Could someone help me understand "classic" literature

[Leland Gaunt]

After yet another year of clashing with my English teachers and their curriculum choices, I am fed up. I have been told year after year that these stories were top of the line and that they would inspire/move me. Year after year they have not lived up to this standard. Is it the books? The teachers? Or is it me? In any case I'd like to know what exactly sets these books and authors above the others. Any help or constructive critiscm is appreciated.

Oh and a few examples of the authors giving me trouble. Hawthorne, Alighieri, Shakespeare, Wharton, and C.S. Lewis.
I have enjoyed Orwell, Twain, and Steinbeck.

[mtpspur]

I'm with you on Wharton. A duller book then Ethan Frome is hard to come by. As to Hawthorne a duller boyfriend to wear a Scarlet Letter for could not be found. C. S. Lewis reads better if you have a background in Christian doctrines or much head scratching will ensue. I'm a cranky dinosaur so Shakspeare does not have the magic that others see in him but his sense of having a feel for the popular entertainments and what motivates mankind keep his plays moving along. I tend to enjoy his villians better then his heroes. Never read Dante and have never been tempted. Personally I prefer Haggard or Dickens or Stevenson WHEN the mood strikes me. Hope this helps.

[tiredstudent]

hawthorne is an incredibly difficult author to understand, so no hard feelings there. C.S. Lewis, i enjoyed... but to each his own i guess. Shakespeare? those are PLAYS, and were always meant to be seen, not read. Reading them takes the life right out of the play and leaves it dull and boring and confusing. Go see a good shakespeare play... maybe it can kindle a 'shakespeare fire'...lol

[billl]

I think Shakespeare probably could move or inspire you if you read the right play AND could get into the language of it. Dante is also wrapped in a language issue. Both of these are written as poetry. On top of that, Dante is translated, and refers to people and religious themes you might not know much about.

So, for the Shakespeare, I had to get into the new words and the different sort of language/structure of the sentences. Getting better at THAT has to become enjoyable, something interesting in itself, in my opinion. Perhaps you have worked along those lines, and have even gotten the hang of how to read it and understand what's going on pretty well, but you still don't like Shakespeare? But if the language is obstructing the story or overly-frustrating, then I'd suggest it might be worth the effort to stick with it and get the hang of it. And maybe see a play, or movie adaptation.

I'm guessing you are in high school. I read Dante in the university in a class that was simply about Dante. It was a while ago, but it was really great--but maybe having an interesting professor go through it with the class helped a lot--in fact, I am sure it did. As far as being inspiring or moving, well, maybe it was here or there, but I was mostly impressed by how much there was in those books, what things might 'mean', and with just how incredibly visual it often was.

[stlukesguild]

Leland... I'm sorry, but it's you. Dante, Shakespeare, Hawthorne, etc... are among some of greatest writers... indeed Shakespeare and Dante virtually divide Western literature between them. The problem, however, is that any art form is essentially a language... and that language and its vocabulary must be learned and understood before you can really begin to appreciate it. After having read any number of older works of prose and poetry I laugh at the notion that Shakespeare... let alone Hawthorne... is difficult to read. But as with most things in life, practice makes perfect. Shakespeare and Dante both place far greater demands upon the average reader (demands that are more than rewarded) that are not as challenging as more recognizable language found in the work of many more recent writers... or the works of the writers most of us grew up reading as children... and many of the works of the more commercially popular writers. Of course I might add that it could also be the teacher (although as a teacher myself I probably shouldn't make such suppositions). A good teacher should attempt to instill a love of reading in you... should help you to develop a grasp of older prose and poetic forms... but ultimately it is up to the individual and you must decide whether the pleasure to be gained is worth the struggle. You can certainly stick with Harry Potter and Dan Brown and other writers that pander to the audience with easy art... just as you can stick with Lady Gaga or the latest summer block-buster and avoid music or film or art that might demand a bit more of you... art that might challenge you... art that might avoid the usual cliches. The decision is yours.

You mention having liked Steinbeck and Twain... both good writers... but not the and breadth of Shakespeare and Dante. Don't be quick to give up on them. At the same time... don't assume that your first opinions are your last. As you grow and gain in experience... including the experience of reading... you may find your opinions change. For now I would advise you to build off those writers among the "classics" that you do admire. Look into Hemingway's stories, Poe's tales, Yevgeny Zamyatin's We, Dickens' Tale of Two Cities, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky (start with the short stories), Aldus Huxley. Also seek out the best examples of whatever genre you like to read: science-fiction, mysteries, ghost stories, etc... But every so many books... challenge yourself; try some poetry or perhaps Lewis Carroll in order to develop a love of language. Pick up a Greek play or one by Shakespeare and push your self and your expectations.

