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Thread: The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

  1. #256
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    No sooner is the water becoming clear than you muddy it again !

    Yanni believes J.S. Bach, and G.F. Handel, and surgeon Dr Amyand, and the surgeon Antonio Cocchi were all the same person !!! A feat of social engineering and a cultural feat greater than BBC world service radio ?

    Please (at the third time of asking) do you believe G. Cocchi was the son of the above Antonio Cocchi ? You appear to have ignored this question of mine. And without an answer I do not wish to go round and round in the spin dryer.

    As for your 'proofs' concerning JS Bach, they are nothing of the kind.

    You make the most unfounded and generalised statements. But the specifics are all missing. One line 'proofs' with no real evidence. And what, exactly, is the 'proof' Handel and Bach were the same man ? None whatsoever. Their lives and their entire musical output is totally different.

    Try this Yanni. One teaspoon only. Realise that one of these (Bach and Handel) is a manufactured composer and the other is a real composer. Does that help ? Does this sound like Handel to you ?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_...eature=related

    Q. 'And, Robert, what do you consider your greatest achievement in musical research to be' ?

    A. 'Sir, I consider my greatest achievement was to make Yanni listen to a Bach concerto'.





    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach.

    Haven't I?

    You obviously forget my repeated references to JS's first "inventors", "Wieland" (Rousseau-Gioac.Cocchi) and Marpurg(another puzzle), Johann Sebastian Koch, JSBach's "choirprefect" (that's the basic role of Kappelmeister, isn't it?), G.Cocchi/Saint Germain/Giovannini's footprints on Mrs Bach's buchlein, Handel/Bach's 1741 first visit to Berlin (while depressed) etc etc.

    What I did not openly say in previous is my conclusion , based on a multitude of indications all leading to the same end, that Handel/Bach and Dr Aymand/A.Cocchi were one and the same (Gioachino Cocchi/Gluck/Rousseau etc then-1750's-taking over the "healing process").

    Now I did and you are wellcome to provide evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by Musicology; 10-12-2010 at 10:59 AM.

  2. #257
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    Yes I do believe Gioachino Cocchi was closely related to Antonio Cocchi (married not just to Gaetana Debi, Orsola Piombanti and his -third-english wife), propably his son by a fourth "wife" in Prussia or Naples, but alternatively could have been a nephew, so what?

    The contents of my previous have increased in the meantime, absorb them at your leisure and then try to prove me wrong!

    Courage!
    Last edited by yanni; 10-12-2010 at 11:47 AM.

  3. #258
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    OK, so you believe G. Cocchi was 'probably' closely related to Antonio Cocchi (and you give us the usual set of choices).

    When I press you on this point you ask 'So what' ? The 'so what' is you simply do not know. And Yanni, not knowing of the real relationship between A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi 'knows' that J.S. Bach was G.F. Handel. And this is why people find your posts bewildering. You are literally swimming in a sea of probabilities. Why not start off with established facts ?

    How about this one ? It is an established fact Antonio Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with the British government and with other governments of his time. And that G. Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with governments of his own time. Since they were both occultists with high level contacts with governments of their own times they were involved in the same occultism. A occultism which had great influence within those governments and in higher levels of society during their respective times. Whether they had three or twenty aliases.

    And what, exactly, does that have to do with the history of music ? You never tell us. Because, Yanni, somebody had to write the music. And it was not written by A. Cocchi or G. Cocchi. Was it ?

    This leads me to believe A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi were members of an occultist network whose influence was so great in the 18th century they were involved in overseeing the creation of false reputations of various men (including major composers and scientists) as part of their occultist careers.

    Have I said this before ? Yes, I think I have.



    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Yes I do believe Gioachino Cocchi was closely related to Antonio Cocchi (married not just to Gaetana Debi, Orsola Piombanti and his english wife), propably his son by a fourth "wife" in Prussia or Naples, but alternatively could have been a nephew, so what?

    The contents of my previous have increased in the meantime, absorb them at your leisure and then try to prove me wrong!

    Courage!

  4. #259
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    When Handel/Bach/Amyand/A.Cocchi first visited Berlin August 1741 for the founding of the Berlin Opera, Samuel Cocceji/Koch had returned from Silesia and was on his way to become Reichchancellor and Christian Johann Kochius was appointed "Oberhoffprediger am Dom" ( ie Kaiser Fritz wanted to keep his new roman catholic subjects happy!)

    Instead of the usual silly noises, Robert , why don't you finally accept my repeated offer to challenge my timeline on Handel/Bach, now enriched with Dr C.Amyand/A.Cocchi?

    All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

    Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

    Courage!
    Last edited by yanni; 10-12-2010 at 01:04 PM.

