Should school be compulsory?

[applepie]

Agreed. It was the one thing we thought most useful. Unforunately the experience was much more negative than positive. It's a hard thing to judge from outside.

I think school should be compulsory but it is basically the same kind of setup as it was 100 years ago whilst serving a very different world. Whee's the innovation and vision afforded by research and technology?

My experience in school was very negative. I spent my entire high school period ostracized. I had entire days where I spoke to nobody in school, and it sucked in more ways than I can count. I don't wish the same on my kids, but it helped make me into the person that I am. Good or bad, I think it is necessary.

[Virgil]

Hi Fifth.

I think schools are a one stop shop, and as such don't fit a significant number of kid's needs.

I think there's got to be change in the school model - use technology better - target kid's interests - better motivation - more involvement of parents at Secondary school.

Exactly Paul. You remember that school thread where all the teachers ganged up on me for wanting to break the school monopoly? They will never allow change, at least not in the US. I hope some other country can provide an example of real school choices for families, and then perhaps maybe it will spur the people in my country to enact it. That is why home schooling is really rising here.

I agree with those that said, education should be mandatory, but school should not.

[BienvenuJDC]

Exactly Paul. You remember that school thread where all the teachers ganged up on me for wanting to break the school monopoly? They will never allow change, at least not in the US. I hope some other country can provide an example of real school choices for families, and then perhaps maybe it will spur the people in my country to enact it. That is why home schooling is really rising here.

I agree with those that said, education should be mandatory, but school should not.

I agree with you both. Education must be compulsory, however, how does one define 'education'? While one person may be able to open law books and explain the impact and application of any particular law that is on the books, they are completely clueless as to why their car won't start. There are many scholars that have no idea why the light comes on when the switch is flipped. Academics have failed many students who learn by tinkering. I could lecture one pupil on the design of the diesel engine and give a written test over the parts of the engine. I could also give an engine to another pupil with some brief instructions and say..."Have at it!" Due to learning styles and aptitudes that differ, it is possible that the second scenario results in the better learned student...and eventually a master mechanic.

[Virgil]

Excellent points Bien. I certainly don't have answers to your questions. There needs to be a diversity of learning experiences for children to find what they love.

[BienvenuJDC]

The teacher should conform to the student as much as the student is expected to conform to the teacher.

[applepie]

Excellent points Bien. I certainly don't have answers to your questions. There needs to be a diversity of learning experiences for children to find what they love.

This is something that I've thought to argue against within my son's school. In only the first grade, he is bored an already hates things. It has little to do with school being much too difficult, and it has everything to do with they repeat the same things over and over again.

Take today as an example. My boy brought home yet another page today with yet another ruler to "practice" measuring things. He learned the exact same thing only a month or two ago, and now he is being forced to learn it again.

Is it any wonder that it is all to often the intelligent and naturally bright children that are falling through the cracks? I don't really think that there is a failing for the typical child, and there are more programs than I can count for children with learning disabilities. With budget cuts it was the program for the brightest that was reduced. The general thought seems to be that these children will be fine with normal teaching because they're naturally intelligent. Afterall, they are easily meeting the minimum standard so they don't NEED additional attention. It makes it difficult as a parent to keep your child interested in learning without making them that much more bored at school.

[Gladys]

Is it any wonder that it is all too often the intelligent and naturally bright children that are falling through the cracks? I don't really think that there is a failing for the typical child...

Is there a 'typical child'? Many children, not so bright, have acquired skills far beyond the median in certain areas. Some children, interested in words and given opportunity, are reading adult classics in grade 1. How can a grade 1 teacher challenge these children, as well as the huge spectrum of lesser reading abilities, when faced with a class of 30-odd kids? Teachers typically devote 10 seconds of attention per child per day!

Boredom is endemic to mass education, where most children spend half the day killing time. Education worked better in the days of the governess, but today we seek to educate more than just the rich.

