Is infidelity wrong?

[soundofmusic]

I couldn't have put it better myself Soundofmusic. You are very wise.

Thank you, Maryd; that means alot coming from such a wise and good person

And that seems easy to you Michael? Try telling a single woman who can walk that you are confined to a wheelchair for life, and see what happens after a while.

I do not recommend it as a way of life, but I'd take kindness over the routine pain of daily loneliness if the former is the best I could do.

I can see Jozannys point here; it is a terrible thing to live with someone you love and cannot express it through physical intimacy. Sometimes the loneliness is almost unbearable. People are vulnerable, they sometimes make selfish choices that are not the best thing for everyone involved.
I don't think Jozanny is saying that this is the first choice one makes; but that sometimes life is very cruel and a person will choose love over sadness.

[African_Love]

I do not see how that is any different than cheating upon a person, the partner is not aware that they are being betrayed, but that does not change the fact that they are being betrayed.

It's different because one deprives someone of future pleasure (if I remember what you're replying to) and the other does not. One is immoral and the other is disrespectful. Betraying someone by breaking an agreement you've voluntariliy and without coercion entered into with them is disrespectful, I just don't think it's immoral, not in this case.

That is just it, the idea of the partner never finding out the truth can really only exist hypothetically, so the argument cannot be applied to real life. Hypothetically cheating may not be immoral, but in the real world is not valid as there is no way to guarantee that no harm will be done to the person.

If it's hypothetical then it's hypothetical. I would still argue that it's morally irresponsible rather than directly immoral.

But it is not strictly doing something to only your body. It is doing something to another's body as well, as to have an affair there must be another person involved. So here is an issue that has not yet been addressed. The harm that is being done to the 2nd party within the affair. Rarely are those truly happy just being nothing more than objects of sex, most have some expectation that someday said person will leave the one they are with for them. So if a person is having an affair, what of the harm to the one they are having the affair with, they are directly having their own future happiness and pleasure denied for they can never have a meaningful relationship with the person whom they are having the affair with, and however wrong they might be in their part within it, they still are emotionally suffering from the affair because of the position they are in.

Circumstances vary, I'm sure. Some 'other men/women' don't want anything more, some do, either way they chose to get into what they did.

adultery also mixes up the paternity issue. It is good for the species.

This was something else, lol. I can't relate to Jozanny's position, believe it or not. I've never accepted the 'life is complicated', 'it just happens' argument because (for all intents and purposes I'll pretend I'm not a determinist), we do choose to behave how we behave despite circumstances. I don't have to do anything I consider to be inappropriate, whether it's kill someone in anger, cheat on my wife or whatever. This argument could be a cop-out for anything.

But isn't it immoral not to tell your spouse and keep something like that from them?

Not if it either a) does not cause them distress or b) deprive them of pleasure/happiness, imo.

You can't justify betrayal and lying.

As far as character is concerned, I agree with you. I don't know why no one seems satisfied with acknowledging that it is disrespectful and 'bad' in that sense. After all, nobody who loves their partner would want to disrespect them, even if it could be morally justified.

Lying to your spouse hurts your spouse.

That just isn't true.

[wessexgirl]

And I personally have no sympathy for people who make the conscious choice to cheat and betray. There is no excuse for it that I will accept.

If you are in a bad relationship you, you handle it like an adult and you get out of it. No one is saying that is easy, but life is not just about making easy decisions that meet with your instant gratification.

Being that having an affair is something that is completely and totally within my control, I can say with complete confidence that I will never do it, no matter what the circumstances.

It is not something that is just going to "happen" to me, it is something of which I would make the choice to decide to do, and it is a choice I will never make for myself, period!

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.

[Dark Muse]

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.

Here! Here!

Good for you for being strong enough not to put up with that nonsense. I completely agree, I think it is ridiculous the excuses people try to come up with to justify to themselves their choice to have an affair with another person. And the fact that so many of them seem to try to make it sound as if they are in fact not responsible for the choice they made.

Life is hard sometimes, but that is never a justification for having an affair.

[Virgil]

Young people also like to see things in black and white, and life really isn't like that.

Thanks for considering me young. Perhaps I never grew up.

Well said! Of course infidelity is wrong, it wrecks lives, and anyone who thinks differently, and that they can justify their selfish behaviour is kidding themselves. I know from bitter experience; my kids no longer have a dad. I will never be convinced that cheating and lying is okay. It's a betrayal of the highest order, the most hurtful thing one person can do to another. I'm tired of seeing people trying to salve their consciences, if they have them, by using the old chestnut, "that's life". It may be some people's lives, but it will never be part of mine, I have too much respect for myself and my family to go along with that bull. I could never behave so despicably as to knowingly inflict hurt on other people for my own gratification. I have my own moral compass, and knew that if such a thing ever happened to me, that would be the end, no questions about it, finito, and it was. His sorry *** was kicked out so fast with all his belongings, that his feet didn't touch the ground. After many years of marriage, I find myself alone, and considerably worse off. Infidelity breaks up families. I have seen many people go through it. It's not just the couple who suffer, the knock-on effects are massive. My life, and that of my kids has changed forever, through no fault of our own, but because there are people out there who see nothing wrong in doing what they do. My daughter is getting married next year, and she has only my side of the family to be there. Her father's side is as good as dead to her. There is no contact with any of his side of the family, so because a couple of selfish people decided they wanted their cake and eat it, many innocent people are affected. We are just one of the many millions of families the world over who have been affected by such selfish, immoral and disrespectful people, but just because the numbers are great, it will never be acceptable behaviour.

