charles bukowski

[WICKES]

Anyone read him? What do you make of him? I have just finished Ham On Rye, which I thought pretty good. I dislike American literature generally but I may go through Bukowski's other novels.

It is a very moving work. The tenderness and compassion occasionally displayed by the brutalised, miserable boy, in spite of his efforts to be tough and in spite of the relentless cruelty around him, really got to me. Bukowski's hard, clear, objective style adds to the effect. It was heartfelt, authentic, honest yet never seeming to strive for an effect or to be asking for your pity. It is also funny. Not laugh out loud funny like Evelyn Waugh- more 'amusing'. It is also very easy to read (which is always welcome). In fact it seemed more like lots of very good short stories strung togethar in chronological order. Did anyone else feel this?

[breathtest]

you've definitely hit it right on the nose. I think he is a great writer, perhaps the best, and everything you said is exactly how i feel. Bukowski is a minimalist but this has such a great effect. And there are times when i felt great compassion for him, as when he is watching the cat being cornered by the dog and how he wants to help. Fantastic writer.

You should read Factotum and Post Office. They are two books which are just as good, if not better, than Ham on Rye.

[Onikeflava]

you've definitely hit it right on the nose. I think he is a great writer, perhaps the best, and everything you said is exactly how i feel. Bukowski is a minimalist but this has such a great effect. And there are times when i felt great compassion for him, as when he is watching the cat being cornered by the dog and how he wants to help. Fantastic writer.

You should read Factotum and Post Office. They are two books which are just as good, if not better, than Ham on Rye.

I agree that Post Office is a good read, but Factotum wasn't as good as Ham on Rye. Either way, I love Bukowski's work as well.

[WICKES]

[QUOTE=breathtest;812633]

you've definitely hit it right on the nose. I think he is a great writer, perhaps the best, and everything you said is exactly how i feel. Bukowski is a minimalist but this has such a great effect. And there are times when i felt great compassion for him, as when he is watching the cat being cornered by the dog and how he wants to help. Fantastic writer.

I thought the two most moving passages were the 'fly rescue' and the 'dog blessing'. If you remember, another boy calls him over to where a gang are watching a fly struggling in a web as a spider approaches. Bukowski breaks the web and the others chase him. It is a more moving incident than the killing of the cat. Here he does what he does at the risk of a beating. His innate sensitivity overpowers him and he acts almost automatically.

I also liked the scene in which he baptises a stray dog "cos dogs have a right to get to heaven too". The priest says nothing when he confesses to kicking his parents, to swearing and stealing, but he's furious that they've baptised the dog. It says so much about the idiocy of organised religion. His acts of cruelty and violence are listened to without emotion or interest. His one act of tenderness- wanting to help a poor, half starved dog- is condemned. It is a wonderful little episode that would make a great short story. It really does read like lots of short stories arranged in chronological order. Did you feel that?

You should read Factotum and Post Office. They are two books which are just as good, if not better, than Ham on Rye

.

I am 2/3's of the way through Factotum and, tbh, a little disappointed. The anecdotes are less striking and entertaining and the crudity, which he gets away with in Ham On Rye, is simply ugly and even tedious. However, the big failing, compared to Ham On Rye, is the absence of redemption. In HOR Chianski's squalid, bitter, brutal, ugly little life is redeemed by those flashes of compassion and humanity- his pity for a stray dog, for a cat or fly, his contempt for bullies and gangs. He seems a romantic outsider, pouring his misery into his books. A life saved by literature. There is none of this in Factotum. Here is simply an *******. Now I know he's keeping it real, but the world is crammed to bursting with horrible people whose lives I am not interested in. In HOR you felt this was a kid whose life was worth something. There was clearly a sensitvity and intelligence that should have been nurtured rather than crushed. Perhaps Bukowski is trying to tell us this very thing when Jan says "your parents hated you- the lack of love has warped you". The problem is, without the tenderness, without the kindness, it is hard to empathise with him- to see him as a fellow sufferer. Instead he has become one of the very *******s who make life so miserable.

Sorry to ramble. Be interested to hear any thoughts on Factotum.

[breathtest]

I thought the two most moving passages were the 'fly rescue' and the 'dog blessing'. If you remember, another boy calls him over to where a gang are watching a fly struggling in a web as a spider approaches. Bukowski breaks the web and the others chase him. It is a more moving incident than the killing of the cat. Here he does what he does at the risk of a beating. His innate sensitivity overpowers him and he acts almost automatically.

