The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

[Musicology]

Yanni begins with the famous smokescreen of St Germain. That will attract kids, for sure ! But let's haul them out of that quicksand. The St Germain who (we are told) knows everyone of real influence in the society of his time but nobody is able to tell us anything about him. Isn't this laughable ? I mean, is this what 'education' means ? It's nonsense. And nobody thinks of asking St. Germain's countless contacts within European society who he, St. Germain actually is ! No, of course not. What an obvious thing for them to ask, yes ? It's the stuff of fairy stories and mysticism, isn’t it ? It’s stuff kids and under-achievers would be interested in. Fantasy island. The solution is rather simple. The chattering classes and the nobility of Europe were personally inventing this idea of mysterious man whom they knew about. But the details of whom they wanted to deliberately mystify for the public. That was the entire point !! It explains exactly why St Germain and others of his kind are reported as a ‘mysterious foreigner’ whose arrival has to be publicly announced.

The King of Denmark is said to have an ‘ understanding with him’. He (St Germain) has ‘entry into the cabinets of Princes without his identity being acknowledged by them!’. And so on. It’s laughable. It's actually ridiculous. This is not worthy of anyone's time. Thus, elites of entire nations are clearly playing a game. Supported by the controlled media of that time (itself controlled by the same elites). The myth making continues because myth makers who support the mysterious man want you to believe his mysteriousness. Such things are the bread and butter of fraternities. It’s a propaganda game being played by those reporting on their strange movements. Report after report is not specific and we, consumers of such things are thus mystified ourselves. The mystery is of course being invented by those whose whole aim is to mystify us. And by nobody else. And there will always be fools who love mystification and obfuscation.

It is the Scarlet Pimpernel, the diversion from reality, reported by the mass media of the time and consumed, wholesale by Yanni.

The solution is far more simple. The aristocracies of Europe and their governments were, at this time, under the control of the usual power. The papacy. A papacy which had already launched a new cultural movement. The so-called ‘Enlightenment’. And a networks of fraternity fools now crossed Europe on missions to control/oversee certain aspects of the secularised European cultural movement of the Englightenment. St Germain and Casanova are two such examples. Rousseau and Voltaire others. There were many others. Reports on their movements are essential parts of the mystification process. But they have no relevance to us whatsoever, except to expose the fraudulent nature of official history.

The music industry was important and it needed to be controlled by them, like everything else. The ‘Enlightenment’ needed to be controlled. From the start. So characters such as Casanova and St Germain were recruited and acted as agents for ‘Enlightenment’ ideas. Even within Britain and beyond the Holy Roman Empire. Surrounded, of course, by tales of mystification. Appointed to high places as roving ambassadors of their manufactured culture and moving freely with the Romanist nobility of that time. There is really nothing mysterious about it. Venetian occultism was already deeply implanted within Germany, England, Denmark and elsewhere. So was Freemasonry (which emerged from it). And St Germain, Casanova, and others were its roving agents. This is why they were the gossip of the time and vagueness and obfuscation was its sole purpose. If the role of such men could be mystified (as we see in these reports) they can and do divert us from what is really happening.

But this has nothing to do with music. It has everything to do with gullible men and women. A smokescreen to obscure the fact that musical and cultural reputations were being falsified deliberately across Europe on a wholesale level. With the career assistance of St Germain, Casanova, and the usual fools of its propaganda. Inventing entire careers as we see with men such as Handel. And even (in the case of Yanni) telling us G.F. Handel was J.S. Bach !

St. Germain is (according to Yanni) a composer. He is also a philosopher, an alchemist, a sage, and is superhuman. Documentary 'proof' says so. (Though this is exactly what such documents of St Germain the 'composer' were manufactured to convince us of). St Germain is nothing, in reality, but a roving rogue, a fraud and a product of the usual ruling elite bloodlines of Europe.

Independent of his sideshow (hidden by the British Empire in league with Rome and other interests) was reality itself. The lives and musical careers of countless real men. Most of whom were deliberately ignored by details of the myth making careers of the fraternal St Germain and his occultist accomplices of Rome and Venice. Aided and abetted by later myth makers of the same kind such as Lorenzo da Ponte and others who, within a century, would create with minimal cross-examination the ‘history of music’ - dominated from the start by manufactured heroes, to the exclusion of reality itself. As usual.

Will Man ever grow beyond lying to himself in the name of reality ? Century after century. We should laugh at these giant intrigues of pseudo-musicology and the manufacture of musical icons. All done in the name of the academic and cultural world. Reality is more interesting. The buffoons have had their time. We should humour them and appeal to their sense of honour.

