China incline USA decline?

[coberst]

China incline USA decline?

America now has an open society but few Americans have the Critical Thinking skills and intellectual sophistication required to maintain that status. The question becomes: "can a democracy survive in a world where technology is driving change at a very rapid pace?” Darwin informs us that if a species cannot adapt to its changing environment that species will soon become toast.

I suspect that China represents an example of how such a fact plays out. China, an authoritarian form of capitalism, is likely destined to become the dominant power in the 21st century because an authoritarian system can better adapt to a rapidly changing world. America displays a nation unable to quickly adapt to a rapidly changing world.

Karl Popper argues, in his book The Open Society and Its Enemies, that all ideology shares a common characteristic; a belief in infallibility.

The concept Popper illustrates in this book sounds much like the concept of a liberal democracy but his concept is more epistemological than political. It is based upon our imperfect comprehension of reality more than our structure of society. Such infallibility is an impossibility, which leads such ideological practitioners to use force to substantiate their views and such repression brings about a closed society.

Popper proposed that the open society is constructed on the recognition that our comprehension of reality is not perfect—there is realty beyond our comprehension and our will cannot compensate for that lack of comprehension. Even though the will of the power structure can manipulate the opinions of the citizens sooner or later reality will defeat the will. Truth does matter and success will not always override truth—truth being reality.

[Dinkleberry2010]

I disagree with your statement that "An authoritarian system can better adapt to a rapidily changing world...America displays a nation unable to quickly adapt to a rapidly changing world." On the contrary I believe that America is the most adaptable country in the world and the most open and willing to adapt and change.

[MANICHAEAN]

Any descendents of the immigrants that gave up, (whether by choice or circumstance), their original birthplace to make a new life in America have by definition the qualities of: character, hard work, innovation, focus and the willingness to take risk. This may appear at first glance to be a somewhat bland statement and there are many Americans who appear not to know much outside their own backyard. But then for the last twenty years I have worked with what I term the "Frontier Americans" in Africa, The Middle East & Asia. They are representative of the potential of Americans to adapt, (like the British) to a successful new role in the world. The seeds of danger always lie within the emerging power, (in this case China). With their rigid system, sensitivity to criticism, suppression of independent thinking ask yourself who you would lay your money on!

[Virgil]

I disagree with your statement that "An authoritarian system can better adapt to a rapidily changing world...America displays a nation unable to quickly adapt to a rapidly changing world." On the contrary I believe that America is the most adaptable country in the world and the most open and willing to adapt and change.

I agree. Change for the sake of change doesn't mean it's for the better. What appears to be a lack of change may actually be the correct decision. China has figured out over the last few years that freeing the economy to market forces provides the most adaptability and leads to the greater prosperity. The Chinese may not be free politically, but they certainly seem free economically these days. Top down command economies strangle because one is more likely to make incorrect economic decisions as not and over time it will show. Let the market forces determine change, and that is true adaptability. While the US lately has become more command geared economically, it's still one of among the most free of the western nations, and this command appoach willbe reversed. We sometimes go through cycles, but it won't last. I applaud the Chinese economic success. They are rising because they currently have low labor rates while western countries do not. Over time that will change, perhaps in two generations.

[OrphanPip]

China's going to have serious economic issues in 20-30 years because of the one child policy. They're entering a period where a very small portion of their population will be largely responsible for supporting a very large portion. The Western world will have a comparable problem with the aging baby boomers, except not as bad.

[wildspirit]

I agree that the US is in decline. The education system is a serious mess. There is no initiative. Students are lazy and dont care at all about learning, pop culture is the focus. Texting in class with a phone hidden in purse or pocket is the norm. Students can not be expected to participate successfully in the economy, work force or government when their focus is on designer clothing and status symbols that they can really afford. Democracy relies on it's citizens being able to make educated decisions about their leaders and if the next generation refuses to learn then US leadership will decline and other nations will rise to fill in the gap.

