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Thread: Could someone help me understand "classic" literature

  1. #31
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    unfortunately the same could be said of someone who claims Twain and Steinbeck don't have breadth

    I would question that assertion as well. The fact that Shakespeare is the greater writer and that I personally enjoy his work more than Twain or Steinbeck in no way should be mistaken for a suggestion that Twain or Steinbeck are poor or minor writers. I Once loved Steinbeck... although now I would probably lean more toward Hemingway's and Flannery O'Connor's short stories and Faulkner's novels. Neither do I question Twain's achievements... although I lean far more toward Poe, Hawthorne, Emerson, Melville, and their heirs.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    Whilst you do not need to like all the classics, you need to appreciate them.

    What does that mean?

    I don't like Bob Dylan but a lot of people do. Does that mean I need to appreciate his music? I mean he did have a huge influence over a lot of other musicians.


    What that means is that there is a difference between saying "I don't like Bob Dylan" and "Bob Dylan sucks. He can't sing, and his lyrics are atrocious."

    Taken with regard to literature, saying "Shakespeare is boring" pretty much cuts you off from ever wanting to read his work again... after all, if his works are boring, why would you want to waste your time? Merely admitting, however, that Shakespeare has not resonated with you leaves open the very real possibility that you may eventually come around to liking him.
    That makes sense. I actually heard a good Bob Dylan song the other day. It took me by surprise.

  3. #33
    in angulo cum libro Petrarch's Love's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt View Post
    After yet another year of clashing with my English teachers and their curriculum choices, I am fed up. I have been told year after year that these stories were top of the line and that they would inspire/move me. Year after year they have not lived up to this standard. Is it the books? The teachers? Or is it me? In any case I'd like to know what exactly sets these books and authors above the others. Any help or constructive critiscm is appreciated.

    Oh and a few examples of the authors giving me trouble. Hawthorne, Alighieri, Shakespeare, Wharton, and C.S. Lewis.
    I have enjoyed Orwell, Twain, and Steinbeck.
    Leland--I think there are two points here that others have brought up as well. One is that it is possible that some of these authors just aren't your personal cup of tea and, as others have said, there is no reason you have to love any particular writer. At the same time, as others have pointed out, literary tastes and appreciations change a lot as people grow and learn and experience things in life, and it's possible that, for any number of imaginable reasons, you simply aren't at a place in your life now that allows you to appreciate these works. I say this partly because you are clearly still in high school and I've found that many people at your age don't yet appreciate some of the writers you mention but do develop an appreciation later in life. I don't mean by this to suggest that you aren't well read or a committed and intelligent young person, but time and experience simply do make a difference, so you probably haven't reached the same point as you will have as a well read person ten years from now. I am similarly aware that well read people ten or twenty years older than myself have acquired certain insights and ways of appreciating literature that I just don't have access to at this point in my life. So, it's less a matter of whether you're grown up enough or not and more a matter of the fact that we are all always learning, and I would also say something similar to someone of almost any age who was having trouble getting into these authors. The writers that speak to us most may change throughout our lives and there are some works that won't mean anything to a person now that they will have a deep appreciation for ten years from now, whether because of their own life experience, or their development as a reader, or the introduction of new ideas or ways of appreciating the world during that time. So, you may not like some of these things now, but may find yourself liking them in the future (or not...who knows). I know this has been true for me.

    I would add to this that, regardless of what your personal opinion of these works is (and that is your own), there is a reason that they are on your class syllabus. They are works that really have succeeded in moving, entertaining, changing huge numbers of people for hundreds of years now, and even if they are not to your taste, it may be worth giving them a closer look to see if you can't understand why they have had this great appeal to generations of people. The way I think about it is in terms of a distinction between liking something and respecting something. There are plenty of books and authors that I don't really like or identify with but I respect them for their artistic merit, for the insights into human behavior they deal with etc. For example, I can't say that I really like Faulkner. I don't identify with his themes, I don't know that I really like his plots or his characters in the way I enjoy other works. When I first read him I think I actually threw The Sound and the Fury across the room in frustration. However, I realized that there were other people who were getting something profound out of Faulkner and that interested me. I made myself read his works with real attention in an effort to see if I could understand anything of what the appeal was. As a result I developed a very real appreciation of Faulkner's use of language, and the things he does with narrative are amazing. I also discovered that part of what I do find interesting in his work is the fact that I don't identify with his themes or his characters. Part of what we can get out of a well written work of literature is the reward of both facing the challenge of struggling with and really understanding a work that is not one that you are naturally inclined toward and, along with this, of gaining insight into the concerns and workings of a mind that is very unlike your own. I still don't know that I would say I necessarily like Faulkner, but I have found things that I respect about his work, a respect that comes from a genuine appreciation of certain aspects of his writing and thinking. So, I would begin by framing your question much less in terms of only what you like and think in terms also of what you can have respect for and learn from without necessarily finding that it suits your own personal taste.

