Classical Listening

[Sebas. Melmoth]

Now: Brahms' Two String Quartets Op. 51 with the Alban Berg Quartet.

The ABQ is very accurate, but tends to be harsh and shrill.

[Musicology]

Yes Brian,

An amazing work. Amazing performer. Rostropovich. From Dvorak in music that could only have been written in a nation of strong people - the America Dvorak saw.

Thanks so much for this performance, it's simply magical.

[Emil Miller]

Yes Brian,

An amazing work. Amazing performer. Rostropovich. From Dvorak in music that could only have been written in a nation of strong people - the America Dvorak saw.

I don't think that the America that Dvorak saw particularly influenced the concerto. It is full of nostalgia for his homeland which, given the nationalistic music of Smetana, owed little to Dvorak's period in the US. In the same way that, although the inclusion of certain negro spirituals is often cited as a major inspiration, the New World symphony is resolutely central European in it's emotional appeal.

[stlukesguild]

There are certainly themes in the New World Symphony that were inspired by American folk music... but I agree that Dvorak remains solidly within the European tradition. Indeed, he is probably the composer who remained closest to the classical tradition of Beethoven and Brahms.

What I'd be interested in exploring is any possible American influence on Mahler. Mahler spent from January 1908-March 1911 mostly in New York where he had taken the helm of the New York Philharmonic. Shortly before leaving for the US, Mahler's daughter, Maria, died of scarlet fever. This wrought great tension between Mahler and his wife who blamed him for tempting fate with his cycle of orchestral songs, Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children") written two years earlier. Mahler was himself diagnosed with a weak heart which only exasperated his feelings of angst. He had always been superstitious and fearful of an early death to the point that he had avoided composing a ninth symphony out of fear of the "Curse of Beethoven's Ninth" (No great symphonist had succeeded in writing beyond a ninth symphony after Beethoven).

In New York he composed his great symphonic song cycle, Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") which is a meditation on death and the eternal cycle of nature. Believing he had avoided the curse, and had essentially written his own ninth (his song cycles being little different from his symphonies), he began a true Ninth Symphony. Before the premier, Mahler discovered that Alma had begun an affair with the architect, Walter Gropius. Mahler actually sought counseling from Sigmund Freud and agreed to stay with Alam for the sake of his health, in spite of the fact that she carried on with her affair (Alma was actually somewhat infamous for having carried out affairs or married half of the leading artists in Vienna including Mahler's pupil, Alexander von Zemlinsky, probably Gustav Klimt, the theater director Max Burckhard , Mahler himself, the architect Walter Gropius, the artist Oscar Kokoschka, and the poet Franz Werfel).

One wonders... considering that Mahler composed the great Das Lied von der Erde, the Ninth Symphony, and the unfinished 10th Symphony while in New York just whether there was any American influence on these works. Honestly, I don't recognize as much myself... rather I see far more in Dvorak's New World Symphony and Quartet... but is makes for an interesting question.

[Musicology]

Hi stlukesguild,

I thought the same - for a long time. The Cello Concerto of Dvorak appears to be 'solidly within the European tradition'. That is how we all hear of it. But as years have passed I started to think very differently.

I will post on my view separately. This wonderful work is so much more than music of European tradition. At least, so I now see it.

Regards

There are certainly themes in the New World Symphony that were inspired by American folk music... but I agree that Dvorak remains solidly within the European tradition. Indeed, he is probably the composer who remained closest to the classical tradition of Beethoven and Brahms.

What I'd be interested in exploring is any possible American influence on Mahler. Mahler spent from January 1908-March 1911 mostly in New York where he had taken the helm of the New York Philharmonic. Shortly before leaving for the US, Mahler's daughter, Maria, died of scarlet fever. This wrought great tension between Mahler and his wife who blamed him for tempting fate with his cycle of orchestral songs, Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children") written two years earlier. Mahler was himself diagnosed with a weak heart which only exasperated his feelings of angst. He had always been superstitious and fearful of an early death to the point that he had avoided composing a ninth symphony out of fear of the "Curse of Beethoven's Ninth" (No great symphonist had succeeded in writing beyond a ninth symphony after Beethoven).

