Gay literature

[OrphanPip]

What other queer lit would you recommend?

Well I already recommended A Boy's Own Story by Edmund White, Maurice by Forster, and Faggots by Kramer.

I guess I could add The City and The Pillar by Gore Vidal, A Single Man by Isherwood and Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin.

Edit: The one by Baldwin being about bisexuality.

Edit2: I find Teleny, which is attributed to Wilde and his circle of friends, to be amusing, but I'm hesitant to recommend it as literature, since it is pretty much well written pornography.

[JBI]

It's amazing how the adds for this site change so quickly - I am now getting all sorts of banners advertising exotic gay cruises - I guess they are probably more fun than Nerdy Online Dating though.

[mortalterror]

It's amazing how the adds for this site change so quickly - I am now getting all sorts of banners advertising exotic gay cruises - I guess they are probably more fun than Nerdy Online Dating though.

Really, 'cause all I've been getting for weeks is Barnes and Noble, and Blackberry adds?

[JBI]

Really, 'cause all I've been getting for weeks is Barnes and Noble, and Blackberry adds?

Perhaps you need to vary what you post more, so you get a wider range of banners, no? As it is, every time I stick a Chinese character somewhere I get Confucius Institute adds. Hell, I'll probably get the adds now for just saying that.

[Jozanny]

I do not read modern gay & lesbian romances, because I do not see the point, though I guess there are some authors I'm missing who push boundaries, though I do have one small press title I ordered by mistake which is a girl on girl crush and forgettable.

I am going to say something controversial, but I believe it to be basically true, and that is, the criminalization and oppression of homosexual behavior created the great literature behind it. We would not have the genius of Henry James if the Victorian era did not have its propriety up its tush, nor the scathing wit of Patricia Highsmith, nor Baldwin's anguish (though I have not tackled his work yet) and so on. It was the heterosexual lid on the bottle that created the subversion, and we lose this as gay and lesbian come within so-called normal parameters--although I don't think human sexuality is ever really a tame topic, in literature or anything else.

[jocky]

Surely the standard in the Arts and Sciences we should be looking for is the quality and not the sexuality of the artist. Is Wilde a better writer because he was gay, or Hemmingway because he was not, ( contoversial ) Do we look at a painting or a book and think about the artist or authors sexualty, and then judge it ? My point being that De Profundis by Wilde is a brilliant literary icon but should not be judged by stereotypes.

[JBI]

Surely the standard in the Arts and Sciences we should be looking for is the quality and not the sexuality of the artist. Is Wilde a better writer because he was gay, or Hemmingway because he was not, ( contoversial ) Do we look at a painting or a book and think about the artist or authors sexualty, and then judge it ? My point being that De Profundis by Wilde is a brilliant literary icon but should not be judged by stereotypes.

You are assuming that we should actually make the valuing of works the prime concern, which I would disagree with - do we actually have a need to establish Wilde as better than Hemingway? That is what I would rather question, instead of discussing sexuality.

[jocky]

You are assuming that we should actually make the valuing of works the prime concern, which I would disagree with - do we actually have a need to establish Wilde as better than Hemingway? That is what I would rather question, instead of discussing sexuality.

Not at all JBI, I thought the thread did have a sexual element but I did not intend to make meaningless comparisons. Why is the valuing of works not the main concern, or is this not the literature thread? Wilde is better than Hemmingway but that is only in my opinion, or is art above individual judgement? I like Poussin, you may not, you may like Claude, but that would show a distinct lack of taste.

[shortstoryfan]

I find this entire thread LOL.

[billl]

I imagined (very possibly incorrectly) that the OP was looking for something that might be written by or about gay people. What their reason would be for it, I don't know, but I can think of two good ones right off the top of my head.

I think it is right to point out that the writers shouldn't be completely pigeon-holed, and that a race, gender, gay/straight shouldn't be the basis for judging a writer's "greatness" or rank. But there are times when a fact about the writer, or some particular aspect of the writing can become relevant to someone.

Unfortunately, I have no recommendations, just chiming in on this side issue (I'm enjoying the discussion, thanks as always, everyone).


PLATO, SOCRATES GAY?

