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Thread: Let's Go Vegetarian

  1. #151
    Registered User caspian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBastable View Post
    I think the point of the original proposition was that the baby - uninformed and innocent - would eat the apple, which would somehow demonstrate the 'natural' state of affairs, unclouded by the learned behaviours of blah-de-blah and so on and so forth.

    If we're to accept that as the proof of something, then my uninformed baby would demonstrate the natural human preference for chicken nuggets over raw parsnip.

    As it happens, following a visit to a farm, I did explain to my kids that the piglets they'd seen were destined to become sausages. The seven-year-old immediately demanded to become vegetarian, which we allowed. She got bored with it in about three days. The five-year-old was utterly unconcerned, and demanded a bacon sandwich as soon as she got home.
    But if uninformed baby's never been introdused to chicken nuggets before most likely the result for baby's apetite would be "nuggets = raw parsnip".

    I wish I was never been introduced to meat meals, or was allergic to it. I'm not doing any better than your seven year old while trying to take animal dishes out of my diet. But I still don't dare try this with my 3 year old child. she doesn't like beef, i blend it into her soup.

    These kind of threads are so banal... posting animal pictures..

    however, It was Thomas Hardy who made me think over my eating. I wonder how much Hardy himself was enjoying pork chops.
    I couldn't even finish the chapter but it was enough to get one more point (one less eater) for cows and chicken; my record is half clean; I've never eaten any other animals, including sea food

    "Jude the Obscure" Chapter 10

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    The time arrived for killing the pig which Jude and his wife had
    fattened in their sty during the autumn months, and the butchering
    was timed to take place as soon as it was light in the morning, so
    that Jude might get to Alfredston without losing more than a quarter
    of a day.

    The night had seemed strangely silent. Jude looked out of the window
    long before dawn, and perceived that the ground was covered with
    snow--snow rather deep for the season, it seemed, a few flakes still
    falling.

    "I'm afraid the pig-killer won't be able to come," he said to
    Arabella.

    "Oh, he'll come. You must get up and make the water hot, if you want
    Challow to scald him. Though I like singeing best."

    "I'll get up," said Jude. "I like the way of my own county."

    He went downstairs, lit the fire under the copper, and began feeding
    it with bean-stalks, all the time without a candle, the blaze
    flinging a cheerful shine into the room; though for him the sense of
    cheerfulness was lessened by thoughts on the reason of that blaze--to
    heat water to scald the bristles from the body of an animal that as
    yet lived, and whose voice could be continually heard from a corner
    of the garden. At half-past six, the time of appointment with the
    butcher, the water boiled, and Jude's wife came downstairs.

    "Is Challow come?" she asked.

    "No."

    They waited, and it grew lighter, with the dreary light of a snowy
    dawn. She went out, gazed along the road, and returning said, "He's
    not coming. Drunk last night, I expect. The snow is not enough to
    hinder him, surely!"

    "Then we must put it off. It is only the water boiled for nothing.
    The snow may be deep in the valley."

    "Can't be put off. There's no more victuals for the pig. He ate the
    last mixing o' barleymeal yesterday morning."

    "Yesterday morning? What has he lived on since?"

    "Nothing."

    "What--he has been starving?"

    "Yes. We always do it the last day or two, to save bother with the
    innerds. What ignorance, not to know that!"

    "That accounts for his crying so. Poor creature!"

    "Well--you must do the sticking--there's no help for it. I'll show
    you how. Or I'll do it myself--I think I could. Though as it is
    such a big pig I had rather Challow had done it. However, his basket
    o' knives and things have been already sent on here, and we can use
    'em."

    "Of course you shan't do it," said Jude. "I'll do it, since it must
    be done."

    He went out to the sty, shovelled away the snow for the space of a
    couple of yards or more, and placed the stool in front, with the
    knives and ropes at hand. A robin peered down at the preparations
    from the nearest tree, and, not liking the sinister look of the
    scene, flew away, though hungry. By this time Arabella had joined
    her husband, and Jude, rope in hand, got into the sty, and noosed the
    affrighted animal, who, beginning with a squeak of surprise, rose to
    repeated cries of rage. Arabella opened the sty-door, and together
    they hoisted the victim on to the stool, legs upward, and while Jude
    held him Arabella bound him down, looping the cord over his legs to
    keep him from struggling.

    The animal's note changed its quality. It was not now rage, but the
    cry of despair; long-drawn, slow and hopeless.

