Rarely? So, I suppose the implementation of anti-homosexual laws in Uganda, with the support of the Anglican and Catholic churches do no harm, the christian/muslim violence in Nigeria, or the countless oppressive Sharia Law run Islamist societies do no harm.Originally Posted by Aragorn Elessar
Just to go along with OP's comments, it is very noticeable that the less-religious countries - European, mostly - have very low crime rates and very high standards of living.
The evidence would suggest that less religion = better societies.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
And that's not to mention the last two thousand years of human history. Most atheists that I know got their start by being disgusted by the track record of religion (myself included). Yep, religious history is pretty gross so I'm just going to stay away from that whole area.
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 07-29-2010 at 01:33 AM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
I question this. “Most” people have no clue what science is, they just take information given blindly and then revel in the benefits they receive from science while claiming science knows all. No different than any religion, both expect some god or some science to take care of them and when something doesn’t continue to give them reassurance, they then damn the one they chose.
Religion was once considered the opiate of the masses, now science has created masses who seem to be on opiates.
When the wrong man uses the right means, the right means gets used in the wrong way.
Hmm, interesting points. Religion does have a pretty nasty history. I guess I didn't phrase my statement quite right...I just mean that simply believing in a god or supernatural force doesn't do any harm to society. However, I shouldn't have used the word 'religion' - historically it has done harm, because many religious groups try to force their beliefs upon others and that leads to chaos. And yeah, the anti-homosexual laws are a problem.
Religion is fine as long as no one is trying to force beliefs on individuals and their religious beliefs aren't implemented into political systems. Sorry for not phrasing my statements too well.
I always see that as a bit of a strawman argument, because I've never really seen it. I come across far more people who don't accept science than those who accept every word uttered by a scietist as true. Not to ask how someone can possibly claim science "knows" anything anyway.
If someone actually did take that path, I agree, they would be as deluded as the worst fundy, but do they really exist?
Neat paraphrase, but without evidence that any reasobale number of people think that way, it's meaningless.
Sorry, that one's just gibberish. Yes, Hitler made the trains run on time, but one sheep doesn't make a flock.
I agree, but the problem seems to be that it never stops just at belief.
The believers have to reinforce their own beliefs by getting others to subscribe to them. Once that starts, sooner or later, someone pulls out the collection hat and money gets involved. Add that to the natural power trip of the leader and you have all the ingedients of a first-class balls-up.
If religion, psychics, astrologers and homepathy salesmen would all swear to shut up and just believe, I'd retire from rationalism.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
Back to topic -
Even within a religious denomination or sect there may be disagreement, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with this. Nor is there anything wrong with the multitudes of religious formations and their differing opinions and views on the subject of 'God' and the rules men apply to what God is or how a person should live their lives. This is all religion, not God.
We get so easily sidetracked and want to discuss religion; what man says about God, rather than take a topic, such as the one from the OP which is, "Is God a projection of our thoughts only?" The qualifier only leads me to want to answer with a simple NO.
An extreme example is that there are people killing and being killed in the name of God, this leads me to justify my "no" in that an individual can project God beyond their mere thoughts and into actions.
Regarding the comments along with the OP, I have never seen the North Pole, but can imagine a barren desert of ice, and could, if pressed, sketch my idea of what it might look like.
I'd rather have questions that I can't answer than answers that I can't question.
They may not “accept” science, but they use it for their own opiate. How many people are glued to a TV? How many want or demand science to make their lives better without understanding basic ideas? Same with religion, many don’t accept it, yet ignorance, social preasure and fear of the unknown keep them heading for a pew or prayer mat.
It needs no evidence, just a thought and most words spoken have no provable evidence that they mean jack squat, including yours, mine or anyone else’s. Your trump card is always evidence, so, show me the evidence that what you say actually means anything.
