Tao Te Ching, or Dao De Jing

[dizzydoll]

Yes of course guys, Love is all and all is Love. Not separate but all in Oneness.

...

26 Therefore, the truly great man, although he does not injure others, does not credit himself with charity and mercy. He seeks not gain, but does not despise his followers who do. He struggles not for wealth, but does not take credit for letting it alone. He asks help from no man, but takes no credit for his self-reliance, neither does he despise those who seek preferment through friends. He acts differently from the vulgar crowd, but takes no credit for his exceptionality. When others act with the majority he does not despise them as hypocrites. The ranks and emoluments of the world are to him no cause for joy; its punishments and shame no cause for disgrace. He knows that positive and negative cannot be distinguished.

27 But how then, asked the river, are the internal and external extremes of value and worthlessness, of greatness and smallness, to be determined? The ocean replied, From the point of view of the unvarying way there are no such extremes of value or worthlessness. Men individually value themselves and hold others cheap. The world collectively withholds from the individual the right of appraising himself. If we say that a thing is great or small because it is relatively great or small, then there is nothing in all creation which is not great, nothing which is not small. To know that the universe is but as a tare-seed, and that the tip of a hair is a mountain—this is the expression of relativity.

From the Hsin Hsin Ming
http://mindgazer.org/tao/
and
http://mindgazer.org/tao/#Tao

[NikolaiI]

If we say that a thing is great or small because it is relatively great or small, then there is nothing in all creation which is not great, nothing which is not small. To know that the universe is but as a tare-seed, and that the tip of a hair is a mountain—this is the expression of relativity.

This is in accordance with the traditions of Buddhism as well. It's not a preliminary exercise but it's what the masters wrote down, for the preservation of the very idea.

Here is a part of a text (the Avataamsaka Sutra or the Flower Ornament Sutra) which goes into more elaborate detail on the last point.



"With bodies as numerous as atoms of the world . . .
On every atom is found a buddha
Sitting amongst countless buddha sons,
I look with eyes of faith to the victorious ones
Thus filling the entire dharmadhatu [Dharma Realm]."

from the Avatakamsaka Sutra
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/...-4/hi-dara.htm

"In every atom are buddha-fields numberless as atoms,
Each field is filled with buddhas beyond conception,
And each buddha is surrounded by myriad bodhisattvas:
To all these dwellers in sublime ways I turn my attention.
Thus, in all atoms within the directions
Abide within the space of a single hair
An ocean of buddhas within an ocean of buddha-fields
Performing enlightened activities for an ocean of eons.

"I manifest buddha-fields past, present, and future
Upon one single atom of existence,
And then I transform every single atom
Of existence into a buddha-field.

"May I purify an ocean of realms,
May I liberate an ocean of sentient beings,
May I see an ocean of truths,
And may I realize an ocean of wisdom."


I would not post these words if they were merely pretty words to me. Rather they've been accurately descriptive of many parallel discoveries from visionaries through time and cultures. My experience as well has been of this boundless existence beyond the misconceptive duality which pervades all of our modern thought. Beyond the point of duality is the only way to have true wholeness, harmony; and crossing to that point an infinite weight is lifted because all of the suffering we've ever experienced is based on the defense of the ego; whose nature is actually without any self, or substance. For what we term substance is a static, and what exists is a flowing.

There are a thousand points of entry into the magical; we can feel them when we live in a healthy and clean environment, one we can grow in and also can face life's challenges; one where we're stocked up with healthy and loving relationships, for it is through love that we find our highest potential. To feel love, though it seems simple, is one of life's greatest joys... though it goes beyond that.

If we can master ourselves then we can come to a more real understanding of nature.. of all the forces in nature and how they interact, how we can fit ourselves into it all.. the dynamic play of organic life and force. We ourselves shape ourselves and our entire world, as we are the authors of our lives, and the creators of our universe, involved as well as a step beyond; rather than controlled by externals, a mere character, we are the author.

Taoism has become a great science, studying the energies of the mind and the body, and there is a greatly valuable portion of Taoism which is about body cultivation. As the Hindu spiritual leader Swami Vivekananda stated, a healthy body is essential to a life of spiritual growth and to overcome new and greater challenges.

Taoism, just like Buddhism, has a depth which we can't understand until we reach it. ourselves.

[blazeofglory]

This idea that in everything there is God and God is in every thing is the philosophy of Vedanta. This is really a very mysterious notion about the existence of God. God permeates everything and this Godliness of existence is hard to comprehend. Only devotees can feel it our rational man cannot comprehend this.

It is faith and faith alone that works when it comes to understanding God. God's omnipresence or universality is evidently pronounced in the Vedas.