    "Upon my soul I would sooner have gone without the pig than have had
    this to do!" said Jude. "A creature I have fed with my own hands."

    "Don't be such a tender-hearted fool! There's the sticking-knife--
    the one with the point. Now whatever you do, don't stick un too
    deep."

    "I'll stick him effectually, so as to make short work of it. That's
    the chief thing."

    "You must not!" she cried. "The meat must be well bled, and to do
    that he must die slow. We shall lose a shilling a score if the meat
    is red and bloody! Just touch the vein, that's all. I was brought
    up to it, and I know. Every good butcher keeps un bleeding long.
    He ought to be eight or ten minutes dying, at least."

    "He shall not be half a minute if I can help it, however the meat may
    look," said Jude determinedly. Scraping the bristles from the pig's
    upturned throat, as he had seen the butchers do, he slit the fat;
    then plunged in the knife with all his might.

    "'Od damn it all!" she cried, "that ever I should say it! You've
    over-stuck un! And I telling you all the time--"

    "Do be quiet, Arabella, and have a little pity on the creature!"

    "Hold up the pail to catch the blood, and don't talk!"

    However unworkmanlike the deed, it had been mercifully done. The
    blood flowed out in a torrent instead of in the trickling stream she
    had desired. The dying animal's cry assumed its third and final
    tone, the shriek of agony; his glazing eyes riveting themselves on
    Arabella with the eloquently keen reproach of a creature recognizing
    at last the treachery of those who had seemed his only friends
    Last edited by caspian; 12-15-2009 at 03:47 PM.

  2. #152
    Registered User caspian's Avatar
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    "However unworkmanlike the deed, it had been mercifully done. The
    blood flowed out in a torrent instead of in the trickling stream she
    had desired. The dying animal's cry assumed its third and final
    tone, the shriek of agony; his glazing eyes riveting themselves on
    Arabella with the eloquently keen reproach of a creature recognizing
    at last the treachery of those who had seemed his only friends.

    "Make un stop that!" said Arabella. "Such a noise will bring
    somebody or other up here, and I don't want people to know we are
    doing it ourselves." Picking up the knife from the ground whereon
    Jude had flung it, she slipped it into the gash, and slit the
    windpipe. The pig was instantly silent, his dying breath coming
    through the hole.

    "That's better," she said.

    "It is a hateful business!" said he.

    "Pigs must be killed."

    The animal heaved in a final convulsion, and, despite the rope,
    kicked out with all his last strength. A tablespoonful of black
    clot came forth, the trickling of red blood having ceased for some
    seconds.

    "That's it; now he'll go," said she. "Artful creatures--they always
    keep back a drop like that as long as they can!"

    The last plunge had come so unexpectedly as to make Jude stagger, and
    in recovering himself he kicked over the vessel in which the blood
    had been caught.

    "There!" she cried, thoroughly in a passion. "Now I can't make any
    blackpot. There's a waste, all through you!"

    Jude put the pail upright, but only about a third of the whole
    steaming liquid was left in it, the main part being splashed over
    the snow, and forming a dismal, sordid, ugly spectacle--to those who
    saw it as other than an ordinary obtaining of meat. The lips and
    nostrils of the animal turned livid, then white, and the muscles of
    his limbs relaxed.

    "Thank God!" Jude said. "He's dead."

    "What's God got to do with such a messy job as a pig-killing, I
    should like to know!" she said scornfully. "Poor folks must live."

    "I know, I know," said he. "I don't scold you."

    Suddenly they became aware of a voice at hand.

    "Well done, young married volk! I couldn't have carried it out much
    better myself, cuss me if I could!" The voice, which was husky,
    came from the garden-gate, and looking up from the scene of slaughter
    they saw the burly form of Mr. Challow leaning over the gate,
    critically surveying their performance.

    "'Tis well for 'ee to stand there and glane!" said Arabella. "Owing
    to your being late the meat is blooded and half spoiled! 'Twon't
    fetch so much by a shilling a score!"

    Challow expressed his contrition. "You should have waited a bit"
    he said, shaking his head, "and not have done this--in the delicate
    state, too, that you be in at present, ma'am. 'Tis risking yourself
    too much."

    "You needn't be concerned about that," said Arabella, laughing.
    Jude too laughed, but there was a strong flavour of bitterness in
    his amusement.

