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Thread: When Was Jesus Born

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    :) Stephweet :) stephofthenight's Avatar
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    Lightbulb When Was Jesus Born

    Ok, I know the immediate answer is Christmas... But I'm not so sure here is why.
    In the bible when its talking about his birth there is the baby lamb, this does not happen in the winter, sorry it just doesnt. I'm pretty sure it doesnt mention it being cold? The main thing is it had in that general area about trees being full or something to the sort. so is there anyone else who thinks that maybe jesus was born in the summer, or spring. Spring seems more likely to me than summer. but Perhaps we celbrate Christmas and Easter backwards? Because spring is still chili enough to need a manger to keep warm, and there would be baby lambs. What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? Do I make any since at all?

    "Be careful of quotes you find on the internet, they may not always be true" -Abraham Lincon-

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    Whatever... TurquoiseSunset's Avatar
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    Here you go Steph:

    I love Wikipedia


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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephofthenight View Post
    Ok, I know the immediate answer is Christmas... But I'm not so sure here is why.
    In the bible when its talking about his birth there is the baby lamb, this does not happen in the winter, sorry it just doesnt. I'm pretty sure it doesnt mention it being cold? The main thing is it had in that general area about trees being full or something to the sort. so is there anyone else who thinks that maybe jesus was born in the summer, or spring. Spring seems more likely to me than summer. but Perhaps we celbrate Christmas and Easter backwards? Because spring is still chili enough to need a manger to keep warm, and there would be baby lambs. What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? Do I make any since at all?
    Well, as you'll have found from the Wiki link, the date and year are entirely questionable.

    Given the paucity of historical evidence of Jesus' life, it could have been any time at all.

    Does it matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephofthenight View Post
    In the bible when its talking about his birth there is the baby lamb...
    Where?

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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Well, as you'll have found from the Wiki link, the date and year are entirely questionable.

    Given the paucity of historical evidence of Jesus' life, it could have been any time at all.

    Does it matter?
    Clearly not - the historicity of the text should have no barring on the religion - it is just recently, since culture textualized, religion became something of a "word of God" instead of a tradition of stories. Strangely enough, even allegorical readings have gone out of fashion - it's as if we have taken the text more seriously as time progressed.

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    Some people place his birth in spring/early summer from clues in one of the gospels but christmas was chosen to coincide with pagan holidays to draw pagans into the religion.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


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    :) Stephweet :) stephofthenight's Avatar
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    Thanks to all who answered

    "Be careful of quotes you find on the internet, they may not always be true" -Abraham Lincon-

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    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    I don't want to be pedantic, but it is not because there were lambs that this birth cannot have taken place in winter. There is actually a lambing season in december... It is also not really important that it is not cold, because this thing takes place in Israël. With an average temperature (now) of about 10 degrees in November/December, I don't think there should be snow like the romantic image tried to suggest with stables covered in it... That is actually a remnant of the mini ice-age in the 19th century where there were even fun fares on the Thames in London as the river was frozen over.

    That is not to say of course that Jesus was really born on Christmas. We celebrate His birth then, but that does not mean he was born literally then. That was the first consensus and obviously it stayed that way. Anyway, does that matter so much?
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Clearly not - the historicity of the text should have no barring on the religion - it is just recently, since culture textualized, religion became something of a "word of God" instead of a tradition of stories. Strangely enough, even allegorical readings have gone out of fashion - it's as if we have taken the text more seriously as time progressed.
    Yes, it is strange. Logic would seem to suggest the opposite evolution of the church, but we have to accept the evidence that literalism is growing while the traditional, metaphorical approach is waning.

    I think it's all about impotence. As the world has shrunk, people feel more impotent in the face of it all and an omnipotent god becomes more important to them. What better way of emphasising a god's omnipotence than having one which negates all of science?

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    Registered User gbrekken's Avatar
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    believe it or not-best evidence I've come across was September11, 3 B.C.

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    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Yes, it is strange. Logic would seem to suggest the opposite evolution of the church, but we have to accept the evidence that literalism is growing while the traditional, metaphorical approach is waning.

