Well, Yanni,
Here's the first movement to a famous work.
attr. 'Josef Haydn'
Symphony No. 92 - 'The Oxford'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_114...eature=related
And another -
attr. 'Josef Haydn'
Symphony No. 104 - 'The London'
Finale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvcgu...eature=related
(Well, that's what the textbooks say, at least ! The music is wonderful and we don't need to haggle too much about the true composer.)
Last edited by Musicology; 03-07-2010 at 05:25 PM.
Robert,
Is there evidence to suggest that Haydn's story is dodgy as well?
By suggesting Forkel instead, Robert selects to ignore music paedagogue and lexicographer Heinrich Christoph "Koch", who recognised Mozart's mastery in his "Haydn" quartets, 1785 (In Koch's "Lexikon", around 1793).
After hearing them all, Haydn made a now-famous remark to Mozart's father Leopold, who was visiting from Salzburg: "Before God, and as an honest man, I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name. He has taste, and, what is more, the most profound knowledge of composition."[3] The comment was preserved in a letter Leopold wrote 16 February to his daughter Nannerl.[4] (Wiki)
But then, Robert refuses to address any relative (to "Koch") issue, including Krause's correspondence (because of the unfortunate "Carl Ludwig Cocceji")
On the subject of "Koch" sharing the same music principles (melody vs harmony, ie Rameau vs Rousseau/Grimm or the buffon debate, later "Gluck" vs Piccininni) with paedagogue-lexicographer "Rousseau", see http://www.fedegarcia.net/writings/period.pdf
But then, again, Robert wants us to believe that "Rousseau's" alias "Philidor" supported Rameau's principles.
IE
a)"Koch" was a master chessplayer.
b)Robert is a faithfull servant of the Music Industry!!!
...and the identity of the London "Bach" is still pending!
Last edited by yanni; 03-08-2010 at 06:56 AM.
ERS,
Yes indeed ERS ! The foundations of the 'Wiener Klassik' (so-called) and which consists of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart and Ludwig van Beethoven have been called in recent years 'the final frontier of musicological research', and quite rightly.
The symphonies of Joseph Haydn (for example) have their true origins in the supply to Esterhazy of works by composers such as Sammartini and (later, from 1771 onwards) by Andrea Luchesi, the newly appointed Kapellmeister at Bonn. Indeed, the 'autographs' of 'Haydn's' symphonies show them to have been written in his hand long, long after their supposed date of composition. The expert in this area of study is Giorgio Taboga of Italy, who has closely examined the whole subject of Haydn's career. Also known as 'Papa' Haydn, that is ! It too is a long story. At the Estense Library in Modena are various masses and symphonies attributed to Josef Haydn which show clear evidence of having existed far earlier than their supposed composition dates. I have a lot of information on this subject, but became so busy with the Mozart book that it remains, till now, hardly touched. The same is true of 'Haydn's' operas. Indeed the attribution of music to Josef Haydn (much of which is really fine music) has a very different story from that of convention.
Regards
Robert (Newman)
Originally Posted by ERS
Yanni,
Thank you for your rather strange last post. May I correct you ?
Musical pedagogue and lexicographer Heinrich Christoph Koch 'recognised the mastery of 'Mozart's' so-called 'Haydn' quartets years after Mozart's death. In 1793, fully 8 years after their date of composition, when Mozart was, as said, already dead. The same year when he completely fails to refer to any of 'Mozart's' piano concertos. A strange oversight, yes ? As for these 'Mozart' string quartets (a subject which you have clearly not made any study of) they were declared at the time (1785) to be riddled with errors and musical absurdities by musical writers of the time. Including the Vienna based librettist and writer, Casti. In fact Casti laughed at these 'Mozart' works and they finally re-appeared years later in a much 'improved' musical form. The letter Casti wrote on this subject finally disappeared in Italy and is mocking of these 'Mozart's string quartets' (his earlier set from the time of his youth being blatantly based on those attributed to Josef Haydn and of very weak musical content).