Of course to a certain extent I found similarity between the texts in the Vedas and the Tao Path in point of fact.

Of course the subtlety of the presence of God is hard to comprehend when we have a fixated mind set. Let us purge our preconceived mindsets.

[dizzydoll]

This idea that in everything there is God and God is in every thing is the philosophy of Vedanta. This is really a very mysterious notion about the existence of God. God permeates everything and this Godliness of existence is hard to comprehend. Only devotees can feel it our rational man cannot comprehend this.

It is faith and faith alone that works when it comes to understanding God. God's omnipresence or universality is evidently pronounced in the Vedas.

Of course to a certain extent I found similarity between the texts in the Vedas and the Tao Path in point of fact.

Of course the subtlety of the presence of God is hard to comprehend when we have a fixated mind set. Let us purge our preconceived mindsets.

Please guide me Blaze, where can I read about this Vegas you speak of? As Ive bolded in your comment above. Ta

[dizzydoll]

And so I'm back to weave a bit of magic: Long live the Tao

Self-Rejection
This is how we live -- trying to manipulate the outer world so that our inner world can be at peace. But this struggle is a hopeless task; it is not what will bring us to a state of contentment… We don't know how to leave ourselves alone. Every internal action involves some kind of rejection of our present state, our actual reality. And there is a deeper consequence to this attitude of rejection: By rejecting what is so for us in the present moment, we are rejecting ourselves. We are out of touch with our Being. Aiming toward the future, we sacrifice the present. By looking outside ourselves for what is missing, we subject ourselves, our souls, to the pain of abandonment. (Spacecruiser Inquiry, pg 4)

Soul Child
The primary structure is what we call the "soul child," which is the state of the soul before she was completely structured and became estranged from her primitive animal forms and her essential ground. This is the structure popularly known as the "inner child" -- the child of joy, the emotional child that is still intact with its original qualities of aliveness, curiosity, mischievousness, openness, and so on. It is what is popularly called the emotional child, but slightly different. The emotional child is only the emotional part of the soul child. In reality, as children we were not only emotional; we were living souls, full of life and vigor, adventurous and curious, joyous and playful, but also capable of exploding in rage and frustration, or going into fear and terror. (Inner Journey Home, pg 201)

The dominant condition of the soul child is a soul presence patterned with the child's image, but presence mixed with emotions and impulses. It is fluid and emotionally labile in a passionate way. It is the core of the soul that becomes repressed or split off. It is not the dissociated essence, but a soul structure that still has some ability to experience it. In fact, it is the most developed structure of the soul in which we can still experience the soul as a medium. It is the most developed of the structures that still retain the basic properties of the soul. Nonduality between experiencer and experienced is still present to some degree. (Inner Journey Home, pg 202)

...

I have to restrain myself... I am dieing to post more but then its too much to absorb in one sitting.

have a fab day to all who read this comment

[dizzydoll]

Gosh I'm in a rush but I have to stop and post this. I've been looking for it for so long and now.. it just cropped up, so before it gets lost.. again. Let me share with you. Happy weekend all.

Gratitude

I once traveled with a friend who had great insight into human nature. He said, “Wherever you go you can find something to complain about.” If we travel, we can complain about lumpy beds and crowded airports. But if we stay home, we can complain that we never go anywhere interesting and there’s never anything good on television. In Japanese language there is a term -- on. The meaning of onoften includes a sense of gratitude combined with a desire to repay others for what we have been given.

It’s not just that we feel grateful, or that we express our gratitude, but that we actually experience a sincere desire to give something back. We might think of it as appreciation that stimulates a sense of obligation. Not an externally imposed obligation. But a sense of obligation that arises naturally within us as we recognize how we have been supported and cared for by others.

So how do we go from a complaining life to one which cultivates, and is grounded in, a spirit of on – a spirit of Thanksgiving? A method of Japanese psychology called Naikan gives us insight into the principles help create an authentic life of gratitude and offer us clear and straightforward methods for helping to wake us up to the care, support and gifts that make our own lives possible.


Seven Principles for Cultivating Gratitude
By Gregg Krech

1. Gratitude is independent of one's objective life circumstances;
2. Gratitude is a function of attention;
3. Entitlement makes gratitude impossible;
4. When we continue to receive something on a regular basis, we typically begin to take it for granted;
5. Our deepest sense of gratitude comes through grace -- the awareness that we have not earned, nor do we deserve what we have been given;
6. Gratitude can be cultivated through sincere self-reflection; and
7. The expression of gratitude (through words and deeds) has the affect of heightening our personal experience of gratitude.



