The Benefits of Celibacy and Chastity

[billl]

If you think that physical intimacy is not pure by definition (ie. if you agree with the way it is often presented in the Western media), then, yes, the project of purifying one's consciousness might require chastity, celibacy, etc. If however, you are capable of experiencing physical intimacy without regarding it as any less pure than breathing, eating, hugging, or any other important life experience, then one can have a pure consciousness while not practicing celibacy.

People that I have shared experiences with, held, and loved have been extremely special to me. It is not very impressive to me when I hear philosophers, mystics, sages, etc. speak more highly of a general love that is everywhere. I don't mean to dismiss that love, but I don't want to be so wise that it's the only love I know.

Just my opinion--and I know it probably isn't right for everyone. Thank goodness we aren't all the same.

[MarkBastable]

Then we are making the same point?

Not quite, no.

It seems to me, from what you've said about celibacy as one element of a range of approaches, attitudes and practices, that it's more like Bran Flakes, as sold on TV.

The shoutline is Bran Flakes are good for you!


But the small print at the bottom of the screen says Bran Flakes may have beneficial effects as part of a healthy, balanced diet coupled with an active exercise regime.


..which may be true, but fails to make clear that if you have a healthy, balanced diet and an active exercise regime, you can skip the Bran Flakes.

I guess we'll agree to differ on that one.

Billl touches upon a much more important point - which is that you seem to have got the idea that spirituality is pure and that the physical is, well, less pure - dirty. Lusty, to use your word. Who told you that, and why do you believe them?

[NikolaiI]

Yesterday after coming here I realize I wasted my time and probably yours. After realizing this I felt utterly miserable. Why does everything have to be an argument, a fight?

I have an urge to post but considering how miserable I felt yesterday after replying to you, Mark, I am not going to. I realized it was a waste of time to discuss with you, of mine and yours too, it was not productive. This is my last visit to this thread.

[MarkBastable]

Yesterday after coming here I realize I wasted my time and probably yours. After realizing this I felt utterly miserable. Why does everything have to be an argument, a fight?

I have an urge to post but considering how miserable I felt yesterday after replying to you, Mark, I am not going to. I realized it was a waste of time to discuss with you, of mine and yours too, it was not productive. This is my last visit to this thread.

An argument is not a fight, nor is it a waste of time. It's engagement with other human beings - which is one of the joys of the physical, social, perceptible world.

If it makes you miserable to have to put your opinions up against other opinions expressed by human beings who think you are mistaken, then I can kinda see why you might tend towards the contemplative and removed life.

[kiki1982]

Exactly, I don't recall her name either, but one in particular was definitely his lover for years. I don't think they just held hands or kissed.

Just to clear the Beethoven-discussion up:

There were 4 and a fifth one possibly, unidentified:

Giuglietta Giuccardi whom he asked for her hand in marriage when he was still young and her music teacher. He was refused on the grounds of being a poor artist (I think the father kicked himself later at the thought...). He wrote the Moonlight-Sonata in mourning of her.

Marie Erdödi, a slightly crippled woman of Hungarian descent. The relationship ended somehow, I can't recall why. I think it was because she did not believe her family would approve, although it was not clear why that was an issue, because after all she had her own fortune...

Josephine von Deym (I think née von Brunswick?), the widow of count (?) von Deym. He was considerably older tan she when they married, and she was left with three or four children. Like Marie Erdödi, her family(-in-law) would never approve of a marriage. So the relaionship was abandoned eventually, although the two were on very close terms.

Alledgedly, Beethoven would have been in love with his sister-in-law Johanna van Beethoven, wife of his brother Johann (?). He sent for the most expensive doctor of Vienna at some point when she was ill, although the two never had a good relationship, taking Johanna and Johann's son Karl away after the death of his father. Scholars have argued that Beethoven in fact wanted to marry her, but that his brother Johann usurped his place. Beethoven (Ludiwg that is) would have blamed her and his brother for ever.

And then there is his 'immortal beloved' whom he wrote two letters to from Karlsbad 'in pencil, [hers]'. Several women have been listed to be the one, but no-one has been able to come up with the definite answer.

You can see why my avatar is that mgnificent composer...

On topic:

There are definite advantages to sex, scientifically acknowledged (endorfines (against headache!), relaxing of the muscles amongst a lot of others) and I suppose there are people who find it rather boring and tiring.

I don't think that the greater artist/brain is the one who does it the most or the least. It is probably the one who feels selfconfident in what he does and as such, has sex when he feels like it (à la Shakespeare, Bach with his 8 or how many (?) children, Mozart (in love permanently with his wife), Beethoven with his mistresses, not to mention Goethe and Schiller).

Other than that, I do believe it is possible t be celibate and chaste. I do not suppose theDalai Lama has a wife and yet he seems to be more than happy.

[Drkshadow03]

Oh well, you don't have to pay for all you want... there are those who give services free of charge. They are like artists... just for the sake of the art is why they do what they do and give what they give...