The statement made by Haydn to Mozart's father is sheer moonshine. Both Haydn and Mozart came from the same fraudulent bucket. The same Haydn who refused repeatedly to come to Italy, and whose 'operas' were NOT performed in London. Indeed, at the time of Haydn's visits to England, Haydn could hardly hold a pen in his hand. (Suffering as he was with a debilitating neural illness). So much for the compositional 'genius of Haydn'. The works attributed to him there (including these last symphonies) were supplied TO HIM, before he ever arrived in England. From Bonn. Including the symphonies refered to above. I even have the text of a copy of the letter accompanying the contract made between Haydn and the impresario Salomon for these England tours which describes Josef Haydn at that time as being (and I quote) an 'unknown composer' and willing to accept a small fraction of usual payments for 'his' music from English publishers because of it. Needless to say, this never gets a reference in mainstream publications.
So much for facts and for fiction !
Meanwhile, back at Bonn, the unknown Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi................ LOL !! And you hear in this 'Haydn' anticipations of Beethoven's own style, don't you ? And who was Luchesi ? - if he was not the true composition teacher in Bonn of one Ludwig van Beethoven. Amongst others.
Yes, Haydn loved Bonn. Visiting there before each tour of England and also on return from both visits there. It 'helped' his musical reputation in England no end - courtesy of Salomon/Neefe/Simrock and others. LOL. Not forgetting Maestro Luchesi, of course !!!!
By suggesting Forkel instead, Robert selects to ignore music paedagogue and lexicographer Heinrich Christoph "Koch", who recognised Mozart's mastery in his "Haydn" quartets, 1785 (In Koch's "Lexikon", around 1793).
After hearing them all, Haydn made a now-famous remark to Mozart's father Leopold, who was visiting from Salzburg: "Before God, and as an honest man, I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name. He has taste, and, what is more, the most profound knowledge of composition."[3] The comment was preserved in a letter Leopold wrote 16 February to his daughter Nannerl.[4] (Wiki)
But then, Robert refuses to address any relative (to "Koch") issue, including Krause's correspondence (because of the unfortunate "Carl Ludwig Cocceji")
On the subject of "Koch" sharing the same music principles (melody vs harmony, ie Rameau vs Rousseau/Grimm or the buffon debate, later "Gluck" vs Piccininni) with paedagogue-lexicographer "Rousseau", see http://www.fedegarcia.net/writings/period.pdf
But then, again, Robert wants us to believe that "Rousseau's" alias "Philidor" supported Rameau's principles.
IE
a)"Koch" was a master chessplayer.
b)Robert is a faithfull servant of the Music Industry!!!
...and the identity of the London "Bach" is still pending!
Last edited by Musicology; 03-08-2010 at 01:05 PM.
"It is time we realized that to presume knowledge where one has only pious hope is a species of evil."
— Sam Harris
And here is some more music that has been falsely attributed to 'giants' of the musical industry. This time remarkable music falsely attributed to the young Ludwig van Beethoven who was still a student at Bonn. Two cantatas of state actually composed by the Bonn Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi (Beethoven's musical teacher) but credited by sheer tradition to the music student of Bonn himself, Ludwig van Beethoven ! Courtesy of the iconic world of Easter Island.
Now, whose job was it to write cantatas of state for the death of Emperors and the accession of new emperors in the Holy Roman Empire ? It was the job of the Kapellmeister of Bonn. NOT the young student Beethoven. But the Kapellmeister. How simple is that to understand ?
And thus, these two works today attributed to the young student Beethoven, Wo87 and WoO88 (cantatas on the death of the Emperor Joseph and also the cantata written on the accession of his successor, WoO88) are NOT by the student Beethoven and were in fact never credited to Beethoven in his entire lifetime. They are instead works by Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi (1741-1801). Ignored and marginalised (as usual) by the music industry ever since. Since, of course, you will look in vain for reference to Luchesi as his musical composition teacher in the textbooks of music history.
Andrea Luchesi (1741-1801)
Kapellmeister at Bonn (1771-1794)
Trauerkantate auf den Tod Kaiser Josephs II
Chorus
and NOT Ludwig van Beethoven.
Glad we sorted that out ! (These two cantatas were performed at Frankfurt and only much later were they falsely attributed to Ludwig van Beethoven). As for Andrea Luchesi............... Andrea who ???????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rMSF...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 03-08-2010 at 01:08 PM.
