Let's Go Vegetarian

[Red-Headed]

It makes no evolutionary sense for plants to have a pain response. Pain is a warning not to continue to do something, or to run away from it. It is a great way to induce behavior in a complex conscious organism. Plants don't have to make decisions whether to move or not, thus any responses to stresses are simply immediate chemical responses.

Strangely; plants will react to a polygraph if part of them is damaged. In my opinion this does not mean that they are necessarily sentient, but it is a form of distress. Just because a turnip or a beansprout doesn't cry out when you strike it doesn't mean it doesn't feel some form of pain.

A preference utilitarian would tell you that only a human with conscious preference not to die has a right not to be killed. Peter Singer supports infanticide up until a few months old, because he considers infants pre-conscious.

I am pretty sure animals don't wish to die & become food. We probably underestimate animal intelligence anyway. My entire point is still that the only reason we are having this debate is because tomatoes don't scream & bleed when they are plucked from the vine.

I have no idea who Pete Singer is.

[OrphanPip]

Peter Singer is one of the most influential living philosophers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

Edit: He's worth reading

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPtYA...eature=related

[Red-Headed]

Peter Singer is one of the most influential living philosophers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

Edit: He's worth reading

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPtYA...eature=related

I think I actually have read Singer a long time ago. I just couldn't recall the name. Most of the philosophers I read have been dead quite a while!

[Zee.]

Whether humans were designed to eat meat and whether the way in which animals in modern day time are killed to sustain us - are two separate arguments.


Someone mentioned native americans further back. They never let a single part of the animals they killed go to waste, and they were always killed in a respectable manner.

These days, the way animals are treated is a disgrace

[1n50mn14]

I decided to take a break from being vegetarian at Christmas two years ago, because I was living with a phenomenal cook who made amazing east coast meat-y Christmas dinners. Then I moved to a country of meats. I'm just getting back into being veggie, now...

[stlukesguild]

from the Cornell press release I posted earlier, cows in the USA consume 22 million tons of grain a year, for 7 million tons of cow. Most of that grain is consumed in the feed lots where industrial slaughter operations gather the animals and fatten them up as fast as possible to maximize their profits.

And what exactly is your point? The US grows more than enough food to feed its population... and could feed even more... and so...? We should be truly altruistic and give up our prime rib (mmm...prime rib) so that we could feed the rest of the world that already loves us so much. And in return we'll get...? A warm and fuzzy feeling all over?

[Paulclem]

I never thought of meat as being an important source of vitamins, but it turns out that there is one very important vitamin that comes primarily from things that vegans don't eat: Vitamin B-12. The rest of the vitamins and minerals seem to be coming from other things just fine, no need to eat meat for them.

I eat a TON of cheese, so I get plenty of B-12. (Eggs work, too). But my brief internet research has encountered a pretty serious warning to vegans (vegetarians who don't even eat eggs, cheese, milk, etc.) that they need to watch out for this B-12 thing, and the answer is probably to take a vitamin supplement or some fortified cereal or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...ources_of_B-12

I have also heard that vegans should be careful to get enough calcium (again, people who eat plenty of cheese should be fine in regards to calcium).

Basically, I'm no doctor or nutritionist, but I think B-12 and calcium are the only big concerns, and that is mainly just for vegans.

The b-12 thing is not an issue with vegans. They tend to be people who are careful about what they eat, and are more informed than many of us about their requirements. One B-12 substitute in England is marmite, though not everyone likes it...

You can also get vegan cheese, which used to be horrible. It had calcium in it. Since a lot of cheese in England is rennate free now, vegetarians are well served there.

Also, can you imagine the hoohah should the popular press find out about all the dead, B-12 deficient vegans?

By the way, did you know you can get vegetarian bacon? It's not really that much like bacon, but it's nice to have with eggs etc.

Before someone says, "why don't you eat meat then,you obviously really want to," - I'd like to re-iterate that taste is not the issue with me. I know all about what meat tastes like. My choice is for a different reason.

[OrphanPip]

And what exactly is your point? The US grows more than enough food to feed its population... and could feed even more... and so...? We should be truly altruistic and give up our prime rib (mmm...prime rib) so that we could feed the rest of the world that already loves us so much. And in return we'll get...? A warm and fuzzy feeling all over?

No, initially this stemmed from a post by Virgil, where he said that the value of cheap meat was vital for people to get an adequate diet. I responded with evidence that industrial farming processes are incredibly inefficient and waste huge amounts of food. The point is that industrial farming is wasteful and perhaps cruel.

Self-sacrifice isn't such a terrible thing either.

[billl]

By the way, did you know you can get vegetarian bacon? It's not really that much like bacon, but it's nice to have with eggs etc.