    Challow made up for his neglect of the killing by zeal in the
    scalding and scraping. Jude felt dissatisfied with himself as a man
    at what he had done, though aware of his lack of common sense, and
    that the deed would have amounted to the same thing if carried out by
    deputy. The white snow, stained with the blood of his fellow-mortal,
    wore an illogical look to him as a lover of justice, not to say a
    Christian; but he could not see how the matter was to be mended. No
    doubt he was, as his wife had called him, a tender-hearted fool.
    Last edited by caspian; 12-15-2009 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #153
    www.markbastable.co.uk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madame X View Post
    ...this type of moral capriciousness I tend to observe in the behaviour of others is nonetheless quite baffling to behold.
    Oh, I agree. I'm against neighbours beating dogs - and I'm not even very fond of dogs. On the other hand, I have no qualms about eating beef. Would I be prepared to kill the cow myself? Probably not. But I don't have to. I pay someone else to do it and that's fine by me.

    In exactly the same way, I'm not prepared to treat sewage, but I'm glad someone does. I have no idea how my car works, but I know a man who'll fix it when it goes wrong. I am not about to tackle burglars and drug dealers, but I'm very grateful that my brother and my dad wanted to become policemen. And nothing on God's earth would persuade me to go to the opera, but I think it's important to subsidise the arts out of government funds to which I contribute.

    It's not possible to live life under the theoretical threat of 'what if you had to do it yourself?' We live in a society in which tasks are divided up and handed out to specialists. If I gave up meat on the basis that I couldn't bring myself to kill a cow, I'd have to give up wine too, on the basis that I'm not about to tread grapes, and I'd have to give up driving, on the basis that I'm not prepared to drill for my own petroleum.

  4. #154
    Registered User billl's Avatar
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    That's not a strong argument Mark. I don't think the idea is that someone would be asking you to make a career at it, that sort of vegetarian argument asks only IF you would even once do it, hypothetically. Nothing about careers, whether you would be skilled at it, or it being an actual necessary ticket to receiving the service of others doing it. Just, would you be fine with it, morally, after having done it.

    For me, it is good food for thought, but I think there are hypothetical (survival-type) situations in which a lot of vegetarians would kill and animal and eat it. And I can't say I see any compelling case against those who hunt or raise animals to eat, or even "sportsmen" who manage to clean and consume what they kill, etc.

    I think the hypothetical that I have in mind is: Could I hang out in a factory farm and/or modern slaughterhouse and eat what I had witnessed. And I don't doubt that, through the magic of forgetting (and paychecks) or whatever, some people could, and in fact do.
    Last edited by billl; 12-15-2009 at 02:38 PM.

  5. #155
    www.markbastable.co.uk
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    Quote Originally Posted by billl View Post
    That's not a strong argument Mark. I don't think the idea is that someone would be asking you to make a career at it, that sort of vegetarian argument asks only IF you would even once do it, hypothetically.
    I think it's a very strong argument, otherwise I wouldn't have made it.

    But - okay - no. I wouldn't slaughter a cow.

    Somehow, even having admitted that, I still don't feel persuaded not to eat meat.

    However, what if I'd said I would? Would that entitle me to eat meat?
    Last edited by MarkBastable; 12-15-2009 at 03:14 PM.

  6. #156
    Registered User billl's Avatar
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    Yes, I think it would. (Although I am not talking about "entitlement," I'm just saying you'll have made a solid and consistent case, instead of simply turning a blind eye out of convenience).

    I am sorry if it seemed I was criticizing your argument-making ability in general (I have seen enough of your posts not to do that, and I'll try to be more indirect in my disagreement in the future), I just thought that, in this case, there was no way to really parallel opera-singing, cleaning waste, and killing (in particular profit-driven slaughter). Certainly, cleaning and entertaining are morally different than the infliction of suffering for profit, and I think this is what the vegetarian argument is getting at. Whether the suffering is worth it for the level of meat-availability that it provides is, I think, something that a person that has actually witnessed/participated in it (or would be willing to, hypothetically) can reasonably claim to have considered.
    Last edited by billl; 12-15-2009 at 09:47 PM. Reason: shouldn't have changed "to do" to "not to do". The first time was the correct expression, and I mixed-up in my rush to go..

  7. #157
    www.markbastable.co.uk
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    Quote Originally Posted by billl View Post
    Yes, I think it would. (Although I am not talking about "entitlement," I'm just saying you'll have made a solid and consistent case, instead of simply turning a blind eye out of convenience).

    Okay, bring me the stun-gun and the machete. I'll kill a fricking cow. It'll be worth it just to trot out the experience every time a vegetarian tries to trap me in the 'would you wield the knife' corner.