I have no doubt, Robert, that "Koch" promoted his disciple Mozart (alive in 1793), that disciple Haydn followed in step (and that his letter to Leopold is "moonshine" as you write) and so did Luchesi, but you apparently missed the essence of my "strange" previous post, ie the identity of The Manufacturer, a matter you have selected to leave covered in clouds.
But that was my point from the early start of this thread, was it not?
I am glad you agree the Haydn/Mozart relationship is moonshine. And so it is. But the fact remains that nobody knew of 'Mozart's piano concertos' until after 1791, with the exception of 3 concertos published in 1783, whose origins are definitely NOT Mozart. Neither Koch, nor any other writer of the time. Including Forkel. All 27 of these concertos appeared in print only in the very last years of the 18th century (i.e. from around 1798 onwards). By 1803 Koch saw them for the first time, in print. In 'Mozart's' name, of course. LOL.
As for actual authorship of these quartets dedicated to Haydn, no, I have no evidence of their actual composer. Since the documentary evidence shows they reached their final form long after 1785. This is a big subject and there is no simple answer. Several composers were certainly involved. And there is a fraudulent 'autograph' of these same works. Not often refered to. Casti was right. The original version of these quartets was riddled with musical errors and mistakes. They were it seems produced as arrangements of other music, drawing as it happens on various stage works attributed to (wait for it)..... Josef Haydn.
The circular world of musical propaganda, no less !
Last edited by Musicology; 03-08-2010 at 01:20 PM.
With Koch (alias Rousseau, Philidor, Gluck, Casanova, Grimm etc etc) praising Mozart's "Haydn symphonies" already in 1793 , your reluctance to address THE issue is well understood but maybe costly nevertheless.
BTW Musical Propaganda never was "Circular" but pyramidic instead!
Yanni,
Please provide us with evidence that Koch (aka Rousseau, Philidor, Gluck, Casanova,Grimm and numerous others) were all the same person.
It is not that I am reluctant to address 'the issue' but that the onus is yours to prove that Koch was another alias. Isn't it ?
We are still waiting for the evidence. What exactly IS the evidence in the case of Koch ? Because Herr Gluck died decades earlier. No ?
With Koch (alias Rousseau, Philidor, Gluck, Casanova, Grimm etc etc) praising Mozart's "Haydn symphonies" already in 1793 , your reluctance to address THE issue is well understood but maybe costly nevertheless.
BTW Musical Propaganda never was "Circular" but pyramidic instead!
And here again -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZE4...eature=related
Andrea Luchesi (1740-1801), WoO87 #
Kapellmeister, Bonn Hofkapelle (1774-1794)
Cantata (1790) on the Death of the Emperor Joseph
(Performed in Frankfurt at State Ceremonies)
This music had massive influence on Beethoven's only opera, 'Fidelio', of years later as you can hear here.
Details, courtesy of the great independent musical history researcher - Giorgio Taboga, Italy.
Last edited by Musicology; 03-08-2010 at 06:54 PM.
Evidence has already been presented, apparently in your mental absence.Nevertheless here is a recent work that might interest you:
Gluck: The marriage of Hercules and Hebe ~ Christoph Willibald Gluck (Composer), Helmut Koch (Conductor), Berlin Chamber Orchestra (Orchestra), Kammerorchester Berlin (Orchestra), Rosemarie Ronisch (Soprano), et al.
No customer reviews yet. Be the first.
First performance 29.6.1747 Pillnitz castle. (Leopold II, Holy Roman Emperor,Full name Peter Leopold Joseph,Titles Grand Duke of Tuscany,King of Germany,King of Hungary,King of Croatia and Slavonia,King of Bohemia
Archduke of Austria,Born May 5, 1747 Vienna ).
...and "bohemian Gluck" was as real a person as "little prophet from Bohemia Grimm".
Cheers!
Last edited by yanni; 03-09-2010 at 04:40 AM.