[Niamh]

Vocational Education is just as important over here as academic and has been since the 60s. My Dad went to a tech back in the 50s to learn trade as most people who wanted to learn trade had to if they didnt get apprenticeships. We have Institutes of Technology all over the country (they were originally called Regional Tecnical colleges when first set up). When they were originally set up they mainly focused on Trades. People went to them to obtain certs and diplomas in Construction, carpentry, metalwork etc. Now they are some of the most important colleges in Ireland for Science, IT studies, Business finance and accounting, and some of them even specialise in Nursing, Art and Humanities Subjects aswell as construction etc. ITs are applied for in same way and at the same time as Universities and National Colleges and are under the same points bases, more demand for the subject, the higher the points. A lot of the Secondary schools over here offer technical drawing, graphic drawing, woodwork, metalwork and maybe one or two other classes that can lead a student into trade. Most secondary schools offer a six month trial of all classes for first year students to get a feel of subjects before selecting their classes so that they know which they would like instead of selecting classes and making bad choices. Technical ed is promoted just as much as academic ed in schools that provide the subjects and students are encouraged to go on to do trade and technical 3rd level ed if they show the interest too.
I think its very important for all education systems to promote and encourage both feilds as not everyone is academic.
I too think school should be compulsory, but i think that variety and choice is definitely needed.

[applepie]

Is there a 'typical child'?

Certainly I think that there is. Some children are gifted in some areas, some are gifted in all, and some children are simply average. Part of the reason that education levels are set where they are is that majority of children fall within the scope of that learning pattern. It is the outliers that are not being tended to, and while there are programs to help those who are at the lower end of the spectrum achieve, the children who are outside of the norm for the better are often ignored.

How can a grade 1 teacher challenge these children, as well as the huge spectrum of lesser reading abilities, when faced with a class of 30-odd kids? Teachers typically devote 10 seconds of attention per child per day!

I don't believe that it should be left to each individual teacher to set policies or to challenge these children. Programs that offer these children a challenge should be in place and further expanded. It is a failing in the schooling system and not necessarily one within the teachers.

Boredom is endemic to mass education, where most children spend half the day killing time. Education worked better in the days of the governess, but today we seek to educate more than just the rich.

I'm certain education worked better in the days of the governess, but then since they were also allowed to whip a child with a stick for not paying attention I find I've no longing for those days . I also have no desire for education to be available simply to the rich. If you can afford a tuition of $12,000 per year then you can send you child to a top notch private school that will see to much of what I would demand from public schooling. I instead argue that a true education should be available to all children regardless of income and that that education should meet their abilities. Children should not be forced into boredom simply because their parents can not afford private schooling and the educational system lacks the inclination to offer specialized course work to children with exception instead of remedial abilities.

Trust me, I know I'm on a soap box here, but I lived it. While I fully believe that public schooling is necessary to achieve the necessary social interactions that children need I do not approve of the general educational set up. I know the life that my children will face in school, and I still think the benefits of social normalization they would not otherwise get if I were to educate them myself or hire someone to do so for me. The education that I can provide them would be far superior to what they're receiving, but I tend to think that the most important lessons learned in school are of a social nature and not those actually taught by teachers.

[Paulclem]

Exactly Paul. You remember that school thread where all the teachers ganged up on me for wanting to break the school monopoly? They will never allow change, at least not in the US. I hope some other country can provide an example of real school choices for families, and then perhaps maybe it will spur the people in my country to enact it. That is why home schooling is really rising here.

I agree with those that said, education should be mandatory, but school should not.

I remember. I think there's a systemic problem often. teachers easily feel threatened, not without cause over here, as education is always a hot political potato with accusations of trendy lefty teaching flying around etc.

I was a teacher in a Primary school - 4-11 yr olds. looking back there were so many things that i could have done better, and a lot of the time there was a pervasive feeling that it wasn't being done properly - not individual lessons so much, but the overarching organisation and setup.

I used to moan that we had 6 weeks holiday and then tried to teach, meet, improve, develop resources, organise stuff, report to parents, do the exams, blah blah blah, when all i really should have been doing was teaching the kids, asessing the lesson, assessing the kids and moving them on and giving them a great educational experience through the whole gamut of what was available. Instead you end up too knackered to do much but tread water and get through it.

Don't get me wrong - I like holidays, but it was a burden. change wil take time.

