Do you believe in Reincarnation?

[Paulclem]

Thanks Caddy - no I wasn't ofended by your posts. It is interesting to see different perspectives As Billl says - it has made the destiny idea clearer fro the perspective f Islam.

I can see why discussion with Druze friends would be difficult, but it's nice to see tolerance of different beliefs by yourself.

Reincarnation is of course the means by which Tibetans have chosen their Dalai Lamas.

The current Dalai Lama - HH The 14th Dalai Lama is a well known figure on the world stage. His figure embodies reincarnation, as it is claimed by Tibetan Buddhists, to be the living embodiment of the Buddha of Compassion.

This system is not hereditary, but relies upon the previous Dalai Lama leaving clues, the insights of Nechung - a protector spirit who advises the Office of the Dalai Lama, the visions from sacred lakes and, once the children are found, tests to establish authenticity.

A bit wild weird and wonderful? The 13th and 14th Dalai Lamas have been exemplary, as anyone who has seen HH The 14th Dalai Lama will understand.

It is also not just the Dalai Lamas who are chosen in this way. The Karmapas, (another spiritual leader in Tibet), are also chosen this way, The 17th in the last 20 years.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dance-17-Liv...5429607&sr=1-1

[Mr Mahmoud]

I agree to this distinction but I'd like to add something about the words "fate", "destiny" and "doom".

The three of them share the meaning that "something that is inevitably destined to happen to a person". But there are shades of meanings that color each word with some particular use.

"Fate" (as an uncountable noun) refers to the power that controls all events in a way that cannot be resisted (He had hoped to become president, but fate decided otherwise); it is almost synonymous with the word "destiny" in this sense (Destiny brought them together).
When the word "fate" is pluralized, it means the future of someone or something as decided by fate (destinies)They met their various fates.)
Now fatal alone means 'causing or ending in death' (a fatal accident); it also means 'ruinous, ending in disaster' (a fatal mistake, a fatal weakness).

The word "destiny" [ can either be singular or plural, with the same difference in meaning as in the case of "fate". When used as countable noun it also means "something that happens to someone thought of to be predetermined by fate" (It was his destiny to die in a foreign country). So "destiny" or "destinies" are determined by "fate".

The word "doom" seems to me as having a negative implication. It means a "tragic or ruinous Fate" or "an inevitable ruin or destruction" (Their family is doomed), that is, they are miserable, poor, unlucky, ruined, decadent, disintegrated, etc

NB: The works consulted are OED, AHD, and Fowler's Modern English Usage

[billl]

Well, I like how, in this system of distinctions, "doom" is not what the individual chooses ("doom"s negative connotations are quite strong in everyday English) and "destiny" represents what the individual does choose (the word "Destiny" generally has a very good connotation in English).

Unfortunately the addition of "fate" as something that cannot be resisted--and also something that (somehow) can be held as equivalent to "destiny"--sort of makes things a bit confusing. Isn't "destiny", in the earlier post, supposed to represent a course chosen by the individual (but forseen by God)? Rather than something that an individual cannot resist?

[caddy_caddy]

In Arabic language BIll, wich is the language of the Qur'an ,fate is represented in two words only and make the distinctions clear .
That makes the Arabic language referential in interpretation .
When translating to other languages there would be some diffculties as the case here .

I refered to the Greek civilization because they believed that fate is set by gods and goddesses and there is no notion of the free will . In their tragedies they refer to the first distinction in the Qur'an.
In the Elizabethen tragedy , there is the notion of the free will , so fate would be the second one in the Qura'n .

To make things clear , I think we should refer tothe English version of the Qura'an to know which word they used in every case .

[billl]

To make things clear , I think we should refer tothe English version of the Qura'an to know which word they used in every case .

That seems like a good idea, thank you for exploring the issue, and trying to come up with a convenient perspective for me, as an English-speaker.

Does this mean that the distinction between "destiny" and "doom" still holds, as set forth a few posts back? I suppose, in the interpretation according to Elizabethan English, that "fate" would be regarded as "doom"... I appreciate that, from the Arabic perspective, there might be some objection, on grounds of some technicailty, or cultural nuance, of course...

Still, in case you were unaware, the term "doom" has a very negative connotation in English. The word "fate" is also rather frightening (and generally negative), but there are cases in which it has been applied to positive outcomes, perhaps emphasizing that the participants should not take too much credit for their good fortune. "Destiny", however, has a rather strongly positive connotation. It might be possible to use it in a negative context, but the unorthodoxy of such a choice would certainly register with the reader. "Destiny" is usually associated with heroics, and the success of one's best expression of will.

Again, I cannot understand the nuances regarding the two Arabic words which might represent Fate (in English), and so I wonder if something in my preceding paragraph might offer some hint to you about this nuance in translation.

Really, I wonder if we can get anywhere on this, and if PaulClem might soon object to this tangent. ;-)
And I certainly feel some embarrassment at your facility with my language, when I have really none with yours.

[caddy_caddy]

For sure it still holds true . I looked up in the English version and I found out that for the same word in Arabic they do not use destined , or doomed .
Instead they often use " judged " to mean the will of the God that you cannot change . It fascinated me .

I'll see what they use for the other meaning .