Yanni,
My 'mental absence' (so-called) equals that of virtually everyone reading this thread. You were asked to provide evidence Heinrich Christoph Koch was the same person as Gluck, Rousseau, and all the other invented aliases of your theory. But what have you provided ? Before we consider your last post let me start at the beginning.
Here is a reference to H.C. Koch anyone can read -
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...G1ACEWCENUK313
And here, for the sake of our sanity, is the entire reference to H.C. Koch in the 'Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians'. Please read it.
KOCH, HEINRICH CHRISTOPH
(b Rudolstadt, 10 Oct 1749; d Rudolstadt, 19 March 1816). German music theorist and violinist. He served in his youth as a violinist in the Hofkapelle at Rudolstadt and in 1772 became a court musician. He studied the violin and composition with the Kapellmeister Christian Scheinpflug and briefly continued his studies in Weimar, Dresden, Berlin and Hamburg before returning to Rudolstadt, where he remained for the rest of his life. In 1792 he was appointed Kapellmeister, but he returned voluntarily to the orchestra as a first violinist after one year. Composition and writing then occupied him until his death. He was posthumously elected to the Swedish Royal Academy of Music in 1818.
The majority of Koch's compositions were for the court: cantatas, a drama Die Stimme der Freude in Hygeens Haine (1790), instrumental works and sacred music. Except for excerpts illustrating his theoretical writings, these are now lost. Seven symphonies ascribed to ‘Koch’ and formerly held by the Hofkapelle (now in D-RUl) do not appear in contemporary lists of Koch's compositions and may not be his. Koch also wrote numerous reviews and a few articles – some anonymously – for the Musikalische Real-Zeitung of Speyer (1788–91), the Jenaische allgemeine Literatur-Zeitung (1804–11) and the Allegmeine musikalische Zeitung (1807–11). He started a periodical entitled Journal der Tonkunst in 1795, but only two issues appeared.
The Versuch einer Anleitung zur Composition, published in three volumes (1782, 1787, 1793), is Koch's most original and important work. A comprehensive study of both the theory and the aesthetics of music, it is grounded in the repertory of the day. Koch resolves the 18th-century dispute over the relative importance of harmony and melody by examining the origins of tones and the process by which the notes of the scale arise. He asserts that neither harmony nor melody takes precedence; key, or mode, is the primary matter (Urstoff) of music. If notes occur simultaneously, harmony results; if successively, melody results. Koch is indebted to Marpurg for the theoretical views expressed in volume i, but does not accept his theory of the undertones, derives the 7th differently, and does not believe that harmony is the primary element of music. He uses five counterpoint exercises of increasing harmonic complexity to illustrate how the notes of a cantus firmus contain the basis for differing harmonies related to the prevailing key. This demonstration is important preparation for the creation of a melody rich in harmonic variety. The Handbuch of 1811 is a revision of this volume, introducing recent scientific discoveries and a different method of chord classification.
Koch began volume ii of the 'Versuch' with an extended essay on aesthetic considerations and guidelines for creation in music. Here he was indebted to the work of Charles Batteux, which he knew in K.W. Ramler's translation, and especially to Sulzer's Allgemeine Theorie der schönen Künste. He believed that the ultimate purpose and moral justification of the fine arts, in particular music, are to awaken feelings in the audience that will inspire noble resolutions. Although aesthetic theory did not yet validate instrumental music, Koch implies that, by following certain guidelines of the fine arts, the composer of instrumental music may realize the same aim. He outlines three stages of creation, the plan (Anlage), the realization (Ausführung) and the elaboration (Ausarbeitung), and relates them specifically to music, describing the stages in which an aria from C.H. Graun's Der Tod Jesu was supposedly composed. Although it is unlikely that this method of creation was actually practised, the analysis was a useful pedagogical exercise.
