Trojan vs. Greek Sympathies

[Virgil]

bluevictim, I will try to find where that quote is about the Trojans being more "civilized." It might take me a bit to find it, but I'll look.

I would like to see that too Vlad. I'm convinced Homer intends to characterize them that way.

[bluevictim]

As well as being the only character to come up to the modern idea of a hero, Hector is the only one who displays what I understand to be arete:- that is all round personal excellence subordinated to the good of his people.
Would these qualities have counted for anything in Homers time? Or is it later, in the time of democracy, that the concept of Arete was formed?

In Homer, the word "arete" was used for public excellence; it referred to qualities by which the value to society of a man (or a woman or a thing) could be measured. I think today we might use the term "marketable quality" to express the basic idea.

The word "arete" does not refer to personal excellence. Virtues like personal integrity or being an affectionate husband are not meant by "arete". In Homer, "arete" referred most often to a man's prowess at fighting and social status. Nor was "arete" subordinated to the good of the people. The wicked suitors in the Odyssey, for example, were also said to possess "arete".

However, it is not the case that personal virtues were counted for nothing just because they weren't referred to by the word "arete". It is clear from Achilles' reply to Odysseus in book 9 that personal integrity and honesty was valued. It is clear from Briseis' lament over Patroclus in book 19 and Helen's lament over Hector in book 24 that kindness was valued. It is clear from Andromache's lament over Hector in book 24 that being an affectionate husband was valued.

bluevictim, I will try to find where that quote is about the Trojans being more "civilized." It might take me a bit to find it, but I'll look.

That would be greatly appreciated!

[JDKennedy]

I didn't find Hector to be especially heroic. He was certainly patriotic and loyal to his homeland, but he only advances on Patroclus once he is wounded by Euphorbus (who only manages to do so once Apollo has blinded Patroclus and shattered his spear). And although he asks Achilles later for proper burial, he has no thought for the corpse of Patroclus, which he wants "to behead with his sharp sword, drag off the trunk and give to the dogs of Troy," (EV Rieu's translation). And in the end, when faced with Achilles, he runs around the walls of Troy several times, only turning to fight when he is tricked into doing so by the gods.
(I've loved reading this thread and would like to see it continue )

[prendrelemick]

There was a thread on that very point somewhere on here, ie that Greek heroes were a load of wimps or something.

It all turns on the definition of Hero.

[Vladimir777]

Hey, guys, sorry I never found that quote about the Trojans being more civlized than the Greeks, but I know I read it somewhere! I know when reading the Iliad a year ago, I certainly sympathized with the Trojans more than the Greeks. I found it somewhat hard to feel for Achilles when he spent half (over half, actually) the book pouting while letting his fellow Greeks be slaughtered in his absence. Though he is clearly a tragic hero, I found Hector to be more tragic.

Anyways, I just finished the Odyssey, which I liked, although I did not find the writing as compelling as in the Iliad. It is true what I've read: that the Odyssey describes the marvelous realistically, and that the Iliad describes realistic things marvellously. I missed those high similes that were abundant in the first epic. I did like parts of the Odyssey, though, especially the Underworld scene (the pathos of Odysseus meeting Achilles, Aias, and especially his dead mother there was excellent) and of course the famous "wanderings" which he tells in story (others have raised good points that it is unclear how much of this is fabricated/exagerrated, since it is told all by the greatest liar of world literature). Unfortunately, a large part of the book was devoted to Odysseus at home in Ithaca, which was a very, very slow buildup to his slaughter of the suitors.

[Virgil]

Hey, guys, sorry I never found that quote about the Trojans being more civlized than the Greeks, but I know I read it somewhere! I know when reading the Iliad a year ago, I certainly sympathized with the Trojans more than the Greeks. I found it somewhat hard to feel for Achilles when he spent half (over half, actually) the book pouting while letting his fellow Greeks be slaughtered in his absence. Though he is clearly a tragic hero, I found Hector to be more tragic.

As in last year's discussion, I pretty much agree with you.

Anyways, I just finished the Odyssey, which I liked, although I did not find the writing as compelling as in the Iliad.

I too am one who feels The Illiad is a greater work. However, ever since Joyce based his novel Ulysses on The Odyssey, the esteem of Homer's second work has risen and possibly overtaken The Illiad. I'm not in that camp.

It is true what I've read: that the Odyssey describes the marvelous realistically, and that the Iliad describes realistic things marvellously

.
I've never heard that before. That's a great way to look at it.