[9 Bean Rows]

Interesting that the question should be posed as if upon a set of scales. Must the US decline for China to incline or vice-versa? (sp.)The premise of finite wealth vs. created wealth has shaped politics for thousands of years. I personally believe in a single creator of all men. I therefore do not fear another mans good fortune as a loss to my own.

[MANICHAEAN]

Good point 9 Bean Rows. Its a sign of maturity to express appreciation at the success of others, whether it be nations or individuals.
The caveat lies in the successful ones not being too brash regards their achievements. Edward Gibbon noted it in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The British, I trust with good grace, succumbed / adjusted to their new reality of international status. For America it will involve some trauma if the scales do eventually tip adversely.

[Dinkleberry2010]

In every generation there are those who state and who believe that America is in decline, but it really picked up steam in the 1950s. Just read some of the Beat poets such as Ferlinghetti who were convinced they were witnessing the death of America before their very eyes. In the 1960s it became even more intense, but with this difference: there were some American writers who not only believed that America was dying but who actually rejoiced in it and celebrated it. Here is what I say, and I say it without apology: America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most tolerant and most creative country on the face of the earth. That is a simple fact.

[Haunted]

America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most tolerant and most creative country on the face of the earth. That is a simple fact.

Scholars and critics can theorize and intellectualize the decline of America as much as they want, but I've personally met and worked with some of the movers and shakers of America's upper echelon to know that this is indeed a simple and indisputable fact.

[WICKES]

Edward Gibbon noted it in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The British, I trust with good grace, succumbed / adjusted to their new reality of international status. For America it will involve some trauma if the scales do eventually tip adversely.

The USA will remain a major power in the 21st century, but it will no longer be the unrivalled superpower. Their power/status won't decline as suddenly and dramatically as Britain's (which lost the largest Empire in history in just a few years) but they will have to adjust. Unlike Britain, the USA is physically large.

The rest of the world (especially Asia) is simply copying the free market capitalism/ technology that made the USA so powerful. This is a tragedy imo. The whole world has been smothered in ugly, crude American culture: Mc Donalds, baseball caps, hip hop...At least when the British had their Empire they spread their 600 year old literature and civilisation. Perhaps the Chinese and Indians will share their great spiritual traditions as their influence grows. Anything will be better than trashy Hollywood films, coca cola, Gangsta rap and Oprah Winfrey.

Here is what I say, and I say it without apology: America is the freest, most liberal, most generous, most tolerant and most creative country on the face of the earth. That is a simple fact.

Simply isn't true. The USA is certainly free. It is more democratic than many countries, but it isn't the most free or most democratic. In 2007 The Economist magazine ranked different nations according to how democratic they really are (when you cut through all the mawkish speeches). The USA did very well, but was ranked below Sweden (number 1), Norway, Australia, Canada and Holland. It was level with the UK, France and Spain. You have complete freedom of speech in all these places (have you seen how the British ridicule their Royal Family!- Americans would never ridicule their president like that)

You say it is the most liberal. But you still have the death penalty! You execute women and the mentally disturbed. Most of western Europe and Australia have banned it.

You say it is the most tolerant, yet gay marriage/ civil partnerships are legal in Holland, UK etc but not in many states in the USA. There is definitely a more positive attitude towards homosexuality in western Europe, Canada and Australia than in much of the USA because the USA is far more religious. The same goes for abortion. There is a powerful, fundamentalist Christian right in the USA which just doesn't exist in Australia, Canada or Britain.

The French and Italians are more creative and artistic than Americans. Compare European films to the cliche riddled, sentimental, PC garbage churned out by Hollywood! The Europeans have thousands of years of culture and civilisation built up behind them. You can't buy Chartres cathedral or the 14th century Oxford colleges.

