Is infidelity wrong?

[Poppy]

Then you do the decent thing and break-up, before you start messing around with other people.

Hear, Hear!

Granny and I were discussing this today. How do you fall "out" of love with someone?
Its beyond me or any concept that I have of love.

[SleepyWitch]

Then you do the decent thing and break-up, before you start messing around with other people.

what if you are married and you stop loving your partner (whatever this is supposed to mean) but you DON'T mess around with other people or don't love anyone else, anyway. technically, you wouldn't be unfaithful.
can't say I've been in this situation myself, but I'm sure there must be some couples who have been married for 20/30+ years and who are more like close friends and who are comfortable with that and can't even be bothered arguing about romantic love etc. So should such people get divorced because they don't "love" each other anymore?

[TheFifthElement]

Then you do the decent thing and break-up, before you start messing around with other people.

Which would also be immoral. After all haven't you vowed to stay with that person forever? According to your post breaking a vow is immoral and my question, which you avoided, is how far does that go?

Granny and I were discussing this today. How do you fall "out" of love with someone?
Its beyond me or any concept that I have of love.

People change Poppy. Perhaps they were never in love in the first place, perhaps they thought it was love but it wasn't. Perhaps they forgot that staying in love is not a given, it takes work. Perhaps they assumed that once you've made your vows that's it and stopped making any effort. Sometimes people get used to the routine of each other and call that love and then they experience something else and realise it isn't. It can happen in a multitude of ways. Have you never lost touch with a good friend, or family?

You and Granny5 are lucky, you've sustained your relationship for a long time on a loving basis. Not everyone is so lucky or determined. You'd be surprised how much apathy there is out there.

[wessexgirl]

Which would also be immoral. After all haven't you vowed to stay with that person forever? According to your post breaking a vow is immoral and my question, which you avoided, is how far does that go?

I haven't avoided anything. I think the thread is asking if infidelity is immoral. I stand by that, it is. You can put forward as many hypothetical scenarios as you want, in order to dilute the original question, but if you fall out of love with your partner, do the decent thing and end it before you betray them with someone else. That may "technically" be breaking a vow, but in the long run is much more honourable, and less hurtful for the couple, as at least they haven't had the betrayal of bringing a third person into the equation, before the dust has settled on a break-up. While there may be some grey areas in your outlook, I believe there are some things which have to have a line drawn which you do not cross. Betraying a spouse is one of them.

[Jozanny]

wessex, I have read your posts, and I do not make light of how devastated you must have been on a personal level, but different people make different choices, and sometimes they are able to still live with the person who strays, and yes, I stand by what I posted--you do not know the dynamics of Woods' marital status, none of us do, and I could see, if I had to constantly present my face to the public as the golden boy, that this pressure might become too much of a strain. To me Woods is proving he's human.

I do not believe in vengeance; it never fixes what hurt us in the first place. Hilary Clinton seems able to live with that calculus. She knows what her husband is, but they are more than the sum of their parts, and she values that, and their power together, and I think Master Bubba really cares about her.

Me? I almost married more for appearances sake than anything else, and the romantic visions of an able-bodied man who would have rescued me from the brutal nature of American socialism probably never would have held water. I have been hurt, but I would do what I have done again for the sake of enjoying intimacy, and as for your situation, I hope you've found the right man who considers the privilege of standing by you a joy, but I still cannot apologize for preferring understanding over condemnation.

[TheFifthElement]

I haven't avoided anything.

Actually you did. Back at post 179 I asked a specific question which you still haven't answered. You said that breaking the marriage vow is immoral and I asked how far does that go. What is infidelity? The marriage vow includes a vow to love the other person, to honour them. If you no longer love or honour the person but do not have sex with or enter into a relationship with another person you have still broken your vow which, by your definition, is still immoral. If you fall in love with someone other than your spouse, is this adultery? Even if you never act on it? You have still broken your vow. Now it seems you have said it is 'technically' breaking a vow, but what's the distinction between a 'technical' breach and a breach? Why is it kind of okay to break one part of a vow, but not another? Is it okay to not take seriously the part about 'loving' someone and staying with them forever, but not the part about fidelity?

