Not Self and Reincarnation in Buddhism

[Paulclem]

If they do not, then Not-self is absolutely an accurate description.

I know what you're saying, but I am uncomfortable describing non sentient things as not self. Buddhism is quite precise about non-self referring to the falsly cognised self. In this sense trees etc do not cognise anything having no mind.

I'm thinking about this carefully because this precision is absolutely crucial to understanding, and I wouldn't want to give the wrong impression about such an important concept in Buddhism.

The thinking on it has clarified it for me though.

[NikolaiI]

Do you think Buddhism has not changed in the whole time it's been around? Of course not. In fact, if it had not, it would be utterly useless. Think about this. Also just use simple logic. Sure, in Buddhism Anatta is directed toward sentient beings. But - if a rock has no self, then it has no self, it is Anatta. In fact, this is understood in Buddhism. And it's one case where Western logic actually does work. A rock certainly does not have a self and not have a self. In fact, Paul - a rock is the constant, if it were an experiement. It is the very template. It is the absolute best and most logical fit of Anatta. It's how we might even understand Anatta.

Thinking about it has clarified it for me as well. To say that a rock has no self is the very same thing as to say it is Anatta, and it is a much more than necessary paragraph I just wrote to get at such a simple fact. There is no reason to deny that fact as far as I can tell, and it shows inflexibility when Buddhism in its real sense is very much a flexible religion. In fact that is one of the main points, that it is about understanding a dynamic and always-in-change universe; a better framework for understanding such a universe. It is why in Buddhist logic there are four possibilities as opposed to Western logic's two. Because in the Buddhist framework it is necessary to explain certain things. Like how I am the same person I was as a baby, yet I am also not. One never enter the same river twice.

[Paulclem]

I think the logic better fits non-self with sentient minds rather than non self for things with no-mind. It then points to the distinction between self and non-self, and I think that is the important distinction.

[Paulclem]

As far as Not self and reincarnation go together, just imagine the baggage from countless lives if there were such a continuation of something like a soul or personality. It is a positive boon - just imagine what you might remember - misery and heartache, bad deeds, birth ageing sickess and death. Perhaps it's a blessing not to know.

Apparenently though, it is possible to perceive one's previous lives through a particular meditation technique. This is not like regression or hypnosis, but a technique which systematically examines each moment of mind going back through this life and into previous ones.

HH The Dalia Lama described such a technique, but questioned the value of it. As with much Buddhist advice, it is seen as better to deal with the problems of here and now rather than dwell upon the unchanging and irreversible past.

[dizzydoll]

As far as Not self and reincarnation go together, just imagine the baggage from countless lives if there were such a continuation of something like a soul or personality. It is a positive boon - just imagine what you might remember - misery and heartache, bad deeds, birth ageing sickess and death. Perhaps it's a blessing not to know.

Apparenently though, it is possible to perceive one's previous lives through a particular meditation technique. This is not like regression or hypnosis, but a technique which systematically examines each moment of mind going back through this life and into previous ones.

HH The Dalia Lama described such a technique, but questioned the value of it. As with much Buddhist advice, it is seen as better to deal with the problems of here and now rather than dwell upon the unchanging and irreversible past.

I am now more confused with Buddhism than have ever been in the past. I thought Buddhists do NOT believe in reincarnation according to you, but here you say--read bold above--so am I understanding correctly, you wish to provide yet another word to replace regression/hypnosis. When will it all end? You confuse yourself with words.

And what of good memories then, is there no provision made for them? Do those ever see the light of day in Buddhism? --read bold above--

This wanton choice of living in suffering is really BS as well as controlling your desires... or rather attempt to control your desires, which is absolutely impossible and yet we have hundreds of thousands of Buddhists all restricting what is perfectly natural--to appease some dead-end philosophy. In my opinion this is the height of delusion and denial at the same time.

Paul, please when you get the chance please place a comment on the Tao Te Ching thread so I can add some inspiration afterwards when it comes to me. If I add one comment after another the Mods bunch them together and they lose all meaning. Apart from that it might be good for you to let this philosophy rest for a while, give your soul the little break it deserves.

[Paulclem]

I am now more confused with Buddhism than have ever been in the past. I thought Buddhists do NOT believe in reincarnation according to you, but here you say--read bold above--so am I understanding correctly, you wish to provide yet another word to replace regression/hypnosis. When will it all end? You confuse yourself with words.

And what of good memories then, is there no provision made for them? Do those ever see the light of day in Buddhism? --read bold above--

This wanton choice of living in suffering is really BS as well as controlling your desires... or rather attempt to control your desires, which is absolutely impossible and yet we have hundreds of thousands of Buddhists all restricting what is perfectly natural--to appease some dead-end philosophy. In my opinion this is the height of delusion and denial at the same time.