I have travelled a great deal and I like Americans a lot. You are a very generous, liberal, warm hearted, free people. But you are not the most liberal or free. France, Holland, the UK, Australia, Sweden, Norway...all these places are more liberal and civlised than the USA. If I was a homosexual, liberal atheist who suported abortion and opposed the death penalty I would feel very uncomfortable in most of the USA. I would head for London or Stockholm.

[Dinkleberry2010]

wickes, you have your opinion and I have mine--that's fine.

[stlukesguild]

The USA is certainly free. It is more democratic than many countries, but it isn't the most free or most democratic. In 2007 The Economist magazine ranked different nations according to how democratic they really are (when you cut through all the mawkish speeches). The USA did very well, but was ranked below Sweden (number 1), Norway, Australia, Canada and Holland.

How does one measure the degree of Democracy, one wonders? If Sweden is indeed the most Democratic nation how has this affected the quality of life... perhaps one might look at suicide rates... or their contributions to the rest of the world?

It was level with the UK, France and Spain. You have complete freedom of speech in all these places (have you seen how the British ridicule their Royal Family!- Americans would never ridicule their president like that).

It would seem that you don't know much about American politics... or late night television. Criticizing and even making fun of sitting presidents is virtually a spectator sport.

You say it is the most liberal. But you still have the death penalty!

It is arguable as to whether that is good or bad. Certain crimes such as child molestation and mass murder seem to call for more than a slap on the wrist.

You execute women and the mentally disturbed. Most of western Europe and Australia have banned it.

So are we to assume that women should have equal rights to men but not be held accountable to the same standards? Treatment of those with mental illness in general is something tat needs to be addressed in the US. The reality is that a great deal of the problem concerning mental illness is a direct result of misguided liberal approaches to their treatment which were in turn the result of horrific treatment by earlier generations in mental asylums (as seen in a film such as One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).

You say it is the most tolerant, yet gay marriage/ civil partnerships are legal in Holland, UK etc but not in many states in the USA. There is definitely a more positive attitude towards homosexuality in western Europe, Canada and Australia than in much of the USA because the USA is far more religious.

While there is a separation of Church and State this in no way precludes those with deeply-held religious beliefs from participation in the government (voting). Change is coming... certainly within a generation. I would suggest that it is economics as much as religion that stands in the way. Many businesses would rather not need to provide insurance coverage for domestic partners... for anyone they didn't have to.

The same goes for abortion. There is a powerful, fundamentalist Christian right in the USA which just doesn't exist in Australia, Canada or Britain.

Abortion is certainly legal in the US and has been for years. There are those who oppose it, certainly. Perhaps your notion of a liberal state is one in which dissenting voices are silenced? personally, I don't believe anyone is "pro-abortion" (rah-rah!) but for those unprepared or incapable of caring for another human being it may indeed be the only possible choice. Better education upon sex is certainly a better alternative.

The French and Italians are more creative and artistic than Americans.

Now that's just pure ignorance. How many great visual artists (painters and sculptors) have come out of France or Italy in the last 50 years? How many writers and poets of real merit? How many composers of serious music? How about leading architects? Innovators in Science, Medicine, and Technology. Are France of Italy leading the digital/computer revolution?

Compare European films to the cliche riddled, sentimental, PC garbage churned out by Hollywood!

Compare which European films to which Hollywood films? 90% of all art is mediocre at best. While Hollywood might churn out more schlock than the European film industries it is simply because the Hollywood machine is so huge. The American film industry... in Hollywood and elsewhere... has churned out far more than its fair share of truly classic films.

The Europeans have thousands of years of culture and civilisation built up behind them. You can't buy Chartres cathedral or the 14th century Oxford colleges.

The past is the past. Emerson argued that he would rather be part of a young culture that was still developing than part of an ancient culture in decline. Of course you deal in the present with what you have. Arguing that one culture is superior to another at present upon e basis of past achievements is like a smug pride in the achievements of one's ancestors... which you had nothing to do with. Can you buy Chartres? Perhaps not... but then again... if I recall London Bridge was last seen in Arizona, the Temple of Dendor was housed in the Met, and any number of medieval monasteries are now to be found in American museums... to say nothing of the paintings, books, etc...