These are not hypothetical situations, I know people in these situations. Are they immoral? That's my question or rather that's what I'm trying to understand. Is infidelity just about sex? And is it an immoral act to break the marriage vow, or just the part about fidelity?

I'll give you a specific example. I knew a woman once, actually she was a family member. She got married at the age of 19 and she had 4 children with her husband. After a while she became discontented and she left her husband for a short period, but he convinced her to go back and give it another try. So she did, but he never trusted her. Gradually he took her life apart. He took away her access to the bank account on the pretext that she couldn't be trusted with money (money was tight) and instead he gave her £2 a day to cover the cost of her lunch and her bus fare and that was all. If she wanted to buy something she had to ask permission, even though she earned a significant amount of their money working a 48 hour week in a factory. He turned her children against her by always telling them that was a bad mother and she'd abandoned them, and they believed it after all she hardly saw them because she was always working, and when she did see them she was exhausted. She had no respect in the home. He convinced her that she was 'bad' and 'worthless', because she'd left him once and he couldn't trust her anymore. This went on for years. When I found out her situation I tried to help her, but she wouldn't let me. She said she'd put up with it until the children were grown up, and then she'd leave him. Then she met someone and she had an affair, and as a result of this she left her husband. She had a choice, but so did her husband. He could have chosen to honour his vow to love and honour her, but he didn't. After she broke up with him we also discovered that he had attempted to 'convince' her underage younger sister to enter into a sexual relationship with him, but had fortunately failed. The sister hadn't said anything because she was convinced no one would believe her as he always seemed like such a nice guy and everyone liked him. He was a very skilled manipulator.

Ideally she would have found the strength and the courage and the self-belief to get out of the relationship some other way, and I wish she had. But in the end she couldn't. She had no hope and no exit and the affair gave her both of those things. Yes, she was weak and she made mistakes. But is she immoral and does she deserve to be condemned? You see I have difficulty with the notion that we should automatically condemn her, and that her husband is automatically deserving of our sympathy. Because she broke the fidelity vow do you turn a blind eye to the abuse of trust that her husband committed and badge him as the victim? In my view they both did things wrong and they were both victims. It's not a black and white judgement.

Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating infidelity, not in the least bit. But as Jozanny said, I do advocate understanding before blanket condemnation.

[SleepyWitch]

I came across this article about different "styles" of love. Maybe this explains how you can 'love' several people at a time, because you can experience a different style of love with each of them?

The Experience of "Being In Love" Is Not The Same For Everyone

Not everyone experiences love in exactly the same manner.

Research has shown that love comes in several different forms or styles (see, Lee and Regan). For the most part, people experience love as a blend of two or three of the styles listed below. Essentially, people have different notions of what it means to "be in love."

Styles of Love:

Eros – some people experience love with a lot of passion, intimacy and intensity. Love based on Eros has a strong sexual and emotional component. People who experience love this way want to be emotionally and physically close to their romantic partners and they tend to idealize love. Such love is marked by passion as well as compassion (kindness and consideration). Eros is best viewed as romantic, passionate love - the type of love that creates excitement at the beginning of a new relationship.

Ludus – some people experience love as a game to be played with other people’s emotions. The goal or desire is to gain control over a partner through manipulation. People who experience love as Ludus like to have multiple love interests where they are in complete control. Lying, cheating and deception are common for people who experience love as Ludus – it’s all part of the game. For people who experience love as Ludus, it is satisfying to outwit a partner and exploit his or her weak spots (see, husband plays with my heart, who is likely to cheat, lovefraud).

Storge – some people experience love as a gradual and slow process. When love is based on Storge, getting to know someone comes before having intense feelings for that person. Love based on Storge takes time, it requires genuine liking and understanding of a partner, and it develops slowly over time. Love based on Storge is often compared to the love that one has for a friend. In fact, people who experience love as Storge often fall in love with their friends.