    All of this, however, is a very large level response. There's really no way to address your question adequately without knowing what it is about these authors that is turning you off, and the only way to know that is to talk about the literature itself. I'm a college literature instructor who specializes in Medieval and Renaissance literature, so of your list of writers you're not too keen on, I'm most familiar with Dante and Shakespeare. If you like, post a passage from something you've read by one of those two and tell us all what it is you don't like or don't get about that passage. This will be a better way for myself and others on the thread to address what particular problems you are having with these writers and their poetry.

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  4. #34
    Registered User Leland Gaunt's Avatar
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    Leland--I think there are two points here that others have brought up as well. One is that it is possible that some of these authors just aren't your personal cup of tea and, as others have said, there is no reason you have to love any particular writer. At the same time, as others have pointed out, literary tastes and appreciations change a lot as people grow and learn and experience things in life, and it's possible that, for any number of imaginable reasons, you simply aren't at a place in your life now that allows you to appreciate these works. I say this partly because you are clearly still in high school and I've found that many people at your age don't yet appreciate some of the writers you mention but do develop an appreciation later in life. I don't mean by this to suggest that you aren't well read or a committed and intelligent young person, but time and experience simply do make a difference, so you probably haven't reached the same point as you will have as a well read person ten years from now. I am similarly aware that well read people ten or twenty years older than myself have acquired certain insights and ways of appreciating literature that I just don't have access to at this point in my life. So, it's less a matter of whether you're grown up enough or not and more a matter of the fact that we are all always learning, and I would also say something similar to someone of almost any age who was having trouble getting into these authors. The writers that speak to us most may change throughout our lives and there are some works that won't mean anything to a person now that they will have a deep appreciation for ten years from now, whether because of their own life experience, or their development as a reader, or the introduction of new ideas or ways of appreciating the world during that time. So, you may not like some of these things now, but may find yourself liking them in the future (or not...who knows). I know this has been true for me.

    I would add to this that, regardless of what your personal opinion of these works is (and that is your own), there is a reason that they are on your class syllabus. They are works that really have succeeded in moving, entertaining, changing huge numbers of people for hundreds of years now, and even if they are not to your taste, it may be worth giving them a closer look to see if you can't understand why they have had this great appeal to generations of people. The way I think about it is in terms of a distinction between liking something and respecting something. There are plenty of books and authors that I don't really like or identify with but I respect them for their artistic merit, for the insights into human behavior they deal with etc. For example, I can't say that I really like Faulkner. I don't identify with his themes, I don't know that I really like his plots or his characters in the way I enjoy other works. When I first read him I think I actually threw The Sound and the Fury across the room in frustration. However, I realized that there were other people who were getting something profound out of Faulkner and that interested me. I made myself read his works with real attention in an effort to see if I could understand anything of what the appeal was. As a result I developed a very real appreciation of Faulkner's use of language, and the things he does with narrative are amazing. I also discovered that part of what I do find interesting in his work is the fact that I don't identify with his themes or his characters. Part of what we can get out of a well written work of literature is the reward of both facing the challenge of struggling with and really understanding a work that is not one that you are naturally inclined toward and, along with this, of gaining insight into the concerns and workings of a mind that is very unlike your own. I still don't know that I would say I necessarily like Faulkner, but I have found things that I respect about his work, a respect that comes from a genuine appreciation of certain aspects of his writing and thinking. So, I would begin by framing your question much less in terms of only what you like and think in terms also of what you can have respect for and learn from without necessarily finding that it suits your own personal taste.

