I can't really single it out for that (although it's probably the best phrasing of it), and eternally youthful and beautiful in my mind's eye It's kind of sad though, because it transpired that the love object is not worthy of the praise. It's the fantasy of him that's immortalised, rather than the actual person.."
    My thoughts.

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    For sonnet, I'd have to go with Sonnet - To Science, by Poe. It explores the eternal struggle between science and poetry, between the rational and the emotional, the objective and the subjective. It may give the illusion that Poe was a science hater, but in fact he was a science buff and explored many scientific themes in his works.

  7. #37
    Lord of Dunsinane Lord Macbeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keilj View Post
    You could have shortened this post and just said: "I love Shakespeare"
    You have no idea how often I get that...OK, maybe you do.

    And to an exten that's true, but still, I honestly DO think he's the greatest writer that has yet lived; I'm not one who elevates him to the status of demigod, or worships every work, he wrote his share of bad pieces, too--to be honest, I find most of Romeo and Juliet very fair and it certainly is one of the most overrated pieces in history in terms of the actual textual merit of the play, influence-wise less so, but still not nearly as good as others make it out to be--and I won't even call him a genius, I don't believe in that term at all...

    But while he does have VERY close competition for the honor--Dostoyevsky, Sophocles, Dante, Homer, and many more--I do believe he is the greatest ever, and so it IS a bit hard not to go on about him sometimes...especially in a "Best Ever" thred.
    Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...

  8. #38
    Lord of Dunsinane Lord Macbeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelby_lake View Post
    My thoughts.
    I do agree that Measure For Measure has plenty of dramatic parts, and perhaps even a dramatic plot, but I believe it's tonal strucutre and resolution is comedic, hence my (and it's usual) classification of it as a comedy.

    Shakespeare plays DO contain a mix of comedy and tragedy, regardless of the genre, of course...that's part oif why they're so great, so accessible...I'd best stop here before I continue, give ten pages praising the Bard, and wind up being accused of being a Shakespeare-fiend.
    Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...

  9. #39
    Registered User kelby_lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Macbeth View Post
    I do agree that Measure For Measure has plenty of dramatic parts, and perhaps even a dramatic plot, but I believe it's tonal strucutre and resolution is comedic, hence my (and it's usual) classification of it as a comedy.
    Hence the creation of the genre 'problem plays'. I'm standing by it as a dramatic play because the message is not comic. Although Shakespeare uses the structure of a comedy and there are comic moments in the play, the intent of the play is not to make people laugh.

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    "and I won't even call him a genius, I don't believe in that term at all..."

    You have peaked my interest could you please expand a little more on what you mean by this ?

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    ?????

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    I think you have hijacked the thread talking about literature...

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    Come on Macbeth, I really want to hear your opinions on that, it would be a fascinating debate !

  14. #44
    Lord of Dunsinane Lord Macbeth's Avatar
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    Alright then, why I wouldn't call Shakespeare or Mozart or Einstein or anyone a genius, because I do not believe in the term:

    1. For starters, I'd argue that to call anyone a genius is to, in a sense, deify them, or at least make them appear to be unreachable in their accomplishments, and I believe that this is a horrible way to live and a horrible way to commend someone. When we make the claim "Shakespeare is a genius" we seem to be inferring that he is a cut above the rest, which is fine, but implicit in that remark is the idea that not only is he a cut above the rest but, as "genius" is often connected with the idea of being naturally gifted, that Shakespeare--or whoever bears the title "genius"--is UNTOUCHABLE in their being a cut above the rest, that even if you worked your entire life you could never equal those called a genius. To put what I am saying into perspective, take two people who we would often call "geniuses," Mozart and Beethoven. Let us suppose that Mozart is called a genius and considered untouchable, that there is absolutely no way his level can ever be reached again, and to try to do so is folly--does Beethoven, then, even TRY to write music? Beethoven was influenced by Mozart, he certainly cared about how much the Boy Wonder accomplished, would heve, then, have been put off, or even discouraged, if he felt "I can NEVER match THAT." Consider public schools--too often they teach Shakespeare and teach him incorrectly.

