Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

[Paulclem]

I've just read an interesting article in the UK's Independant newspaper on the idea of Heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1949399.html

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.


It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

Of these 71% believe it's an actual place

41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.

It doesn't say that belief in Heaven implies a belief in Hell. What do you think - does it?

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

[BienvenuJDC]

This kind of discussion is equivalent to the old "Is there a God" discussion. It cannot be proven either way. The discussion will be heavily based on the belief system of those involved.

[Dodo25]

'It can't be proven either way' is tautologically true, and grossly misleading. I also can't 'prove' that French evolved out of Latin (yet the evidence concludes this beyond reasonable doubt), and neither can I prove that unicorns don't exist.

However, in theory, one can make an (indirectly) evidence-based case for anything that does exist, even things like black holes or dark matter, which are pretty mysterious and (referring to the latter) not yet understood at all.

And, just to say it once again, the statement 'it can't be disproven' is rather meaningless, since nothing can be disproven.

To answer the question: Most likely there is neither heaven nor hell.

Because
1) There's absolutely no evidence for it.
2) The concept of a 'soul' that lives on after death does not have any selective advantage in evolution, additionally, looking at the evolutionary history, there is no teleological trend towards anything.
3) The concept of a 'creator' is deemed improbable, since the creator, in all it's intelligence and infinite complexity, is just 'postulated' without explanation, this is much more improbable than a purposeless universe with SIMPLER beginnings.

And the fact that 41% think that pets go to heaven is simply ridiculous (I really tried to find a nicer word but I failed). It just shows that people believe what they want, without caring for objective evidence, or even without reading any 'holy book' apparently.

[The Atheist]

It says that the Christian/ Jewish/ Muslim version of heaven is an invented idea - around 165BC, which it claims arose due to the insecurity of burial rituals during the Greek occupation of Jewish lands.

Yep, like pretty much all of christianity, it's borrowed from elsewhere. The "vigin birth" is a classic example of a theme that runs through many religions.

It quotes some stats:

83% of US citizens and 51% of UK citizens believe in heaven.

That's a pretty good improvement on around the time of WWII, when I'd say it was probably near 100% in both countries.

41% of these think their cats and dogs etc will follow them there.

If that doesn't confirm my statement that people believe because they want to, I don't know what would.

Is the idea of Heaven wish fulfillment, and what about near death experiences?

I can't see heaven as being anything else.

What about NDEs? I'm pretty confident oxygen deprivation is to blame. And what of people who have an NDE and do not "see" heaven. Kerry Packer - late Australian billionaire - had his heart stop beating for several minutes and awoke to claim that there was neither heaven nor hell as he saw nothing.

Are ideas of heaven, and by implication hell, too woolly?

Oh yeah.

The thing christians overlook is that eternity is a hell of a long time. I suspect that one could be a bit bored with the harps and lack of beer after the first trillion years or so, and that's just a blink to eternity.

And eternal torment? Are any crimes worth being tortured eternally for?

I'd feel a bit hard done by that being an atheist gets me the same torture sentence as Charles Manson or Ted Bundy.

Not to mention that the christian bible doesn't threaten four generations of murderers' families the way it does unbelievers.

[ktm5124]

Yep, like pretty much all of christianity, it's borrowed from elsewhere.

It seems like your vendetta against Christianity is causing you to exaggerate your statements. Sure, I'll accept that Christianity borrows a lot from other religions (e.g. Judaism) but to say that "pretty much all of [it]" is borrowed is so exaggerated that it would offend any rational mind, Christian or not. Besides, you can't measure "pretty much all" of anything.

If that doesn't confirm my statement that people believe because they want to, I don't know what would.

Believing in something without evidence is called faith. People who have faith do not deny that they believe without evidence - they understand this to be the definition of their faith. What is so wrong with this? Personally I find something beautiful in the idea of it - faith is very freeing.

The thing christians overlook is that eternity is a hell of a long time. I suspect that one could be a bit bored with the harps and lack of beer after the first trillion years or so, and that's just a blink to eternity.

And eternal torment? Are any crimes worth being tortured eternally for?

I'd feel a bit hard done by that being an atheist gets me the same torture sentence as Charles Manson or Ted Bundy.

I agree with you here. I don't think there are any crimes that warrant eternal suffering.

My own view on religion is that it is good in moderation. I find that it helps bring people together, forming friendships and family bonds that would not have been formed otherwise. I have a whole network of family friends that is reinforced many times a year on religious holidays. None of us are actually very practicing in our religion, but we all appreciate the opportunities it provides us to come together four, five times a year around a table - all of us present - to eat, converse, and catch up.