Stuff like that can be awesome, for sure.

I haven't tried the "bacons" that I've seen, but there was a company (MorningStar?) with green-colored packaging that makes great breakfast sausage patties (the sausage links are not as great). Maybe I'll give "bacon" a shot...

It was tough giving up meat, but for me, the taste of BBQ sauce or A-1 steak sauce was probably more important than the taste of the meat. That's what I missed more than anything. "Boca" Brand soy-burgers microwave easily, and allowed me to get the BBQ-sauce fix. The first few times, the lack of fat was a little unsatisfying, but I was excited because I used to take protein supplements when I was on a work-out kick, and these burgers were giving me about the same price per gram of protein as the disgusting powders I mixed in O.J. used to. Plus, it had been weeks maybe before I even tried the soy-burger option, because I knew they weren't the same, and I was excited at how they were much better than nothing by that point. After a week or two, I stopped missing the fat in regular burgers. They are every bit as good as the McDonald's $1 burger to me now, and half the price. Never tried the more expensive soy-burgers...

Boca's sausage links are also highly recommended--miraculous, in fact.

Nowadays, every once in a while I get the black bean burrito at Chipotle, and I enjoy it every bit as much as I used to enjoy the barbacoa.

[Paulclem]

Stuff like that can be awesome, for sure.

I haven't tried the "bacons" that I've seen, but there was a company (MorningStar?) with green-colored packaging that makes great breakfast sausage patties (the sausage links are not as great). Maybe I'll give "bacon" a shot...

It was tough giving up meat, but for me, the taste of BBQ sauce or A-1 steak sauce was probably more important than the taste of the meat. That's what I missed more than anything. "Boca" Brand soy-burgers microwave easily, and allowed me to get the BBQ-sauce fix. The first few times, the lack of fat was a little unsatisfying, but I was excited because I used to take protein supplements when I was on a work-out kick, and these burgers were giving me about the same price per gram of protein as the disgusting powders I mixed in O.J. used to. Plus, it had been weeks maybe before I even tried the soy-burger option, because I knew they weren't the same, and I was excited at how they were much better than nothing by that point. After a week or two, I stopped missing the fat in regular burgers. They are every bit as good as the McDonald's $1 burger to me now, and half the price. Never tried the more expensive soy-burgers...

Boca's sausage links are also highly recommended--miraculous, in fact.

Nowadays, every once in a while I get the black bean burrito at Chipotle, and I enjoy it every bit as much as I used to enjoy the barbacoa.

I've got used to the burgers too. We have them often.

We also have quorn over here, which is a mushroom of some kind. We quite like that. It has a good texture, and absorbs the sauce you cook it in. They do a good quorn roast, which is a bit like a meat roast. You have to carve it as well.

[*Classic*Charm*]

I'm not an advocate of completely stopping animal exploitation. I just think we should acknowledge that there is room for improvement in the current methods of industrial farming, whether for dairy, beef, chicken, pork, etc.

Arguably it would be better for the environment and more efficient to stop producing meat altogether, but this is an unrealistic expectation. There are other issues like water contamination/use and soil erosion. This is kind of a non-issue in a place like Canada, but in the Southern USA fresh water is getting scarcer every year and arable land is being depleted.

Boycotting meat produced by factory farms is a legitimate form of political expression. However, I think the only way any real change will occur is through legislation and sensible discussion of the issues. I don't think we can trust private industry to do anything except maximize its profits, so as consumers concerned with the ethical treatment of animals and the responsible use of resources we should remain vigilant and critical of the agricultural industry.

I don't drink milk because I'm lactose intolerant, but I know the PETA nuts are anti dairy farms these days. My grandfather ran a dairy farm, and I don't think any of his animals were particularly abused. I have significantly less faith in the agricultural industry today as the individual farmer becomes less and less relevant in the face of huge agribusiness.

GREAT POST Pip!! I don't agree with the idea of eliminating the meat industry- I think it unnecessary for the reasons I've already mentioned, but you've got a very, very solid evaluation here. There are certainly ways of making the industry more efficient/ improve things for the animals pre-slaughter, though it's a matter of cost for the farmers. You're very right to maintain a level of concern with how much farmers are willing to invest in maintaining standards of ethics in their business.

Oh PETA. I love the animals and am all for improving animal welfare, but PETA are unreasonable and ridiculous. I will never ever be associated with them.

Peter Singer is one of the most influential living philosophers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

Edit: He's worth reading

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPtYA...eature=related

True!

I never thought of meat as being an important source of vitamins, but it turns out that there is one very important vitamin that comes primarily from things that vegans don't eat: Vitamin B-12. The rest of the vitamins and minerals seem to be coming from other things just fine, no need to eat meat for them.