They do have some idea of what honour is, don't they ? The question is whether an entire industry can grow beyond the corporation and the fraternity ? Let's invite pseudo-musicologists and corporate slaves of 'music history' to rejoin the human race.

JS Bach
Concerto
BWV 1057/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2uCn...eature=related

///

[yanni]

Courtesy of Dr David F.C.Wright (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/j-c-bach.pdf) mainly, the previous 1761-63 timeline has been enriched, enough so in fact to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that JCBach, Gioachino Cocchi and the Queens backstair librarian and JSBach editor Nicolay were one and the same.

Hence:

(Items of questionable validity in italics)

Late 1760 timeline summary:

20.9.60 PMHennin writes to van Swieten from Warsaw. The young Van Swieten also posted in Warsaw about that time. (PMHennin's brother -de Beaupre- resides in Versailles in past August-their letter of August 10th,1760).
10-15.10.60 Gluck is in Vienna for his Tetide, his Serenata written on the occasion of Crown Prince Joseph's first marriage. Hasse also moves to Vienna about that time (to settle for the next two years, returning to Dresden in 1763)
?.11.60 Kaiser Frederic writes a letter in code to the Marquis d’Argens from Meissen.
?.11.60 L'Abbe Autoroche leaves Paris for Russia
26.12.60 JCBach’s opera Artaserse premiered in Turin

Jan 1761 to Jul 1763 Timeline (abbreviated)-Enriched version.

(new input in bold)

?.2.1761 A temporary cease fire agreement between Prussia and Russia is extended to May 27.

7.2.61 : Gluck's Le Cinesi (libr by Metastasio) premiers in Saint Petersburg, Bolsoi.

7.2.61 Cocchi’s*Tito Manlio premiers in London (KT).

10.2.61 Pierre Michel Hennin*is in Warsaw (Hennin a Sainte Foix, Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761)

18.2.61 François-André Philidor’s*opera Le Jardinier et son seigneur premiers in Paris

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi visits Vienna.

10.4.61 Abbe Chape Auteroche , CASSINI's protege, arrives in Tobolsk to observe an astronomical phenomenon.

9.5.61. Caspar Anton von Belderbusch*appointed president of Kurköln (Bonn-Mannheim, roman catholic, heavily influenced by France eversince 1715).

29.5.61 Baron Alexander Stroganov* becomes a Count of the Holy Roman Empire.,

16.6.61 Le chevalier de Chasot à Frédéric, Lübeck.Le comte de Saint-Germain est passé par ici pour aller commander l'armée danoise;

17.7.61 Sterlitz: "A" brit Colonel David Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay*to attend his future Queen.

23.7.61 Giessmannsdorf, Frederick of Prussia writes to J.H.Cocceji*

? 9.61 "One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*"

8.9. 61 JCBach: Ode on the Auspicious arrival and nuptials of Queen Charlotte chamber cantata performed.

13.10.61 Cocchi’s Alessandor nell'Indie premiered in London( KT)

17.10.61 Calzabiggi-Durazzo*-Gluck's* Don Juan Don Juan (ballet), Vienna.

4.11.61 JCBach: Catone in Utica, San Carlo, Napoli

9.12.61 Gluck* Le Cadi dupe, Wien ( B)

2.1.62: Cocchi is in London directing ‘Tolomeo” (KT)

5.1.62 Frederic "The great event which snatched him from destruction was the death of the Russian empress"

20.1.62 JCBach:Alessandro ne’ll Indie,San Carlo, honouring the King of Spain for his birthday.

28.1.62. Monsieur de La Dixmerie* is in Paris ("...(22), coopérateur de l’abbé de La Porte, passe aussi au Mercure pour la partie des contes...")

March 23 to April 5th 62 French Record Office of Foreign Affairs correspondence between the Duc de Choiseul and Comte d’Affy on a Saint-Germain who “is again in Holland under assumed names, that he has purchased an estate in Guelders and suggests that he is making dupes of people, with chemical secrets, in order to earn a living” and that he then returned “back to Harwich and warned to quit the English shores. He was now thought to be on his way to Berlin”. (Mitchell correspondence)

24.4.62 Tszar Peter III signs a peace treaty with Frederick of Prussia.

3.6.62 Bettlern, Frederick of Prussia gives his instructions to J.H.Cocceji from his headquarters.

7.1762 Fighting alone in the east, the Austrians were soundly defeated in the Battle of Burkersdorf (July, 1762). The French, too, had suffered severe reverses. (Note by Yanni from memory: Saint Germain took a questionable part in the battle)

?7.62 Catherine, supported by the Imperial Guard, overthrows Peter and becomes Catherine II. Peter III dies while held prisoner by the Orlovs. Catherine denies complicity. Graf Gregor Orloff wrote to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Anspach that the Count (Comte de Saint Germain) “played a great part in their revolution” and helped set Catherine II on the throne.