You seem to view religion only in the sense of fundamentalism, extremism, or 'letter of the law' interpretation. For instance, you write

The thing christians overlook is that eternity is a hell of a long time.

But not all Christians believe in heaven and hell. In fact, I am sitting in a room right now with a Christian who just professed not to believe in heaven and hell. And yet your statement overlooks this fact - perhaps you don't mean to assert that all Christians believe in heaven and hell, but you unconsciously do so, in the way you phrase it.

I raise these points because I have to say it bugs me how you often go beyond a rational critique of religion by adding subtle, implied, and unconscious insults to those who are religious. In the above post you have made exaggerations, you have degraded the idea of faith (calling it "believing in something just because you want to believe it"), and you unconsciously assert that all Christians believe in heaven and hell.

I would be surprised if you could acknowledge that there are moderate forms of religion which can do a lot of good by persons and communities.

[blazeofglory]

In fact what we call heaven or hell is simply a projection of our minds. In fact it has some values in the past. For the fear of hell or the reward of heaven always drove people to do good jobs.

I remember as a child I always felt that I must do something good and the thought of hell always dissuaded me to do something sinful. If we go to a tribal community where the majority are poor, illiterate beleive in God, heaven and hell and such beliefs have really helped them.

It still help in so many communities.

As it is mentioned in the Brothers Karamazov if we have no fear of God, or no sense of morality or afterlives anything is possible. No matter whether we kill anybody secretly.

The idea of heaven or hell has great implications for life.

[The Atheist]

It seems like your vendetta against Christianity is causing you to exaggerate your statements.

I think using highly emotive terms like "vendetta" is absurd, myself.

I have stated on an enormous number of occasions that I have no problem with christianity until it is evangelised, as happens very frequently.

Sure, I'll accept that Christianity borrows a lot from other religions (e.g. Judaism) but to say that "pretty much all of [it]" is borrowed is so exaggerated that it would offend any rational mind, Christian or not. Besides, you can't measure "pretty much all" of anything.

I'd settle for "majority" then.

Looking at the important parts - creation, the fall, the flood, exodus, the virgin birth, a messianic character, life after death, heaven, hell, the only god, I find it hard to see much originality anywhere.

Maybe you'd like to state which parts are original to christianity - it could be that you aren't aware of just how derivative it is.

I don't think it's that much of an exaggeration, but I'm open to discussion.

What is so wrong with this? Personally I find something beautiful in the idea of it - faith is very freeing.

See above - I have no problem with people believing in the christian, islamic or hindu god/s and having faith that they're right.

Trouble is, we have a couple of thousand years of evidence that theists will try to force their beliefs onto others.

You seem to view religion only in the sense of fundamentalism, extremism, or 'letter of the law' interpretation. For instance, you write

I know all christians don't believe in hell, which is why I separated heaven in that particular comment. In fact, only a small number of sects believe in a literal hell since the RCC gave it away.

But not all Christians believe in heaven and hell. In fact, I am sitting in a room right now with a Christian who just professed not to believe in heaven and hell.

Not believing in heaven, or just a different name for it?

By "heaven" I mean some place or form of eternal life, which is central to all christian beliefs. Without a life after death, there wouldn't be much point in having a religion, so I think his stance is somewhat disingenuous if he's claiming there is no heaven.

And yet your statement overlooks this fact - perhaps you don't mean to assert that all Christians believe in heaven and hell, but you unconsciously do so, in the way you phrase it.

Well, I've never yet of heard of one professing there is no afterlife, so I'd be interested to hear how that works.

I raise these points because I have to say it bugs me how you often go beyond a rational critique of religion by adding subtle, implied, and unconscious insults to those who are religious.

Oh, I wouldn't say they're subtle. They're certainly not meant to be.

I look at it like a Clive Cussler book. An absurd plot, full of ridiculous inconsistencies with a really stupid premise followed up by the worst deus ex machina you've ever read.

Yet people buy Cussler's books and others believe the ghost of a dead Jew runs the entire universe.

What is there to be subtle about?

In the above post you have made exaggerations,

Well, I'm waiting for evidence of that, so I'll wait.

[QUOTE=ktm5124;887003]you have degraded the idea of faith (calling it "believing in something just because you want to believe it"),]/QUOTE]

Which, after 40-odd years of observing christians and other theists and discussing the subject with some of the world's best-known theologians, I am certain that's the case - that people believe because they want to.

There is actually not one single, rational reason to believe in a sky-daddy, and claiming there is would be naive in the extreme.