Most of volume ii and all of volume iii are entitled ‘Von den mechanischen Regeln der Melodie’ [The Mechanical Rules of Melody]. Koch examines modulation, metre, melodic sections and their connection, and the genres of the day, stressing throughout the importance of the harmonic dimension. The composer's goal should be ‘to conceive of melody harmonically’ (die Melodie harmonisch zu denken), and this mutual dependence of melody and harmony should inform decisions at all levels. Koch acknowledges Joseph Riepel's Anfangsgründe zur musicalischen Setzkunst as the first work to discuss the smallest units of music and the ways in which they must be joined, and builds systematically upon these ideas. The distinguishing characteristics of a musical unit are its ending and its length. The ending, or melodic punctuation, is a resting-point articulated by melodic and harmonic means. The length of a phrase has a rhythmical character (rhythmische Beschaffenheit); because successive phrases create a rhythm, or periodicity, most pleasing if their lengths are equivalent. Koch prefers the four-bar phrase (Vierer), but also describes basic phrases of other lengths and extended and compound phrases. He discusses ways in which these building-blocks may be joined together in brief works, offering various harmonic patterns, and shows how an eight-bar dance can be expanded to 32 bars by such means as sequence, repetition, parenthesis and multiplication of phrase endings and cadences. In his descriptions of the larger forms, Koch concentrates on the principal period (Hauptperiode), a group of phrases which ends with a formal cadence. These periods create the various forms of music by their statement, their repetition, and the position of their harmonic centres within the hierarchy of the prevailing key. For the first movement of a symphony, Koch outlines a binary structure consisting of three principal periods; although he refers to a ‘singing phrase’ after the modulation, he never refers to it as a second theme. Koch's teachings on form were not prescriptive; he generally presented several options observed in the current repertory with the aim of showing what was most usual, das Gewöhnliche.
The Versuch includes many musical examples by Koch and excerpts from symphonies by Haydn and Antonio Rosetti, Singspiele by J.A. Hiller and Georg Benda, keyboard sonatas and concertos by C.P.E. Bach and works by other composers. Although the majority date from the 1760s and 70s, Koch also praised Mozart's ‘Haydn’ Quartets (published in 1785) and noted changes in recent practice.
The monumental 'Musikalisches Lexikon' of 1802 was the work by which Koch was best known until the mid-20th century. It provides information on the formal and technical aspects of the music of the late 18th century in concise entries with scientific explanations, mathematical illustrations and numerous musical examples. Koch later revised and condensed it for a more popular version (1807).
Extracts from the Lexikon were translated into Danish in 1826, and Arrey von Dommer revised and enlarged the entire work in 1865. Both the Lexikon and the Versuch influenced such theorists as Choron, Weber, Marx, Lobe, Lussy and Riemann.
WRITINGS
Versuch einer Anleitung zur Composition (Rudolstadt and Leipzig, 1782–93/R; partial Eng. trans. by N.K. Baker as Introductory Essay on Composition: the Mechanical Rules of Melody, Sections 3 and 4, 1983)
ed.: Journal der Tonkunst (Erfurt, 1795)
Musikalisches Lexikon, welches die theoretische und praktische Tonkunst, encyclopädisch bearbeitet, alle alten und neuen Kunstwörter erklärt, und die alten und neuen Instrumente beschrieben, enthält (Frankfurt, 1802/R, 2/1817); abridged as Kurzgefasstes Handwörterbuch der Musik für praktische Tonkünstler und für Dilettanten (Leipzig, 1807/R)
‘Über den technischen Ausdruck: Tempo rubato’, AMZ, x (1808), cols. 513–19
Handbuch bey dem Studium der Harmonie (Leipzig, 1811)
Versuch, aus der harten und weichen Tonart jeder Tonstufe der diatonisch-chromatischen Leiter vermittels des enharmonischen Tonwechsels in die Dur- und Molltonart der übrigen Stufen auszuweichen (Rudolstadt, 1812)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Grove6 (L.G. Ratner) [incl. further bibliography]