Expressing Gratitude is Transformative

Expressing gratitude is transformative, just as transformative as expressing complaint. Imagine an experiment involving two people. One is asked to spend ten minutes each morning and evening expressing gratitude (there is always something to be grateful for), while the other is asked to spend the same amount of time practicing complaining (there is, after all, always something to complain about).

One of the subjects is saying things like, "I hate my job. I can't stand this apartment. Why can't I make enough money? My spouse doesn't get along with me. That dog next door never stops barking and I just can't stand this neighborhood."

The other is saying things like, "I'm really grateful for the opportunity to work; there are so many people these days who can't even find a job. And I'm sure grateful for my health. What a gorgeous day; I really like this fall breeze."

They do this experiment for a year. Guaranteed, at the end of that year the person practicing complaining will have deeply reaffirmed all his negative "stuff" rather than having let it go, while the one practicing gratitude will be a very grateful person. . . Expressing gratitude can, indeed, change our way of seeing ourselves and the world."

-Roshi John Daido Loori

http://www.todoinstitute.org/gratitude.html

[billl]

Self-Rejection
This is how we live -- trying to manipulate the outer world so that our inner world can be at peace. But this struggle is a hopeless task; it is not what will bring us to a state of contentment… We don't know how to leave ourselves alone. Every internal action involves some kind of rejection of our present state, our actual reality. And there is a deeper consequence to this attitude of rejection: By rejecting what is so for us in the present moment, we are rejecting ourselves. We are out of touch with our Being. Aiming toward the future, we sacrifice the present. By looking outside ourselves for what is missing, we subject ourselves, our souls, to the pain of abandonment. (Spacecruiser Inquiry, pg 4)

Is Spacecruiser Inquiry at all concerned about those who are living under domination, or have become mere tools of their abusers? I don't think that the ego's work is always bad, and it is a bit callous to ignore the cases in which people manage to rise above and overcome their circumstances. The future can (sometimes) indeed be better than the present, if one works towards it.

I understand how this all might make sense in terms of not seeking happiness in acquisition, or more and more control in a highly materialistic society. That sort of thing is not so good. But I think victims of acquisition or control needn't be ashamed of rejecting that outer world, and its abuse of the particular individual.

I think that our ego should know its boundaries, with the goal being to neither go beyond, nor surrender, our due as sentient beings. And the back and forth of history is enough for us to learn such things.

[dizzydoll]

Bill that comment on self-rejection deals with living in the present moment.. the now. But here is more on virtue which includes a message for the ego. Of course we all have ego which is necessary for practicality purposes, but outside of that we need to tame our ego to awaken to enlightenment.

Virtue

The Chinese Taoist teacher, Lao Tzu, described the Four Virtues of what he called the virtuous life. If you live according to them you’ll be living the true human life, which will predispose you to the experience and realization of oneness. That means it is not just understanding of self not just having certain experiences; it means living, acting, interacting in a certain way. So what are these four virtues?

* The first has to do with love and respect for your Essence and Being: to live a life that implicitly loves and respects what is genuine in you and everyone…

* Another of the four virtues is sincerity: being sincere in your life, not lying to yourself. To be sincere is to be earnest about exposing your self-deceptions about who you really are, and what you want and do not want, what you feel and do not feel, what scares you and what doesn’t, about what is actually happening in you and in your situation…

* The third virtue or quality is what is called delicacy. It is the nature of the ego-self or personality that it is thick-skinned, thickheaded, hard, and tough. This hardness, toughness, thickness, and dullness is the circumference, or the boundary between you and everyone else and the rest of the universe. So that’s why you need to become more refined, more delicate. You need to have more gentleness, more vulnerability, more receptivity and permeability…

* The fourth quality or virtue is what is called helpfulness. Obviously, helpfulness is based on oneness itself. To be helpful means that you are aware that you do not work only for yourself; your work is for everyone. If you only work on yourself without helping other people, you are not doing the Work. It is as simple as that. (Diamond Heart Book 4, pg 106)

[billl]

I agree with the idea that people should be virtuous, and Buddhist writing contains a lot of interesting ideas in that regard. I don't think any system is sufficient to account for all of what we are up against, of course, and so I think a discussion of the Tao is well-served by tempering some of the lessons with a view to the world as it is (the world of appearances, or the world of ten thousand things). I think it is very good to use the ideas (techniques? tactics?) of acceptance, etc. when we are confronted by frustrating circumstances, and that even the spirit of a rebel would of course be well-served by a control of the passions at crucial moments. But I think that a focus exclusively on such teachings can get a little intoxicating--it is conducive to a trancelike acceptance that can be wonderful (even blissful) but can also make people vulnerable to suggestion, accomodating to unfavorable circumstances, and trusting in those who perhaps do not deserve trust. Some people trying to learn to accept everything might tend to do it incorrectly.