20.7.62 Frederick Nicolay is appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte (!!).

5.10.62. Gluck, Orfeo ed Euridice, Wien( B)

19.2.63 JCBach* opera Orione was given its premiere in London . (In 1764 JC was appointed music master to the Queen.)

7.5.63 JCBach's Zanaidi. London ("Then there was trouble" writes the good doctor, propably troubled by lack of London info for his hero everafter.)

14.5.63 Gluck: Bologna, Il trionfo di Clelia

22.7.63 Potsdam,”Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres”.

* Persons marked by * have alll been already identified in other threads as aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, aka Comte de Saint Germain. P.M.Hennin in particular has been also identified as Yanni's ancestor. There were two Hennins, the afore mentioned and a brother "Hennin de Beaupre".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thankfull for the good Doctor's contribution, Yanni is still studying his article along with http://www.accessmylibrary.com/artic...rt-london.html, focusing on the famous Mozart London visit, 1764-65, to further improve and clarify the identities and actions of snowwhite-lutheran-Johann Sebastian's manufacturers! Ceasar Koch of Post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 will be brought to action again!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

Thanks for the discussion. Yanni is definitely not the same man as Robert - and vice-versa. Although the timeline suggests otherwise.

Here is some more music by G.F. Handel, alias J.S. Bach, father of J.C. Bach, also known as..... alias, son of...., alias.... that well known cousin of Cocchi, aka.... father of.... and all, of course, the same person.

In a world of imitations and counterfeits we can be glad they do not completely obscure reality.

Concerto BWV 1060
3rd Movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhY0...eature=related

///

Courtesy of Dr David F.C.Wright (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pdfs/j-c-bach.pdf) mainly, the previous 1761-63 timeline has been enriched, enough so in fact to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that JCBach, Gioachino Cocchi and the Queens backstair librarian and JSBach editor Nicolay were one and the same.

Hence:

(Items of questionable validity in italics)

Late 1760 timeline summary:

20.9.60 PMHennin writes to van Swieten from Warsaw. The young Van Swieten also posted in Warsaw about that time. (PMHennin's brother -de Beaupre- resides in Versailles in past August-their letter of August 10th,1760).
10-15.10.60 Gluck is in Vienna for his Tetide, his Serenata written on the occasion of Crown Prince Joseph's first marriage. Hasse also moves to Vienna about that time (to settle for the next two years, returning to Dresden in 1763)
?.11.60 Kaiser Frederic writes a letter in code to the Marquis d’Argens from Meissen.
?.11.60 L'Abbe Autoroche leaves Paris for Russia
26.12.60 JCBach’s opera Artaserse premiered in Turin

Jan 1761 to Jul 1763 Timeline (abbreviated)-Enriched version.

(new input in bold)

?.2.1761 A temporary cease fire agreement between Prussia and Russia is extended to May 27.

7.2.61 : Gluck's Le Cinesi (libr by Metastasio) premiers in Saint Petersburg, Bolsoi.

7.2.61 Cocchi’s*Tito Manlio premiers in London (KT).

10.2.61 Pierre Michel Hennin*is in Warsaw (Hennin a Sainte Foix, Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761)

18.2.61 François-André Philidor’s*opera Le Jardinier et son seigneur premiers in Paris

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi visits Vienna.

10.4.61 Abbe Chape Auteroche , CASSINI's protege, arrives in Tobolsk to observe an astronomical phenomenon.

9.5.61. Caspar Anton von Belderbusch*appointed president of Kurköln (Bonn-Mannheim, roman catholic, heavily influenced by France eversince 1715).

29.5.61 Baron Alexander Stroganov* becomes a Count of the Holy Roman Empire.,

16.6.61 Le chevalier de Chasot à Frédéric, Lübeck.Le comte de Saint-Germain est passé par ici pour aller commander l'armée danoise;

17.7.61 Sterlitz: "A" brit Colonel David Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay*to attend his future Queen.

23.7.61 Giessmannsdorf, Frederick of Prussia writes to J.H.Cocceji*

? 9.61 "One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*"

8.9. 61 JCBach: Ode on the Auspicious arrival and nuptials of Queen Charlotte chamber cantata performed.