    But I'll be killing the cow simply to please vegetarians - which is an interesting unintended consequence. For myself, I have no trouble turning convenient blind eyes.
    Last edited by MarkBastable; 12-20-2009 at 07:23 AM.

  8. #158
    Registered User Radha Krsna's Avatar
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    Albert Levi in the book The Meat Handbook: More than 70 kinds of livestock diseases known, can be transmitted to humans.

    In the UK, every year there are 40 million chickens piece that die from the disease ...

    Journal of the American Medical Association: 97% from a variety of heart disease, there are actually 90% of them can be prevented through vegetarian diet.

    Senator George McGovern said: In America, of the 10 leading causes of death, there are 6 main causes associated with eating meat.

  9. #159
    Internal nebulae TheFifthElement's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radha Krsna View Post
    Journal of the American Medical Association: 97% from a variety of heart disease, there are actually 90% of them can be prevented through vegetarian diet.
    Here's another interesting statistic: 100% of vegetarians die. Unless you're proposing that vegetarianism is a route to immortality?
    Want to know what I think about books? Check out https://biisbooks.wordpress.com/

  10. #160
    answers rhetorical ?'s
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    I'll take my chances. Just out of curiosity, what are the six out of ten causes of death?

  11. #161
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    Being a vegetarian is better,
    This adds up health as well as life...
    Now a day as there is no guarantee for life,fleshy food adds up cholesterol which is to be completely negotiated to a level from the diet

  12. #162
    Card-carrying Medievalist Lokasenna's Avatar
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    Some friends and I went to an all-meat restaurant for the first time yesterday - and damn good it was to!
    "I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance. And when I saw my devil, I found him serious, thorough, profound, solemn: he was the spirit of gravity- through him all things fall. Not by wrath, but by laughter, do we slay. Come, let us slay the spirit of gravity!" - Nietzsche

  13. #163
    www.markbastable.co.uk
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    Having expressed your view at the top of the thread, to which there's been a lot of response both pro and con, what do you expect to add by posting this series of carefully selected citations? Do you think some of the carnivores are going to smack their foreheads and say, "Jeez - George McGovern's giving pro-veg health advice! I shall cease eating cattle forthwith!"

    It's starting to look, actually, as if you're not really interested in discussing, but pretty determined to propagandize.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radha Krsna View Post
    Albert Levi in the book The Meat Handbook: More than 70 kinds of livestock diseases known, can be transmitted to humans.

    In the UK, every year there are 40 million chickens piece that die from the disease ...

    Journal of the American Medical Association: 97% from a variety of heart disease, there are actually 90% of them can be prevented through vegetarian diet.

    Senator George McGovern said: In America, of the 10 leading causes of death, there are 6 main causes associated with eating meat.

  14. #164
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBastable View Post
    I think it's a very strong argument, otherwise I wouldn't have made it.

    But - okay - no. I wouldn't slaughter a cow.

    Somehow, even having admitted that, I still don't feel persuaded not to eat meat.

    However, what if I'd said I would? Would that entitle me to eat meat?
    The point about the slaughter of your own food is about realising and accepting the consequences of your actions. I think that many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it. We're not talking about extreme situations, but the day to day choices that people make.

    In an extreme situation I would eat meat and kill an animal for my, and my family's survival, just as I would have eaten the human bodies in that Andes air crash. This is not the point though. Very few Westerners are in that survivial situation and we have a choice about what we choose to eat.

    This is what the killing your own food point is about. Whether you buy it in supermarket, or hunt it down, it is a moral choice because it involves the suffering of another sentient being. I also think it is a choice an individual has to make, preferably with an appreciation of what really goes on. Preaching vegetarianism to people is counter productive and merely prompts sarcasm and extemity.

  15. #165
    Skol'er of Thinkery The Comedian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    The point about the slaughter of your own food is about realising and accepting the consequences of your actions. I think that many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it. We're not talking about extreme situations, but the day to day choices that people make.

    In an extreme situation I would eat meat and kill an animal for my, and my family's survival, just as I would have eaten the human bodies in that Andes air crash. This is not the point though. Very few Westerners are in that survivial situation and we have a choice about what we choose to eat.

    This is what the killing your own food point is about. Whether you buy it in supermarket, or hunt it down, it is a moral choice because it involves the suffering of another sentient being. I also think it is a choice an individual has to make, preferably with an appreciation of what really goes on. Preaching vegetarianism to people is counter productive and merely prompts sarcasm and extemity.
    Very well stated.
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