While I am on this, I might point out that the idea that Shakespeare should be seen performed and not read is absolutely absurd. His mastery of language, the difficulty of some of his concepts and metaphors, his use of word play, etc... are all best served through reading. Seeing a good live performance, on the other hand, can certainly help to pull things together... and lead to a better concept of the flow of the language.

[Leland Gaunt]

@mtpspur- Yes it does help, there is at least someone else out there that shares some of my opinion.
@billl and tiredstudent- You bring up a fair point I will make sure to go see a play of his.
@stlukesguild-
Your passion is great. But then again so is mine, reading has been a central component of my life for as long as I can remember, whether it was reading Greek mythology with my grandmother, or tackling books like Little Women and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea in grade school. I hate to sound as if I am bragging, but reading is my passion. So please do not reduce me to Dan Brown and Harry Potter right off the bat, and by no means am I a fan of Lady GaGa or for that matter anything that is played on the radio. I think any discussion between the two of us will be much more productive if you don't make rash assumptions of who I am. Thank you. In regards to Dante, I really don't find myself identifying with any themes within Dante as I am an agnostic atheist, and find most everything within that poem to be petty and depressing. On the other hand I think that I will give Shakespeare another go. I have already read War and Peace, Dickens has been a consistent figure in English classes, I like Poe's poetry, Crime and Punishment is on my summer reading list, and I will look into the others that you have mentioned. In regards to genres, I am a long time fantasy fan and my favorites are Martin, Abercombie, Rothfuss, and Lovecraft. Recently though I've been reading philosophy and political theory: Nietschze, Marx, Locke, Mill, Hobbes, Paine, and Shapiro so far. I'd be happy to receive any recommendations.

[spookymulder93]

Just because everyone else loves it doesn't mean you have to. Enjoying a work is subjective. That's like me telling you that Beethoven is more enjoyable than Black Sabbath, which would be a total lie.

[Leland Gaunt]

I agree, but my grade is dependent on my ability to interpret it just like my teacher. I also have to be able to stay awake while writing my 3rd essay of the week about the novel and what various symbols supposedly mean.

[spookymulder93]

I agree, but my grade is dependent on my ability to interpret it just like my teacher. I also have to be able to stay awake while writing my 3rd essay of the week about the novel and what various symbols supposedly mean.

You're going to do A LOT of stuff that you don't want to do in school. Actually, you're going to have to do A LOT of stuff that you don't want to do in life.

What that means is fake an interest in it or at least enough interest to get you a passing grade and never look at the novel ever again.

[Leland Gaunt]

Oh is that so, am I going to have to things I don't want to in life. Things like working 30 hour weekends for the past 10 months, sacrificing your social life so you can go to college. Forcing yourself to drudge through school for 35 hours a week, a school that offers 2 classes that even interest you mildly. Coming home to yet another parental disagreement, and only falling asleep after the caffeine, that you are addicted to, wears off. And waking up 4 and half hours later to do it all again. I have by no means lived the hardest life, but then again it hasn't exactly shown itself to be a cakewalk. I am not asking for sympathy or pity just some advice. I posted here to see if perhaps I had been missing something that could help me get through English class, and in fact I have been given some reasonable advice (thank you first three to respond) but some feel the need to dole out advice that would be considered patronizing even to a 12 year old. I'll thank you to keep your life lessons to yourself.

Edit: Sorry if I'm acting defensive. Just feeling a little on edge tonight.

[spookymulder93]

Oh is that so, am I going to have to things I don't want to in life. Things like working 30 hour weekends for the past 10 months, sacrificing your social life so you can go to college. Forcing yourself to drudge through school for 35 hours a week, a school that offers 2 classes that even interest you mildly. Coming home to yet another parental disagreement, and only falling asleep after the caffeine, that you are addicted to, wears off. And waking up 4 and half hours later to do it all again. I have by no means lived the hardest life, but then again it hasn't exactly shown itself to be a cakewalk. I am not asking for sympathy or pity just some advice. I posted here to see if perhaps I had been missing something that could help me get through English class, and in fact I have been given some reasonable advice (thank you first three to respond) but some feel the need to dole out advice that would be considered patronizing even to a 12 year old. I'll thank you to keep your life lessons to yourself.