    All of this, however, is a very large level response. There's really no way to address your question adequately without knowing what it is about these authors that is turning you off, and the only way to know that is to talk about the literature itself. I'm a college literature instructor who specializes in Medieval and Renaissance literature, so of your list of writers you're not too keen on, I'm most familiar with Dante and Shakespeare. If you like, post a passage from something you've read by one of those two and tell us all what it is you don't like or don't get about that passage. This will be a better way for myself and others on the thread to address what particular problems you are having with these writers and their poetry.
    As I have thought about it more I have come to realize that it has more to do with the way it is being taught, now I don't want to demonize my teachers for they are quite passionate but that is part of the problem. They build up my expectations and they inevitably fail to meet the high hopes I had for the books. It also has to do with how assignments are given. We are given x number of pages to read. We are also told to pay special attention to certain parts of the assignment. So I read and reread that section. Next day in class I have to sit through first a student and then the teacher (who is melodramatic and likes to perform her own little one woman plays) go through the same passage and it quickly becomes both tedious and redundant. Sometimes we are given problems almost in equation form, person x has come to conclusion z, tell me y, so x+y=z. Or this(x) symbolizes that (z), tell me why (y). I'm so busy looking for the "right" answers that I don't take the time to enjoy the characters, setting or anything else that would emotionally involve me within the story. Consequently I have been so turned off of a few works that the likelihood of me ever picking it up again at a later date to see if my opinion of it has changed, is very unlikely.
    Dante is the exception here, as I read it on my own time. As I have mentioned before Dante was one of my first poems, in fact the first that went beyond 2 pages. Also, it is hard for me to relate to any of the moral lessons which seemed either basic (don't kill), or petty (don't give bad advice). Then again I could be completely missing deeper points and underlying themes. And then there was the occasional silliness. Like how the 2 of the 3 mouths of the devil are spending eternity gnawing on Cassius and Brutus. That was almost as bad as Tolstoy's concept of history in War and Peace.
    On the overall I find myself drifting away from taking novels and fiction seriously. In fiction, I now tend towards stories with lots of adventure, maybe with an overarching theme of power but that is not the real reason I read it. I prefer philosophy and political theory for my serious reading.
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  5. #35
    aspiring Arthurianist Wilde woman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt View Post
    Sometimes we are given problems almost in equation form, person x has come to conclusion z, tell me y, so x+y=z. Or this(x) symbolizes that (z), tell me why (y). I'm so busy looking for the "right" answers that I don't take the time to enjoy the characters, setting or anything else that would emotionally involve me within the story.
    Well, that's certainly a reductionist approach to literature. So I can see why you would get frustrated.

    But as others have already said, it really takes time, experience, and effort to appreciate the "really old stuff", as my students call medieval and Classical literature. I'm glad you're learning to like Dante. And as I've learned, you don't need to be Christian to appreciate him.
    Ecce quam bonum et jocundum, habitares libros in unum!
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  6. #36
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Reading a book of classics demands of us, first and foremost, great perseverance or else we never can appreciate them. The first great classic I read was Milton's Paradise Lost and I did not like the book until I read it 10 times. Now I do not have to read ten times to comprehend a classic for now I am mature enough to understand the classics, and I can enjoy them better. I read the classics then out of my inquisitiveness thinking that the philosophy that there must be mystifyingly gratifying. Now I read it for its great theme and poetic beauty, aesthetic excellence. Everything gratifies me of it. I read Ulysses, notwithstanding the fact that I dropped the book losing patience so many times, yet I always thought that there is a splendor there in the book, an artistic beauty unfound in most books, something novel, ingenious and of course full of mind's eye. While flicking through half of the book I found not a single sentence or theme redundant. Everything is well packed, well written, and phrased and if I cannot comprehend the book it is my slipup, or my erudition is wanting and of course I have to hone my ability. When we fail to fathom the complexity of a book we must think we will have to perfect our competence rather than blaming the text. As a student we generally tend to blame the authorities recommending the syllabus. But we forget our incompetence

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt View Post
    @spooky-Ugh its a never ending circle. lol
    @stluke- I understand that reading can introduce you to new ideas, but in Dante's case they were for the most part the lessons of my childhood (raised a Roman Catholic) but with more detail.Though I still have my doubts you have convinced me to study poetry more intensively, and revisit the Divine Comedy. As for recommendations, if you happen to know of any prominent anarchist theorists that would be great. I'd like to once again apologize to anyone I got snappy with, I regret doing so. This seems to have quickly devolved into an irritable me ranting at people over the internet.
    Dante have little to do with modern Roman Catholic, his catholicism is medieval and does not help much that he mixes classical literature in his Comedy. And I am atheist (not agnostic atheist, I am no chimera) and I have been reading Dante since I was a kid. Simple because reducing Dante to the christianism is the biggest mistake one can do. There is plenty of themes who are universal and the religious allegory (the simple fact they are an allegory should help anyone to free them to the exactly particular original significance) is just a aspect of it.
    When I think about text interpretation, I think about Dante and his four interpretative layers. If I think about reading love, Dante and his classicism. If I think about influence, Dante and Virgil. If think about friendship, Dante and Virgil again. If I think about idealist love, Dante and Beatrice. Democratization of literature, Dante and his decision to abandon latim. And of course, his main theme, which is love for reason and philosophy. None of those are somehow limited to the catholic from 700 years ago writer, so I have no idea how any experience but the experience of reading it matters.