Of course, there can be great joy, and even a 'wonderfully' empty awe at a consciousness of consciousness, a perception of some very basic things about existence that we are usually blind to. However, I've seen people have trouble with their egos even while reveling in this sort of thing. Living in the Now can get us through difficult times, and it is useful to be able to do so beyond situations in which we might naturally fall in to a "zone," etc. But it can also produce the perfect mark for a confidence scheme, or be a source of Pride, or lead to the rather depressing prospect of groupthink.

Again, for me, the Taoist (and the Buddhist) perspectives and the cultivation of these approaches is basically a useful collection of techniques, very useful tactical approaches to some aspects of life. Clearly, the ego can get carried away, and the self in general can get carried away with concern with things and trivial events in our environment. But we should also thank goodness for our egos and our boundaries, which make us unique, and enable our selves to have value, and through which we might reach, or sing, or share secrets with each other when we develop trust and wish to do so--and, rather than reject the self in a surrender to simpler and purer existence, we should enjoy our life as human beings that have unique personal perspectives, and deserve to live in dignity.

[dizzydoll]

First I must start by saying, nobody is perfect so there will be things I miss and so I hope others might fill in where I am short on explanation.

Then its important to remember that we dont need to abide by everything that all living belief systems teach us, we have a choice -- some teaching suit us and some not. For example, altho the Buddhist teaching has a lot of wisdom I am perplexed by their conditioning of suffering in order to achieve awakening. I dont believe this is where its at. For me if there are any conditions placed on any belief system the message falls flat.

On the other hand the Tao Te Ching teaches us to simplify our lives, to live in tune with nature, to appreciate and be grateful for natures provisions and beauty, to understand we are all connected in Oneness -- not only to nature but to each other. Lao Tzu sets simple boundaries for us to follow. The Tao also teaches us to not take everything so seriously, to not over analyse things, to stop reaching, to make less laws and rules, to go with the flow instead of fighting it, to understand and accept the reasons for change.

The Tao doesnt say we must not be apart from the 10,000 things [indeed that is impossible], just that we must not allow those things to control our lives. In fact the Tao even teaches the Art of War (AOW) with Strategies for Survival and Tai Chi Chuan martial arts. So its a very practical belief system in its entirety.

Bill:
But I think that a focus exclusively on such teachings can get a little intoxicating--it is conducive to a trancelike acceptance that can be wonderful (even blissful) but can also make people vulnerable to suggestion, accomodating to unfavorable circumstances, and trusting in those who perhaps do not deserve trust. Some people trying to learn to accept everything might tend to do it incorrectly.

There are no "suggestions" in the Tao, in fact quite the contrary its teachings are simple -- to follow our own compass, thats all. Sometimes we will follow Confucius philosophy and sometimes the Tao's philosophy [btw the Tao is not a religion, this thread should have been posted under the Philosophy, it is rightfully known as Taoist Philosophy]. There is nothing "trance-like" about it either. In fact the Tao recommends a balanced life as discussed by Confucius foremost disciple Mencius [quoted below] states on a pdf. file in my possession:

As for myself, I am not always a Taoist all the time. I am Taoist when contemplating the mystery and wonder of the universe. I am Taoist when walking in the MO Botanical Gardens or when diving into the ocean waves or practicing Taiji on the Cahokia Mounds. I like to be Taoist when sparring with others, seeking to blend with my opponent’s movements rather than opposing them, turning my opponent into my dance partner instead of my enemy. I am Taoist when I contemplate the continuous ebb and flow of Yin and Yang. I am Taoist whenever people ask me to define myself in their terms, or whenever else I feel like it. But in truth I must also confess to a fondness for being Confucian, also and sometimes at the same time “Bears Paw”:

“I like fish and I also like bear’s paw. If I cannot have both, I shall give
up the fish and choose the bear’s paw. I like life and I also like righteousness.
If I cannot have both of them, I shall give up life and choose righteousness.
I love life, but there is something I love more than life, and therefore I will
not do anything improper to have it. I also hate death, but there is something
I hate more than death and therefore there are occasions when I will not avoid danger.” 6A:15

You say "Living in the Now can get us through difficult times, and it is useful to be able to do so beyond situations in which we might naturally fall in to a "zone," etc. But it can also produce the perfect mark for a confidence scheme, or be a source of Pride, or lead to the rather depressing prospect of groupthink.".