I eat a TON of cheese, so I get plenty of B-12. (Eggs work, too). But my brief internet research has encountered a pretty serious warning to vegans (vegetarians who don't even eat eggs, cheese, milk, etc.) that they need to watch out for this B-12 thing, and the answer is probably to take a vitamin supplement or some fortified cereal or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...ources_of_B-12

I have also heard that vegans should be careful to get enough calcium (again, people who eat plenty of cheese should be fine in regards to calcium).

Basically, I'm no doctor or nutritionist, but I think B-12 and calcium are the only big concerns, and that is mainly just for vegans.

Meat is a more well-known to be a source of other essential nutrients such as Iron and Phosphorus than as a source of vitamins (which are more abundant in plant sources). However, animal matter is the only source of both vitamins A and B-12. Vegetarians do manage to get Vitamin A without supplementation however because there are plant-based pre-cursors for Vit A. No such luck with B-12. (I had a whole lecture on B-12 today )

The b-12 thing is not an issue with vegans. They tend to be people who are careful about what they eat, and are more informed than many of us about their requirements. One B-12 substitute in England is marmite, though not everyone likes it...

You can also get vegan cheese, which used to be horrible. It had calcium in it. Since a lot of cheese in England is rennate free now, vegetarians are well served there.

Also, can you imagine the hoohah should the popular press find out about all the dead, B-12 deficient vegans?

Bill is right, Paul. You may be correct in saying that a lot of vegans are more careful and/or knowledgeable about their diet, but to say it's not a problem is an incorrect generalization. If there is one essential vitamin vegans should be concerned with, it's B-12. The ONLY way vegans are going to get this vitamin is through supplementation. The only reason this hasn't become a deficiency issue is because most soy products are now supplemented with it. A lot of vegans consume enough fortified soy products, or are taking vitamin capsules that they avoid this. For vegetarians (not vegans), cheese is a good source.

Also, there's no such thing as a vitamin substitute- marmite would be a source B-12 (though if you're eating the 100g serving it has listed on the label, you're WAY over the amount of Folic Acid you should be consuming). Sorry, just felt like getting picky

[billl]

Meat is a more well-known to be a source of other essential nutrients such as Iron and Phosphorus than as a source of vitamins (which are more abundant in plant sources). However, animal matter is the only source of both vitamins A and B-12. Vegetarians do manage to get Vitamin A without supplementation however because there are plant-based pre-cursors for Vit A...

Interesting and surprising (to me) to hear about this issue with Vitamin A. Here's a wikipedia link about it if anyone else is interested in what the "pre-cursors" thing is about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...noids_.28IU.29

Like ClassicCharm has already said, it isn't a really big deal--you can trust the nutritional info on your veggies.

[Virgil]

Someone mentioned native americans further back. They never let a single part of the animals they killed go to waste, and they were always killed in a respectable manner.

And today they let anything go to waste? Where did you get that? Any good business man uses every last scrap of resources for his benefit. Every inch of a cow is used, including grinding the bones down for bonemeal. I bet the native americans didn't use anywhere as much as modern industry does.

[Delta40]

Vegemite Is An Australian Icon

Vegemite was developed in 1922 by Australian food technologist, Cyril P Callister, and marketed by a Melbourne businessman, Fred Walker.

In 1923 Fred Walker purchased from Carlton and United Brewery the thick, dark, yeast paste left-over from the beer making process. He gave the paste to his chemist to see what could be done with it and from this previous waste product, ‘Vegemite’ was created.

It took some time for Vegemite to gain popularity. Walker promoted Vegemite as “The Vitamin vegetable paste for use in sandwiches, soups, stews and gravies…full of vitamins…” Vegemite’s reputation for nutrition was boosted when infant welfare centers recommended its use for toddlers to receive their quota of vitamins B1, B2 and Niacin, but the manufacturers failed to mention that it also contained 10% salt. It has since had its salt levels reduced but in its early days it was marketed as a ‘health’ food. In 1954 a radio jingle “Happy Little Vegemites” promoting it to children boosted sales enormously creating a generation of children that loved it.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Interesting and surprising (to me) to hear about this issue with Vitamin A. Here's a wikipedia link about it if anyone else is interested in what the "pre-cursors" thing is about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...noids_.28IU.29

Like ClassicCharm has already said, it isn't a really big deal--you can trust the nutritional info on your veggies.

To a point, yes, you can trust that eating your veggies is going to get you everything you need. But there are a lot of things that even well-informed vegans may not be aware of. For example- everyone is well aware the spinach is a good source of iron. Spinach does have high iron content, but what a lot of people don't know is that it also contains a compound which discourages the absorption of iron by the body. There are a lot of interactions which people aren't aware of.