ALSO, I spent a fair amount of time studying Socrates, Plato, Greek Philosophy in general, as well as a single (awesome!) Greek History class. However, the "corrupting the youth" charge against Socrates never interested me--I got the impression that people didn't know exactly what it meant, with some winking about homosexual stuff, others agreeing but thinking it was part of a greater sense of rebellion/corruption that he represented, and others thinking the homosexual angle was flimsy enough to ignore altogether. So I just didn't care, it floated in the back of my mind.

Anyhow, what would it say about homosexuality in Athens at that time if Socrates was in fact being, at the very least, criticized (in many modern interpretations) for having "corrupted the youth" in some homosexual sense? It would seem that this (on its own...) is, as much as anything, evidence that Athens at large didn't approve of whatever the phrase meant. Perhaps it is an accusation of paedophilia?

I understand that there might be more evidence out there, but I always find this "corrupting the youth" quote popping up when Plato and Socrates are held out as examples of how homosexuality was much more common, socially acceptable, etc. back then in Athens. And the fact that the phrase is used against Socrates by the Senate would seem to make it, at best, evidence that homosexuality was far from universally accepted.

[Jozanny]

I never really cared for Wilde (no offense to Neely) but for me that has more to do with his lack of gravitas than his sexual preferences. Dorian Gray is just a parable more than anything else, and the way he uses language doesn't leave much room for genuine characters of substance.

But, as much as JBI likes to challenge the assumptions behind the notion of the literary subset, categories do in fact have some validity, and homo-erotic subversion, radicalism, and political intent is one such category, and does form a body of work, with its own thematic issues.

[DanielBenoit]

ALSO, I spent a fair amount of time studying Socrates, Plato, Greek Philosophy in general, as well as a single (awesome!) Greek History class. However, the "corrupting the youth" charge against Socrates never interested me--I got the impression that people didn't know exactly what it meant, with some winking about homosexual stuff, others agreeing but thinking it was part of a greater sense of rebellion/corruption that he represented, and others thinking the homosexual angle was flimsy enough to ignore altogether. So I just didn't care, it floated in the back of my mind.

Anyhow, what would it say about homosexuality in Athens at that time if Socrates was in fact being, at the very least, criticized (in many modern interpretations) for having "corrupted the youth". It would seem that this (on its own...) is, as much as anything, evidence that Athens at large didn't approve of whatever the phrase meant.

I understand that there might be more evidence out there, but I always find this "corrupting the youth" quote popping up when Plato and Socrates are held out as examples of how homosexuality was much more common, socially acceptable, etc. back then in Athens. And the fact that the phrase is used against Socrates by the Senate would seem to make it, at best, evidence that homosexuality was far from universally accepted.

Ummm, the "corrupting the youth" accusation in Apology had to do with Socrates supposed teaching of atheism and psuedo-polytheism to the youth of Athens. Socrates of course refutes this. If my memory serves me right never is any homosexual act or insident once mentioned or implied.

[JBI]

Ummm, the "corrupting the youth" accusation in Apology had to do with Socrates supposed teaching of atheism and psuedo-polytheism to the youth of Athens. Socrates of course refutes this. If my memory serves me right never is any homosexual act or insident once mentioned or implied.

There is enough proof of homosexuality at the time being a fairly common, and accepted practice, even in a pederastic manner. Just read Xenophon's Symposium.

[jocky]

I never really cared for Wilde (no offense to Neely) but for me that has more to do with his lack of gravitas than his sexual preferences. Dorian Gray is just a parable more than anything else, and the way he uses language doesn't leave much room for genuine characters of substance.

But, as much as JBI likes to challenge the assumptions behind the notion of the literary subset, categories do in fact have some validity, and homo-erotic subversion, radicalism, and political intent is one such category, and does form a body of work, with its own thematic issues.

It is time you read your Stevie Smith, No Categories, please.

[DanielBenoit]

There is enough proof of homosexuality at the time being a fairly common, and accepted practice, even in a pederastic manner. Just read Xenophon's Symposium.

That's what bill was saying, not me. I was just pointing out that the subject of homosexuality does not come up at all in Apology.