  8. #38
    Registered User keilj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love View Post

    I would add to this that, regardless of what your personal opinion of these works is (and that is your own), there is a reason that they are on your class syllabus. They are works that really have succeeded in moving, entertaining, changing huge numbers of people for hundreds of years now
    The same could be said of lesser-known works by Twain, Fitzgerald, so on. In fact, it could probably be said tenfold if these lesser-known works had been included on more syllabi - instead of the same old "cornerstone books" being included time and time and time again

  9. #39
    Registered User kelby_lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spookymulder93 View Post
    What does that mean?

    I don't like Bob Dylan but a lot of people do. Does that mean I need to appreciate his music? I mean he did have a huge influence over a lot of other musicians.
    'Appreciate' means that although you might not necessarily count the book as a favourite but you understand the technical achievements/its place in a literary movement/its influence...etc. So although you may not enjoy the book as a whole, you can appreciate that it is of some merit.

    I don't like Dylan's voice but I can appreciate his lyrics. If you are unable to appreciate any classic, you miss out. Granted you may not have time to read a certain work as the subject matter does not appeal but you shouldn't badmouth it.

  10. #40
    Registered User Leland Gaunt's Avatar
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    Reading a book of classics demands of us, first and foremost, great perseverance or else we never can appreciate them. The first great classic I read was Milton's Paradise Lost and I did not like the book until I read it 10 times. Now I do not have to read ten times to comprehend a classic for now I am mature enough to understand the classics, and I can enjoy them better. I read the classics then out of my inquisitiveness thinking that the philosophy that there must be mystifyingly gratifying. Now I read it for its great theme and poetic beauty, aesthetic excellence. Everything gratifies me of it. I read Ulysses, notwithstanding the fact that I dropped the book losing patience so many times, yet I always thought that there is a splendor there in the book, an artistic beauty unfound in most books, something novel, ingenious and of course full of mind's eye. While flicking through half of the book I found not a single sentence or theme redundant. Everything is well packed, well written, and phrased and if I cannot comprehend the book it is my slipup, or my erudition is wanting and of course I have to hone my ability. When we fail to fathom the complexity of a book we must think we will have to perfect our competence rather than blaming the text. As a student we generally tend to blame the authorities recommending the syllabus. But we forget our incompetence
    The authors are not perfect, you are holding them up to an undeserved status. In my mind anyway. This may just be me but if I read a book 10 times, I would force myself to like it. That way I wouldn't feel as if I just wasted an enormous amount of time.
    Dante have little to do with modern Roman Catholic, his catholicism is medieval and does not help much that he mixes classical literature in his Comedy. And I am atheist (not agnostic atheist, I am no chimera) and I have been reading Dante since I was a kid. Simple because reducing Dante to the christianism is the biggest mistake one can do. There is plenty of themes who are universal and the religious allegory (the simple fact they are an allegory should help anyone to free them to the exactly particular original significance) is just a aspect of it.
    When I think about text interpretation, I think about Dante and his four interpretative layers. If I think about reading love, Dante and his classicism. If I think about influence, Dante and Virgil. If think about friendship, Dante and Virgil again. If I think about idealist love, Dante and Beatrice. Democratization of literature, Dante and his decision to abandon latim. And of course, his main theme, which is love for reason and philosophy. None of those are somehow limited to the catholic from 700 years ago writer, so I have no idea how any experience but the experience of reading it matters.
    It's funny how medieval catholicism influences modern catholicism. Maybe this stems from the fact that I haven't studied the book in a scholarly manner but I'm having a hard time figuring out what your trying to say. What kind of love? Influence over what? I have read of far more convincing friendships. Idealist love, if I wanted to see any of that I'd just take a quick trip to the junior high school. Why should I have to put up with it in classic literature? Whatever trails he blazed outside of the book does not make up for shortcomings within the book. I see little reasoning employed within The Divine Comedy.Philosophy? Seemed like pretty standard issue stuff to me. And my experience of reading it was unpleasant, that is how I judged it, as an unpleasant reading experience.
    Also, if you are not agnostic atheist what are you: explicit, ignostic, Theravedic Buddhist, what?
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  11. #41
    Registered User keilj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt View Post
    The authors are not perfect, you are holding them up to an undeserved status. In my mind anyway. This may just be me but if I read a book 10 times, I would force myself to like it. That way I wouldn't feel as if I just wasted an enormous amount of time.
    I have to agree

