Does a Good God exclude the possibility of a Bad World?

[atiguhya padma]

I am trying to imagine an all-compassionate, all-seeing parent watching on as the concentration camps, the Gulags, the Inquisition, the evils of colonialism rage all around him or her, and the ultimate parent shrugging its shoulders and saying to him or herself, oh well, sure Auschwitz is bad.... but it will reap benefits in that people will become more thoughtful and compassionate towards each other and the same for the Gulag, and oh yes, the Inquisition was really a good thing because it inspired various people and groups to move away from the Catholic church etc etc. Now i'm sorry but I find that rather unpalatable and not in any way an advert for god, morality or religion. You might think it is the ultimate in parenting best practice, however, immediate intervention and a stern talking to might have been better. In fact, I'm not sure which is more disturbing a god that can do this or a group of followers who can think this is somehow not only right and justified, but also compassionate in the long run. How anyone can think that an evil means is justified provided we get a good end is beyond me.

Then there are the problems of natural disasters which the all-loving all-compassionate god allows to devastate indiscriminately, annihilating innocent lives in ways that make Hitler and Stalin appear amateurs (and provide spin doctors to try and make him look good while he's at it)

Isidro, its very easy to say all you have said to an amorphous group such as this forum, but I wonder whether you would be prepared to tell a group of holocaust survivors the same?

[JommiL]

Yes. I know. But IF it is the truth, that Satan rules? God gave him that change?

From my point of view; Human i free one now. You can judge, what is wrong or right. For me, it is NOT God´s fault, but human´s. We just choose and this hell is the place that WE created. Not God. There´s no any sense to say that lying, stealing etc. are ok.

From my point, we just should to low our heads, and admit, that our thoughts will NOT rise above out skull.

[isidro]

I speak strictly from my own experience, my dear, which includes abuse as a child, abuse as an adolescent, and marital abuse that caused nearly 850 panic induced seizures and stopped my heart twice while I was pregnant with a second child. It also induced amnesia so I had to relearn to read, write, work and do several other things that most people take for granted. I think I am slightly qualified to discuss pain and suffering with any group and surely many of those who have survived the Holocaust have a broader view than those on an ambiguous forum who have never tasted suffering to a massive degree. I speak of God as someone who has a greater view than us, and I know this for a fact due to a great extent because of what I have gone through. Yes, I would say it to Holocaust survivors but those survivors I have met are the first to try to tell it to me. Pain on a massive scale changes a perspective and I feel fully qualified to discuss it and the divine plan behind it.

[atiguhya padma]

Isidoro,

You say you are "fully qualified to discuss [pain on a massive scale] and the divine plan behind it" even though you earlier confess that you are "slightly qualified to discuss pain and suffering", which I find a little confusing. That confusion increases when you say things like "God [is] someone who has a greater view than us, and I know this for a fact due to a great extent because of what I have gone through". I have known atheists who have suffered as much if not more than you, and who say they know through their own experiences that there is no god. Quite honestly, I don't see why pain, no matter how great or intense, should somehow be a window onto truth. What I think it does do, is concentrate our mental and emotional attention towards refining our beliefs and faith. That is very different to knowing facts about god, about the world we live in and about reality per se. Our most painful experiences teach us to question our pre-conceptions. Sometimes it strengthens them, sometimes it reforms them, sometimes it destroys them.

Tell me Isidoro, do you believe that an evil means is justified as long as it leads to a good result?

Is it fair to indiscriminately cause unwanted pain and suffering to millions of unwitting people just so that future generations may learn something? I find that a despicable idea. And almost everyone would find that a despicable idea if a human being put that into practice on a massive scale. Yet some people seem to think that the idea of a god putting this into practice is morally justifiable. Swap a human being for a god and somehow the morality of it all changes. Yet I cannot help but feel towards a multitude that thinks god is justified in behaving like this, as I would about a multitude that backs a dictator doing evil things to teach us a good lesson. Morality, I would hope, isn't so relative that a change in the agent somehow changes the morality of the act.

[billl]

Morality, I would hope, isn't so relative that a change in the agent somehow changes the morality of the act.

A very good point.

[Michael T]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

The trouble with this is that you are arguing against the argument for the existence of God.

If it’s a bad world, then there is the possibility of a more perfect God that could create the perfect ‘good world’ That would mean that the God who creates a ‘bad world’ is less perfect than a God who creates a perfect ‘good world’ which would mean he can’t be God, who by definition is perfect and would not create something imperfect if he has it in his nature to be perfect, for that would mean he is not perfect.

[gbrekken]

What would be the value of love if not for free will. In this age we have choices to make. Decide with caution, hope, conviction.

[gbrekken]

I'm just starting to catch up on the humor here. I used to be aprofessional *******. I got paid for the words out of my mouth. It cold've also been called diarrhea of the lip. keep me posted on real develpments.

[gbrekken]

I believe it is written somewhere: "the god of this world".

[blazeofglory]

I wonder at things. Why God has created us in the first place? To suffer? Or why do we suffer? I oftentimes think we suffer in order that we cleanse ourselves of the sins committed by us at sometimes.

In fact we are not accountable for all we do. It is the circumstances we will be hemmed in, and of course by accident we will fall into a particular circumstance and the circumstances compel us to behave the way we do in point of fact.

Why does a person become a poacher? The reason is the circumstance he is in demands of him of poaching and he is helpless.

It is really hard to make judgment in point of fact.

[soundofmusic]

I'm just starting to catch up on the humor here. I used to be aprofessional *******. I got paid for the words out of my mouth. It cold've also been called diarrhea of the lip. keep me posted on real develpments.

I may be the only person who doesn't understand the asterix: were you referring to a minister, lawyer, psychiatrist or prostitute?