In New York he composed his great symphonic song cycle, Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") which is a meditation on death and the eternal cycle of nature. Believing he had avoided the curse, and had essentially written his own ninth (his song cycles being little different from his symphonies), he began a true Ninth Symphony. Before the premier, Mahler discovered that Alma had begun an affair with the architect, Walter Gropius. Mahler actually sought counseling from Sigmund Freud and agreed to stay with Alam for the sake of his health, in spite of the fact that she carried on with her affair (Alma was actually somewhat infamous for having carried out affairs or married half of the leading artists in Vienna including Mahler's pupil, Alexander von Zemlinsky, probably Gustav Klimt, the theater director Max Burckhard , Mahler himself, the architect Walter Gropius, the artist Oscar Kokoschka, and the poet Franz Werfel).

One wonders... considering that Mahler composed the great Das Lied von der Erde, the Ninth Symphony, and the unfinished 10th Symphony while in New York just whether there was any American influence on these works. Honestly, I don't recognize as much myself... rather I see far more in Dvorak's New World Symphony and Quartet... but is makes for an interesting question.

The Cello Concerto of Dvorak. So often described as 'solidly within the European tradition'. I thought so myself for a long time. And that's true, but only in the sense of it being a glimpse made by a highly talented, even inspired, European man of a vanishing people. The native Americans of North America. And capturing the arrival of the modern 'world' as we know it. Both things just before the arrival of the 20th century.

Some years ago I was in the USA and made enquiries at the Smithsonian in Washington about the music of the native Indians. (Much of it unstudied). Out of which I started correspondence with a lady of the Seminole Indians of Florida. She did not know the Dvorak Cello Concerto and I shared it with her by posts (a series of Youtube clips of this recording).

I want to focus on the Second Movement in particular. Which, I now believe, is almost entirely based on the music of the native American Indians.

Anyway, here is that movement.

Second Movement (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Qts4pxJN8

Second Movement (Part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvKa...eature=related

(from 4' 03'' onwards in this second part of the second movement this is a native Indian dance. The bass/rythmic parts are not specially clear in this recording, but that's what it surely is).

Mstislav Rostropovich, Cello
Carlo Maria Giulini, Conductor
London Philharmonic

This work, from the late 19th century, is totally unique. Nobody but a Dvorak could have been able to capture this in such a wonderful way.

[Emil Miller]

I hear nothing in Mahler that reflects his sojourn in America. His work schedule was phenomenal and consisted of conducting in New York, extensive tours around the country with the New York Philharmonic and sharing two seasons at the Metropolitan Opera with Toscanini. During this time he would have been immersed in the European masterworks and whatever composing he may have done would have almost certainly been within the central European tradition.
Dvorak's position was somewhat different in that he went to New York as head of the National Conservatory of Music and, as such, naturally took note of existing folk music as part of his work. However, he refuted the idea that it was the inspiration for either the New World Symphony or the so-called American Quartet that were written during his time in the US.

[Musicology]

J.S. Bach
Cantata 167
Soloist - Jo-Jo Ma (Cello)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTg4bQ2YLkc

This is true Brian. And, on folk music as such, I think he was talking at the time of musical inspiration as a whole. Trying to explain (I believe) his music 'From the New World' was not to be seen as a plagiarisation of existing music nor an attempt to quote it for its own sake but to get to its soul, not just in works such as 'From the New World', nor only in the 'American Quartet' but here, in the Cello Concerto.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing ? Since all three of these works are indisputably influenced by America and are European, though they are neither American nor European but far more.

At least, so I believe.

I hear nothing in Mahler that reflects his sojourn in America. His work schedule was phenomenal and consisted of conducting in New York, extensive tours around the country with the New York Philharmonic and sharing two seasons at the Metropolitan Opera with Toscanini. During this time he would have been immersed in the European masterworks and whatever composing he may have done would have almost certainly been within the central European tradition.
Dvorak's position was somewhat different in that he went to New York as head of the National Conservatory of Music and, as such, naturally took note of existing folk music as part of his work. However, he refuted the idea that it was the inspiration for either the New World Symphony or the so-called American Quartet that were written during his time in the US.