[Paulclem]

Certainly I think that there is. Some children are gifted in some areas, some are gifted in all, and some children are simply average. Part of the reason that education levels are set where they are is that majority of children fall within the scope of that learning pattern. It is the outliers that are not being tended to, and while there are programs to help those who are at the lower end of the spectrum achieve, the children who are outside of the norm for the better are often ignored.

I felt sorry for the kids who fell outside the norm. School was never going to be for them, as there wasn't time to give them what they needed to nurture them on. From my own school days i remember ill fitting kids - who often were outsiders for social reasons rather than anything else. Sad really.

If your kid has good mates, then that will help with the school stuff. Despite what I've been saying, individuals often cope better than us anxious parents think they will. My son has always been a bit unworldly, but he learned some good lessons on who to have as a mate etc. He coped when we worried about him not, and he was in a particularly difficult year in his school.

[Virgil]

You sound like a great teacher Paul. Many kudos to you.

[Gladys]

Some children are gifted in some areas, some are gifted in all, and some children are simply average.

I felt sorry for the kids who fell outside the norm. School was never going to be for them, as there wasn't time to give them what they needed to nurture them on. From my own school days I remember ill fitting kids - who often were outsiders for social reasons rather than anything else. Sad really.

Most gifted children hail from the educated elite: children who want to learn, are given ample opportunity, and are rewarded for their efforts. What about all the keen children who, early in life, are educationally hamstrung and mocked for their ignorance and inabilities? Sad indeed.

Gifted generally means little more than nurtured, privileged (at least educationally) and, of course, blessed with a love of learning. Notwithstanding, one underprivileged child in a thousand somehow rises above manifold handicaps to earn the label gifted!

Interesting that, in life, the genius and the high achiever are under-represented among the gifted.

[applepie]

Most gifted children hail from the educated elite: children who want to learn, are given ample opportunity, and are rewarded for their efforts. What about all the keen children who, early in life, are educationally hamstrung and mocked for their ignorance and inabilities? Sad indeed.

Gifted generally means little more than nurtured, privileged (at least educationally) and, of course, blessed with a love of learning. Notwithstanding, one underprivileged child in a thousand somehow rises above manifold handicaps to earn the label gifted!

Interesting that, in life, the genius and the high achiever is under-represented among the gifted.

I don't discount the high achiever. Hard work can certainly pay off, but there is a difference between working hard for an education and having it come naturally. The two require different things when it comes to teaching. There are courses here that combine the two groups, but it doesn't often end well.

I'll make an example which I don't mean as anything more than to prove a point: I slept through advanced chemistry in high school. It provided me with a 2 hour nap, and I was working 40 hour weeks. Anyway, I did the bare minimum on homework (only something that was graded, so this amounted to a news article submitted each week), and the only time my book was really open was when I used it as a pillow. Many of the other students worked hard in class and they put in two hours of homework for that class as well as additional all nighters studying for tests. We both had an "A" in the course, but when it came to the final testing that granted college credit, I scored an entire grade higher than her. I was a social outcast and a "freak". She just worked hard and was considered a good student.

My point is only that there is a big difference between hard work and being truly "gifted". I found that part of the whole "gifted" package was that I didn't really need to work at anything to learn it. Learning simply came naturally. From the group of us at my school we all came from different backgrounds, but none of us were particularly privileged genetically or educationally. None of us had overly bright parents. They weren't lacking for intelligence or anything, but they were all pretty typical. The schools we attended were mediocre at best, and many of us did not have any place in the advanced programs because there was only funding for a very small number of children.

Regardless, the way that we learned was vastly different than the way that other children learned. They had to work to retain knowledge, and all of us just sort of absorbed it. We heard it and we knew it. I don't really know a better way to explain, but it is just a different process. It isn't something that is learned or unlearned, it just is. Actually on a light note, it is darn inconvenient at times. Ever try to unlearn, or brain dump something you don't really need to know, and you simply can't? I have a theory that eventually my head will fill up and I'll not be able to learn anything new

[blazeofglory]

In fact I am never supportive of a formal school. I love the very tradition of Gurukula in which there is no limitation of what one can learn and it binds both the Guru and the Pupil by a bond of understanding.

But today it is not possible or almost unthinkable to find a school of that sort. Today we live with different values and therefore today we want schools that help us meet those values.

And for so many explicit and implicit reasons that I support such educational institutions.