13.10.61 Cocchi’s Alessandor nell'Indie premiered in London( KT)

17.10.61 Calzabiggi-Durazzo*-Gluck's* Don Juan Don Juan (ballet), Vienna.

4.11.61 JCBach: Catone in Utica, San Carlo, Napoli

9.12.61 Gluck* Le Cadi dupe, Wien ( B)

2.1.62: Cocchi is in London directing ‘Tolomeo” (KT)

5.1.62 Frederic "The great event which snatched him from destruction was the death of the Russian empress"

20.1.62 JCBach:Alessandro ne’ll Indie,San Carlo, honouring the King of Spain for his birthday.

28.1.62. Monsieur de La Dixmerie* is in Paris ("...(22), coopérateur de l’abbé de La Porte, passe aussi au Mercure pour la partie des contes...")

March 23 to April 5th 62 French Record Office of Foreign Affairs correspondence between the Duc de Choiseul and Comte d’Affy on a Saint-Germain who “is again in Holland under assumed names, that he has purchased an estate in Guelders and suggests that he is making dupes of people, with chemical secrets, in order to earn a living” and that he then returned “back to Harwich and warned to quit the English shores. He was now thought to be on his way to Berlin”. (Mitchell correspondence)

24.4.62 Tszar Peter III signs a peace treaty with Frederick of Prussia.

3.6.62 Bettlern, Frederick of Prussia gives his instructions to J.H.Cocceji from his headquarters.

7.1762 Fighting alone in the east, the Austrians were soundly defeated in the Battle of Burkersdorf (July, 1762). The French, too, had suffered severe reverses. (Note by Yanni from memory: Saint Germain took a questionable part in the battle)

?7.62 Catherine, supported by the Imperial Guard, overthrows Peter and becomes Catherine II. Peter III dies while held prisoner by the Orlovs. Catherine denies complicity. Graf Gregor Orloff wrote to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Anspach that the Count (Comte de Saint Germain) “played a great part in their revolution” and helped set Catherine II on the throne.

20.7.62 Frederick Nicolay is appointed page of the backstairs to Queen Charlotte (!!).

5.10.62. Gluck, Orfeo ed Euridice, Wien( B)

19.2.63 JCBach* opera Orione was given its premiere in London . (In 1764 JC was appointed music master to the Queen.)

7.5.63 JCBach's Zanaidi. London ("Then there was trouble" writes the good doctor, propably troubled by lack of London info for his hero everafter.)

14.5.63 Gluck: Bologna, Il trionfo di Clelia

22.7.63 Potsdam,”Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres”.

* Persons marked by * have alll been already identified in other threads as aliases of Gioachino Cocchi, aka Comte de Saint Germain. P.M.Hennin in particular has been also identified as Yanni's ancestor. There were two Hennins, the afore mentioned and a brother "Hennin de Beaupre".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thankfull for the good Doctor's contribution, Yanni is still studying his article along with http://www.accessmylibrary.com/artic...rt-london.html, focusing on the famous Mozart London visit, 1764-65, to further improve and clarify the identities and actions of snowwhite-lutheran-Johann Sebastian's manufacturers! Ceasar Koch of Post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 will be brought to action again!

[yanni]

The important role of ladies in the life and career of an unduly frivolous, roman-catholic London Bach, son of JSBach no doubt!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Signora Colomba Mattei, director of King's Theater lures young Bach to London......

His 3‐act opera Artaserse was prod. at Turin in 1760 , followed by Catone in Utica in Naples the same year and Alessandro nell'Indie in 1762 . These events were regarded in Milan as unduly frivolous, and Bach accepted offer from Signora Mattei, dir., King's Th., London, to succeed Cocchi as composer to the opera. His first London opera, Orione, prod. 1763 .

Read more: Johann Christian Bach Biography - (b Leipzig, 1735 ; d London, 1782 ), Artaserse, Catone in Utica http://arts.jrank.org/pages/17887/Jo...#ixzz11Cc81auJ and 1785 first ever appearance of baron Munchhausen in print http://www.wienerzeitung.at/Desktopd...ter=A&cob=7725




....read all about it in next!

[Musicology]

Every British monarch before and since Henry 8th (including himself) has been a private, practicing Roman Catholic. (But don't tell the children and never admit this in the history textbooks. It would ruin the old story of protestants 'perscuting' all those who were not). (A loyal Roman monarchy always supported loyal by an aristocracy who looked back to the papally approved invasion and occupation of William the Conqueror in 1066 for the fact of their own English estates and privileges). FACT. And, contrary to popular myth, Henry 8th at no time renounced his Roman Catholic faith. FACT. This too contrary to popular stories. The single exception to this millenium of hypocrisy appearing to be Elizabeth 1st.

