Do you believe in Reincarnation?

[sh_einstein]

Why should some people like The African people be born in poverty, why should some people suffer all their life and others don't.The only explanation that I can think of is REINCARNATION, that we all live many times and our situation in our next life depends on the things we have done in our past lives.But then what would Hell and Heaven mean, if we were about to be punished in our next lives?

[Dodo25]

Why should some people like The African people be born in poverty, why should some people suffer all their life and others don't.The only explanation that I can think of is REINCARNATION, that we all live many times and our situation in our next life depends on the things we have done in our past lives.But then what would Hell and Heaven mean, if we were about to be punished in our next lives?

So what you're basically saying is 'screw those starving children in Africa, they were a******s in their former lives and they deserve suffering?'

That's outrageous. I know you don't mean it that way, but you can't have it both ways.

Some people are going to suffer, others get lucky. That's just what you'd expect if there is no magic, kind-hearted and powerful being that takes care of it. All we can do is be thankful that we're alive, right now, in priviledged circumstances, and then use this feeling of thankfulness to make something with our live and do good, to ease the suffering of those who were born in unfortunate circumstances.

[dizzydoll]

This is a real big subject, but I believe you are correct in considering reincarnation. Its the only thing that makes sense to me too.

So what you're basically saying is 'screw those starving children in Africa, they were a******s in their former lives and they deserve suffering?'

In fact there are several reasons why this might occur but since we on earth know nothing about what happens to us after death, reincarnation makes the most sense. Reincarnation explains that we choose the life we are born into beforehand and we grow from the experience, as do others in compassion and empathy when dealing with the needy. Over and above that, people come back to face good and bad Karma so this makes it all the more important to leave this life with a clean slate, if not... its payback time next time round.

I would be interested to know what other peoples views are regarding condition as quoted by Dodo. Please dont bother with "its just coincidence" you were born in the North Pole and me in Africa, I'm wont buy that.

[MarkBastable]

So two posters suggest that reincarnation is the only explanation that 'makes sense', despite

a) a complete lack of evidence for it and
b) the availability of a much more likely explanation - to wit, that people tend to get born where their mothers happen to be at the time.

I'm prepared to bet* that when asked what evidence there is for reincarnation, someone cites an old book which says that reincarnation is the only explanation that makes sense. But that just pushes the question back a few hundred years.

So, to answer the original query - no, I don't. There's absolutely nothing in the world to suggest that reincarnation happens, and there's not a single apparent purpose for such a system, outside of "Well, it'd be neat because it'd make the world sort of fair."


*I'll bet my next life. And the one after that. Come on - you gotta like those odds.

[Dodo25]

And really, dogmatically insisting on the premise 'the universe must be fair' is not a way that produces any objective or useful results. Neither in science nor in philosophy.

[dizzydoll]

So bring feasible explanations as to why some are born to extreme poverty and suffer and others not? Dont just come with what you dispute, give me a reason for this occurrence? I am waiting....

[MarkBastable]

So bring feasible explanations as to why some are born to extreme poverty and suffer and others not? Dont just come with what you dispute, give me a reason for this occurrence? I am waiting....

Same reason some seeds fall into moist productive soil and and some fall onto the rocks; same reason some antelopes get eaten by lions and some don't; same reason some planets have atmospheres that support life and some are dead rocks.

Dumb luck, and the fact that the Earth doesn't give a damn about anything crawling on it.

[dizzydoll]

Same reason some seeds fall into moist productive soil and and some fall onto the rocks; same reason some antelopes get eaten by lions and some don't; same reason some planets have atmospheres that support life and some are dead rocks.

Dumb luck, and the fact that the Earth doesn't give a damn about anything crawling on it.

Your explanation sounds too much like coincidence for me, you had better come up with something better than that... nothing is a coincidence.

[MarkBastable]

Your explanation sounds too much like coincidence for me, you had better come up with something better than that... nothing is a coincidence.

A coincidence is the significant proximity in time or place of two or more events with no apparent shared cause. So where's the coincidence? What's coinciding?

[sixsmith]

Your explanation sounds too much like coincidence for me, you had better come up with something better than that... nothing is a coincidence.

Given that we have evidence for the kind of 'coincidence' to which Mark refers, surely the onus is on you to provide evidence of reincarnation?

[dizzydoll]

A coincidence is the significant proximity in time or place of two or more events with no apparent shared cause. So where's the coincidence? What's coinciding?

So why are some people born in poverty and suffering and others not? Your previous comment was all about dumb luck, it also smacks of coincidence, there is no such thing in either case.

Given that we have evidence for the kind of 'coincidence' to which Mark refers, surely the onus is on you to provide evidence of reincarnation?