    I think it's all about impotence. As the world has shrunk, people feel more impotent in the face of it all and an omnipotent god becomes more important to them. What better way of emphasising a god's omnipotence than having one which negates all of science?
    I'd claim it is simpler to understand... Instead of only bothering children with the literal meaning of 'Jesus made the blind see', they now also start to tell the adults because most of them are not properly educated and we have thrown the towel into the ring because of political correctness. It can never be too diffcult because people might get offended.

    So, this Jesus, he was really special, because he made the blind see, woke one from the dead, made the lame walk, made the lepre healthy again, made a child spring from its mother's womb and really walked on water. Not to mention that he was a magician and turned water into wine, and sent the fishes of lake Galilea straight into the nets of his apostles... As if... (man I still know a lot!)

    It always puzzles me how passionate people ae about this, because, after all, we do not believe medieval stories that mention dragons and such. Why would this person be able to do that then and would there be no chance of metaphor at all, despite the ludicrous things that are mentioned in medieval Roman literature (or do dragons and Medusa exist anyway?) .
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    No, seriously, where in the gospels does this lamb show up? I simply cannot find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    I don't want to be pedantic, but it is not because there were lambs that this birth cannot have taken place in winter.

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    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    God you're right! Only a flock of sheep are mentioned in the gospel of Luke... Pretty amazing. Probably the lambs came in as a sort of symbolic image of foreshadowing Jesus's fate of lamb or so later on?

    So there we are then, even though there could have been lambs in winter, it not even a concern! I just took the poster's original post so excuse the mistake.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    Registered User tailor STATELY's Avatar
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    Christ is the lamb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God;

    also http://jesus.christ.org/1259/why-is-...he-lamb-of-god

    Poetic license has been taken in manger scenes and music with regard to a lamb or lambs nearby: "Do You See What I See" as an example in music.

    From wikipedia on Christmas:
    "The story of Christmas is based on the biblical accounts given in the Gospel of Matthew, namely Matthew 1:18-Matthew 2:12 and the Gospel of Luke, specifically Luke 1:26-Luke 2:40. According to these accounts, Jesus was born to Mary, assisted by her husband Joseph, in the city of Bethlehem. According to popular tradition, the birth took place in a stable, surrounded by farm animals, though neither the stable nor the animals are specifically mentioned in the Biblical accounts. However, a manger is mentioned in Luke 2:7 where it states "She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn." Early iconographic representations of the nativity placed the stable and manger within a cave (located, according to tradition, under the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem)."
    As to a date (whew!) scholars are all over the calendar: March 28, May 20, April 6, November 18, January; and some even quibble about the year: AD 1, BC 1, BC 2, BC 3, BC 4, etc

    From http://www.bible.ca/D-Xmas-story.htm:
    "The exact date of Jesus' birth is a mystery. About the best we can do is to narrow it down to seasons. The Bible does give us one clue. The shepherds were in the fields with their flocks at night when Jesus was born. This clearly indicates that Jesus was born during the warmer seasons. During the coldest months like December or January, the shepherds didn't sleep in the fields but would bring their flocks into corals. There is virtual agreement among scholars that December 25 is not the birth date, not even the month that Jesus was born.

    However some suggest that the whole idea that the flocks where brought into corals during the coldest months, implying the shepherds were not out in the fields, is rejected by some who say the flocks stayed in the fields year round.
    "And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so, was the belief , that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, 'the tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism, on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnaic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover -- that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest. Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak". (Afred Edersheim in The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, p186-187)

    The "lambing season" for sheep is in February in Palestine. Could it be an interesting suggestion that Jesus, being the "lamb of the world" was born at exactly the same time the literal lambs were born. If so then Jesus was born when the lambs were born and he died when the Passover lamb was slaughtered on Nissan 14. Of course this is purely speculative.

    Another speculative argument is that the census that Caesar Augustus took in Luke 2:1, would not have been done during the coldest harshest season. Such a census would require mass migration of large numbers of the population. Unless Augustus deliberately wanted to make life difficult, he would take such a census during the warmer months and certainly not in December.
    tailor

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    Quote Originally Posted by tailor STATELY View Post
    Er, yeah - thanks. I understand the metaphorical Lamb that crops up throughout Christian thought. I was asking about the appearance of an actual lamb in the nativity as related in Luke and Matthew, on the sole basis of which the original poster suggested Jesus may not have been born at Christmas.

    And the answer is, there is no such lamb in the scripture.

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