Wonderful story -

''In 1961, Anton Dvorak's son Otakar wrote a memoir about his boyhood trip to America, and although sixty-eight years had passed, he never forgot the Indians he met in Spillville. He described them as "medicine men" belonging to a tribe of thirty or so Iroquois who lived in tents "south of town, across the creek. ... My father was interested ... in their songs and instruments... Father received photos from the Indians. These photos were among my father's prize possessions."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[stlukesguild]

Some beautiful "early" music and some beautiful and appropriate imagery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwPoW4R_ULc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYUGH...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrsic...eature=related

[Musicology]

A famous live performance -

Claude Debussy
L'après-midi d'un faune
London Symphony Orchestra
(Leopold Stokowski)

(14th June 1972)

Of this legendary performance Christopher Palmer wrote in "The Musical Times" that -
"My most treasured memory of that evening is undoubtedly 'Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune', which received a reading of exceptional refinement with all the tensions and relaxations effortlessly and beautifully graded, and unerringly poetic solo work from all the woodwind. A flawless performance."

And in "The Daily Telegraph" Peter Stadlen wrote -

"Stokowski's legendary hands, though batonless, are put to the strictest functional use. His angular, almost ungainly movements are the simple tools for some of he most masterly conducting the century has witnessed....by what seemingly incongruous flicks of the wrist did he promote the fabulously sensitve solos in 'Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune'? Never has lifelong global fame rested on more solid foundations."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5A4C...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1P85...eature=related

[Emil Miller]

Thanks for this performance of one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century. Being one of my heroes, I was very lucky to get a ticket for one of the last performances he gave, which was at at the Albert Hall. I can tell you that the hall was packed and the atmosphere was electric. I was seated behind the orchestra and could see a child of about seven seated in the stalls between his parents, and he was conducting with his arms by following the maestro; it was both amusing and touching to see.
Stokowski's life was really incredible, a rise from obscurity to vast riches when monetary values really meant something. Yet, despite his exotic life, he returned to the country of his birth and died in Hampshire, England. He is buried near to his parents in London.

[Musicology]

Hi Brian,

No performance or recording I've heard (and I've heard over a dozen) compares in my view with this

I once had the entire concert of that day on cassette tape (whose sound quality is of course better than this Youtube) and it amazed me then as it does now. What an orchestra and what an achievement from the 90 year old Stokowski.

Another remarkable live recording -

Richard Wagner
Overture to the opera 'Rienzi'
James Levine
Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
1996

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s19dw...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hZ_6...eature=related

[Emil Miller]

Levine's performance is exceptional for a live performance but Stokowski's recorded version with the Philadelphia orchestra ( unbelievable sound for 1927) is how it should be played. I was lucky enough to see Stokowski conduct an all Wagner programme at the Royal Festival Hall and it was one of the most thrilling concerts I ever attended. Stokowski once said: "For most of my life, people have insisted on paying me large sums of money to conduct orchestras. I never told them I would have done it for nothing."

[Musicology]

Josef Martin Kraus (1756-92)
Operatic March
(Supplied to the opera 'Idomeneo' for a certain Salzburger named Wolfgang)

1781/2

Featured in Stanley Kubrik's film 'Barry Lyndon'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B44uK...eature=related

'What is man that Thou art mindful of him' ? (Psalm 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFh-n...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD8xl...eature=related

Gioachino Antonio Rossini (1792-1868)
Overture to the opera 'Semiramide' (Part 2)
Levente Gyorgy (cond.)
Vary Symphony Orchestra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIhmG0nepXU

Gioachino Antonio Rossini (1792-1868)
Overture
'La Gazza Ladra'
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Claudio Abbado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQW3j...eature=related

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh La Traviata, I can't stop playing this again - it's just absolutely wonderful - it's like drowning in red wine!!!

[Patrick_Bateman]

Is this a Thread for the Classical 'period' of music

or Art music in general?

I'll assume the latter

Johann Strauss II
Tchaikovsky

Dvorak
Vivaldi
Prokofiev

Bach


Everyone else