Give me scientific proof that coincidences occur. Nothing is a coincidence in life, your parents were supposed to be yours, and mine mine etc,

[MarkBastable]

... your parents were supposed to be yours, and mine mine et....

Hang on. That's not proof of reincarnation existing. That's an effect reincarnation has if it exists. In order to say reincarnation is working , we need preceding evidence of it. An assumption that it's working is not that.

What you seem to mean is that nothing is random. In which case, you need to demonstrate that. If you think that nothing is just random, just dumb luck, perhaps you could present a hypothesis of how things would be different if things were random. So - that seems the next step in the debating process.

How would the world work observably differently if everything were random?

[Dodo25]

So bring feasible explanations as to why some are born to extreme poverty and suffer and others not? Dont just come with what you dispute, give me a reason for this occurrence? I am waiting....

Your explanation sounds too much like coincidence for me, you had better come up with something better than that... nothing is a coincidence.

For the sake of the argument, I'll grant you that 'coincidence' here means 'dumb luck'. I wasn't aware of the technical definition MB presented either.

Now why isn't it, even in principle, possible that some things have no higher reason than that they just happen, as a product of mindless physical forces acting on mindless matter?

It all comes down to the 'why' game:

Child: "Why is the sky blue?"

Parent: "Because it reflects light in a specific way that our brains interpret as 'blue'"

Child: "Why do our brains do that?"

Parent: "Presumably because it is the most efficient kind of software to navigate in the real world that could evolve. Blue is contrast to the green vegetation and the brown soil. Contrast is important for vision."

Child: "Why did this 'software' evolve?"

Parent: "Because individuals who happen to be born with genes that wire the brain closest to it have advantages in surviving."

Child: "Why do they have advantages in surviving?"

Parent: "I told you already, you're being circular. They have better contrast, hence they are quicker at identifying food or predators, which makes them, on average, live longer."

Child: "Okay but Why are there even predators, or food?"

Parent: "Because once upon a time, actually around 3.5 billion years ago, molecules self-assembled themselves to form a self-replicating macromolecule, a replicator. So this thing made copies of itself, and due to some slight mechanical errors ('mutations'), some copies were slightly better (or worse) at replicating. The ones better automatically became dominant, and the ones unsuited to their environment died out. This process produced all the life there is on earth."

Child: "Why did the molecules self-assemble themselves in such a specific way?"

Parent: "I assume just 'dumb luck'. There are billions of stars in our galaxy, and billions of galaxies in the universe. Many stars have planets, so there is plenty of room for combinatorial experiments. The forces of physics shuffled them, like marbles in a box, and even though the outcome was in this particular instance we're talking about 'improbable', it almost had to happen somewhere, given that there are so many molecules on so many planets."

Child: "Why do the laws of physics permit this to happen?"

Parent: "Here I'm entering dangerous territory not yet fully understood by science. But I, and many astrophysicists, assume that there are billions of universes as well. In some of them, the laws just happen to be a certain way, and obviously, in ours they were optimal for life, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about it (but similar creatures might be in another universe)."

Child: "Why might there be so many universes?"

Parent: "Because a 'vacuum' isn't completely empty. The concept of 'nothing' is a human construct. There are always tiniest particles popping in and out of existance, matter and anti-matter, normally it annihilates itself if the two appear together. Statistically, this happens every time with almost no exceptions. Big bangs, that create universes, are the exceptions, where matter, for some reason, comes to dominate anti-matter and for some reason starts to expand."

Child: "For some reason? What kind of explanation is that? WHY does it do this?"

Parent: "Stop asking me these questions, some things just happen the way they happen!"


Of course, that was a pretty smart child, luckily enough for most parents, a normal child would give up somewhere along the way because it doesn't understand the answers good enough to know what to ask for next.

Anyway, in the end, you always come down to things that 'just are'. Even the ones who believe in God assume that he 'just is'. The difference between a theistic world view and an atheistic one is just that the atheist is able to explain a lot more things before hiding behind the 'it just is', while the theist postulates the most improbable, complex, intelligent, and even caring and prayer answering being.

I hope I haven't gotten too off topic here. My main point is that even karma, reincarnation or 'god' requires 'dumb luck', and a huge amount more of it than the alternative of an indifferent cosmos.

[sixsmith]

Dizzy,

A coincidence is a concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection. I don't think this is what Mark is referring to. My parents were not supposed to be anything. Certain events transpired: I'm a product of those events. Similarly, the child born into poverty dies because he or she doesn't have enough clean drinking water. Cause and effect.

[dizzydoll]

Cause and effect.

Now we are getting somewhere, why is there a cause and effect? These two terms are most definitely related to Reincarnation.

Dodo, forget the stories my mate. Answer the question I posed, give me scientific proof for your reasoning as to why one child is born in poverty while another isnt.