    (And this is coming from someone who is, as has already been established, a Shakespeare fiend...too often they teach the wrong plays of Shakespeare, 95% of kids are NOT ready to fully tackle Hamlet or King Lear when they are middle or high school students, and so they get a poor experience reading and trying to grasp something they simply are not ready for, become frustrated, and are put off the greatest playwright and, possibly, plays in general forever, OR the schools teach Romeo and Juliet, which is ALSO a poor one to teach as THAT play is not only one of Shakespeare's earliest and thus less-polished tragedies, the plot of the play was already a bit cliche in the Bard's day, NOW it is so cliche kids just can't and won't take the play seriously...what makes the play GOOD and BETTER than its plot is the LANGUAGE, the imagery and language that Mercutio, Romeo, and, to a certain extent, Juliet use and call to mind--if you are trying to INTRODUCE Shakespeare and that form of language, which DOES require some getting used to, to someone for the first time, a play which depends heavily upon a good understanding of that styleo of language is the literary equivalent of a swim instructor pushing a first-time swimmer into the deep-end of the ppol, they're just not ready and will drown in the langauge and lose Shakespeare for life. My answer? What would I teach? Macbeth aand/or Titus Andronicus for a tragedy, as both plays are short for Shakespeare, are action-heavy enough so that kids can get through and have at least some understanding of what's going on and what the themes are by just the action alone...they'll be able to get both are Gothic, with the Witches and spells in the former and the gruesome deaths in the latter...they'll be able to grasp the idea of ambition in the former as Lady Macbeth's nagging of Lord Macbeth--oh, great lol--is a relatively modern idea and so it's not archaic, and in the latter the theme of revenge is VERY blatant, first with Tamora causing death to so much of titus' family and then what happens to Lavinia followed by Sweeney Titus' plan...AND both are GREAT around Halloween, which kids love, the former play has Witches and spells and decapitations and kings, and the latter play has rape, murder...yes, basically rape and murder to the nth degree, which is a bit much for schools--but then again, if you're going to teach Hamlet you're dealing with a brother killing a brother to marry his wife and then the son killing everyone and his girlfriend going insame and drowning herself, and if you teach Romeo and Juliet then you have two teens essentially committing suicide together, so any way and any play you pick from Shakespeare that's a tragedy you WILL get some pretty dman dark themes--and kids can stomach them, damnit, so let them try, and let them ease in with action-heavy ones like Macbeth or Titus Andronicus, of which I would personally prefer the former to be taught because the latter IS rather rough around the edges and not quite the Shakespeare we come to know, hence it's better to save that play after a few other tragedies have been taught so you can go back and say "See, this is where he started, this is where Macbeth's gory methods and Hamlet's feigned insanity and King Lear's giving up power and so on all come from." Macbeth is Shakespeare's shortest tragedy, one of his best--I obviously love it, hence the name...though I DO like Hamlet even more, "To be or not to be" and "Tomorrow and tommorow and tomorrow" are #1 and #2 in terms of monologues for me, as you can tell by my signature--is more action-heavy, so the kids don't have to have a PhD in Elizabethan Literature to understand what's going on, and it has WITCHES...PERFECT FOR HALLOWEEN!)

    OK, rant over, we now return you to Lord Macbeth's Discourse on the Disallowance of Genius, already in progress...

    So, aside from once again showing how shamelessly I hope to be able to get a doctorate in English--and make Shakespearean Studies part of my thesis--what was the point of all of that?

    If you raise someone up to a level AND imply that such a level is unattainable, generally people care not to even TRY to reach that level. Again, Mozart was regarded well--or at least well enough that he wasn't totally ignored--in his time, so if Beethoven was told from a young age "Mozart is a GENIUS," with the implication that he (Mozart) had some sort of divine or natural gift that Beethoven could NEVER hope to equal...well, that's wuite a bit of discouragement from quite a young age--does Beethoven even try to write music? And if he does, does he try and copy Mozart the Genius so closely--as he IS a "genius," after all, who wouldn't want to copy that?--that he lacks any style of his own and just produces unoriginal knockoffs of "The Magic Flute" and "The Marriage of Figaro" and the rest of Amadaeus' catalogue?