[billl]

That is fascinating... Could the judgement really be arbitrary (i.e., based on nothing at all)?

[Paulclem]

Objection your honour! - No Billl not at all.

[Mr Mahmoud]

Well, I like how, in this system of distinctions, "doom" is not what the individual chooses ("doom"s negative connotations are quite strong in everyday English) and "destiny" represents what the individual does choose (the word "Destiny" generally has a very good connotation in English).

Unfortunately the addition of "fate" as something that cannot be resisted--and also something that (somehow) can be held as equivalent to "destiny"--sort of makes things a bit confusing. Isn't "destiny", in the earlier post, supposed to represent a course chosen by the individual (but forseen by God)? Rather than something that an individual cannot resist?

Applying a "connotative approach",so to speak, helps one to see the bad connotations of the word "doom", both as a noun and a verb, in everyday English. As a native English-speaker, I believe Bill better understands the connotations of such words than learners of English as a foreign language.
I think that I'm convinced that "destiny" is not necessarily a bad thing, like "Fate". For example, birth, marriage, death, success, etc and any course of events in our life is a destiny, not Fate.

In regards to the Arabic meaning of the English "fate", we say "Kadar" (pronounced with a hard /d/). Its meaning in Arabic culture is implied in a classical Arabic phrase we use in our colloquial language, which is equivalent to "the irony of fate" in English. As Muslims, in order for a person to be a good believer, they should believe in and never object to "fate,"- be it good or evil, simply because it is predetermined by Allah (God). This is one of the basic principles of faith ("Iman") in Sunnah. I do not know of something similar in Christianity that suggests this meaning.

"Destiny" is translated as "masir" (pronounced with long /i:/). I think it borders its meaning in English, because we choose the way that results in our "destiny", so to speak.

So what do you think?

[Nikhar]

Personally, I do believe in reincarnation. And I think it would do the world a lot of good if each and every person believed in it too. At least that way people would have a reason to do some good stuff.

[billl]

Applying a "connotative approach",so to speak, helps one to see the bad connotations of the word "doom", both as a noun and a verb, in everyday English. As a native English-speaker, I believe Bill better understands the connotations of such words than learners of English as a foreign language.
I think that I'm convinced that "destiny" is not necessarily a bad thing, like "Fate". For example, birth, marriage, death, success, etc and any course of events in our life is a destiny, not Fate.

In regards to the Arabic meaning of the English "fate", we say "Kadar" (pronounced with a hard /d/). Its meaning in Arabic culture is implied in a classical Arabic phrase we use in our colloquial language, which is equivalent to "the irony of fate" in English. As Muslims, in order for a person to be a good believer, they should believe in and never object to "fate,"- be it good or evil, simply because it is predetermined by Allah (God). This is one of the basic principles of faith ("Iman") in Sunnah. I do not know of something similar in Christianity that suggests this meaning.

"Destiny" is translated as "masir" (pronounced with long /i:/). I think it borders its meaning in English, because we choose the way that results in our "destiny", so to speak.

So what do you think?

This seems like it might be a good explanation. I guess everything falls into one of the two categories (fate or destiny)? Or are there events that are simply "chance" or "not so important"?

I don't know how these words might still be relevant to Bible scholars or in any particular branch of Christianity, unfortunately. The words "doom", "fate", and "destiny" are mostly familiar to me via literature, movies, adventure stories, etc. They suggest something pre-determined, but have different nuances/connotations.

I guess "fate" maybe sort of suggests a "story" that must be fulfilled in one's life, and is usually blamed as cause of some misfortune. "Doom" suggests that there is no hope of escape--really, it might simply suggest being in a hopeless position, moreso than it might suggest predetermination. "Destiny" sounds heroic: I am not familiar with Harry Potter, but I could imagine that he might be on occasion be told that he is "destined" to save everyone, etc.

[MarkBastable]

Personally, I do believe in reincarnation. And I think it would do the world a lot of good if each and every person believed in it too. At least that way people would have a reason to do some good stuff.

So without the threat of coming back as a dung beetle, you see no reason to do good stuff?

[Nikhar]

So without the threat of coming back as a dung beetle, you see no reason to do good stuff?

Lol... I was not talking about me. I was talking about the world as whole. My personal ambition is to help as many people as I can... but that's a different story.

I was referring to those people who live for themselves and themselves alone. Who believe we-get-life-only-once and live-it-as-full-you-can and who-the-hell-cares-about-others.

[Paulclem]

Lol... I was not talking about me. I was talking about the world as whole. My personal ambition is to help as many people as I can... but that's a different story.

I was referring to those people who live for themselves and themselves alone. Who believe we-get-life-only-once and live-it-as-full-you-can and who-the-hell-cares-about-others.

Hi Nikhar - where does that impulse come from? - if you don't mind me asking.

[Paulclem]

On the destiny, fate, doom ideas - in Buddhism to be doomed would be to continue to expereince rebirth, and not escape from Samsara -the world.

Fate has to be replaced by Karma which operates according to the mind at a particular time - negative - bad karma rises, good - vice versa.

Destiny - there are some Buddhas who have dedicated themselves to freeing all sentient beings, and so the positive aspect of destiny is that eventually all will be freed from suffering.