    If something has to be read 10 times before it can be enjoyed - I would question how good that work really is.

    I can understand trying a book, and perhaps having to make a 2nd or 3rd pass at it to realize that you really like it, or that it is good.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by keilj View Post
    I have to agree

    If something has to be read 10 times before it can be enjoyed - I would question how good that work really is.

    I can understand trying a book, and perhaps having to make a 2nd or 3rd pass at it to realize that you really like it, or that it is good.
    2 times maybe. If I don't like it on the second time then it's time to move on. Life is too short to waste that much time.

  13. #43
    Multiple readings are essential for most classic texts, especially in poetry. Of course I go by Wilde's saying that if a book is not worth reading more than once, it is not worth reading at all. Great works tend to naturally yield to us their secrets (as it were) over time, as we mature certainly and get the life experience that is often important, not just to necessarily understand the text, but to be able to really feel what a work is transmitting to us.

    I'm sorry but to dismiss the likes of Dante after a brief read is not to have read him at all. I've only read the Commedia once with notes in one translation and I fully understand that I have hardly done more than scratch the surface here. I've read Paradise Lost about four times completely and always dip into it from time to time, and likewise, I probably have nothing much more than a foothold. You really can't be hasty with these sorts of works, they are lifetime reads for many people. Not getting something from epic works such as these is hardly anyone's fault, not a teacher's or a student's, but is simply part of the investment needed to appreciate such works. With works such as these we are all little better than eternal students.
    Last edited by LitNetIsGreat; 05-19-2010 at 03:45 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt View Post
    It's funny how medieval catholicism influences modern catholicism.
    Of course, but its not the same at all. Most modern Catholics have no knowledge of Dante at all to replace the experience to reading.

    Maybe this stems from the fact that I haven't studied the book in a scholarly manner but I'm having a hard time figuring out what your trying to say. What kind of love?
    Love for literature, its a major theme on Dante and nothing a modern catholic family represents.


    Influence over what?
    The notion of past authors influence is also a major example of what you find in Dante.

    I have read of far more convincing friendships.
    The point is that you haven't "read" this friendship.

    Idealist love, if I wanted to see any of that I'd just take a quick trip to the junior high school.
    Sure, and there Lady Gaga and Dan Brown may be found.

    Why should I have to put up with it in classic literature?
    It happens you know, some authors that became classic wrote about it. Of course, that Beatrice is the most famous muse of all literature must have no bearing on that.

    Whatever trails he blazed outside of the book does not make up for shortcomings within the book.
    You mean you could not see it. Sometimes it happens, I do not see something in a book, then i Notice the undeniable historical influence of the book and I do not need to ask, It was my problem.

    I see little reasoning employed within The Divine Comedy.
    Philosophy? Seemed like pretty standard issue stuff to me.
    So standard that you saw little of it.

    And my experience of reading it was unpleasant, that is how I judged it, as an unpleasant reading experience.
    So, why were you upset with Stlukes? He was right, the question was you or your experience.

    Also, if you are not agnostic atheist what are you: explicit, ignostic, Theravedic Buddhist, what?

    Just atheist.

  15. #45
    Voice of Chaos & Anarchy
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    I suspect that your problems with your literature courses are with the teacher. It souldn't be surprising that someone doesn't like Hawthorne; he wasn't that good of a writer, and his writings have not aged well. He should be taught as someone who served an important place in making American literature something of substance. Poe didn't like Hawthorne, and the two were contemporaries. As I recall high school literature, it was set up to show development in literature styles and types. If the teacher doesn't really understand that, then the course would be horrible. In college courses there will be more authors that aren't very good, but they are supposed to be important; although no on can clearly explain why they are important. You'll have to get used to Shakespeare. I agree that he isn't all that good, but for something written 400 years ago, it isn't all that bad, except for some of the history plays.

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