Snapshots

[Bar22do]

Sweet Bar, I was forgetting you are a daughter of Zeus, a muse, immortal and without regret, forever preserved in perfection.

Forgive this mere mortal his regrets and conceits while he morns his lost youth

Eternally yours, a Hawk with droopy wings.

Please see my edited post. For the rest, I aim at completeness, not perfection, whether a Muse or a mere mortal...

But if I'm really "yours eternally"... come on, buck up! Your vigour serves me best! he he.

Bar

[hillwalker]

As for the poem, I think it's another perceptive snapshot of what 'baggage' people walk around with for all to see (and decypher as they see fit) - for most of us it's written there on our faces (those of us who do not subscribe to the use of make-up!!). Thought-provoking and subtle as ever, Prince.

H

[PrinceMyshkin]

Thanks, Daffy, Hawk, Hillwalker, and

Well it depends what eye does one look at the elderly with (fear, love, disgust, self-concern, irritation, compassion).
Both "rubbish (of age)" or "rubies (of age)" are modifiers, and - INTERPRETATION, I see and choose to look at what's precious (even though it might sometimes take an effort)...
And honestly, I've never seen rubbish on somebody's face, not even on the numbest one... and I am on the bus (tramway or metro, and more, like street, park, beach) daily, Daf. Plus I can see well . And what I see is a tangle of history (of course), dignity, insecurity, self-determination, pain, joy, loneliness, desire, helplessness, wit, clumsiness, wisdom, weariness, love, bitterness, all - but not rubbish of age.
So, yes, a clever, poetically effective image indeed, but one I disagree with, though, goes without saying, it's the author's full right to choose how he looks at what or whom he sees, as well as to bare his own emotion when confronted with what challenges his eye...

I've looked at the three links you provided, but my response to you is to emphasize your use of "honestly" and "I see and choose" (emphasis added). Who is to judge when one is being "honest" or according to what standards? And, so often, what one "chooses" is what one needs or is predetermined to see.

And PS: The young man's "watery left eye" might serve as a hint at my own fallible eye.

[Bar22do]

Thanks, Daffy, Hawk, Hillwalker, and



I've looked at the three links you provided, but my response to you is to emphasize your use of "honestly" and "I see and choose" (emphasis added). Who is to judge when one is being "honest" or according to what standards? And, so often, what one "chooses" is what one needs or is predetermined to see.

I'm glad you've looked at the three links I provided.

I could replace "honestly" with "sincerely" if it read better for you; now I'm aware you had a good reason to choose "rubbish" where hill would choose "baggage", and where my own personal preference would go with the latter (or tangle of history...), while I know exactly what you meant, though you wouldn't think it. I believe that to consciously decide which choices one makes is of prime importance; I recently read in a collection of Baal Shem Tov's thoughts that man was given the free choice only to learn to choose the good. I love the depth of this idea, beautifully presented and grounded, among many others, in Rabbi Nahman's story "The exchanged children" (which I warmly recommend to you).

Finally, let me remind you that except for the disagreeable (to me) "rubbish", I found your latest offering laudable and did commend you for it and now reiterate the commendation.

Best to you - Bar

[PrinceMyshkin]

I'm glad you've looked at the three links I provided.

I could replace "honestly" with "sincerely" if it read better for you;

I had and have no reason to doubt your "honesty" nor your sincerity, but according to Abraham Maslow: "We cannot be more honest with others than we are with ourselves." And how honest can we be with ourselves when we are simultaneously the witness, the prosecutor, the defense attorney and the judge and jury of that "honesty"?

now I'm aware you had a good reason to choose "rubbish" where hill would choose "baggage", and where my own personal preference would go with the latter (or tangle of history...), while I know exactly what you meant, though you wouldn't think it.

No, I wouldn't think it no more than I would think I know exactly why you see "rubies" where I believed I saw "rubbish." Either of us would have had t0o recapitulate the whole of the other's life-history to understand perfectly why he/she made one observation rather than another.

I believe that to consciously decide which choices one makes is of prime importance; I recently read in a collection of Baal Shem Tov's thoughts that man was given the free choice only to learn to choose the good. I love the depth of this idea, beautifully presented and grounded, among many others, in Rabbi Nahman's story "The exchanged children" (which I warmly recommend to you).

Finally, let me remind you that except for the disagreeable (to me) "rubbish", I found your latest offering laudable and did commend you for it and now reiterate the commendation.

Best to you - Bar

I thank you for the appreciation you expressed and will look for Reb Nachman's story but in response to the Besht may I remind you of Spinoza's "We are free only to understand that we are not free."

[Bar22do]

I had and have no reason to doubt your "honesty" nor your sincerity, but according to Abraham Maslow: "We cannot be more honest with others than we are with ourselves." And how honest can we be with ourselves when we are simultaneously the witness, the prosecutor, the defense attorney and the judge and jury of that "honesty"?



No, I wouldn't think it no more than I would think I know exactly why you see "rubies" where I believed I saw "rubbish." Either of us would have had t0o recapitulate the whole of the other's life-history to understand perfectly why he/she made one observation rather than another.



I thank you for the appreciation you expressed and will look for Reb Nachman's story but in response to the Besht may I remind you of Spinoza's "We are free only to understand that we are not free."