Paul, please when you get the chance please place a comment on the Tao Te Ching thread so I can add some inspiration afterwards when it comes to me. If I add one comment after another the Mods bunch them together and they lose all meaning. Apart from that it might be good for you to let this philosophy rest for a while, give your soul the little break it deserves.

Yes Buddhists believe in reincarnation - it is one of the basic tenets of Buddhism. I differs significantly from Hinduism in that it rejects the evoluionary aspect of reincarnation - fulfil your part and you will attain the next level - and states that reincarnation is dependant upon Karma arising at the time of death.

My references to regression and hypnosis were in regard to the "romantic" idea of reincarnation whereby humans are reincarnated as humans - often from significant historical figures - how many Napoleons? etc

In Buddhism reincarnation is a much scarier prospect - the danger that a person will be reincarnated as an animal, insect, hell being or hungry ghost, if they do not develop positive karma, is a real prospect.

Your reference to "wanton choice of living in suffering" is to misunderstand Buddhism. The Buddha's investigation of "life" resulted in his perception that living is suffering. It is a radical thought - especially when Buddhists claim that happiness in this life also constitutes suffering. The reason for this is that all happiness comes to an end. Take the happiest, richest, most fulfilled person in the world, and they will at the end really have to leave it all behind. Thus all their attachment their good fortune itself leads to suffering. In reality though, very few of us are in this position and experience rounds of fortune and misfortune throughout our lives.

In actual fact - it is not denial - you remember asking about that? - it is about facing up to reality as Buddhist see it.

Morbid? depressing? its funny how Buddhist are some of the happiest people i've met. why? because within the practice is a way to achieve balance within life - no unrealistic expectations and also no plunging into depression.

By the way, I won't be letting Buddhism alone. I've been a Buddhist for 20 years now. My group will be meeting tomorrow, and i will be very happily going along to it.

[dizzydoll]

Take the happiest, richest, most fulfilled person in the world, and they will at the end really have to leave it all behind. Thus all their attachment their good fortune itself leads to suffering. In reality though, very few of us are in this position and experience rounds of fortune and misfortune throughout our lives.

In actual fact - it is not denial - you remember asking about that? - it is about facing up to reality as Buddhist see it.

Morbid? depressing? its funny how Buddhist are some of the happiest people i've met. why? because within the practice is a way to achieve balance within life - no unrealistic expectations and also no plunging into depression.

By the way, I won't be letting Buddhism alone. I've been a Buddhist for 20 years now. My group will be meeting tomorrow, and i will be very happily going along to it.

Heavens alive Paul, not for one minute would I expect you to give up your faith of Buddhism.

In fact I was just beginning to think that I must be a Buddha too then, cos I am always happy. Happiness is a choice you see.

Oh about the money. I have money Paul and believe me I dont care for it that much that it'll upset me to leave it when I die. The vultures can have it, I dont give a damn for money. Money is a means to an end, its fun making it like its fun making a cake.. but we dont need to eat that cake, thats how I see money. In fact there is another idea I have to make a little more... for the fun, but this time I want someone by my side to share, I am just waiting for their response.

You shouldnt dislike money so much Paul, its not the moneys fault for the greed we see about, its the peoples fault for allowing it to consume them. Invariably whenever we are consumed by something it eludes us, so even those who dont have money become consumed with "lack of money" and therefore it eludes them.

[Paulclem]

Heavens alive Paul, not for one minute would I expect you to give up your faith of Buddhism.

In fact I was just beginning to think that I must be a Buddha too then, cos I am always happy. Happiness is a choice you see.

Oh about the money. I have money Paul and believe me I dont care for it that much that it'll upset me to leave it when I die. The vultures can have it, I dont give a damn for money. Money is a means to an end, its fun making it like its fun making a cake.. but we dont need to eat that cake, thats how I see money. In fact there is another idea I have to make a little more... for the fun, but this time I want someone by my side to share, I am just waiting for their response.

You shouldnt dislike money so much Paul, its not the moneys fault for the greed we see about, its the peoples fault for allowing it to consume them. Invariably whenever we are consumed by something it eludes us, so even those who dont have money become consumed with "lack of money" and therefore it eludes them.

I don't dislijke money at all - in fact I wish I'd got more of it. It's not about whether or not you have money - it's about attachment to it. A poor person can be as much - even more attached to money.

As for happiness - I'm glad you're happy - and I hope you always are - but the sad fact is that it is unlikely - not that I'm wishing bad luck upon you. It's just life.

And it's not just about these transient happinesses that we have. Buddhism says that there is a pervasive dissatisfaction with life - a feeling that things never go quite right - that the happiness we have is transient and shallow - that what we thought was true very often turns out to be not so.