H. Riemann: ‘H. Chr. Koch als Erläuterer unregelmässigen Themenaufbaues’, Präludien und Studien, ii (Leipzig, 1900/R), 56–70
N.K. Baker: From ‘Teil’ to ‘Tonstück’: the Significance of the ‘Versuch einer Anleitung zur Composition’ by Heinrich Christoph Koch (diss., Yale U., 1975); extracts in JMT, xx (1976), 1–48, IRASM, viii (1977), 183–209, Studi musicali, ix (1980), 303–16
C. Dahlhaus: ‘Der rhetorische Formbegriff H.Chr. Kochs und die Theorie der Sonatenform’, AMw, xxxv (1978), 155–77
E. Sisman: ‘Small and Expanded Forms: Koch's Model and Haydn's Music’, MQ, lxviii (1982), 444–75
W. Budday: Grundlagen musikalischer Formen der Wiener Klassik: an Hand der zeitgenössischen Theorie von Joseph Riepel und Heinrich Christoph Koch dargestellt an Menuetten und Sonatensätzen (1750–1790) (Basle, 1983)
S. Davis: ‘H.C. Koch, the Classic Concerto, and the Sonata-Form Retransition’, JM, ii (1983), 45–61
I. Bent: ‘The “Compositional Process” in Music Theory 1713–1850’, MAn, iii (1984), 29–55
N.K. Baker: ‘Der Urstoff der Musik: Implications for Harmony and Melody in the Theory of Heinrich Koch’, MAn, vii (1988), 3–30
C. Dahlhaus: ‘Logik, Grammatik und Syntax der Musik bei Heinrich Christoph Koch’, Die Sprache der Musik: Festschrift Klaus Wolfgang Niemöller, ed. J. Fricke and others (Regensburg, 1989), 99–109
I. Waldbauer: ‘Riemann's Periodization Revisited and Revised’, JMT, xxxiii (1989), 333–91
J. Lester: Compositional Theory in the Eighteenth Century (Cambridge, MA, 1992)
W. Dürr: ‘Music as an Analogue of Speech: Musical Syntax in the Writings of Heinrich Christoph Koch and in the Works of Schubert’, Eighteenth-Century Music in Theory and Practice: Essays in Honor of Alfred Mann, ed. M. Parker (Stuyvesant, NY, 1994), 227–40
N.K. Baker and T. Christensen, trans. and eds.: Aesthetics and the Art of Musical Composition in the German Enlightenment: Selected Writings of Johann G. Sulzer and Heinrich C. Koch (London, 1995)
//
OK ? And when you were asked to show that this person is the same person as Gluck you provide us with the following -
Gluck: 'The Marriage of Hercules and Hebe' ~ Christoph Willibald Gluck (Composer), Helmut Koch (Conductor), Berlin Chamber Orchestra (Orchestra), Kammerorchester Berlin (Orchestra), Rosemarie Ronisch (Soprano), et al.
First performance 29.6.1747 Pillnitz castle. (Leopold II, Holy Roman Emperor,Full name Peter Leopold Joseph,Titles Grand Duke of Tuscany,King of Germany,King of Hungary,King of Croatia and Slavonia,King of Bohemia
Archduke of Austria,Born May 5, 1747 Vienna ).
...and "bohemian Gluck" was as real a person as "little prophet from Bohemia Grimm".
And this is the sum total of your 'proof' that H.C. Koch was the same person as Gluck !!!!!
I hate to trouble you further. But what is the relationship between the contents of your last post and H.C. Koch ?
But it gets worse. H.C. Koch died in 1816. But Christoph Willibald Ritter von Gluck died in 1787. Twenty nine years earlier.
I leave others to comment on your 'proofs' they were one and the same person since you have provided none at all. As usual.
Regards
Last edited by Musicology; 03-09-2010 at 07:24 AM.
But, to return to the subject. Here is the opening movement of 'Mozart's' Symphony No. 35 'Haffner', KV 385. Allegedly composed in Vienna 2 years after his arrival there.
A symphony, in fact, NOT by Mozart. Which began its life as a symphony supplied to Salzburg years earlier, by another composer. Which was twice altered, first into a Serenade, then re-orchestrated and changed back into a symphony by Leopold Mozart and (later) his son in Vienna before being performed and published in Mozart's name in Vienna ! And for which there is documentary evidence of it existing long before 1783 in its original form. As we find in the score today able to be seen at the Estense Library in Modena. Italy. A Modena score which goes year after year and decade after decade completely ignored in 'Mozart research'.
(Courtesy of L. Bianchini/A. Trombetta/G. Taboga/A. Taboga)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HV-B...eature=related
Last edited by Musicology; 03-09-2010 at 07:37 AM.
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