Jibberish? How many sheep followed? How many millions died? But hey, the train was on time! “When the wrong man uses the right means, the right means get used in the wrong way.” This should be thought about in science also. We all know by now how much you despise philosophy, but it’s a very simple phrase that should be thought about in the scientific/technological world. Science (and boredom) have killed religion, but it certainly hasn’t fixed all of the worlds problems and there are many who would argue that it’s now worse. But no matter, American Idol is on, Wal-Mart is open 24 hours and I’m sure science will cure the obesity it’s processed garbage food has created. Pass the Cheeto’s.
Same as the disbelievers, they both need each other to validate their own position. And both sides have collection hats and ego tripping leaders and it's all projection, just depends on who has the deepest pockets at the time.
Last edited by grotto; 07-29-2010 at 11:34 PM.
You're confusing technology with science, science as a methodology is useful for producing technology but is not the same thing.
I'm not a great fan of American Idol, and I hate Cheetos - but, frankly, I'd rather people had the opportunity to get fat watching TV and eating crap than were burned at the stake, or were shot at in muddy trenches, or were starved to death by their own corrupt and avaricious governments.
Thing is - and I say this as a lifelong champagne socialist -modern Western culture might not be very edifying, but it's difficult to think of any other working arrangement that provides the choice - every single day - of whether to hang out at the gym and MOMA or to slump in front of the TV with a pizza on your lap, and in either case to do it without much real fear of ending up dead by dinnertime.
So - you you may not think that American Idol, Wal-Mart and Cheetos constitute progress, and no one would suggest that a life based around that is the highest form of individual achievement - but in order to convince anyone that it's a Bad Thing, I think you have to point to a working societal model - religious or secular - that's a demonstrable improvement on it.
Last edited by MarkBastable; 07-30-2010 at 06:24 AM.
Not that this anti-science rhetoric even makes any sense. Science is not an alternative to religion, science is a methodology used to understand the natural world, it is pragmatic and logical. Science has absolutely nothing to do with religion, except when religions make claims about how the natural world works (which invariably contradict scientific evidence). To present science and religion as opposites illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. You expect science to solve people's personal issues, or fix society's problems, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what science is or attempts to be.
You should have specified which god you meant. Some Gods and Goddesses are seen regularly, while others have never been seen. It is possible that the Bible, the Koran, etc. were dreamed up by humans, but that doesn't mean that all Gods were devised in the minds on humans.
Last edited by PeterL; 07-30-2010 at 01:51 PM.
Ok, that's it.
OrphanPip and Mark Bastable, please take note:
I am officially sick and tired of the pair of you!
Thanks to stupid time differences, I come online yet again to find that some questions and assertions have already been dealt with while I've been asleep.
Now, there can be no crime greater tha stealing my bloody thunder, ok!
Brilliantly answered by the pair of you.
Chanpagne socialist!
You and me both, brother!
You're right, it's not proof, but there's a whole lot more hay in god's stack than just that gods are drawn in man's image.
Besides that, I look at people who have a personal relationship with their imaginary friend Jesus. They truly believe they speak to him in a one-on-one situation. They see him and talk to him.
Doesn't it occur to any of them to tell their pastors and preachers that Jesus doesn't actually look like this?
http://www.google.co.nz/images?rlz=1...N&hl=en&tab=wi
We create the gods we want, and as history has shown us for at least 10,000 years, they've all been wrong - except of course, for whichever one, true god one happens to believe in at the time.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
And who are you to say that they do not have that sort of relationship with Jesus?
The concept that people have of a God is of llittle or no consequence to anyone else.Doesn't it occur to any of them to tell their pastors and preachers that Jesus doesn't actually look like this?
http://www.google.co.nz/images?rlz=1...N&hl=en&tab=wi
You may been busily creating gods for the last 10,000 years, but that doesnt mean that all of them are wrong.We create the gods we want, and as history has shown us for at least 10,000 years, they've all been wrong - except of course, for whichever one, true god one happens to believe in at the time.
Last edited by PeterL; 08-01-2010 at 09:29 AM. Reason: typo
Oh, they may well do - my point is that Jesus appears to western christians as a white man, something which the bible specifically tells us he was not.
That's exactly what I said!
The one, true god is true, but the other 999,999 are not.
I find it really easy to add that last one in, but some people struggle with the conept.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
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