Edit: Sorry if I'm acting defensive. Just feeling a little on edge tonight.

You're going to get A LOT of patronizing advice in life.

What that means is take the advice with a handful of salt and read that novel.

LOL.

[stlukesguild]

Your passion is great. But then again so is mine, reading has been a central component of my life for as long as I can remember, whether it was reading Greek mythology with my grandmother, or tackling books like Little Women and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea in grade school. I hate to sound as if I am bragging, but reading is my passion. So please do not reduce me to Dan Brown and Harry Potter right off the bat, and by no means am I a fan of Lady GaGa or for that matter anything that is played on the radio. I think any discussion between the two of us will be much more productive if you don't make rash assumptions of who I am.

I have made no such assumptions. Lady Gaga, Dan Brown, etc... were but examples of highly accessible and less-than-challenging works of art... works that do not demand a great deal of the audience but rather pander to them. You came to this board wondering about your inability to appreciate Shakespeare, Dante, etc... I merely suggested that these writers may demand that you invest more effort than you are used to... although I would almost assume that if you can appreciate Nietzsche, Shakespeare should present you with no real challenge.

You may indeed have read far more than I presumed... although one might point out that with Dante we are talking about a 13th century Italian poet and with Shakespeare we have a poet/playwright of 16th/early 17th century England. The language, the poetic structures, the use of metaphors, symbols, etc... may be well removed from much that you have read. It wasn't really until I had a good deal of experience in reading poetry... including earlier poets... that I found Shakespeare and Dante really resonated. Of course... you may just not like them, and there is nothing wrong with that... as long as you can discern a personal dislike from a larger value judgment (ie. Shakespeare doesn't do much for me... thus Shakespeare is overrated).

With regard to Dante and your inability to relate to his themes... I would question whether the ability to relate is something to make aesthetic judgments based upon. In other words... do you read only to reinforce your own ideas, beliefs, thoughts, experiences... even prejudices? Part of the value of reading is the ability to experience other ideas, beliefs, thoughts, cultures, etc... I am not Muslim, and yet the strongest book I have read in the last few years was Firdawsi's Shanameh... which is something of Persia/Iran's Odyssey and Divine Comedy all wrapped into one. I remember being absolutely infuriated again and again by the ideas Plato put forth in The Republic. I repeatedly scrawled angry retorts in the margins... but reading him was an experience I would not have missed. It was like engaging in a dialog with a brilliant mind... and I could not deny his brilliance no matter how much I disagreed with what he had to say. Beyond saying this, I might note that Dante's themes are virtually an entire universe. His is not but dry theology... he deals with passion, love, deceit, murder, history, politics, theology, death, spirituality, and so much more. His characters and their narratives and the intensely sensual/sensory manner in which he portrays them include many of the central characters and narratives to Western literature. They have repeatedly been the subject matter of painters, poets, novelists, composers, etc... This is something to consider before dismissing his work offhand.

...some feel the need to dole out advice that would be considered patronizing even to a 12 year old. I'll thank you to keep your life lessons to yourself.

Again... it is impossible to offer any real critique of your reading or suggestions to improve this without a greater case history of your reading, as it were. You are the one who came here asking for the opinions of others. Believe it or not some of those here may have already gone through the same sort of struggles and experiences as you... as some here may have actually have more experience with literature than you. Certainly, you are free to make of my opinions...take them or leave them... as you will.

[Leland Gaunt]

@spooky-Ugh its a never ending circle. lol
@stluke- I understand that reading can introduce you to new ideas, but in Dante's case they were for the most part the lessons of my childhood (raised a Roman Catholic) but with more detail.Though I still have my doubts you have convinced me to study poetry more intensively, and revisit the Divine Comedy. As for recommendations, if you happen to know of any prominent anarchist theorists that would be great. I'd like to once again apologize to anyone I got snappy with, I regret doing so. This seems to have quickly devolved into an irritable me ranting at people over the internet.

[stlukesguild]

Surely, there's no greater "anarchist" than William Blake.

[billl]

Oh, yeah. Blake is pretty easy to appreciate. I was very lucky to pick that at random for some high school assignment.