Agape – some people experience love as caregiving. Love is the overwhelming desire to want to take care of a partner - a parental or nurturing type of love. Love based on Agape is attentive, caring, compassionate and kind - a more altruistic or selfless type of love.

Mania – some people experience love as being out of control. Love is an overwhelming experience; it turns one’s life upside down and it results in a complete loss of one’s identity. Love based on Mania is crazy, impulsive and needy. People who experience love as Mania fall in love quickly, but their love tends to consume them. Love experienced as Mania also tends to burnout before it gets the chance to mature. Such love is often marked by extreme delusions, feelings of being out of control, rash decisions, and vulnerability. People who experience love as Mania are easily taken advantage of by people who experience love as Ludus.

Pragma – some people take a practical approach to love. Love is not crazy, intense, or out of control. Love is based on common sense and reason. People who experience love as Pragma tend to pick a suitable mate the way most other people make serious life decisions: picking a partner is based on careful consideration and reason. Practical concerns underlie this type of love.

The love styles listed above have also been linked to one’s style of attachment (see, Levy and Davis).

* Eros and Agape are linked to Secure Attachment
* Mania is linked to Anxious Attachment
* Ludus is linked to Dismissing Attachment

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/r...ve_styles.html

[Granny5]

Sleepy, Based on Poppy and my relationship, I have to say that our relationship is a mixture of several of the different types of love you list. We have had from the beginning a Eros type of love, very exciting and emotional and passionate. But we also have elements of agape and mania in our relationship. But, since we are both pretty pragmatic, we would not have married if we had not felt that each would be a good partner and parent. We would have not married believing that our marriage would fail. We both love others in ways that do not involve romance. I love my children, my brothers, my cousins, my friends. But it's not the same as loving my husband. We've both worked hard at making our love last and our relationship stronger every day. It's just not enough to love someone and expect it to last. Trust and belief in each other is a must to keep growing. We both believe that infidelity would betray our trust in each other and would possibly do damage that couldn't be repaired. Respect for each other, our vows, and our family just won't allow for others entering into our relationship in that way.

[TheFifthElement]

Sleepy, that's a really interesting website. There's a lot of good stuff in there. I agree that there are different types of love, I think we all know deep down that there are. I could say categorically that I currently love three men: one is my husband, another is my son, and another is a friend I've known for a good few years. Romantically I love my husband the most, but I'd kick my hubby into touch if he threatened my son, so do I love my son more than my husband? I love my friend, but then I wouldn't choose him over my husband. Is it a matter of quantification, or preference? I don't really know the answer.

[JuniperWoolf]

I have a question that might have been asked, but I haven't been through the whole thread:

Is it cheating if you have permission from your partner?

I'd have to agree, though I am unsure how I stand on morals, I tend to run my life by what is considered proper etiquette and manner, and, on those grounds, infidelity is certainly ill mannered.

Oh man, I love you JBI.

[Dorian Gray]

Some people actually doubt cheating is bad? Okaaaay.

[TheFifthElement]

It's just not enough to love someone and expect it to last.

Wise words Granny5

[1n50mn14]

Is it cheating if you have permission from your partner?

That depends on how you got that permission. I was pretty much TOLD going into my current relationship (which started when I was fifteen) that it was going to be an open relationship. I was very meek and accepted that, but there were always hints. I told him more than once, in roundabout ways, I didn't like it, and I think my attitude and hint dropping should have given it away. Anyway, I grew up eventually and said, 'This can't happen anymore,'

but in that case, I would consider it still cheating, as he has admitted NOW that he knew how I felt the entire time, and just kept going to extort that admission from me that I hated it.

[The Comedian]

Is it cheating if you have permission from your partner?

I don't think so. Cheating implies a betrayal of trust. If you and your partner have given the green light to other, um, entertainments, then neither one of you are cheating. You're both just being honest and adventurous.

[soundofmusic]

I don't think so. Cheating implies a betrayal of trust. If you and your partner have given the green light to other, um, entertainments, then neither one of you are cheating. You're both just being honest and adventurous.

I wonder what the longest time a marriage has ever lasted after both partners, or one partner has been given the green light?