Can Literature Civilize?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Can good literature be used to civilize those unruly masses? Can it educate and tame those wild brutes whose “dull eyes see nothing but their own ungodly woe” or is the finest literature just for those few who have palates developed enough to enjoy its fine pleasures?

I’m thinking maybe in the style of Ruskin who taught and lectured the lower orders in the realms of art, not so that they would necessarily produce themselves, but so that they could at least be taught to really see.

Teaching morality through literature is nothing new of course, but I’m not talking about imposing morality on the hordes, I’m merely thinking about enlightening and opening, and even raising, the minds of the barbarian blind, by the mysteries and wonders of finer literature.

Can it be done? Should it be done? Or is it better to let the scary ruffians be?

[virginiawang]

I can feel the close link between fine literature and a barbarian mind, which belongs to an uneducated, untamed wild mountain animal. Perhaps it is hard to make it clear to people reading this post, but that was what came to me when I read this thread. I am utterly convinced that civilization does not change the essence of a heart, whether it be an enlightened one or a primary one. To be evil and unmoral fits better to wonderful literature, I think.

[blazeofglory]

This is a very interesting idea. Literature cannot basically change people of the Barbarian type. Literature can at times cultivate your minds but not always and to kind of change their hearts there are other tools that can be strong tools.

[dfloyd]

H. L. Mencken used to call them the great unwashed. But I believe that these kinds of terms are outmoded by the educational levels reached today. Most of my frfends come from the upper strata of society. They are doctors, lawyers, engineers, computer specialists, etc. No one could call them barbarians. Yet very few of them read.

For years educators have been preaching that a sprinkling of liberal arts couses should be integrated into the curriculum of those taking the more technical courses. But it is difficult to tell or teach those students in the throes of solving differential equations that they should devote some student time to the discovery of Shakespeare.

Let's face it. Those who are inveterate readers with a love of literature are probably born, not made. Literature will always be an elite occupation. Those who learn to read early and show early ability in the understanding of literature, will have a lifetime of pleasure. Those that don't, cannot be force fed into the pleasures and self assurance that literature brings.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Who do you mean when you say barbarians?

H. L. Mencken used to call them the great unwashed. But I believe that these kinds of terms are outmoded by the educational levels reached today. Most of my frfends come from the upper strata of society. They are doctors, lawyers, engineers, computer specialists, etc. No one could call them barbarians. Yet very few of them read.

Oh, I like the phrase "the great unwashed"... Well, as a sort of educator myself in a roundabout sort of way, I'm personally interested in helping individuals find their own particular passion and trying to encourage them on that particular road, no matter what the field or area of study. So if someone was interested in computers or law or whatever then I wouldn't for a second push my own agenda, different people naturally have varied interests and that is fine and healthy.

What I think I was getting at, in a playful sort of way, is the old fashioned notion of "improving" the mind through art, in particular the written word. I just wondered what people thought on this issue really.

Personally, I agree, I do think that a person has to have some sort of inherent interest/passion for literature if they are going to be drawn into it fully - even if I have seen small sparks of interest from those who declare a total distaste for the written word on occasion.

I am utterly convinced that civilization does not change the essence of a heart, whether it be an enlightened one or a primary one.

No you are probably correct. As Wilde said that we are all the same under our masks, but it is the masks that are interesting. It probably leads us back to the essence of human nature and all that comes with that too.

[Virgil]

Can good literature be used to civilize those unruly masses? Can it educate and tame those wild brutes whose “dull eyes see nothing but their own ungodly woe” or is the finest literature just for those few who have palates developed enough to enjoy its fine pleasures?

I’m thinking maybe in the style of Ruskin who taught and lectured the lower orders in the realms of art, not so that they would necessarily produce themselves, but so that they could at least be taught to really see.

Teaching morality through literature is nothing new of course, but I’m not talking about imposing morality on the hordes, I’m merely thinking about enlightening and opening, and even raising, the minds of the barbarian blind, by the mysteries and wonders of finer literature.

Can it be done? Should it be done? Or is it better to let the scary ruffians be?

Good God, Neely, that is soooo snobish, it's breath taking. So I take it, you are civilized and most everyone else are brutes?