  5. #260
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    Yanni,

    Thank you for inviting me to take up your 'poisoned chalice' (oops, extravagant offer !) of showing that G.F. Handel/J.S. Bach/Amyrand and Antonio Cocchi were not always in the same place at the same time. I accept your offer. But before I post to show it is nonsense you might consider the following -

    I have a friend who grows potatoes and carrots, onions and cabbages. No matter how often he plants cabbages they attract butterflies. And if he grows beetroots they always seem to attract ants. He is careful against this of course but the same thing always happens.

    I think we can say the same thing of human history. That wherever there is something worthy taking place we will find things that are unworthy. One could visit a coronation and find notices warning us against pickpockets, for example. Wherever there is reality we will find things not real. So I'm not surprised Cocchis, and Casanovas, and Amyrands and Barons, Counts, Popes, Cardinals, etc. are often extremely interested and have their own people actively pursuing their own agendas when other events more worthy of our attention are happening.

    The opening of the Berlin opera in August 1741 attracted many music lovers from all over Germany. And the Olympic Games in London in 2012 will no doubt attact millions from all over the world. The arrival of visitors to London during 2012 will not prove, however, that Yanni and myself are one and the same person. Not even if we are able to be proved present there. Nor will they prove Yanni, myself and other readers of this thread are one and the same person. Even if all are sufficiently interested in the subject to be present at the 2012 Olympic Games.

    As to your view that J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel, Amyand (who has multiple personality disorder), and Cocchi (who also has multiple personality disorder) were one and the same person (and thus in one time and space always) I will answer you later. So we can see this to be one of your more extreme but harmless exaggerations.

    Berlin Philharmonic Wind Soloists - Tango

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9ba...eature=related


    Regards


    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    When Handel/Bach/Amyand/A.Cocchi first visited Berlin August 1741 for the founding of the Berlin Opera, Samuel Cocceji/Koch had returned from Silesia and was on his way to become Reichchancellor and Christian Johann Kochius was appointed "Oberhoffprediger am Dom" ( ie Kaiser Fritz wanted to keep his new roman catholic subjects happy!)

    Instead of the usual silly noises, Robert , why don't you finally accept my repeated offer to challenge my timeline on Handel/Bach, now enriched with Dr C.Amyand/A.Cocchi?

    All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

    Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?

    Courage!
    ///

    G.F. HANDEL

    1707 -- G.F. Handel arrives in Italy
    1710 -- Handel's first visit to London
    1711 -- First London opera, Rinaldo
    1712 -- Handel’s Second visit to London and remains

    J.S. BACH

    1710 - Birth of Bach's second child, Wilhelm Friedemann, born, 22nd November. (W.F. Bach was therefore conceived around 9 months earlier, in February of 1710, in Weimar).

    //

    1713 - JS Bach visits Weissenfels in February. Birth of his third and fourth children (twins), that same year - Johann Christoph and Maria Sophia, born 23rd February, and died, 23 February and around 13th March respectively. (Conceived around 9 months earlier). Bach competes for organist's post at Halle in December of that same year of 1713.

    //

    Clear ‘proof’ JS Bach and GF Handel must be the same man, yes ??

  6. #261
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    Is that all?

    Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman):

    Handel/Bach is on record as first visiting London sometime around November- December 1710, allowing him to father WH and several more children in Weimar, Feb 1710.

    Same for the twins, born Feb, 1713, ie conceived June-July 1712:

    He is on record, 1712, as Autumn : Receives permission from the Elector of Hanover to return to London "on condition that he return within a reasonable time." Early October : Returns to London for next opera season -- stays with "Mr. Andrews of Barn-Elms" (now Barnes, in Surrey)...

    With regard to his (Bach's) 1713 dates (Febr./Weissenfels, Dec./Halle), there is nothing contradictory either: After Swiney's departure to Italy with the cash of Teseo's first performance Jan 10th, 1713, there is nothing on record indicating GFH stayed behind in London.He IS on record however as GFH is dismissed from Hanoverian post in May whereas on 28th December 1713 Queen Anne grants GFH a pension of £200 per annum.She is suffering from porfyria (dies 1 August 1714) and as such his recall to duty in London is on purely medical grounds, hence "Te deum", October, 1714, was staged only in the year!! http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm

    Consequently, Dr Claudius/Handel/Bach/Cocchi/Amyand was appointed Sergeant-Surgeon (Surgeon in Ordinary) to George I in 1715.

    Try harder next time, Sir Robert, else say goodbye to your Holy Grail!