Having said all this, I will be the first to admit that the US has any number of problems. I have long thought that many of these relate to our history... and current reality as a nation of immigrants. 35% of the US population call themselves immigrants. Immigrants are among our greatest resources: they are often highly motivated and hard working. It takes great motivation to move to a foreign nation where you will need to learn the laws, customs... even the language. As a result of our history as a nation of immigrants we have long held to the notion that we are a nation of "rugged individuals". We are suspicious of big government ("socialism"), the police, the welfare state, etc... Our suspicion of government and other authorities undoubtedly plays a role in our refusal to surrender our right to own guns. There is even a distrust of funding public education (primary... and especially post-secondary). We spend far more upon our military ventures than upon education... and yet it is almost certainly the decline in education that spells the most serious threat to the nation. The greatest asset we have in countering this are out immigrants. The greatest nations/states in economic, cultural, and even military terms have always been those that are the most open to outside influences. Paris dominated the culture of the West from the time of the Revolution until the First World War. When one looks at the artists involved in this culture, an endless array were immigrants or traveled widely themselves (Rousseau, Friedrich Melchior, Baron von Grimm, Chopin, Liszt, Gluck, Rossini, Van Gogh, Whistler, Oscar Wilde, Huysmans, Picasso, Dali, Max Ernst, Miro, Chagall, Man Ray, James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, Giacometti, Modigliani, Soutine, Stravinsky, etc...

[Virgil]

Simply isn't true. The USA is certainly free. It is more democratic than many countries, but it isn't the most free or most democratic. In 2007 The Economist magazine ranked different nations according to how democratic they really are (when you cut through all the mawkish speeches). The USA did very well, but was ranked below Sweden (number 1), Norway, Australia, Canada and Holland. It was level with the UK, France and Spain. You have complete freedom of speech in all these places (have you seen how the British ridicule their Royal Family!- Americans would never ridicule their president like that)

Well, obviously whatever study was done by the The Economist was flawed. Some of those countries have over 60-70% tax systems. Thank God I get to keep 60-70% of the money I earn. When someone has the earnings from the sweat of their labor taken away at the point of a gun (and that's what happens if you don't pay your taxes, some form of a state police system comes to address the issue) then you are no better than a partial slave. Slavery, the opposite of freedom, is being forced to work for no pay. Working for 40% of the value of your work makes you a 60% slave and only 40% free. Economic freedom is at the heart of liberty.

You say it is the most liberal. But you still have the death penalty! You execute women and the mentally disturbed. Most of western Europe and Australia have banned it.

That's a value, not a freedom. I assume there is a penal system in those countries as well. How penalties are derived are based on values.

You say it is the most tolerant, yet gay marriage/ civil partnerships are legal in Holland, UK etc but not in many states in the USA. There is definitely a more positive attitude towards homosexuality in western Europe, Canada and Australia than in much of the USA because the USA is far more religious. The same goes for abortion. There is a powerful, fundamentalist Christian right in the USA which just doesn't exist in Australia, Canada or Britain.

Again that's a value, not a freedom. I assume those countries don't allow incest and bigomy. How marriages are structured are based on cultural values. And to me the killing of an unborn child, who is innocent, powerless, and voiceless, is as unfree and unliberal as humanly possible.

EDIT: The last two responses I was assuming you were referring to classical liberalism, not political Liberalism (with a capital "L"). If you're talking about political Liberalism, who the hell cares. I would be proud not to be associated with political Liberalism.

[billl]

I just want to point out that, for some (in the U.S. in particular), to say that taxation by an elected government is slavery might seem unfair to the memory of those who suffered under the sort of oppression more commonly referred to by the word "slavery."