Art (story telling, music, art) in general are elements of what makes a civilization and carry cultural traditions and norms. I think that's a different issue from what you're getting at.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Good God, Neely, that is soooo snobish, it's breath taking. So I take it, you are civilized and most everyone else are brutes?

Well I was just asking because I once tried to civilize my personal chef (I forget his name) but it didn't work, he didn't take to it at all, damn fellow.

[jadrianne]

Some of them just can't break their mental limits .

[Paris]

Personally, I agree, I do think that a person has to have some sort of inherent interest/passion for literature if they are going to be drawn into it fully - even if I have seen small sparks of interest from those who declare a total distaste for the written word on occasion.

What an interesting discussion...

I totally agree..in my opinion..many of the ''wild brutes'' are quite content in their current states..although..having once been a wild brute myself..(a civilized one at that) many have hidden passions which only need cultivating..encouraging perhaps..my original passion for litterature came from an acknowledgement that there was actually something I could relate to in the works of many..often the assumption is that literature is far removed from the real world..(similar things have been said about the bible for instance)..people often want to be able to relate to what they read..hence the popularity of authors such as Martina Cole & Cecilia Ahern..

Literature can not civilise..but it can certainly go a long way to cultivate..broaden & feed the mind..it did for me!

[prendrelemick]

To play with words for a moment, literature is a product of civilization, not the other way round.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Literature can not civilise..but it can certainly go a long way to cultivate..broaden & feed the mind..it did for me!

Certainly, well put, it did for me too. Joking aside, (with the "brutes" and "ruffians") one of my biggest regrets in life is that I wasn't exposed to reading from an earlier age, instead I came to it quite by chance at about seventeen. I still feel incredibly frustrated at times the way I feel I sort of missed out here, I feel a little let down by the system, parents (I suppose) and my own stupidity that the little sparks I did have for reading were not fully lit. Though, I think that maturity has to play a natural part in matters too - and it is not all woe.

In this sense I suppose, to "civilize" the individual (that is an awful term, but I like to be playful sometimes) is in a sense to provide people with opportunities to discover the things that they might love, which in turn might lead them onto their own particular path in life.

I live and work in an environment in which reading books are almost something that are completely alien to the vast majority of people. Certainly in terms of quality books, though really just reading in general! This just feels quite wrong to me and I’ve never really got use to it – I can’t understand it.

I am an extremely strong advocator of books for children - books from birth. In the sense of improving literacy and writing skills there is absolutely nothing better for it, nothing. You only have to look at a child's writing and you can instantly spot that they are readers from their work, it is so much the better for it. I fully support the Sure Start scheme which offers free books from birth, though this is very limited and needs to be followed up with more.

All parents should flood their children with books from birth without exception.

[Amoxcalli]

No one is going to be influenced by literature without reading some.

These "barbarians" as you call them (which I find a degrading term for perfectly human human beings who are in general no more immoral than the intellectual elite) will have to read literature first, before it can influence them (for the better or for worse). I don't think this happens in current society. The masses are more likely to be influenced for the better by a good film.

[jadrianne]

to say this but : there are more and more people in the world that don't want to read and those people are more despisable for me than the ones that are uncultivated because they didn't get the chance of a proper education .

The people that don't understand culture think that it's sufficient enough to have the school of life as they call it .

[LitNetIsGreat]

No one is going to be influenced by literature without reading some.

These "barbarians" as you call them (which I find a degrading term for perfectly human human beings who are in general no more immoral than the intellectual elite) will have to read literature first, before it can influence them (for the better or for worse). I don't think this happens in current society. The masses are more likely to be influenced for the better by a good film.

I was merely being playful - I just woke up in silly mood this morning, I sort of thought that would be obvious, but maybe not...

It is a good point though, actually getting children to even consider reading, if they are not used to it, can be incredibly hard, that's why, like I said above, you have to introduce books as early as possible - from birth really. The amount of young people who totally dismiss the very notion of reading is really shocking. If it is true what it is said about the purpose of education is to open minds then is doesn't appear to be doing a very good job - though that one is perhaps for another day.

[jadrianne]

you must turn the books into the forbidden fruit : when it is forbidden to read the people will begin to read .( as seen also in the movie Fahrenheit 451 ).