Depressed? Me? No - because there is an explanation and a way to cope.

[dizzydoll]

Buddhism says that there is a pervasive dissatisfaction with life - a feeling that things never go quite right - that the happiness we have is transient and shallow - that what we thought was true very often turns out to be not so.

Depressed? Me? No - because there is an explanation and a way to cope.

I dont see it like that Paul, I am not dissatisfied with life at all because there is always a reason for everything.. I just dont need to know "it" or understand it at this time. From an early life I began looking for answers because I figured they would provide some perspective for what takes place in our lives. It took me many years to realise, we dont need to know why.. we just need to "accept" there is a deeper reason for all things. From the moment I let go, my life did around about turn.

The "why" is no longer relative in my life... allowing the universe the first move is and sometimes its uncomfortable, sometimes we cry but.. but... but, there is always a reason and it will be revealed. Just knowing this makes it easier. Certain things that made NO sense to me while I was growing up... now make perfect sense. Thats why I say, happiness is a choice, let the universe do what it must... all will be revealed in good time.

[Paulclem]

I dont see it like that Paul, I am not dissatisfied with life at all because there is always a reason for everything.. I just dont need to know "it" or understand it at this time. From an early life I began looking for answers because I figured they would provide some perspective for what takes place in our lives. It took me many years to realise, we dont need to know why.. we just need to "accept" there is a deeper reason for all things. From the moment I let go, my life did around about turn.

The "why" is no longer relative in my life... allowing the universe the first move is and sometimes its uncomfortable, sometimes we cry but.. but... but, there is always a reason and it will be revealed. Just knowing this makes it easier. Certain things that made NO sense to me while I was growing up... now make perfect sense. Thats why I say, happiness is a choice, let the universe do what it must... all will be revealed in good time.

There's no arguing with your personal beliefs. If they hold up for you then fine. i was just stating the Buddhist viewpoint.

[dizzydoll]

Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)
Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed and in such desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. It is not important that he should mature as soon as an apple tree or an oak. Shall he turn his spring into summer?--Ch. 18, Walden

[Paulclem]

They may be fine words, but alone they don't sustain a person in difficult times. You commented earlier about Buddhism being "some dead end philosophy".

Although this forum is about words and texts, which Buddhism has for instruction, Buddhism is actually about the practice and application of the teachings through meditation, reflection, contemplation and application.

It is said in the teachings that merely learning the theory is no good, but the practice is the essence. From providing an antidote to anger to realising the ultimate nature of reality, Buddha's practices provide a way through this. This practical application doesn't come through on a forum, but that really is the point of it.

Of course, you don't have to accept this - no-one has to. I'm just trying to address what I see as a misconception you may have about the teachings.

[dizzydoll]

I am sure the teachings of Buddha are sound Paul, I dont recall saying it was a dead end philosophy, if I did please forgive me. I have a friend who would be horrified at me calling Buddhism a dead end philosophy. Perhaps I find some of Buddha's restrictions unrealistic but for the most part Buddha taught compassion and kindness above all. Those words from Thoreau are just a bit of light hearted fun, not intended to disrespect your thread or Buddha.

[Paulclem]

No worries. I'm choosing to engage in discussion so no problem. Being positive is definately a good policy. I wouldn't disagree. My provisos are Buddhist, but I don't expect them to be yours.

I perhaps come across as a bit teacher-y. It's just that I'm trying to be consistent with the values of Buddhism when I'm on about it, and trying to be precise.

[dizzydoll]

You know Paul, I am far more inclined to trust and relate to people who have some kind of belief, rather than those who have none. It doesnt matter what their belief is, be it Christian, Hindu, Buddhism, Taoism etc... this shows me that they have the ability to believe something outside of their ego-selves. For me, those who believe nothing are as shallow as that word "nothing", they are also party-poopers, and doubting Thomas'. I've never fared too well with critical people either thats why I dont discuss religion with anyone outside of the net..

So, Buddhism rocks and it gives you encouragement to grow as an individual on a spiritual level, thats all that counts really. I enjoy Taoism because its philosophy is so simple. I came across the Tao first time with a CD I purchased from Dr. Wayne Dyer. I'm also totally committed to the Law of Attraction, until I came upon those CD's I had been aware of "cause and effect" and how your thoughts make who you are... after all thats not a new philosophy by any means.. the Buddhists and Hindu's have been aware of this for years, they just didnt seem to focus much attention on it.

I knew someone who couldnt stand any "Knew Age" stuff as he called it. lol. Funny how people are, they get stuck in the past with past teachers like Alan Watts, and nothing can budge them to accept any new teachers. Too bad if Dyer or Hicks is New Age, their message is valuable for those who care to know more.



edited to add: Please put a comment on the Tao Te Ching thread so I can post another after you Paul.