The great Rabbi Mordechai Bimstein once said "freedom is slavery at its highest". Espinosa's thought on freedom completes the Besht's, but it's only when we look behind the words that we can begin to grasp, and grasp less than a dog's single lick from the ocean... Moses called himself "G'd's slave", for him freedom was to enable the divine element (you'll have to forgive me not to find a better term) to manifest freely through his medium, made relatively whole (not perfect). The whole Sufi tradition is based on the concept of freedom man gives the divinity to operate through him. But the idea behind is man search of wholeness and consequent breaking through to a broader picture of what's called Creation. Anyway, who's great enough for these things...!

As to the question of "honesty", we all have preconceptions and project them, but our developed (developing) awareness enables us to take responsibility of how we interact with our surroundings and how we change this interaction into a more harmonious one.
We certainly are not subjected to our life history the moment we refuse to and take it as our duty to co-build it (and for the predetermination part, there is much wisdom in the old saying "since you cannot change the world, change your inner image of the world and then you'll change the world"). "My" "rubies" are more the effect of a continuing work on myself and the resulting conscious decision to focus on the positive and good in people, rather than the effect of a rose petals' carpeted life... And let me guess, if you'd only interacted with the couple, the first you'd do would be to smile at them and engage in conversation, and it would have been enough they return you a smile for you to erase all the rubbish from their faces and your own frustration, and to see beyond their dull, wrinkled puzzles, lives worthwhile living, complex and rich. In Hebrew "face" is "panim", meaning "inside"... But again, who's great enough for these things...

Be well - Bar

[PrinceMyshkin]

The great Rabbi Mordechai Bimstein once said "freedom is slavery at its highest". Espinosa's thought on freedom completes the Besht's, but it's only when we look behind the words that we can begin to grasp, and grasp less than a dog's single lick from the ocean... Moses called himself "G'd's slave", for him freedom was to enable the divine element (you'll have to forgive me not to find a better term) to manifest freely through his medium, made relatively whole (not perfect). The whole Sufi tradition is based on the concept of freedom man gives the divinity to operate through him. But the idea behind is man search of wholeness and consequent breaking through to a broader picture of what's called Creation. Anyway, who's great enough for these things...!

As to the question of "honesty", we all have preconceptions and project them, but our developed (developing) awareness enables us to take responsibility of how we interact with our surroundings and how we change this interaction into a more harmonious one.
We certainly are not subjected to our life history the moment we refuse to and take it as our duty to co-build it (and for the predetermination part, there is much wisdom in the old saying "since you cannot change the world, change your inner image of the world and then you'll change the world"). "My" "rubies" are more the effect of a continuing work on myself and the resulting conscious decision to focus on the positive and good in people, rather than the effect of a rose petals' carpeted life... And let me guess, if you'd only interacted with the couple, the first you'd do would be to smile at them and engage in conversation, and it would have been enough they return you a smile for you to erase all the rubbish from their faces and your own frustration, and to see beyond their dull, wrinkled puzzles, lives worthwhile living, complex and rich.

This is a) an objective possibility but b) more importantly the credo - however arrived at - of your belief in love and in the goodness of your fellow beings. But since of the 1,000s of people who cross my vision, I won't likely have the opportunity to investigate the inner lives of more than a few dozen of them, I'm forced to rely at times on split-second images of them as those images interact with whatever fleeting mood I'm in.

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong... I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me."

Feynman, Richard, quoted in Gleick, Genius: The life & Science of Richard Feynman, p. 438

[dafydd manton]

Prince, I'm happy that you've disagreed with what I said! It wasn't meant in an ugly sense, but you have, as ever, explained it with rapier-like precision. I shall walk out backwards, bowing!! Well done, my liege!

[PrinceMyshkin]

Prince, I'm happy that you've disagreed with what I said! It wasn't meant in an ugly sense, but you have, as ever, explained it with rapier-like precision. I shall walk out backwards, bowing!! Well done, my liege!

Can't imagine what you're referring to. The last comment you made here

Funnily enough, (and I cringe at disagreeing with Bar), I preferred Rubbish. I think I know exactly what you mean. I used to be a bus-driver, and I got people like that on the bus all day. Great Image!! (Sorry Bar, Respect!)

doesn't contain anything I disagree with.

[Delta40]

I haven't read any posts but I'm in awe of someone who gets 639 replies to their poem!!

[PrinceMyshkin]

I haven't read any posts but I'm in awe of someone who gets 639 replies to their poem!!

Indeed you haven't! That's 639 replies to 195 poems - or roughly 3.27 replies per poem!

[Jerrybaldy]

I blame the format Prince. Its hard to find the original verse on ongoing threads. I think if each had been individually posted the total would have been much, much higher and more people would have read and enjoyed your work. I know the arguments against, but as a reader I much prefer to be able to find the poem at the start.
best wishes
Jerry

[dafydd manton]

I don't think we need take a vote on that!! Jerry is *gasp* right.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I blame the format Prince. Its hard to find the original verse on ongoing threads. I think if each had been individually posted the total would have been much, much higher and more people would have read and enjoyed your work. I know the arguments against, but as a reader I much prefer to be able to find the poem at the start.
best wishes
Jerry

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=32797

[Jerrybaldy]

At the hotel restaurant
in Paris
at the table next to me
a couple who've been married
since just before the invention of pain.

He looks past her shoulder
into the middle distance
as if he might find a thought there
somewhere, she
looks down, to the left of him, wondering
where the years have gone.

Prince, My fellow Jerry I see
I wish I didnt connect quite so well with this poem. But I did and thought it was a brilliant and sparing study into the sadness that goes along with the warmth of a long held love.
I loved it
Jerry B