I agree with Dark Muse. Hear, hear!!

[Dark Muse]

I can see Jozannys point here; it is a terrible thing to live with someone you love and cannot express it through physical intimacy. Sometimes the loneliness is almost unbearable. People are vulnerable, they sometimes make selfish choices that are not the best thing for everyone involved.
I don't think Jozanny is saying that this is the first choice one makes; but that sometimes life is very cruel and a person will choose love over sadness.

And there are people in the world with disabilities who have meaningful, legitimately, genuine relationships. It is not as if once you are disabled you have to have affairs just to find some form of so called companionship.

It does not matter what your circumstances are in life you still have the responsibility to choose not to act in a reprehensible way that could cause other's pain.

[billl]

I just want to point out that, in African Love's moral framework, it is perfectly legitimate (and NOT immoral) to disrespect another person, even if they deserve one's respect.

As I pointed out a page or two back, this moral framework also implies that peeping-toms and stalkers are not behaving immorally, provided they have taken proper care not to get caught. I also wonder if fondling a sleeping or passed-out drunk would be viewed as moral or morally neutral, according to this framework.

[Jozanny]

Thanks for considering me young. Perhaps I never grew up.

Not now, okay? I know you are basically a decent good hearted sort, but you cannot step into certain life experiences, and if I leave again it will be for good this time. If it is one thing I cannot stand it is that people think they are better than others because of some rule book that really has nothing to do with how people live and breathe.

I am going away for awhile. I haven't been feeling well and for whatever reason I am still trying to believe I can accomplish something for my own satisfaction. I shouldn't be getting upset over threads with the new moral majority on the march.

[1n50mn14]

Absolutely and without question, infidelity is wrong.

This comes from personal experience.

Even if you don't 'know' at the time, with solid, concrete evidence that cheating is going on, you 'know' on some other level. It rises like bile in your throat, until you find out. And you always find out, eventually. At which point it becomes even worse. The logic 'if they never find out, it doesn't hurt them' is complete B.S. That adds a whole new spin on the wrongness of the situation.

I could go on about this for hours and hours, but it's simple.

It's wrong.

No further comment.

[soundofmusic]

And there are people in the world with disabilities who have meaningful, legitimately, genuine relationships. It is not as if once you are disabled you have to have affairs just to find some form of so called companionship.

It does not matter what your circumstances are in life you still have the responsibility to choose not to act in a reprehensible way that could cause other's pain.

Thank you, Dark Muse, for pointing that out. I was writing in the context of someone who lives with a severely disabled person. Of course there are disabled people like Stephen Hawking and Christopher Reeve who maintained their intellect though they were in wheelchairs. There are also people who have brain tumors removed and have the IQ of a child, severe dementia, paranoid schizophrenia so severe that physical intimacy is out of the question. The person who is married to them is "sealed in time"; married on paper with no love or support in their life. They care for the person because they want whats best for them; but are they to waste away for endless years while the medical community keeps their loved one alive.

I am not saying this is the right thing to do; or the thing I would do. I do, however understand the rationale of peoples actions in such cases.

[Emil Miller]

This is the single biggest piece of crap I've heard in a long time.

I'd love to hear the justification for that one, Brian.

Well, as usual, my observation is based on my own experience. I have known several cases where men have been unfaithful to their wives, such as the colleague who told me about her husband's infidelity. When I said that the trouble with the world is that women want a man but men want women she didn't contradict me. Then there is the case of a friend who told me that while he was abroad with a number of other guys from different countries working on the same project, the majority of them had a girlfriend despite being married. A female friend whose husband spent six years working in Japan with infrequent visits home told me that she knew her husband had had other women but she was philosophical about it knowing that men are predatory by nature. On one occasion I was looking at some old photographs with another female acqaintance and she remarked that a woman in one of them had been, and I quote, "...my husband's sweetie." I tactfully refrained from mentioning that I already knew about the affair.
I am surprised that some people on what is a literary forum seem not to have noticed that the philandering male is a stock character in literature. A moment's reflection will show that some societies are polygamous. Why do you think that is? It is also interesting to note that there is no male equivalent of the Harem and that bigamists are always men.
My original post used the words "in general" because I recognise that there are always exceptions to the rule but, notwithstanding the specifc examples I have given, it is the generality that counts.

[blazeofglory]

There are varieties of infidelity and some are mild and others are acute; as humans cannot completely maintain fidelity under circumstances it is not a sin to be infidel.
For instance if a slaves serves his master but the master is so inhumane and treats the servant cruelly and famines the latter, and if the servant becomes an infidel to steal from the master’s granary to stuff his bowel with foods such infidelity on the part of the slave is tolerable in point of fact. There are indeed levels of fidelity and infidelity and here most seem preoccupied with sexual infidelity, and of course this one is a little more serious than the rest I have mentioned heretofore

[isidro]

African Love has obviously never been cheated on since he or she thinks that cheating causes no distress to anyone. I was forced in a marriage and the man would have cheated on me except all the women turned him down.

That is merely disrespectful?

[*Classic*Charm*]

African Love has obviously never been cheated on since he or she thinks that cheating causes no distress to anyone. I was forced in a marriage and the man would have cheated on me except all the women turned him down.

That is merely disrespectful?

Apparently it doesn't cause you distress if you don't know about it

[Dark Muse]

Apparently it doesn't cause you distress if you don't know about it

LOL yes, remember, it is only wrong if you get caught!