Firstly all we have is the NOW, the future is non-existent and the past is gone. What we do with the now is important in preparing for our future but its impossible to live for the future per-say. And again you might not understand the Tao fully yet, but perhaps you might after reading what I have outlined... the Tao certainly does not advocate any groupthinks at all, if anything Lao Tzu lived the life of a hermit, he was completely against Confucius' groupthinking proposals.

I agree its important to nurture the ego for obvious reasons and as I said earlier, for practicality purposes, but outside of that the ego must be tamed. What is ego outside of control? Thats what ego is, its control... and you must admit there are times when we simply get in our own way in an attempt to control everything.. this is when we allow our ego a free reign and it causes negative development of the ego. Somethings are completely outside of our control and we must accept that.

I hope this has cleared up some things but remember the Taoist Philosophy is the oldest philosophy on earth so there much out there to grow on. The more you read the more you will grow. The Tao Te Ching is a feminine analogy and the more you read the different interpretations of it the more it will grow on you.

Lao-Tzu is simple, his analogy’s are that of a villager -- but alive, radiant. His book of analogy has to be read again and again. Lao-Tzu is a mathematical philosopher who few people understand. But if you allow him you will be transformed by him.

You cant read Lao-Tzu like a paper back it is a life long work to enter the analogy. Logic is superficial, you can understand Aristotle there is nothing much to it. But when it comes to Lao-Tzu, the first time you meet him you might even miss his vision. But by and by Lao-Tzu will haunt you. His attraction is feminine. By and by he will catch your being. You only have to allow him.

In logic you have to fight and compete, in analogy you have to be sympathetic you have to allow it -- only then the analogy can flower. So in deep sympathy and reverence, in deep faith and trust only Lao-Tzu can be understood. You will not understand Lao-Tzu with your mind, only your heart. Analogy is for the heart, logic is for the mind. Lao-Tzu is a poet, you listen to poetry you don’t argue with it. You absorb the poetry, you chew it. You allow it to move your being, you digest it. You forget the poetry and the words completely but the fragrance becomes part of you. The flavour and significance of the poetry becomes part of you.

I hope this clears up some of your concerns.

[billl]

I like a lot of what you wrote, Dizzy Doll. I am going to return to not speaking so much of these things, but I want to say, before stepping back again, that I was addressing many of the things you have posted, as the scope has gone beyond a discussion of the Tao Te Ching only. I in particular want to say that I have a problem with the "we only have the Now" talk that has become popular recently--again, I think it has a place, especially for those who are dealing with loss or trauma, and that it can benefit us in many other situations as well. But I think it must go through contortions in order to give planning, and the meaningful history of a trusting relationship their proper due.

I think you or others might want to read what I've written again, and consider it--or you might not, of course. And please keep in mind that I have read the Tao Te Ching since more than twenty years ago, I have read it daily for months at a time, and I have to say that no book has had more of an effect on who I have become. I have also read some Buddhist texts and seriously practiced meditation for some time. I really don't think I am missing so much as you appear to think, judging from your most recent post.

[dizzydoll]

Bill I dont know how else you can live except in the present, now. You are doing an injustice to yourself if you do not stay in the present moment to savor it. Have you read any of Eckhart Tolle's work? particularly The Power of Now and A New Earth?

and btw I am dizzy or dizzydoll. Dizzy Doll is in fact a children's doll, it is not me. lol. You can call me diz if you are lazy.

[billl]

Yes, I have read one of Tolle's books. I know what you are talking about here, dizzydoll (sorry about the misspelling ). Anyhow, I have posted in other Tao Te Ching threads here, and--to be clear--I recommend Tao Te Ching to everyone.

Tolle would be best covered in a different thread imo.

OK, I'm stepping away from this for a while (and I mean it this time, lol).

[dizzydoll]

But we should also thank goodness for our egos and our boundaries, which make us unique, and enable our selves to have value, and through which we might reach, or sing, or share secrets with each other when we develop trust and wish to do so--and, rather than reject the self in a surrender to simpler and purer existence, we should enjoy our life as human beings that have unique personal perspectives, and deserve to live in dignity.

I am not sure what you are getting at here. Naturally boundaries are a must. We are unique, with value, as that goes without saying. Then to put things in perspective, we came into this world alone and we go out alone, so I am not sure how you tie your ego to another person as you do in the quote above.

[dizzydoll]

The spirit that never dies is called the mysterious feminine. Although she becomes the whole universe, her immaculate purity is never lost. Although she assumes countless forms, her true identity remains intact. The gateway to the mysterious female is called the root of creation. Listen to her voice, hear it echo through creation. Without fail, she reveals her presence. Without fail, she brings us to our own perfection. Although it is invisible, it endures. It will never end.

Lao Tzu
6th verse from The Tao Te Ching