Hmm, why did you immediately take Scher's reference as being only about prostitution. Even consensual sex where you don't pay for the actual sex and it's "free", you still have to buy dinner, pay for some activity, and buy condoms. Or in the case of women paying, buy dinner, buy flowers, pay for some activity, and purchase a diaphragm or prescription birth control pills. Even if you go dutch, you still have to pay for your own meal presumably in a nicer restaurant you'd go to if you were alone. Sex generally costs money somewhere down the road.

[prendrelemick]

Of all sexual deviations, Celibacy is the most extreme.

[Jozanny]

Of all sexual deviations, Celibacy is the most extreme.

I don't know about that, especially when you read up on sexual identity disorders, but I have come to believe that there is no real established sexual norm, or to use your word, all sex is a kind of deviation.

[Nightshade]

The only excuse I have for posting this is I am on a serious sugar high but whatever, I read somthing in the quaran the other day about celibecy, now unless I completly misunderstood and the transaltion was faulty ( I did double read the arbic and english to be sure) the message was ( and it is adressed to people in a marraiage all sex outside marraiage being a major NO NO) don't take vows of celibcey. But if they had already taken them ( the quran was revealed in stages so it adressed things that were already happening) then they have to complete the vow, breaking a vow being a big deal, but if they had already discoverd that they are not able to then it isnt a mortal sin or the end of the world ( and I think maybe fast a few days as penalty for breaking a vowor making one you couldnt keep not sure on this I have trouble with all the technicall lawy bits.) .
Also in other parts there is something about sex being the right of both parteners in a marriage and a gift from God and being 'estranged' or constitatly refusing to have sex with your partner is more than grounds for either one to divorce the other.

[blazeofglory]

Celibacy or chastity are indeed virtues all religions hold with importance.

In fact sex is a biological need and there are certain glands that make people sexually active. We must not deal with the issue with emotional and religious attributes.

Of course we can chastise ourselves and self-control can act as a way of life. But in the long run we will fail and popes have failed. We know they are indulging in homosexuality.

We must not be hypocrites. People who are oversexed of course live miserably but who are disciplined are better off in life.

I do not go against sex or nor go against chastity. Buddhism strikes the Middle Path. Extremity is what Buddhism goes against.

[Pendragon]

I think the problems with Catholic priests kind of prove the problems with celibacy-- the oath is willing but the flesh still has the desires...

[kiki1982]

And what with Bouddhist monks? As far as I know they are also celibate...

Paedophelia has nothing to do with being deprived of sexual desire, or at least not for adults. So those priest do not turn to abusing children because they are deprived of sex in generl, they turn to abusing children because they prefer children and they would have done that too if they had had a wife, children, nephews and nieces. The 'condition' is similar to homosexuality (the desire for the same sex), with the exception that homosexuality is accepted and paedophelia is not (and should never be because it harms the subject).

Oscar Wilde was still condemned to a prison sentence for his homosexuality, whereas now it is deemed natural.

There are people in the world who are perfectly able to live without sex, but it's not given too all of us.

And do not start slagging me off for putting homosexuality and paedophelia in the same sentence, because sexual preference is an objective thing, whether it is deemed morally wrong or not.

[NikolaiI]

And what with Bouddhist monks? As far as I know they are also celibate...

Yes, all the ones (3 or 4) I have known were!

There are people in the world who are perfectly able to live without sex, but it's not given too all of us.

I believe it is largely a matter of what we are taught, and what we are exposed to.

[kiki1982]

Bouddhist monks should all be, because in order to reach the nirvana (sublime state of well-being) they should undo themselves of all earthly feelings and goals. I.e.: no money, no clothing apart from their well-known orange-red dress, no food-gathering or earning money to buy it (they live on gifts, one meal a day sometimes), no family (feelings of love to earthly beings).

If they are detached like that, they reach a state of only praying, meditation and sublime happiness; time to reach their divine self. Or so is the theory.

There is something about it that in the past most men who did not marry there was something wrong with (read: gay and unwillig to have sex and children with a wife). Whether they were celibate is another matter. Some were because they did not want to risk going to prison, others just did their thing and hoped that their cover would never be blown.

I don't know if it is what we are taught or exposed to that teaches us to have incontrollable urges or not.
The debate around the mentally ill/handicapped (who live without partner, like Down-syndrome men and women for example) and sex (with prostitues or boy/girlfriends they meet), is a good indication that we would never teach them to have those urges, but that they do have them. So much that sometimes prostitutes are called in to solve the 'problem' (if it is one).

I think rather the 'teaching' lies in te fact that we are taught that, biologically, it is impossible to live without sex or urges (chastity). I don't think it is totally impossible, as is illustrated with those thousands of Bouddhist monks. I cannot imagine them having gay orgies inside the convent.

So here is the paradox: mentally ill/handicapped people are not supposed to have any urges whatsoever (are supposed to be chaste and celibate), while the rest of us is supposed to have urges that are incontrollable because otherise is not natural. Yet we are all people... I suppose it is a matter of willing to be celibate or not and getting detatched from that kind of feelings or not.

[Nightshade]

sexual preference is an objective thing

This is true, I read a report on a study a while back anbout hormones and chemical balances and how they affect sexual prefeances ( not sure of the accuracy or whatever) but the jist of it was I think something along the lines of if you have a bit more of this or that decides your sexual perferance and lack or extra of something or other leads to people being Asexual.