One thing you do need to note is that I am not even that anti-religion. I can pretty well prove that religious people live longer, are happier and more altruistic than non-religious people. On balance, I find religion is a positive in human society, but it demonstrably needs to be kept in check, and My agressive attacks are part of that balance.

Again, I have said for many years, if religion stopped trying to subvert and convert, I'd leave them alone.

and you unconsciously assert that all Christians believe in heaven and hell.

Covered.

I would be surprised if you could acknowledge that there are moderate forms of religion which can do a lot of good by persons and communities.

As you see above, I can go well beyond that and there is plenty of evidence to show that I've strongly praised moderate christianity and leaders like Archbishop Rowan Williams.

Sadly, for every Rowan, there is a Pat Robertson, a Jerry Falwell, a Fred Phelps, a Benny Hinn and a Jim Jones.

[dizzydoll]

However, in theory, one can make an (indirectly) evidence-based case for anything that does exist, even things like black holes or dark matter, which are pretty mysterious and (referring to the latter) not yet understood at all.

And what of dark energy... so unpredictable and not understood at all. How cool is that?

I believe we make our OWN heaven or hell.
I also believe that God is in YOU and ME and EVERYTHING we see.

Mine is a simple philosophy that works very well.

[blazeofglory]

In fact the idea of heaven or hell originated from our minds and end there only

[JuniperWoolf]

I always thought that the whole heaven/hell thing was stupid, even when I was a kid. My reasoning: billions of people die every generation. Wouldn't it get full?

If some form of existance continues after death, I always thought that reincarnation seemed more likely.

[Paulclem]

I would be surprised if you could acknowledge that there are moderate forms of religion which can do a lot of good by persons and communities.

To be fair to The Atheist, he has said as much in previous threads.

Heaven and hell's existence can't be proven in the conventional sense.

The Buddhist take on Heaven and Hell is that they exist, but are not permanent. So a being will live in a hell realm until they have run out of the bad karma that put them there.

One indicator of the existence of heaven / hell in Buddhism has been that if you can accept reincarnation, and then you observe hellish or heavenly conditions on earth, then the possibility exists that there are hellish or heavenly realms.

Certainly, and worryingly, I can think of examples of hellish conditions on earth, fire, flood, war etc, but not as many heavenly.

Would Christians/ Muslims/Jews consider their version of afterlife to be a kind of limited reincarnation, and could this be then an argument for it's existence?

In fact the idea of heaven or hell originated from our minds and end there only

Perhaps this is so.

You only have to visit your local Psychiatric unit to see people who seem to living in an unreachable private hell.

[Lote-Tree]

Ask this question - Do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?

How many will say Hell?

Must be zero.

[Paulclem]

But you wouldn't ask the question if you don't believe it in the first place, as many do not.

I think we would agree that proof can't be supplied in the same way as it does in science, but is there another way to examine the question?

[The Atheist]

And what of dark energy... so unpredictable and not understood at all.

I beg to differ. Dark energy, as far as we can tell with something we can neither measure nor see, appears to act in highly predictable ways, which is why there are many constants in the universe, and while we don't understand it all that well, it's new science.

I also believe that God is in YOU and ME and EVERYTHING we see.

May the force be with you!

Ask this question - Do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?

How many will say Hell?

Must be zero.

Nope.

I freely state that if I'm wrong, I'm at least guaranteeing a trip to hell, which is where I'd want to be.

I coupldn't cope with all those Catholics in heaven saying "I told you so"!

[hoope]

[QUOTEThis kind of discussion is equivalent to the old "Is there a God" discussion. It cannot be proven either way. The discussion will be heavily based on the belief system of those involved.][/QUOTE]

BienvenuJDC ! You are right and we will end up in the same way as in the last discussion . The whole thing will be diverted to the existence of God .. and then the existence of a world hereafter .. and so Heaven and hell ..



Many of divine books. does mention that it exist..
Or else why are we living... There has to be a reward and a judgement day ... and so people will know whether they are in Heaven or Hell . Because there is eternity and we live for that day . So there gotta be something !

It a part of faith to believe in it . I believe in the existence of life hereafter.. and in Heaven .. and of the hell too.
And everyone will get what he works for in this life.

Things that can't be proved wrong is right .

Nope.

I freely state that if I'm wrong, I'm at least guaranteeing a trip to hell, which is where I'd want to be.

I coupldn't cope with all those Catholics in heaven saying "I told you so"!

Atheist ! Is that the best you can do ... Someone with your intelligence can think of other ways to make it through ... Don't you even wish !
Not try to convince u but coz i know that we can choose to be in heaven and work for it .