    Coming back to the idea of Shakespeare and teaching him improperly, elevating him to the level of genius and teaching him in a way that he seems inscrutablie, teaching Hamlet and then feeling so discouraged and irritated that your teacher says you've gotten the play all wrong and missed Hamlet's motives completely...well, not only are you more likely not to read more Shakespeare, and thus will miss out on a great deal of literary fuel that COULD help you reach a plateau of greatness someday, properly harnessed, but you're also more apt to just say "I just don't get it...I must not be any good at this...I'M NO ENGLISH GENIUS."

    NEITHER was Shakespeare.

    Consider how many people endeavour to write poetry today and, intentionally or just unconsciously, copy a style or a writer they LOVE, or that they know is a "genius." They wish to emulate them, to capture that role of genius, they wish to raise themselves up, which is fine, but end up doing so through plagiarism, which is NOT, and leads to inferior works (and I'm aware of the irony of condemning plagiarism and praising Shakespeare in the same post, but bear with me.)

    To call someone a "genius" serves, ultimately, to have an almost religious effect on them within that field, hence my reason for claiming that such a word deifies the person in question. Those taught in the Christian tradition generally don't believe they can be greater than Jesus, and from a religious standpoint, that may be fine and may not be, that's a religious matter and not one for this discussion--but to apply that to LITERATURE, to say "I must humble myself before the Almight Holy Trinity of Peotry, Homer, Dante, and Shakespeare, and I can never be greater than them" discourages originality and effort and encourages emulation to the point of plagiarism, if efofrt is even exerted at all.

    That is my Argument from Discouragement and Emulation.

    My Argument from Practicality:

    2. NOW take Shakespeare (again.) Take Titus Andronicus. It is influenced heavily by the works of Ovid and by Kyd's brutal style. Shakespeare takes these ideas, these influences, and builds, grows...as I've already mentioned, the gore here becomes Macbeth, feigning insanity plays a role in many Shakespeare plays, including Hamlet, a distinguished leader giving up power only to see it fall into the hands of those unworthy and to see himself ruined a la King Lear, and star-crossed lovers as in...well, many of his plays. The language builds, his style builds.

    His GENIUS IS BUILT.

    It is NOT a GIFT, or NATURAL, or DIVINE.

    It is CAUSED.

    Consider--what if Shakespeare never happend across Ovid's work? Or if he never was able to see or read or know of Kyd? Hamlet and Kyd's Hieromimo share a good deal of similarities--murdered family members, revenge plots, putting on a play to expose and avenge said murder--so would we have Hamlet, or even Titus Andronicus, without The Spanish Tragedy?

    Literature is built on influence, and influence is built on CAUSES...NOT the divine.

    Genius is acquiered, NOT given by nature or divine providence.

    Shakespeare BEGINS his career with a play that is about 1/3 Ovid/Roman poetic style, 1/3 Kyd, and 1/3 Shakespeare.

    He ENDS his career with The Tempest, which alludes to other works and ideas, as Shakespeare--and arguably msot if not all good writers--is known to do, but is still a wholly original play.

    He ACQUIRED the ability to do that, it was the result of CAUSES.

    He starts with a great degree of emulation but GROWS OUT OF IT, he is never told these men are geniuses, never told he cannot be as good, Kyd and Ovid were not held to that level, only something like The Holy Bible or, form a philosophical point of view, the works of Aristotle had that sort sway in Shakespeare's day.

    To give an an analogy:

    Suppose that "genius" IS given, that it's like tons of dynamite, waiting to explode with brilliance...

    The carrier of the dynamite STILL needs to come across a match sometime in his or her life, OTHERWISE it all comes to nill.




    Those are my two arguments put briefly, since I do have to go...if you wish to discuss this more, by all means, but for now I must go.

    (Oh--and for a comedy Much Ado About Nothing as the plot is somewhat modern as is the language and it is HILARIOUS...Macbeth and Much Ado About Nothing and the kids will love the Bard, but all this, my ramblings are but "A tale told by and idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.")

    Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow...

  15. #45
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    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Belo Horizonte- Brasil
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    3,309
    Ok, I think after that I will emulate the impact of Shakespeare by using a goatee...

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