And, speaking of humbug and hypocrisy in high places, what is this ? From the Restoration of Charles 2nd (after the Commonwealth period) in 1660. (When the streets of London were artificially packed by specially invited loyal Romanists of the British aristocracy to welcome the arrival from France of a new king ! How touching !!! Giving the impression England did not want their own independence. Preceded by the secret Treaty of Dover. (They don't teach that also in history classes). And, surprise, surprise, what did that consist of ? The 'conversion' to Rome of the same King Charles 2nd. That's unusual isn't it ? Hidden from English public knowledge, of course. It mattered in those days, didn't it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Dover

Humbug and hypocrisy from the elites of the Vaticanised Europe and their loyal servants and resident stooges in Britain. Some things never change. You have to laugh at these games of a state/church marriage. Supported loyally by the usual fraternities of course. Now you will tell us the music scene in London was not dominated by Venetians, Romanists and supporters of his papal majesty. (Cough, cough !).

Speaking of something not Roman, nor falsified, nor frivolous -

J.S. Bach
Sonata BWV 1031

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1_B...eature=related

Ah, yes, Music !! How did YOU survive ???

The important role of ladies in an unduly frivolous, roman-catholic London Bach, son of JSBach no doubt!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Signora Colomba Mattei, director of King's Theater lures young Bach to London......

His 3‐act opera Artaserse was prod. at Turin in 1760 , followed by Catone in Utica in Naples the same year and Alessandro nell'Indie in 1762 . These events were regarded in Milan as unduly frivolous, and Bach accepted offer from Signora Mattei, dir., King's Th., London, to succeed Cocchi as composer to the opera. His first London opera, Orione, prod. 1763 .

Read more: Johann Christian Bach Biography - (b Leipzig, 1735 ; d London, 1782 ), Artaserse, Catone in Utica http://arts.jrank.org/pages/17887/Jo...#ixzz11Cc81auJ and 1785 first ever appearance of baron Munchhausen in print http://www.wienerzeitung.at/Desktopd...ter=A&cob=7725




....read all about it in next!

[yanni]

The usual idiotic chorus by Snowwhite distorting history:

The Act of 1701 that brought the german speaking Hannoverians to the british throne, barred relative access to any non-protestant british subject everafter and strongly discriminated against them in many other ways as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Ascendancy

The Seven Years' War (1756-1763), with Prussia and Great Britain fighting the alliance of Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, and Saxony, defined the lifes and the somewhat uncertain and complicated carreers of the heroes of this thread, such as the triple-faced JS Handel/Bach/Koch and the thousand- faced comte de Saint Germain-Cocchi-Koch.

From: The Second Little Clavier Book For Anna Magdalena Bach - 1725
By Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) or perhaps his chorrpräfect Johann Sebastian Koch, geboren 1689 in Ammern bei Mühlhausen und gestorben 1757 als Cantor in Schleiz or, most propably, by Handel, all brilliant-white Lutheran pipesmokers, honouring lyrics thru their music: Singspiel? Sounds like an early Joan Baez anyhow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fyg_147jd4

So oft ich meine Tobacks-Pfeife,
Mit gutem Knaster angefüllt,
Zur Lust und Zeitvertreib ergreife,
So gibt sie mir ein Trauerbild-
Und füget diese Lehre bei,
Daß ich derselben ähnlich sei.

Mühlhausen does have a certain resonant similarity to Münchausen, doesn't it!!

Every British monarch before and since Henry 8th (including himself) has been a private, practicing Roman Catholic. (But don't tell the children and never admit this in the history textbooks. It would ruin the old story of protestants 'perscuting' all those who were not). (A loyal Roman monarchy always supported loyal by an aristocracy who looked back to the papally approved invasion and occupation of William the Conqueror in 1066 for the fact of their own English estates and privileges). FACT. And, contrary to popular myth, Henry 8th at no time renounced his Roman Catholic faith. FACT. This too contrary to popular stories. The single exception to this millenium of hypocrisy appearing to be Elizabeth 1st.

And, speaking of humbug and hypocrisy in high places, what is this ? From the Restoration of Charles 2nd (after the Commonwealth period) in 1660. (When the streets of London were artificially packed by specially invited loyal Romanists of the British aristocracy to welcome the arrival from France of a new king ! How touching !!! Giving the impression England did not want their own independence. Preceded by the secret Treaty of Dover. (They don't teach that also in history classes). And, surprise, surprise, what did that consist of ? The 'conversion' to Rome of the same King Charles 2nd. That's unusual isn't it ? Hidden from English public knowledge, of course. It mattered in those days, didn't it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Dover

Humbug and hypocrisy from the elites of the Vaticanised Europe and their loyal servants and resident stooges in Britain. Some things never change. You have to laugh at these games of a state/church marriage. Supported loyally by the usual fraternities of course. Now you will tell us the music scene in London was not dominated by Venetians, Romanists and supporters of his papal majesty. (Cough, cough !).

