The Manufacture of Mozart

[yanni]

Salieri was certainly a diffferent person and as for the others, I have had no grounds to check them as possible aliases of Cocchi (who, as Comte de Saint Germain, is said to have used a thousand aliases).

An associate-correspondent of yours invented the two Nissens, as you have admitted, but you never bothered to check the truth of his "story". You are thus,as a declared Mozart buster, equally or more responsible for circulating this fiction.

You and anybody else may decide as they please on the matter, in the meantime google statistics favour my revelations only.

Good luck with your myths!

Yanni,

Paul Wranitsky (and his brother Anton Wranitsky) were both composers of Mozart's time. They too are musical 'aliases' of G. Cocchi, I suppose ? And how about Vanhal, Cartellieri, Sarti, Salieri, and literally dozens of others ? They too are aliases of 'G. Cocchi', right ?

Really, I refuse to replace one fiction with another when the music speaks for itself, this repeatedly confirmed by biographical and other information which rarely if ever features in Mozart publications.

Cocchi deserves a place. But not the one you see determined to invent for him. And, just to correct the record, I certainly did not invent the 'Two Nissen Theory'. But this fact too I have repeatedly said here on this thread. As you know. (Why do you insist on attributing to me things I have never said ? It robs you of the credit you deserve).

Anyway, you are entitled to your views and me to mine. Let others decide for themselves.

Regards

Robert Newman

[yanni]

Having just checked and included in my mastertimeline Wranitsky's 1784-1790 data (from http://www.wranitzky.com/biography.htm) , I can now confirm that he too is another alias of Augustin Henri Cochin-Melchior Grimm-Cluck-Muslivecek-Mirabeau-Chastellux-Casanova-abbe Raynal-abbe Galiani etc etc, ie Gioachino Cocchi.

Whoever wishes to confirm or dispute it, may repeat the excersise (for each and every alias as listed above. Gossec and Baron Bache may be included but there is no relevant reference to be found for them in my timeline for the specific period) at his leisure: All data are on the web (their deaths to be discounted as fictitious)!

My regards to all musicology "scholars"!

[yanni]

There are no serious biographic data on "Jean Baptiste Vanhal" but his works, his two or three operas in particular as well as his "story" , a myth, his few Vienna and Dresden appearances/disappearances, speak for themselves: Yes, he was another Cocchi alias as well!

Re Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (* 27. September 1772 in Danzig; † 2. September 1807 in Liebshausen, Böhmen) if his birth date is correct, he may well have been one of Cocchi's sons as his 1793 presence in Vienna and his 1796connections to prince Lobkowitz indicate. Sometime in 1795, Cartellieri is supposed to have taught music to Beethoven (his two or three year senior, Beethoven was baptised 17 December 1770) however, which rather spoils the "story": He was propably an alias of Cocchi as well!

The same* for Sarti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Sarti!

Now tell me about the others "dozens" Robert!

Three cheers and a half for the science of Musicology!

*Possibly Cocchi's brother.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

My suggestion is -

Why not study the life and music of the composer, G. Cocchi ?

In the meantime here is another important name in the Mozart story - no doubt yet another alias of your G. Cocchi, yes ?

'A. Rosetti'
Horn Concerto in E-flat major
(Murray C47): (c.1782)
I. Allegro moderato

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEw23...eature=related

Not forgetting -

J.M. Kraus
March

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwpzD...eature=related

(The relationship of this work by Kraus re-arranged in 1789 in Sweden of the March in 'Mozart's' Idomeneo of 8 years earlier is pure coincidence, of course ! And, the fact Kraus lived close to Mozart for months in Vienna - that too is pure coincidence. Like all the rest. LOL)

'W.A. Mozart' (actually J.M. Kraus) - Munich - January 1781
March
Idomeneo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys1wW9bXxVw

Honestly, Yanni, 'Mozart's' music is the product of MANY composers, arrangers, music editors etc.

And here is Cartellieri - the real composer of the 'Mozart' Clarinet Concerto (KV622)

Casimir Anton Cartellieri (1772-1807)
Concerto for 2 Clarinets
Adagio Pastorale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6DVRzBsLbQ

[yanni]

Studying the story of G.Cocchi is what I have been doing for the better part of some five years now and as for Rosetti, his alias, he has been already discussed but, in obvious lack of names for your next dozen, you suddenly forgot all about it.

The "swedish Mozart" Kraus's work, his contacts with Gluck, padre Martini and Mozart, his selection of many wind instruments (flute, obeo, bassons, horns), his lost works and his two distinct periods (jesuit-lutheran) leave little doubt of his true identity (which practicaly vanishes when Swedens politics are examined in parallel to those of France at the time).

Of interest his choice to use himself another alias for a work of his, published 1787 in Paris, as Giuseppe Cambini- whose biography is less blessed with detail than "first national musician of Sweden's" Kraus.