[Vladimir777]

It seems that after a year I've finally found the quote I was talking about that paints the Trojans as being more civilized than the Greeks. I'm pretty sure this was the one that set that notion in my head. Keep in mind this isn't a particularly academic source when it comes to Greek studies, but the book is The Joy of Reading by Charles Van Doren, and it basically is a collection of essays about world literature authors. He says, "Troy was the capital of an empire that encompassed much of what we now call the Middle East....Mainland Greece at this time was probably primitive by comparison with the civlized world that Paris had described to Helen when he wooed her away from her old home and carried her off to a new one." He calls Troy "perhaps the wealthiest city in the Mediterranean world."

What did you guys think about the recurring characters from the Iliad in the Odyssey? One of my favorite parts was when Odysseus encounters the fallen heroes of Troy in the Underworld.

[Virgil]

It seems that after a year I've finally found the quote I was talking about that paints the Trojans as being more civilized than the Greeks. I'm pretty sure this was the one that set that notion in my head. Keep in mind this isn't a particularly academic source when it comes to Greek studies, but the book is The Joy of Reading by Charles Van Doren, and it basically is a collection of essays about world literature authors. He says, "Troy was the capital of an empire that encompassed much of what we now call the Middle East....Mainland Greece at this time was probably primitive by comparison with the civlized world that Paris had described to Helen when he wooed her away from her old home and carried her off to a new one." He calls Troy "perhaps the wealthiest city in the Mediterranean world."

What did you guys think about the recurring characters from the Iliad in the Odyssey? One of my favorite parts was when Odysseus encounters the fallen heroes of Troy in the Underworld.

Not sure who's left from last year. I loved his trip down to the underworld myself. That could have been the best part of The Odyssesy.

[prendrelemick]

The Illiad is the better read (I think.) The odyssey, by being too sophisticated loses the passion and realism of the Illiad. Its more controlled and edited, less raw. Odysses travels beyond the real gritty world and encounters monsters and goddesses. Whereas in the Iliad it's blokes with big spears trying to kill each other.

[prendrelemick]

In fact, thats why I like the slaying of the suitors and the brief battle by his father's vinyard best. He has returned home from those surreal climes and got his feet back on the ground.

[Vladimir777]

The Illiad is the better read (I think.) The odyssey, by being too sophisticated loses the passion and realism of the Illiad. Its more controlled and edited, less raw. Odysses travels beyond the real gritty world and encounters monsters and goddesses. Whereas in the Iliad it's blokes with big spears trying to kill each other.

Yeah, sometimes I felt that all of the narrative complexity of the Odyssey took away from its strength. Especially if you consider that Odysseus's wanderings in books 9-12--easily one of the best parts of the epic, including the Underworld scene we were talking about--could have been largely fabricated or exagerrated by Odysseus, who is known for telling tall tales and sometimes outright lying (in fact quite often--even to his wife and father).

[prendrelemick]

Thats a good point, He receives rich gifts after he tells his story.

[Virgil]

Yeah, sometimes I felt that all of the narrative complexity of the Odyssey took away from its strength. Especially if you consider that Odysseus's wanderings in books 9-12--easily one of the best parts of the epic, including the Underworld scene we were talking about--could have been largely fabricated or exagerrated by Odysseus, who is known for telling tall tales and sometimes outright lying (in fact quite often--even to his wife and father).

I have to disagree here. The Odyssesy is a less complex narrative than The Illiad. The Odyssesy is essentially a picaresque tale while The Illiad is a story of various conflicts and psychological transition. I'm referring to Achilles's growth as a character.

[prendrelemick]

Yes, the Illiad has its intricacies, but its time line is mainly straightforward, whereas the Odyssey jumps about quite a bit. The story within a story device is also a sophistication, as is the flitting of scenes between Ithaca and Odysseus journeying home, and the rising tension it produces. I think the whole construction of the story is more polished than the Illiad.

But that does not make it a better book.

[Virgil]

Yes, the Illiad has its intricacies, but its time line is mainly straightforward, whereas the Odyssey jumps about quite a bit. The story within a story device is also a sophistication, as is the flitting of scenes between Ithaca and Odysseus journeying home, and the rising tension it produces. I think the whole construction of the story is more polished than the Illiad.

But that does not make it a better book.

Those points are true. I never thought about them. Still, The Illiad just feels more complicated because of the intertwining conflicts. Funny, The Illiad feels more polished to me.