Speaking of something not Roman, nor falsified, nor frivolous -

J.S. Bach
Sonata BWV 1031

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue1_B...eature=related

Ah, yes, Music !! How did YOU survive ???

[Musicology]

Yanni writes of .

'' The Act of 1701 that brought the german speaking Hannoverians to the british throne, barred relative access to any non-protestant british subject everafter and strongly discriminated against them in many other ways as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Ascendancy''

Complete nonsense !! You are 'playing to the gallery', aren't you Yanni ? In the case of Rome they imposed their monarchy, their monopoly of rule on England and on entire nations, plus their dogmas, their ruthless, enforceable, brutal regimes on mankind. Everywhere they went. They invented a marriage of church and state. From 381 AD onwards. And even handed out land estates across western Europe known as the 'Donations of Constatine' to bring their own loyal kings to power. Didn't they ? This for over 1,000 years. And when their own giant land fraud was finally exposed to be based on a pious forgery (by Valla and later by Martin Luther of Germany) this fact was conveniently forgotten. All of this is fact, from the time of Augustine of Hippo up until the Ustashi and the Vatican alliance with the Third Reich. And who wrote the Patriot Act ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

It was the papacy who ORDERED ALL living in England to disobey the law of the land. In 1570. Under penalty of excommunication. Want the documentary proof ? Here from one of 204 surviving documents which say so. Read it carefully.

Do you notice the following -

We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.

http://www.tudorhistory.org/primary/papalbull.html

How is that for dogmatic and intolerant tyranny ? Quick ! We better supress it !!

The first loyalty of a Roman Catholic is and has always been to a foreign power. The Vatican State IS A FOREIGN POWER ISN'T IT YANNI ? That's the problem. And England knew this. It's still true today. It was never at any time illegal to be a Roman Catholic in England but it WAS unlawful for a man whose first loyalty was the dogmas of the church of Rome to be a leader in this country. Show us differently. When was it illegal to be a Roman Catholic in English history. Just tell us when ?? No answer. As usual. Fair and reasonable, no ? Because the papacy here in 1570 was ordering the entire nation (Catholics and non-Catholics) to disobey the laws of the land.

As for the monarchies of England, ALL were Romanist. In private. That was a condition of the entire monarchy. And had been 'in perpetuity' ever since Norman times. You do know this, don't you ? But the illusion was created otherwise. By politicians.

You speak of the German 'protestant' kings of England. Hogwash ! Here is the first paragraph of the Treaty of Versailles (1783) signed by the allegedly 'protestant' King George 3rd. -


''It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences''.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Let's agree on one thing Yanni. You write the fiction and I will produce in reply the documentary facts. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to believe historical and indisputable fact.

J.S. Bach
Cantata 147
Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wraO_FOpFJ4

(what does that mean, in German ?)

Heart and Mouth and Deed and Life (No room for hypocrisy there, is there ?).

Don't be ignorant. LISTEN TO IT !!!!!!!! Then dance.

LOL !!!!

[yanni]

"Johann Christian Bach – the queen's professor – put the little Mozart on his knees and played some chords, then the child continued, and thus, playing in turn, they played a whole sonata with a marvellous precision.” Nissen

...is the only "evidence" of the Mozarts meeting JCBach in London, 1764-1765 and, by now, even our one and only Count Snowwhite should be able to appreciate how valid such evidence is.

Nissen-Mozart, 8years old at the time, may be excused for a memory lapse or his inability to distinguish between JCBach (then-1764-65-allegedly at his forte in London) and Cocchi but the fact is Leopold Mozart, having in his list of contacts-to-be Cocchi only (remaining allegedly in London's backstage after his replacement by JCBach who took over with Abel Mme Cornely's establishment in Soho Square) never records meeting any of the aforementioned three (Cocchi, JCBach and de Nicolay) as from their arrival (23 April 1764) to the end of same year, thus deciding against attending Abel's (only) concerts to safeguard his childrens morals from bad influences.
(New light on the Mozart's London visit: a private concert with Manzuoli. Music & Letters| May 01, 1995 | Woodfield, Ian)

There never was a JCBach, you see, or a de Nicolay(the queen's professor?), both coverstories for Cocchi, and the Mozarts did not meet him in London (except perhaps only briefly, shrtly before Xmas 1764*)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any well sourced evidence to the contrary will be wellcomed and handsomely rewarded!

PS Pick up your argument with Wikipedia and your Seven indoctrinated dwarfs, Robert, this thread is on Bach-Nobach!