Well i thought the cat scene was more moving because he really wants to help the poor thing and yet he is completely helpless. But i do agree that the spider passage was very moving as well. I think a lot of people misjudge Bukowski.

I am 2/3's of the way through Factotum and, tbh, a little disappointed. The anecdotes are less striking and entertaining and the crudity, which he gets away with in Ham On Rye, is simply ugly and even tedious. However, the big failing, compared to Ham On Rye, is the absence of redemption. In HOR Chianski's squalid, bitter, brutal, ugly little life is redeemed by those flashes of compassion and humanity- his pity for a stray dog, for a cat or fly, his contempt for bullies and gangs. He seems a romantic outsider, pouring his misery into his books. A life saved by literature. There is none of this in Factotum. Here is simply an *******. Now I know he's keeping it real, but the world is crammed to bursting with horrible people whose lives I am not interested in. In HOR you felt this was a kid whose life was worth something. There was clearly a sensitvity and intelligence that should have been nurtured rather than crushed. Perhaps Bukowski is trying to tell us this very thing when Jan says "your parents hated you- the lack of love has warped you". The problem is, without the tenderness, without the kindness, it is hard to empathise with him- to see him as a fellow sufferer. Instead he has become one of the very *******s who make life so miserable.

Well, to me, Factotum was a book filled to the brim with helpless suffering. Chinaski is suffering through life, job after job, pretending not to care, when really he is medicating himself every night with alcohol and constantly looking for women just so he can have company, rather than be alone. In this respect, i think the humanity does not come in little flashes, like in HOR, but instead exists throughout the book. I felt such compassion for Chinaski because i could see that he was suffering. Everything he does is an attempt to distance himself from the pain of his reality. And that is why i loved the book.

But anyway, i enjoyed reading what you had to say about this. It's cool to discuss Bukowski with someone as there doesn't seem to be many fans of his around.

[Hank Stamper]

i think i prefered factotum more than post office, but is a while since i read it so can't remember why.. but ham and rye is def his best

you should also try his collection of short stories, the most beautiful woman in town

[kelby_lake]

Anyone read him? What do you make of him? I have just finished Ham On Rye, which I thought pretty good. I dislike American literature generally but I may go through Bukowski's other novels.

There is so much great American literature- how can you generally dislike the literature of an entire country? I read one of Bukowski's poems (about writing) and it wasn't that great. Is there anything about him that distinguishes him from the hundreds of other American writers?

[breathtest]

Kelby Lake, you should read his earlier poems and also his novels because he is unique and i can't name another american writer who is anything like him.

[spookymulder93]

Just finished Ham on Rye. 2nd best book I've read this year. There's beauty in all that ugliness.

[kelby_lake]

Kelby Lake, you should read his earlier poems and also his novels because he is unique and i can't name another american writer who is anything like him.

What's his style like? From the Wiki information, it looks like he's a Hemingway style guy.
There's few American writers I'd describe as unique, although a lot of them are very distinctive. At the moment I'm liking Neil LaBute's stuff.

[stlukesguild]

I think he is a great writer, perhaps the best,

Yeah! Ranks right up there with Shakespeare and Dante.

[spookymulder93]

I like Dante but Shakespeare is pretty boring. I had more fun reading Ham on Rye than I did Romeo and Juliet so that makes Ham on Rye better than Romeo and Juliet IMO.

[Virgil]

I like Dante but Shakespeare is pretty boring. I had more fun reading Ham on Rye than I did Romeo and Juliet so that makes Ham on Rye better than Romeo and Juliet IMO.

Oh come on Spooky. What else by Shakespeare have you read? Don't judge him on one work. Have you read Hamlet or MacBeth?

[YORK]

I read most of his novels and a substantial portion of his poetry in my middle teen years and at the time thought he was very good.

As I've grown (slightly) older I seem to have similarly outgrown him. I still think he's good and appreciate the position his writing has in the modern American literary tradition. But as I've expanded my reading I've realised that he isn't the best thing since pumpkin seed bread (which we all know is the best type of bread).

EDIT: As a helpful suggestion (which most who like Charles will have already heard of, as the two seem to come hand in hand these days) John Fante is of a similar ilke and makes for a nice alternative.

[stlukesguild]

I like Dante but Shakespeare is pretty boring. I had more fun reading Ham on Rye than I did Romeo and Juliet so that makes Ham on Rye better than Romeo and Juliet IMO.

The key words being "in my opinion" which obviously has little merit within the world of "real" literature.