    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    ///

    G.F. HANDEL

    1707 -- G.F. Handel arrives in Italy
    1710 -- Handel's first visit to London
    1711 -- First London opera, Rinaldo
    1712 -- Handel’s Second visit to London and remains

    J.S. BACH

    1710 - Birth of Bach's second child, Wilhelm Friedemann, born, 22nd November. (W.F. Bach was therefore conceived around 9 months earlier, in February of 1710, in Weimar).

    //

    1713 - JS Bach visits Weissenfels in February. Birth of his third and fourth children (twins), that same year - Johann Christoph and Maria Sophia, born 23rd February, and died, 23 February and around 13th March respectively. (Conceived around 9 months earlier). Bach competes for organist's post at Halle in December of that same year of 1713.

    //

    Clear ‘proof’ JS Bach and GF Handel must be the same man, yes ??
    Last edited by yanni; 10-13-2010 at 09:41 AM.

  7. #262
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    Yanni,

    Thank you for the suggestion I try harder to disprove your quartet theory.

    I aim to disprove it with ever more simple (and not complicated) arguments. Since you are convinced 4 different men were one and the same man. I started doing so in my last post by examining only two of this imaginary 'quartet', J.S. Bach and G.F. Handel. It is not a good idea to multiply entities un-necessarily.

    (Yanni will no doubt become more and more complicated in his arguments. But it does not matter which method of argument he decides to use).

    Here is my second post. I will answer you in ever more simple ways while you will no doubt post in more complicated ways.

    Let me begin by quoting the first sentence of your last post. Here is what you wrote - (and I will quote precisely) -

    ''Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman'')

    In reply to which -

    Yanni, do you not know human births occur around 9 months after conception ? Human births do not take several years. So your first sentence is really an irrelevance. Isn't it ? Nobody is saying GF Handel never had time to visit Weimer between 1707 and 1710. Are they ? Not I nor you. The issue is whether G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. If G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach he must surely have been in Weimar around 9 months before the birth of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. Yes ?

    So your first sentence is meaningless. It is irrelevant.

    We can ask, what evidence, if any, shows G.F. Handel was in Weimar around February of 1710 ?

    I think you should also consider the following -

    G.F.Handel came to London in 1710 and worked for the Hanover government during the transition period and directly for Queen Anne from 1712 onwards. Which is what I have always suggested. (That Handel's musical career was manufactured). Something I have said here numerous times. This view (of Handel being an agent for the court of Hanover in London and a fraud). It is (you surely agree) my view and is even consistent with what has been written by Handel's biographer Jonathan Keates. See here (bottom of the page Item 14) -

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

    As said from the start, few things are real in the 'history of music'. But I encourage you in discovering what is real and what is fiction. Handel did NOT write the music of J.S. Bach. Nor did he even write 'his own'. But you may find this true quicker than we find your proofs of one man being 4 different men. Handel was recruited before he ever left Germany. He was a recruited man in Rome and in Venice. And he arrived in London as a recruited man. He remained a recruited man during his entire London career. That is my view.
    Last edited by Musicology; 10-13-2010 at 09:21 AM.

  8. #263
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    To remind you of the challenge you accepted, here is what it looked like (my post #260) :

    All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

    Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?


    So far you have failed!
    Last edited by yanni; 10-13-2010 at 09:55 AM.

  9. #264
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    And your evidence GF Handel was in Weimar around February 1710 is what, precisely ?

    Early in 1710 Handel left Italy
    Spring of 1710 Handel arrives at the Court of Hanover
    June 16th 1710 Handel is appointed Kapellmeister to George, Elector of Hanover (soon to be King of Britain)
    September 1710 Handel leaves Hanover and arrives in London for the first time

    Thus, if G.F. Handel is the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach (which the birth certificate refuses to say) he, GF Handel, must have been in Weimar between leaving Italy and him arriving in Hanover in the spring of that year of 1710. But there is no evidence GF Handel was in Weimar in 1710. This is a small problem of yours. But Yanni will produce evidence of this for us. Right Yanni ?

    S. Taylor: '''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge, 1906/R)

    Or, to put it another way -

    ‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’

    (Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after Handel had acquired a substantial number of more musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni. The same Cardinal Ottoboni who (with 4 other cardinals) had patronised Handel while he was in Rome and Venice.

    And, of a similar kind -

    Dionigi Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to GF Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though Handel did make a copy of it (now in GB-Lbl) and borrowed copiously from it in his Oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.

    Etc etc etc.

    We must therefore conclude the Milan composer Dionigi Erba (who died in 1730) was still another alias for G.F. Handel/aka J.S. Bach aka akakakakakakakaka, And now we have at least a 'quintet', yes ?

    Have I really failed to make Yanni hear this ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_...eature=related

    Regards

    R



    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    To remind you of the challenge you accepted, here is what it looked like (my post #260) :

    All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!

    Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?


    So far you have failed!
    Last edited by Musicology; 10-13-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  10. #265
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    Silly noises can't cover the sound of your crash.

    Try one more, any date that suits you!
    Last edited by yanni; 10-13-2010 at 04:21 PM.

  11. #266
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    While Yanni is still searching for some evidence of GF Handel being in Weimar in early 1710 (and of being the father of one of the children of JS Bach) here is a short musical interlude -

    J.S. Bach
    Fugue on a Theme in A Major by T. Albininoni
    BWV 950

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU_ti...eature=related

    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Silly noises can't cover the sound of your crash.

    Try one more, any date that suits you!
    Last edited by Musicology; 10-13-2010 at 04:57 PM.

  12. #267
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    Your higher chakras need urgent tuning!

    And now some verses by a worthy bard seeking their music.

    (One could also see it as the first ever poem praising usur..errrr... banking)

    The Ghost by Charles Churchill

    (extract on Amyand)


    The independent Amyand came,

    All burning with the sacred flame

    Of liberty, which well he knows

    On the great stock of slavery grows,

    Like sparrow, who, deprived of mate

    Snatch'd by the cruel hand of Fate,

    From spray to spray no more will hop,

    But sits alone on the house-top ;

    Or like himself, when all alone

    At Croydon, he was heard to groan.

    Lifting both hands in the defence

    Of interest, and common sense ;

    Both hands, for as no other man

    adopted and pursued his plan,

    The left hand had been lonesome quite,

    If he had not held up the right :

    Apart he came, and fix'd his eyes

    With rapture on a distant prize,

    On which, in letters worthy note,

    There, twenty thousand pounds, was Wrote.

    False trap, for credit sapp'd is found

    By getting twenty thousand pound

    Nay, look not thus on me, and stare.

    Doubting the certainty — to swear

    In such a case I should he loath —

    But Perry Gust may take his oath.

    etc etc
    http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...me-3-ruh.shtml
    Last edited by yanni; 10-14-2010 at 10:25 PM.

  13. #268
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    J.S. Bach (1685-1750) fathered 20 children over 2 marriages. Can you please check your timeline for the life of G.F. Handel and name even one of these who may have been fathered by G.F. Handel ? Since the documentary record shows they were fathered by J.S. Bach. With a choice of 20 babies to choose from you can surely come up with a better result than last time, yes ?

    In the meantime -

    BWV 248
    Sanfte soll mein Todeskummer
    Fritz Wunderlich (Tenor)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO2tuSSisRA
    Last edited by Musicology; 10-14-2010 at 03:31 PM.

  14. #269
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    Baron Dimsdale, a reputable doctor, expert inoculator and visitor of Russia, a quaker and a banker too, was one of Handel/Bach/Amyand/Cocchi children (or so it seems to me, anyway).

    Pity Baron Thomas-Hans's biography* is hard to find, even if he was one of the founders of RBS. Must be buried somewhere** under their dusty archives.

    http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki...n%2C_1759-1891

    I just love british poetry, btw, particularly that on musiciens-warmongering banksters-inoculators/spermdonnors-first socialists/liberators-new truth inventors- assasins!

    On this respect, readers are kindly requested to contribute any verse available on Lord Cornwallis' friendhip with the marquis de Chastellux-Cornwall.

    Much obliged!

    *The barony had been conferred by Catherine the Great on Thomas Dimsdale, an ancestor, who had inoculated her son against smallpox. (see "Alexander S.Stroganov")

    **The Dimsdale 18th century archives are incomplete and held at The National Westminster Bank ('Benjamin Collins and the provincial newspaper trade in the eighteenth century' by Christine Y. Ferdinand)
    Last edited by yanni; 10-16-2010 at 08:30 AM.

  15. #270
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    J.S. Bach
    Duet
    Cantata
    BWV 3/5

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGq3J...eature=related

    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Baron Dimsdale, a reputable doctor, expert inoculator and visitor of Russia, a banker too, was one of Handel/Bach/Aymand/Cocchi children (or so it seems to me, anyway).

    Pity Baron Thomas-Hans's biography* is hard to find, even if he was one of the founders of RBS. Must be buried somewhere under their dusty archives.

    http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki...n%2C_1759-1891

    I just love british poetry, btw, particularly that on musiciens-warmongering banksters-inoculators/spermdonnors-first socialists/liberators-new truth inventors- assasins!

    On this respect, readers are kindly requested to contribute any verse available on Lord Cornwallis' friendhip with the marquis de Chastellux-Cornwall.

    Much obliged!

    *The barony had been conferred by Catherine the Great on Thomas Dimsdale, an ancestor, who had inoculated her son against smallpox.

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