*PMHennin returns to Paris 26th December 1764, travelling by ship from Saint Petersburg propably.

[Musicology]

Why add to what is already as clear as daylight ? You make the most appalling generalisations and have no shame in being torn to pieces over and over again by the inconvenient facts of history. The question is this. Can anything be more real than reality ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jFxe...eature=related

[yanni]

That's how they* cover up (partially only) the "JCBach" fairy tale:

The King's theater was run by Colomba Mattei and Joseph Trombetta (ehhmmm!) "late 1750's and early 1760's. They engaged G.Cocchi and later JCCBach but lost money and abandoned the field to the violinist Giardini...whose management proved a fiasco in its one season (1763-64)...From 1765 to 1778 the company was owned and operated by a shifting group of outside investors..."

In other words: "JCBach" never received any Trombetta-Mattei invitation, or in any case never presented his "Orione" himself in 1763,under Giardini who fiascoed and went bankrupt(with Cocchi missing from London long before) and, if any private concerts were given at all at Cornelly's by Abel, they were deemed unfit by Leopold Mozart who never met Cocchi/JCBach 1764 or 1765. Cocchi was in other diplomatic missions then and thereafter as well(!).

As JCBach (and as Gluck-Haydn too) he reappeared for a while at KT again in the late 70's to then fall sick, die bankrupt and be buried in a massgrave in 1782. Allegedly!!!

And naturally Mozart-Nissen covers up for him in his "Mozart" whatever and so do all his,lutheran anglosaxon and "secular" french, patrons, friends and countless offsprings(but one) while also ruling their freemarket creation eversince.

Who was Gioachino Cocchi? Judging from his writing in Mme Koch/Bach's buchlein and his exceptional behaviour and characteristics, he was most propably the result of Antonio Cocchi's visiting his Koch relatives on his way to England, 1724, picking him up on his way back, 1726 to then raise him himself when there, or else to the care of nannies and private tutors, as reflected on Rousseau's own writings on the merits of one to one education.

Sieg Heil!

PS The offer to reward any reader proving otherwise is still valid. Handicapped members of Snowhite's all white brotherhood should not hesitate to accept the invitation as well.


*"Italian Opera in Late Eighteenth-century London: The King's Theatre ..." by Curtis Alexander Price,Judith Milhous,Robert D. Hume.

This thread lists #1 in about 20000 when googling for "Bach variations".

This is your chance to fame and glory Robert: It's now or never, there is no tommorow!

(In memory of Elvis and Dean)

[Musicology]

This is Yanni's chance for fame and glory also.

I agree with you the present is what counts. We do what we can.

This thread lists #1 in about 20000 when googling for "Bach variations".

This is your chance to fame and glory Robert: It's now or never, there is no tommorow!

(In memory of Elvis and Dean)

[yanni]

Ofcourse it's the present that counts, Count, and as a declared musicologist, expert on Mozart and fond of JSBach, I do believe that the subject of 8 year old Mozart being tutored by JCBach/Abel 1764-5 in London, offers a great opportunity to you in particular:

This is how a Mr Garry Smith treats the subject in his Abel elegy at Mozartforum , contradicting Nissen's word:

Fourteen days prior to Handel's death, Abel announced his arrival in London with his first concert on 27 March 1759*.....In a short period of time, he was admitted to English society, then received the royal privilege to print his own music in London, and finally was named to the post of Royal Chamber Musician to Queen Charlotte......
Linking up with Johann Christian Bach...they planned to produce a series of concerts, featuring both of them as performers playing (mostly) their own works....Originally planned as just a series of concerts for the year 1765, these public subscription concerts (the Bach-Abel Concerts) gained great renown and became a yearly musical event from 1765 to 1782.....While it has always been noted that Mozart was one of the first independent entrepreneurs in music, it can be seen that Abel was likely amongst THE first, and more successful, to boot. Certainly things were going well enough that by the 1770's he was able to spend considerable time in Paris every year doing business, as well as relaxing.

As displaced Germans, Bach and Abel offered opportunities to other foreign musicians coming to London to get established, either as performers at the concerts, or as published composers via Abel's publishing set-up. So, when the Mozart family arrived on tour in London, it may have been Bach that the young Mozart bonded to, but Abel was the one instrumental in providing contacts and helping Leopold with the business of setting up concerts and musical displays. As well, it should be noted that Wolfgang copied out Abel's Symphony Opus 7 No. 6 for closer study. Hence, for decades this work was believed to be by Mozart, so well did it accord with the young Wolfgang's style. Or, of course, did young Mozart's style derive from the older Abel, who was really a direct contemporary of Leopold rather than that of Wolfgang?