Anyoneelse from your dozens?

Yanni,

My suggestion is -

Why not study the life and music of the composer, G. Cocchi ?

In the meantime here is another important name in the Mozart story - no doubt yet another alias of your G. Cocchi, yes ?

'A. Rosetti'
Horn Concerto in E-flat major
(Murray C47): (c.1782)
I. Allegro moderato

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEw23...eature=related

Not forgetting -

J.M. Kraus
March

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwpzD...eature=related

(The relationship of this work by Kraus re-arranged in 1789 in Sweden of the March in 'Mozart's' Idomeneo of 8 years earlier is pure coincidence, of course ! And, the fact Kraus lived close to Mozart for months in Vienna - that too is pure coincidence. Like all the rest. LOL)

'W.A. Mozart' (actually J.M. Kraus) - Munich - January 1781
March
Idomeneo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys1wW9bXxVw

Honestly, Yanni, 'Mozart's' music is the product of MANY composers, arrangers, music editors etc.

And here is Cartellieri - the real composer of the 'Mozart' Clarinet Concerto (KV622)

Casimir Anton Cartellieri (1772-1807)
Concerto for 2 Clarinets
Adagio Pastorale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6DVRzBsLbQ

[Musicology]

Yanni,

My subject is Mozart and his bogus career. A career which used the input of MANY composers. As is indisputably correct.

But good luck on your Cocchi (whose musical achievements were far, far greater than those of any Mozart). He must have been a very, very busy composer/diplomat, yes ? It becomes ridiculous, in fact.


Regards

[yanni]

Go ahead, do your duty as a brit musicologist, prove me wrong by providing evidence to the contrary for any single one of my hero's aliases.

If my "Melchior Grimm" and "Rousseau" seem too difficult (in view of their high google stats) you may select any other.

What has become ridiculous in the meantime is your theory on Mozart's manufacture accompanied by (besides your two Nissens) a pile of bogus theories as to his "manufacturers" lacking any evidence whatsoever. (They collapsed of course during our discussion in this thread.)

Cocchi (and family), along with neoclassicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism), taught the younger european nations of his time theater and music, that's a fact, and if you or anybody else have difficulty to digest it, well, milk of magnesia might help!

BTW Cocchi's excellent relations to Sweden were transferred somehow to the next french "Saint Germain", his nephew "Jean d'Anastasi"*, chevalier de l'ordre Wasa, "armenian" consul of Sweden and Norway to Egypt as from 1826, previously employed by the british consulate in Alex, a partner later of consul Henry Salt in collecting and trading antiquities, papyri in particular . He is known today as Caussin de Perceval jr but also signed as Cochini at the time as well. For more details see "Two works by Poe decoded" herein.

If magnesia doesn't help, call me for another recipy.

Hope you soon recover!

Antonios Emm. Kokkinis.

*Also referred to as Jean d'Anastaisi, Jean d'Athanasi, Giovanni or Johann d'Anastasi or D'Anastasy, Ivan Afanassiev, Jannis or Yanni etc.
Belzoni worked under his supervision. Cooperated with Champollion.

[Musicology]

Thanks. Somehow I don't think any of us are profiting from this conversation any more. G. Cocchi has had more than enough our time.

Regards

[yanni]

Cheerio then!

[Musicology]

''Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these''.

J.S. Bach
Cantata 11
Chorale Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDWeTVbkft8

[Musicology]

Thanks Yanni, and to everyone else !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkt75...eature=related

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Thanks. Somehow I don't think any of us are profiting from this conversation any more. G. Cocchi has had more than enough our time.

Regards

Cheerio then!

''Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these''.

J.S. Bach
Cantata 11
Chorale Finale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDWeTVbkft8

Thanks Yanni, and to everyone else !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkt75...eature=related

Gentlemen, say it isn't so!
Is this really the end?

All joking aside, whether this is the end or not, my hat is off to both of you for your stubborn endurance and for sharing many new names, dates, events and possibilities to consider. Though I haven't responded much to your posts, I have attempted to read most of your posts, after all if it wasn't for you where would I get my material?

I'm sure our trails will cross elsewhere among the forums.
Until then, keep your bows rosined and your powder dry!

Gilliatt

[Musicology]

Hi Gilliatt,

Best wishes and thanks !

Antonin Dvorak
Cello Concerto
(End of Second Movement)

Soloist - Rostropovich

(Composed New York 1894)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-GlL...eature=related

[Musicology]

Antonin Dvorak
Cello Concerto
Carlo Maria Giulini
London Philharmonic Orchestra
Rostropovitch
1st Movement (Excerpt)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxYbF...eature=related

[Musicology]

Updated new website on Musical Revisionism. A modern re-examination of the icons of western musical history. In the coming weeks this site will contain various articles, publications and radio interviews etc. on aspects of this important educational and cultural subject.

http://www.musicalrevisionism.info/