Is there any evidence whatsoever, other than "music for sale" publications by "Abel" that there ever was one concert given by Abel (or even allegedly absent JCBach) during 1764-1765?

OR that there ever existed a real "Abel" besides the penname/alias?

After crossing out Cocchi, JCBach and De Nicolay, you see,this cursed curiosity of mine made me google for "Leopold Mozart Abel" this morning and all I came out with were studies by various colleagues of yours trying to figure out the strong Gluck, Haydn, JCBach etc influences in Mozart's works , some via "Abel", such as Mozart's third symphony identified as Symphony No. 6 by Carl Friedrich Abel, copied and possibly re-orchestrated by Mozart in London, as an exercise.

Otherwise the search did not produce ANY EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel", WHATSOEVER.

Have you ever searched for such yourself?

*Cocchi: Divertimenti, Per Musica Vocale, ed Istrumentale, a Voce Sola, e a Due, da potersi eseguire con Accompagnamenti, e senza: Come ancora per uso di varie sorti d'Istrumenti a solo, a due, e a tre. Dedicati All'Illustrissimo Signore Humphry Morice Esqr. Londra: [s.n.], 1759. Oblong folio. [iii (title, dedication)], 72pp. Disbound. Three black lines down fore-edges. Dedication leaf is dated "1, Marzo, 1759".

This is Yanni's chance for fame and glory also.

I agree with you the present is what counts. We do what we can.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You really need to stand back from your posts, take a deep breath, and reconsider. You are missing the entire point.

The music industry has definitely invented its own 'history'. That includes a 'history' of entire series of musical 'concerts' which never took place. Let me repeat that. It includes entire series of 'concerts' which never actually took place. Because Cocchi, JC Bach, Abel, Haydn, Mozart and others were ACTORS in a game of 'musical tours' and 'concerts'. So were their 'managers'. That is fact number 1. Don't worry about Abel. He was real. And yes, he wrote music that has been attributed to Mozart. By design. That was normal for them. It was common. It justified their existence within the music scene of its time.

When Joseph Haydn came to England he is credited with giving lots of chamber concerts. Which are also fiction. JC Bach/Abel's concerts are also nonsense. So are those of Salomon/Josef Haydn on their two later visits to England. And so were the series of Mozart piano concerto concerts supposedly given in Lent 1784 in Vienna to over 100 'subscribers'.

Does this surprise you ? It doesn't surprise me at all. The official history of music is built on individualistic legends/fictions. It needs those legends of huge popular success to maintain its status. And yes, Abel supplied various musical works that were credited to W.A. Mozart. So did many others. (Including the early symphony to which you refer). JC Bach had joined part of the musical mafia that had years earlier produced the high profile careers of Handel. Which would finally produce those of Haydn and Mozart. It was a fraternity. A business. An industry. But Abel was a real composer. So were dozens of others who produced works for whoever needed them.

One was working for the glory of man. The other was working for the glory of God.

J.S. Bach
Chorus
Cantata 161/5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7ke8...eature=related

and -

J.S. Bach
Chorus
Cantata 19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bauP6...eature=related

[yanni]

You confirm that there is NO EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel" WHATSOEVER!

PS Are you referring to the same JSBach who was appointed 'Composer to the Royal Court Capelle' (roman catholic), Dresden, 1837?

[Musicology]

NO, I am not 'confirming' no contact between Abel and the Mozarts. I am confirming the very opposite !!! How can you possibly be so confused on so many simple issues ? I am confirming actual/real contact between Abel and the Mozarts in respect of the symphony you know Mozart claims to be his own. The one you just reminded us about !!!! Which was given to the Mozarts by its composer -
(Symphony in E op.7 no.6 was copied by Mozart in London and was long described (falsely) as Mozart’s work (formerly listed as k18). This symphony was composed by -

a. Ronald Macdonald ?
b. Karl Friedrich Abel (1723-1783) ?
c. Donald Duck ?

And NO, I am definitely NOT refering to any other JS Bach except the Kapellmeister of Leipzig, JS Bach (1685-1750).

Are YOU refering to another J.S. Bach ?????? Yes, you are ? Why are you refering to another J.S. Bach ? Are you just trying to lead us round and round in circles, again ? Yes, you are !!!

This is fun. Do you like going round and round inside a spin dryer of your own invention ?

You confirm that there is NO EVIDENCE of a contact by the Mozarts to Mr "Abel" WHATSOEVER!

PS Are you referring to the same JSBach who was appointed 'Composer to the Royal Court Capelle' (roman catholic), Dresden, 1837?